Amanda Mack Transcript

Amanda Mack Transcript

Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, a baking podcast from Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and the author of three baking books. Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.

Today, I'm talking all things hand pies with Amanda Mack, the baker and CEO of Crust by Mack in Baltimore. Amanda has built quite a following for these perfect little handheld pies, from her sweet, fruit-filled hand pies, to the savory ones stuffed with fillings like spinach and cheese. Amanda and I talk about how to get that fab flaky crust, what she learned from her beloved grandmother, and how things are going with her bakery build-out. Her new location in Baltimore sounds like it's going to be very special, and I can't wait to visit once it's open. Amanda is the best, so stay tuned for our conversation.

Today's show is presented by Le Creuset and California Prunes. The Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference is right around the corner, folks, so I hope you've gotten your tickets. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women in and around the world of food and drink in the U.S. It's a beautiful day of connection and conversation. It's taking place Saturday, April 15th at Center415 in Manhattan. I'll be there, Amanda will be there, and lots of other folks. Come network, try beautiful food and drink, and hear from some incredible speakers. Learn more and get your tickets at cherrybombe.com.

Here's a word about Le Creuset. For nearly a century, Le Creuset has been creating joy in the kitchen and beyond as the first in colorful cookware, the finest in quality and design, and the favorite of generations of cooks and bakers. Here, on She's My Cherry Pie, there's a reason I always ask our guests about the tools and equipment they rely on. You can have the best ingredients around and be one of the world's top culinary talents, but you also need cookware and bakeware you can depend on. Professionally, I've relied on Le Creuset for years, when I'm developing recipes, testing new treats for my cookbooks, or making something precise, like caramel. And personally, I use my Le Creuset pieces all the time when cooking for myself or my family. If you need a special gift for any upcoming college graduations or weddings, you can't go wrong with a classic Le Creuset Dutch Oven, which you can use for almost everything. You can make individual molten chocolate cakes or berry crumbles in them, or even use them for your mise en place. Head over to lecreuset.com, to browse their gorgeous colors, find other gift ideas, and snag some recipes.

Let's chat with today's guest. Amanda, so happy to have you here on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk hand pies with you and more.

Amanda Mack:
Yes, yes. So excited to be here.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yay. I wanted to dig a little deeper into your story, and I thought we'd begin with what it means to be grandmother-taught, because when you describe yourself, you don't describe yourself as a self-taught baker. You describe yourself as a grandmother-taught baker, which I'm-

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
... obsessed with.

Amanda Mack:
Well, she definitely gets all the credit and the glory. My grandmother has been baking since I was... before I was born, actually. A lot of my fondest memories are of her in the kitchen and us in the kitchen, and she's just someone who was very intentional about creating a moment for people through food.

So, she taught me everything that I know, even though she didn't share her recipes necessarily, because she's real tight on that. You're not getting the exclusives. You have to find your own way. But she really is good at walking you through the process, showing you how to make something yours, how to change your recipe and make it your own and add your own spin on things.

I remember watching the Rachael Ray Show with her and Contessa's Kitchen [Barefoot Contessa] and all those things on Food Network and just having a good time and her writing down the recipes. So, I really learned a lot of the process through her.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I know, I read that you would watch Martha with her as well on the-

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
... Food Network.

Amanda Mack:
Oh my gosh, yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
And she would have a little pad and a little pen, because I'm sure it was maybe before you could even find recipes online or whether you whatever. And she would write down the recipes.

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely. And figure out a way to make it her own and just elaborate. And we would just go to the market, and she would have that list with her, which was really exciting. Going to the market and actually shopping from a list from something that we saw on TV, it's like, "Oh yeah, Martha Stewart told us to get this." It was a whole-

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.

Amanda Mack:
...thing. So, yeah, I find a lot of joy in that. That's why a lot of my recipes now are handwritten. I might type it up, but I have a lot of paper in my kitchen.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Amanda Mack:
Things stuck on the refrigerator, on the cabinets, on the stove. I mean, there are things everywhere.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I love that. So, when you're developing a recipe, some of us put it onto a computer, let's say, and then even take the computer in the kitchen and make changes.

Amanda Mack:
Right.

Jessie Sheehan:
You're old school.

Amanda Mack:
Right.

Jessie Sheehan:
You've got paper and pen.

Amanda Mack:
Oh, no. Yes. I'm very old school. And it's so funny because a lot of the recipes for the bakery, that's how they started. I mean, I literally have a sheet of paper, and it's marked up. There's things crossed out. You can literally see the process. And that's something that was also big for me because when I was young, I struggled a lot with math, being dyslexic, and just having a hard time and things taking twice as long to get through. It was really important for me to see the process, visually.

So, when I'm doing recipes, a lot of the time I'm writing. And it's okay if I make a mistake. It's okay if I need to change it. For me, I never go back and erase those things. I keep that sheet, and I look back and see what I actually changed, because it does show how just a few grams of something adds so much value and texture and different things to a recipe. You get to see how little changes make a big difference. So, that is something that I also really loved about baking, the process, and seeing how math plays into that and overcoming the challenge of not necessarily being great at math and finding a strength in baking. So that was something that was...Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you kind of mentioned this before, but just to go back to it, I love that she wouldn't share her recipes with you. Tell me about that.

Amanda Mack:
She is tight on the recipes. Even to this day, you are not getting this. She's just very secretive when it comes to it. You can watch her make it, and she'll even say like, and she calls me Mandy, she's like, "Mandy, even if I give you this recipe, it's not going to taste like mine. It's just not." And I'm just like, "Wow."

She's right. It is something different. It is something different when she's making it with her hands, whatever's coming off of her, that soul, that love, that intentionality. You can definitely taste it. And she's been making carrot cakes at the bakery. It's literally called Grandma's Carrot Cake. And people come, and they are there until they're not. They're flying. First thing in the morning, they're sold out.

Jessie Sheehan:
And does she write down the recipes, Amanda, or they're in her head?

Amanda Mack:
Yeah. She writes down her recipes, but I think that she's really great at also memorizing, and that's something that I still struggle with to this day. As a professional baker, it's really hard for me to remember all of the details. I keep that paper handy. I'm writing it on my arm. I'm writing it somewhere. I need it, and she's just effortless.

Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe the carrot cake that she's so famous for?

Amanda Mack:
There's pecans. There are raisins, carrots. She's very particular. She sent me out, when the bakery first opened, she was sending me to the store to get the groceries, and she was very specific. I had to get whole carrots, not baby carrots, not pre-peeled carrots. I had to get the pecans. I had to get regular raisins, not golden raisins, because that was a thing.

And she cut everything up by hand. The raisins, she diced. I didn't even know a raisin could be diced. She's dicing the raisins. She's chopping the pecans. She's peeling and hand-shredding the carrots. Oh, and that cream cheese frosting. I don't know how she does that. I don't know what the ratio is, but every time... And she never measures. She's never measuring the stuff. It just goes in the bowl. And I'm just amazed at the consistency, the quality. It's like I strive, everyday I'm striving, to live up to a, "Good job, Mandy. That was good."

Jessie Sheehan:
All right. I want to jump into chatting about the bakery because you have this amazing Crust by Mack Bakery in Baltimore, and I know it's in transition.

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Maybe moving into a new space. Could you tell us a little bit about the bakery and the transition and how it might be different?

Amanda Mack:
Yes. So, the first location, which was in Hampden, 453 square feet. That is the size of the bakery. You would think, "Impossible." You would think, "How is anyone making all of these things from this teeny, tiny kitchen?" But it's something I've been doing my whole life. I was not afraid of it. I was not worried about how I would get things done. I knew I would get them done because it reminded me of my grandmother's kitchen.

So, we had a lot of fun and a lot of great times in that kitchen, but I knew, "Okay, I need more." Lines out the door, sold out at 12:00 p.m. It wasn't enough. So, we looked for a space that, of course, was bigger, but definitely had some character to it. I'm very big on nostalgia and storytelling and making sure that things mean something to me. So, we were looking at a location that seemed like it was amazing. Unfortunately, it took a lot of time to build out. So, the location that we originally planned on moving into and that we had been developing all of this time on Preston Street, just a matter of weeks ago, so you're actually hearing it here first, we are no longer moving into that location. And now we're moving into a God-sent location.

And I say this because, living in Baltimore, born and raised here, to have an opportunity to be literally in the heart of Baltimore, the new bakery is going to be at the Inner Harbor, at Harborplace, waterfront views, indoor seating, outdoor seating, almost 4,000 square feet. I am just like, "What? How? How did this happen? Thank you for this happening."

It is just nostalgia defined, because what it does is take something that was so precious to me and so reminiscent of Baltimore, like the Inner Harbor, the water, all of the things downtown. And now, I'm not just... It's not just a part of the story, it's a part of my story. And I get to create something so beautiful, so many more memories, that I get to share and pass on to my children. And we're actually a part of the experience. And we're right there at the harbor. It still hasn't settled in, but we're moving in, and we're having a party on Pie Day.

Jessie Sheehan:
I'm hoping that in this new location, you are still going to have hand pies.

Amanda Mack:
Oh, yes. Even more.

Jessie Sheehan:
Is the menu going to change a lot, do you think?

Amanda Mack:
So, the menu, it's not necessarily going to change a lot. So, we'll have a lot of the same things that we had, but it will expand. We will be expanding on the menu because we knew that when we moved, we wanted to operate more like a bakery café, and not just a regular bakery.

This will give us a chance to include some of those things like macaroni and cheese, which we're calling the macaroni pie. We'll have, of course, the crab pie. We'll have our spinach pies. We'll have a lot of different things. Hand pies will definitely be on the menu in heavy rotation. But we'll have other things, like breads, focaccia, yeasted rolls, cornbread, all those things. It's just like you pulling up to your family's house. Is it a cookout? We don't know.

Jessie Sheehan:
All right. So, now, we're going to go deep on hand pies. When you were little, did your grandma make you hand pies? Were you inspired to put them on the menu because of her?

Amanda Mack:
My grandmother always made pies. She never made hand pies and I could never eat a whole pie. For me, it was just like the construction of the pies. I loved apple pie. I love sweet potato pie. But for me, I just wanted more. I'm a crust girl. Pizza's my thing. If I could have just a little bit of filling and more crust, that's me.

So, I knew I wanted to make something inspired by my grandmother, but different. I wanted it to be my own thing, and that was my lane, a hand pie. And it was double crust. It was something that was like a no-brainer for me. And I love that they were, to me, more on the rustic side because I love galette. I love free-form things because they, to me, have a lot more character. And I'm not really big on ‘it has to be so beautiful.’ I think that everything tells its own story, and as it's going through the oven and the processes, I look for those things because it makes them very unique to me.

Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

Thank you to California Prunes for sponsoring this episode of She's My Cherry Pie. It's a funny coincidence that California Prunes is our sponsor because I love prunes. Last year, my doctor told me I should eat six a day for healthy bones, and I've been hooked ever since. Prunes are also good for your heart and your gut, and they're loaded with nutrients like vitamin K, dietary fiber, potassium, and antioxidants. And moreover, they're delicious. They're 100% my go-to smart snack.

Snacking aside, I didn't realize how versatile California Prunes are for cooking and baking, but it makes perfect sense. They're sweet but complex with a rich, jammy flavor that compliments so many ingredients from chocolate to cheese. You can use chopped California Prunes in baked goods like muffins and scones, the same way you would any other dried fruit. California Prunes or a lush and healthy addition to any of these treats. You can also make prune purée, which is prunes and water blended together, and swap that into certain recipes, in place of eggs or oil, or to reduce the amount of sugar. For more on prune purée and great recipes that include prunes, head over to californiaprunes.org.

Now, back to our guest. So, first things first, let's talk about the dough for the hand pies. Is the dough for the hand pies the same as you're going to use for any pie in the bakery?

Amanda Mack:
Yes. If I'm using a sweeter dough, because I don't really use a lot of sugar, but I do kind of lend a little bit more spice if I'm doing a more savory dough. Right? I might use Maldon sea salt flakes instead of just a regular salt, because I want it to be coarser and to lend more through the dough. I want the flavor to be a little bit bolder, but the recipe is basically the same. Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Great. Good to know. And it's not grandma's because she wouldn't share-

Amanda Mack:
No.

Jessie Sheehan:
...with you.

Amanda Mack:
She would never.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, first things first, with this recipe, you're going to cut up your butter. And you like-

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
...to use a European style butter here?

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm big on-

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.

Amanda Mack:
...the more fat, the better for me. I'm like team butter. Team buttermilk. That's a thing. That's a thing for me. But yeah. I love the high-fats because they yield a more tender crust.

Jessie Sheehan:
I always joke that fat is my favorite food. So, yes, I appreciate a high-fat butter too. And you are going to cut that butter into pieces. And then I love this little tip. You then put those pieces on a plate, and you stick that in the freezer.

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely. Yes. Because the colder the ingredients are, the better. Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. And then when you cut that butter, I like to use a bench scraper.

Amanda Mack:
Yes, me too. I love the bench scraper. Isn't it so easy? I mean,  it gets perfect little cubes, less mess, less tension on your hand. I love it.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. I keep telling people, "Bench scraper is the way to go with butter." They're like, "What about a chef’s knife?" I'm like, "Bench scraper."

Amanda Mack:
Yes, yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, so that butter goes into the freezer, so it'll be extra cold when it's time-

Amanda Mack:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
...to incorporate it. And you're going to pulse flour and salt.

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
And I just wanted, is there a favorite all-purpose flour that you guys are using in the bakery?

Amanda Mack:
I love King Arthur. It's just very consistent. King Arthur and Gold Medal are my favorites. I like Gold Medal because my grandmother's been using it forever, in everything.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then there's kosher salt in this. Is that the salt that you're turning to always when you're baking?

Amanda Mack:
I always use kosher salt. And sometimes, like I said, I might use the Maldon sea salt flakes and pulse that because the flavor is just very intense. That's something when I'm definitely doing savory, and I want it to pop, I'll use those. But, always kosher for me.

Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. Because sometimes, I know people develop recipes with fine sea salt-

Amanda Mack:
Mm-hmm.

Jessie Sheehan:
...table salt, but I always develop with kosher as well.

Amanda Mack:
Yep.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, you're going to kind of pulse this salt and flour together in a food processor. Do you ever do this by hand or do you ever-

Amanda Mack:
Yes, I do it by hand a lot, actually. But I feel like when you're developing recipes, you do want to give people the thing that's most consistent. And I know with hands, because everyone's hands are different sizes, and you can't quite get, "Oh, how many times am I supposed to do this?" I feel like the food processor is a sure thing, but I love doing it with my hands all the time.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, at this point, you'll remove the butter from the freezer. You're going to add it to the processor, and you're going to pulse. And I love, at least in this recipe that's published, that you say, "30 to 35 quick, little pulses." And what are we looking for? What do you want it to look like after the pulses?

Amanda Mack:
You want the butter to be incorporated, but you don't want to only see butter. You want to see nice chunks and sizes. You want it to be nice and coated evenly. You don't want to just see yellow in there. That means, to me, you want to make sure you're coating it more with the flour. So, just nice, a variation of sizes of the different butter and making sure that the butter is actually still coated with the flour.

Jessie Sheehan:
And this is, maybe it would be different obviously in a food processor that you're using in a bakery, which is probably larger than one we have at home, but should we be scraping the bowl of the food processor, moving things around?

Amanda Mack:
Yes. That's a great question. I would say absolutely. For me, it just makes sure that everything is incorporated all at one time. It's nothing wrong with... I know it takes a little bit more time, but consistency really is key. So, sometimes, taking that top off and using a rubber spatula because it might be a chunk that's stuck to the side that you might not be able to get. So, just pushing those things to the middle. Yes, consistency is key.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love this ingredient. You drizzle in some buttermilk.

Amanda Mack:
Ooh, that's my favorite.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That's kind of unusual for pie dough. And I first of all want to know if there's a favorite brand, and maybe it's a teeny bit different nationally depending on where you live, but I'd love to know a favorite brand. Is it full fat? And then what made you choose buttermilk for your pie dough, rather than water?

Amanda Mack:
This was a big thing for me when I started to develop the recipe because for me, I wanted something that was very light. And I think that water is just something that is not going to change the texture of your pie dough. Right? But when you're adding the buttermilk, it also makes it rise a little bit. Something happens differently with the buttermilk that when you are baking the crust, you definitely taste the difference.

And of course, I've done this just with the pie crust alone, just baked it side by side and saw the difference. It gives you a little bit more height, because I don't know if it's the air from the fat that's getting into it, but it's more tender as well. I love the flavor, it gives it a little bit of tang. It definitely created something that, for me, I was like, "I'm always doing this." It's a slight difference to me that made the biggest change.

Jessie Sheehan:
You did say it's a full fat buttermilk that you like to use?

Amanda Mack:
Full fat. Yep. Full fat. And a lot of times I just make my own, because I'm already using those ingredients too. It's important for me to reduce waste and stuff like that. So, I'm already using whole milk for a lot of things, so I just get some good lemons, squeeze it in there, and just let it just froth up really good, especially during times of shortages and things are... Inflation. Oh my gosh, things are so expensive. Making your own definitely saves you money. But a good full fat buttermilk at the market, you can't go wrong.

Jessie Sheehan:
And is that, just in case people don't know, are you doing a ratio of one cup whole milk to a tablespoon of lemon juice or even vinegar, right?

Amanda Mack:
Oh, yes. Yep. Yep. You also do it with vinegar.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And then the longer you let that sit, the more curdly and buttermilky it gets. Right?

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
I almost think people should make it first and then go through the recipes. Because if you make it in the moment, it doesn't get quite as curdly.

Amanda Mack:
It does not. Yeah. I usually try to make it 30 minutes before. And, like you said, that kind of gives you time to get through your processes because by that time, you'll get a nice curdle. Yeah. So, I usually make it 30 minutes before. Right before I'm starting on my mise [en place], I'll just kind of go out and get that buttermilk going.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. I love it. And then, it's in the mixer. You've drizzled in your buttermilk. What are we looking for? Kind of rough ball? What should we see?

Amanda Mack:
Just a rough ball, because once you start pressing the dough together with your hands, you'll start loosening up that butter, warming it up, and it'll come together quickly. So, you don't want it to be overly saturated, which is why I'm like, "Drizzle it in," because it's harder to come back if you over-moisturize your dough. But you're looking for just a nice rough ball that comes together when you pull it together with your hands.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, it's almost like you won't see it in a ball shape, obviously, in the processor, but you can kind of squeeze a little bit with your hand-

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
...and you'll be able to see, "Okay, it's ready."

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely. And in the process, you will start to see clumps starting to stick together, which is how you'll know that it's ready. You'll start to see in your mixer bowl. There'll be little sections that are like, oh, more gravitated toward this side. So, that is a good indicator.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. And then, you'll turn your dough out on a lightly floured surface. Are you shaping it into a disc? There's no kneading or anything?

Amanda Mack:
No. Just shaping it. Yep. Just pulling it together.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then wrap it, chill it for an hour or overnight, or you said you can freeze up to three months. And then, while the dough is resting in the fridge, we're going to make the filling.

This particular recipe is a hand pie filled with cranberries, which I love. So, I think it kind of makes sense that you have some orange in it. And you begin with a vegetable peeler, peeling the orange peel. Tell us about that and tell us what we need to avoid.

Amanda Mack:
You want to make sure you're washing your orange first. You want to dry it with the cloth, a napkin or cloth, and you want to peel around it. You don't want to peel so much that it goes to the flesh of the orange. You want to get the skin, and those juices that you'll start to see pop out, that is what you're looking for to go into your mixture, because those oils in the skin are just going to be so fragrant, so flavorful. And you'll see them come through really nicely once the heat gets into it.

So, that is what you're looking for. You don't want to peel too deep. You don't want any flesh in it. You just want a nice, even layer of that skin of that orange.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, you're peeling the skin of the orange, and you're thinly slicing it lengthwise, and then cutting it into these little tiny pieces. Then, you're going to cut the orange and use some of that juice in a little saucepan with your cranberries?

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
And have we already added the little pieces of zest too, or we're saving those for a little longer? Do those go in now?

Amanda Mack:
Those will go in now and they'll also go in later as well. So, I've kind of reserved some.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. You're going to add your cranberries to this little saucepan of the zest and the juice. And I know that you've said that you could substitute with frozen cherries. You would just need to up the amount of corn starch. And a question for you, can you kind of substitute any fruit, and do you do that in the summer? Tell us some of the other fruits that you substitute.

Amanda Mack:
And I love going with the frozen route because it works well with the liquid ratio. So, definitely cherries, even strawberries. Oh, that's probably one of my favorite ones. The strawberry is so good. It does lend more juices, which is why I said, up the cornstarch, but it is so... It's almost like jammy-filled. That jam is so good. So, I love the strawberries. I love the cherries. And also blueberries. It kind of reminds me like blueberry pie meets cobbler. Delicious.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. That all sounds amazing. So, you add your cranberries or your cherries or any of the other fruits. You add some granulated sugar, some vanilla. Do you have a special vanilla that you guys use in the bakery?

Amanda Mack:
I use vanilla bean paste. I love it. I use a vanilla bean paste. And I'm a McCormick girl because I'm Baltimore. But yeah, definitely, if I'm using regular vanilla, it's McCormick, but I love a vanilla bean paste. It's so good, with seeds, with seeds.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. The paste, and it's so beautiful, the paste with the seeds in baked goods. And you're stirring well. You're bringing the fruit, the berries, or the cranberries, and the orange to a boil, stirring until the sugar dissolves, and then you just simmer kind of until the cranberries or the other fruit collapses?

Amanda Mack:
Yes, absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And probably let's out juice?

Amanda Mack:
Yes. You want to start to see the sauce. You want it to start making its own juices. You want to start breaking open. You'll see they're not as whole. That's the sweet spot.

Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome. And then, you're going to stir in some corn starch. And like you said, you'll do more cornstarch if we're doing a fruit otherwise... Because cranberries don't need as much cornstarch to hold together.

And with this cornstarch and a little bit of water, you're making something called a slurry. Can you explain to people what a slurry is and why we just don't put that cornstarch straight in by itself?

Amanda Mack:
Yeah, so you want to make this slurry. You want it to thicken. You want to build the consistency before you're adding it to whatever sauce you're making because you don't want to get lumps. You don't want those pieces to be floating around in there. You want to mix it really nicely and well, because once you add that slurry to your filling, it all holds together really nicely and really beautifully, and it just makes your sauce just creamier and more consistent.

When you try to just add the cornstarch directly to it, you're going to have lumps. It's going to be inconsistent. Some parts of your filling might be thicker than others. So you want to just do your slurry because you want it to all come together nicely and evenly.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, you add your slurry. We'll simmer until the mixture looks thick and shiny and glossy, which sounds so delicious and beautiful. And then, scrape into a bowl and kind of stir occasionally but let cool to room temp before you're going to fill up your adorable little pies. Should it be cold when it goes into those little pies or just room temperature?

Amanda Mack:
Usually, I will let it come down and then probably pop it in the fridge, just because you do not want to compromise the integrity of your crust. If it's even just a little bit still warm, the filling going onto the crust, it's already melting your butter incorporated into your crust. And that may cause for just a soggier crust, inconsistencies with your baking times. It may burn a little faster.

So, the cooler your filling is, the better and more consistent your pie will come out because it's not already started cooking, because that's basically what's happening when you put hot filling onto cold dough.

Jessie Sheehan:
I also imagine that if it's colder, it's going to be less liquidy, so you're not going to have to struggle when you put on the top of your little hand pie, you're not going to have to worry about juice oozing out because it's going to be colder. And so it'll be a little bit easier to work with that. That's actually a great tip in general for trying to work with cold ingredients when you're doing something like assembling hand pies. Now you're going to roll out your dough until it's about a quarter-inch thick. And do you have a favorite rolling pin that you use in the bakery or that you use at home?

Amanda Mack:
I use my grandmother's. I still have the rolling pin that she gave me. It has the handles, and I'm just pushing it back and forth. I love that one. I do like a French rolling pin too, the heavier ones, especially because it feels like it does take off a lot of the work on your hands and shoulders. It gives you a little bit more control because it's kind of weighted. So, I do like that. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And do you have any tips? I know people struggle with rolling out pie dough. Can it handle a lot of flour on your bench or should you be careful?

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely. Yep. It can definitely handle a lot of flour. You don't want to over-flour, but it can handle a lot of flour. And it can handle pressure. But you do want to be delicate. If you're rolling, if you're applying a lot of pressure, it means that your dough might be just too cold to work with.

You want to look for those signs, making sure it is cool to the touch, but if you press it, you do have some give. That's how you know it's ready to roll out. If you touch it, if you can knock on it like a door, it's not ready. If you're struggling, it's not ready. It really should be an ease in the process. So, you look for those visual cues when you're baking and when you're assembling things, because if it doesn't feel right, it may mean that something's not right. And it's just kind of taking your time and being a little patient. Baking requires a lot of patience.

Jessie Sheehan:
And, so, maybe even taking it out of the fridge and letting it rest a little bit before you start. And I love that tip, Amanda, of your finger pressing into the dough. I think that's so smart, because, of course, I'm always the one trying to roll out my, essentially, as hard as my door, like knocking on my door. And I'm like, "Why isn't it working?" So I love that. I love that tip.

And then, you're going to use a three-inch in diameter cookie cutter. Do you have a favorite brand that you like, either at home or in the bakery?

Amanda Mack:
You know what? I actually do love the Target line by Joanna [Gaines]. I love those. I picked those up right from Target. They come in a cluster, so you get a lot of different sizes, and they have a nice sturdy handle. I actually took a couple of the ones that I had from home to the bakery when we first opened and was using those for three months before I actually bought some. But I love those. They had lots of different sizes and they're very sturdy.

Jessie Sheehan:
Once you have cut out your rounds, you're going to transfer them to your baking sheet. Tell me about the kind of parchment paper that you like to put on your baking sheets.

Amanda Mack:
I do like to use the unbleached baking sheets. I know when we get to the bakery we use those. They come in a huge box. I love the unbleached baking sheets or the Reynolds parchment, even the ones with the lines, those little grid on it. Those are a lot of fun, when you're trying to figure out spacing and recipe-testing because you can see how far you need to put something away from the other, especially with cookies and things like that.

But yeah, most things that you find in a grocery store, you'd be surprised that a lot of professional bakers are really spoiled with a lot of normal ingredients and local things. It's just something that you've become accustomed to, and you go into your shop using it because that's what you're used to doing.

Jessie Sheehan:
I know that you're going to put your little rounds that you've rolled out onto a half-sheet pan. Is there a kind of half-sheet pan that you guys like, or probably there are full-sheet pans in the bakery, but is there a kind of pan that you guys like, either with sides or without sides?

Amanda Mack:
I love to use half-sheets because you can yield a smaller batch. And I have a little bit more control. If I'm doing a lot, of course, I use a full-sheet pan with edges. I like even sometimes to use a baking pan, like a half-a-sheet cake pan, when I'm doing things because I don't really know how big is this going to get?

So, I try to use different vessels for different things. For my hand pies, I'm definitely using half-sheets with edges because they give you just a lot of consistency, and you just know what you're going to get every time.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. And then you are going to chill your dough rounds. What I also like is you're going to chill your scraps and re-roll those. Do those get tough or they can afford to be re-rolled?

Amanda Mack:
So, they can afford to be re-rolled once. I like to incorporate the scraps right into my second roll. I don't do it any more than that because they do tend to be tougher. So, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but I would tend to use the scraps for something different. I might make a whole completely different batch of something, and most of the time, I would save those scraps for just a tart because I would have the rise and the layers, and it'll be sturdy enough for whatever I'm putting on top. So, definitely there's a use for it.

Jessie Sheehan:
And that's kind of cool, just so people understand, with pie dough, because of the butter that's in that pie dough, if you cut up the dough and layer it on top of each other, those scraps, you get something much flakier than just rolling out that first time, which is so interesting.

So, the rounds have chilled, and you kind of brush the edges of those with an egg. And then this, I think, is really important for people to understand. You're just putting, I think it's almost like one-and-a-half teaspoons or some very small amount, of the filling. Tell people-

Amanda Mack:
Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
...I know, for myself, I always want to put more, and it's always a mistake.

Amanda Mack:
Yes. You do not want to overcrowd your crust because your egg wash is the perimeter that you're putting around to seal the crust together. And you want to give that even an extra layer of protection because you don't want your filling to spread out too far because it will burst open. And that will definitely change the texture of your pie because now air is getting into your crust, and you want it to stay nice and sealed.

So, you don't want to overcrowd your crust. You want it to bake nice and evenly, and you want them to stay together. And overfilling, that means that, eventually, it's going to burst open and the shapes will be uneven. And it just won't look as beautiful if you're... Definitely, if you're putting them on a table or gifting them to someone, you want them to stay together. So, less is more.

Jessie Sheehan:
You said before that patience is so important in baking. And then also that less is more is important in baking. And I feel like, sadly, I'm the opposite of both of those things. I'm really impatient, and I'm always like, "No, no, no. More is more." I'm taking all of your lessons to heart. I want you to know.

You brush your edges. You put a rounded teaspoon, let's say, a teaspoon-and-a-half in the center. You put your other piece of dough on top, which has also been brushed with egg, and then you kind of crimp your edges with a fork.

Amanda Mack:
Yes, absolutely. That seals the deal, crimp those edges.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, into the freezer. What does the freezer at this point do?

Amanda Mack:
So, the freezer, at this point, just gives it an extra chill right before you put it back into the oven, because you have to think, during your assembly, you've had that bottom crust out. You've worked through your whole pan. Now you put on your top crust. So, you just want to re-cool your ingredients, so that your bake to is true, and you'll get a nice sturdy bottom crust and a nice tender bake all around.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. And you're heating the oven to 400. And I just have to ask, do you ever fry these cuties, rather than-

Amanda Mack:
Oh my gosh, I love a fried hand pie. Now, that is something. Fried apple hand pies with the cinnamon sugar. Mmm.

Jessie Sheehan:
You're going to cut some tiny little slits in the now chilled hand pies on the top, to let out steam, et cetera. And maybe, also, do you do the slits, so that you can see when the filling is bubbling?

Amanda Mack:
I do. That was probably the first thing because I overstuffed mine at first too. And I'm like, "How do you know?" Because when you're baking a regular pie, you look for that bubbling filling. That's how you know, like, "Okay, she's almost ready." So yeah, definitely cut a little slit in the top will allow you to see some bubbles coming through, and it'll allow you to see how your filling is baking up inside your pie.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. You're going to brush some of that reserved egg on top because that'll give them a nice kind of glossy, bronzed color. And then you sprinkle with raw sugar, like a turbinado sugar?

Amanda Mack:
A turbinado, mm-hmm.

Jessie Sheehan:
That I learned, when I worked in a bakery, to put that on muffins, to put that on quick breads, to put it on everything to give it sparkle and shine and then a little texture. So good.

And then, you're baking until your crusts are golden brown, and the filling is bubbling, about 16 to 18 minutes. You're transferring them to a wire rack. Do you ever serve them warm in the bakery or have they always-

Amanda Mack:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my.

Amanda Mack:
I love it. To me, that's the only kind of way I want it. I want you to experience it a few minutes out of the oven because all of your flavors are there. I mean, you get all the smells, all the textures. To me, that is the best way to eat them. Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
Love that. And then, although so many of us, me included, love a sweet filling, can you please tell us about your world-famous crab hand pies and what goes into that crab? I assume the assembly is the same.

Amanda Mack:
The assembly is the same. Yep. Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us what is in that, and people have to get on Instagram and look at Amanda's account and look at the Crust by Mack. So, you can see, you have photographs of the inside of the-

Amanda Mack:
The inside. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Tell me about the crab filling.

Amanda Mack:
Okay. So, think like crab dip, but better. Think more crab, right? Think quality crab, Maryland Blue Crab. It really is the best of the best. You have Maryland Jumbo Lump, Super Lump. You have cream cheese, Parmesan, worcestershire, salt, Old Bay. That's the key. The Old Bay is key. Lots of Old Bay. We actually have Old Bay in our filling and also in our crust. So, those flavors come through. It, literally, as you're baking it, smells like somebody is steaming crabs. It is delicious.

And all of those things just warmed up inside of this buttermilk Old Bay crust. And you break it open, and it just falls out. I mean, the crab meat, the lumps are there. The cream is there. The cheese is there. The flavor is there.

Jessie Sheehan:
Do you ever just eat the crab filling by itself?

Amanda Mack:
I have. My mother does. So, my mom actually is one of the people who helped develop this recipe. Well, I actually kind of stole it from her a little bit. I was allergic to crabs until five years ago. I could not eat crabs at all. And she made this infamous crab dip that everybody loved, everybody raved about. It was at all the parties. And she had a catering company, and it was one of her top sellers. And once I was able to eat crabs, immediately, she made me a whole big bowl.

And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." And I said, "Ma, we got to put this in a pie." And we developed the recipe, and it's been no turning back. Now, I'm getting crabs every week.

Jessie Sheehan:
And also another savory filling, which sounds so, so delicious. Can you tell us about the spinach, onion, Parm-

Amanda Mack:
Oh, yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
...filling?

Amanda Mack:
That is my favorite. So, I'm team savory when it comes to pies. I'm team savory. I'm a savory girl. And the spinach pie is probably one of my favorites. Very creamy and delicious. It has spinach, Parmesan. Please, if you're making this at home, get the block of Parmesan that you shred at home. I'm telling you, it's going to make a world of a difference. Shred your own cheese. I'm telling you.

Good Parmesan, cream cheese, heavy cream. The spices are so funny because, when I was making this, my grandmother would like, "What are you doing, Mandy? Why are you putting cinnamon and nutmeg into this spinach pie?" It brings out the flavor so much. It's something I actually learned when I was managing a bakery cafe in Reservoir Hill. It was Ma's, we called her Ma, she was like the OG [original] in the kitchen, and she had all of these wise things that she was teaching us what to do. And I learned that from her, and I expanded on it. So, cinnamon and nutmeg and brown sugar actually goes into this recipe, that's so savory you would not even be able to tell. But it brings out the rest of the flavors so well.

Jessie Sheehan:
Sometimes, in baking, what people don't understand is that sugar is like ... In small amounts, is a seasoning in and of itself. So, putting a little bit of sugar in your spinach pie doesn't make it sweet. It pops the flavor, the same way salt can do that, or vanilla pops flavors. It's so cool that way.

Amanda Mack:
And then, caramelizing those onions. They are brown and beautiful and delicious. They are melting. That's how supple they are, once you cook those things. I get all of these ingredients, nice and warm in the pot, and I actually put them like in a mixer for a second and mix them all together. I chop up the spinach really fine and put it in there, and it creates a filling that comes together so beautifully, that you can literally scoop like a cookie dough, onto the crust. And when it bakes, that is when it starts to just ... It transforms into something else. It's delicious.

Jessie Sheehan:
Just so I understand, you are cooking the spinach. Right? Along with-

Amanda Mack:
Oh, yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Mack:
Uh-huh. Yes, yes, yes. But very lightly cooked. I'm cooking the spinach. I just put it in for a few minutes. Once the cream cheese and the Parmesan and the heavy cream and the onions are all in that pan, simmering together, I just toss in the spinach, so it'll wilt just a little bit, because once it goes in the oven, it's also going to bake.

Jessie Sheehan:
Amanda, I just want to thank you so much for chatting hand pies with me today. And I just wanted to tell you that you are my cherry pie.

Amanda Mack:
Aww. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. And you know I love you.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love you.

Amanda Mack:
I always love seeing you online, and it's just an honor to be talking with you today.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, well, I can't wait to see you in real life, in the new Crust by Mack.

Amanda Mack:
Thanks so much, Jessie.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Le Creuset and California Prunes for sponsoring today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on your favorite podcast platform and tell your baking buddies about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studios in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.