Laurie Woolever:
It's complicated. And this is something that I learned from Tony. If there's something I don't know, I say that. I don't pretend to be the official historian forever and ever. I can answer questions and I can point people to more information but I don't want to be the owner of his legacy because he was so much bigger than me, so much bigger than any one person.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstands Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Few people knew the world of Anthony Bourdain, as well as writer Laurie Woolever, as his longtime assistant or lieutenant, as he called her, and co-author, Laurie was enmeshed in the details of his life and work.
When the beloved chef and journalist died in 2018, Laurie lost a boss, a friend and a trusted collaborator. As she grieved with the rest of the world, Laurie set about finishing a project that she and Anthony had just barely kicked off, a book that would share insider details on the places he had loved and visited over the years. That book, World Travel: An Irreverent Guide is out now. And it's a tribute to the man who celebrated the richness of the world around us, mostly through the lens of food.
I'm so honored that Laurie joins us today to talk about her life, her career, and of course, Anthony Bourdain. Today's show is presented by Homemade, the podcast from the folks at Allrecipes. It's been said that a recipe is a story that ends with a good meal. The Homemade podcast celebrates this notion, serving up beloved dishes and the stories behind them.
Join Martie Duncan who was a finalist on the show Next Food Network Star as she talks with celebrated cooks, including Guy Fieri, Patti LaBelle, and our beloved Barefoot Contessa, Ina Garten about the memories and traditions behind their favorite foods. Listen to Homemade on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.
The latest guest on homemade is the powerhouse Ayesha Curry. On top of being an entrepreneur, restaurateur, and a mom, Ayesha is the co-founder of Eat. Learn. Play. An organization committed to ensuring children have nutritious food, a quality education, and a safe place for sports and activities. Martie chats with Ayesha about her latest book, The Full Plate and shares ideas for quick flavor-forward meals. Don't miss Ayesha and Martie in conversation. Give a listen to Homemade.
Our other sponsor today is Cakebread Cellars, the Napa Valley Winery. Since the founding of Cakebread Cellars in 1973, they have set out to create quality wines that pair best with good food and good company, and that is my favorite kind of wine. Some suggested sips for now, how about Cakebread Cellars 2020 Vin de Porche Rose from Anderson Valley? A favorite of mine and of Cakebread Cellars winemaker Stephanie Jacobs. Vin de Porche, no accent required, is a traditional dry rose, and true to its name, it's meant to be enjoyed on the porch or patio, says Stephanie. Pinot Noir grapes give this wine delicate aromas of strawberry and bright refreshing acidity.
Or there's the 2018 Chardonnay Reserve. According to Stephanie, for every vintage of Cakebread Cellars Chardonnay Reserve, they select the finest lots from their four estate vineyards in the Carneros region of Napa Valley. Stephanie describes this wine as the quintessential expression of cool climate Carneros Chardonnay with concentrated flavors of creamy golden apple, ripe peach, and baking spices supported by pitch perfect acidity. To learn more about Cakebread Cellars, visit cakebread.com and ask for Cakebread Cellars at your favorite wine shop or look for it on your favorite delivery service.
We've got a little housekeeping from Cherry Bombe HQ. Don't miss the latest issue of Cherry Bombe magazine, which is all about the life and legacy of Julia Child. Yes, we have a print magazine and it is a beautiful magazine, if I say so myself. The Julia issue is filled with some never-before-seen archival photos, classic Julia recipes, and essays about Julia's enduring influence. This issue is a fresh take on a big personality who continues to resonate culturally and culinarily. Visit cherrybombe.com to snag your copy or to subscribe. Enjoy today's interview.
Kerry Diamond:
Laurie Woolever, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
We have a lot to talk about. You have a brand new book that's out right now called World Travel: An Irreverent Guide and it's a fantastic book.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You were working on a biography of Anthony Bourdain that will be out in the fall, but before we talk about all that, I want to talk about you. Because I do feel like you get a little lost in the world of Anthony Bourdain, which is understandable. He was larger than life, but you have had a fascinating career. And like I mentioned, you are a terrific writer.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And have a great take on things as folks that listen to your podcast. So, I wanted to start at the very beginning, Laurie. Where are you from?
Laurie Woolever:
I am from a small village called Chittenango, which is outside of Syracuse. So upstate, kind of right in the center of the state. And yeah, that's where I grew up. It's the birthplace of L. Frank Baum, who wrote The Wizard of Oz. That's probably the most famous thing about it. But it's very small, little town where I grew up.
Kerry Diamond:
You called it a village. Was it really a village?
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it's incorporated as a village.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. So, it's in a larger town, but yeah, the Village of Chittenango. I think it's about a population 5,000 or so.
Kerry Diamond:
And I know there were stops in between, but you went to culinary school?
Laurie Woolever:
I did.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you want to be a chef or a writer or combined them both?
Laurie Woolever:
I guess both. I always wanted to be a writer. And when I got out of college, I felt, well, I don't actually know anything. I had my academic training, which was in natural resources management and I figured out pretty quickly that that wasn't what I wanted to do with my career. And I knew how to cook a little bit, just sort of self-taught from cookbooks by...
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, wait. I have to drag you back.
Laurie Woolever:
Sure.
Kerry Diamond:
So, you went to Cornell, which you didn't even mention. So, you're not bragging about going to an Ivy League school. And what was that major?
Laurie Woolever:
So, it was in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. And it was, I think, largely designed for people who were going to work for New York State or for the federal government on some level, managing state parks, managing wildlife populations, working with hunters and fishermen or working with municipalities to set ordinances. I mean, very important, but very dry work.
Laurie Woolever:
And I was not, by any stretch a scientist. I chose that major because I liked camping and going to music festivals, and I liked being around hippies.
Kerry Diamond:
Literally, that's how you picked your major?
Laurie Woolever:
More or less, yeah. I actually started out in communications because I wanted to be a writer. And I quickly was, it was much more about PR, and again, about sort of messaging for the agricultural field. And I thought, this is not what I want to do. I might as well do this other thing where all the cool kids are. Maybe I'll get some rides to some dead shows, we'd hook up, and that will be really cool.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you a hippie back in the day?
Laurie Woolever:
I was.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow, I had no idea.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I went to college at SUNY Plattsburgh. I applied to Cornell, I did not get in. But I went to SUNY Plattsburgh, and I was shocked as a kid from New York City, because everybody was a hippie, except me and my three friends.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it was a, I don't know, a time and a place thing.
Kerry Diamond:
It was, if you weren't into the dead and smoking pot, you were pretty lost.
Laurie Woolever:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see up there so far north up there too. It's all about being outdoors. And so, this was what I studied. And it was fine. I mean, I learned some things but I was, not by any stretch a scientist. I struggled with chemistry, I struggled with math. But I loved the ethics part of it and the philosophy part of it.
And I went right to work at Brooklyn Botanic Garden, thinking I would do kind of an urban gardening thing. And again, it was like, "Oh, I hate this." I love gardening. I love being outdoors and doing that kind of stuff, but not as a job, making very little money and sweating my ass off, mowing lawns and pitching straw, and just picking up garbage on Flatbush Avenue. It wasn't where I wanted to be as a recent college graduate who had just moved to New York City.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you want to be in the city though? Had that been a goal?
Laurie Woolever:
Yes, definitely. So, it was good to have a job to arrive to. I rented an apartment over the phone, sight unseen. Also, not great. It was in a basement in Kensington. I felt like I was in the suburbs of Chicago or something. I don't even feel like I'm living in New York, and I'm basically working on a farm. I'm not doing New York right here. So, I moved into the East Village and got a job as a cook with a family who were just looking for someone to cook very simple, low fat food.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you qualified for that job?
Laurie Woolever:
Not really. No, I mean, I didn't think so. But I think what was important to them was that I had been to college and that I could hear and understand what they wanted, which was plain pasta and sauce from a jar and steamed vegetables and broiled chicken. This was mid-90s, still very much about the low-fat thing. So, there were a lot of SnackWell's. There were a lot of every iteration of fat free sweets. It was very much a time capsule. They had hired somebody before me, who was a classically trained French chef, and they had to fire her because she was like, "I'm not going to not use butter." And that was not what they wanted out of their cooks.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so funny.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, so I did that. But I wanted to write. I was taking classes already, sort of, continuing ed classes at NYU or the New School to continue writing. And I thought, "Well, let me try and make a go of this cooking thing." And then I'll have a subject matter. I'll have some facility with it. And then I can also use those skills to actually support myself because the dream of supporting oneself as a writer is, it is very difficult. So, I went to cooking school.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any restaurant experience?
Laurie Woolever:
At that point? I had been a bus girl in the best restaurant in Chittenango, which was called Kopp's Canteen Family Restaurant. And it was very good. And so, I spent some time as a bus girl, and that was really the extent of it. Oh, actually, that's not true. The summer before college, I worked at the golf club in the next town over and I ran the hotdog stand on the ninth hole.
Kerry Diamond:
We have that in common.
Laurie Woolever:
Oh.
Kerry Diamond:
In high school, I worked on a hotdog truck.
Laurie Woolever:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Before, hot dog trucks were cool, sadly.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. So, I mean, I was cooking hot dogs on a grill. Again, dressed like a hippie and my sleazebag boss was like, "You know, if you were in a bikini, you'll probably get bigger tips."
Kerry Diamond:
No.
Laurie Woolever:
And I'm like, "I'll stick to my very modest Lands' End tank suit and my crystals and my Teva sandals, thank you very much.
Kerry Diamond:
It's gross.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it was gross, but very in keeping with the restaurant business.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, yeah. As you would come to learn as we all would come to learn.
Laurie Woolever:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. So, you decide to go to culinary school.
Laurie Woolever:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
What happened next?
Laurie Woolever:
So, I went to French Culinary Institute here in Manhattan and that was a six-month program. And like many things that I tried, at first, I was like, "Oh, I hate this too." I think what I realized is I love cooking and I knew that I wasn't just constitutionally wasn't cut out to be a restaurant cook, but that I was willing to get this training, and if I had to do it for six months to kind of get my foot in the door and establish some credibility, I would do it. But I always knew that this was not the life I wanted for myself. I respect it. I admire it. Part of me wanted it because it was fun and exhilarating, but I just knew emotionally, physically, constitutionally, this was not where I wanted to hang my hat.
So, as soon as I graduated from culinary school, I did a couple of trails. At that time, this was 1998-99, they were paying, maybe $8 an hour. That was probably the top rate for an entry level cook. And it was shift pay and no benefits. And just the way that we know the restaurant business was, and in some ways, continues to be.
I did a couple of trails. I didn't love anything. And then I interviewed to be Mario Batali's assistant. And I think I was the only person who interviewed because at that time, he just wasn't quite the known quantity that he became. He did have a show on the Food Network, but the Food Network wasn't then what it became either, it was still pretty niche.
So, I interviewed, I said the right things that impressed him and I was willing to take the very low salary, and I got the job. And I did that for three and a half years.
Kerry Diamond:
I forgot you worked for Mario.
Laurie Woolever:
Mm-hmm, for quite a long time. Yeah, which was a real education in everything. Restaurants, cooking, wine, Italy, travel, business, press, and media. This was six months after Babbo had opened. They had already gotten this great, New York Times, I think, three-star review. And they were on track to win the James Beard Best New Restaurant award in 1999. So, it was this incredibly exciting time to be at arguably, the hottest restaurant in New York for a while with this very up-and-coming chef and people who had come from Gramercy Tavern. A lot of them were from Po and from Joe Bastianich's restaurants.
And so, people who were really excited about hospitality, doing this new thing working at the top of their game. I mean, I felt very, very lucky to be there.
Kerry Diamond:
And you worked on Mario's cookbook, right?
Laurie Woolever:
I did. So, the first one that I worked on was called Holiday Food, which was just a little kind of maybe, I don't know, 65 recipe Christmas book that was fun, and a good sort of intro project. And then, really the bulk of my time there was working on the Babbo Cookbook, which was published shortly before I was done working there. And that was an incredible education in all of the things that come together to make a cookbook.
Kerry Diamond:
What are some of the things you learned? Cookbooks are hard.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, especially restaurant cookbooks. And that was definitely the paradigm at that time. The things that were getting published and getting a lot of notice for restaurant cookbooks. And I think, I don't know how many of them hold up. I think it's very difficult. It's just two different styles of cooking, restaurant cooking and home cooking. And I think we tried our best to make these recipes work and be accessible. And I've heard good things that people still like the cookbook. I'm sure it's got a lot of flaws that I'd rather not revisit at this time.
I learned the process of talking to chefs and cooks, and they have this Kitchen Bible. It has different names in different restaurants, but most restaurants, I believe, still have a binder with the recipes. And so, I learned a lot about scaling down and making substitutions and how to, there were some cases where it was just real dumb to make a caramel on the stovetop, just to caramelize a head of fennel, when it's like, you can just do that in the oven.
So, all of that process of making something work for a home kitchen, all of the work, all of the back and forth that goes on between a publisher and an author. The whole process of choosing a photographer, of setting all of that up, all the work, and all of the time and effort and waste that goes into a restaurant photoshoot for a book. All the many, many people. I mean, there's always generally one name or maybe two on the cover of a book, but truly the hugely collaborative process of putting something like that together. That was all new to me, and very exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
And that, if I remember correctly, served as your introduction to Anthony Bourdain.
Laurie Woolever:
That's right. That's right. So, in the time that I was working for Mario, Tony wrote and published Kitchen Confidential, and he and Mario became friends just by virtue of being kind of in this same business and same level of celebrity in New York.
Laurie Woolever:
And so, when it came time for me to leave... When I stopped working for Mario, I gave him a very long notice. I wanted to really leave in a very positive way. So, he knew I was leaving for like a year. And at some point, Tony asked him if he knew anyone who could help him with his book. His first cookbook, Anthony Bourdain's Les Halles Cookbook, he was looking for someone to do recipe editing and testing, like I had done for the Babbo book. And so, Mario very generously introduced us. And so, that's how I first got to know Tony was by, he hired me to help out with that book.
Kerry Diamond:
Why were you leaving Mario? What was your plan professionally?
Laurie Woolever:
I didn't have a strong plan. I just, I was really tired. And I could see that, I couldn't, the path that was available to me wasn't one that I wanted. I could either stay an assistant for a long time, which was starting to become very exhausting. And I felt I was starting to age out of that particular type of assistant job. He offered me a path into management and the restaurants which didn't appeal to me. I had no front of the house experience.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't see you as wanting to be a restaurant manager.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it just didn't make sense for me. And I just felt like, "Okay, well, I think my time is done here." And I really wanted to be a writer, and I had started writing freelance, food and travel pieces for various outlets, and I wanted to have more time and energy to devote to that. But I didn't have a real game plan as far as, "How will I support myself?"
And what I ended up doing was, working as a private cook and picking up catering gigs, and just kind of patching stuff together and going into a significant amount of debt at the same time.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh no.
Laurie Woolever:
Because it was not that easy just to make money.
Kerry Diamond:
You have a son.
Laurie Woolever:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
When did you have your baby?
Laurie Woolever:
He was born much later. He was born in 2008.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Laurie Woolever:
So, I was unmarried. And then in that period of time, met my now ex-husband, and got married and had a baby but...
Kerry Diamond:
So, we can cover that?
Laurie Woolever:
Sure. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, we have a few years to go before we get to that. When did you work at Wine Spectator?
Laurie Woolever:
So that was, I started in 2006. I had been working at Art Culinaire magazine before that, which was a great experience. But I was ready to start working in Manhattan again, and just kind of have a closer to home kind of thing. I was commuting four hours a day to get back and forth to Morristown, New Jersey, and that gets a little old. So, I started in 2006, and I was there full time until 2009. And then, I continued on as a contributing editor until 2014.
Kerry Diamond:
And how did wine become a particular subject of expertise for you?
Laurie Woolever:
I don't know that it ever did. I think I got a real general broad education in wine from working there certainly. Everyone, when they first start at the company, takes an intro wine course, off premises. The company pays for you to go and it's a series of evenings for a couple of weeks. And that was great. That really was a jumpstart. Because I really didn't know much about wine, except that I really like to drink it. And I learned a fair bit about Italian wine from working with Mario, but I needed a more broad and comprehensive education.
Laurie Woolever:
So, there were a couple of tracks at Wine Spectator. I think you could really focus in with the hopes of becoming a taster or someone who had a tasting beat. And that wasn't really interesting to me. I was more of a generalist, and most of what I wrote and edited involved food and recipes and one in food pairings. So that was a track that I was comfortable with.
Laurie Woolever:
But I did, just by being there, I mean, you'd be crazy not to learn as much as you can, while you're there. There's just such an amazing opportunity to learn about, read about and taste a lot of great stuff. Although I will say, I worked on the website and there was a real divide between web and print. Web had its own floor. And so, a lot of wines obviously would come in for the editors to taste. And every couple of weeks or whatever, there would be a giveaway of wines. And the stuff that made it down to the web floor was like, "Here's some Merlot from Idaho. It's really good.”
Laurie Woolever:
We did not get our hands on the top shelf stuff, understandably. It was definitely a thing you had to earn to kind of be invited to the better tastings. The one tasting that the web staff always was obligated to attend was the Beaujolais Nouveau tasting, which is fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Why are you laughing?
Laurie Woolever:
Well, it was very clear...
Kerry Diamond:
... where you stood.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. The senior editors had no interest in tasting the Beaujolais Nouveau. Some of it was good and some of it was not.
Kerry Diamond:
I forgot to apologize to the winegrowers of Idaho.
Laurie Woolever:
Sorry. Sorry.
Kerry Diamond:
So, if there are any of you out there who work at a winery in Idaho...
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. I'm sure there's some great stuff. I mean, there's wine made in all 50 states of this country and a lot of it is probably a lot better than we all give it credit for.
Kerry Diamond:
I've tried a lot of regional wines in my day. Did you watch Schitts Creek?
Laurie Woolever:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my God. The winery episodes, so funny.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
I just finished that series.
Laurie Woolever:
Oh, so good.
Kerry Diamond:
And I feel like my best friends moved across the country.
Laurie Woolever:
Yes, it was very, very sad ending, but you can always just start back again.
Kerry Diamond:
That's true. That's true. Okay. So Bourdain gets in touch or Mario connects you to work on the Les Halles cookbook? What did that involve?
Laurie Woolever:
So, that was, again, working with the chefs and the cooks at the restaurant, mostly, from a remote standpoint, a lot of email. They would send me the kitchen recipe. And I would scale it down and sometimes make some adjustments just to make it more practical for the home cook. But Tony really wanted it to be a bistro cookbook. Something that you could, if you had your own similar place in another part of the country, you could pick it up and get a lot of great ideas and replicate the stuff.
Kerry Diamond:
So, he wanted the book to be for restaurant people. He wasn't looking for it to be the ultimate bistro cookbook for the home chef.
Laurie Woolever:
Well, I think it was important that it be executable by a home cook, but he didn't want it sort of softened on the edges in any way. I mean, he was, there's great stories about him. It's printed on this very rough stock, which apparently the photographer was very unhappy about because it doesn't, it wasn't the style at that time, and now I think it is a little more. The cover is made out of butcher paper. And his idea was that he wanted it to get greasy in the kitchen. He wanted it to feel like a cookbook that you would touch with your hands and that would really soak up all the stains and whatever the sauce splashes from your kitchen.
So, I think in that way, he didn't want it to be like, "Well, here's the sweet gentle housewife version of whatever it is." I mean, there are some challenging recipes in there. There's a cassoulet, there's a tripe dish, things that take a couple of days. And then there are some much simpler salads and steaks and things that are sort of ala menu, but it's very true to the food that they were serving at Les Halles.
Kerry Diamond:
Is there anything you make from that cookbook, to this day?
Laurie Woolever:
The roast chicken. It's just, it's totally foolproof. If I'm feeling really ambitious, I'll do the french fries, because that's a great recipe. But it's a mess to make that fries at home.
Kerry Diamond:
That's super, duper ambitious. I would never even try that. What's special about the roast chicken?
Laurie Woolever:
Well, I mean the writing around it is really funny, the head notes, and Tony wrote all of those head notes. I mean, that's 100% him. He talks about how you don't really need to truss it. You can just have, there's this easy little thing where you just poke a hole in the skin and tuck the legs in and he wrote this whole funny thing about it. It's sort of undignified looking. And there's a temperature change, which I think a lot of recipes don't have. I think it starts out, you blast it, and then slow it down to sort of not burn or not dry out the breast, but just very, very simple. It's got a ton of butter under the skin. It's delicious. It makes its own kind of beautiful pan sauce. And now, especially not having him around, it makes me feel a little bit closer to him to make that recipe.
Kerry Diamond:
Was he famous at that time? I mean, Kitchen Confidential had come out and it was such a big deal.
Laurie Woolever:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd say he was famous, but not certainly at the level of fame that he achieved later in his life. Cook's Tour at that point, I think had been on for one or two seasons. And I think, maybe he had just published The Cook's Tour book with sort of a companion guide. And also, a book called Typhoid Mary, which was sort of, it's a very little fanfare, but it's a great book. I started reading it actually right at the beginning of the pandemic, because it's about pandemic illness and infectious disease in New York. And it's short and really, really interesting. He was famous, but I think that the level of events he was doing, the types of work he was doing was still at a different level of fame than he later achieved.
Kerry Diamond:
He wasn't sharing meals with presidents and other heads of state.
Laurie Woolever:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
What was it about him or you that you two clicked?
Laurie Woolever:
That's a good question. I mean, we only met in person probably twice in the whole process of working on the Les Halles book. I think, coming from having worked for Mario, I think there was just a built-in kind of trust, and I think that's the way he operated. In the restaurant world, if a trusted chef friend sent him a cook, he would know, all right, that guy's good, because that guy recommended him. So, I think he's trusted Mario and seeing that I had worked for Mario for three and a half years, that I could be up to the task. And I think, I did good work. I hit my deadlines and I asked a lot of questions and I think I helped make him look good.
Laurie Woolever:
So, for me a very, very fruitful partnership. And being able to work from home, not having to go into an office, that allowed me to do all the other things I was doing to try and keep my ship afloat. He never said no. If I said, "You know, I need to buy this, that, or the other thing." He helped me source ingredients through the restaurant, so I wasn't having to run around too much. He let me buy the equipment that I needed and I didn't take advantage of it. But he just was like, "Whatever you need to make this a successful book, you've got it." So, I was really pleased, because that's not always the case.
Kerry Diamond:
And did he ask you to keep working with him after that?
Laurie Woolever:
No, it was very much understood that it was limited, that this was a project thing. So, I never thought I would work with him again. I just thought that was a great experience. I'm glad to know him. I think once in a while, I would send him an e-mail. I was supposed to go to Vietnam in 2004, 2005, and I asked him for some advice, and which he gladly gave me, but, no, I just figured we would just be sort of, he would just be somebody that I could use as a reference.
And then actually in 2007, he asked me to help him out with a traveling event, because his assistant at that time was pregnant and couldn't travel. So, I did just as a one off, go out to Bozeman, Montana, and met him there. And he had done a couple of events before I got there. And then he needed help doing an in-house dinner for the university football coach or something. I don't know, it was a big series of events. And he wanted a second pair of hands. And I was very happy to do that.
Kerry Diamond:
And what happened after that?
Laurie Woolever:
So then, I went back to working for Wine Spectator and I had just gotten married. It's funny, Tony and I got married around the same time, and we had kids not too far apart. So, we sort of had this point of connection around being newlyweds with kids, even though our ages are pretty far apart.
So, I went back to work for Wine Spectator, I got married, I had my kid. And then at some point, I realized I don't want to do this. I don't want to be a full-time editor anymore. It was very, very difficult to go back and forth to the city, pumping at work and taking bags of breast milk on the subway, just all of this sort of logistical nightmares of trying to keep everything, all the balls in the air.
So, I started looking for a job that would give me some more flexibility. I reached out to Tony and a number of other people and said, "I'm looking for part time work. Just keep me in mind. Here's my skills. I'm willing to do whatever I can find. I just don't want to work full time anymore." Right away, he wrote back and said, "You know, my assistant, Beth is actually leaving. I know you're probably overqualified at this point, but would you ever consider being my assistant?" And I was just like, "Yeah, of course."
I don't think I would have been just anyone's assistant. And I did feel a little strange to go from being an editor back down to being an assistant, but it was Tony, and I knew that he would be a great boss. I knew it would potentially bring some great opportunities my way. And it allowed me to be home and not have to be sort of schlepping around and running myself ragged while having an infant to take care of.
Kerry Diamond:
And you weren't the kind of assistant we've seen in movies and TV shows where you were at his beck and call and running behind him with a clipboard and things like that.
Laurie Woolever:
Right. Right.
Kerry Diamond:
You, in fact, I think I remember when we spoke on the show last time, you in fact, didn't even see him that often.
Laurie Woolever:
Right, right. I mean, he traveled so much. And so, we didn't have a shared office. Again, I really wasn't required to be any place particular as long as I had Internet access and phone access, I could kind of do my job from anywhere. And I loved it. I still sent my kid to daycare most days, because kids are their own full-time job. So, but I was able to have some days with him and not stress about the subway and all of the clothes, and all of the things that go along with working in Manhattan.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sorry we dragged you into Manhattan today.
Laurie Woolever:
Oh no, I'm very happy to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you? Good. Good. What kind of work did you do for him?
Laurie Woolever:
At first, it was really basic kind of assistant stuff. Keeping his schedule, and managing his time and making sure that the travel stuff all lined up, and that he got to where he needed to be when he needed to be there, and fielding queries. I mean, just so many people asking for interviews, asking him to do events, asking him to do this or that. A lot of questions that would come from the pre-production side of his TV show. It's an exhausting amount of back and forth. And so, I was the catch all for all of that stuff. And then I could make it really kind of streamlined for him and just get yes and no answers or tell him like, "These are your two options, choose one." We just cut down on a lot of the static in his life. So, it's not rocket science, but to do it in a way that relieves the stress of the person that you're working for, I think is important.
And then as time went on, I started to do more things like editing. If he had to write something, a foreword or a chapter or an article or something, he would send it to me and I would make some edits or make some suggestions. Sometimes I ghost wrote stuff for him.
And then he eventually started his imprint with Ecco, Anthony Bourdain books. And he started giving me the opportunity to get involved with that. So that I did line editing for one of the first books he published, which was called Grand Forks, which was a collection of Marilyn Hagerty's restaurant reviews from the Grand Forks Herald in North Dakota.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell everybody why she was famous.
Laurie Woolever:
She was famous because she wrote a very typical for her review of the Olive Garden, somewhere in Grand Forks or the immediate area. And for some reason, it went viral, somebody picked it up and thought it was hilarious, because it was a very earnest review, straightforward review about the Olive Garden. And that was just the Zeitgeist of 2011 or 2000, I think was 2012 that this was hilarious to a lot of people. And she went viral. And of course, there was a lot of derision.
And then, Tony kind of came from under and was like, "This is amazing. Let's not make fun of this. This is one of the viable restaurant choices in this area and she's doing them the respect in the service of reviewing it." And so, he really saw a lot of value in what she was doing and sort of an anti-coastal snobbery approach to things. And so, he really felt strongly about publishing her collected works.
And she's still working, by the way. I mean, she's, I don't know, she must be in her 90s by now. But she has been writing reviews of everything, independent restaurants, McDonald's, Golden Corral, The Olive Garden. I mean, she does it all, high and low. And so, I got to spend, I just immersed myself in her body of work, and it's really you learn a lot about a place from the kinds of restaurants that people are interested in reading about in an area. So that was a great, fun project and an intro to being involved with the imprint.
Kerry Diamond:
Let me ask, so all along, were you still doing your own writing? Or was there just no time? You have this demanding job, you're raising a child.
Laurie Woolever:
I was, as much as I could. I was still doing my own writing. I had this kind of steady gig as a contributing editor at Wine Spectator. So, I was doing a certain number of articles a month, mostly sort of recipe based and some, I had to write quizzes and just, I mean, I had kind of a whole sideline gig with that. And then as much as I could, I was pitching other stories. I did a big piece for the New York Times about food coops, foods like meal sharing coops in neighborhoods and I was involved with my neighbors. So that was sort of the basis of it. And I talked to a lot of other people who were doing the same thing.
Yeah, I did as much as I could, but yeah, I didn't have a ton of time to really develop a full writing career because of all the other demands on my time. But it was enough to sort of keep me reasonably satisfied.
Kerry Diamond:
What was going through your head, though, were you like, "Oh, I'm going to quit in six months, it's time to move on." Because you'd made that decision when you were with Mario, that I need to do my own thing.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, I mean, this wasn't as tiring or taxing in any way. And I could see that anytime I might start to feel a little bit that way, like, "Oh, I'm kind of selling myself short. I'm edging close to my 40s and I'm still an assistant." I think Tony was aware of that, too. I mean, he knew I wanted to be a writer. He knew I had ambitions beyond being an assistant.
And so, I think he was really strategic about giving me better and better opportunities to keep me on the hook, because it was good at his life. And I was able to make his life a lot easier. I know that now, having talked to our agent, she was his agent, and eventually became my agent. And that was a conversation that they had where, he really wanted to find opportunities for me so that I wouldn't leave.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you learn how to say no gracefully? So, I would imagine you just had to let a lot of people down all day long.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's definitely language that I used over and over again. And a lot of times, it was really just a fact of, "I'm sorry. He's going to be out of the country. He's not avail." I mean, it made it easy in some ways, because what I was telling the truth. It wasn't like, "Oh, there's no fucking way he would do that." Festival and wherever, it was just like, "Sorry, he's just not available."
And he was really good about protecting his time when he was available. He really made a big effort to spend time with his family. So even if he was available, he wasn't. And I didn't need to get into the long, I got better and better over time at sort of putting up a boundary. Because I think at first, I would be really apologetic and explain in great detail where he was going to be and at some point, it's like, "It doesn't matter. It's nobody's business. He's just simply not available."
But yeah, I did that a lot. I definitely had to let people down a lot. And then when we got to say, yes, it was really exciting because people were thrilled. He really set a really good example, too, of putting up boundaries, and really doing the things that were worth his time that excited him, or that were hugely lucrative, which is something that was some sometimes that was the decision maker
Kerry Diamond:
Got to make a living. Let's fast forward to the book. So, at some point, you sit down with Anthony to talk about this book. Can you tell us about that?
Laurie Woolever:
So, we published a cookbook in 2016, Appetites, which I think, I spoke with you about on the show...
Kerry Diamond:
Oh I love Appetites. Yes.
Laurie Woolever:
... a couple of years ago and that had gone really well. That was a really fruitful collaboration. And that was definitely the biggest opportunity he had given me to date. And I loved it. So then, he came to me and said, "You know, let's do another book."
Kerry Diamond:
And you were full on the co-author of that book.
Laurie Woolever:
That's right. Yes. So, it was a conversation between me and Tony and Kim Witherspoon, who's now my agent, about... Here's this idea. We should do a travel book, and how are we going to do it? He was really inspired by Atlas Obscura had just published their big book. And he really liked the idea where they weren't encompassing the entire world, but just those really unique special places everywhere.
So, he wanted to try and use that as inspiration. Obviously, it's a very different book that we made, but that was a point of reference for us. And of course, Tony had been not everywhere in the world, but many, many, many places, and many places more than once. So, we have this great body of work to refer to. And so, we had this one meeting that I thought was going to be the first of many, many, where I went in, I had a list of every place he had been for television. And we just went through and decided whether or not to include them.
And then if we were going to include them, what were some of the places that stuck with him off the top of his head, that really made an impression that he wanted to share with other people. So, that became really the blueprint for the book. And unfortunately, that was the only meeting that we had, because probably three months later was when he died.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. So, you only have that one meeting to go on this whole book?
Laurie Woolever:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe a couple of emails, I'm sure. I mean, as I was writing the proposal, there were some conversation, but really, once it got down to it, and the publisher agreed, and we were set to go, it was really just that one. And I feel very lucky to have gotten that one. I mean, he was so busy and this was in the spring. He went back-to-back travel and speaking engagements and a million other things, and I just happened to catch him at a time where we could take an hour and sit down and talk. So yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the book.
Laurie Woolever:
So, this is a travel guide to the world according to Anthony Bourdain. And it is heavier in some geographies than others, obviously. Probably 50% of the shows that he did were domestic. So, there's a lot of United States in there. But there's also a lot of, not every continent... He did go to Antarctica, but that's a hard thing to recommend to the casual tourists, so we left that out. But every other continent...
Kerry Diamond:
It's such a heavy book.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it's dense. I mean, I think it's about 400 pages. I do not know. I think of it in word count. So, it's about 120,000 words, whatever that means to you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a lot.
Laurie Woolever:
So, it's got a lot of Tony in it. I mean, even though he was not around for the bulk of the time that I worked on it. I had access to everything he had written, everything he had ever said on camera, everything he had written for voiceover. And so, there's a lot of rich depth of Tony in the book. I mean, he was such a fantastic writer. He wrote all of his own voiceover for television.
And when he was just speaking off the cuff on camera, a lot of that stuff was... He's spoken full paragraphs with little side jokes and references. And so, all of that is in this book. I really wanted to get as much Tony in there as possible. And even if there's words that you might have heard him speak before, it's different to read them and to see them put together to establish a sense of place for each of these many, many chapters that are in there.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you do the actual transcribing?
Laurie Woolever:
I did not. Unfortunately, Zero Point Zero, his production company, they had a very complete archive of all of the shows, and I was able to work with that. Because that would have probably added a year on to...
Kerry Diamond:
That's true. I am a nerd about transcribing. I'm one of the few writers who likes to do her own transcriptions. But I was just curious, hearing his voice in your head that much. But I guess even just going through the transcriptions, you were hearing his voice. I'm just curious how hard that was.
Laurie Woolever:
I'd say it was not hard at all, really. I mean, if anything, it was very, very comforting. You know, it was also watching hours and hours and hours of old episodes, most of which were available to me, either through the production company or through the weird channels of YouTube.
To get back to work on this book after his death, I mean, it was difficult to pick up the pace. But then to have the privilege and the obligation to sit with all of his work and to re-read things that he'd written and to really kind of dive into his voice again, felt like I was saying this to somebody yesterday who was asking me, just a neighbor asking me about the process. And I said, "You know, I sort of got paid to do the emotional work of grieving, and it was profoundly helpful in the process, the early grieving process, to have Tony, his presence around me all the time. And to feel like I was making something new out of the work that he had done.
I don't know what I would have done if I didn't have this project. And my job ended when he died, to have to go out and do something completely new, would have felt like such a shock on top of shock. But to be able to kind of gracefully taper out over the last few years with these projects, has been, I think, really, really helpful to me in my own kind of emotional processing of what happened.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. How are you doing today?
Laurie Woolever:
I feel all right. It's not easy. This month, especially, we're talking in June, and there's two days. There's the death anniversary, that a lot of people take to social media and really remember him. And then there's his birthday, which has sort of become known as Bourdain day. So, there's, in the span of a month, there's these two days and I have to just take responsibility. And if it's too much for me, it's like, "Well, I do not have to be on Instagram today."
And mostly, it's lovely to see people remembering him and paying respects and sharing their memories of him, but it is a lot. It's just a very sad thing. I mean, when anybody chooses to take their life and all the people that he left behind, and the regret and the wishing that things had gone differently. I told myself early on and anybody else that was kind of close to him that I was talking to, we had to tell ourselves and I do believe this, that there's nothing anybody could have done. I mean, this is a decision that one person makes and there's no changing it, there's no going back. And to sit and feel that one has, none of us made this happen, and none of us could have predicted it.
So, to add guilt on top of the shock and the grief is not helpful. But it's hard. It's surprising to me after three years that it's still, the grief kind of comes and goes depending on what's going on. There's this beautiful film that's coming out soon, that really kind of brought a lot of stuff to the surface. And really just, I had a small part in the film, I was a consulting producer, the film's called Road Runner, it's coming out in July.
But I didn't see a cut of it until probably two weeks before the Tribeca Film Festival. And it just kind of re-surfaced all that early grief. And it just kind of broke my heart open and really made me see what a lovable, flawed, complex person he was all over again.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I had a hard time even watching the trailer and I only met him once or twice. I thought I don't even know if I can watch that movie.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it's a real, it is a tear jerker. I was glad to have seen it at home privately before I saw it at the screening. Because it's a lot. I mean, they've done a tremendous job really, really showing you who he was and how complex and beautiful he was.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned that when Tony passed, it also meant that you were no longer his assistant, but people have for right or wrong, projected onto you and expected of you to be the keeper of the flame. How are you handling that? That's a huge role.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. I mean, in some ways, it's nice but I also feel like it's too big a responsibility for me. I mean, there were plenty of people who worked just as closely with him in different roles. The people that made television with him for a decade or more, arguably knew as much about him and were as deeply involved with his work or much more so then I was. So, I'm uncomfortable being sort of that one person, because I just don't represent the entirety of his work or his life, certainly.
But that being said, putting out two books about him in three years definitely does sort of put me in that position. So, it's complicated. I mean, I always try and this is something that I learned from Tony, "If there's something I don't know, I say that. And I don't pretend to be the official historian forever and ever. I can answer questions and I can point people to more information, but I don't want to be the owner of his legacy, because he was so much bigger than me, so much bigger than any one person."
And then there's also the question of, "How does this impact the rest of my career? So far, it's been great. I mean, I've totally recognized that World Travel has done so well not because of me, because of Tony. Because of the attention that his name brings. But, do I want to be the person that is, this might be the high watermark of my career and that's a weird thing to accept. That I may never, I almost certainly will never have a book that sells as well and has as much sort of commercial success and New York Times bestseller list.
I mean, never say never, but this association with an extremely famous and beloved person, that may be as high as I ever achieve in some ways. But that doesn't mean that I don't still want to do my own thing. And I have to accept that if I write my own little book, it's probably going to be a little book, and I have to sort of be okay with that.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's wrap up on this book, because we have a few more things to talk about. World Travels. It's a great book.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And it seems like the perfect travel book for the internet age.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Because as you said, I can't remember if it was in one of the articles you wrote, or in the intro, that this isn't the guide to how you cross Midtown via bus or get to some fairy or whatnot. So what kind of travel book is it?
Laurie Woolever:
You know, in the best-case scenario, it would be all things to all people, right? Because there is a level of practical information in there. And some people have said, "Why did you bother to write so much about airports?" And I get that. I think it's interesting. It's often the first point of connection for people with a country. And a lot of times, there's a lot of interesting stuff that you can learn about a place. When was the airport built? And what countries does, other countries are served by these airports. Who is it named after? How far outside the city? It's all these things. How do you get back and forth? Is there a robust public infrastructure that allows you to use public transportation? I think there's a lot to be gleaned there.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm a big airport nerd.
Laurie Woolever:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you?
Laurie Woolever:
I am. Yeah. I think it's so interesting. I want to know. It's an important part of the travel experience.
Kerry Diamond:
A bad airport is such a missed opportunity.
Laurie Woolever:
Yes, yeah. And there's so much bad airport food, which is a whole other thing. There is practical stuff, but of course you can't go too deep. And so, I do say in the intro, definitely consult your local internet or an actual travel guide, which, they're still publishing them.
I think that this is a book for people who really loved Tony and followed his work and want to re-establish a connection with his voice and read what he thought and felt about some of these great places that he went to. I think it's for people who are coming out of pandemic and are dying to travel, which is a lot of people. I think there's a lot of good ideas, jumping off points. You've never been to Paris, read what Tony says about Paris, and how to use Paris and how not to run yourself ragged in Paris, just as an example.
And then, I think it's also for people, I always give the example of my mom. She is physically handicapped. She's not going to be able to travel anymore in her life. She loved to travel when she could, but she loves Tony's shows. She had them saved on their DVR, and they kind of dole them out one by one. And for her, just to read about all of these places, just to understand the sauce on the chicken on the beach shack in Mozambique or the train ride from Colombo to Jaffna in Sri Lanka. All these little things that she won't get to experience, but she can experience them through Tony's eyes and through reading this book.
So, I think it's for travelers, and I think it's for non-travelers alike. And maybe you are a very seasoned traveler and you've been to many of these places. And you can compare notes from what you've done to what Tony did. Or if you're going to go back, you can say, "Oh, I didn't know about that little place. And next time, I'll check that out."
Kerry Diamond:
How was it for you last year? You're still grieving your boss, you have a child doing Zoom school, and you are writing a travel book in the middle of a pandemic, when no one can travel? I can't even imagine what was going through your mind.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, it was a lot, challenging for sure. At the same time, I had planned to be kind of home and sort of on my own self-imposed lockdown in the time period that we were locked down because I was finishing the next book.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, which we'll talk about.
Laurie Woolever:
And also doing edits on the travel book. So, in a way, it was like, "Well, I was going to have to sort of ground myself anyway in order to make my deadlines and to do a good job on this book." So, I didn't find myself, too out of sorts. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of concern about, "Oh, we're going to publish a travel book when nobody's going anywhere and who knows how long this is going to last?"
The timing actually ended up working out really well. It was supposed to publish in the fall of 2020, and then because of some production issues, it got pushed to the spring of 2021.
Kerry Diamond:
Fortuitous.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, I mean, we had the presidential election, which was taking up all the oxygen in the room, and COVID, second wave and no vaccines yet. And I just don't think a travel book would have hit the same way that it did in April, when people were really starting to feel a little bit more hopeful about getting out into the world again.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any moments where you were like, "Oh, my gosh, no one's ever going to travel again."
Laurie Woolever:
Oh, yeah, yeah. Because the way that people were sort of refusing to take direction and prolonging this thing was like, and then you see airlines, struggling hotels, restaurants, the whole tourist infrastructure. I mean, and it has taken an enormous hit. I mean, things are back. But a lot of people have lost a lot. So, it's worth noting that just because some people survived, not everybody did, and travel is different.
I mean, I booked a flight to and from Syracuse with me and my son, and I just got a note from the airline saying, "Oh, we've made some slight changes now. You've got to go through Detroit to get back from Syracuse." And I think that's, I mean, it's just, it's the pains of getting these industries back up to full capacity. So yeah, it definitely was a concern, and I'm hoping for the best. I'm hoping that this new place that we find ourselves keeps the industry growing and recovering.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the second book that you reference. This is a biography. I feel we're calling him Tony, because he wasn't my friend, but I know all the people who love him call him Tony. So, it's a biography about Tony, but it is an oral biography, which I love. And again, I don't know him, but I would imagine that he loved.
I funnily enough worked for a guy named Legs McNeil, who wrote, Please Kill Me: The Oral History of Punk Rock. And Legs, was just a legend in punk rock circles, still is. And then there was that great book ED, about not Ed Falco, about Ed Sedgwick, who was part of Andy Warhol's gang and George Plimpton did that oral biography. I think he had a co-author as well. I love oral biographies. So I was thrilled to see that this is an oral biography. And I was curious, are they, you didn't write a traditional biography, but I would imagine they bring some unique challenges.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, I mean, I have to say, as a writer, it was a relief to do it this way. I think, to have done all the interviews that I did, and then try and flatten it down in a way into my own singular narrative voice, I don't think would have served the story. I don't think it would have served the people who had all these stories to tell.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you set out to do a traditional biography?
Laurie Woolever:
No, no. The idea was always to do an oral biography. I think, writing biography as its own very specific art and some people do it really, really well. But this format really worked for me. And it allowed me to get to know a lot of people that I didn't get to know when Tony was alive.
Kerry Diamond:
Such as?
Laurie Woolever:
Such as Anderson Cooper, who I'd met once or twice, but I hadn't really had any meaningful conversations with him. And Christiane Amanpour and Kamau Bell, and Josh Homme from Queens of the Stone Age. And Tony's mom who I had never met before, and his brother who I had never met before. And all these guys that worked with him in the 80s. In that period of time, he was writing about Kitchen Confidential, who had great stories, and were people that I never would have met. And then, different kitchen colleagues from the 90s.
I knew I had relationships with a lot of the people that he made television with, but I hadn't ever again, had the time to sit down and hear their stories about traveling and having all these adventures with Tony. So, it was a real education.
I felt that I knew him so well, and that I knew everything he was doing and where he was and why for a decade. But I learned something new about him from every single one of these interviews. So, I think people who also followed his work closely were big fans and read all of his writing will still find a lot to learn from this book.
Kerry Diamond:
Was it cathartic or healing, do you think for the people you interviewed?
Laurie Woolever:
I think so, yeah. I mean, some people shared specific sentiment with me that it was really useful to talk about Tony and talk about their memories and kind of try and process what happened and who he was. So yeah. And there were some people who didn't want to talk because it was too painful or because they just didn't want to revisit that time. But I was very lucky to get a lot of great cooperation from a lot of different people.
Kerry Diamond:
Is Eric Ripert in the book?
Laurie Woolever:
He is. Yes, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Again, I will eventually read the book because I have so much respect for you. And I have so much respect for what Anthony did for the world of food and travel and journalism. But I just would imagine it's going to be a hard read.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. I try to keep it moving and it really does try and tell his story from birth to death. There's a lot of funny stuff in there. But there's also a lot of sadness and there's a lot of... He surrounded himself with really smart, really empathetic people from all different walks of life and to read the things that they saw in him years and years ago and their observations.
And there's a remarkable through line of people understanding that, yes, he had the coolest job in the world, yes, he was presented as a very cool guy. But at heart, he was shy and awkward, and nerdy, and very loving, and a real romantic, and all these things that don't necessarily telegraph through the adventure travel TV genre, but are very much part of who he was. And there's funny stories, it's a journey.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Is it hard knowing that people will be looking for answers from this book?
Laurie Woolever:
I guess so. I don't think it has all the answers. I mean, I don't think we can ever really know what goes on in a person's mind truly. But I think that it will give people a fuller picture of who he was and how he saw the world and how he experienced things and sort of what his expectations for his life were. And I think in that way, there will be answers.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your biggest takeaway about yourself in the course of writing this?
Laurie Woolever:
I guess what I said before about thinking, even if you think you know somebody so well, that there's always more to learn about them. And that your perspective is just that. I mean, it's that kind of Rashomon thing. And there are cases in the book where you see events relate in different ways, different truths, depending on who they're coming from. And yeah, so I think it really reminded me to take everything somebody says at face value is not always arming yourself with the absolute truth, and maybe there is no absolute truth. But that there's always something more to the story that somebody is choosing to show you or not to show you.
Kerry Diamond:
What is next for you?
Laurie Woolever:
Well, I have just started working on a bread book with a chef in Copenhagen, Richard Hart, who has a place called Hart Bageri, I guess they say in Denmark. So, I am shortly about to go to Copenhagen for the first time and I'm going to work closely with Richard and see how he makes bread. And we will be publishing that, I believe in 2023.
Kerry Diamond:
That's exciting.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
That will be a nice break for you to go somewhere completely different.
Laurie Woolever:
It's a real change of pace for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Will your son travel with you?
Laurie Woolever:
No, he is going to theater camp and baseball camp.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, much more fun for him.
Kerry Diamond:
And he'll be going to Syracuse at some point.
Laurie Woolever:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
We've established that. Yes.
Laurie Woolever:
Yes. We're doing a fishing trip on Lake Ontario with my dad.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, fun. All right. And how about, are you still writing?
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Taking general assignments, asking for a friend.
Laurie Woolever:
I haven't taken too many, just because it's been a whole second job of promoting World Travel. And now, I'm starting to head into the promotion period for Bourdain: The Definitive Oral Biography.
So, I haven't really had a lot of time and I've tried to be better about not overloading myself. I used to just say yes to everything, and then be subsumed with regret over having said yes to everything. So, I'm trying to be a little nicer to myself and give myself time to do things, a couple of things well versus 20 things, not that well.
But yes, very much. I'm very interested in writing, I got the opportunity to do a few assignments around World Travel. I did a thing for Vogue Australia, about traveling with Tony, and once this book is out in the world, the second book, I will have more time to do that kind of thing. And I'm starting to work on my own little projects, telling my own stories from my time working with Mario and working with Tony and maybe some childhood stuff. And I don't know if it's a memoir or if it's a book of essays, but it's something that's really from my perspective.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. What is your thing? Tony's thing was travel and restaurants. What's your thing? What do you love doing, writing about?
Laurie Woolever:
That's a good question. I've been writing a lot about relationships and sort of what it was for me to be a girl in the 80s, and a college student in the 90s. And what the expectations are of women taking care of men. I mean that's a very specific, unique viewpoint. I mean, it's not unique. I think it's actually quite universal, but it's really just from my perspective of how that impacts a person, how you make decisions, to get partnered or to not be partnered, and it's quite personal. But having been married and divorced, and I think there's some things that I wish somebody had told me as a young person so that I could make smart decisions, because I made a lot of dumb decisions.
Kerry Diamond:
I would think the same thing about myself, but I don't think I would have listened.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, that's true. It's true, too. I mean, I know I made the decisions that I made with the information that I had. And I don't necessarily regret anything, but I see how the larger culture made me feel kind of forced into a couple of small boxes when the truth is, there are a million boxes.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Laurie Woolever, if we're going to do a little speed round, I'll get you out of here.
Laurie Woolever:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Last pantry purchase.
Laurie Woolever:
Whole Wheat flour.
Kerry Diamond:
I guess, are you getting ready for your baking?
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah, I've been trying to develop a very strong starter. It took me a couple rounds.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of flour in the Woolever household.
Laurie Woolever:
So much flour.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite or most used kitchen tool.
Laurie Woolever:
Chef's knife every day, all the time, multi-use.
Kerry Diamond:
Is there a brand you love?
Laurie Woolever:
I have a Global that I really like. But I will say I got it in a swag bag at a party several years ago. So, I didn't make some sort of deliberate decision, but I really love it. I love how lightweight it is and it's very easy to sharpen.
Kerry Diamond:
Music in the kitchen. Yes or no?
Laurie Woolever:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And what do you listen to?
Laurie Woolever:
Right now, it's a lot of Neko Case and Courtney Barnett.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love Courtney Barnett.
Laurie Woolever:
So good.
Kerry Diamond:
Footwear of choice in the kitchen.
Laurie Woolever:
Bare feet.
Kerry Diamond:
I think you're the first one to say that. I do bare feet too. And then I drop the knife and I'm like, "Oh, oops."
Laurie Woolever:
I know it's not safe. I'd say clogs, but I have terrible feet. So, I can't have anything that has any kind of an angle. So, just heavy-duty sneakers. Bare feet, really, let's be honest.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, really, what's the difference between Converse and bare feet?
Laurie Woolever:
Right, right.
Kerry Diamond:
Tiny sliver of fabric. Okay. Oldest thing in your fridge.
Laurie Woolever:
Oh, I have some hot sauce that I got when I moved into my current apartment which was three years ago that I haven't opened yet and maybe never will.
Kerry Diamond:
Most treasured cookbook or a treasured cookbook. You probably have a lot of cookbooks.
Laurie Woolever:
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Well, can I say Appetites?
Kerry Diamond:
Sure.
Laurie Woolever:
I think it's great. I use a lot of the recipes because a lot of them are my recipes. So, Appetites. Sorry. No self-promo.
Kerry Diamond:
There's no shame in loving your own cookbook. I still love the Cherry Bombe cookbook and cook from it a lot. Yeah. A dream travel destination. Now that you wrote a whole travel book, where would you like to go?
Laurie Woolever:
Oh, great question. I would like to go back to Vietnam. I only went to Hue in the central part of the country. And I know there's a lot more there. I'd love to go to Ho Chi Minh City. I would love to go to Hanoi. And I would love to go up to the mountains.
Kerry Diamond:
This question is a little bittersweet because we've been asking this one for a few years. We took a little break during the pandemic. But the question is, if you had to be trapped, we probably asked you last time, if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity who would it be? And the number one answer has always been...
Laurie Woolever:
Tony Bourdain.
Kerry Diamond:
Tony Bourdain.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. I can think of far worse companions. I know last time I said Padma. So, I'll just go with the crowd and say, Tony, because I would love to be able to spend time with him again. I have dreams about him quite frequently, and it's always really, really nice to see him.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you dream about?
Laurie Woolever:
Lately, it's been minor struggles that I'm trying to help him with, like, get his phone working or get tickets to a certain movie, or it's just like an annoying problem that we can't quite solve. And so, but other times it's been, he comes back and it's like, "Oh, it was all a big misunderstanding. And okay, I'm back. Let's get back to work."
Kerry Diamond:
You're going to make me cry.
Laurie Woolever:
Yeah. So, I think it's very normal to have these kinds of dreams about people that left far too soon.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Well, Laurie. We're such big fans here at Cherry Bombe, and thank you for putting all this beautiful work into the world.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And we're just glad you're here and you're a writer and truth teller and all those things.
Laurie Woolever:
Thank you very much. This was super fun. I love talking about myself.
Kerry Diamond:
We love hearing about you. That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Laurie Woolever for joining us and sharing her memories of Anthony Bourdain. I still miss Anthony very much as I know many of you do. So, it's nice to know his life and spirit live on in Laurie's projects. Be sure to pick up a copy of Laurie and Anthony's book, World Travel: An Irreverent Guide at your favorite local bookstore.
Thank you to Cakebread Cellars Wine and to Homemade the podcast from the publisher of Allrecipes for supporting Radio Cherry Bombe. This show is a production of Cherry Bombe magazine, which you can subscribe to at cherrybombe.com. And while you're there, I would love for you to sign up for our newsletter. Learn about our podcast episodes like this one and our other interviews with food world legends including Nigella Lawson, Alice Waters, and Yotam Ottolenghi.
Radio Cherry Bombe is recorded at Newsstands Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Thank you to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer of Newsstands Studios, and to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. And special thanks to the band Tralala for our theme song. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the bombe.
Harry from When Harry Met Sally:
I'll have what she's having.