Lena Ciardullo & NYT Cooking Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Third Wheel Podcast Studio in Los Angeles. A little change of scenery. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine, and each week I talk to the most interesting women and culinary creatives in and round the world of food.
We have a two-part episode for you today. First up, I'll be talking to Lena Ciardullo, the Executive Chef at Union Square Cafe in Manhattan. Union Square Cafe is a much loved restaurant, and is the cornerstone of Danny Meyer's Union Square Hospitality Group. Lena has worked for the organization ever since she graduated from the Culinary Institute of America. We talk all about her impressive career, her culinary approach, motherhood, and more. In the second half of the show, it's Camilla Velazquez and Emily Weinstein from the New York Times. Camilla is the general manager of New York Times Cooking, and Emily is the Food and Cooking Editor. The two join me via Zoom to chat about food at the Times, as well as the New York Times Cooking emoji line, which debuted recently. Text your favorite fruit or vegetable emoji to 361-COOK-NYT, that's 361-COOK-NYT, and you will get a free recipe in exchange.
As mentioned, I'm in Los Angeles right now, and we had a great dinner Monday night at AOC, the popular West Hollywood spot owned by Caroline Styne and Suzanne Goin, two L.A. hospitality legends. The dinner was the third event in our Sit With Us series with OpenTable. Thank you so much to everyone who joined us. It was really a beautiful night of just community and connection and conversation, and of course, great food and drink. Our San Francisco Sit With Us dinner is tomorrow. Please note it is sold out. Thanks to those of you who snagged a ticket, and I will see you soon. And thanks to our friends at OpenTable.
Now, let's check in with Lena. Lena, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Lena Ciardullo:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You are as mentioned, the chef at Union Square Cafe, one of the most renowned and enduring restaurants here in New York City. For folks who have never visited, what's the restaurant all about?
Lena Ciardullo:
So it's interesting because Union Square Cafe has been around for almost 40 years, so what's the restaurant about is a long story. Danny Meyer's original restaurant opened right off of Union Square and was a huge part of developing the Greenmarket, and really I think the ethos of a lot of chefs in New York and how they cook and source, so that's always going to be part of our DNA. And then beyond that, it was meant to be a restaurant that felt comfortable and not pretentious, and welcoming in a new way. It was actually really cutting edge. It's funny because people now think of Union Square Cafe as a very safe, take-your-family place, but it was really cutting edge. It was in a neighborhood no one would go to, they were serving food that was, at the time, different from what you could get in New York, and I think a lot of what Danny set out to do then is still really relevant now, and so it's fun to take it over for a new generation of guests.
Kerry Diamond:
I think it's fair to say that Union Square Cafe really changed the dining scene.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
In New York City. It changed that neighborhood completely, but truly changed the dining scene.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes, definitely. Before, a great meal came with a white tablecloth and probably a French menu, and that's just not anywhere close to New York anymore. So it's interesting to see how, I mean, and obviously that was before my time, but it's really fun to think about, and I love looking back at the history of New York restaurants and how this restaurant specifically had a big part of it.
Kerry Diamond:
I had the pleasure of eating at Union Square Cafe last week.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
I tried to sneak in, but that was probably a stupid idea.
Lena Ciardullo:
There was no chance. There was no chance.
Kerry Diamond:
Knowing how focused the whole organization is on hospitality, you all found me.
Lena Ciardullo:
Indeed. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And you came over and said hi, which was very kind of you. I really struggled with what to order, because everything sounded great that was on the menu.
Lena Ciardullo:
Thank you. That's how it should feel. I love when people are struggling to order. That makes me feel like I'm doing my job really well.
Kerry Diamond:
For folks who've either never been or haven't been in a little while, or haven't been now that the new season is upon us, tell us some of the menu highlights.
Lena Ciardullo:
Oh, boy. So I change the menu very frequently.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you do? How frequently?
Lena Ciardullo:
As fast as I can make it happen. It's so dependent on the weather and the market and my boredom. So a lot of it is just about wanting to keep everyone engaged and challenged and wanting to ensure we're serving the very best in that moment. But this year has been really fun because I took over in 2020, and then pandemic, and then the ongoing recovery, and then pulling back and ramping up and pulling back and ramping up that happened. So this year has been the first year when I feel like we can really actualize some of the dreams we had for, or that I had honestly for where I wanted the menu to go. There are dishes on the menu currently that are dreams I've had. I never cooked them, I just knew, "This is the dish, this is the concept, it has to happen, and now we're going to try and just make it."
And a lot of them were born from things I wanted to cook during the pandemic when I was home. You get so much spare time to think about what you would do hypothetically. The amatriciana that's on the menu is a favorite. I think it really helps to tell my story as someone who spent time in Rome, worked in Maialino, a Roman trattoria, and amatriciana is probably my favorite of the Roman cannon of dishes, but kind of reimagined, because Union Square Cafe is not a Roman trattoria, so we shouldn't be doing a classic amatriciana, but at the same time, I would judge someone who'd stray too far, because I love things done very classically. So ours is basically the same thing, but just utilizing sungold tomatoes and cherry tomatoes from the market as the tomato product, versus a canned tomato sauce.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell folks what the traditional dish is.
Lena Ciardullo:
So even that is up for debate, based on which expert and which region of person you're talking to. If it's someone from Lazio and the greater region or Rome specifically, or does it get red onion or not? Everyone's got a hot take. But to me, amatriciana should be tomato product, usually canned tomato, chili flake and/or black pepper, I like both, red onion, and then guanciale fat pecorino. Often with dry pasta, typically. So at Union Square Cafe, we make all of our pastas fresh now, our pastas are dry, but ourselves, so it's a semolina based lumache that we're doing with it. And then we subbed out canned tomato product for just oven-roasted sungolds and cherry tomatoes. I did this dish for a Beard House event years ago, but it was when I was working at a restaurant that didn't serve pasta, so I was like, "I just know that someday this is going to be on my menu." And so I finally got to actually have it be actualized.
Kerry Diamond:
How about in the entree or the protein section?
Lena Ciardullo:
Oh, so many. I think the one that I'm really excited about is, we have a steelhead trout on the menu, and again, I had, at home cooking with my husband, circa April 2020 or something where we made a blackened fish and I was like, "God, that would be so fun at Union Square to do a blackened style fish, but in the summertime and serve it with something cold. So you've got the warming spice, but something chilly and refreshing." And so I had it in my head, and luckily, CDC speaks my crazy language where I can say, "Hey, I have this dream, it's going to be a blackened fish. I want it served with a cucumber broth. I think raisins and pine nuts would be really great. Maybe throw a grain in there so it feels more substantial. Cucumber forward, refreshing, go." And he brought me a dish that was ready to be on the menu.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you translate the things in your head? Do you have a journal that you carry around, I don't know, your Notes app on your phone, what do you do?
Lena Ciardullo:
I was using the notes app and things like that. The ones that stick with me, you just can't shake them until they get made. But I also have some documents that I've kept, especially during the pandemic, I had a document that I had written by category of dish and by seasonality, where I was just making it a brain dump essentially of, "Here's all the appetizers I would want to hypothetically run in spring. Here's everything that I can imagine doing during winter time," et cetera. And I had it for snacks, appetizers, pastas, entrees and desserts. And it was just a place, I've never cooked any of these things, it just sounded good. Like, "If I was reading a menu, I'd probably want to order this, theoretically." And sometimes I do refer back to that just to see where my head was at then.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us one more thing on the current menu.
Lena Ciardullo:
Oh, let's see. Another thing on the current menu. You know what? This one is not specific to right now in this season, but we have an appetizer that I couldn't figure out what to call it to make it compelling, so we just call it broccoli, because that's what it is, but I'm really proud of it. I hemmed and hawed over it for a long time. I wanted there to be a very vegetable-driven appetizer that would be appealing to anybody. Not challenging but interesting. So a lot of times I like to fold in the odd ingredients in a way where they're subtle and my mom could order it and not be intimidated by it.
So it's broccoli that is served on top of a little bit of seasoned yogurt, but it's tossed with pomegranates and candied pecans, jalapeno mint, and it gets a black garlic balsamic vinegarette. So to the average person it's like, "Oh, broccoli and balsamic. I know about those. That's not scary." But then when you eat it, I think it's just under promises and over delivers as a dish, which I love. And I like starting my meal with vegetables. I like vegetables all throughout the meal, so it's a nice one to have as, you know, any table, anybody.
Kerry Diamond:
I love broccoli, but it doesn't get a lot of love on menus.
Lena Ciardullo:
No, well, and so this is actually broccoli and broccolini, and so right now is very fun because we're using broccolini from Campo Rosso at the Union Square Greenmarket, which is also just a standout product, so you can get jazzed about it, but also, it's nice because broccoli is actually pretty delicious all year long. It's not like a tomato that it has its couple months and then it's gone. It's something that you can feel proud about serving.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you get much time to walk around Union Square, the Greenmarket?
Lena Ciardullo:
I do. It's part of my commute, which helps. I can walk through. So a lot of times, I'm not the person like schlepping everything back to the restaurant anymore. I was for quite a while, but now it's more just having the dialogue, what's coming, what's going, this tastes great, "What price can you give me this at?" Et cetera. Discovering new farms that we hadn't purchased from because they have fantastic stuff, and then being able to give the directive of what to get in from where.
Kerry Diamond:
As you mentioned, you took over the kitchen at Union Square Cafe in 2020. What was your mandate? And I know they threw the mandate up in the air because you took over and then the restaurant closed, but when this opportunity was presented to you, what did everyone say?
Lena Ciardullo:
It's interesting. A lot of people think that I was given a lot more directives than I really was. To Danny's credit, he didn't. He and I have always felt very in line about one thing, which is, this is a restaurant with a lot of history, and he didn't have to tell me this. If you're going to change things, it has to change for the better. I think it's as simple as that. Don't change for the sake of it because your ego says you have to. Change because you found something that's going to be even more engaging or more delicious or current or whatever. But it must have a purpose. So when I took over, I had never thought about being the chef of Union Square Cafe. Danny came to me and said, "Hey, I think you're the right person for the job." And I hem and hawed over it quite a bit.
And when I did finally decide to take it, I remember the first staff meeting I went to before I'd actually taken over. It was an introduction to the team that was currently there. The first, it was like, "Are you going to take off this, are you going to take off that? What are you going to do?" There was a little bit of anxiety, I could tell. And I told everyone, I was like, "I've been in to eat here. And when I came in to eat, I ordered the bibb salad. It's a really damn good green salad to have on the menu. I can't imagine developing a better version of this. So no, I'm probably not going to want to change that, and I'm good with that." But yeah, so I think the mandate was, "Just make it better," and that's the standard I would have for myself anyway.
Kerry Diamond:
Were there any sacred cows or customer favorites that you absolutely could not touch?
Lena Ciardullo:
Probably the bibb salad is the one. There was some sacred cows I did touch. I still get asked for a tuna burger, that is likely not going to ever come back. I totally understand that people have affection and love for that dish, but I also think you can't put something on your menu that you don't buy into. And so that's not a dish that I love, so it's hard for me to have that hold a space, because it's limited real estate.
Kerry Diamond:
So everything else aside from the bibb lettuce salad is brand new?
Lena Ciardullo:
The garlic potato chips and bar nuts are old recipes. Everything else is new. The burger is a slightly varied version of the burger. I mean, I changed it up a little bit when I took over, but yeah, pretty much everything is new.
Kerry Diamond:
What's special about your burger?
Lena Ciardullo:
Nothing and everything. What's special about any burger? In the sense that it's so personal. Burgers are personal. Some people love a huge, big old meaty patty. Some people love a smash burger. It just depends on what you want. Everything from me, I don't like to feel like it's a gut bomb. I like to feel, I didn't do anything too bad when I finished eating. Again, born out of the pandemic, our burger has a herb aioli. Kind of funny story. When we were shutting everything down, I'll never forget, Friday the 13th, close it all, and we tried to send the team home with all of the food we could, so everybody was taking home garbage bags full of food. And as the person orchestrating everything, I certainly wasn't concerned about packing a bag of food for myself. I was just trying to get as much food and as many people out while we cleaned. And at the end I looked around and there was nothing. And I did have this little bit of remorse where I was like, "Oh, nothing left for me to take with, I guess."
And I looked and there was this court container of greens, it was scallion and parsley chopped up and held in olive oil, and we used to put it on a roasted oyster dish. And I was like, "I'll grab that, some herbs, whatever." And it's the only thing I took home. And it lived in my refrigerator for three weeks, because it was covered in olive oil, so it didn't go bad. And I started adding this scallion parsley mix to everything, because it just worked, and it was preserved, held in oil, and it became the base of the aioli that my husband started putting on burgers all the time at home for the first month of the pandemic. And I started to be like, "I don't want a burger without this."
And so it became the new Union Square Cafe burger standard, was this herb aioli and then tomato, red onion, lettuce. I like it to feel a little bit of a salad on there, because we also have Heritage bacon and the Pat LaFrieda burger that I wasn't going to change because it's delicious. I wanted to make sure we were sourcing everything thoughtfully, but I also wanted it to eat a little bit lighter.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, so Union Square Cafe, as we've mentioned, is part of the Union Square Hospitality Group, which is easily the most legendary hospitality group in the country. It's led by Danny Meyer, who we mentioned, who's familiar to many of our listeners. You've worked for the group pretty much your entire career. So I'm curious what attracted you to USHG, and why you've stayed with the organization as long as you have.
Lena Ciardullo:
I think in terms of what attracted me, I was more attracted to, honestly, I applied to Gramercy Tavern, and I was attracted to the idea of sustainability and thoughtful sourcing, and I was on my high horse out of culinary school about how I would only ever work someplace that made only the best decisions and et cetera, which I still believe in. But you start to realize some levels of reality. And when I staged at Gramercy-
Kerry Diamond:
I think that's a good high horse to be on.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah, it is a good high horse to be on. When I staged at Gramercy, Mike mentioned to me, "Hey, I see you spent some time in Rome and et cetera," and unbeknownst to me, Maialino was going to be opening and they were looking for cooks there. And so Mike made the connection that I might make more sense doing that because it aligned more with my background.
Kerry Diamond:
Mike Anthony?
Lena Ciardullo:
Mike Anthony, yes. So he introduced me to Nick Anderer, who had been working at Gramercy Tavern and was going to be the executive chef for Maialino, pre-opening. And so I interviewed with Nick at the home office for Union Square Hospitality Group, there wasn't even a kitchen yet, and got the job, and then had to kill some time working in New York until the restaurant opened. But I didn't get into it because of Union Square Hospitality Group, I got in it because of wanting to work in specific restaurants. And then what keeps me is great coworkers, honestly. It's mostly the people, and the fact that I do buy into the ethos, the idea of treating your people first, being responsible to your community, knowing that you truly do believe that your boss is a good person and is making thoughtful choices. That is important, and has become only more so the higher up I get in the organization, and obviously there's frustrations and growth pains and all of that, but when I look outside at the other things, I still feel like I'm in a really good spot and being taken care of.
Kerry Diamond:
And also the seriousness of hospitality as a career.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes. Yeah, 1000%. I never wanted to be a chef, actually. I wanted to be a culinary teacher. I just kept on moving up and finding it to be a career. It wasn't the career I set out for, but finding it to be a career, and a very satisfying one at that, and finding opportunities to teach within it that were really welcomed in this company too. So that also helped keep me around.
Kerry Diamond:
So the restaurant opens, what happens?
Lena Ciardullo:
Oh, with Maialino. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. I can't think back more fondly. I think I got in, to the company, to the restaurant scene, everything, just at the right time. Maialino was an instant success. It formed me. You got to watch just amazing cooks. I mean, it was all the sous-chefs working the lines. I got to cook next to people who, at my level of experience, I should not have been cooking next to. And Maialino was ambitious, and it was really about a la minute cooking, so everything having to happen in the moment, trusting your palate, finding out what the food needs and making adjustments, and really high standards. And that felt awesome to be a part of. It was a really fun team. And when I look around, even the city now and I look at the people who are doing all these great things, so many are Maialino alums.
Kerry Diamond:
And you held your own next to those sous-chefs?
Lena Ciardullo:
I mean, no, of course not, but... Of course not. I was known as the one who was really organized, who took good notes and who would work my off, basically. I don't think I'm the most talented person in the room, but I think I'm someone who is engaged and organized and thoughtful, and so that usually gets me by.
Kerry Diamond:
So Maialino was originally part of, what was that hotel?
Lena Ciardullo:
Gramercy Park Hotel.
Kerry Diamond:
Gramercy Park Hotel, RIP.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So Maialino's in a new location then?
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes. So it's actually in the Redbury Hotel where Marta, is on the 30th street side of the building.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so what happens after Maialino?
Lena Ciardullo:
So Maialino, I'm so grateful to my younger self, because I knew I shouldn't be a manager yet. Advice to everyone who's young and cooking, you're not as good as you think you are, go learn somewhere else. And not in a mean way. I was phenomenal at Maialino, but I also knew that I only knew that, and I didn't want to someday not be cooking at Maialino, have someone ask me to do something and me feel ignorant. So I wanted to go and learn something else. Talked to Nick Anderer, the chef, and he was like, "I can connect you anywhere, what do you want?" And originally, I thought I wanted to stay in Italian food. I had thought about going to Del Posto, and then he said, "Well, have you ever thought about staying in the company and doing something different for a change, just to see something else?" And I was like, "Well, I guess maybe that is a good idea. Maybe I will go back to my original notion of Gramercy Tavern."
So went there, loved it. It was a completely different skillset I learned, and Mike was so great at mentoring people, and I think I had something like four or five different dishes on the menu and I was there as a line cook. Because he let people be collaborative and he let people explore that. And there was a lot more, I don't want to say autonomy, because they were certainly running the restaurant. It wasn't as if I had that much control, but we were counting food for inventory. It was a different set of skills to learn. So in addition to the cooking chops that I learned there that were not Italian and interesting in their own right and seeing the market, getting shopped for in a very thoughtful way, there was one person who's just responsible essentially for talking to farmers, bringing back the goods, having a pickle program, all these different things. So I just got to see that explored in a greater way, and then eventually Nick tapped me for Marta to say, "Hey Ciardullo, I know you like Italian food. Come on back."
Kerry Diamond:
Before we leave Gramercy, tell folks about the cuisine and the ethos at Gramercy.
Lena Ciardullo:
American market-driven food.
Kerry Diamond:
And widely regarded as one of the best restaurants in the country.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes, totally. And again, I'm so grateful for when I was where I was, because I was at Maialino for the opening, I got to see Nick curate a restaurant, and then also shepherd it into who it would be. Because restaurants when they open have a little bit of a unknown, what are people going to respond to? So I got to watch that happen at Maialino, and I got to be a part of it. Then I got to go to Gramercy. At the time I was at Gramercy is when Mike won a James Beard. He released the first cookbook. I was a part of the photo shoots and the recipe test and all of those moments too. And so it was really, and it felt like we were in our heyday.
Kerry Diamond:
That's great for a young chef to see how all those things work.
Lena Ciardullo:
I was right place, right time in so many ways. And again, the peers I worked next to went on to do amazing things. And so that was cool to see that there was almost a graduate program of, "Okay, you can come, you can do this, and then look at the runway it can offer you."
Kerry Diamond:
And that runway led to-
Lena Ciardullo:
So for me, led to Marta, which I went to as by far and away the most junior of the managers. I was the only one who didn't have management experience, but I think that's where the choices I'd made earlier served me really well, because I was acting like a bossy manager when I was at... So many people who I worked with there, and I see now and we'll see each other out or at an event or something, they're like, "Oh my God, I was so scared of you." And I'm like, "Why? What are you talking about?" But I guess I was real bossy.
Kerry Diamond:
So this was your first official first management position?
Lena Ciardullo:
First official management position.
Kerry Diamond:
What were you hired to do?
Lena Ciardullo:
Sous-chef. I went to my boss and said, "I really don't want to do AMs. I know I'm really organized and all that, but I would really prefer not to do AMs." And he was like, "Cool."
Kerry Diamond:
What's an AM?
Lena Ciardullo:
Working mornings.
Kerry Diamond:
Our listeners are very smart. I'm sure they would've figured that out, but just in case.
Lena Ciardullo:
Mornings tend to be very production and a little bit more admin heavy. There's ordering that typically the AM would manage, and PM often gets the glory. It's dinner service. I know I'm organized and I'm the woman and admin and whatever, but I really don't want to do AM. And he gave me the, "I hear you, and also you're going to be doing AM to start." It's like, "Okay, to start, but if I'm really good, I deserve to get what I want." And he's like, "For sure. Let's just start here and see where we go." And so within, I don't know, six months or so, I got to move to PM and I got to do that. And then within a year, I was an executive sous-chef and then chef de cuisine and then executive chef. So again, right place, right time, got to move up at a speed that's unheard of.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the food at Marta.
Lena Ciardullo:
Wood fire. That's the main event there. So huge wood-fire grill, as well as two pizza ovens, and inspired by Rome, so if Maialino is the Roman trattoria that does pasta, then Marta is the Roman pizzeria that does Roman cracker crisp pizzas. And the grill was a curveball to some extent. I don't think of grilled meats necessarily as being Roman, but we tried to use that Roman lens to tie everything together.
And I think if I got to see Nick's perspective at Maialino and I got to see Mike's perspective at Gramercy, Marta was really cool because I had a nice framework of Rome, which was something I was very passionate about and knew about, but I also had wood fire to layer in there, and it allowed me to figure out what my perspective was. And it was a challenge, but one that had some nice guardrails on it. That was what my progression was, being at Marta, was deciding, "Okay, what is not only delicious but belongs on this menu?" Because that's the debate as the chef, it's like, "I'm curating something for this guest. It has to feel like it belongs."
Kerry Diamond:
One thing we have not talked about yet is, somewhere along all of this, you have had two children.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm thinking to myself, "How'd you squeeze that in to all these incredible jobs and leadership roles that you've eventually had?" So you are mother to two young boys.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
How old are the boys?
Lena Ciardullo:
Luca is six and Leo is two. One of my coworkers when I had the second one said, "What are you trying to do? Create an Italian boy band?" I was like, "Not unless it's two people, because no more coming." But yeah, I did somehow manage to squeeze in having some kiddos in the mix.
Kerry Diamond:
I am so curious, and I know women bristle being asked about things like childcare because men aren't really asked about it, but we don't really interview that many men. And I do think it's so important for women to hear stories like this, because one of the things we hear from younger women in hospitality is they just don't even know how they would fit in being a mother.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah. And that's a really fair concern, because it's true. It's really hard. I told my husband that I was not ready to have children until I was in a position of power, because I knew as a line cook, when things come up, what leverage do I have? And I'm responsible to something as a line cook. Something that's really different about cooking is, everyone's not cross-trained. As much as you try to be. If one person calls out, there's only so many people who can fill that role. And that role must be filled for that day. If one person calls out of an office and that desk isn't filled that day, they could get to the work the following day, but that's just not how it goes. So I never wanted to feel that I was going to let my team down, or that I wasn't going to be able to keep up.
So I said, "I'm not going to do it until I'm in a position where I have a little bit more power." And then when I did decide that I was ready and I got pregnant, I remember talking to the person at the time who was the head of the HR department, and I was being promoted to executive chef at Marta, it was around that time, and I said, "I just don't know if I want to do it. I don't know if I want to be the executive chef and have a newborn. This just seems like too much. Maybe I should transfer or leave or something."
And she had originally responded with, "Well, would you want to be in charge of the director of training for the company, or would you think about this or what do you think about that?" And then she texted me late the next night and said, "Why am I pitching you for a job that sure, admittedly, you'd be good at, but it's not the job you want. If you want to be the chef, you should just be the chef and have a baby and we'll figure it out." That sounds really romantic and nice, and it's been a lot harder than it sounds, but it meant a lot to have someone say it, because you're like, "Okay, there are people invested in this," to the extent that Danny had just rolled out parental care.
And so I was like, "Okay, when I want to take two months off because I had a baby, I'm being given permission to by my industry because they've already said that's something that they're going to do. I'm not like having to push forward and fight for it." That was really impactful. But it's just really hard, and you have to have financial means and some power in your job in order to pull it off because childcare is crazy, and because you never feel like you're as good at either, because they're pulling time, but I think in a lot of ways, they both make you better at the other, so you have to give yourself that grace too.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you mind sharing how you handle childcare?
Lena Ciardullo:
I have a nanny. My husband travels like three to four nights a week for work, so we mostly don't see each other during the week. So it was not going to be feasible for us without a nanny. There was no way. There's no daycare that you can pick up your kid at midnight.
Kerry Diamond:
Aside from having a leadership position, what is your advice for young women who would like to work in kitchens?
Lena Ciardullo:
When I was deciding about it, I was talking to Kim DiPalo, who at the time was the general manager of Gramercy Tavern. She's now the head of a really awesome foundation called Drive Change. And she said the thing that I mentioned that you're going to feel like you're worse at both, and in some ways you will be, because you have to give time up, but also, they're going to make you better. There's no good time. People say it all the time about having kids, opening a business, whatever. There's no great time to do it. If you decide that's something that you really want to do, do it, come to terms with the fact that sometimes it's going to suck. I can't paint a picture that it's going to all be sunshine and roses, because it won't be, but you'll find a way through because it's what you wanted. If it's something you're really passionate about it, then you'll find a way. And it might not be in the original path that you'd set out to do.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have other role models in that respect, or other women you were able to talk to?
Lena Ciardullo:
Not as many. Kim was honestly the person who I spoke to about it the most. The majority of my peers who have children are men and have spouses who were in roles that were more able to be supportive at home, whether they were, not necessarily all stay-at-home parents, but some of them were teachers, or they had a work life that matched the timing of the kids' lives, and my husband James and I just don't have that. So we had to write our own script.
Kerry Diamond:
And sounds like a lot of your mentors were men.
Lena Ciardullo:
I didn't see a lot of women in the kitchens that I was working in. That's not true. There were women, but we were all at the same level. There weren't as many leadership positions of women.
Kerry Diamond:
And now women are looking to you?
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah. Yeah. Pretty cool. Comically, our pastry department, which is historically very female-
Kerry Diamond:
Right. And you've got Claudia Fleming who was the original pastry chef.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah. So our pastry department, we have a lot of young men working in it, which is really fun. And our savory department, I wish I had more females, honestly. You have to hire for the person, not just for checking a certain box. I try not to say, "Oh, we need this or we need that." I think we have a really diverse kitchen in a lot of different ways, which is phenomenal. That's important to me. There's not as many women as I would like, and that's from an applicant standpoint, but also, I think there's a lot more out there to be done in the food world than there used to be. So to me, I could not fathom what the job was if it wasn't working in a kitchen. And I mean, look at, you have a whole industry that's all about the food world and you're not in a kitchen. So I think there's just a lot more avenues out there and the younger generation is exploring that more.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk a little bit more about being a chef. What brings you joy about being a chef?
Lena Ciardullo:
I'd say there's two different parts of that. One is teaching. I really love watching someone's understanding of hospitality in general, but also food, grow, and when you see them, I have a cook who now loves anchovies who when they started working for me, had never eaten an anchovy. And they were a little bit put off by it. And now they're just over the moon about them, and that's really fun. It's fun thinking that you got to open someone's eyes to something. And then additionally, I love, the part that I didn't expect, I love the food dreams. I love thinking about what's going to go together, and then being able to have the immediate gratification of making it happen. I learned I do not have a tolerance for a long wait. I want to get to see the satisfaction. I like seeing a guest's face. I like thinking about something and then cooking it and having something to show for it right away. I don't like all this back and forth stuff. I could never do TV. I did one commercial and I was like, "This is miserable. So many takes."
Kerry Diamond:
When you said food dreams, are you talking about daydreams or are you literally, your head hits the pillow and you are dreaming of food?
Lena Ciardullo:
Both. You start thinking about it during the day, and then for me, it's not so much that I'm asleep, it's that I can't sleep because I'm thinking about it. So I'm just laying there running through different scenarios. I used to run through services in my sleep. It's like a video game. It's like a simulation. And it changes every time, which is so engaging. I remember my husband once woke me up, we were way younger, I was working the pasta station at Maialino, I think, and he went to wake me up on my weekend, and was like, "Hey, it's almost 10:00. Are you going to wake up?" And I was like, "Hold out, I'm three out on a tonnarelli." Like, "What are you doing?" But every service is different. It's so engaging all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
It is so clearly in your blood, lena. What is your biggest challenge today, being a chef?
Lena Ciardullo:
There's a balance between standards, and I want to teach. I have people who come into the kitchen who have never done this before. I have to manage my costs, so I can't have a bunch of unexperienced people who've never done things, and I also want it to be perfect. It's this balance of how much time can we spend teaching, how much can I have expectations? How do I not give in on my standards, and still encourage that, that growth for people? I'm very grateful to have a great management team who helps me.
Kerry Diamond:
How was your experience at Culinary Institute of America?
Lena Ciardullo:
Lovely. I met my husband there, so glad I went. Beyond that though, I found it a little bit easy, honestly, and I don't think that was a popular opinion, but a lot of chefs are not school people. The expectations there were more challenging for some. To me it was like, "Oh, write a paper about some Mediterranean spice." My pleasure. I'm going to do the history, I'm going to do this. I really got into the cultural aspect of food and tying it in, and I think teachers were refreshed by that idea.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us more about that, because I feel like we have never talked about that aspect of culinary school. In my mind, it was always you just get thrown into a kitchen, you start learning knife skills and then you work your way up. That there wasn't the reading and the writing of papers, things like that.
Lena Ciardullo:
There wasn't a lot. I mean, the expectations were very low. I went to a four-year college and then went to culinary school, so to me, the expectation of what paper writing was not a lot, but it was engaging to me. It was really interesting. I think that's how a lot of my dishes come to be, is thinking about a culture ideal or a historical dish and how you put a new spin on it, and why those things might go together, and it's more than just grows together, goes together. There's a whole story behind food. I used to dream that I would open a restaurant called Story, and every dish would have a narrative, but no ingredients. Now I'm like, "That's insane."
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, wait, wait.
Lena Ciardullo:
That's insane.
Kerry Diamond:
Go back. Say that one more time.
Lena Ciardullo:
I had a dream that I would open a restaurant. The restaurant would be called Story, and there would be five pages of short stories, and each one of them would be your three-course meal based off of.
Kerry Diamond:
But you wouldn't tell people what the ingredients were?
Lena Ciardullo:
No, it would just be the feel of it. And now I'm like, with the allergies people have today, no chance. I would never do that.
Kerry Diamond:
But you do bring up something interesting. I don't think restaurants do enough storytelling on their menus.
Lena Ciardullo:
So this is a hot debate we have all the time, because it's very trendy now to have a very minimalist menu. I talk about this all the time to our front-of-house team. I spend a lot of time, as part of the training of our front-of-house team is that, I'm so dependent on them. You came in, you had our lobster dish, which I'm very proud of, really fun. And one of the components is a lobster Louie. And I think that's a really great example.
It's like, "Okay, well, what is that? What's that about?" And the whole concept behind it was we were like, "Oh, wouldn't it be so fun if we served something like a crab Louie, but a lobster Louie, and talking about the history of when that dish was popular and how lobster wasn't even popular at the time and now it's such a luxury item?" And there's a whole dialogue that can be had. You just have to remember that not every guest wants to have it. That's the challenge, is how much do I write on the menu? How much do I ask a front-of-house team member to discuss, and who caress?
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned you went to a four-year college. When did you know you wanted to be a chef?
Lena Ciardullo:
Around the time I was putting off the idea of taking the LSAT. No, I studied abroad in Rome on my junior year of college. I went to University of Illinois. I studied abroad in Rome. It wasn't a real program to learn anything in specific, it was just an excuse to get to go to Europe. Specifically Italy, I'd always wanted to. I just interacted with the city differently than my peers. I was with a lot of other kids from Big 10 schools and I went to the clubs like everybody else, but I also was taking the tram out to neighborhoods that they considered weird, and I was going to try and hunt down the best cacio e pepe, or I would often eat three-course meals by myself. Often. To the point where I had a waiter drive me home on his motorino at the end of the meal because we were pals.
Kerry Diamond:
Where did that come from?
Lena Ciardullo:
I just liked food more than everybody else, I think.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you grow up in a big foodie family?
Lena Ciardullo:
Not really. I mean, my extended family, I have aunts who are phenomenal cooks. One of them has a home catering business for her community and the other one doesn't, but went to a small culinary program and always cooks for the family events and everything. We never had gatherings at our house. It was always on either side of the family at one of those aunts' house. So I just liked food a lot more than everybody else. And I had since I was little, and I don't want to bother eating if it's not delicious. So I wasn't going to go with them to some tourist pizza place. I didn't want that. If I'm going to eat pizza in Rome, it has to be the best pizza in Rome.
I gained 30 pounds in six months and ate everything. And it made it clear to me that my interaction with food was different than my peers and that was the light bulb. It wasn't like, "Oh, I tasted this Roman dish that made me have to be a chef." It was more like, "I care more about this than everybody else, and it's maybe more than a hobby, but I don't know." I always cooked at home, I always cooked for my friends, but never with any training, never with any real idea of what I was doing. So I got back and it was my senior year of college and I'd finished all of the classes I really needed to take, I was just there for fun for senior year, so I was like, "You know what? Maybe I'll just get a job in a restaurant to see. Whatever." And I offered myself, "I'll work for free, I'll do whatever. I just want to see it," at the best restaurant on campus. Where you took your parents when they came to town.
And I was really lucky. There was a bunch of nerdy townies who were in the kitchen who were super into it. They had “The French Laundry” cookbook and they had “Heat” and they were talking about that and all this stuff and-
Kerry Diamond:
The Bill Buford book?
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah. Which Nick Anderer's actually referenced in that book and I ended up working for him. So funny. But yeah, I just was way more engaged in that kitchen than I ever was in my classes, so it became a light bulb moment.
Kerry Diamond:
And how did your parents take the news?
Lena Ciardullo:
They were pretty adamant about culinary school. They're very conservative in terms of risks, so they were like, "Okay, you have your degree, Communications." I thought I'd go to law school, but they were like, "You have your degree so you'll be okay, but you should probably go to culinary school to learn about that." And they were supportive though. They weren't surprised, which was also a light bulb moment. I was like, "Oh, I thought you guys would be a little bit more upset about this, but you're acting like this is very normal."
Kerry Diamond:
I'm happy to hear that. And now look where we are.
Lena Ciardullo:
Indeed.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's do a speed round. I've kept you here a long time.
Lena Ciardullo:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
You have a job. Okay. One of your favorite books on food or favorite cookbook?
Lena Ciardullo:
“Culinary Artistry,” which is the precursor to “The Flavor Bible,” and was given to me when I worked at that restaurant in University of Illinois area.
Kerry Diamond:
Best food movie.
Lena Ciardullo:
I think “Ratatouille.” I got kids. I hate rats. I'm disgusted by them. But the movie is cute.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite kitchen tool.
Lena Ciardullo:
Microplane, I think. Garlic, cheese, lemon, you get all the important flavors there.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have separate ones?
Lena Ciardullo:
No, I don't have time for that. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
One thing that's always in your fridge at home.
Lena Ciardullo:
Anchovies.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite childhood food?
Lena Ciardullo:
I was pretty adventurous as a kid. I think latkes. We would go out with my grandparents and there were these delicious potato latkes.
Kerry Diamond:
Snack food of choice today.
Lena Ciardullo:
Popcorn, but we call it wok-corn in my house because we pop it in the wok.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's fun.
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your secret for that?
Lena Ciardullo:
No secret. Oil, popcorn, salt-
Kerry Diamond:
Lid?
Lena Ciardullo:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it. Footwear of choice in the kitchen.
Lena Ciardullo:
Danskos, but I wear the booties, not the clogs, which everyone, when they first meet me are like, "Are you wearing heels in the kitchen?" But no, they just have a better arch.
Kerry Diamond:
Any motto or mantra that gets you through the day?
Lena Ciardullo:
You know what, this isn't really mine, but one of my peers said this and he just says, "PMA," positive mental attitude. And it's such a, I don't feel like I really struggle with that, but it's such a great reminder to a cook who's stressed out, just like, "PMA, man."
Kerry Diamond:
PMA. Okay, good reminder. If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Lena Ciardullo:
I've been racking my brain about this. I feel like there's so many different routes you could go. I'm not real sure. I've never hung out with David Chang, but he seems like he'd be fun. We have different expertise, so that'd be cool.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Well Lena, it was so good to have you on the show finally.
Lena Ciardullo:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And I'm just so impressed by the career you've had. Thank you for being a role model too. Lots of new chefs.
Lena Ciardullo:
That's so kind. Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with our next guests.
The latest issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine is now available. Yes, we have a print magazine. Whether you are a print nerd who loves magazines as much as I do, or you're new to the world of magazines, you should check it out. If you'd like to get the brand new issue, there are two ways. You can purchase a Cherry Bombe subscription and have it delivered direct to your door four times a year, or you can pick up a copy from your favorite magazine shop, bookstore, or gourmet shop. Places like Scout in Marion, Iowa, Porter Square books in Cambridge, and the Joy Map in Albuquerque. Cherry Bombe Magazine is thick and gorgeous and printed on lush paper. It's filled with recipes, features and profiles you don't want to miss. Visit cherrybombe.com to subscribe, or find a stockist near you.
Our next segment is for all you summer produce lovers. We've got Camilla Velasquez and Emily Weinstein from the New York Times, and they're going to tell us about the New York Times Cooking emoji line. Text a fruit or veg emoji to 36-COOK-NYT, and you'll get a recipe and response. If you're at a farmer's market wondering what to do with that gorgeous head of broccoli or those shiny eggplants, give it a whirl. And hopefully you all know this, but The Times has a great team of contributors like Melissa Clark, Hetty Lou McKinnon, and Eric Kim, and their recipes are always creative and meticulously tested.
Let's check in with our next guests, Camilla and Emily, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Emily Weinstein:
Hi.
Camilla Velasquez:
Thank you for having us.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's get started. I would love to talk about what each of you does at The Times. Our listeners are so curious about food media, and you two really represent different aspects of food media. Camilla, since you joined most recently, you are the general manager of New York Times cooking. Tell us what your job entails.
Camilla Velasquez:
Yeah, absolutely. So I just had my one-year anniversary at the New York Times.
Kerry Diamond:
Congrats.
Camilla Velasquez:
So far it's been great. Yeah, thank you. So my job is really to help grow the business, and really be thinking about how to increase our subscribers to New York Times Cooking, and also how help New York Times Cooking support the broader Times in general. My team really thinks about on the business side, how to get all of the work that our journalists put out into the hands of more people, and in particular have them subscribe to it. As you said, you're a proud subscriber, but it's not that Food Media has a tremendous legacy of subscriber growth. In the recipe space, it's very competitive, and getting people to subscribe is still something that we're getting the world to get used to.
Kerry Diamond:
Emily, let's talk about you. You have been the food and cooking editor of the time since 2021. Can you share your job description with us?
Emily Weinstein:
So I lead the team that produces the New York Times food section, reviews, criticism... Oh, criticism of all kinds, features, writing, investigations. That's the department I lead, and of course NYT cooking. And that includes the recipes, our cooking columnists or video, all of it. And I just love it. I really, really love it. And I've worked in food and cooking at The Times for a really long time, and I was the editor of NYT Cooking and a deputy in the food department for many years before I officially became the food and cooking editor in 2021.
Every week is a mix of working with our reporters and editors, just looking at the work that we're going to be publishing that week, looking ahead at the major projects. I'm a department head in the newsroom, so I'm also very much involved with the desk heads who are leading other parts of the New York Times. Everything from styles to metro to national, and dialogue with all of those editors. And of course Camilla, who's just completely my partner in crime. We really locked arms since day one, and working with Camilla and all our colleagues on the business side on the product, and making sure we're doing everything we can to make or work worth paying for, and doing everything we can to connect it to the largest possible audience who'll get excited about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me the difference between the food section, which historically was where all the food coverage went, and NYT, New York Times Cooking. What is the difference between the two, for folks who don't know?
Emily Weinstein:
NYT Cooking, actually we're coming up on our 10th birthday next year. So the NYT Cooking experience was built on top of all the work we were doing in the food section. The two are related, and not just related, like really deeply intertwined. It really is the same team producing all of that work. But obviously, NYT Cooking is a separate subscriber experience, so if you want to access the vast archive of New York Times recipes and all the recipes that we're publishing every month, you become an NYT Cooking subscriber. And that's on top of the core New York Times experience. I think that about a decade ago, The Times saw this opportunity to build an amazing recipe-focused experience on top of all the work we were doing in food. And we were excited about it. We didn't know if anyone would ever pay separately for recipes. Nobody was really doing that at that point, and to see it just explode the way it has has been amazing. It's been an amazing ride.
Kerry Diamond:
Lots of folks are talking about you and the contributors. I'd love to know to what you attribute that. Good buzz is not an easy thing to generate.
Emily Weinstein:
We had really great talent on staff, and we've been able to recruit great talent on top of that. And I think talent attracts talent, and this is an extremely kind and collegial group of people too. We've tried to really make NYT Food and Cooking... Sorry, I know we keep using different names. It's because we use all these different names internally. We've tried to make it a really great place to work, and a place where people can throw their ideas out, they're given free rein to try to execute on those ideas. We really want it to be a place to work where it feels like there's a lot of energy and excitement. And everyone just loves food. Everyone loves food. And I get the sense that they're excited to talk about it all day, and they're really excited about the work that we're publishing.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the New York Times Cooking recipe emoji line. What is a recipe emoji line, and how does it work?
Camilla Velasquez:
So an emoji line is a... Well simply, you can text an emoji, any emoji of a fruit or vegetable, to a number, and you will get a recipe featuring that fruit or vegetable. In particular, the best ones are from seasonal produce, seasonal summer produce. And it's 361-COOK-NYT, and you simply text any emoji. And if you want another recipe that features that particular fruit or vegetable, you just text two emojis of that same vegetable or fruit.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what? I didn't try... I started with cucumber, and I got smacked cucumber, quick kimchi when I did the two cucumbers. And when I did the first cucumber, I got cucumber salad with roasted peanuts and chili, both excellent recipes.
Emily Weinstein:
Oh good. I'm so glad.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. And said "FYI, over 900 people have rated this Eric Kim recipe five stars." Good to know. I will confess, I did try to mess with it a little bit, and I sent it an ice cream cone, and it shut me down in a very polite way. It informed me that was not a fruit or veggie emoji. So-
Emily Weinstein:
We're not saying it's not polite.
Kerry Diamond:
The emoji line is also connected to an event series. Camilla, can you tell us about some of the events?
Camilla Velasquez:
Yes. We are having three events this summer. We just had one that passed in Michigan, which was a cherry picking and cherry tasting. We had over 700 people that wanted to come and we were expecting 350, so I think that one was pretty great. And now we have one coming up in California at Chino Farm in Rancho Santa Fe. And that one is going to be a strawberry-focused event. It's a strawberry recipe demo and a tasting with Genevieve Co, and that's July 29th. And then we have one in West Cape May, New Jersey on August 1st with Uwande, and that one is focusing on fresh New Jersey tomatoes
Kerry Diamond:
Were/are all these events free?
Camilla Velasquez:
They are.
Kerry Diamond:
What would be the emoji that each of you sends to the recipe line? Camilla, what's your favorite summer produce?
Camilla Velasquez:
I was testing the line a bit, and I started playing with coconut, and I got some amazing coconut recipes. I just started using them. It's been very fun with my kids to do something that's a little bit different and unexpected.
Emily Weinstein:
I'm going to go with the tomato, in part because tomato sandwiches and all the good stuff. When we start to get to peak tomato, I am just really eating tomato for dinner, so you would see me on that emoji text line, just sending tomato, two tomatoes, three tomatoes. Try and get all those recipes.
Kerry Diamond:
I love cherry tomatoes. Can't have enough of them. And cherry season is so short in New York state. I'm always sad when they disappear so fast. But I will continue to play with this recipe line all day. It's so much fun. It's almost like a video game for grownups who like cooking.
Camilla Velasquez:
We Looked at some of the data for how people are using it, and you would be surprised at how many people are interested in making broccoli for dinner.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, there you go. I almost did broccoli as my first one.
Camilla Velasquez:
A lot of searches for broccoli.
Kerry Diamond:
I've seen broccoli on more restaurant menus lately. Done in very interesting ways, not just steamed as a side for someone who might want to eat light. So I think broccoli's have-
Camilla Velasquez:
It's having a moment.
Kerry Diamond:
Broccoli's having a moment.
Camilla Velasquez:
Yeah.
Emily Weinstein:
Yeah. You know what? I have noticed the same thing, actually, Kerry. Interesting dressings, sauces, I think maybe we are seeing broccoli rising.
Camilla Velasquez:
It may also have something to do with the affordability of broccoli and its range, and it's being a good, valuable vegetable for that reason.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you for putting this really fun thing out into the universe. Everybody loves a recipe. It's so lovely that they're free, and that you're doing these events in conjunction with them and celebrating beautiful summer produce. So thank you so much.
Camilla Velasquez:
It was wonderful to meet you. Thank you for having us.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Want to stay on top of all things Cherry Bombe? Of course you do. Sign up for our free newsletter at cherrybombe.com. Learn about the week's podcast guests, upcoming events, and fun news from the world of restaurants, cookbooks, cake artistry, and more. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Our producer is Catherine Baker. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is London Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.