NIGELLA LAWSON & CHERYL DAY TRANSCRIPT
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Each week we feature interviews with the coolest culinary personalities around. I am so excited because one of our favorite guests is back. It's Nigella Lawson, the brilliant writer behind so many great cookbooks, including the modern classics, How to Eat, and How to be a Domestic Goddess. Last year during the Pandemic, Nigella's latest book was published, Cook, Eat, Repeat, and it is classic Nigella. There's lots to read, lots to cook and bake, and fun chapters dedicated to bold ingredients like anchovies and rhubarb. Those are separate chapters, of course.
And guess what? Nigella is headed to North America soon for her Cook, Eat, Repeat book tour and it kicks off November 7th in Boston and includes lots of stops in places like Minneapolis, Toronto, and Austin. There's even a special stop in Brooklyn on November 9th, featuring Nigella and Ina Garten in conversation. Tickets are on sale now for all dates. You can check out our show description for the ticket link and to see where else Nigella is going. Also, we'll be giving away a pair of tickets to Ina and Nigella's talk in Brooklyn, so keep an eye on our Instagram feed @CherryBombe.
Later in the show, we'll hear from two of our favorite bakers, Caroline Schiff and Cheryl Day, so stay tuned for that, too. Some housekeeping, we're getting ready to announce the schedule and lineup for our Cherry Bombe Cooks and Books Festival, taking place November 5th and sixth at the Ace Hotel in Brooklyn. It's a fun weekend-long celebration of cookbooks and the folks who write them. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter at cherrybombe.com and be the first to know about the lineup. You'll also get early access to ticket sales. Now, let's check in with our first guest.
Hi, Nigella.
Nigella Lawson:
Hi, Kerry. How are you?
Kerry Diamond:
I'm well, I'm well.
Nigella Lawson:
Have you eaten enough tomatoes yet?
Kerry Diamond:
There are never enough tomatoes. Well, we're very excited you're coming to America. I bought tickets the second they went on sale for Kings Theatre.
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
So Nigella, you're coming to the U.S. What foods do you look forward to eating when you come to America?
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, it so depends. I suppose what I really think, one of the things that Americans are brilliant at, and you are good at lots of things, is fantastic lettuces and salads. I'm not saying this because I'm looking for anything lean to eat, but because I think good lettuce gets rarer and rarer to find because a lot of it seems to be all uniform leaves, so a really good salad, preferably one with anchovies in the dressing.
Kerry Diamond:
You love your anchovies.
Nigella Lawson:
I do, and that's something I always love. I think as well, I love going to the places. It depends. Each city has a focus on slightly different ways of cooking and attracts different bands of nationalities. I feel, actually, at a slight disadvantage because I haven't really been in America properly for so long, but one of the things I'm very much hoping is I'll get very good recommendations.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, you are very popular on Twitter. I know anytime you mention us on Twitter, it explodes and I get worried. I'm like, "Oh my God, why are there a hundred tweets?" and it's you, inevitably.
Nigella Lawson:
So I suppose what I think is with America is that I think that there's always something, there's always such choice because if you feel like a hole-in-the-wall place where the food's going to blow you away, there's that. If you want old-school Americana, and I mean more not in terms of the cooking exactly, but that classic American elegance with a beautiful dining room and all the dishes you would imagine would be there. You're not going to be taken by surprise but you'll have a wonderful time. And above all, I mean, I think it's a difficult thing to say now, but I think an American steakhouse always is a lure for me because you are so good at that.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, you're coming at a great time. I mean, the number of new restaurants and young chefs doing pop-ups and really exciting things, I just don't ever remember a moment like this.
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I'm really encouraged because it must have been so difficult during 2020 and 2021. And also, of course, the great bakeries ...
Kerry Diamond:
New York alone, just wait till you're here.
Nigella Lawson:
I know, and that's often easier for me because you do events at night so you can't often go out for dinner.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll put a list together for you of all the new bakeries. But I do know the second you crowdsource your Twitter audience, you will crash the internet. I know that much.
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I won't do it because I've got to work out what I can do, but there's also just the joy of wandering about a city, seeing what's going on, being drawn to something unfamiliar. Or correspondingly, that if you get very tired on tour, often you either want that sudden energizing bolt of surprise or you want something that's very familiar and makes you feel looked after. And one of those places sometimes, when they've been doing the same food for 20, 30 years and it's still pitch perfect but you are not maybe going to have a surprise, but you are going to be taken care of. And that's the thing, is that food, whether it's the food we're cooking ourselves at home or the food you go out for, it's so allied to mood that it's quite hard to know ahead what you're ever going to be in the mood to eat.
But what I find when I'm on tour is that I don't eat as many vegetables as I do at home. So going to restaurants that have a great salad to start with and then, I mean, last time I was in New York I so fell in love with this salad and I wish I could remember where the place was. I wrote about it so might have to let you know after. The salad was so great I ordered one to start with and then at the end, I had to order another one. I don't eat burgers that much in the U.K. and I get a hankering for it, but you can get a very good burger in America and I like the ones which the young people don't. I wasn't brought up burgers, so I like it when they're really thick and have got fantastic meat them. I don't like the little slim, little skinny discs.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, big thing now is the smash burger, has that come to the U.K. yet?
Nigella Lawson:
No, I've read about it but I'm very much looking forward to it. There is a bit here. Nick Jones, who does the Soho House and all those houses here, he has something called a dirty burger, which is not dissimilar, I think.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Nigella, tell me about this tour. Why are you doing a tour now and are there any cities that you're hitting that are brand new, that you're really looking forward to?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I am looking forward to all of them but I didn't do a tour and my book came out last year because it wasn't possible. The lawyers wouldn't allow it, the publisher said. So now that a tour is possible, it's wonderful because there's something so great about ... I mean, I miss the States a lot, but there's something also great about talking about things that you love and I love talking about food. And then because this tour involves, always, audience questions, always, I love that because I quite like not knowing what I'm going to be asked but also it becomes a conversation.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you solicit the questions beforehand or do people ask them live?
Nigella Lawson:
It'll be up to each theater how they do it, but generally speaking, to the best of my knowledge, they'll just be whatever protocols are in play.
Kerry Diamond:
Got it.
Nigella Lawson:
They'll ask questions just as they want to and it's not me who'll choose them, but the interviewer.
Kerry Diamond:
And you're kicking things off in a big way with Ina Garten here in Brooklyn, my backyard. I do have tickets to this one so I do want to know a little bit. How did you and Ina pair up for this?
Nigella Lawson:
We did an interview together when everything was locked down and we just did it Zoom one and we got on very well. I mean, we've spoken before and I once did a guest appearance, again, a remote guest appearance. I filmed in London for one of her Thanksgiving shows. I mean, it's not surprising we get on because we essentially come from the same place, food wise.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you two never met in person?
Nigella Lawson:
I think once a long time ago, but not really, so I am very, very, very excited. I think we're going to have a gas. I mean, we're just going to be gabbling excitedly. I hope we're not all going to be turfed out on the dot because I feel like we could be talking for ages and, of course, there be questions and a lot of questions will provoke further discussion because we'll agree or disagree. But what I rather love, anyway, is conversations can't be contained too much and I think conversations are good because you can really discuss. You can go back to the person who's asked the question. Other people, sometimes, if they're relaxed enough can weigh in.
And for me in a way, just like cooking, you need it to have structure, but it has to have a slightly anarchic quality, too, when it's also a live thing happening. You're cooking in the moment. You suddenly change your mind and you want to add something else. You knock the thing, you chop, vegetables go in and times you knock it on the floor, you have to think again, and you are always reacting spontaneously. And like I said before, you need structure and a framework but you need the freedom to be spontaneous and exactly the same is true with these events.
I don't go with anything in particular to say except talk about the food I love and what I think cooking is all about, but every thought could be developed a different way so a lot depends on the questions I'm asked and a lot depends on what I might have eaten that day, the general interests of the audience as a whole and I'm very pleased to be steered by that, I think, as much as possible and this is the thing that it can be missing in events that aren't live. It's wonderful to be able to do things when you can't go over to a place physically, but one of the things that's so great is that intimacy of a room. And I think that's particularly true sometimes when an event's not being filmed because everyone is just in there and you are talking frankly and you are talking just from the heart. It's so extraordinary how each talk, just because of the nature of the person I'm talking with, and, of course, the audience, that both have an equal influence and it can go any number of ways and I think that's what makes it a proper authentic sharing and coming together and I suppose that that's so lovely for me to be able to do that again.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Let's talk about Cook, Eat, Repeat, the book you're coming here to celebrate. The last time you and I spoke about the book, it was rhubarb season and you have that brilliant chapter dedicated to rhubarb. Now it's fall here in the U.S. I flagged a recipe that I want to make, your Chicken in a Pot with Lemon Orzo, because who doesn't love all those ingredients?
Nigella Lawson:
It's so cozy, only one pot to wash up, and there's a kind of miracle of allowing you to feed lots more people than you would think you would normally with the chicken.
Kerry Diamond:
Your description alone, the head note, sold me on it, but I have a question for you. I have never cooked with dried herbs and it calls for dried herbs and it just made me think. Have I been missing out on this entire world of delight?
Nigella Lawson:
I think dried herbs are better than they used to be as well, because they're dried faster, often. It depends. There are different qualities. I'm very interested in the pairing of a dried herb with its fresh sister. So for example, one of my favorite pairings is dried mint with fresh mint. Now we know fresh mint, very underused, I think, in certain cuisines, not all. Fresh mint brings you freshness. It brings you something that's invigorating. And dried mint, on the contrary, takes on a sweet, deep, sometimes almost peppery flavor and so they really complement one another well.
I think winter in England, which is when I wrote this recipe for, sometimes the thyme you might get wouldn't be so great, but dried thyme is a really excellent herb. Again, there is something about thyme that ... I love thyme. It's one of my absolute favorite of fresh herbs to have and I try and grow it in whatever small space I have. And there's something so wonderful aromatic about it in a way that it's like walking through a forest. It has that boskiness. It's like walking through a forest and yet, there's a slight lemonness as well. It delivers on quite a complex bouquet, I think, on several layers. Now, dried thyme doesn't have so many notes in it, but again, like the dried mint, it's almost smokey and you notice more of that tipping towards anise seed. It's not quite anise seed, but it's going towards that and I think that works so well. I think with dried herbs, you're always better off on a dish that's cooked for quite a long time.
Kerry Diamond:
So stew, soups, those things.
Nigella Lawson:
Yes, stews, an awful lot. But it's quite interesting that if they're good dried herbs, it does all bring just a little bit more complexity. I think fresh herbs are often much better for the higher notes or perhaps I think of as more tip of the tongue than the flavoring that somehow just is like a cloud that seems to expand as you eat it, but they do work very well together. An Italian food writer, Anna Del Conte once said to me that if she's using dried mushrooms, she will like dried porcini. She says even if you use those little button mushrooms with it, it's as if those button mushrooms respond to the call of the wild and something in them that's had all the mushroom flavor knocked out of them, suddenly, they find that again and that somehow, you get more flavor out of them.
And I think there's something about using dried herbs and fresh herbs in combination that allows something a bit different to happen, that you are ramping up the flavor. I think it's more nuanced than if you just double the amount of dried or double the amount of fresh. And I think that's the interesting thing with cooking because what you want to get is you want to produce a chord, not just a note, but it depends. Some are better than others. I have noticed recently that I think they freeze dry them and they seem to be less dusty and desiccated.
Kerry Diamond:
Dusty and desiccated is what I think of my mom's herb collection from the '80s.
Nigella Lawson:
If I remember the dried herbs at home, you'd be using one in 1982 and it would be safe used by 1971.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. Okay.
Nigella Lawson:
I think no one ever threw them away. They got those things when they got married. They got a wedding present for that little herb and spice.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm going to take a picture of my mother's spice cabinet because there are some relics in there.
Nigella Lawson:
Then they never changed ever again, so some might be 30 years old.
Kerry Diamond:
You always give us great cultural recommendations. Is there anything you're reading or streaming right now that you can recommend?
Nigella Lawson:
I'm very behind on streaming. Like a lot of people, the summer reading, I adored or I read before was the Bonnie Garmus’ Lessons in Chemistry. Have you read that?
Kerry Diamond:
I just bought a copy of it. It sounds fantastic.
Nigella Lawson:
Oh. No, it is wonderful. It is really wonderful. It's one of those books that says serious things but is really one of those rollicking good reads.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, fantastic.
Nigella Lawson:
And I think the same is true, Gill Hornby, and that's Gill with a G, has written a book called Something Hall, Hoghton Hall or something, and it's probably going to be sold as spoof Jane Austen. It's not really spoof Jane Austen, although it's certainly written in that vein and Jane Austen features as a character. But it's written very much from the perspective of a 21st century feminist, really talking about the place of women. And of course, then it was marriage or you had to be supported by a richer family member or a life of an underpaid governess. I think it's a wonderfully peopled book, very much in the Jane Austen style, way or in a beautiful house and the family and it's witty. I think it merges contemporary attitudes with real researched fact brilliantly and I really warmly recommend that. Also, I read an awful lot of eBooks and when you read an eBook, unlike when you read a proper book as it were, you don't see the title all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
Right. Oh, I'm surprised you read eBooks. Well, I know you love books, I know you love printed things.
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I do love books but partly because my house is a health hazard anyway because as you walk in the door, you do a Bambi fall over because there are 70 books on the floor, every table piled up.
Kerry Diamond:
I forgot. You've already got thousands of books, right?
Nigella Lawson:
And also, it means I can read at night and when I travel I can take them with me. But I actually, I got both of that book because I had to buy the hard copy afterwards because I knew I wanted to read it again.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you read Black Cake by Charmaine Wilkerson?
Nigella Lawson:
Yes, I did. I thought that was wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
I just picked that up, so I need to read that next.
Nigella Lawson:
Yes. And I'm a lover of black cake, too.
Kerry Diamond:
I know. I'm excited because I'm going to make one this season. I had my first attempt at a fruit cake last year and I'm going to delve deeper into that world this winter. Well, Nigella, thank you so much for your time. It's always fun talking to you.
Nigella Lawson:
It was so lovely to talk to you. Sorry I ramble on as I do, but you seduce me into rambling on. I must partly blame you.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I'll take the blame. We could listen to you ramble all day. Isn't Nigella the best? I could talk to her forever. Next up, we have a special recording from our Jubilee 2023 conference, which took place in April at Center415 in Manhattan. Jubilee is our annual conference and it's become the largest gathering of women in the food and drink space in the whole US. We're about to hear from Caroline Schiff, the celebrated pastry chef from Gage and Tollner restaurant in Brooklyn. Caroline has become famous here in New York City for her Baked Alaska, which is considered one of the city's must-have desserts. I can also vouch for it. I've had it several times and it is amazing. Caroline will introduce Cheryl Day, the beloved baker behind Savannah's Back in the Day Bakery and author of the book, Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking. Cheryl moved several folks in the audience to tears, including myself, so get ready. I hope you enjoy her words as much as I did. Let's welcome Caroline to the stage.
Caroline Schiff:
Wow. Hi, everybody. My name is Caroline Schiff and I am so beyond excited to be here at Jubilee in person and it is so wonderful to see the whole Bombe Squad here. This is incredible. So for those of you who don't know me, I'm the executive pastry chef at Gage and Tollner in Brooklyn. Some of you might know me for my Baked Alaskas, which have become the signature dessert at Gage and Tollner, and I am also the author of the cookbook, The Sweet Side of Sourdough. I'm really thrilled to be here today to introduce the incredible, iconic Cheryl Day.
I know there are a lot of Cheryl Day fans in the room. I am one of the biggest ones. I was so, so excited when Kerry asked me to introduce her. Cheryl is joining us all the way from Savannah, where she is the co-founder of Back in the Day Bakery, a much loved local establishment, and it is on my bucket list. I've already told Cheryl I'm coming to visit her. She is also the founder of Janie Q Provisions, a small batch seasonal preserves line named for her mom I love so much. Cheryl is a self-taught scratch baker and a James Beard Award semi-finalist for Outstanding Pastry Chef. She is also the co-founder of Southern Restaurants for Racial Justice and founding member of the leadership committee for the James Beard Foundation Investment Fund for Black and Indigenous Americans. Cheryl's first solo cookbook, Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking, was released last year and Cheryl is a treasure herself, so I am so honored to welcome her to the stage. Everybody, Cheryl Day.
Cheryl Day:
It's so great to see everybody, I have to say. I'm just going to tell you a little story about myself. Legend has it that my very first sentence was, "Are you having a good time?" As I grew up, I became the girl who could always entertain a crowd with good food and conversation. Every weekend, my childhood home in Los Angeles became house party central. Folks often showed up on Friday and spent the entire weekend gathering at our house. These parties often lasted all weekend long because of my dad's famous poolside barbecues. My mom, Janie Queen, was a tall, regal, Black woman. She wore brightly colored kaftans and natural hair, long before it was fashionable. She made sure our guests always had a cold drink in their hands and felt welcomed at our home. And my sister and I, we learned to do the same at a very young age. My mom gets all the credit for teaching me the soul of Southern hospitality and the true joy of living life to the fullest every single day.
You see, I come from a long line of women who dared to follow their dreams. I am the descendant of Hannah Queen Rubs, who was born enslaved in this country in 1838 and she lived to be over a hundred years old. She opened the door for all the Queens in my family and, dare I say, she's opened the door for a lot of you as well. As a young girl, my mom taught me so many life lessons and what I now refer to as Janie Q-isms. She was my guiding light. She'd say, "Cheryl, stand up straight. Pull your shoulders back and walk tall when you enter the room. Arrive earlier and stay later than everybody else. Work harder and do more than it's expected," and perhaps my absolute favorite, "This or something better," meaning there are no mistakes and no one can ever take your good from you.
I always believed it was her gentle way of preparing me to be resilient to the obstacles that she knew I would face. She knew that I had to work twice as hard for half as much. Those Janie Q-isms also taught me how to embrace all the good that would come in my life. Sadly, she passed away when I was just 22 years old and as you can imagine, I was devastated. That was the most difficult time in my life. I just wanted to know what my life would look like without my mother to light my path along the way. I had to make some really serious choices at a time when honestly, I just wanted to feel sorry for myself and pull the covers over my head.
But as it turns out, I'm not built to fail. Life has a funny way of presenting you with obstacles and options that will take you through many twists and turns that absolutely make no sense at the time, but somehow leads you exactly where you should be. I left college and I could have fallen hard, but instead, I chose to rise. I made the choice to continue to dream of the beautiful life my mother worked so hard for me to enjoy.
By day, I worked as a receptionist in an architect's office. I found out I really enjoyed working with creative folks. And although my position as a receptionist was far from creative, I found a way to make it fun. Every day at lunch, I would go to the library and do research. To be honest, I had no real plan of action. Some days I would check out books about how to open up a business, but I couldn't decide what kind of business. The next day I would check out inspiring books about entrepreneurs or self-help books, even poetry to keep me motivated. But on most days, I would spend my lunch hour reading cookbooks. On the weekends I would bake or make jam and on Monday I loaded up my weekend treats to share with my coworkers at the office.
I really had no clue what I wanted to do, so I just kept living and learning. I knew I wanted to do something that would leave my mark on this world, something that would've made my mother proud of what I had become. I'm a deep thinker, and during this time, I started to really wonder what my true calling was. So on a whim, I went to a psychic. I asked her that pressing question, "Will I ever find my soulmate?" She held my hand and said, "Well, that's going to be a long while." And it was, but I did. But she said, "You are going to write books." I said, "Oh, okay. Well, I like books and I enjoy writing, so maybe that's my calling." And I remember questioning her, "What kind of books?" I just got really excited. She said I was going to write many, many popular books, and as if she had all the answers, she said, "Maybe like Erma Bombeck."
Now, I realize I'm dating myself now, but some of you may have to Google her. I remember thinking, "This reading is bullshit." I was like, "I spent a lot of time at the library and I never see anyone that looks like me on the cover of any of these books." But I continued writing in my journal and I kept a notebook anyway, which would come in handy much, much later.
Listen, there have been many, many times in my life where folks have tried to push me down, times when I felt I was not given the same opportunities as others just because of the color of my skin. I never let it stop me, though, from dreaming a bigger dream for myself, for brown and Black girls and for all girls, so that random research did pay off. I opened Back in the Day Bakery 20 years ago with my husband. As it turns out, it brought a great deal of pride in a neighborhood that really needed some love. I told myself, "Someday, I'm going to spread this love and make it easier for all the young Black and brown girls that would come after me." That time is now because I'm here.
So when I sent out to write Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking, which I can't believe they put my name on the book either, I decided that it was time to shine the light on the Black women who created Southern baking and I also gave myself permission to shine a light on myself. I have never felt more seen than when I wrote this book because I put my legacy on every single page. I am grateful to stand on the shoulders of my ancestors who came before me, and I'm determined to open the door wider to create more space on the bookshelves for women of color so that we will continue to rise.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Nigella Lawson for joining me today. Tickets are on sale right now for her North American Cook, Eat, Repeat cookbook tour. Check out our show notes for the ticket link. I have tickets for the Brooklyn stop with Ina. I am so excited and maybe I'll see some of you there. And thank you to Cheryl Day and Caroline Schiff for their beautiful words at Jubilee this year. You can find their cookbooks at your favorite cookbook store and taste what they're baking up IRL at Gage and Tollner restaurant in Brooklyn and Back in the Day Bakery in Savannah. If you'd like to join us for Jubilee 2023, early bird tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band Tra La La. Thank you, Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center, and thank you to our assistant producer Jenna Sadhu. And thanks to you for listening. You are the Bombe.