Ali Dunworth Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Today's guest is Ali Dunworth, joining me from a studio in Dublin, Ireland. Ali is the author of “A Compendium of Irish Pints: The Culture, Customs and Craic.” That's crack spelled C-R-A-I-C. Ali will tell us what that means in just a minute. She's a new friend of mine, so I am thrilled to welcome her to the show.
We cover a lot of ground on today's episode. We talk about the Gaelic revolution and why everyone is obsessed with Irish actors, musicians, authors, TV shows, fashion designers, even Irish butter these days. We also chat about the new Irish bank holiday, St. Brigid's Day, which celebrates the female patron saint of Ireland. It's nice to see St. Brigid get some equal billing alongside St. Patrick. Happy St. Brigid's Day to all who are celebrating. And of course, we talk about Irish pints, why it's so trendy in America to have a pint right now, and some pints etiquette that will come in handy on that future trip to Ireland. Stay tuned for my chat with Ali Dunworth.
Today's show is presented by Alex Mill, Radio Cherry Bombe's brand-new neighbor. They opened a cool new store at the world-famous Rockefeller Center in Manhattan, right next to where we record our show. I can literally see inside their store from where I'm sitting and be a nosy neighbor. What's the neighborhood gossip? Well, it looks like the spring collection has arrived at Alex Mill. I spy striped shirts, which I have a total weakness for, a USA-made sweatshirt in Cherry Bombe pink that I can dress up or down, lots of vintage-inspired denim, even the cutest pajamas from their P. Jimmy's collab with Jimmy Fallon. I'm a big Alex Mill fan and own several of their pieces that I wear again and again. Alex Mill is one of those brands that simplifies your closet. I can throw on any of their pieces and look cool, classic, and pulled together whether I've put on my Alex Mill slim cargo jeans or grabbed my monogram tote. I love that their clothing and accessories are thoughtfully designed, well-made, timeless, and fun. Alex Mill is all about that perfect for fave; not more clothes, but the right clothes. I have a feeling Alex Mill is going to be a great neighbor. Sure, I won't be able to borrow a cup of sugar or an egg from them, but when my spring wardrobe needs a little something, Alex Mill has me covered. If you find yourself in Manhattan, swing by Alex Mill at Rockefeller Center and tell them Cherry Bombe sent you, or visit alexmill.com.
Some Cherry Bombe housekeeping. You just have a few days left to snag a subscription to our beautiful print magazine and receive our new issue. The theme is love, and I love our cover stars, the Maher sisters. There's Olympic rugby champ, Ilona Maher, Girl Dinner founder and TikTok sensation, Livy Maher, and humanitarian Adrianna Maher. Read all about them and check out our exclusive photo portfolio. Also inside the mag, you'll find our Galentine's Day gift guide and lots of recipes, yes, you will love. Visit cherrybombe.com for more details.
Now let's check in with today's guest. Ali Dunworth, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Ali Dunworth:
Thanks. It's great to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
You were so kind to have breakfast with me and bring me your book and tell me what's going on in Dublin and the Irish food scene, so I was really excited that you agreed to come on the show.
Ali Dunworth:
We were so excited. And my publisher was with us as well, and yeah, I think we both had messaged you because we were like, "Oh my god, Kerry from Cherry Bombe is in town." That's the brilliant thing about Instagram, I think. You can really connect to people in a way that you might not have done before.
Kerry Diamond:
My first question for you, how does it feel to be the world's leading authority on pints?
Ali Dunworth:
Thank you for saying that, but I think... You've been in Ireland. I think everyone in Ireland who drinks pints is an expert on pints. And I do talk about that a little bit in my book. But I suppose what I've done is I'm an expert in my area, which is I think I've tried to capture the culture of drinking pints in Ireland and the pub culture from my perspective, which is a woman's perspective which hasn't been done very often. And it's not really female focused. You've read it. But yeah, I think I'm an authority on I suppose the last maybe few decades of drinking in Ireland. And then I try and bring in experts in the other areas. But yeah, it's a good thing to be able to say I literally wrote the book on pints.
Kerry Diamond:
Your book is called “A Compendium of Irish Pints: The Culture, Customs and”... I can't say the word. Craic? Craic?
Ali Dunworth:
Craic.
Kerry Diamond:
Like a crack in the sidewalk. Okay. Craic.
Ali Dunworth:
And yeah, another crack. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
But it's spelled, for all of you out there, C-R-A-I-C.
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What does craic mean?
Ali Dunworth:
Craic is just the Irish word for, I don't know, devilment fun. It doesn't have a direct translation to English. If you say it to an Irish person, they know exactly what you mean. "That person is good craic," you could say. That would mean they were going to be good fun. Or you could say, "What's the craic?" And that's like, "What's happening? What's the story?" And you can use it in loads of different ways. I think it's the same, when you were here, I don't know if anyone would say grand to you. And that can mean so many different things. Yeah, craic is C-R-A-I-C, but I think it's particularly when Americans come, they get a great laugh out of it because it obviously means different things in the states.
Kerry Diamond:
I will not be peppering that into my daily vocabulary, but I might use grand a little bit more than I do use it. I love that word. I did hear craic on “Bad Sisters.”
Ali Dunworth:
Oh yeah, they would.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you watch “Bad Sisters?”
Ali Dunworth:
Yes, yes, they would definitely say it. Yeah, on “Bad Sisters” she's kept in some of the vocabulary, but then it's funny when you're watching it that some of the words are changed for the international audience because they're talking about, there's a lot of police in it obviously, but we'd obviously say the guards, we'd never say police in Ireland. It's interesting what words she keeps in for what references.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, we've covered craic. Everybody knows what craic means now. And why Irish pints versus just pints. Isn't a pint a pint?
Ali Dunworth:
No, that was a big, I suppose, reason I wanted to write the book as well. I think that I'd lived in the UK for over a decade, and when you come home, the thing you always want to do is go for pints and you want to go to the pub. And you've been here and you understand the difference. Sometimes it's intangible. The pub might look similar to a pub in the U.K. to a pub in Ireland, but the best way I describe it is you don't really question why when you go to France it's all about the food and the restaurants because the French created the backbone of restaurants as we know it, and modern dining. And I think Ireland, it's the pints; we've done the same thing.
There's so many things different to a U.K. or even an American pub like the size of the pints, the drinks, the welcome, it's the service, it's the decor, it's the kind of warmth. And it's really easy. And I think the pubs in Ireland are really democratic spaces. Anyone can feel comfortable in a pub in Ireland. It doesn't always feel like it's a drinking place; it's a little bit of everything to everybody. I think that's calling it Irish pints because I wanted to be very specific that I'm just talking about how we are in pubs and how we do things.
Kerry Diamond:
How did this book come about? And why were you the one to write it?
Ali Dunworth:
I have been an avid pubgoer from a very young age. I think I've always been obsessed with the pub. My parents weren't big pubgoers. We would go very... Not very often, but I've always just loved the idea of you might go when you were younger. I have a chapter in this, Ecumenical Pints, about religious occasions. And you go to pubs a lot for funerals, christenings, and weddings. They'd be your introduction as a child. I just was always fascinated that it's when everyone got together, told stories, caught up, had the craic.
And then I'd be riding for the last few decades as well, and especially when I've been back in Ireland over the last 10 years, I've written a lot about pub culture because I've noticed that there's a worry about the pubs. Pubs are closing. Rural pubs are in decline. I just wrote about that a lot. I got quite passionate about it, I read more books about it, I met more people who were interested in it. And I was drinking pints when I pitched it to my publisher, Kristin Jensen at an event. And I just went on about how great pints were, pints, pints, pints. And she said, "Is there a book in this?" I was like, "Yes." As a food writer I would have ever had a cookbook in me because I use other people's recipes, I'm not a chef, but to figure out what your book is was really exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
That makes me a little sad that pub culture is disappearing.
Ali Dunworth:
It is and it isn't because at the same time it's having a huge resurgence. You were in Dublin. If you go to Dublin, from the end of November until Christmas, every pub in the city center is heaving. But at the same time, there's pubs in the countryside; they used to be passed down from generation to generation. And a difference in Irish pubs to maybe... I don't know what it's like in the States, but in the U.K. they're often owned by breweries. In Ireland, they're owned by one person, they're family owned usually, and they get passed down. And people don't really want to go into that business anymore, it's very difficult, so you might lose them generationally or you might be losing them financially.
Yeah, I do talk a lot about there should be some more supports for it, but because it's seen as the alcohol industry and that's not thought about in a cultural perspective, you don't really think about trying to save the pubs. And there's not really enough support out there for them. I wrote a little bit in the book about an architect called Róisín Murphy who had done a TV show where she suggested that Ireland should apply for the UNESCO Intangible Heritage like the way Berlin have for clubs or France has for baguettes. And I think the Vintners Association, who runs some of our pub group here, have applied, but I don't know how realistic that is because of that association with alcohol. But if Berlin can do it for clubs, I don't know why we can't do it for pubs.
Kerry Diamond:
I'll be right back with today's guest. Jubilee is coming up. It's happening Saturday, April 12th in Manhattan. You can purchase a ticket and come as a guest or apply to be a Jubilee scholar or a Jubilee volunteer. You can find all the information under the Jubilee tab on cherrybombe.com. It's a beautiful day of connection and community and feminine energy, something we all need right now. There's also lots of great food and drink from your favorite brands and culinary creatives. The team and I would love to see you there. If you're a Bombesquad member, make sure to use your member discount. Not a Bombesquad member? You can learn more about that on cherrybombe.com as well.
I completely outed myself as a tourist when I split the G in that Dublin pub that I went to. Tell people what splitting the G is.
Ali Dunworth:
Splitting the G is when you get your pint of Guinness, and you usually get it... There's different glasses. You particularly want a tulip glass I don't know how far down. You've got Guinness and you've got a harp on it, and the idea is you take a big enough gulp at the start in one go; when you put it down, your beer should hit the middle of the G. You've essentially split the G on the writing on the glass. And the reason we don't really do it is because it's way too big of a gulp. You're drinking almost a third or a quarter of the pint in one go, and it's a bit of an effort. Whereas you should take a good sup the first time you take... Your first sup of your pint should be good. And I think that's a mistake people make in their first pint; if they haven't had it before, they take a little sip. If you don't drink through the head, you're going to get a bit of bitterness, but if you drink right through, you'll get a nicer, smoother drink. But you don't need to drink it all the way down to the G, that is. But if you want to do it for social media, that's fine.
Kerry Diamond:
I get half pints when I go out because I just can't do a full pint. I do a half pint of Guinness, and I failed to split the G with even a half pint.
Ali Dunworth:
That's okay. It's not a fail, it's the Irish in you rejecting it.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I want to talk about that New York Times story because I had missed it until you pointed it out to me. The Times published a story in December about the popularity of Guinness, the famous Irish stout, and there was a line in there that you took offense with. It said, "Guinness is the beer of Irish pubs and Irishmen." What did the Times get wrong there?
Ali Dunworth:
Well, that it belonged to Irish men because, yes, it's the Irish pubs, but it's just for Irish drinkers. In writing the book, it was really apparent to me that most of the books and literature that has been written about pubs is written from man's perspective and is written by men. I became more conscious of that because I am a writer, I work in media, and I know that those little changes in language are the things that make the difference. Using diverse, inclusive, equal language in your writing is really, really important, so putting a headline like that in, I was like, "Oh my god." And so many people tagged me and sent it to me, so I said, "I'm not just going to give out about it on Instagram; I will go and message the journalist." His name was Luke Fortney. I messaged him on Instagram, and he replied to me. And he was like, "I'm so sorry." He hadn't written that in the copy, but whoever was, sub-editors were doing the headlines, they put that in there. He did try and get that changed. And it changed maybe online, but it didn't change on the social media posts because it was too late. And I understand that because there's oftentimes when I've written an article and it's gone to print with a headline that doesn't reflect what I've written, and it can be very frustrating.
Kerry Diamond:
I think they changed the caption. I think they changed the caption to older men, but they kept the Irishman in the subhead of the article. Well, Luke, we won't hold it against you then for that, for his headline.
Ali Dunworth:
No, he was really lovely about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I did leave a comment on the story and I mentioned your name. I said, "New York Times, you need to talk to Ali next time." Before we get into some of the etiquette of pints, what is stout?
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah, Stout is just in the ale family, so it's just an ale that's brewed with dark, maybe with roasted malts and oats. It will be a darker beer and usually a little bit heavier and creamier. For the most part when we talk about stout, most people will think of Guinness, but it goes from lighter porters all the way up to imperial states, which are usually really heavy and strong and big and malty. And they can be 10%, 12% in alcohol. They're a different experience. Guinness is a roasty, I suppose. There's a perception that it's heavy, and it's not. If you have a pint of Guinness or a pint of lager, a lager in Ireland anyway, it's usually stronger in alcohol. And I think it's harder to drink. It's a bit gasier.
Kerry Diamond:
As you know, not everybody is drinking these days. Zero Zero; is that the non-alcoholic Guinness?
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah, non-alcoholic low and no, as we call it, has been huge in Ireland in the last few years. There's even been a couple of bars open that don't serve alcohol. Now, they don't always do very well, but the idea of it is there because enough different drinks to support them and enough interest. But Zero Zero is Guinness' version. And they brought that out maybe a couple of years ago. It's fantastic. I think that of the non-alcoholic drinks, beers are the best option anyway because you can drink a really hoppy pale ale and you don't really notice that the alcohol's not in it. And for the most part, it's pretty tasty. And I was out with someone the other day who was in the pub and had a pint that was half Zero Zero and half regular Guinness.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so interesting. I did try the Zero Zero. I went out with a friend before we went to Gráinne O'Keefe's Mae restaurant, and we had Zero Zeros at the pub.
Ali Dunworth:
There's still pubs now where they laugh at you and they don't want to stalk us, but I think that attitude is changing because if someone wants to come into your pub, it's the same price, it's not much difference, so let them come in and let them drink Zero Zero.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about all the etiquette. I have so many etiquette questions. Like I said, I usually get a half pint. Is it embarrassing to order a half pint?
Ali Dunworth:
It shouldn't be. I have a chapter in the book called... It's just about half pints, and it's justice for the half pint. For a long time, people would be really mean and disparaging about... And you'd never call it a half pint, really, you'd call it a glass. You'd say, "I'll have a glass of Guinness," or a glass of whatever. You probably got it in the cute little tulip glass, the same shape as the pint glass. But for a long time, there were these longer... They're quite ladylike, so there would've been a perception that people would've said... If you ordered a half pint and you were a guy, they'd be like, "Who's that for, your ma?" Or they would slag you off for drinking it. But not a lot of people would order half pints. I think some people would prefer to drink their pint and leave half of it if they didn't want to finish it. And there was a long time where pubs would charge you more for half pints. It didn't make financial sense.
But I would say if you want to drink a half pint, drink a half pint. I know quite a few friends who just are unable. They just can't keep up, and they're just like, "I want to stay out, and I'll just stick on my half pint." Justice for the half pints.
Kerry Diamond:
When I order though, I should say a glass.
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah, well, they're going to know what you mean but we would say a glass, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you go to a pub by yourself?
Ali Dunworth:
100%. Yeah. I say that but I wrote something for a paper a few months ago, and it was about the way that I would try to encourage women to go to the pub on their own all the time, and it's okay. But actually, even though I write about it and I do it, I still have to convince myself to do it. I say it's like getting into the cold water for a swim. You know when you get in there, it's going to be gorgeous but you still have to convince yourself you have to do it. It's a bit like that sometimes going into some of the pubs on your own.
Because my favorite kind of pub and probably your favorite kind of pub and anyone who visits Ireland is what we call an old man's pub. They are spaces for men originally, and some of them still feel like that. And you might walk in; people might turn around and look at you. And it might be a lads sitting at the bar. Now, that is over in a few seconds, and people are friendly and lovely and it's fine, but there is a little bit of... I don't know, there's a little bit of convincing you need to do each time. But go to the pub on your own, yeah. Bring a book or do your Wordle. Most of our staff at Ireland will want to chat to you or will have a chat with you if you like.
Kerry Diamond:
And if you go with a bunch of friends, can you just nurse a pint throughout the night? Is there pressure to keep ordering if you just want to go there and hang out?
Ali Dunworth:
At one point. First of all, no because that would not taste good. A chapter or a part of the book I have had a lot of conversations about is the chapter on rounds. And the Irish Times printed it as an extract, and I got so many messages from people who are maybe married to someone Irish and live here or abroad or have always tried to figure out what a round is and what are the rules?
Now, it's also something that there's so many rules, it was difficult to write it down, but basically if you're in a round, you have to stay in a round. And the round means if there's another person with you, you take turns to buy the drink. If I go to the pub with you, I'd be like, "I get the first round." That means you now owe me a round. Usually, that means you have to stay for another pint. Now, they can balance itself out. And one of my friends gave me a great quote which was, "Drink karma." She's a publican. And she was like, "Don't be worrying if it's uneven because drink karma in Ireland, that pint always comes back to you." Because there'll always be times where you have bought more rounds than the other person.
That's why pints are great because if everyone's drinking pints, it's all similar price. But if you walk into a group of six people and you're drinking top shelf whiskey or a fancy gin and tonic and that's twice the price of the pints, you might go off into your own round with someone else if there's someone else there who wants to drink that. But you wouldn't want to be taking the piss and drinking something really expensive.
And all of this is unwritten, so that's why it was hard to write it down because I was like, we all know it intrinsically; you learn it from when you start going to the pub. It's just unspoken. And there's always someone watching you. There's always someone who cares more about the rounds than the other person. Yeah, just if in doubt, err on the side of being overly generous and you will be fine. Because in Ireland, I think one of our biggest fears is being thought of as tight, being mean or not having paid your way. We all have a big fear of being seen as that person.
Kerry Diamond:
How about tipping culture? Tipping culture in Ireland is very different from ours here in America.
Ali Dunworth:
Oh my God, yeah. And I feel bad sometimes when we go to America because we maybe don't... I worked in service for years, so I will always tip, but the norm to tip here is 10%. That's just the norm. And you would only ever tip over, like 20% if it was exceptional or you had loads of money. And a lot of the times, now service charge is included, and then we don't really know what to do and it's all very awkward, so sometimes you just over tip. And some people just don't tip at all. There's definitely people I know. And same with the thing with the rounds. If I'm going out for dinner with someone and someone has given out a good service and doesn't want to tip people just because there wasn't exceptional service, I'm like, "I don't really want to go out for dinner with you again." Makes me feel work awkward. But yeah, you're probably tipping everybody when you're here. They're probably delighted. They love seeing the Americans coming.
Kerry Diamond:
I was tipping everybody, yes. When you toast someone in Ireland, you don't say, "Cheers," you say, "Sláinte." And I want to make sure, again, I'm pronouncing that correctly, because I don't want to steer anybody wrong who might come visit you all in Ireland.
Ali Dunworth:
It's good, but sláinte.
Kerry Diamond:
Sláinte.
Ali Dunworth:
Sláinte. Generally, I think to make anything sound Irish, if you elongate the vowels, you get there. But sláinte. Yeah, it means health. When you're saying, "Sláinte," you're saying, "To your health." It's a nice blessing to give. People say, "Cheers," as well, but I would always say, "Sláinte." There's been a big, I suppose, Gaelic revival in Ireland, and a lot more people are getting back into using the language as much as they can in an everyday sense. Not a lot of us can speak it fluently, but it's really nice. We say, "Cúpla focail," which means a few words. If you can put a few cúpla focail in during the day... And stuff like sláinte we all do anyway and we don't even realize that we're using the Irish language, so it's a cool thing to do.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so slan. It's more like lawn. Sláinte.
Ali Dunworth:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you do that at the start of every round?
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah, you would do that when you get your drink, yeah. You just do a sláinte and cheers. Yeah, it's nice to do it. It's polite.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a favorite pub in Dublin? What would you call your regular spot?
Ali Dunworth:
A local.
Kerry Diamond:
A local? A local. Do you have a local?
Ali Dunworth:
I would drink more in the city than right beside where I live. I don't live very far from the city, so I suppose I'd have frequent pubs. I'd have a local back in my hometown of Maynooth, we go to a pub called The Roost. That's a really nice pub. But in town, like in Dublin... When I say town, I mean Dublin. There is so many good pubs. It's really hard. I get asked this question a lot, especially since I've written the book, and I say it's really subjective because it depends on who you're with, the time of day and where you are. But I do have a couple of favorites. There's a pub called The Gravediggers. I don't know if you've heard of that. That's over in Glasnevin. And it's called The Gravediggers because it's right beside Glasnevin Cemetery. It's beside a big, very important graveyard. And it's wonderful. I think it's almost 200 years old and it's seventh generation, so it's the same family. And it's pretty much untouched inside. And that's a local. A few of my friends are from around there. That's a great pub.
You'll find this about some of the pubs in Dublin; they can be a really touristy spot. Because everyone goes to The Gravediggers; tourists love it. But it's also the same locals in there all the time as well. It's really nice. Anthony Bourdain went there. That's probably why it became so famous on the tourist trail. And he signed the guest book, so it's pretty cool. That's an absolute must. Plus they serve food in the bar adjacent, and they do coddle. Did you have coddle when you were here? And do you know what it is?
Kerry Diamond:
Mm-mm. No. Tell us.
Ali Dunworth:
Oh, my God. Coddle is a traditional Dublin dish. And it's basically broth with sausages and bacon in it. But people have an issue with it, even Irish people because you don't color the bacon and the sausage. They look like they're raw, but they're not. There's no color on it. Some people will color them, but they say that's not traditional. Now, I wasn't brought up in a coddle household, so I'm not an expert, but I did host a coddle competition a couple of years ago at a festival, and we called, Give us a Cuddle; give us a coddle. And were very competitive. That's a good experience. Go to The Gravediggers, go for coddle in the restaurant you part next door, and then go for your pint in the bar side when you go there. It's great pub.
In Dublin, I always send people to Grogan's. I would definitely prefer a pub that is a grumpy person behind the bar maybe and carpets on the floor and no music, no television.
Kerry Diamond:
No music.
Ali Dunworth:
No. Somewhere like The Gravediggers…you'd never have anything like that. No.
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't-
Ali Dunworth:
Most of the pubs you wouldn't have music in them, of the old man's pubs, the traditional pubs.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I didn't realize that. Okay. And then talk a little bit more about food. Do all pubs serve food?
Ali Dunworth:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
I know I've seen bags of potato chips, but pubs generally don't serve food?
Ali Dunworth:
No, the old school pubs, the one I was talking about, Grogan's would be really well known for serving toasties. You go to Grogan's for a pint and a toasty. And they do that behind the bar. They have a big pile of them made up. Sometimes they're already pre-made in a plastic bag. And it's sliced pan, so commercial sliced bread, and then easy singles. I don't know what you call it there. It's just-
Kerry Diamond:
We have Kraft Singles. Yeah.
Ali Dunworth:
It would be like Kraft Singles. And it'd be like ham and it might be a bit of mustard. And you'd have that with your pint. And that's a really traditional Irish thing, but we don't have a food culture in pubs in the same way they might do in the U.K., which is amazing. They're really good, faster pubs. And they do Sunday roasts. And we definitely have some pubs like that in Ireland, they're really, really good, but for the most part, you're getting a toasty and you're getting crisps and peanuts. And the crisps are very specific. Usually you've got Tayto, you've got King, or you've got Manhattan. And different pubs will have different variations on that.
Kerry Diamond:
Are those brands or flavors?
Ali Dunworth:
They're brands. You'll always just have cheese and onion or salt and vinegar for the most part. Cheese and onion flavoring was invented in Dublin. Tayto, which is our most famous, I suppose. In the way you think Guinness is the national drink of Ireland, cheese onion Tayto would be the national snack of Ireland.
Kerry Diamond:
I have never had a cheese and onion potato chip, so I've got a lot to do when I... You're covering your mouth. You're shocked.
Ali Dunworth:
Because I'm in shock because did you not have a Tayto sandwich?
Kerry Diamond:
No, no. What is a Tayto sandwich?
Ali Dunworth:
That's a big deal. You'd have that when you go home from the pub. After you've had a few pints and you want to snack when you go home, you'll get out the sliced pan, the butter, and you put the Tayto inside and you just squish it up and eat it. It's absolutely delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, go back to the toasty for one second. A Kraft Single is not great cheese. It's just processed.
Ali Dunworth:
It's so unimpressive, but it's like-
Kerry Diamond:
It's the same. Okay, okay.
Ali Dunworth:
It's really unimpressive. It's not good food. You go to this place, Groven's, and they're just throwing them on. Literally, they'll be able to pour five pints of Guinness at one go, and they put on the toasty at the same time and it will be lobbed out to you. You used to get a little jar of mustard beside it as well, but now they do sachets. They stopped doing the jars in COVID when you couldn't share everything. We used to get a jar like Coleman's English Mustards. Delicious. But they're really-
Kerry Diamond:
I love Coleman's Mustard. I was going to ask if you got mustard with it, because that can save a bad sandwich.
Ali Dunworth:
They do a job. The illustrations in my book are from a guy called Stephen Heffernan. We call him Heffy. And he really understands that pint culture and humor. And he has a famous illustration that I saw someone the other day got tattooed on their body. And it's like a cloche being lifted with packets of crisps underneath, and it says, "Crisps for dinner." If you're in the pub, you're like, "I want to stay out for a few drinks<' and you're not going to have dinner, you'll either eat some crisps or you'll have a toasty.
There is pubs doing great versions, more artisan versions, and they're amazing. I did an article a few months ago with 20 pubs around Ireland to have that quintessential toasty and pint experience. And I have to say, most of them were those real basic toasties. And I wouldn't eat that at home, but I love to eat it in the pub. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll have to link to that article in our show notes. If folks, you're looking for it, that's where you can find it. St. Brigid's Day. This is one of the reasons we're having you on this episode today. And by the way, happy St. Brigid's Day. It is normally February 1st, but because it fell on a weekend, it is being celebrated today. When we had that great breakfast, you told me as of a few years ago, Ireland has a new bank holiday, and it's St. Brigid's Day. And I had never heard of that. Can you tell us who is St. Brigid?
Ali Dunworth:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And why is she finally being recognized?
Ali Dunworth:
She's incredible. We love her. We say la Fela Brida. That's the Festival of Brigid. Okay, let's say the whole weekend has been dedicated to Brigid, Brida, Brydie. She has so many versions of her name, and you can spell it so many different ways. But basically we have three patron saints. Everyone in the States knows about St. Patrick's Day, which happens obviously on the 17th of March, and it's celebrated all over the world. Some would say celebrated more in the States than it is anywhere else in the world. I love that America goes crazy for St. Patrick's Day. But we also have two other Patron saints who are St. Brigid and St. Columbkille, I don't know much about Columbkille, but I knew a good bit about Brigid because in the last few years, there's been a Gaelic revival in a way where a lot of people have got back into, I suppose, learning more about old Ireland and traditions and customs and rituals.
We're still very connected to the old world. This St. Brigid is actually another figure who is Goddess Brigid. We still have a lot of knowledge and conversation in Ireland around pre-Christian Ireland, the Pagan and Celtic Ireland. Brigid would've been a big part of that. And the 1st of February is actually Imbolc is the first day of spring in the pre-Christian calendar. When we would've had the Pagan calendar, it would've been the four calendar days, and this would be the first one. It's also Brigid's Day, Brigid's Eve. They gave us the bank holiday to celebrate it three years ago, I think. This is the third year. It was like after COVID, I think it was like well done, everybody, for staying inside and wearing your masks, for the most part; here is a bank holiday. It's, I suppose, give us something to look forward to or celebrate. And it's a really nice time of year.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought they felt that it was time to celebrate a female saint who was also the patron saint of Ireland.
Ali Dunworth:
It was both. The bank holiday felt like we got it after COVID, but there's been people campaigning for Brigid to have recognition. That's always been her day, but to have it recognized as a national holiday, there's been people campaigning for that for years and years and years, and then you finally got it.
But she's really amazing. As someone who's in food and drink and a woman, she's amazing because she's like a feminist icon. And the stories about her are amazing. And there's loads of food and drink stories. I was talking about them the other day on the radio, and actually, I'm doing an event in Dublin to celebrate Brigid's table we've called it. We're talking about all the food and drink associations and miracles that she has. She has a lot of beer associations, which is brilliant. She's the patron saint of beer, the patron saint of dairy, of shellfish, of nuns, fugitives, sailors, fishermen. And she was charitable.
I say if she was around to this day, she'd be a really big influencer like slashy because she kind of is in every industry and everybody liked her and she looked after everybody. But in the beer stories, she was meant to be very miraculous. She was brewing beer one Easter and they didn't have enough malts and they didn't have enough water, and then she looked at her divine connections and she made enough beer out of this small amount for nine days for 18 churches. And there's stories of her looking after some lepers who ran out of beer. And beer would've been drank more for nourishments than for the sesh back then. She partly turned their dirty bath water into beer. She's very famous for that.
Two friends of mine who are brewers and publicans and big into drink, they're amazing, Judith and Susan Boyle, they just brewed their own beer Brigid's Ale. And that's available in pubs and from their pub. Yeah, it's cool to see the connections. I think every year it's growing. And I'm trying every year to do something food and drink wise around Brigid to spread the word. But it's also a great opportunity to talk about artisan Irish food and drinks and to talk about loads of women that are doing amazing things in the industry that you have a feeling if Brigid was around, she would've been supporting them as well. Yeah, we love her.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I love that there's equal opportunity now for the Patron Saints of Ireland. You've called it the Gaelic Revolution a few times. Ireland is having such a big moment right now, especially in America. Everyone is obsessed with your actors, your fashion designers like Simone Rocha, authors like Sally Rooney, everybody's obsessed with Sally Rooney, Kerrygold butter, Hozier. And we talked about “Bad Sisters” already. I absolutely adore “Bad Sisters,” and that was a big hit. Half the people listening to the show want to attend the Ballymaloe Cookery School. Ali, from your perspective, what is going on? Why are the Irish taking over culture right now?
Ali Dunworth:
I don't really know. We're delighted by it. I know there was that cover... Was it the New York Magazine?
Kerry Diamond:
There was a story in New York Magazine.
Ali Dunworth:
And there was a beautiful cover. It was illustration. And it had Paul Mescal and it had Saoirse Ronan and it had everybody on it. I suppose we're very proud people, so it's very cool to have the whole world all of a sudden be like, "Oh my God, Ireland's amazing." I don't know if it's that we got confidence. I think when I was growing up in the '80s, the thing you aspired to do was go to America. We were always outward looking for our culture and for inspiration. We'd look to the U.K., we'd look to America. People would emigrate all the time. I think that's changed partly because then we did very well for ourselves. But I think now you realize actually looking inward, we actually have loads of stuff to celebrate here and we have incredible creativity and incredible artists and incredible... It's always been like a nation of storytelling. And that came from being an oppressed and invaded country. And we weren't allowed to speak our language, and we got used to telling our stories creatively through music and through stories and through plays.
I suppose that's all come to fruition in a way that we appreciate now. And I think the country supports creativity, but it's basically really nice. And it's nice that we celebrate being Irish now. But not just that, the whole world celebrates being Irish. And I think from an American perspective, it's nice to see Americans appreciate modern Ireland because I think for a long time, the impression of Ireland in America was quite twee.
Kerry Diamond:
Before we do the speed round, few more questions. I want to talk about women on the food scene because every time I come to Ireland, I learn about more incredible women. Like I mentioned, Gráinne O'Keefe; I finally got the chance to eat at Mae in Dublin. That's M-A-E. Had a really beautiful evening there. The food was fabulous. And Gráinne just put out a cookbook, which is really exciting. Then there's Jess at KAI in Galway. I could go on and on and on. But any favorites of yours we should mention?
Ali Dunworth:
Well, they're two people I adore and their cooking is amazing. I've done different events with Gráinne, and she's a brilliant chef, but she's also incredible to work with; so organized. And she makes everything look effortless. I would say someone you 100% have to go to her restaurant is Aishling Moore. She has a restaurant in Cork called Goldie, and she only serves fish. And it's fin to tail. She only buys what comes in off the boats that day, and that's it. And how she runs her business is incredible, how she treats her team is incredible. Her food tastes amazing. And she is one of those people that brings everybody up with her. She brought out one of the Blasta Books, which are a range of cookbooks that my publisher does as well. And she brought one out last year called “Whole Catch.” And it's been really successful. And it's just got gorgeous fish recipes.
There's a chef called Christine Walsh who's amazing. She's not based in Ireland; she's cooking in London at the moment. But when she was here, she was cooking in Galway. What's really interesting about Christine is brilliant chef. Again, I worked with her a few times. But she is now head chef in an African Michelin-starred restaurant in Central London. I was like, "How did you learn?" But she's gone to Africa with her executive chef and she's introduced her to all the flavors and the spices and the recipes, so it's really cool. She's brilliant.
Another chef I love is Nicole Server. She's actually from the Philippines, but she's been here I'd say 20 years. She's married to a Polish guy, Bart. They are the most fun, brilliant couple. And they have a place in Kilkenny called Arán, and it's a bakery. He bakes and she cooks. And they cook the most delicious food. And she's a person who doesn't shout about what she does at all. She's very much behind the scenes. She barely uses social media.
Another chef I love is Mags Roche. And I saw her recently. She has a cafe called Little Acorn in Baltinglass in Wicklow. She cooked in London for years in all the top places and came home and opens this cafe. But she's classically trained in London, so if you're going to eat a sandwich in her cafe, there's 50 elements in the sandwich that you don't even realize. Everything's made from scratch. She's only using good ingredients. And I saw her the other day, and the minute I see her, I think of this roast beef sandwich that she does. And it's one of the nicest things I've ever eaten.
And then you've got the younger chefs coming up. There's a cool chef in Dublin. Actually, she cooked with Gráinne for years. Leticia Miranda; she's Brazilian. She was a finalist in the Young Chef Competition. She's now working another restaurant in Dublin. And she's doing a Brazilian pop-up in that restaurant, which is cool. I'm going to be biased and say one of my friends, Hilary, who is the pastry chef down in Ballymaloe with... You know JR Ryall. Yeah?
Kerry Diamond:
Mm-hmm.
Ali Dunworth:
I think you've interviewed him.
Kerry Diamond:
Yep, JR's going to be on our baking podcast in a little while.
Ali Dunworth:
But JR is incredible. He brought out that beautiful book a few years ago, “Ballymaloe Desserts.” But Hilary works with him now in the pastry kitchen, and she is amazing. She just bakes the most interesting things. She used to have a doughnut company in Dublin. And everything she bakes is amazing. She's one to watch because I'd say she'll do more exciting things. Yeah.
There's a great chef up the north, Melissa McCabe who was on “Great British Menu.” And she has opened her own place up north called Feast. And up north as well, you've got Shauna Froydenlund who is from Derry. She worked for Marcus Wareing in London for a long time. For 15 years, her and her husband, they were chef proprietor of Wareing in London with two stars, and they've moved back to Derry. It's the walled city, and they're opening a restaurant in the wall, in the medieval wall of the city almost. It's an incredible location. I'm going up there in a few weeks, and hopefully we'll check in on their progress. But that's going to be one to watch. There's so many.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so exciting to hear because it wasn't always the case in Ireland.
Ali Dunworth:
No, it wasn't always the case and it's still a struggle. As well as writing, I curate a lot of events and I battle, and I have done for the last 10 years that I've been doing it to make the organizers be really conscious of making the lineups equal. I want representation on there. I want it to be 50/50 men and women. And it wasn't when started out, and it was really hard. I'd ring Jess and I'd ring Gráinne because they'd be the leaders and go, "Give me girls, give me girls' names. Let me know who can I ask." And even when I'm writing, I'm looking for quotes, I'm really conscious that I'm not just getting men, recipes from men, not just the same thing. And Jess would be very supportive in that I ring her and she'll send me back 10 names.
Because people like me and other media have made that effort in the last 10 years, it's made a difference because there's that whole thing if you can't see it, you can't be it. When you see Leticia, I'm talking about her, she's really good because she's well able to put herself out there. And she enters competitions. It's great. There has to be the chefs doing that as well. The men have no problem. They don't think twice. A man doesn't think twice about getting his photo taken, but a girl does. That's just the way we are. A man is like, "I'm in my chef's whites." You know the pose. "I'm going to fold my arms and I'm going to look really coo,l and that's my photo." Whereas a woman, not every woman, but most of us are going to be like, "Oh God, I didn't wash my hair or I don't have any mascara on today." And it means there's not as many images of women in the industry as we would like there to be.
Kerry Diamond:
I think it's also because women are open to a little bit more criticism from the general public than guys are.
Ali Dunworth:
Oh my God, 100%. And that's why I love what Gráinne's done. I don't know if you've seen her book, but she took the photos with this photographer called Ruth Calder-Potts who is amazing. Gráinne's cookbook is like nothing I've seen because they're pictures of her. She loves Christian Louboutin, she loves her heels, and she'll take pictures of herself. She's got long blonde hair with her heels on sitting in the porch of her door. They're really casual. There's not pose. She didn't say, "I have to look like a chef to be taken seriously in my food." She's like, "This is what I like and this is how I cook." And it really shows her personality. I love that she's done that because it's something that looks different and we haven't seen in a cookbook before. I like more of that and more people being that confident.
And Jess would be the same, actually. Jess is really good at taking photos, and she always looks very cool in her photos. She always has color and she might have a headband on. They would encourage other people. And I think we all have to say to each other, "Just take the bloody picture," even though I hate taking photos, but I'm always like, I'll just do them. And especially with the book promo, oh my God, I had to just force myself to have this bank of photos. And now I see that same photo of me with a pint every couple of weeks, and I'm so sick of it, but I understand.
Kerry Diamond:
But you're right, take the bloody picture.
Ali Dunworth:
I understand it serves a purpose. As a journalist, if you want to feature somebody... My editor doesn't care if you have a good story; if you don't give me a good picture these days they are not interested in featuring you. They don't have money either. Back in the old days, you'd assume that they're going to send a photographer, but in Ireland things are so tight. It's like you have to have... It's worth investing. It's worth finding.
Again, I mentioned Ruth Calder-Potts. There's a couple of other Irish photographers that have really nice relationships with the women in food, and we all rely on them. And some of us get together and go, "Do you want to do a photo shoot with Mel, two or three of us together?" And she'll give us a really good deal. And then we've done the photos for two years and we have that to promote ourselves.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a great piece of PR advice because a lot of folks just don't have photos, and it will hurt you because of the reasons you just mentioned. Media outlets are not paying for photographers anymore to go take pictures; they want pictures to be provided. And I always say if you are spending the money to do some kind of photo session, bring a change of wardrobe. Have something warm weather, something not. You don't want to have the same outfit on in every single photo because you can just use them twice as much if you don't. That's my little piece of advice. Let's do an abbreviated speed round. Tell me what beverage you start the day with.
Ali Dunworth:
Always a cup of Barry's Tea. You know about Irish tea. It has to be Barry's Tea. And yeah, there's no other way to start the day.
Kerry Diamond:
Yep. Because of you, I bought some Barry's Tea at the airport.
Ali Dunworth:
Oh, good.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you take it?
Ali Dunworth:
I've been embarrassed because I posted a picture of it recently and I got loads of flack because it looked quite weak. And I don't take it too strong because I like to have three or four cups of it in the morning. But yeah, just obviously with milk. Is that the question?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Ali Dunworth:
Because in Ireland, you would nearly always put milk in your tea. People who don't put milk in I'm a bit suspicious of.
Kerry Diamond:
How about sugar? Does anyone put sugar in their tea?
Ali Dunworth:
I don't put sugar in my tea. No, I never have. I know people do. If you had a shock or you're upset, you might put sugar in your tea. I'm writing about tea at the moment, so it's very much in my mind.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food film?
Ali Dunworth:
“Big Night.” You probably get that a lot, do you?
Kerry Diamond:
We do. It's a classic.
Ali Dunworth:
Not a food film, but “Goodfellas,” the food in “Goodfellas” is my favorite comfort watch. And I think about when they're making the dinner in jail and they're cutting the garlic. And also, you know when it's like-
Kerry Diamond:
With the razor?
Ali Dunworth:
Do you know when everything's going wrong at the end and that pot of sauce is boiling over? It's like they've used food so well in “Goodfellas.”
Kerry Diamond:
If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Ali Dunworth:
This was a really hard one because I don't think I really wanted to answer it because I really like being on my own. What I thought about it, practically, for a lot of reasons, I was thinking maybe Brad Leone because hunter-gatherer, he can cook, he can barbecue. I've met him a couple of times. He's pretty sound. I think he could be an all-rounder. Imagine the lovely barbecues that you'd have. He'd be able to do all the-
Kerry Diamond:
Brad Leone, formerly of Bon Appétit. You might be the first person to have said him.
Ali Dunworth:
It was a really hard one to think of because I'm like, there's not a lot of people you'd want to be in a desert island with. I wouldn't.
Kerry Diamond:
Really, the food celebrity you want to be trapped on a desert island with the most is yourself. That's what you're telling us.
Ali Dunworth:
Give me butter, olive oil, and a load of good books and I would be fine. I would fish, I would forage, and I would have a really good time. Yeah, I'd be okay. Maybe something to drink.
Kerry Diamond:
Ali, you are delightful. I'm so glad we've gotten to know each other. Thank you for all your time.
Ali Dunworth:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Happy St. Brigid's day.
Ali Dunworth:
Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute buzz to be on Cherry Bombe, so thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Anyone you want to hear on an upcoming episode, let me know. Our theme song is by the band TralalLa. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.