Claudia Fleming:
Simple is very hard. There's nowhere to hide so your ingredients have to be great. Your technique has to be there. The flavors have to be there.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone, you're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios in Rockefeller Center, in the heart of New York City. We are very lucky today because our guest is Claudia Fleming one of the most celebrated pastry chefs around. Any pastry chef worth their box of Maldon Salt has Claudia's cult classic cookbook on their shelf, called The Last Course, her book was published in 2001 and features her desserts from Gramercy Tavern, the Danny Meyer restaurant she helped open in 1994 as the pastry chef on Chef Tom Colicchio's team. Yes, the same Tom Colicchio we know and love from Top Chef. Claudia has had quite the journey since then, with lots of ups and downs.
She is back in New York City with a brand new job and it's an exciting one. In a way, she has come full circle. Claudia is the corporate pastry director of Union Square Hospitality Group, the restaurant group founded by Danny Meyer, that includes Union Square Cafe, Gramercy Tavern, Daily Provisions, and other NYC eateries. Claudia is here to tell us what her new gig entails and what else she's been up to. It is always an honor to interview Claudia Fleming. Today's show is sponsored by Bouvet Ladubay sparkling wine, and we're going to hear a word about them right now. When people ask me to name my favorite drink, I always say bubbles please, and I am particularly fond of sparkling wine.
So I'm excited to introduce you to Bouvet Ladubay, the family-run winery in the Loire valley that has been producing méthode traditionnelle, pardon my French, sparkling wine since 1851. Which Bouvet to try today? Bouvet Ladubay Tresor Blanc. This lovely sparkler features sauvignon blanc and chardonnay and is aged in oak barrels. Enjoy aromas of brioche and citrus, that sounds wonderful, with a creamy texture and well-balanced tannins or go pink with Bouvet Ladubay Brut Rosé Excellence, bright salmon pink in color, this Rosé features hence a fresh raspberry, redcurrant and peach plus blackcurrant and quince and some earthy herbaceous notes. Both add the perfect pop to any summertime meal, as they pair beautifully with food.
Add a little sparkle to your summer with Bouvet Ladubay sparkling wine. Look for Bouvet Ladubay in your favorite wine shop or on wine.com. Visit bouvetladubay.com for more. Enjoy my conversation with Claudia Fleming of Union Square Hospitality Group. Claudia Fleming, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Claudia Fleming:
My gosh. Thank you for having me back.
Kerry Diamond:
I am so excited. I can barely contain myself.
Claudia Fleming:
You're very sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you for coming over here.
Claudia Fleming:
Of course, my pleasure.
Kerry Diamond:
I know how busy you are, because you have a brand new job.
Claudia Fleming:
I do. I do have a brand new job.
Kerry Diamond:
You do, you have a new job with Union Square Hospitality Group. Can you tell us what your new job is?
Claudia Fleming:
I can, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Would you tell us?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. So I have a very fancy title. I'm the corporate pastry director. Yeah. So I am involved in mentoring and hiring for the restaurants at USHG.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, it sounds like a dream job.
Claudia Fleming:
It is a dream job. Yes, I get to be back at Union Square Hospitality Group.
Kerry Diamond:
Also the mentoring part.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, yes. At this point in my life, it's really what's most important to me. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the conversation come about, of you returning to the fold?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, I sold my restaurant, the North Fork Table in January of 2020 and I just called Danny and said, I don't know if you've heard but I sold the North Fork Table and Inn and I want to come back to New York and I'm just reaching out to my favorite restaurateur in the world and wondering if there's anything for us to talk about, and he said there certainly is. So the conversation started from there. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So that was January 2020. We all know what happened next.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
How did that conversation evolve over the course of the year?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, it stopped.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, Danny. Danny had a lot on his plate.
Claudia Fleming:
There was a little bit going on in ... yes, and so then, I just texted a Christmas message just because it was Christmas and I was texting any and everyone I know and he said, "Oh, I hope you're part of this, this, that, you want to restart the conversation." Really, that was not at all my intent because I had no sense at all of what was going on and-
Kerry Diamond:
That's a nice little Christmas gift of a text, right?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Yes. It was incredible. I was actually at my girlfriend's house and I came flying down the stairs, "Francesca, Francesca. Jenny wants to start the conversation again," and everybody was very and we were-
Kerry Diamond:
I just got goosebumps. That's amazing.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, it's exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your history with Danny's organization. So you helped open Gramercy Tavern in 1994.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that correct?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You told me when we're standing outside that you or Danny actually found a photo from 1986 of the two of you.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So you two have known each other a long time.
Claudia Fleming:
A long, long time. I started working with Danny at Union Square Cafe in 1986.
Kerry Diamond:
That was his very first restaurant.
Claudia Fleming:
That was his very first restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you do there?
Claudia Fleming:
I was a server and eventually migrated to the back of the house.
Kerry Diamond:
Because you were not a good server or you just wanted to be back of house?
Claudia Fleming:
That's funny, because Danny was recollecting that I was a good server, but I recollect that I was not a good server. So nostalgia is a very powerful thing and so I'm really appreciative that he remembers me that way. There was just a lot about cooking in the back of the house that resonated with me and who I am and my life. So, I just decided at that point that I wanted to try cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
You weren't trained, you hadn't gotten to a culinary school, you had worked as a chef before, you were a dancer, weren't you?
Claudia Fleming:
I was a dancer. Yes, which to the point about it, the kitchen being very familiar. It was just a lot of repeating tasks, which I kind of love, a lot of discipline, a lot of technique. Then, of course, there's Showtime, right? All that preparation leads to Showtime. There were just so many parallels for me and I just was very attracted to that.
Kerry Diamond:
Also, awareness of your body, the space you're taking up because-
Claudia Fleming:
The space, yes, it is constant dance.
Kerry Diamond:
Because restaurants aren't that big.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, absolutely. So I started out working in garde manger and I went away for-
Kerry Diamond:
Could you tell people what that means, for folks who are like, what does that mean?
Claudia Fleming:
It's the salad station in a restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
So fancy name for the salad station.
Claudia Fleming:
Fancy name for a salad station. I went away for a summer and when I came back, Michael Romano said, "Well, there's nothing in the kitchen right now but if you want to give pastry a shot, the pastry chef needs an assistant." Sure. Love that. Love to try that. Well, that was it. That was the end. I never left pastry again.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you have such an affinity for pastry?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, I was working with an incredibly talented woman. So, she really gave me the appetite for it. I think, also, there's a real sense of autonomy in the pastry station. There's also more of a sense of doing things from beginning to end. Whereas on the hotline or on the line, you're doing parts of a plate and you're passing it and somebody else is doing something else, instead ... it's just, there are so many fewer of you to get tasks accomplished, you get to do a lot more.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. I never thought of that sense of completion, because it is at a bigger restaurant a little bit more of an assembly line.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, yes and very specialized and again, this was in the mid 80s, pastry was becoming a super big deal, but at Union Square, we were still a very teeny tiny department and there were three of us, and we all took turns doing everything, production and service. It's less like that when you're cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you realize you were at a place that was very special and unique?
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I think Union Square opened in '85. So I was there just a year into it and Danny is just a special individual, and the way that he was developing his enlightened hospitality philosophy, I was part of that.
Kerry Diamond:
He was so young. It was his first restaurant. You were in a part of town where people were not opening restaurants, didn't even necessarily want to go.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Just doing this kind of food, that was also very new to everybody.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Union Square is more of a wholesome sort of heart felt ... it was like home, right and I think that was his intent. It felt ... and he's not that he's come full circle, but he still talks about going out to come home. Just that feeling of amazing hospitality that isn't forced, that's very natural and that was the overriding feeling about working there. You felt like you were important. Your job was very important.
Kerry Diamond:
That's wonderful.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's jump ahead a few years, in '94, when you helped open Gramercy Tavern. What was the vision for Gramercy at the time and why was that such a radical restaurant?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, I think New York was still very Eurocentric, right? Only the best restaurants were French or Italian. So, this was an attempt and successful, obviously, to do a fine dining American restaurant that was refined, elegant and very sophisticated without being stuffy, for want of a better word, or rigid. Again, the enlightened hospitality, just that we were welcoming people into our home and trying to make them feel comfortable and not the least bit of pretension anywhere on any level about anything.
Kerry Diamond:
Tom Colicchio was the opening chef?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so funny to think about, because now everyone knows Tom from Top Chef, what was he like back then?
Claudia Fleming:
I don't know that he was much different than he is now, but Tom is intense, as we all know, keeps his card pretty close to his chest, has a very definitive idea, as all chefs do of what their vision is and is very clear about it, which is wonderful. He was very much in sync with Danny, about his philosophy of enlightened hospitality. So it was a very, very, very exciting time.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you remember your opening menu? Do you remember working on the opening dessert menu?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Well, it was actually Tom's menu.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
As I said, very clear idea about how he wanted things to be, which was a relief, really. It was my first pastry chef position and when you don't know somebody, if you haven't worked with them for years, you don't know what their sensibilities are. So, to have him tell me what it was he wanted was fantastic and I believe he had just come back from France and working at Michel Bras. Let's see, what do we do? We had the ... it was peach tatin with the rosemary and black pepper ice cream. There was warm lemon curd or cream with blueberries. I'm not sure if there was an ice cream on there or not. I don't remember. Those were the two that stick out right now and I can't ... the molten chocolate cake.
Kerry Diamond:
That you've never escaped.
Claudia Fleming:
That I've never escaped but hadn't made in 20 years.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe it's time for a comeback.
Claudia Fleming:
Maybe Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
When were you able to start to incorporate your touches or when did your dessert vocabulary begin to evolve?
Claudia Fleming:
I would say a couple months.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
As the seasons changed, and things came in and out, I was able to insert things and change things up. One of the wonderful things about Gramercy is that it was a pre-fixed menu. So everybody had dessert and we also serve in Amuse. So it was kind of like training wheels, right? I would do the Amuse and Tom and say, "Oh, okay, hit that one." So it was easier to experiment also because if you know you're having dessert, you know it's part of your dinner, you tend to be a little more adventurous than if you have to choose, and do you want Earl Grey ice cream with citrus, with blah blah, blah, or do you want a brownie? Well, probably the brownie because you know what that is, right? If you're choosing-
Kerry Diamond:
It's so interesting because I have such a sweet tooth. I always ordered dessert, but a lot of people just don't order dessert and that must be such a bummer for a pastry chef.
Claudia Fleming:
It's a bummer.
Kerry Diamond:
So, pre-fix is the way to go.
Claudia Fleming:
It was such a blessing to have a pre-fix menu for me. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
When you said you did the ... Wait you said Amuse, right? I always say Amuse-bouche. Is that wrong or is that-
Claudia Fleming:
Amuse-bouche.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
No. It's restaurant lingo, shortened.
Kerry Diamond:
Got it, was it a dessert, that's the little bite that you get at the beginning of the meal?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Was there a dessert Amuse?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, yes, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
There was.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, there was, there was.
Kerry Diamond:
What were some dessert Amuses like little cookie?
Claudia Fleming:
No, the one probably that I served most often was a buttermilk Panna cotta with seasonal chalet on top.
Kerry Diamond:
Very amazing.
Claudia Fleming:
With a sorbet that would match the chalet.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, no mere cookie. Sorry. That was insulting that I even asked that question.
Claudia Fleming:
Not at all, I love cookies. They're my favorite thing.
Kerry Diamond:
I know you published your book in 2001. Were you at Gramercy the whole time?
Claudia Fleming:
I actually left Gramercy in late 2001, but returned probably 18 months later to do some consulting.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. So let's talk about the book. So your book, The Last Course was published in 2001 and re-issued in 2019, very exciting. Why did that book become such a cult classic?
Claudia Fleming:
You have to tell me. I have no idea. I really have no idea. It was published, I remember, September 11, 2001.
Kerry Diamond:
I know, we talked about that, the last time you were on the show.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. So it kind of just faded away and I don't really know why or how it got resurrected, but I'm delighted.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm probably repeating what I will say at the beginning of the show, but for those of you who don't know, Claudia, she really is the pastry chef's pastry chef and her book, The Last Course is in every pastry chef's cookbook collection. I know a lot of them were very bummed that the book became so hard to get, so they were thrilled that the book was reissued. You similarly must have been thrilled, the book was re-issued.
Claudia Fleming:
I was absolutely thrilled because it got me another book deal. So yeah, finishing up a second book.
Kerry Diamond:
Good, which we will talk about in a little bit. Can you walk us through the book a little bit and just explain what your approach was in the book. Some pastry books can be really complicated. Some chef books can be intimidating, but people gravitated to this one, what was it about your recipes or your instructions?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, my whole philosophy for creating desserts at Gramercy was sort of to deconstruct classic pastries or just concepts of pastries. So, just say you had a layer cake that you were going to serve with ice cream or whipped cream or whatever. Well, I would strip out the icing or frosting or filling, serve the cake and then add another, hopefully seasonal element. So every dessert had at least three elements. I tried not to do more than that.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Coco Chanel, like before you go out and take off something, right, because ... especially when you are young and being creative, there's always too much going on. So try to always remove something before you put that thing out there. So I would try to compose those three elements, and have them have contrasting temperatures and textures. So when I went to the book, that's sort of a heavy lift for a home cook, we were taking ... Melissa Clark was my co-author, the fabulous Melissa Clark. We were sort of dissecting those deconstructed desserts and creating desserts out of single elements, and then, towards the end of the book, putting those elements together at like restaurant desserts.
Kerry Diamond:
Which recipe was the most copied or the most popular? What did you just see everywhere for years to come?
Claudia Fleming:
Chocolate Caramel Tart. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Walk us through that.
Claudia Fleming:
I love candy.
Kerry Diamond:
Me too, what kind of candy do you love?
Claudia Fleming:
I love Milky Way bars. I love Rolos.
Kerry Diamond:
Sounds like you and I have the same taste of candy.
Claudia Fleming:
Caramel and chocolate.
Kerry Diamond:
And dark chocolate.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you remember the Reggie Bar? New Yorkers will remember the Reggie Bar.
Claudia Fleming:
Was it crispy, caramely and chocolatey?
Kerry Diamond:
It was and it was named for Reggie Jackson because he was-
Claudia Fleming:
Reggie Jackson, yes, of course.
Kerry Diamond:
Because he was such a hot shot here in New York City. All those points to anyone out there who remembers the Reggie Bar. Okay, so we've established, you like caramely, like chocolate, and crunchy things.
Claudia Fleming:
Crispy things and I think that's probably been the most copied as far as I can tell.
Kerry Diamond:
Was it a chocolate shell?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, so chocolate sucree shell, which is a sweet cookie like dough, filled with caramel and topped with a dark chocolate ganache, and sprinkled with sea salt. Now, it didn't start out that way, but I went to the chocolate show in Paris at a very early point at Gramercy, and all those guys were putting salt on chocolate at the chocolate show. I'm like, "Wow, that's so cool." We just made the chocolate speak. I mean, it just was crazy what it did to the chocolate. So I started doing it. A lot of people do it.
Kerry Diamond:
I read that you do not want to take the blame for all the salt that is on baked goods today?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, it's true. I don't.
Kerry Diamond:
Do not blame Claudia Fleming.
Claudia Fleming:
I think it might be overused. It doesn't belong everywhere, as a garnish, I mean, certainly it belongs in every recipe. Yeah, as a garnish, it doesn't need to be on everything. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Take note, folks. I would like to go to the chocolate show in Paris.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, it was great.
Kerry Diamond:
That sounds dreamy.
Claudia Fleming:
It was dreamy. So fun.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh.
Claudia Fleming:
So amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
I would just like to go back to Paris, period but Paris and the chocolate show sounds really great. Okay, so the chocolate caramel tart. Okay, saw that everywhere. What other desserts did you help popularize?
Claudia Fleming:
I think probably the tapioca.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about your tapioca.
Claudia Fleming:
So, the tapioca is my ... I don't know that I popularized it, but I think it's the one that's associated with me pretty strongly. So it's tapioca cooked in coconut milk. It's garnished with passion fruit caramel, Basil syrup, coconut sorbet, passion fruit sorbet, and a coconut cookie. That was inspired by a trip to Thailand.
Kerry Diamond:
Fun. That sounds so good. What other desserts? Give me one more.
Claudia Fleming:
Buttermilk Panna cotta.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you do yours? Any particular garnishes?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, it was always like a blank canvas for me, it was always on the menu and either it was with you know figs and raspberries or it was with Concord grape chalet and Concord grape sorbet, poached peaches with a peach chalet and peach sorbet, poached peaches with a peach chalet and peach sorbet. It was omnipresent but had always a seasonal flair to it.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you shopping at the Union Square Farmers Market?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
In the mornings?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, yes. Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
Every day?
Claudia Fleming:
Only on Wednesday and Saturday.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah and we had a food manager, for want of a better term, who would go and collect all of the food. I mean, Gramercy Tavern used an insane amount of green market product. So he would actually go with a couple of guys in those carts.
Kerry Diamond:
So you would just pick things out and you have them saved. Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
I would pick things out or I would order them and then, he would go and retrieve them. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Claudia, who inspired you the way you've inspired so many pastry chefs?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, Nancy Silverton for sure. Lindsey Shere also who was the pastry chef at Chez Panisse, in the early days. Those are my two Bibles. Those two pastry books.
Kerry Diamond:
Which one of Nancy's? She has so many.
Claudia Fleming:
The very first one.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Desserts. I learned so much about technique, reading that book. I just read it cover to cover many times, and Pierre Hermé, of course. Tom was an enormous influence on me and the way I approached food and looked at how to compose things. I borrowed heavily from the savory kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
How so?
Claudia Fleming:
There were all kinds of garnishes there that I adopted.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned earlier, like rosemary.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. We would actually borrow from one another. The Savory Kitchen uses sweet stuff all the time and I thought, well, why can't I use savory stuff? Tom showed me the black pepper in the ice cream. That was his creation.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you know why he did that, the first time, what he felt the black pepper brought out?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, it was a fruity spice that enhanced the peach and I didn't ask a lot of questions. It was mostly wee chef. Although we didn't say wee chef at all.
Kerry Diamond:
You didn't in the kitchen though.
Claudia Fleming:
No. We were not allowed to speak like that in the kitchen. No.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Eventually, you left New York City and opened North Fork Table and Inn, what led to that decision?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, getting married was part of that. Gerry Hayden, my husband and I left New York City in 2005. I had left the Union Square Hospitality Group. He had sold his partnership in his restaurant Amuse and we went out to the east end of Long Island because he always dreamt of going out there, and we were both ready for a change. I mean, who was I going to work for? Danny likes to tell the story that, on my exit interview, I said that I would never work for another restaurateur, and he reminded me of that when I got back in touch with him.
Kerry Diamond:
Thanks, Danny.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, and here I am not working for anyone but him, happily.
Kerry Diamond:
So Gerry had owned the business before.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You never had.
Claudia Fleming:
No, I never had.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, how did you find business ownership?
Claudia Fleming:
Very challenging. Yeah, and we were both pretty strong-headed.
Kerry Diamond:
Had you never worked together before, the two of you?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, we work together at Tribeca Grill. He was actually my boss. Gerry was the pastry chef and sous chef at Tribeca Grill and we didn't get together until many, many years later. So he was like, a wonder kid back in those days, like he was incredibly talented. So, that was my second pastry job and just a pastry cook, that was right after Union Square. We worked together, me as his subordinate, not me as his equal and that's very different.
Kerry Diamond:
Nuff said.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How are you doing? I mean, folks who know you and who love you and your husband know that he passed away a few years ago.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, in 2015, complications from ALS. It was very hard to run the business without him. It was really his business. I mean, I say we were eagles, but I really worked for him. It was his vision. It was his heart and soul. It was both of our blood, sweat and tears. So it was very, very, very hard to not have my life partner and business partner. So started looking to sell it and eventually did in 2020.
Kerry Diamond:
Was that hard to sell it or it was just time?
Claudia Fleming:
No, it's time and I was ready. I was very ready and very grateful.
Kerry Diamond:
You found a buyer for it?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Great people.
Kerry Diamond:
Good.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Really great people. John Fraser is actually the managing restaurant group for it.
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't realize that. Okay, well, that's exciting.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. It's exciting. It's gorgeous.
Kerry Diamond:
How did they do last year?
Claudia Fleming:
I think well, everyone evacuated.
Kerry Diamond:
So, folks who don't know where the North Fork is, it's sort of like the opposite of the Hamptons, literally and geographically, right?
Claudia Fleming:
Mm-hmm.
Kerry Diamond:
There are farms and wineries out there, it's such a beautiful part of New York State.
Claudia Fleming:
It's pretty chill. A lot of people are super duper into farm stands and going home and cooking, right? A lot more people cook I think on the North Fork than on the South Fork maybe.
Kerry Diamond:
That's not good if you own a restaurant.
Claudia Fleming:
Right. Yes, but we stood out. I mean, we ...
Kerry Diamond:
You had a very special.
Claudia Fleming:
We had a very special place.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I did visit it once.
Claudia Fleming:
You did.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, and I had a wonderful time. I celebrated a birthday there. A big one. Okay, how have you evolved as a pastry chef since the Gramercy Tavern days?
Claudia Fleming:
Much simpler, things are much simpler. Yeah. Part of that is just a function of staff. When I worked at Gramercy, I had a staff of 10. The North Fork table had a staff of three. So, as few bells and whistles I put on my desserts, there were even fewer.
Kerry Diamond:
That's interesting, because I was going to say you explained earlier you love Coco Chanel's, take one thing off before you leave the house.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So you were already stripping down your desserts.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So when you say simpler, what got simpler? Give us an example.
Claudia Fleming:
Instead of three elements, maybe there were only two elements.
Kerry Diamond:
More is probably easier.
Claudia Fleming:
More is easier. Simple is very hard. There's nowhere to hide, right? So your ingredients have to be great. Your technique has to be there. Flavors have to be there. Yeah. It is more challenging to create something that feels complete, even when it's that simple.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you loving ingredient wise today?
Claudia Fleming:
Strawberries.
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't say what in season.
Claudia Fleming:
I know, I know, but I'm always loving what's in season. Sorry, I can't help it. I can't help it. Ingredient wise, let me think about this-
Kerry Diamond:
Everything is in season right now. I feel like, strawberries, peaches, cherries.
Claudia Fleming:
In a week. It's like an avalanche of fresh produce. It's incredible. It's kind of hard to keep up. I have to be honest.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, and it's hard not to want to buy everything.
Claudia Fleming:
Everything, everything. I know, I see people with big bags at the green market and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, who are these people cooking for?"
Kerry Diamond:
I know. I know. I have to remind myself that I'm just cooking for myself.
Claudia Fleming:
Ingredient wise.
Kerry Diamond:
Or let me rephrase the question, what are you always reaching for? What do you have to replenish on a regular basis?
Claudia Fleming:
Sugar.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you, white sugar?
Claudia Fleming:
I am white sugar.
Kerry Diamond:
We just did interesting interview last week with a young woman named Samah Dada and she has a great new book called Dada Eats. She's all about these sort of substitution ingredients.
Claudia Fleming:
Alternative, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Coconut sugar. All these different-
Claudia Fleming:
I love coconut sugar.
Kerry Diamond:
Flours and nut butters, and there's not a single ingredient in her book that calls for white sugar or white flour.
Claudia Fleming:
That's a lot of development.
Kerry Diamond:
So you like coconut sugar also?
Claudia Fleming:
I do. I love coconut sugar.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you like about it?
Claudia Fleming:
It's delicious. I mean, it has flavor. Sugar really doesn't have very much flavor.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a vehicle, right?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
What else are you replenishing regularly?
Claudia Fleming:
Chocolate. I do have chocolate.
Kerry Diamond:
Whose chocolate, can you say?
Claudia Fleming:
I use a lot of Guittard.
Kerry Diamond:
Guittard is great.
Claudia Fleming:
It is great.
Kerry Diamond:
Guittard and I were just texting. Amy if you're listening to this. Hello, in San Francisco.
Claudia Fleming:
Hi. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Anything else, give us a third.
Claudia Fleming:
A third ingredient.
Kerry Diamond:
Still using the salt?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you Maldon girl?
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely. We love Maldon.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
We love Maldon. It's just so delicate.
Kerry Diamond:
They really cornered the market, didn't they?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Well, it's kind of perfect. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
It is kind of perfect for so many things. All right, what are you loving baked good wise, these days?
Claudia Fleming:
So, being on the North Fork is kind of like living under a rock, or very much like living under a rock and owning and running a restaurant, man, I didn't get to New York very much. So this is embarrassing, but when I got to Daily Provisions and had a color, it was an epiphany. So I'm just giddy and excited about the color at Daily provisions.
Kerry Diamond:
So we should probably go back a step. So Danny Meyer's group, Union Square Hospitality Group has multiple locations and Daily Provisions is one of them.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Daily provisions is a breakfast, lunch, dinner slash bakery that you can just gather all your stuff. It's all prepared. I mean, they do have some provisions that are raw ingredient, but great sandwiches like egg sandwiches for breakfast, and they're delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
So New York.
Claudia Fleming:
It's so New York. It's just so perfect.
Kerry Diamond:
Everybody loves an egg. Well, I won't say everybody, but you can't have a place like that and not have an egg sandwich.
Claudia Fleming:
Correct. They are great.
Kerry Diamond:
When I have my coffee shop. I can't even ... I mean just the sheer number of egg sandwiches we made every morning and especially on the weekends-
Claudia Fleming:
It blows your mind, doesn't it?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, it really does. Yeah, it's crazy. So I saw something about a strawberry scone.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What's a strawberry scone all about? Is it Daily Provisions?
Claudia Fleming:
It's a Daily Provisions and it's a limited time offer. Danny wanted me to-
Kerry Diamond:
Get moving, people.
Claudia Fleming:
Announce myself with breakfast pastry, and they didn't have a scone and I love scones.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know why I'm laughing at the idea of announcing yourself with a breakfast pastry, have a vision of like somebody in a scone outfit with a little ... Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I hope that would have been perfect. I would have loved that.
Kerry Diamond:
Like a scone mascot.
Claudia Fleming:
A dancing scone.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh. So what is so special about a Claudia Fleming scone? Tell me.
Claudia Fleming:
I'm not sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Stop.
Claudia Fleming:
Other than the fact that I like them.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sure your scones are magical. I need to go try one.
Claudia Fleming:
They're crispy on the outside and flaky and fluffy in the middle and packed with strawberry flavor. I use both freeze dried and fresh, and there's a little bit of strawberry jam in there.
Kerry Diamond:
You just fold it into the batter.
Claudia Fleming:
No. I layer it, so there's two layers.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Because if you fold it into the batter, well, the jam will burn and the strawberries will bleed out and make a big wet mess.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sorry, pastry chefs, that was a terrible question of mine.
Claudia Fleming:
No, it wasn't.
Kerry Diamond:
I just couldn't envision the layer of the scone.
Claudia Fleming:
It was kind of a ridiculous notion for me to even do that, right? It's like, who does that with a scone? That's ridiculous. It's very hard to get fresh fruit into a scone because of all the water in the fresh fruit, and me and my seasonality thing, I had to have strawberry scone.
Kerry Diamond:
How long will this be on the menu?
Claudia Fleming:
Until the end of June.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. We don't have much time.
Claudia Fleming:
We don't have much time.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, folks, we got to get moving. What surprises you about the pastry scene today? It has exploded.
Claudia Fleming:
Exploded.
Kerry Diamond:
And it's all your fault.
Claudia Fleming:
I don't know believe so.
Kerry Diamond:
In a good way.
Claudia Fleming:
I'm not taking credit for that.
Kerry Diamond:
You should take some credit.
Claudia Fleming:
I feel like the pastry scene has evolved into a baking scene and that there's lots of really cool interesting things happening in bakeries.
Kerry Diamond:
It's kind of mind-blowing.
Claudia Fleming:
It's mind-blowing. It's wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
It's hard to keep up with all of it.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a wonderful community of people.
Claudia Fleming:
Incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
They're all so supportive.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
They're all charitable. They're all engaged in social justice. I mean, it's really a wonderful community.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. They're all very wonderful and loving and welcoming and yeah, it doesn't feel competitive. It just feels like everyone is sharing.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. How do you keep up with it all? Are you on Instagram?
Claudia Fleming:
It's hard. Yes, I'm terrible at it. I tend to look more than I post.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you get out as much as you would like to try?
Claudia Fleming:
No. I don't. I don't. I've only been back in New York for two months. Yeah, no, not as much as I'd like and I'm working on it.
Kerry Diamond:
There's time.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
There's time.
Claudia Fleming:
Certainly.
Kerry Diamond:
Speaking of time, not as much time for this, but you and Hillary Sterling, another favorite of ours are working on the menu for the new restaurant. I'm going to say it right, Ci Siamo.
Claudia Fleming:
That's exactly right. Perfect.
Kerry Diamond:
It would be the newest part of the Union Square Hospitality Group. What can you tell us about the project?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, there's going to be a massive hearth, so open fire, a lot-
Kerry Diamond:
You don't hear that about many New York City restaurants.
Claudia Fleming:
I know, right? It's just even hard to imagine that they're allowed to have open fire like that but you can imagine all the rules and regulations surrounding that. There are plenty so it's perfectly safe.
Kerry Diamond:
We would expect nothing less from you all.
Claudia Fleming:
So, it's handcrafted pastas and as I said, proteins on the hearth, lots of-
Kerry Diamond:
Hillary is a pasta-
Claudia Fleming:
Pasta Queen.
Kerry Diamond:
Hillary is a pasta queen.
Claudia Fleming:
Pasta queen, everything. I mean, she's so talented.
Kerry Diamond:
She is. I was so excited when I heard that news.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, me too. Me too.
Kerry Diamond:
I hate to say this, because I know everyone asks you this, but is there an opening date?
Claudia Fleming:
I don't know if there is. I think it's September, mid September.
Kerry Diamond:
That's such an exciting time to open-
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, it's so great opening a new restaurant and working with a new team, just everybody has the same level of enthusiasm and passion and goals and it's special to be part of an opening restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you know Hillary previously?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Yes, I did.
Kerry Diamond:
Good. That's so much fun. I read that you're looking to hire a pastry chef there.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you still actively looking?
Claudia Fleming:
We're looking for a ... few of the restaurants are going to have pastry sous chefs. So they'll be developing menus with me and experimenting with me, but the title pastry chef, we're not using that currently.
Kerry Diamond:
What makes a good pastry chef in your mind?
Claudia Fleming:
Someone who understands the sensibility of the chef and the vision of the restaurant, and isn't trying to stand out. It's part of the dinner. It should be a seamless sort of transition from aperitifs to dessert.
Kerry Diamond:
So you can't have too much of an ego as a pastry chef.
Claudia Fleming:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. That's not a bad thing.
Claudia Fleming:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
If you do you're probably better off opening your own place or doing pop ups or things like that.
Claudia Fleming:
Think of this as an open call. Call me if you want a job in a pastry department. There's lot of openings at USHG.
Kerry Diamond:
In all seriousness, what's the best way for people to get in touch?
Claudia Fleming:
Cfleming@ushg.com.
Kerry Diamond:
How does one apply for a job like that? Do you send a resume? Do you drop off cookies?
Claudia Fleming:
Well, you would ... you could drop off cookies, but I don't know if they would make it to me. I believe that you have to go to the USHG hospitality website and there are positions posted there.
Kerry Diamond:
This is good information.
Claudia Fleming:
Please email me directly and we can figure out the next step, together.
Kerry Diamond:
What an amazing opportunity to work under you.
Claudia Fleming:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, absolutely. I hope some people take Claudia up on that piece of information.
Claudia Fleming:
Me too.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of talented people here in New York. Okay, I want to ask you, I did not put this in the list of questions I sent over, but I didn't leave this out on purpose. I just forgot to put it in there. One of the reasons I was so excited about your news, also about Hillary's news is that it seems that women of a certain age do not get high profile restaurant gigs. Do you agree, disagree?
Claudia Fleming:
I think I don't follow closely enough to have an appropriate answer for you.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you worried about ageism when you sold North Fork?
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely. I still am. It's amazing. Everyone in the world is younger than me, it feels like. I feel like the oldest person in the world and things are very different. I feel really fortunate to be able to be a part of a changing industry and world because I think it is changing for the better. It doesn't mean it's not hard.
Kerry Diamond:
The fact that your job includes mentorship, I just think that's the most amazing thing.
Claudia Fleming:
It is and it's my favorite part of what's going to be happening to help ... show people or help them, evolve and create and hopefully see a long future for themselves in the industry, because we're needed.
Kerry Diamond:
If our listeners want to experience some Claudia Fleming desserts for themselves, where should we send them? I know we talked about Daily Provisions.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. So, that was first stop. I don't know yet.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Stay tuned.
Claudia Fleming:
Just stay tuned. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Watch this space. That's the message there. What is one good habit you have that makes your life better in some way?
Claudia Fleming:
I've started meditating. Yeah. Yeah. Just a little tiny bit. Just a little tiny bit but I find myself looking forward to it, everyday.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. One great piece of advice for our listeners.
Claudia Fleming:
Should we go with the Coco Chanel advise?
Kerry Diamond:
Sure. Sure. That works in a lot of instances, right?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes, it does, with so many things. Just take off that little extra thing that you think, a little less of this, a little less of that.
Kerry Diamond:
One last layer, you can imply that to so many things.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. For sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, time for the speed round. Most used kitchen tool.
Claudia Fleming:
Bull scraper.
Kerry Diamond:
A favorite cookbook.
Claudia Fleming:
A favorite, A favorite.
Kerry Diamond:
One you looked up lately.
Claudia Fleming:
Actually, I have to say, the Lindsey Shere, Dessert book.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, it's such a classic and so, I'd love it. It doesn't have photographs.
Kerry Diamond:
Music in the kitchen. I know you have two different kitchens.
Claudia Fleming:
Is this a yes or no question or what kind of music?
Kerry Diamond:
It's all of the above. So you have professional kitchens plus your home kitchen.
Claudia Fleming:
Right.
Kerry Diamond:
Where do you stand on music, if you do listen, what do you listen to?
Claudia Fleming:
I have to say, I found music in the kitchen so distracting.
Kerry Diamond:
You do, interesting.
Claudia Fleming:
My god, I cannot focus. I want to be dancing. I want to be singing. If you have to talk to people, you're yelling over the music. I know I'm such a-
Kerry Diamond:
Even at home, when you're by yourself?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, kind of.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
I tend to just get really distracted and want to dance.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a good answer.
Claudia Fleming:
Which is sometimes fine. I guess working on the book, I wasn't listening to music but if I am just cooking dinner, yes, I'm listening to music.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Kitchen footwear of choice.
Claudia Fleming:
Dansko clogs.
Kerry Diamond:
Last pantry purchase.
Claudia Fleming:
Popcorn.
Kerry Diamond:
Oldest thing in your fridge.
Claudia Fleming:
Mustard.
Kerry Diamond:
Dream travel destination.
Claudia Fleming:
Morocco.
Kerry Diamond:
Fun.
Claudia Fleming:
Still trying to get there. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Never been?
Claudia Fleming:
Never been.
Kerry Diamond:
I went to Marrakesh once and it was fabulous.
Claudia Fleming:
Was it?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, it really was.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, everybody says that.
Kerry Diamond:
If you had to be stuck on a desert island, with a lot of food celeb, who would it be and why?
Claudia Fleming:
Okay, I'm going to say, do you know Francisco Migoya.
Kerry Diamond:
From Modernist Cuisine. He's a sweetheart.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, he's such a sweetheart. We've met a couple of times. We don't really know each other but the wealth of knowledge, I mean, I feel like you could go for years without repeating a conversation. He seems like a really nice guy.
Kerry Diamond:
He could probably make food out of anything.
Claudia Fleming:
With a tree bark.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly, exactly. That's such an interesting answer. You were the first one to say that. I did not look what your last answer was. I want to go back and see what your answer-
Claudia Fleming:
Do you want me to tell you?
Kerry Diamond:
Do you remember?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, of course, I remember.
Kerry Diamond:
What was it?
Claudia Fleming:
Tom.
Kerry Diamond:
Tom Colicchio.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. I mean, because I know him. I don't know Francisco, right, so-
Kerry Diamond:
Tom, you've been booted off the island.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Sorry.
Claudia Fleming:
Well, maybe he's still on the island. Maybe it's me and the two of them. I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
He, Paul Gayler on other side and you're on this side. So anyway, well, Claudia, welcome back.
Claudia Fleming:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, welcome back in so many ways.
Claudia Fleming:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
What a thrill. Thank you for coming on the show. I'm so honored to talk to you.
Claudia Fleming:
I am so honored. Thank you so much Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. I'm going to go get that scone.
Claudia Fleming:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's go.
Claudia Fleming:
I should have brought you one. Sorry.
Kerry Diamond:
It's okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Bye.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Claudia Fleming for coming by. It was really wonderful talking to you. A big merci beaucoup to Bouvet Ladubay's sparkling wine for supporting today's episode. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. We record at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Thanks to our chief engineer, Joseph Hazan and thank you to Radio Cherry Bombe's assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. If you enjoyed our show, be sure to sign up for our newsletter over at cherrybombe.com. Thanks for listening everybody. You are the bombe.
Harry From When Harry Met Sally:
I'll have what she's having.