Deb Perelman Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and cookbook author, and my fourth book is coming out this fall. Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
For today's episode, I'm joined by Deb Perelman. Yes, The Smitten Kitchen creator is back on She's My Cherry Pie. Home cooks and bakers have been reaching for her recipes for well over a decade both online and in her books, which include “The Smitten Kitchen” cookbook, “Smitten Kitchen Every Day,” and “Smitten Kitchen Keepers.” Deb's extensive catalog of recipes has a bit of everything, but today, we're focusing on icebox cakes given it's summertime, and turning on your oven might be the last thing you want to do right now. Deb talks through some of her favorite recipes for these chilled no-bake cakes, including her chocolate peanut butter one, her strawberry graham one, and her classic one. Deb is such an inspiration, and I loved talking to her about one of my favorite summer desserts. Stay tuned for our chat. If you'd like to follow along, you can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Thank you to Grappa Nonino for supporting today's show. Grappa is a traditional Italian spirit made by distilling pomace, the skin seeds and stems of grapes left over from the winemaking process. Generations have loved to sip grappa or use it in cocktails, and some even use grappa as an ingredient in baked goods and desserts. I've used bourbon, rum, and amaretto before, but never grappa. So, the folks at Grappa Nonino challenged me to create some special treats with their award-winning grappa varietals. I made a chocolate budino with Nonino's Monovitigno Chardonnay Grappa. The varietal's notes of bread, vanilla, and pastry paired so well with the chocolate. Nonino's Monovitigno Merlot Grappa with its notes of rose petal and cherry and its fruity finish was the perfect addition to my ricotta cake with strawberries. A trifle is always a showstopper, so I made a raspberry trifle but swapped out the traditional sherry for Grappa Nonino Monovitigno Moscato. This varietal's floral sage, thyme, and vanilla flavors were an ideal complement to the tart raspberries and sweet mascarpone cream. Nonino has been distilling grappa since 1897 and has been led by generations of amazing women from Silvia Nonino, Italy's first female master distiller, to Silvia's three granddaughters who run the distillery today. Keep an eye on my Instagram @jessiesheehanbakes to learn and see just how I use Grappa Nonino in my baked goods and desserts and to get the recipes. You can also learn more about Grappa Nonino at grappanonino.it.
Peeps, have you heard the news? Cherry Bombe's first-ever Jubilee Wine Country is happening in Napa Valley on October 26th and 27th. It'll be a weekend filled with great wine, winemakers, beautiful food, seasonal produce, conversation, connection, and California. Passes are now available. To learn more and snag a pass, visit cherrybombe.com.
Let's check in with today's guest. Deb, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie again, and to talk icebox cakes with you and so much more.
Deb Perelman:
Thank you for inviting me back.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, this is the second time you've been a guest on She's My Cherry Pie, and since we last chatted, you have started your own podcast: The Recipe with Kenji López-Alt, in which you guys, quote, "obsess about recipes so the rest of us don't need to," and you demystify the recipe development process.
Deb Perelman:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I read that you've always thought it would be fun to have a podcast, but you wanted a partner in crime to do it with. So, I wondered what about podcasting appealed to you, and why did you want a partner.
Deb Perelman:
Well, thank you, first of all, and what appealed to me about having a podcast is that I've always joked I have a face for radio. And then we added a video component, and I still have to put lip gloss on to record my podcast and I resent it deeply. Well, you know I love chatting. I love talking about cooking and I think it's really fun, but I need a conversation partner. So, I love being able to bounce off with another person, and I had the idea in the back of my head for years, but I never really found the right other... And then I completely forgot about it.
We've been doing similar work with web recipes for almost the same amount of time, but I hadn't met him before until I was on a book tour in Seattle, and he interviewed me when I was in town, and we just hit it off. And so, a couple of weeks later he was like, "We should start a podcast." I'm like, "We should start a podcast. There you go, it's going to be you." So, that's how it started. We're about to start recording our second season.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you and Kenji talk a lot about the recipe development process, which is a process that I know you love, and you each have very different styles. Yours, you've said, begins with a craving, but also, I feel like you begin with a little bit of either resistance or ambivalence in the sense that you always ask yourself, "Does the world really need this version of this recipe?" Can you unpack that for us and how you adore tinkering? And also, as a beloved reader of Smitten Kitchen, I'm obsessed with your headnotes, and I read every single word.
Deb Perelman:
Well, thank you, and you know me very well, which I love because we've worked together so many times, and you have helped me with recipe development in the past, and I appreciate it so much. I tend, a lot of times, to try and talk myself out of recipes. I mostly feel like the internet is quite full of recipes. Cookbooks are full. Why this one? Why does it matter? Why do we need it?
I'm also a little lazy because if I successfully convince myself that we don't need it, then I don't have to do the work. So, sometimes I win, and I don't have to do the work, and sometimes I lose, and in trying to talk myself out of it, I have to do the work. So, that's part of it. I love tinkering though. I love tinkering because I so often make a recipe and it's a great recipe or it's a good recipe, but I'm like, "There should be more salt," or, "There's too much sugar," and, "Why aren't we using this one-bowl custard technique?" And, "Why am I sifting? We don't need to sift this recipe. I don't think it's going to change it."
And so, eventually, I pivot the criticizing from inside my head to outside my head, and then I point it out and I just start wondering what I can lose, what I can trim off, what can I do to make it something that I actually wouldn't mind making more often? Because I think, a lot of times... I'm not sure how often recipes are written for home cooks the way they're supposed to be. I feel like sometimes they're written to teach a technique or to show a technique. But it's not always about the real-life implication of it's 6:00 P.M. and you want to make your kid a birthday cake. That's a completely different kind of recipe math you might do when you're actually cooking in real life.
Jessie Sheehan:
You consider yourself a writer first and a writer in the end, and I loved that. But then I interpret it. I'm like, "Does that mean Deb will write a memoir?" I loved this idea though that... Because I know that you have a writing background. It's obvious in everything we see that you do that you know how to write. What do you think you meant by a writer first and then a writer in the end?
Deb Perelman:
I feel like I've always resisted this idea of saying that I'm a writer because I feel like I don't really take my writing seriously enough to call myself a writer. But when I realize that's probably the easy part for me, and it's probably... Recipe development, for me, comes out of being persnickety and picky and difficult, and writing comes out of my desire to... I love conversation. I love chatting with friends. I want you to come over. I want us to go on a walk. I want us to sit down for an Aperol spritz, and you tell me about this weird thing you made for dinner or this dumb thing that happened at work. I love that.
So, I think, if you think of the two places it comes out of, I think it makes sense that I would probably consider writing the more natural place. I really enjoy it, and I really like it when people explain why things matter to them, and why and where it fit into their life. I feel like I want to know that. I don't just want a list of ingredients.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. I love that. I also wanted to mention that Kenji has described your superpowers as it were as solutions, i.e., solving the problem of what people are going to do when they don't know what to cook. And I wondered if you would say this is true of you.
Deb Perelman:
I don't know that that's true, but if you're only looking at the outcomes of these struggles, which might be what you would see on my website and our cookbook, it might look that way. I have not resolved the dinner dilemma tonight. I hope to. I've got another hour.
Jessie Sheehan:
I would also add that because through your writing you make people feel close to you that we as readers, we want you to solve our problems because we think you're cool and funny and you're our friend, and so, whether you're -
Deb Perelman:
I don't know where you got cool from but thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Whether you're aware that's your superpower, I think, as a reader, we feel that. And then finally, just on the subject of podcast, how on earth are you fitting it in? I don't even understand how you're now a podcast host. I feel like you're the busiest person I know.
Deb Perelman:
Oh, I'm just not fitting it in. I'm just doing less. I just do less. I would say we've got it down. We've talked between the first season and the second season about how we're going to manage the workload of it, so it doesn't pull us under. We tried to make sure that we cooked a few of each other's recipes before each episode. It was a lot. I don't know that it's absolutely necessary for me to cook every single time when I already know his recipe's going to be great.
So, we're going to figure... Not to give people less, but just to make sure that we're using our time and energy in the best ways possible. But in general, we have very good editors, and we like to chat about cooking. And so, it's not that horrible amount of work. Coming up with what the topics are going to be, it's more like the content planning part can take a little longer.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, I listened to this excellent interview that you did at the Vancouver Writers Festival.
Deb Perelman:
Oh, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I learned a couple of things about you that I'm hoping you will not mind sharing here.
Deb Perelman:
I remember that was a recent event. So, Bronwen Tate, a poet, interviewed me, and she was absolutely lovely.
Jessie Sheehan:
The first thing I learned about your third book,” Smitten Kitchen Keepers,” is that it's your favorite child. And I know it feels guilty a little bit to say something like that but tell us about that.
Deb Perelman:
It feels so weird to say that it's my favorite child when the first two are wonderful children. They've done nothing wrong. I just think that I was more self-aware going into the third book than I was with the first and the second book, and I think that that makes it a better book. I started this blogging thing. It was a shot in the dark. I had no idea what I was doing. I had no career plan. I had no plans to write a cookbook. I did not plan on having a cooking career. I just thought I would start a blog and yap about cooking, so I had no idea where I was going.
I'm glad I waited to write a first cookbook. I did wait six years, but even in that time, I was still like, "What is a cookbook?" But I feel like I just went into it a little more blind about what a cookbook should be, what this cookbook should be, and then I was still a little bit in that state writing my second cookbook. And I really pulled back after my second cookbook where I hit the brakes and I said, "I don't want to write the third cookbook the same way. I want to write it in a conscious, planned..."
This doesn't mean that there aren't equally good recipes in the first two books, but I wanted it to have... I had a vision for it, and everything had to answer the question, "Is this a keeper? Does it fit here? Is it necessary? Why this recipe?" And having that framework, I think, makes it just a stronger... It has to stand up in a frame. It's a stronger cookbook.
Jessie Sheehan:
The second thing I learned listening to this chat was you have very strong feelings about potlucks, and I loved learning that. Can you tell us a little bit about how you felt about a potluck?
Deb Perelman:
I am of mixed feelings about them. In general, let's say it's a beautiful Sunday in the summer. You could be playing tennis. You could be rowboating on a lake. You could be at the beach. You could be at the pool. You could be doing anything, but at six o'clock, your friends are having a potluck. Every single one of you is now home-cooking. That's so lousy.
How about, hear me out, I'll cook, you enjoy your day, and when you host, I will still cook because I'm incapable of not cooking? But I mean for people who may not derive joy or passion from cooking, and also, you can obviously just bring drinks or a baguette and cut cheese. It's not like you have to make something, but the idea of if everybody was really going to contribute a dish, I don't like the idea that everyone has spent their day cooking and not maybe enjoying their day.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean I feel you are literally speaking... I would say love language, but my potluck language. I feel exactly the same. When you come to my house, don't bring anything. But don't ask me to make the salad when you invite me over.
Deb Perelman:
See, I don't get asked to make the salad, but I insist on making the salad. But I'm also somebody who loves to cook. When you come over, I want you to really... You can bring a bottle of wine. You can bring some sunflowers, whatever, that's fine. I want to cook for you. I want you to come over. I'm going to handle it. I can definitely handle a day of cooking. I wasn't going to go to the beach that day anyway.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then finally, would you mind retelling the hilarious story about your palate and being in France and being served some cheese? This story is so amazing.
Deb Perelman:
This is my husband's favorite story about me, and I guess as long as I stay with him, I'm going to have to hear about it. I'm just kidding, honey, I'm just... He feels like it perfectly encapsulates me, but I don't remember... I think it was Bistrot Paul Bert, but it was one of these classic bistros, and at the end of the meal, and we had had some wine. We had more than a small amount of wine. We were in France. We did not have children with us, so I think you understand.
And they brought around a cheese plate, and you pick the one you want, and they cut off some and put it on your plate and some bread. I picked out the one I wanted, and they put it on my plate, and I put my fork in it, and I was like, "This is the best cheese I've ever had in my entire life." And Alex was like, "That's butter."
It was cultured butter, which has a little tang to it sometimes, salt, but he's like, "That's butter." I was really like, "Do I have to stop doing this now that I know? Do I have to pretend that I'm appalled that I ate that like I don't know? Oh, no. Oh, what have I done?" I did not know it was butter, but I feel like, yeah, that's pretty much what happened, and I think I would do it again but this time I'd be like, "That's right, I'm eating butter."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I'll take the butter.
Deb Perelman:
But at the time I was a little horrified and also sad that I had to then stop.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best kind of prunes out there. I am a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. You probably already know that prunes are good for your gut. You might even know that prunes are also good for your bone health. But what you really need to know is that prunes are absolutely delicious in both sweet and savory dishes. But don't just take it from me, here's what some of the country's top culinary experts have to say. Chef Bronwen Wyatt of Bayou Saint Cake says, "Prunes have an earthy, winey richness that pairs beautifully with the tart fresh flavor of berries." Chef Kat Turner from Highly Likely in L.A. says, "They are an incredibly versatile ingredient that strike a great balance between sweet and savory. They are incredibly sensual." Anna Castro from Acamay in New Orleans says, "Prunes have a sultriness to them. They are very rich and like velvet." I like to use prune puree in my baked goods to give them great flavor and also to replace some of the sugar, eggs, or fat in the recipe. It's super easy to whip up. Just blend prunes and water together, and voila. For recipe ideas and more, be sure to check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
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Now, back to our guest. So, you, I think famously, but maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, have never really engaged in sponsored or branded content like attaching your name to products, et cetera. But this past year, you did a Thanksgiving campaign with Williams-Sonoma. But I wondered if you could just share your decision for doing these projects, which were really exciting.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, so I've been doing The Smitten Kitchen website thing for 17 years, which is crazy because I have not aged at all. Same age as when I started. It's crazy how that worked. My default answer to everything is no and it has been no. I'm a very good noer. For almost every year, every opportunity that's come to me is I'm just a no person. I don't want to do that. I like my job the way it is.
I was hitting this point after the third book where I was like I feel like there should be a way to say, "Are there some things worth saying yes to? Could I hear out Williams-Sonoma about..." Listen to how that sounds out loud. Can I let them convince me to do this thing? Which is so ridiculous. It was a huge honor, but as I said, my default...
So, I made myself go back and not default to no on a couple of things. No, I had a Thanksgiving partnership with them. We were working on some other stuff for the future too, but it was really fun. And also, while I may not love being partnered with brands in general, where am I buying my stuff? Where are my cake pans from? Where are my tongs from and stuff like that?
So, the reality is this is just where I'm buying most of my stuff anyway, so it didn't feel like I was selling something that was inauthentic to myself. We worked with my recipes, my turkey, my favorite stuffing, my favorite green bean salad. These are all my recipes that I worked hard on. I love the idea of them getting to a wider audience.
So, it was really fun. We did a big shoot out in California in June. Very hot, very good air conditioning, and it was really fun, and I enjoyed it. And as I said, I love their stuff, and I always have. I was glad I made myself think before I said no because there really wasn't a good reason to say no. I had just gotten too used to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Also, there was that brilliant tour aspect to it where you got to meet people, and you love meeting people.
Deb Perelman:
That was a big piece of it because I felt like despite having done a really big book tour for my third book, that was part of it. I was like, "Well, can you guys do this?" I'm like, "Could we do a Thanksgiving tour?" So, I'd done a big book tour for the third book, but I still felt like there were a lot of cities I never got to. Sometimes they were smaller cities or maybe they didn't have a big independent bookstore market, which tends to be where I tour.
So, we talked about that, and we talked about where their strongest stores were and where they overlapped with cities. I do keep a list of cities that people complain I never get to, and we lined those up and we did a six-city tour, and it was really fun. I mean it was really enjoyable. They're definitely different kinds of events doing them in stores versus theaters or quirky independent bookstores, but it was really fun. And I was happy to go places and see people.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to talk about icebox cakes.
Deb Perelman:
Yay.
Jessie Sheehan:
And first off, you and I each clearly have a soft spot for icebox cakes. You have three recipes for them on the site, plus two homemade wafer cookie recipes and an icebox cupcake tutorial, and I happen to have written my first cookbook about them.
Deb Perelman:
Yay.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I believe that icebox cakes are one of the most fantastic no-bake desserts. Perfect for summer or really anytime. Can you describe an icebox cake for us in case there is a listener who does not know what one is?
Deb Perelman:
Icebox cakes are usually made... Instead of with cake layers, they're made with cookies or crackers of some sort. Quite often, they're store-bought. It could be graham crackers, it could be those chocolate wafers that you used to be able to get more easily, it could be some sort of ginger snap. What you do is you make a... It's often a whipped cream. It can be sometimes a frosting, but it can be flavored in any way and it's layered together. Maybe you add fresh fruit. There's so much stuff you can do with it.
And what happens is in the fridge, the icebox, the old-fashioned name for a fridge, the cookies become like cake layers. And it's so easy, it's a no-bake dessert. It makes so much sense for the summer, and they're delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about the famous classic one when you write in your headnote on the site about it? You're like, in your opinion, these ingenious 1930s housewives came up with this idea. Can you tell us what they were using?
Deb Perelman:
It was actually my husband what introduced me to the classic one. I did not grow up with them. I think we were at Magnolia Bakery, and I was like, "Let's get a cupcake." And my husband was like, "What about this cake?" I think he'd had a slice of it before and he just loved it because it looks like... My husband loves Oreos, and it looks like a giant Oreo. And basically, it's just made with these chocolate wafers which were these thin simple...
Nabisco used to make them. They were literally called Chocolate Wafers. They stopped, I don't know why, but there are other brands that make similar ones, and it basically is just softened with a vanilla whipped cream. It looks like a giant cloud of Oreos. Magnolia Bakery always did a very beautiful job. The classic one is just lined up in a loaf pan and it's fine, but Magnolia made it lacy and gorgeous, and I started making it all the time because it was so easy, and it was very popular.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, I love it that you published your first icebox cake recipe in 2007, and at that time, I love you were fantasizing about the future you using flavored whipped creams and maybe homemade cookies, which of course, eventually happened, and thanking goodness. Tragically, the original Nabisco Chocolate Wafer cookie is no longer. It was discontinued about a year ago, and you have a couple of homemade recipes, which we'll discuss. But you also actually linked to a cookie that you thought might make a good substitution called Dewey's.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, I've had those a few times.
Jessie Sheehan:
What are you saying?
Deb Perelman:
They're a little thinner and they're more fragile, so if you're ordering them online, it's a little stressful, but I will say the flavor is very close, and they're pretty delicate. They also have a really nice ginger cookie and a really nice lemon... I feel like they're very much the closest. There were so many people publishing homemade chocolate wafer cookies around the time Nabisco discontinued, but I actually do have another recipe for homemade...
This is me. I'm very disloyal to my recipes where I'm always tinkering because there's some odd measurements in my icebox wafer cookies, and I have a simpler one that I use when I'm making icebox cake. But aside from that, it does work pretty well. The idea of ease, and I'm telling you to make a homemade cookie. I understand it may not work, but usually, they're very simple cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Although there is a genius, and we will talk about it because you sometimes will make cake-sized cookies.
Deb Perelman:
That's my favorite thing to do.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then it becomes very smart to make your own. But I just wanted to briefly go over these two homemade chocolate wafer cookie recipes on the site. One is a riff on Alice Medrich's chocolate wafer cookie, and one is King Arthur's recipe, but you've tweaked it and used your own technique that you use with all sugar cookies and cutout cookies for streamlining the process, which I adore.
And interestingly enough, the way that you described your process is you had your homemade cookie recipe, that Alice Medrich riff, let's say, but it had so much butter in it. And you were thinking about making these larger cake-shaped cookies and didn't want to go crazy with all that butter, and so, discovered this King Arthur Baking one. And actually, the recipes are similar. You do them both in a food processor, which is one of your genius tips for speeding up the cookie-
Deb Perelman:
I was going to say lazy but thank you for calling it genius.
Jessie Sheehan:
The cookie-making process. But can you explain? It's like we don't need to use softened butter when we're using the-
Deb Perelman:
I remember the Alice Medrich is... She calls it her chocolate wafer cookie I believe. And the thing is it's so delicious, but we're thinking chocolate wafers like these very plain Nabisco ones. The thing with her cookie recipe, and I have used it for icebox... It's almost too good for what it is. This is a chocolate wafer that you should make when you want a glorious... She's an incredible baker. She's so talented. Her recipes are top-notch, they always work. It's almost too good to bury in whipped cream. It doesn't need it.
So, the other one, when you're thinking of, "I'm going to bury this in a very rich whipped cream." It doesn't need all of that richness. It doesn't need freshly grated chocolate to be the base that we're looking for. We actually want almost a drier, leaner cookie so it's not going to get too mushy in the whipped cream.
But the method that I always use with cookies, almost all of them these days except for maybe some drop cookies I don't do it. I don't have the patience to soften butter. You can also use a stand mixer to do it, but I find the food processor, it literally does it in 30 seconds without scraping down the bowl usually. Either I start with the dry ingredients in the food processor bowl, let the blade whisk them together then I add in the chunks of butter and sugar and blend it all together until it becomes... Yeah, so I basically go from dry to wet, or you can start with the sugar and the butter like you would with the stand mixer and then start adding the dry, but that requires a little more scraping down at the bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
I just think it's so smart. I tend to write so many recipes with melted butter or oil because I do not want to soften butter. I have an aversion to softening butter.
Deb Perelman:
Who wants to plan when you're making cookies? That is not in the spirit of cookies. The spirit of cookies is I want a cookie. I don't want a cookie in two hours when the butter temperature is correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
There's also an ingredient that I love in your second, the one that's similar to a King Arthur one where there's black cocoa powder, which really helps pop that Oreo vibe. And I wondered if you have a brand that you keep it on hand.
Deb Perelman:
I do keep black cocoa powder on hand. It's a weird thing, but I live among Oreo heads. My family loves Oreos, and the thing is that there is, in my days before I had ever smelled or tasted or knew about black cocoa powder, I would have said, "I don't think Oreos are very good. They don't even taste like real chocolate to me." Not would have said, I did say this. It was very hard, but my family decided to love me anyway. "I don't think they really taste like real chocolate. I don't see what the big deal with Oreos is."
Then I got a package of Black cocoa powder. I don't know if you've ever seen it before, but for other people listening, but it's a very dutched cocoa powder, and it's black, and it's very intense. And you open up the package and you take the smallest whiff of it, and it is actual Oreos. The actual flavor of Oreos is black cocoa powder, which is a real chocolate product. And so, literally, just by having it, you can take any chocolate cookie with cocoa powder in it and use black cocoa powder instead and it becomes an Oreo. So, it's such a great little trick to keep on hand.
One thing I do think sometimes people use it wrong is that you don't need to swap, and you should not swap all of the cocoa powder with it because it's a very, very intense cocoa powder. But you could take I'd say it was half a cup of cocoa powder. You might just swap one or two tablespoons of it with the black cocoa powder and it's enough to make the entire cake taste like an Oreo.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. And then I wondered, are there ingredients in these recipes that are contributing to the cookie being crispy? And how much of it is just that we're going to roll it so thin anything's going to be crispy once it's rolled that thin? And if you have a crispy tip or two-
Deb Perelman:
And does it matter that it's crispy because we're going to go soften it anyway? I would say first thing like my strawberry graham icebox cakes, these are on the softer side. And also, you could just underbake them a little bit. The grahams are definitely a softer cookie. I don't remember the exact, but there's probably some brown sugar in them, which is going to keep a cookie softer.
Jessie Sheehan:
They do.
Deb Perelman:
I don't remember whether I put honey in or not.
Jessie Sheehan:
You do.
Deb Perelman:
All those things are going to... Why would I look it up? I just talk out of my mouth about it. But they're going to have a couple of ingredients in it that are going to make it taste like graham crackers but are also going to keep it a little bit softer. You might want to keep them crisp for ease, but they don't necessarily have to be fully crisp.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. I always thought they had to be crisp because they would almost like the way you want a tres leches cake to be dry enough to absorb, I thought you needed a crispy cookie because that would be the best way for the whipped cream to be absorbed into it. But you're right, if you start with something slightly soft-
Deb Perelman:
It's fine. You actually don't-
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're saving a little time.
Deb Perelman:
And you probably only need an hour or two of softening. The strawberry graham icebox cake is something you do not need to wait until the next day. It does not need an overnight in the icebox to work. And also, you just might need less cream to soften it, but it's just going to absorb it very quickly. But no, in general, I mean, traditionally, they're more crisp, and it is a little easier to work with a crisp cookie, but it doesn't have to be.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So, this classic one couldn't be easier to assemble in a large bowl. At home are you using metal bowls? Are you using glass bowls?
Deb Perelman:
I'm using glass bowls, but I think I've been taking photos on the internet for so long that I always think glass is funny because I actually remember Kenji saying he only has metal bowls, and he thinks it's so crazy that I use glass bowls. And so, I've picked up a couple of metal bowls. I'm like, "These are nice. They're like weird mirrors when you take photos of them in videos."
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it Pyrex?
Deb Perelman:
I think mine are Duralex because I have a softness for French products.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think I have Duralex glasses.
Deb Perelman:
It's like a nestled bowl set, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Deb Perelman:
I have a glass-buying problem, so I have a lot of glassware.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, in our stand mixer or bowl with a hand mixer, we're going to beat heavy cream, granulated sugar, and I thought that was interesting. Do you always make whipped cream with granulated instead of powdered? I always do powdered.
Deb Perelman:
I grew up exclusively with powdered sugar, but the truth is that since both work, I'm like, "Do I have to ask people to buy powdered sugar if it isn't otherwise using it?" I still do use either in recipes or I might write it for one tablespoon of granulated sugar or powdered sugar. The idea is that powdered sugar is supposed to dissolve faster, but some people say the corn starch element of powdered sugar helps the whipped cream thicken, but I don't think any are necessary and I have never made whipped cream with granulated sugar where there was any grit left by the time... It dissolves quickly, so I would say use what you have.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to add some granulated sugar, some heavy cream, a little bit of vanilla. Is there a brand that you love of vanilla?
Deb Perelman:
I'm not particularly loyal on extract. I have the Nielsen-Massey one, which is great. Of course, they have five different ones, and I think I like their Mexican or the Haitian one better than their classic one. I also buy McCormick, the spice brand. I bought a big bottle of that a few years ago, and I just needed a large amount. I'm like, "This tastes like my childhood. It's perfect. This is exactly what vanilla extract tastes like around..." I also have some homemade vanilla extract where I had just a bunch of old vanilla beans. And so, I stuck them in vodka and it's delicious. And then I have vanilla bean paste too, which I love for certain things.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to beat this on high speed until soft peaks form, and I love that you're not asking us to chill our bowl and our beater.
Deb Perelman:
Oh, my God.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so tiresome.
Deb Perelman:
No, there's no reason.
Jessie Sheehan:
Please, don't make me. Then on a flat serving plate, we're going to arrange seven of our chocolate wafer cookies side by side in a circle, and keeping one cookie in the center. And usually, the Nabisco Chocolate Wafer cookies that are no longer are two-and-a-quarter inches. So, I feel like that's our goal cookie-wise.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, and I should probably take a look because I think the Dewey's one are a little bit smaller, and then homemade you're going to have... Listen, you can go arrange in any... I probably am telling you how to do it for the specific cookie that we were buying back then, but in general, you're just going to go arrange them in a circular pattern on a plate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, we're going to spread half a cup of whipped cream on the cookies making a seven-inch circle of cream. Repeat with remaining cookies until we've made about 11, and cream, 11 layers of cookies-
Deb Perelman:
11 layers.
Jessie Sheehan:
... ending with a layer of cream. We're going to cover with plastic wrap, and I just wondered if you had a tip for not disturbing the top with-
Deb Perelman:
I have no recollection. Maybe I did it once the day I wrote the recipe. I'm sorry, I don't think I covered... I think the idea is that you want to leave a little bit of the chocolate cookie exposed because it's a little prettier that way, you get that lacy edge. It's not going to look as nice buried, so maybe there was this idea that you needed to cover... Maybe it was from another recipe, cover it with plastic wrap to make sure they got hydrated. But I just-
Jessie Sheehan:
You don't worry about it.
Deb Perelman:
I do not do that. I'm not putting plastic wrap on anything that is going to stick to... Oh, my God, you know when you're making dinner rolls, and the recipe tells you to cover it with plastic wrap overnight? I'm like, "Do you hate me? Do you hate me?" Because it never works.
Jessie Sheehan:
I agree. So, we're going to refrigerate overnight and then we're going to coat the topping lightly with chocolate shavings before servings. Couldn't be easier. Quick aside. Do you make shavings just with a little vegetable peeler, and any tips for us? Are you just using any bar-
Deb Perelman:
I'm just using any bar of chocolate I have laying around. I will say if it's not peeling well, you could warm it in your hands a little bit and then it'll peel nicely. But yeah, I just use a vegetable peeler and any chocolate I have around.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, that's the classic. The next icebox cake on the site appears two years later in 2009 when you make this homemade wafer cookies and you show peeps how to assemble icebox cupcakes. And it's very similar to the first recipe. This time there's a little powdered sugar in the cream. There are firm peaks rather than soft, which I assumed probably is better for a little cupcake shape. You want something maybe-
Deb Perelman:
I'm not even sure why I would do... Probably, I was concerned about it being too mushy and too messy. And I think the cupcakes were mostly because I wanted to talk about another recipe... I wanted to talk about homemade and then I wanted to show you something new to do since I've already shown you it existed.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, but I love this. Just two teaspoons of cream on the cookies. Stack them as high as you want. And I thought this was a great tip, which I have found definitely to be true, a little different for the graham cracker cookie, which we're going to talk about. But in general, homemade cookies take longer to soften than store bought, so you might need to keep them in the fridge for a bit longer.
Deb Perelman:
For that recipe, yes. I don't remember if I was slice and baking it. I think I was. Those took a little bit longer to soften. Not all of them do though.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then in 2016, seven years later, you keep your promise to your readers, and you make an icebox cake with a flavored whipped cream, and you share your chocolate peanut butter icebox cake with homemade cake-sized cookies. I implore all of the listeners to go read Deb's headnote to this recipe. It is hilarious. Do you remember it?
Deb Perelman:
No, I don't remember it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, so you talk all about how... You're like, "Once there was a boy and a girl, and the girl always made the boy birthday cakes. And then they had a baby, and then-"
Deb Perelman:
Totally accurate.
Jessie Sheehan:
"... and then she didn't make a birthday cake for five years."
Deb Perelman:
That's really funny. Yeah, that's completely accurate. I mean we literally never have time to make-
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Deb Perelman:
I had to make my own birthday cake for my mother-in-law this year. That's basically what it came down to. I didn't mind.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you write that, for this cake, you make these massive cake-sized cookies instead of tiny ones, and it's the best thing since icebox cake and peanut butter whipped cream that will ruin our lives. And it's funny, you said that before doing so, you had some significant doubts about whipped cream's ability to showcase the nuance of peanut butter.
Deb Perelman:
Yes, I have a real bone to pick with a lot of peanut butter desserts where I feel like they don't taste right or-
Jessie Sheehan:
Like peanut butter.
Deb Perelman:
I don't think peanut butter bakes that well. It should, but it often doesn't, so if you see me putting peanut butter in a baked good, it's because I believe that it holds up. But a lot of times I feel like it makes baked goods dry and crumbly, and I also feel like 90% of recipes that talk about a peanut butter and jelly combination don't really show off either in as delicious of a way as the sandwiches. But again, I have issues.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know.
Deb Perelman:
I'm very particular.
Jessie Sheehan:
But that's why we love you.
Deb Perelman:
It sounds like I'm being rude but it's also part of my job to be critical so I can make things that I think are better. So, I didn't really think it was going to come through in the whipped cream. I was very skeptical. I resisted for too many years, and then I did and I'm like, "This is actually amazing. It makes a very good, very simple whipped cream, so now I know."
And yes, this was also me pivoting to a simpler... Well, I feel like it's a simpler, more classic. As I said, the Alice Medrich adapted one, it's such a good cookie. You don't need to bury it in whipped cream for it to be good, just make it for a snack. But this, to me, was more designed to be a good one. But my first thought is, "We don't need to make individual cookie... Why are we using cookie cutters when we could just make one per layer?"
Jessie Sheehan:
With this recipe for the cookies, we're going to call for the food processor as we talked about. We get to skip the dough's 30-minute chill time, which is amazing, which is another one of your cookie tips because we're rolling it out when it's soft between two piece ourselves parchment, then sticking it in the freezer or refrigerator to chill, and then cutting it.
Deb Perelman:
Each technique, as it shows up, it becomes my new go-to. So, probably there are a couple of years where I started into the cold butter cookie recipes, and then a couple of years later I started doing the rollouts between the two pieces of parchment paper. I love it so much. Everything about it is smarter. Everybody is making rollout cookies too difficult. Roll it out when it's the softest. Roll it out between two pieces of parchment paper. You don't even need to flour your counter. You have nothing to clean up.
And then you pop it in the freezer for 10, 15, 20, whatever it is to get it firm, then you cut it cold, and you have very nice clean lines. You have no floured counter to clean up. It's so great. And again, you're rolling it out when it's easy, not when it's difficult.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, so we're going to heat our oven to 350. We're going to divide our dough into six equal pieces. Are you using a... How finicky are you? Are you-
Deb Perelman:
Absolutely not. I would say that probably I should use the scale. I would say, in general, I don't. My lazy shortcut, and again, it's not perfect. Risks are taken, but if it's either padded in the bottom of a bowl, or if the dough is on a counter, you can pad it into a round. And then you just cut it like you're making pie slices so you could just eyeball.
We all know what a quartered round looks like. We all know how to make clock hands on a clock, so you just do your best and it's a pretty solid way of getting relatively even. I will say if you end up with one a little short, just pull a scrap from another one that looks bigger, but that's my method.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to roll each of these six pieces between two pieces of parchment paper. And if memory serves, you are a fan of buying a box of those parchment sheets that are already the size of your half-sheet pan, correct?
Deb Perelman:
Oh, my God, I can't believe I waited. I was so resistant to them for so many years, and I'm like it seems so ridiculously bougie now. My collection of precut parchment is my greatest joy. When I made my daughter a six-inch birthday cake last weekend, I had just gone ahead and bought the box of six-inch rounds. I was like, "Thank you past me for thinking of me with this $5 investment that I have found nothing short of life-changing.
It's just a little thing but it makes things a lot easier. I might have used, for the icebox cake, maybe just 9 by 13 squares, but yeah. The ones for the quarter-sheet pan, whatever I was baking it in.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is there a brand of those parchment sheets that you love?
Deb Perelman:
I have a brand that I like. I'm not saying that it's necessarily better parchment than anywhere else. The parchment is great though. I find it to be very lightweight. Not too shiny or heavycoated. It's called Kana, K-A-N-A, but the actual reason I buy it is that I love the boxes they come in. I keep them bookshelf-style on top of my fridge so I can pull one out.
So, they're vertical and most of the time they're going to come in plastic wrap, and then you're going to have to keep them flat or structured somehow. And so, they stay in their box then you can easily slide a piece out. Also, the boxes will have a real millennial aesthetic or so I understand. I'm not a millennial so I couldn't tell you, but they look nice. They're not an eyesore.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right, so we're going to roll our pieces of dough between our two pieces of parchment until they're very thin, just over seven inches. Then we're going to slide the parchment-covered round onto a cutting board. I assume baking sheet would work, slide it into our freezer for about 10 minutes until firm. Take it out, peel back our top piece of parchment, and then with a seven-inch stencil, or a bowl, or a plate, are just going to cut around it with a sharp knife. I mean so brilliant.
Slide the cookie round, still on the parchment, onto a baking sheet and bake for 10 minutes. Cool completely, repeat with remaining five rounds. I mean hello-
Deb Perelman:
I love it. It is so easy.
Jessie Sheehan:
... could not be easier. Baking sheet brand.
Deb Perelman:
I don't have any loyalty. I have a few... I don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have to say, I like those Williams-Sonoma Goldtouch ones.
Deb Perelman:
I like those too. No, I keep the Williams-Sonoma Goldtouch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Deb Perelman:
I certainly like them for cookies. I like them, but I also, I use cheap pans a lot for roasting vegetables and they're a lot more beat up. Nordic Ware usually for uncoated, and then I usually use the Williams-Sonoma Goldtouch for where I want a coated pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love those. So, while the cookies are cooling 10 minutes, we're going to make our peanut butter whipped cream in a large bowl or in a stand mixer. We're going to beat peanut butter. Brand?
Deb Perelman:
Skippy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, hello, I was hoping you would say that. I was worried you would say Jif.
Deb Perelman:
I'm like everyone's like, "Can I use peanut butter?" I'm like, "Why? Why?" I mean I like it for maybe a toast or something like that, but no, we're a Skippy family. We're very basic.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, right. Skippy. Skippy, vanilla, salt. You didn't specify a type. Do you care if it's kosher or table or fine sea salt?
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, I actually care a lot, so I don't know why I didn't specify, but kosher salt's-
Jessie Sheehan:
Kosher.
Deb Perelman:
If I don't mention, it's kosher salt's fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good, good. Granulated sugar until smooth, and I love this little tip. So, while we beat all of that, we're going to slowly add our heavy cream just a small splash at a time until the mixture is loose enough that you can add the rest of the cream without it breaking into clumps.
Deb Perelman:
Yes, absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I love that tip, and we'll talk about it again with the cream almost cheesecaked filling for the graham cake because there it's mind-blowingly smart.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, because you're doing two wet things with completely different consistencies. You can't just blend them together. It's going to be difficult.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to whip our cream, watching it carefully because it's easy to overbeat until soft peaks form. We'll place our first cookie on a cake stand, and if the cookie's fighting around, we'll put a teeny bit of cream underneath it to stop it from moving. Thickly frost with a half cup of peanut butter cream. Keep going until all your cookies are done. You like to top with the cream and then garnish with chocolate sprinkles or Reese's or something tasty and yummy.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, exactly. Have fun with it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. Cake's in the fridge overnight, closer to maybe 24 hours because it's a homemade cookie.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, I think this cookie's a little bit tighter. You can go ahead and give it a day. It's probably going to be fine in the morning, but it's a slightly more dense whipped cream too, so just give it a day.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, and then we're going to slice with a knife dipped in hot water. And one year later in 2017, we're going to make strawberry graham icebox cake with a cream cheese, and I love this, "Read cheesecaked filling with fresh strawberries." Again, we're doing homemade cake-sized cookies. I love this. In defense of cake-sized cookies, you explain that the beauty of this technique, trick, tip, is that large cookies aren't limited by number. When you have a recipe and it doesn't make you enough cookies, then you have to double it if you're making an icebox cake, for instance, or size of a cake pan. And if the cookie breaks, it will still stack and be an excellent cake. There is only good about large cookies for an icebox cake. Love this.
Deb Perelman:
So, easy. I've convinced us. Most people do not believe me. I'm like, "It's a one-bowl cookie." It's so easy. It's really one of the easiest cakes in the world, but I understand people get stressed about rolling out cookies. You have to grease the pan. You don't have to worry about whether it gets stuck. You have to level the cake layers. Even if they came out horribly-looking they would still taste perfect inside the cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, to make the graham cookies in a food processor, we're combining some all-purpose flour. Do you have a brand of all-purpose that you love?
Deb Perelman:
I either use King Arthur or probably Goldtouch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. We're going to mix all-purpose. We're going to mix either fine or table salt. We're going to have a little bit of baking powder, cinnamon, cloves, dark brown sugar, and granulated. This is the brilliance of the food processor. We're going to use cold unsalted butter. We do not have to bring it to room temp. Run the machine until combined or until powdery. An egg, some honey, run the machine until the dough clumps and balls together, and then you do give instructions for using a stand mixer, but we do not have to do that.
Although, in a stand mixer, we beat our softened butter with our sugars then we add our egg and our honey, and then we do the classic Deb tip that changed the way I bake, which is you are sprinkling on your leavening and spices at this point rather than having taken a whole other bowl and whisked those things together in a all-purpose flour.
Deb Perelman:
Very lazy. I can teach the world laziness.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my God. But this is an incredible tip, peeps. I hope you are catching it. Deb does not, first step in a recipe, take her bowl of all-purpose flour and add baking soda, baking powder, and spices, and whisk. Uh-uh.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, no, I generally don't. Once in a while, there's a certain kind of cake that's so delicate that you really do need to... But usually, it's either sift or whisk your dry ingredients together and then add them gently. And my feeling is that it's complicated. The reason it's done that way is that there's a thought that you need to evenly distribute the baking powder and baking soda throughout the flour. But you want to make sure you don't overwork the flour in a baker because there's this idea that gluten is going to develop, which is the protein that will make flour tougher, make your cakes tougher.
I think this is all a little excessively worried about and isn't really necessary. So, what I tend to do is I tend to add baking powder, baking soda, that kind of thing, directly to the wet batter, mix it very well. We're not just mixing it. We're going to mix it, we're going to scrape it down, we're going to mix it thoroughly. And then, at the very end, you just add the flour, and then you have a one-bowl cake. You have the baking powder and baking soda very well distributed in the ingredients because you mixed it very well, scraped it out, and mixed it very well again. I'm lazy. I don't want to wash another bowl, and I don't want another step.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. And then you don't have to worry about overworking your flour because that's the only thing you're adding in.
Deb Perelman:
Exactly. Why am I making the baking powder difficult to not overwork the flour? If the baking soda and baking powder don't get well mixed in, you have this risk of a little bit of tunneling in the cake, but again, just listen to me. Mix it well, scrape down, mix it well one more time. I'm saying 10 seconds longer than you think you need to mix it, not an hour. And then I find that works really well and it's very friendly to home cooks.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to heat our oven at 350, we're going to divide our dough into six balls, roll out the first ball between two sheets of parchment until it's slightly larger than a seven-inch rim. Now, this is the only difference I see from our prep for our chocolate cake-sized cookies. Here, we're not going to trim yet. We're going to trim after we bake. Was that Deb just changing her way that she does this, or is it the dough that does better if you-
Deb Perelman:
The dough is soft. Yeah, that's a softer, stickier dough going into the oven, so it's a little easier to cut out. You could probably cut the chocolate cookies after two, but you got to do it right away. And with the chocolate cookies, you have more of a risk of the edges having dried out, so it might be a little bit fussier because you don't want to crack the...
It doesn't matter if you crack the whole cookie, but still doesn't mean that you want to crack the whole cookie. But the graham one's a little bit softer, so it's a little easier to cut after. But you forget to trim it before, and you cut it right after. It's going to be fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to remove our top sheet of parchment because we rolled the dough between the two sheets of parchment and we're going to place it on a baking sheet into the oven for eight minutes until a little shade darker on top, round at the edges. Don't even be afraid of medium brown. It just means it's crispy. But the moment it comes out of the oven, we'll place a seven-inch plate or bowl right on top of our hot cookie and use a sharp knife or pastry wheel to cut our cookie into a circle.
And actually, we leave our edges attached to the cookie at this point because they'll remove easily once they're cooled and why worry about it. And then we cool our cookies. You say, ideally, about three to four hours before serving, we're going to assemble because, as we've talked about, this is already a soft cake. You do not have to let this one cool overnight.
Deb Perelman:
But I also know in the years since I've published this recipe that I have the updated hindsight of people commenting, "I've heard it's even fine with an hour."
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, great.
Deb Perelman:
I'm not saying don't give it three or four, but it really is. It gets soft. In fact, you don't even necessarily want it overnight. You might find it a little too soft. It's not going to be too soft to eat, but an hour or two is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So, an hour. Up to four hours before serving we'll assemble. We don't need to rest this one overnight, and we're going to slice some strawberries paper thin with our sharpest knife. We're going to be laying them over the cream almost like a skinny layer of jam, and you can also substitute jam. We'll make our whipped cream, which is lemon flavored. We're going to place some granulated sugar in the bottom of our bowl or a stand mixer bowl, and we're going to rub our lemon zest into it, which helps... Do you want to tell people why we do that?
Deb Perelman:
I thought this might have been an old Dorie Greenspan tip.
Jessie Sheehan:
It is. I thought it was, yes.
Deb Perelman:
I love origin stories. I believe I've heard... That was the first place I read.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.
Deb Perelman:
But listen, you've got lemon zest, you have sugar. If you're going to add them dry together, you might as well... Lemon zest is full of oils that provide flavor and fragrance to baked goods or wherever you're adding it, so you might as well use the grittiness of the granulated sugar to rub it together for a minute. It also breaks it up, so you don't have strips, but it releases more flavor. And then I just did that because I think lemon and strawberry are really nice together, and also, a lemon cheesecake flavor goes very nicely with berries.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to add some soft cream cheese. Philadelphia.
Deb Perelman:
Philadelphia tastes to me, as an American, having grown up with American cheesecakes, the most like it. But if you grew up in a place that used cork instead, go use cork. It's fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to add some softened cream cheese. We'll beat until combined, light, and fluffy. We'll add some vanilla and salt. This is so genius. So, at this point, we're going to be adding our either heavy cream or a whipping cream. Can you remind me what the difference is?
Deb Perelman:
Because they're often used interchangeably. Sometimes I find that whipping cream has stabilizers in it to make it easier to whip it. I don't like the way the ones with stabilizers taste because I feel like there's more a waxy coating flavor on your tongue, but just use whatever your store has. In general, if I see both, I'm picking heavy cream now.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, at this point, we need to add the heavy cream to our beaten cream cheese, but we're just going to add a spoonful at a time at first because by doing so, we can avoid the cream cheese getting lumpy, correct?
Deb Perelman:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I never knew that.
Deb Perelman:
Well, it's just a consistency thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, but it's so smart.
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, I'm using the cream a spoonful at a time because it's the same thing. You're trying to take the cream cheese and stretch it out so you can lighten it enough that you can add the rest of the cream. Unless the cream cheese was softened... Listen, if you want to wait for your cream cheese to soften for a couple of hours, have fun. I don't want to do that, so this is how you can use it faster.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, and then once the mixture of the cream cheese and the cream is liquidy, then you can add the rest of the cream. Because I feel like that's a thing. I'm so impatient, and sometimes my cream cheese is lumpy, and I just can't be bothered, but this is brilliant. Anyway, little bit at a time.
Deb Perelman:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to beat the cream and the cream cheese until soft peaks form. To assemble, we'll put a small dab of whipped cream on the center of our serving plate, place down one of our cookies. Scoop a sixth of the cream because we're going to do six layers, onto our first cookie spread. Arrange strawberry slices in a single layer so the top is well-pebbled. I always love your descriptions.
Deb Perelman:
Thank you. Since you asked me how I divide the dough, I feel like it might be worth saying that I actually do not... I don't know that I even mentioned this in the recipe, but I also do not measure out the cream. I do the same thing. I might smooth it flat in a bowl, so you have a nice clean circle and then use the knife point to cut it into... Again, it's not a perfect system, and then I just try to scoop from that pile. That's how I roughly divide a bowl of whipped cream into sixths without doing-
Jessie Sheehan:
Brilliant.
Deb Perelman:
Because the idea of shoving it into a measuring cup, oh, oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Not happening.
Deb Perelman:
Again, who are you making this for, the queen, or our families?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, not happening. But that's brilliant. So, in other words, you mean literally the cream is in the bottom of the bowl, smooth the top-
Deb Perelman:
Yeah, I might mix in a little flour, try to deplete it, and then make a little grit like a mark of how many, and then just try to scoop from that area with the spoon.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect.
Deb Perelman:
It's not perfect, but if you need it to be more perfect, go weigh it out, divide it, or go measure it in cups.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect.
Deb Perelman:
This is good enough for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. We'll arrange our strawberry slices on top in a single layer, well-pebbled. Repeat five more times, rest our cake in the fridge before serving, and say fini. Thank you so much for chatting with me again today, Deb.
Deb Perelman:
Why'd you let me talk this much?
Jessie Sheehan:
And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Deb Perelman:
Thank you so much. I got an idea for four more icebox cakes while we were here, so I think I know what I have to do when I get home instead of making dinner. I fixed the dinner problem.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Nonino and California Prunes for supporting this episode. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your baking pals about us. Visit cherrybombe.com for today's recipe. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.