Dishing on Julia - episode 2 transcript
Mastering the Art of Julia Child
Julia Child:
And dare I say, it's just about the most delicious coq I ever put in my mouth, and that's saying something.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, wait. Don't go anywhere. You are in the right place. Believe it or not, that was America's original kitchen sweetheart, Julia Child, talking about chicken. And in particular, coq au vin, the famous French dish. But before we stew over that, I would like to welcome you to Dishing On Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, the HBO Max original series inspired by the life of Julia Child.
I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, and each week I'll recap a new episode of Julia, and chat with special guests about the making of the show, and the cultural impact of their culinary icon.
On this episode, I check in with executive producers, Erwin Stoff and Erica Lipez, to discuss how the Julia creative team mastered the art of Julia Child. How do you go about telling the story of someone so beloved and revered?
Hunter Fox:
I'm all ears, leaning in.
Kerry Diamond:
After Erica and Erwin, I'll talk with Paula Johnson, curator of food history at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. Paula was part of the team that acquired Julia Child's Cambridge kitchen for the museum, where it has been on display since 2002, along with artifacts like George Washington's uniform, the Star-Spangled Banner, and The Wizard of Oz ruby slippers. As we're going to learn, there's so much more to Julia Child than just food.
Julia Child:
But we're taking them on a journey, Paul. We can't start at the finish line.
Kerry Diamond:
So let's start at the starting line. We find Julia trying to decide what dish to make for the pilot of the cooking show she has pitched to local public television station, WGBH. French onion soup? Chocolate soufflé? "How about coq au vin?" suggests her husband, Paul. They kiss, all this food talk having made them a little frisky.
Kerry Diamond:
Next we're at the local A&P supermarket with Julia and Paul, cruising past cans of soup and meats wrapped in plastic. They're not in Paris anymore.
Paul:
Don't tell me you're going to use dried herbs.
Julia Child:
The whole point is to cook with what is available to most American women.
Paul Child:
Oh. I weep for them.
Kerry Diamond:
No tears because soon it's time for happy hour. Cocktail shaker in hand, Julia mixes up a drink for herself and her best friend, the widow Avis DeVoto. Julia takes a martini glass and pours something that looks suspiciously like cosmopolitan, but alas this is not Sex and the City. It would be a few decades before the invention of the Cosmo. Julia asks her gal pal Avis to help with the show.
Julia Child:
I envision a confederacy of women, an estrogen safety net.
Avis DeVoto:
Well, I like the sound of that.
Kerry Diamond:
The drinking continues at dinner when Paul raises a flute of his champagne to toast his wife. She's dejected, having been warned by Alice, that her boss Russ wants her show to sink like a sad soufflé.
Julia Child:
He probably thinks I'm a middle-aged dilettante with looks for radio.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia relays Alice's suggestion that she tried to win Russ over.
Julia Child:
But how'd you charm a man who does not find you in the least charming?
Kerry Diamond:
The answer for Julia is some pâté de foie gras with a side of flattery.
Julia Child:
I dare say we got off on the wrong foot. To have a man who's intellectually curious as you producing my little show is an embarrassment of fiction.
Russ Morash:
Well, thank you. I couldn't agree more.
Kerry Diamond:
On the walk home, Russ passes a bookstore selling copies of the Can-Opener Cookbook by one Poppy Cannon, a real book by the way, and a real author. He arrives in time for dinner. Tuna casserole topped with ... Are those crushed potato chips? Hmm. He presents his wife Marion with a gift, a copy of Julia's book. Fun fact. Russ's wife, Marion went on to work for Julia's TV show. And in the 1970s, she opened a restaurant in Nantucket with an all-female kitchen staff. Very ahead of her time that Marion.
That night poor Julia is melting down faster than the Gruyère and a croque monsieur. How in the world she wonders will she cook coq au vin, a four-hour dish in just 28 minutes?
Paul Child:
You know what takes less than 28 minutes?
Kerry Diamond:
Julia exiles her lusty husband to another room and places an SOS call to her editor at the Knopf Publishing House, Judith Jones. Eager to help, Judith cancels a lunch date with one of her authors. Well, not just any author, but John Updike who at the time was one of America's most celebrated novelists thanks to his debut Rabbit Run. Her boss, the imperious Blanche Knopf played by the always luminous Judith Light is not amused.
Blanche Knopf:
I need to say this out loud so you can really hear it. You are asking to jilt John Updike who, in your opinion, as I am hearing, it is also in a sort of crisis for a woman who wrote a cookbook with two other women trying to get on local television. I think, you know my answer.
Kerry Diamond:
Finally, it's showtime for Julia. Russ is welcome, though, is as warm as a bowl of vychisoisse.
Russ Morash:
You should do your hair and makeup.
Julia Child:
I've done my hair and makeup.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh, the taping of Julia's pilot is, well, a bit of a disaster. The stove is electric. The lights are blazing. The knives are dull. Russ' patience is thin. Julia recovers enough to finish the dish, suggests some wine pairings and improvise what would become her famous sendoff.
Julia Child:
I hope you've had as much fun as I did. This is Julia Child. Bon appétit.
WGBH Producer:
And cut.
Kerry Diamond:
Perfect catchphrase aside, Julia knows this has not gone well. She apologizes to everyone and departs arm in arm with Paul. The show finally airs. Paul, ever the optimist, pops a bottle of Dom Perignon. Julia uses this moment to share that she's entered menopause and asks something that is weighing on her, perhaps even more than the success of her show.
Julia Child:
You'll still love me.
Paul Child:
You're my partner in crime. After all these years, professionally now to boot. Of course, I'll still love you.
Kerry Diamond:
And with that, Julia turns on the television. Her life and ours will never be the same. Now I'd like to welcome my first guests, Julia executive producers, Erica Lipez and Erwin Stoff. We're going to talk about how the Julia creative team mastered the art of Julia Child and a few other fun things.
Kerry Diamond:
Erwin and Erica, welcome to Dishing on Julia. Erwin, let's go with you first. Do you remember when or how you learned about Julia Child and what your first impressions were?
Erwin Stoff:
I learned about Julia Child right after coming to the States and watching television here. And I saw this funny character cooking on television, which was a very bizarre concept and idea at the time. And that's really what brought Julia Child to my attention.
Kerry Diamond:
You were young when you came to America. Could you tell us a little bit about how you wound up here?
Erwin Stoff:
My family and I escaped from Romania and literally landed in Los Angeles from Transylvania in a 48-hour period with quite literally the clothes on our backs. We were brought over by my mother's sister. She sponsored us. We escaped and just contacted the American Embassy and all of that. We arrived in Los Angeles as these immigrants who didn't speak a word of English.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't imagine being 14, escaping what you'd escaped and landing in LA.
Erwin Stoff:
Well, sort of just because we're talking about food and all of that, the most amazing sight and impressive sight that I saw was the first supermarket that I went into. I'd never seen a supermarket before. Generally, when you went to a store in Romania, the shelves were empty and you kind of bought whatever one of the three cans that happened to still be there if you had the ration stamps for it. So I had literally never seen a supermarket before.
Kerry Diamond:
When you talked about seeing Julia Child on TV and you couldn't believe someone was cooking on television, your mind really must have been blown as a young teenager.
Erwin Stoff:
Yeah. The other thing that sort of impressed me about it, and this was a little bit later one of my first impressions about life in America was how incredibly bland and uninteresting food was here. There was a lot of it, but none of it was very interesting.
Kerry Diamond:
Erica, how about you? Your generation didn't grow up with Julia Child.
Erica Lipez:
I remember her as someone almost always being there. I think she sort of felt a little like Santa Claus to me. Like she was just this larger than life figure. And it's hard to remember, I think at that point in time, whether you learned about her as a woman first, as the parody of her that we sort of saw so much on SNL and different things. But I just sort of knew she was famous. And I think over time, I started to connect just how iconic she was when I found one of her recipes in a cookbook in middle school and tried to bake her Queen of Sheba cake. And it was delicious. And I think that's what it really clicked for me.
Kerry Diamond:
What about Julia appealed to your sensibilities as a writer and a producer?
Erica Lipez:
When I first heard about this project from Chris and Daniel, the thing that it excited me most was that it was really focusing on this one incredible moment of time when she created her show. And I think I was so excited to tell a story about a woman finding her career and passion in her 50s. I just think that is not a story that gets told very often, let alone in a period piece in the '60s. And it just was an incredible opportunity, I think, to show just how groundbreaking that was. But also I think to give a lot of people hope, to give myself hope. I think we need more stories like that, and I think it was incredibly exciting to be a part of that.
Kerry Diamond:
Erwin, when I think about you and your body of work, I think of big futuristic projects like The Matrix, not the story of a humble Cambridge housewife circa 1962. I'm curious. What about Julia's life or what she represents appealed to you?
Erwin Stoff:
To be perfectly honest, initially I kind of thought, "I don't know. Is that interesting? Do I really care," and so on. And then as I thought about it for a couple of days, the notion that ...
And as I thought about it for a couple of days, the notion that began to interest me and what I sort of was stimulated by is in thinking back on how unlikely a feminist icon, Julia Child, was. And what I began to get fascinated with was the idea of her potentially not quite understanding the role that she played in the culture and chasing the understanding of that. That's what interested me.
Kerry Diamond:
Erica, did you have any rules of storytelling when it came to telling Julia's story?
Erica Lipez:
The rules aren't set in stone. I think they're the basic elements that you want to be honest and truthful, but that doesn't have to mean factual. I think we all did a lot of research. It's almost like memorizing lines for a play. You and memorize them and then let them go a little bit.
I think we all read the books and we did the research, but then you have to let it go a little bit and just let them be living people. And a lot of us, I think, learned some about Julia through the movie that was made, but that movie was covering a lot of territory in two hours, and we got to tell eight episodes covering one year of her life.
And there was such an opportunity for detail and complexity in that. And so I think one of the rules we had was to allow Julia to have rough edges. Her joy and her optimism and her humor were a huge part of her and, I think, what she really led with.
But she also had her own moods and self doubt and she had her complicated feminism and she wasn't perfect. And I think if we had a rule, it was to allow her to be complex and to be a real woman.
Kerry Diamond:
We see Julia really struggling in this episode as she faces resistance from some staffers at WGBH and her own insecurities. Today, might manifest itself as imposter syndrome. But back then she wasn't being an imposter because there was no one to really copy. What were you trying to establish with this episode?
Erica Lipez:
I mean, I think what we were trying to show was what it takes to create something entirely new. I've tried to cook Julia's recipes. You cannot cook them in 30 minutes. So how did Julia do that within a TV show and translate that to an audience? Even the idea of prepping food in advance and the timing that took, and how to talk and cook at the same time. I'm not great at talking and cooking at the same time.
And I think the joy of Julia is that she was a little messy at it too. If you look at her early shows, she really had to find the sort of method behind the madness. And part of that was embracing her mistakes and she became sort of known for them. And there was also a real rhythm and precision to it within those mistakes.
And she had to create that. So I think the show was really breaking that down and showing how someone might do that. And our imagination of that being, not just Julia, but also Paul and her editor, Judith, and the producers at the TV show, Alice Naman. That it really took a team to create that model.
Kerry Diamond:
Irwin, did you have a favorite moment or scene in Episode 2?
Erwin Stoff:
I think my favorite moment is a relatively shorter small scene, which is when she goes to Avis' house to pick her up. And Avis is sort of depressed, I guess, at that point. In the '60s, you would say she was blue, and was mourning the loss of her husband and the state of her life and so on and so forth.
Erwin Stoff:
And what I really liked about that scene, and there's a lot of this in the show, is how infectious her joie de vivre was. She inadvertently created a second act for other people also. She created a second act for Paul, she created a second act for Avis, et cetera. That scene, for some reason, just really affected me.
Kerry Diamond:
In the process of working on this project, is there something you learned about Julia that surprised you?
Erica Lipez:
I think this episode is a good example. She is such a champion of her female friends and the women around her, but she still feels really comfortable in the realm of wooing and servicing men. And I think we see that in this episode with the way she is really good at winning over rest. That it's second nature to her that she doesn't really think twice about it being something she needs to do.
But I mean, that being said, I think that surprised me about her, but I was really comforted and impressed by the way she changed and evolved over the course of her life. She was open. And the change, I don't think was always immediate or happened exactly when we would hope it would happen, but she wasn't a closed off person.
Kerry Diamond:
Irwin, how about you? Anything surprise you?
Erwin Stoff:
What I'm about to say may be really controversial and Erica may completely blanch here and say, oh no. How could you say that? The reality and the truth of who somebody really was when you're doing a show about somebody who lived is relatively uninteresting to me. I mean, her name is Julia Child. Sarah Lancaster plays her. She's a totally invented character and designed to tell a story and fit a framework that we want to tell.
I've had a lot of experience in doing real life stories. And it's never about, oh, getting to the truth of that person. When I do make either a movie or a show about a real life person, the reason that I wind up doing it is because there's something about that person or that person's existence with a story that I'm interested in telling. I don't really care that much about the real person. I'm not a documentarian. I leave that to the people that make documentaries.
Kerry Diamond:
But, Irwin, don't people watch a lot of these shows and treat them like they're documentaries, even though they're clearly marked as biopics or fiction?
Erwin Stoff:
If all you take away from this show is, oh, I got to know Julia Child, I think that the show is more than that. I think the reason you do shows about real people is to tell a larger story. I don't think you do shows about real people for educational purposes. I think, I'll use the word again, there's poetic license you take to tell a larger story. My favorite sort of biographical movie of all time is Amadeus.
Kerry Diamond:
There are a lot of Amadeus fans on this cast and crew.
Erwin Stoff:
Oh, is that right?
Kerry Diamond:
You're the second person to bring that up.
Erica Lipez:
It's referenced in the writer's room a lot.
Kerry Diamond:
Everyone is making a mental note to watch Amadeus now after they see Episode 2. Erica, poetic license. How do you and the folks in the writer's room feel about that?
Erica Lipez:
There are a lot of really good biographies written about Julia Child and documentaries. So I agree with Irwin. That's not what we were setting out to do. I think we hope to do both, honor the real Julia Child, but also create something more about this specific moment in history, about the birth of public television, about what television means, about the power that comes when a group of women work together.
There were a lot of things we were trying to pull off. And I think Julia was a way into getting to tell a lot of really interesting stories. I think one that probably people don't know as much about that we get to tell a lot of over the course of the season is about her amazing editor, Judith Jones. I think also not a biography, but Judith Jones was an incredible real life figure who I don't think a lot of people know about. And this show is a way to honor her too among others.
Kerry Diamond:
Irwin, I know there is a factual aspect to this series that is very important to you, and that is public television. I'm curious, why do you love this part of the Julia story?
Erwin Stoff:
There was an attempt in the mid '60s to reckon with the enormous power that television had and to do something that was less empty headed than the fair that was on those three network. Julia Child and Fred Rogers were probably the two towering figures at that time, without whom I don't know how long it would've taken public television to come into being.
But I think that television has a responsibility the culture and to the country, et cetera, et cetera, to exercise the enormous power it has for educational purposes, for broadening our view of ourselves, and so on and so forth.
Kerry Diamond:
Erica, what, if any public television shows did you watch growing up?
Erica Lipez:
Well, we were a big PBS household. I watched a ton of public television growing up. I mean, I think I did all of the big kid shows of that time. Sesame Street, Mister Rogers', Reading Rainbow was really big. And then I got very hooked in with my mom to Masterpiece Theatre.
Erica Lipez:
I was a total Masterpiece Theatre lover. It's now Masterpiece Classics and Masterpiece Mystery. And those were amazing stories. I think that's part of what made me want to be a TV writer was watching those sort of big book adaptations that they would do.
Kerry Diamond:
I do want to give a shout out to Sesame Street, Electric Company. And for those of you who remember this at home 3-2-1 Contact.
Erica Lipez:
I do remember that. I do. I've been showing my two-year-old early Sesame Street episodes. I almost like them better than the newer. They hold up so well.
Kerry Diamond:
Irwin, you talked about food and American food. I want to confirm for the record, you do not cook, correct?
Erwin Stoff:
I do not cook. I do make omelets.
Kerry Diamond:
You do-
Kerry Diamond:
Correct.
Erwin Stoff:
I do not cook. I do make omelets.
Kerry Diamond:
You do make omelets. Like Julia Child?
Erwin Stoff:
That's about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, walk me through your omelet making.
Erwin Stoff:
I will go to the Beverly Hills Cheese Shop starting in the fall through winter and buy truffles, Gruyere cheese, shave them myself and put them in the omelets.
Kerry Diamond:
And do you do the whole pan shaking? Do you do like a proper French omelet?
Erwin Stoff:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Nice.
Erwin Stoff:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Since you don't really make anything else I wanted to ask you, during this episode Julia invites her producer Russ to try to win him over. I wanted to know Erwin, are you a fan of making deals over meals?
Erwin Stoff:
I'm not a fan of making deals over meals. I think that, that's kind of a cliché, but what I am a big fan of is getting to know someone over a meal which makes the deal making on the phone the next day a lot easier.
Kerry Diamond:
Got it. Erica, deals over meals? And don't be swayed by Erwin's answer.
Erica Lipez:
Well, and it's kind of a funny part, I know I said earlier that I was an executive producer on the show, I am, but that's a way of just saying I'm a writer on the show. I'm not really a producer like Erwin and I have never had to make a deal in my life, that's what my agents are for. So I like Erwin, I love getting to know people over meals, but first of all I'd be a terrible deal maker and I don't think food would make it any better. So hopefully I will never have to make a deal.
Erwin Stoff:
I also think people tell you who they are in ways over a meal. What are they ordering? How do they indulge themselves? Do they not indulge themselves? Do they relish their food? Do they pay attention to what they order? Are they thoughtful about what they order?
Kerry Diamond:
So Erwin, if I order the mozzarella sticks and the blooming onion the deals off the next day?
Erwin Stoff:
I don't know. Here's one thing which maybe tells you all you need to know about me, when I pick a restaurant to go to I know what I'm going to eat there. I don't pick a restaurant just to go to a restaurant. I will pick a restaurant and drive the extra 15 minutes because there's something particular I want there.
Kerry Diamond:
Erica, how about you? On a scale of Erwin to Julia Child, say, where do you fall?
Erica Lipez:
I am getting better at cooking but my great love is baking. I like rules, I've always liked the science of baking, it appealed to me from a young age. The sort of improvisation of cooking is not my strong suit so even if I cook something I need to follow a recipe, which does make me love Julia Child because she sort of has the same philosophy of follow these rules and it will turn out well, but I just I don't know, I love flour, butter, sugar, it's all those things combined, that's my joy.
Kerry Diamond:
You have to tell us what you make.
Erica Lipez:
I make really good chocolate chip cookies. I know everyone says that but I definitely think that is one of my strong suits. I have made bread. I've made Julia's baguettes. I wrote the episode where they try to figure out how to make a baguette recipe, so-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that episode.
Erica Lipez:
... my research was making French bread, which is great research to have to do.
Kerry Diamond:
Judith Jones fans need to stay tuned for that episode because that's a fun one. Okay, back to the chocolate chip cookies. Do you refrigerate your cookie dough?
Erica Lipez:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh, okay.
Erica Lipez:
And that is, I feel like refrigeration and salt are the key. I should say my recipe comes from the best bakery in Maine, which is called Scratch Bakery. I grew up in Maine and they publish their recipes and their recipe for chocolate chip cookies the best I've ever had.
Kerry Diamond:
Did other folks in the writers room make dishes? Did you all talk about this and turn it into a little competition?
Erica Lipez:
We should do that now, I think. But we were very supportive of each others cooking. I know a lot of other people... There were some real cooks in our writers room. I remember Daniel making a lot of the recipes. Everyone dabbled a little bit.
Kerry Diamond:
If Julia were coming to dinner what's the one thing you would make and who's the one person you would bring? And Erwin, I'm going to let you either cook for her or take her out.
Erwin Stoff:
I would take her for Korean food. I can even tell you the name of the restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
Please do.
Erwin Stoff:
Called Soban in Los Angeles in Korea Town and I'd bring my wife along to translate.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. Is your wife a Julia fan?
Erwin Stoff:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So Erica, how about you? You can bake, you can cook. What would you like to do with Julia?
Erica Lipez:
I would also... I'd bring my spouse, I'd bring my husband, because I would let him do the cooking while I just got to relax and have a drink with Julia. That would be my approach to a dinner with Julia. He's Bosnian, so he would make her some traditional Bosnian food and it would be delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Well you two are amazing. I just, I've love talking to you and I just love the show that you two have helped bring into the world and I can't thank you enough for your time today.
Erica Lipez:
Well thank you so much. This has been so fun.
Erwin Stoff:
Thank you so much. It was really fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Now, let's head to Washington D.C for our chat with Paula Johnson, food history curator at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. As mentioned, Paula was part of the team that acquired Julia's Cambridge kitchen for the museum where it's on permanent display.
Kerry Diamond:
Paula Johnson, so nice to see you.
Paula Johnson:
It's great to be here. Thanks so much, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
Welcome to Dishing on Julia. So let's get right into it, why did the team at the museum feel Julia's kitchen was a national treasure worth saving and displaying? I mean you know this well, the museum houses truly iconic pieces like Dorothy's ruby slippers, a uniform worn by George Washington, which blows my mind, The Star-Spangled Banner. I mean I could go on and on.
Paula Johnson:
Yes, well the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History collects many types of objects and many stories that reflect the lived experiences of diverse Americans, and those iconic objects that you just mentioned are often the most widely known and visited. And Julia Child's kitchen has become one of those must see experiences. And not just once, but over and over again. Fans of Julia are always present in the museum, I will tell you that.
But to answer your question about why, Julia Child is such a key and much beloved figure in American culinary and cultural history. We knew that we wanted to collect something from her that would reflect and represent her amazing story and her ongoing impact. This is the kitchen where she tested recipes, this is where she cooked with and for her family and friends, this is where her last three television series were taped in the 1990s. So this kitchen represented her 40 years in Cambridge, Massachusetts which coincided with her amazing career, because after all her career was launched the publication of Mastering the Art of French Cooking, Volume 1, and that occurred in 1961 which is the very year that she and her husband Paul moved into the house. So at the time when we were collecting the kitchen, this was already 20 years ago in 2001, she was leaving her Cambridge home to move back to her home state of California and when we arrived for our first visit that August we hadn't yet determined what those objects might be. And truth be told it wasn't until we had spent some time in the kitchen itself speaking with Julia around the kitchen table and hearing her talk about the history of its design, of certain tools and decorative elements, and just how much the layout reflected how she cooked, that was when we asked her to consider donating the entire contents of the room.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you tell us a few things that are special about this magical kitchen? I know some of these things only because you've told me and I don't know that viewers of Julia will necessarily catch some of these details.
Paula Johnson:
One thing I always say, it's important to realize that this was Julia and Paul's ninth kitchen, that during their years abroad Julia had to work in many small kitchen spaces, tiny kitchen spaces. So when they moved into the house on Irving Street in Cambridge in 1961 they took the time to design just what they wanted because they knew what they wanted by that point and to make it their own. So that meant everything from the cool color scheme, the blues and greens, the kind of 1960s look, the maple butcher block counter tops that were raised two inches to suit Julia's height, the peg board covered walls for hanging pots and pans. Many people know that Paul arranged them first, then outlined their shapes in black or red marker so there would be no guessing about where a pot belonged. You have to remember that many people were eventually cooking in that kitchen so it was important that things got put back, but that was part of the original design and is still so special.
You know, another element that I love is the central dining table which was feature Julia really preferred. She liked eating in the kitchen and she even liked entertaining, having dinner with guests in the kitchen, up to about eight people. And then there are little signs all around the kitchen, Dymo labels, and masking tape warning people not to put onion skins in the garbage disposal or identifying which ceramic crock held the spoonery or the forkery. Those are the kind of little special touches that again I think appeal to a lot of our visitors.
Kerry Diamond:
It is a humble kitchen at the end of the day.
Paula Johnson:
It's a very serious working lab. If you start looking at all of the tools and the arrangements and things, I mean it's very coherent, very smart, very reflecting her philosophy of cooking. But you're right that it seems a little homey because it seems hold timey, it has a table right in the middle of the space, there's no cooking island, it has these colors that just evoke another time and place. It feels cluttered to people who think of a gourmet kitchen as one that has these areas of clear countertops, but everything was out on the countertops because that's where she-
Paula Johnson:
... The countertops because that's where she needed them. That's how she used them.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that you said people find the kitchen to be homey because at the end of the day it was home.
Paula Johnson:
Absolutely and that's what she said. This is the beating heart and social center of my home.
Kerry Diamond:
Paula, what item in the kitchen is most dear to you?
Paula Johnson:
I do have a soft spot for the big Garland range, the six burner Garland. This was purchased used, from a restaurant here in Washington, DC. And you know, this was the range that she never, ever wanted to replace. She was cooking on a range that really had been used for 50 years and to me, this is just so remarkable.
I'm also very fond of the table and chairs that were made in Norway and I'm partial to little surprises in the kitchen. There's a small image painted on tin of San Pasqual, the patron Saint of cooks and kitchens, which hangs among the copper pots and the cast iron cookware. So I guess you can see that I love the utilitarian things as well as the whimsy, because that's Julia's kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Paula, let's talk about how the museum came to acquire the kitchen.
Paula Johnson:
We learned, like many people, that Julia was leaving her Cambridge home in August of 2001. She was planning to return to her home state of California and like good museum food history curators, we asked ourselves, "Well, what's going to happen with her kitchen." And like Julia's fans, we felt we knew a bit about it because we had seen her three television series that were taped in that very kitchen, including her last with Jacques Pépin, Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home.
My colleague, Raina Green, picked up the phone and called Julia. Julia answered the phone that day and Raina asked if we could just come up and speak with her about her plans. And Julia of course, was most welcoming, most generous and basically said, "Come ahead." So, Raina, Nancy Edwards and I got on a plane and soon crossed the threshold into the marvelous space that was Julia's kitchen.
I'll just say here that we felt such excitement crossing that threshold and realizing that this space, displayed such intent and such purpose, and that it indeed reflected Julia's approach to cooking, having tools at hand. Everything was out on the countertops on pegboard. We also became aware that others, including Julia's wonderful assistant Stephanie Hersh, were hoping that the Smithsonian might be interested in the kitchen, which was just wonderful to know that people were also thinking that way.
So after speaking with Julia about our work in food and wine history at the National Museum of American History, we asked her to consider the donation. She was taken aback a bit, but spoke with her family and ultimately that same day, decided to trust the museum with her amazing legacy. And of course, we're very grateful for that.
I guess I'll just add here that she realized our interest amounted to more than a celebrity kind of deal. We saw this as a way to engage our millions of visitors in explorations of culinary and cultural history and to extend her powerful message of learning new skills and cuisines of caring about food and commonsality and enjoying the creative acts of cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
So Paula, you mentioned the cultural and the culinary side of Julia and the show does focus on both, but we don't often talk about Julia as a cultural icon. It's overshadowed by the culinary side. As a curator, you have known that side of Julia, all along. I'd love to know from your perspective, what was Julia's biggest cultural contribution.
Paula Johnson:
She had a tremendous influence on food and eating in America, at a critical period of time. I guess I would just say that her message, it was a powerful message, delivered in the most engaging way imaginable at a right moment in history, when ideas about gender, about roles, about who belonged where, about who could do what, were really in everyone's minds.
Kerry Diamond:
I also have to say, I love the latent life pivot, how she just didn't know what she wanted to do with her life. Didn't even start cooking until her thirties, which is remarkable. And then the book comes out when she's 49. She becomes a TV star in her fifties. No previous experience. It's just a very inspiring story.
Paula Johnson:
It absolutely is. And again, in terms of history, that her timing was impeccable. I mean, would she have been able to make a difference 10 years later when food television may have been taken another turn? I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
Paula, I did not ask you. Do you cook? All these times I've talked to you, I have no idea. Do you cook?
Paula Johnson:
Yes, I do. I try. I do try. I will confess my husband's a better cook than I am.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Paula Johnson:
Yep. Truth be told.
Kerry Diamond:
If Julia were coming over for dinner, at your kitchen, tell us one dish you would definitely make and one guest you would invite to join you both.
Paula Johnson:
I have all of her cookbooks and over the years we have enjoyed trying different dishes, but I'd take a different tack for this scenario. I think I would focus on something local, fresh, iconic ingredients, because we know how much she loved tasting local delicacies. I mean, she was always trying things in her travels.
I am really fortunate to live near the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland, so I would call up my favorite picker of Atlantic blue crabs, Janice Marshall of Smith Island and I would arrange to purchase her exquisitely picked crab meat. I would then find Janice's recipe for crab cakes, or because of Julius's fondness for butter, I might make a St. Mary's Imperial crab from the classic cookbook, Maryland's Way. One of those two. Then of course I would have to have some sort of coleslaw and pickles and maybe a fresh peach galette or something for dessert.
As for who would be there as well, I have to tell you, I would have loved to have met Paul Child. Honestly, I have read so much. I've seen so many photographs. I adore his photography, his artwork, and everything I've been able to learn about him. I would love to have Paul Child at the table too, but you know, I'm hedging my bets here. If I'm choosing someone who is still alive today, I think it would have to be Chef José, Andrés. He is someone, I mean, can you imagine the dialogue?
Kerry Diamond:
I just got goosebumps. I have to be honest.
Paula Johnson:
I mean, it would be tremendous fun to sort of witness their interaction about food, about cooking, but also about the world. I mean, José is so involved in World Central Kitchen and what is going on where and doing what he can, where and even Julia was also very concerned about what was going on in the world. And so I think that they would have a lot to talk about and of course, selfishly I would be there serving them, learning a lot along the way, but that's kind of what I'm imagining.
Kerry Diamond:
That is a conversation I would love to overhear.
Paula, thank you so much. I always love talking to you and just on behalf of everybody, thank you for rescuing that kitchen. I can't even imagine if we didn't have that kitchen today.
Paula Johnson:
Well, thank you, Kerry. It's great to speak with you and I've enjoyed this conversation very much.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for this episode of Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, now streaming on HBO Max. Dishing on Julia is produced by Cherry Bombe Media. Thank you to the Cherry Bombe team, including Executive Producers, Catherine Baker and Audrey Payne. Special Projects Editor Donna Yen, Associate Producer, Jenna Sadhu and Editorial Assistant, Krista White. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Special thanks to Steven Tolle and the team at City Vox for the audio production.
Check back as we dish on the latest episode of Julia and chat with our cast and crew and special industry guests.
Paul Child:
To Julia.
Julia Child:
To us.