Isabel Coss Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and the author of four baking books. Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around, and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
My guest today is Chef Isabel Coss, the pastry and culinary whiz behind two buzzy restaurants in Washington D.C. Isabel is the Executive Pastry Chef of Lutèce, a French bistro, and Executive Chef of Pascual, a new modern Mexican spot in the District. The Mexico City native got her start at just 17-years-old working as a bread baker at Pujol, which some of you might know as one of the best restaurants in the world. In this episode, Isabel talks to me about growing up in Mexico with parents who loved art and music, why she likes to be with her food, and her love for traditional Mexican panaderias. She also shares her recipe for buñuelos, fried dough fritters dusted in sugar and cinnamon. Isabel has such an infectious spirit, and I know you're going to love hearing from her, so stay tuned for our chat. If you'd like to follow along, you can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
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Let's check in with today's guest. Isabel, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk buñuelos with you, and so much more.
Isabel Coss:
Jessie, I'm so excited to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you are originally from Mexico City, and I know that when you were little, you wanted to be a ballerina. So can you tell us a little bit about dance? Because I imagine that the discipline of ballet and dance must really feed you today as a pastry chef.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, born and raised in Mexico City. I grew up there, all my family is still there. It's the city that shaped me. Mexico City is a hard city, so you need it for life and for this industry, and for cooking in restaurants professionally, just as ballet.
I wanted to study ballet because I actually wanted to study filming. That was the career I wanted. But there's a very famous school in Mexico. To enter, you need to already be proficient in another form of art. And I had already been doing ballet, and so I went professionally in ballet to try to get into this school.
It was an amazing career, it was an amazing journey. I did it for many years. And I got accepted into this school. And the day I got accepted, I remember being like, "I don't think I can continue doing this. I need to slide a new path."
But I had already been introduced to arts, to music, to movement, to discipline. I went from ballet to soccer right away, like the opposite. I cut my hair because I remember, for ballet, you need to have very long hair for your hair buns. First thing I did, I cut my hair in the mirror. It was like a reinventing-myself type of moment at a very young age.
But in all of that and all the changes and all the changes of growing, art, movement, discipline stayed with me. So I keep searching that type of feeling that dancing gives you, that movement. And I found it in a kitchen. I didn't know what to study, and that's when I jumped on it. And I felt it in a kitchen. I'm like, "Wow, I'm back into my element."
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that you have said that in Mexico City everyone is always eating.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So was food a big part of your life growing up? Were your parents cooks or...
Isabel Coss:
My mom cooks, but just the day-to-day feeding the family. Because I was in ballet, I literally had a diet until I was maybe 15. I was on a very strict diet. But my grandma cooks. My grandma from my dad's side is from Michoacan. She's an amazing cook, and my mother's mom is also an amazing cook.
But even all the mothers, there's a lot of incredible food around all the time. I remember when I started trying, in my revolution and then my reinventing, was trying a lot of food for the first time or experience again pambazos, tortas, the candies.
All the candy stands in Mexico, I think they're so beautiful, the panaderias, all the chachitos, and crust, and conchas. So food is always around in Mexico. I always say, you stand up in any street and you look around, people have just things in their mouths, either a popsicle or a taco, or anything. I love that environment.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was it really until you were 15 because you had this very disciplined diet due to being a ballerina, was it after that, like when you started to play soccer maybe that you were more, as you said, revolutionized or reintroduced-
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... to all these foods that you hadn't eaten? Oh, I love that.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. But I knew the food. I have tried them and I grew up with them. It was stuff that I had tried, but suddenly it was the freedom of, I want to try everything. And from there, it comes like the, oh, if I go to a taqueria, I want the tripe, and I wanted the head, I wanted the eyes, I wanted the afvals, because suddenly everything was available.
It is good to have those type of experiences with food. I think that also happened to me when I moved to New York City when I was 19. Same, you go to a deli shop, you go to the bodegas, like a chopped-cheese sandwich. Wow, it's so good to go to a new place.
Jessie Sheehan:
I want a chopped-cheese sandwich right now.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I know that both of your parents, I think, were woodworkers?
Isabel Coss:
My dad, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your dad?
Isabel Coss:
My dad's family.
Jessie Sheehan:
So like a family of creatives, yes?
Isabel Coss:
Yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
You grew up in an environment of creativity?
Isabel Coss:
Definitely, definitely. My mom pushes discipline, my dad pushes creativity. My dad is a very free soul, and he loves music. My mom too. So, my house, there was always someone playing an instrument. Every time I hear someone playing a guitar, that's when I feel at home. That hits a chord, because yes, both my parents like art a lot. They're very specific with their art, and their music especially.
Jessie Sheehan:
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So your culinary career started when you were only 17 when you dropped out of college and began work as a bread maker at the award-winning, world-class Pujol. Did you go there because you suddenly realized you wanted a career in food or did you go there just because you needed a job?
Isabel Coss:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
How did that happen?
Isabel Coss:
I was starting culinary career... So I was studying Public Relations in El Politecnico, and then, on the night I was starting cooking, because my parents, they support me, but they support me, you know, "I support you, but you still have to do that other thing that makes me feel good." It's the traditional Mexican family.
So, they definitely liked the idea of it, but they thought I was going to get tired of it, and I think a way to prove it wrong, it was like, I need to get myself in a kitchen. And the opportunity appeared. I went into the restaurant and I asked, "Can I please work here?" And I kind of, "Please, please, please," and then they let me, and I ended up there.
There were definitely girls in the kitchen, there were women in the kitchen. In Mexican cocinas, in the Mexican kitchens there's always a position that I find super interesting. It's called the mayora. In all the positions like chef, chef of cuisine, sous chef, cook, like a dishwasher, there's a position for a mayora.
It's reserved for a lady that has been working in the restaurant for a long time, that knows all the recipes, that works like a nurturer, that works like a protector, she checks every recipe. If you're feeling bad, you go with the mayora, because you're like, "Hey, I do..." She will help you out. And that was a mayora. A respectful position in Mexico was a mayora.
Jessie Sheehan:
That is fascinating, Isabel.
Isabel Coss:
Fascinating.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it's always a woman?
Isabel Coss:
And it's always a woman.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh.
Isabel Coss:
And I don't think all restaurants have it, but it's a position that exists in many restaurants, and it's usually someone that either maybe started working in another position like in cooking, cleaning, prep, whatever, and people see how good she's at cooking, because a lot of women in Mexico grew up doing it, and they have that power that they just cook so good, so they end up in those positions.
Our mayora back then was Siri. She's incredible. She passed away. But I think yes, the chef was a big influence, but you have this, also, position of power and nurturing.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. It's like, if you think of the kitchen as the family, we have the chef father, the mayora mother.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Isabel Coss:
And they're not functional family's kitchen, but-
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Isabel Coss:
It didn't really matter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Dysfunctional family.
Isabel Coss:
They're very dysfunctional, but you aim to be functional. I think now we have better.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you've said you sort of fell into the pastry kitchen, and I've also read that you ended up falling in love with the freedom of the pastry department, and also, there were better snacks.
Isabel Coss:
There were better snacks in pastry, there's always better snacks. Everybody comes to you because they want to try something... There's freedom, there's freedom in pastry. You can take an ingredient and shape it to whatever you want. You can do so much with a piece of meat, but you can grab a strawberry and bend it, make it a twirl, make it an ice cream. The possibilities are, I think, endless on pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think when you were at Pujol, you were making bread.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about the bread that you made?
Isabel Coss:
It was a little more French back then. The restaurant has changed a lot. It was many years ago. It was a very cool time. I think it was the first time the restaurant made it to the 50 Best list. We were all, as a team, trying to put that Mexican cuisine on the map. We didn't know how.
And I think, back then, you still thought that to put our cuisine, you needed to do some European traditional stuff, so our bread reflected that. It was a French program. We had a baguette, but it was a bolillo. That is our savory. It was a bolillo recipe, but we presented in a baguette. So we still thought we needed to accommodate something.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us what that recipe is that you just said?
Isabel Coss:
Bolillo. Bolillo is a very hard shell, very soft crumb inside bread, savory. It's shaped like a little shoe. It's the classic shape for a torta, and it's usually eaten with tortas.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you would turn it into a baguette shape?
Isabel Coss:
You would turn it into a baguette shape.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that.
Isabel Coss:
And we had a seed bread, we had an egg yolk bread, like a brioche.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I know that at one point you did consider going to CIA, but it was too expensive, so you learned in restaurants. You're a restaurant-trained chef.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
But also, you've always had an obsession with learning things that you do not know and pushing yourself to know. That, I'm sure, played a role in the training you gave yourself by always pushing yourself?
Isabel Coss:
Definitely. Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I moved to New York City because I wanted to start in CIA, and once I was in New York, I was like, "Well, this is unaffordable." Back then I was very young. I was living alone in New York, and it seemed like an impossible task to take by myself.
Jessie Sheehan:
How old were you?
Isabel Coss:
- I didn't know anybody in New York, I didn't have any friends. So I decided to take a job in a restaurant, and I started working in Pujol. And yeah, I think that mentality of wanting to learn the things that you don't know how to comes from a little of not affording things sometimes, a little of not being able to get those products that you see.
Like, right now I'm a little obsessed in mold-making just because at a point you want to buy something and you cannot have it or afford it, and then you realize, oh, I also want to do things that don't exist right now, so how can you create that part or how can you create that shape? It's a good mental state to be in.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, you've said that your desserts are inspired by local ingredients, by nostalgic childhood flavors, by storytelling. How do all of those elements manifest? How do we see them in your dessert style?
Isabel Coss:
We were working on a dish, it's a mille-feuille. I don't know, they always say, like, "Which dish represents you?" Right now we're working on a mille-feuille. Instead of puff pastry, we replace it for planting. So theme planting chips that are cooked and then baked till crispy, and then we fill it with whipped Mexican crema, roasted plantain puree. And it's shaped like a mille-feuille, but it still looks like a plantain.
At the bottom, there's a sauce. It's mole, from Michoacan. It's my grandma's recipe. And on top of that, we top it with Golden Osetra caviar. And just to get back at it, I think that's a way to explain where my head is at. There's technique, but there's a little love, a story about me with the mole, but then there's having fun and reshaping it in a new way. And then there's caviar just because why not? Let's push it, let's push it.
I think it's a fun dish, it's a beautiful dish. There's a technique, there's a story, but also, there's the question and the story of the conversation of, what's better, is the caviar more valuable or is the mole more valuable? And everybody will have a different answer. Mine's the mole, of course. It's my grandma's mole.
Jessie Sheehan:
So before you opened Pascual, which is your newest venture, and it is beloved by seemingly all of D.C., you knew that it would have a Mexican pastry program. And you've described Mexican pastry as not only fun, but, I love this, like French pastries on steroids.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you unpack that?
Isabel Coss:
I think when you see a surrealistic painting and you're like, "Wow, what was happening here," and you see it and it's familiar and it's wild and you have to stare and look at it, walk into a panaderia in a Mexican city, traditional panaderia, and you're going to see, and you're like, "Wait, what happened here? I see it, it's familiar, I want to consume it. I feel challenged, but I also feel at home. What is this feeling?" I think that's what Mexican pastry does.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And you've also said there's a playfulness in your pastry where we get with the caviar and the plantain, or the way you're describing Mexican bakeries, that there's something playful there.
Isabel Coss:
Life's short. It should evoke joy. Push to evoke joy, because it does give me joy. So that's something I want to transmit.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I had read, and I hope this is still happening, are you still thinking about doing Volcano in-
Isabel Coss:
Volcano!
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Isabel Coss:
Volcán, the whole story of Pascual and it's changes right now, I know we're talking a lot about Mexican food, but Pascual is supposed to be a reflection of a Mexico City restaurant. And I think when you're eating in Mexico City, you see around yourself, and it's a city surrounded by volcanoes. There's Popocatépetl... Active volcanoes too.
So we thought all that energy, we wanted to compare it to a cafeteria or a panaderia. So yes, Volcán is still in the works. We wanted to open it sooner. We have just found a bigger space within the restaurant-
Jessie Sheehan:
And it will be a bakery cafe with a take-out window?
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, like a bakery cafe, a take-out window. It was going to be a take-out window. We just find that in the same space of the restaurant, we can take a little off the side. So it's actually going to become something bigger, so it's going to be better.
Right now, we were going to do it on the side of the window, and it's just, the restaurant's so busy that it doesn't give us the space to do it there anymore. So it has to grow into its own thing, and is very exciting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mexican pastries, coffees, agua fresca, horchatas.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. In the morning, there's that tradition in the morning having a coffee, having a bread, having a carajillo. In Mexico they usually have alcohol in the morning, a little spike of it. And it's good because it comes with coffee. I know here Espresso Martinez are only for dinner. No, no, no, carajillos are 24-hour-
Jessie Sheehan:
What's the alcohol in that?
Isabel Coss:
Liquor 43.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Isabel Coss:
Liquor 43.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you put that in your Espresso and your-
Isabel Coss:
Coffee and you shake it, so it's frothy and cold, and it wakes everybody else... You have a better day. And that with a roll of guava, you're set. So yeah, we want to do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, let's talk about buñuelos. So, first of all, tell us what they are, and tell us about how you serve them at Pascual.
Isabel Coss:
Buñuelo is a crunchy pastry. It's shaped like a rose. It comes from rosettes, from those Danish pastries, fried, shaped into stars or shaped into rose. In Mexico, I grew up with them. My first experience, you can buy them into a package, prepackaged from Bimbo, Bimbuñuelos Bimbo. It sounds so funny.
But yeah, that's how you get it. When you're a kid and you crunch it, you add it to your milk, or you just enjoy it as this this crispy, crunchy pastry covered in sugar. I went to Mexico to get the mold for them. I had to go to Mercado de Jamaica. That is a giant market. I brought my husband in. He's from Boston, and I don't think he's ever been or seen something like that.
It's literally, instead of a regular market, each street of the neighborhood becomes one section. So one street is just cooking stuff, the other street is just socks, the other street is just nuts. So it all changes. So we went to that, looking specifically for these molds. So we found a couple of ones.
I get one that it's, I don't know, like 20 inches. We had to compromise. I wanted to do that one for the restaurant, but it was definitely too big. So now, we're doing a little smaller, but still an extra large buñuelo. It's beautiful. It comes to the table, and it's good to sharing. I love when people share desserts.
The whole dessert, one spoon is good. I like the dessert, no spoon, you have to go in with your hand. So it's a big rosette, crispy rosette that we serve, with a side of Mexican chocolate sauce and cajeta. That is caramelized goat's milk with sugar and cinnamon.
Jessie Sheehan:
You guys dust it with cinnamon sugar before you serve it. Is that traditional, the cinnamon sugar?
Isabel Coss:
No, it's usually sugar. I like the cinnamon on it just because I love Mexican cinnamon. Mexican cinnamon is usually like Ceylon type of cinnamon. I think it's way stronger and it tastes completely different than what you're going to get in the store.
We toast it in the grill. We have a nice wood grill, so we toast it on the grill to get some smoke, and then we add it to the buñuelo. It's not traditional, but I think, for me, it has that bridge to churros. That is what you usually get into a Mexican restaurant.
Sometimes, at the beginning, you still think you need to go French for people to accept it. I feel now you can play into how can I build those bridges that if someone tries it for the first time and had never seen something like a buñuelo, instead of being intimidating, there's those points where it's like, "Oh, it reminds me of this, it reminds me of this, and now I know what it is, and I love it."
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that, in the Washington Post review, the writer said the cinnamon-dusted buñuelo is the best ending. And it does seem like just the perfect ending to an incredible meal.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
In terms of the recipe, the first thing we're going to do is, we're going to make the dough, or the batter. So we're going to whisk together... And I wonder, do you have a favorite kind of whisk or a brand of whisk?
Isabel Coss:
No, just I love thin ones.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Isabel Coss:
The thin globe whisk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to whisk some all-purpose flour. Is there a brand of flour that you like?
Isabel Coss:
I like King Arthur.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, we're going to whisk some all-purpose flour, some whole milk. Is the whole milk at room temperature at this point-
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or does it not matter? Room temperature. But we can also use barista-grade oat milk instead. So I had a couple of questions. Is barista-grade different than the kind of oat milk we buy at the grocery store?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us what barista-grade is.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, I added that oat milk just for dairy allergies. I always try to make my recipes accommodate that. Barista-grade oat milk or almond milk, they come with xanthan gum. So when they do them, sharing some xanthan gum or maybe they sharing some guar gum, they definitely have some hydrochloride in a small quantity that helps that when you do coffee, when you have that thermal shock of hot coffee, your milk won't curdle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, yes, yes, that makes sense.
Isabel Coss:
So in this recipe, it definitely helps out just because we are about to fry it at a very high temp, so you don't want your meal to curdle.
Jessie Sheehan:
So do you always have the batter with the oat milk and the batter with the whole milk available so if a customer says, "I'm..."
Isabel Coss:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
No.
Isabel Coss:
Right now we just have it with regular milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. We're whisking together the flour, the milk, or the oat milk, we're going to have some vanilla. Do you have a favorite brand of vanilla?
Isabel Coss:
Madagascar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. We're going to whisk in the vanilla, some cinnamon. Tell me about your favorite brand and your favorite flavor.
Isabel Coss:
Ooh, I like Ceylon cinnamon.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Isabel Coss:
If the cinnamon looks pretty, it's not going to taste pretty. Those perfect wood pieces, no, that doesn't taste like cinnamon.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll put in some cinnamon. Oh, and I know you have some very strong opinions about cinnamon, like supermarket cinnamon.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
No, don't get supermarket cinnamon. Go to a Mexican store or go to a Latino or an Indian store and look for some, or order from Amazon. I bet you can get some from Amazon. In your house, toast it-
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you buy it already ground or do you buy it in sticks?
Isabel Coss:
No, I buy it in sticks.
Jessie Sheehan:
You buy it in sticks, you toast the stick, and then you grind that?
Isabel Coss:
And then I grind that.
Jessie Sheehan:
How do you toast the cinnamon stick? Just in a-
Isabel Coss:
You can do it in the oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
... frying pan?
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, you can do it in the oven. You can do it in the frying pan, but you're going to get some color off it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
That is not bad. I've seen some croissants where they do burn toasted cinnamon and then they turn this black croissants, and they look insane.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you just put the cinnamon sticks-
Isabel Coss:
I just the cinnamon sticks in the oven-
Jessie Sheehan:
... on a sheet pan-
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, sheet pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and bake-
Isabel Coss:
320 for 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
Jessie Sheehan:
To almost like toasting coconut?
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, just to get those aromas out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, yum. And then you grind it.
Isabel Coss:
And then you grind. Also, because it's going to help any humidity that's on your cinnamon will evaporate. So it makes the job easier in the blender.
Jessie Sheehan:
For grinding. Oh, that's so interesting. And we're going to add some granulated sugar and some lemon zest. Tell me about why we're adding the lemon zest?
Isabel Coss:
Just for some acidity. I always like desserts have that sweet part of it, but I always like to incorporate some sour or acidity hidden in between. Also, aroma.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we'll add some eggs, which are also room temperature?
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And we'll whisk all that together, and we'll whisk until it all resembles like pancake batter. So are a few lumps okay or do you want it to be smooth?
Isabel Coss:
No, we want it to be smooth, we want it to be smooth.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then we're going to transfer that to a large container that is deep enough so that we can dip our plat-sized buñuelo mold right in.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Should we just picture almost like a huge metal bowl?
Isabel Coss:
You could picture... It depends. I think it's going to be hard to find a big buñuelo mold, but definitely, you can order rosette molds. They're going to come a little smaller. They're probably going to be like four inches. So find a container depending on your mold. You want a little bigger just so you have enough to dip. You should be able to dip it at least three quarters of the way.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, I was hoping you could describe the mold, because I think I'm starting to understand it better. It's going to be hollow on one side and closed up on the other. So it's almost like we're going to put the mold into the batter eventually, and the mold fills up with batter.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, exactly. The mold looks like, imagine those that you used to, I don't like to use this example, but you know what, you mark a cow, those type type of-
Jessie Sheehan:
Branding.
Isabel Coss:
... like a branding.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
It's like a branding mold or a stamp kind of mold that usually come in cast iron or metal. Once you dip it into the batter, it will create that shallow shape in the middle from the mold.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have this bowl that our rosette will fit into, our mold, we're going to cover our batter and let it rest for about... And do you like to call it a dough or a batter?
Isabel Coss:
I think it's a batter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, me too.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Seems batter-ish.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, it seems batter-ish.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to cover and let the batter rest for like 30 minutes. Why are we resting it?
Isabel Coss:
So you just have eggs, you have milk, flour, sugar, everything needs to disperse, needs to sit. Salt usually doesn't dissolve completely, sugar takes a little time, so resting batters with flour always help.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now, while the batter rests, we're going to heat some vegetable oil in a large pot. And so I had a couple of questions. Is there a brand or a type of vegetable oil that you like when you're frying?
Isabel Coss:
I like blended oil. I usually have some grape seed and canola, or grape seed oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to do this in a large pot. Is it just a big pot that you have, a restaurant supply kind of-
Isabel Coss:
Definitely, yeah, like a restaurant supply, a rondeau or a pot that you have at home that will fill-
Jessie Sheehan:
Kind of heavy bottom so-
Isabel Coss:
A heavy bottom because you're frying oil, and oil is dangerous.
Jessie Sheehan:
We want to heat the oil to 320 degrees. Is that a little bit low? I feel, usually-
Isabel Coss:
That's a little bit low, but it's going to take some time. Usually you go 320, 350-
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
... when you're trying to fry. It's going to take some time to sit, so you don't want to go that hot on your mold.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you want to start at 320, probably because it's in the restaurant. Are you able to keep that temperature at 320? I feel, like, at home when you're frying, it-
Isabel Coss:
Yes, you can definitely take it up a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
If you put something that you're frying and it doesn't start creating a sizzle, your oil is too cold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good to know.
Isabel Coss:
Bring it up.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to warm the mold in the hot oil for one minute before we place it into the batter?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
How come we do that?
Isabel Coss:
If we put the mold cold, none of the batter is going to attach to it. So we need it to be a little hot so it starts cooking. While you put it in the mixture, it's already cooking the mixture, so the mixture is attaching to the mold.
Jessie Sheehan:
This is a question, because I'm trying to visualize it. So the mold, when we place it into the bowl, the bottom of the mold is the solid part, and the top is the part that's open, yes?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we dip it in and pull it up, and then the mold has been filled with the batter?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay.
Isabel Coss:
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once we stick our rosette mold in, it fills with batter. Then we return the mold to the oil. And is the idea that we place the mold underneath the oil a little bit so that the buñuelo pops out?
Isabel Coss:
No. You have to keep it on the... You hold it. All these rosette molds come with a nice hold. They're usually a wood base or a nice plastic base at the end so you don't burn yourself. You're going to have to hold onto it, onto the oil, to let it sit for a minute-
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
... before you can remove the mold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Isabel Coss:
The batter should come out really good. The mold is just helping to set the shape of it-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Isabel Coss:
... and then you'll be able to pull it off and the shape will stay in the oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you set it on top of the oil, and you'll probably, visually, you can tell when it's getting set. And then does it almost start to rise out of the mold itself?
Isabel Coss:
A little bit. That's why you want to fill it, when you dip your mold, you want to dip it at just three quarters because it's going to grow a little, so it's going to keep setting into the shape.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Isabel Coss:
If you go above it, then taking it off is going to be-
Jessie Sheehan:
I see.
Isabel Coss:
... weird to take it out of the mold. But if you just dip three quarters of the batter, put it in the fried oil, you'll see it raise, and you won't have trouble removing the mold from the shape.
Jessie Sheehan:
From the oil. I get it. So we're only filling our mold about three quarters of the way full, we place it on top of the oil, we'll see the batter rise up and fill the mold. And then, when we do a gesture like we almost press down on the mold a little, and it pops out.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. I love it, I love it, I love it. So, we're going to cook our buñuelo until they're light brown. Can you tell us how long that is, and do you flip them or-
Isabel Coss:
I think it depends on your oil by then. Sometimes it goes faster, sometimes the stoves keep better heat, or the pot keeps better heat. But definitely, you want it to be crunchy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
So you're going to take it to a light golden or medium golden. You can flip it if you haven't been able to get stuck. So you will remove your metal mold, and you could, with a spatula, flip it to get some cooking oil inside of the shape-
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
... because it's going to be shallow in the middle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, because when you place it in the oil, the solid part of the tart shell or the rosette-
Isabel Coss:
Exactly, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... is on the top-
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and underneath is the hollow part?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Got it. Do you have any tips for home bakers about trying to keep oil at temperature? I feel once you put in a doughnut or a fritter or a buñuelo, the temperature drops.
Isabel Coss:
I think a good cast iron pot always helps.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, okay.
Isabel Coss:
There's definitely pots that... I like Made In. I feel their pots hold temperature very well. Start a little higher, use a thermometer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
I think first times when you're frying with oil, it's good to keep a thermometer on the oil just so you know what's happening. It is good to just visually know, instead of guessing, it is good to see what is happening inside your pot.
Jessie Sheehan:
And when you make these at the restaurant, you're making large ones. Are you're doing one at a time?
Isabel Coss:
We do one at a time.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you fry them off to order?
Isabel Coss:
No, we fry them ahead of time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
So it's a pastry that you can prep ahead of time. You don't have to be frying-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's so nice.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. No, I usually make them, even for a party, I will definitely do them before the party, early in the day, and they will hold all day. They even will hold till the next day.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's probably so important when you're planning a menu at a restaurant.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. And everyone wants to have-
Jessie Sheehan:
You can't attest to everything .
Isabel Coss:
Yes. No, no. It's tiring carrying fried oil at the moment. Also, we fry it on an oil that is separated from savory food to avoid cross-contamination, so we do it ahead of time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So now you're going to use a spider or a slotted spoon to remove the buñuelo from the oil. Can you just tell people what a spider is and where we could get one?
Isabel Coss:
Yes. I actually don't know. And that's the name I know from restaurants, it's a spider. It's a big spoon or a big utensil that has a lot of little holes, and it helps you take the white of a broth. When you're making a broth, a spider will help you remove things from water or hot water.
Jessie Sheehan:
And great to scoop up your buñuelo because all the oil-
Isabel Coss:
Right, to scoop it because all the oil will stay down.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's almost like a sieve.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's like a strainer.
Isabel Coss:
Like a strainer with a handle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
A strainer with a handle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And now we'll let our buñuelo cool on a tray lined with paper towels-
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... till they're room temperature-
Isabel Coss:
Just to absorb any extra oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and we can... Now we're going to combine the granulated sugar and the cinnamon. I assume we whisk it together?
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, just whisk together, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you use the same Ceylon cinnamon that you used-
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... in the batter? Well, we have a big shallow dish, and then we'll toss the buñuelo in the cinnamon sugar.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. Toss it in, make sure the sugar covers all the sides.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you just use your hands, or is there a technique for doing it?
Isabel Coss:
No. Just your hands. Make it sure it-
Jessie Sheehan:
And are they fragile? Are you afraid they're going to break?
Isabel Coss:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Isabel Coss:
No, no, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great.
Isabel Coss:
They're sturdy.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wondered if they're room temperature when you toss them in the cinnamon and sugar, I would think that if they were warm it would stick better.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, because you just still have some humidity from the oil and the heat, but you can do it after.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you're doing service, are the buñuelo already tossed in cinnamon sugar-
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... or do you do... Ah, they're already tossed.
Isabel Coss:
Yeah, we pre-toss with cinnamon sugar, and we keep them warm, so when you get it's a little, like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, yummy. I know you serve it with both the chocolate sauce and cajeta. So to make the chocolate sauce, we're going to basically make a water ganache.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to make a tea of water and brown sugar. Is it light or dark brown sugar?
Isabel Coss:
Any can work.
Jessie Sheehan:
Either one?
Isabel Coss:
I like piloncillos, so dark brown.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to make this tea of water, dark brown sugar, cinnamon, star anise. What's the flavor that the star anise will contribute?
Isabel Coss:
For me, a star anise gives that holiday aroma-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Isabel Coss:
... to it that I think is really good.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to place all those ingredients on the stove top in a pot and bring to a boil, or just a simmer, a boil?
Isabel Coss:
Just a simmer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Then we'll strain and pour that over the dark chocolate. Do you have a brand of chocolate that you like or a percentage?
Isabel Coss:
I like Valrhona chocolate, I like Mexican chocolate. Usually we get some from, it's called Mayordomo in Oaxaca. We always buy some plaques from there. They grind it to whatever you want. If you're ever there, you can go to the chocolate store and you're like, "Yeah, give me almonds, or don't put almonds, but give me sugar and throw me some cinnamon on it," and they'll grind fresh coconuts for you. So when I'm over there in town, I usually buy a lot amount with the ratios I like of sugar and cocoa.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it that this is a water-based ganache. I assume you do that because it's a much stronger flavor than if you add cream? All of the cinnamon and the star anise, all those flavors, and even the chocolate will really pop.
Isabel Coss:
Definitely. You want the chocolate to pop, you don't want the water to... Water just works as a heat transfer and to melt it. But yes, you don't want the milk to take away-
Jessie Sheehan:
But you could infuse cream if you wanted to-
Isabel Coss:
Definitely, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and just make it like a flavor-
Isabel Coss:
It will create a richer sauce.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, do you serve the chocolate sauces room temperature or warm?
Isabel Coss:
Warm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
A little warm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, tell us about making the cajeta.
Isabel Coss:
Oh, yes. So, you think dulce de leche, cajeta is the equivalent of dulce de leche. It's goat's milk that gets added sugar. And the natural sugars of the milk, with time and heat, will reduce to create a caramel, and it's delicious. That's where we're getting the fatty from. So in this dish, you're serving that milk texture, it's coming from your cajeta. So, the chocolate, you go with water.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted you to just tell us about a couple of other recipes. Can you tell us about your arroz con leche?
Isabel Coss:
Oh, yes, arroz con leche. I usually make it with coconut milk. For me, arroz con leche has to cook first with water, enough water, and then you add the same amount of water to milk and let it just absorb it.
For me, the milk, I never heat it up. So I just cook it on the water, then I add the milk, shut it off. And for arroz con leche, I always like to add orange or mandarin cinnamon too. I can't help it. I can't help cinnamon on Mexican desserts, I'm sorry, but not sorry.
Jessie Sheehan:
And burnt vanilla, I read?
Isabel Coss:
Burnt vanilla, yes. So all the vanilla beans, usually open, scrape the bean out of the vanilla bean, we save them, we toast them until they're hard and burned-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
... and then we grind them.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh, so you grind the outside of the bean too?
Isabel Coss:
Yes. That's what we use for them, we use the outside of the bean.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh.
Isabel Coss:
So we're not wasting any, and the flavor is incredible.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you scrape out the middle, and then you toast the outside.
Isabel Coss:
Yes. Because usually, the middle, you use it for other recipes-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a a custard or-
Isabel Coss:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... pudding.
Isabel Coss:
Or ice cream-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
... whatever you've been using in the restaurant, we always have the beans left at the end.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, and then you toast it.
Isabel Coss:
Sometimes you can put them in alcohol to create your own extract, but we save the beans, toast them until they're toasty and burnt, and they have a good aroma.
Jessie Sheehan:
What you grind up, could you use that in anything?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that sounds...
Isabel Coss:
It's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you say burnt vanilla, it sounds so sexy and yummy.
Isabel Coss:
Burnt vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, finally, just your Mexican chocolate cake, because I love chocolate cake so much.
Isabel Coss:
Oh, yes. Desserts have changed a little, so I'm going back at them, but I love this chocolate cake. I don't know, for me, I think it's very hard for me to create, if I have to admit, it's hard for me to create chocolate desserts, because I love chocolate, but I never crave chocolate.
I crave mangoes, I crave limes, I crave other stuff. But you need to have a chocolate dessert in every restaurant. So when I do something with chocolate, I'm like, "It's gonna be chocolate." I never a little bit of chocolate, I go 100%, 120. I'm like, "How can I put more chocolate?"
Because I know there's the guests that love the chocolate experience, and they're going to appreciate that they're getting their chocolate tank fulfilled. So, it's a dark chocolate. We add some Mexican chocolate too. And we do a 50-50 of a dark, a 64% Jivara, Araguani. Those are two types of brands from the, or categories from Valrhona brand. I like those two.
And then we melt that chocolate, we fold in eggs, sugar, and butter, and we bake it on a water bath, like a flan, and then we have to let it sit. And that we serve with a crème anglaise anglaise and hoja santa oil. Hoja santa, it's a beautiful leaf from Oaxaca.
Jessie Sheehan:
Kind of tastes like root beer or anise?
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
It tastes like anise root beer, like a little licorice. I love licorice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Isabel Coss:
So it tastes like licorice and anise.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which goes so well with chocolate-
Isabel Coss:
It goes well with chocolate, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and crème anglaise.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, yes, yes. So just a burnt vanilla crema anglaise, and the hoja santa for some brightness. Fat on fat, I like it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, please. Fat on fat, and then, fried.
Isabel Coss:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because fried is basically my favorite flavor.
Isabel Coss:
Yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Isabel. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Isabel Coss:
Ah, you're my cherry pie. Cereza.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw.
Isabel Coss:
Mi pie cereza. Thank you much. Thank you for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, thank you.
That's it for today's show. Thank you to California Prunes for supporting this episode. Follow She's My Cherry Pie on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com, plus tickets and more information about my book tour, which kicks off on September 24th in Manhattan. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network, and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our Producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vogt. Our Associate Producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our Content and Partnerships Manager is London Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.