She’s My Cherry Pie: Zoë François Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, a baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, Snackable Bakes. Each Saturday, I'm hanging with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today, I'm talking all things pavlovas with author and baker Zoë François. She's the talent behind the gorgeous Zoë Bakes Instagram account and the Zoë Bakes Cakes cookbook. She also has a show on the Magnolia Network. And I hope you all caught my guest appearance on the Minneapolis State Fair episode. Zoë and I ate our way across the fair and had the best time. Clearly, Zoë bakes lots of things, but she's become known for her gorgeous tutu-shaped pavlovas, which were a nod to the origins of the dessert. Zoë's going to walk us through how to make this meringue-based confection, so get ready for her best tips and tricks so you can make a pavlova at home. Stay tuned for Zoë.
Today's show is presented by Le Creuset and California Prunes. A big thank you to everyone who has left ratings and reviews for our podcast. I'm practically in tears reading them. ShoeGal606, that's a great idea about a chocolate chip cookie episode. And HannahBK20, thank you for the kind words. If you've become a regular listener, I'd love to know what you think and any bakers or baked goods you'd love featured on the show.
Here's a word about Le Creuset. For nearly a century, Le Creuset has been creating joy in the kitchen and beyond, as the first in colorful cookware, the finest in quality and design, and the favorite of generations of cooks and bakers. Here on She's My Cherry Pie, there's a reason I always ask our guests about the tools and equipment they rely on. You can have the best ingredients around and be one of the world's top culinary talents, but you also need cookware and bakeware you can depend on. Professionally, I've relied on Le Creuset for years when I'm developing recipes, testing new treats for my cookbooks, or making something precise, like caramel. And personally, I use my Le Creuset pieces all the time when cooking for myself or my family. If you need a special gift for any upcoming college graduations or weddings, you can't go wrong with a classic Le Creuset Dutch Oven, which you can use for almost everything. You can make individual molten chocolate cakes or berry crumbles in them, or even use them for your mise en place. Head over to lecreuset.com to browse their gorgeous colors, find other gift ideas, and snag some recipes.
Let's chat with today's guest. Zoë, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk pavlovas and so much more with you.
Zoë François:
I am so excited to be here. Nothing I love more than chatting cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you and I met when I sent you a copy of my second book, The Vintage Baker, way back in 2018, and you made a cake from it. I think around then, I think it was around when you were turning 50, you felt like there was a shift professionally around that time.
Zoë François:
It was huge.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I wanted to know if you could tell us a little bit about what was before the shift and then a little bit about what happened with the shift.
Zoë François:
So, before the shift, my focus was on parenting, really. I was writing books. I had the bread book series.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell people about that, just in case they don't know?
Zoë François:
Yeah. In 2005, I wrote a book with a friend of mine called Artisan Bread In Five Minutes A Day, and we passed it in. And I thought, this is an amazing experience to have, while I'm staying home, raising my kids. And I had left the restaurant industry. And so, this was just a great endeavor to use up my time, but I didn't think it was going to go anywhere.
Jessie Sheehan:
One million books later.
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, basically, I got on a freight train that I didn't realize was going to speed down my life. And so, it took over, and it was perfect. It was absolutely perfect because I was raising my two boys. When I turned 50, my eldest turned 18, my youngest was 16, and I really decided it was my turn. I wanted to dive into pastry, which was my love. I love bread, but I think I had said everything I needed to say about five-minute bread. That was really the shift, is that I felt psychically that I had the time to dive into my own passions and spend the time on myself, not only for myself, but also for my boys. I wanted them to see me doing something that I really loved, instead of keeping them alive.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll get back to baking in a sec, but as a mom, it feels so good to be showing your children that there are things in life you can find and love and be passionate about.
Zoë François:
Now that I look back on it, it's one of, maybe, my best parenting decisions, was to show them, not only that their mom is about something for herself and more than just for them, taking care of them, but also what it looks like to be really passionate about work.
Jessie Sheehan:
I couldn't agree with you more. I feel like, when the shift started to happen, there was also maybe an embracing of Instagram that shifted things. I think what's wonderful about your story, we all have maybe ambivalent, not always happy, good feelings about Instagram, but you're a great example of how I think, well, it helped you in two huge ways, books and television. But tell us about the shift that led... because you were already on Instagram at that point.
Zoë François:
I was on it. The shift happened because I wanted to do my own book. In the publishing world, marketing reigns supreme. You can have the best concept in the world, but if you don't have a means to sell that concept, publishers can't risk it with you. And even though I had sold nearly a million copies of my bread book, I was going out on my own because I had a co-author for those books. I was going out on my own. This was a brand-new brand for me. And so, it was a little bit risky for them, even though I was a known bookseller.
I had to build up my own brand, the Zoë Bakes brand, as opposed to the bread. That's why I really dove into Instagram. But the shift in doing Instagram and being there, the shift into gaining followers, was when I shifted from just taking pictures of what I was making to doing tutorials. I realized that I would post these pretty pictures of things that I was baking and people would like them, but they weren't baking them. As a recipe developer, if people aren't baking what you are putting out into the world, what are we really doing it for? I realized that, maybe, the things that I was baking were a little bit aspirational for home cooks, and so I figured if I just show people step by step that nothing I'm doing is that difficult at all and it's so much fun, and once I started doing the videos, people started baking and posting about it and getting super excited and I was getting super excited. I fell in love with it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also think there's, maybe, a little piece of the IG story that I just wanted you to tap into, because I think it's interesting. I feel like, at first, maybe pre-pandemic, it was more of a hands and pans kind of teaching. And then, when the pandemic hit, you wanted a connection with your audience and you turned the camera.
Zoë François:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is that accurate?
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, the first videos that I was doing, like you said, my husband had jerry-rigged my camera, so that it could point straight down on the counter. First, I was doing it with one hand and trying to bake with one hand, which was a nightmare. He was an engineering major and figured out this jerry-rigged camera. So, I had just my hands and music and I would make the recipe.
And it was great, because it was very simple. It was very quiet. I didn't talk. I just made the recipe. And it was really effective. During the pandemic, I wanted the community. And so, I started doing Instagram lives, so that it was more of a connection. The hands thing was not so much about me connecting with anyone, it was purely showing the recipe. And I needed it. I was craving that interaction. And so, I turned the camera around. It terrified me at first, but I was doing it with my sons. They were manning the camera. And we ended up having such a blast. I loved it. I loved interacting with people. I loved the questions. I loved them. My boys were involved. The whole thing was just such a joy.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it fair to say that doing those with your sons was part of what led to a TV show?
Zoë François:
Yes, absolutely it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us a little bit about the show.
Zoë François:
Well, I was actually working on a different show before this. A production company had pitched to me a show that was more like a talk show and people would call in and tell me their recipes, and I would help them through them. And then, another separate production company called me and told me about the Magnolia Network, that this was a budding thing and it was about to become its own network. I had seen Chip and Joanna's shows, and I really appreciated their no-nonsense. It wasn't about tap dancing and entertainment. It was really about their craft. And they were very serious craftspeople, but fun and making it accessible to people. I feel like that's my style.
This other show we were working on was a little bit more… I was going to have to be a character. I was going to try it, but it just didn't feel in my soul. It didn't feel like me. I wanted to tell the stories of other bakers, because I get inspired by going to restaurants, being with bakers, going to the grocery store and seeing what's beautiful on the shelves. I wanted to tell the story of all of the incredible bakers and makers and producers that are in my hometown in Minneapolis and greater Minnesota and then come home show people how to do it, because I didn't just want to show where I was showcasing other people. I wanted to empower people to actually bake the things that I'm making. So, it was very important for me that the show be both inspirational but also educational.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, your first solo book, Zoë Bakes Cakes, I was particularly smitten with the Cake Academy, which is the first part of Zoë's book. And I wondered if you would just tell us a little bit about it, because I think it speaks to everything we've been talking about.
Zoë François:
Yeah, exactly. It's very similar to the philosophy that I had about the show, is that I want somebody to come into the book and be able to make a recipe. The recipes stand on their own and you can go start to finish in a recipe and be done with it. But there's a lot of people out there that want to know why these things are working or how they're working.
Jessie Sheehan:
In every recipe, there'll be a Cake Academy section and people can refer back to those sections if they're a little confused. She wants stiff peaks and she's explaining it, but why do I need them?
Zoë François:
Yes, that's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you go to the Zoë's Cake Academy and you know why.
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I also love that at the end of the Cake Academy chapter, you're like, “Look. If this is TMI [too much information], you can just ignore it.”
Zoë François:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Also, Zoë's writing is great.
Zoë François:
Yeah. Some people are going to want to dive into that and are going to be fascinated by it, and some people are going to be bored and intimidated. And I don't want that. People want it. It's there. And people will dip in and out of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Let's take a quick break and we'll be back.
Thank you to California Prunes for sponsoring this episode of She's My Cherry Pie. It's a funny coincidence that California Prunes is our sponsor, because I love prunes. Last year, my doctor told me I should eat six a day for healthy bones. And I've been hooked ever since. Prunes are also good for your heart and your gut, and they're loaded with nutrients like vitamin K, dietary fiber, potassium, and antioxidants. And moreover, they're delicious. They're 100% my go-to smart snack.
Snacking aside, I didn't realize how versatile California Prunes are for cooking and baking. But it makes perfect sense, they're sweet but complex with a rich, jammy flavor that compliments so many ingredients from chocolate to cheese. You can use chopped California Prunes in baked goods like muffins and scones, the same way you would any other dried fruit. California Prunes are a lush and healthy addition to any of these treats. You can also make prune purée, which is prunes and water blended together and swap that into certain recipes in place of eggs or oil, or to reduce the amount of sugar. For more on prune purée and great recipes that include prunes, head over to californiaprunes.org.
Now, back to our guest. So, now I would love to talk about pavlovas with you. And I know it's one of the most, if not the most popular recipe on your website, Zoë Bakes.
Zoë François:
It is.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I wondered first if you could tell people what a pavlova is, in case somebody doesn't know.
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, a pavlova is essentially a meringue that is fortified with a little bit of vinegar to strengthen it and a little bit of cornstarch to make it more cakey. So, it's a meringue, but it's also a cake. Typically, it's just spread out willy-nilly on a baking sheet baked so that it's crisp on the outside, but a little bit cakey on the inside, piled up with whipped cream, and you can put anything you want on it. So, that's a pavlova.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, talk to us about the shape.
Zoë François:
So, pavlova is one of those homely, but absolutely stunningly delicious desserts. But it's not much to look at and Instagram is such a visual medium. Pavlova itself is named after Anna Pavlova, who is a ballerina. I figured I made this thing. It wasn't gorgeous. I didn't think it was going to wow anybody to look at it. And so, I figured Anna Pavlova, ballerina, I'll make a pavlova that looks like a tutu. So, I piled the meringue onto the baking tray, and I swept it up into a cylinder. And then, I made sweeping motions with a metal spatula, so that it was fluted like a tutu. And then, when it baked, it bailed like out a dress. I shocked myself because I'd never seen it. I didn't think it was going to work.
What happens is because it's so tall, the inside of the pavlova collapses, so you're left with this meringue crispy shell and then this soft cake on the inside. I piped the whipped cream, I think also lemon curd, and put berries, raspberries, and passion fruit. I was stunned by it, and Instagram was stunned by it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Pavlova is unique to other meringues in this incredible texture, right?
Zoë François:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
The crispiness on the outside. You're describing it as cakey. And since I love marshmallows, of course, I remember this. I've also heard it described almost as marshmallowy in the middle. And it's so interesting to me. And again, we'll get into some of these ingredients, of course, but I love that it's like the vinegar and the corn starch that is going to give you... I think often with recipes, I've made a lot of pavlovas, I knew it was meringue, but I wasn't aware of what was in this meringue that was separating it from others.
Zoë François:
One of the things that I added to the pavlova, which is not intuitive when you're thinking about a meringue because you want the stability of the egg whites. The egg whites are the protein in the egg. And so, they're actually very strong. And when you whip them, you can whip air into that protein and get this ethereal, beautiful, glossy, gorgeous meringue. I'm obsessed with meringues.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's dive into this recipe. So, first things first, it's a low oven. It's 275 degrees. You're going to put that rack in the bottom third of your oven. Take your parchment. You're going to draw a six-inch circle. Does it expand?
Zoë François:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, it's not going to be six inches?
Zoë François:
No. If you do a six-inch circle, it's going to be eight, about eight Inches.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good to know. And then, you flip the paper, which I know why. But can you tell people why you flip the paper?
Zoë François:
Because typically I'm using a pencil or Sharpie, and I don't want that to be part of the recipe. So, by flipping over the paper, you can still see that mark, but you're not going to be ingesting ink.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. Probably, the most important ingredient in a pavlova are your egg whites. And I know you've said that you want them to be room temperature. You've even said maybe warm, the whites to be warm. Or room temp is okay?
Zoë François:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
We don't have to worry too much about making them anything more than room temp.
Zoë François:
No, room temp warm. Either way, it's going to expand the proteins more. They're going to take on more air that way than if they're cold. It's such an interesting recipe because there's so many things that seem to contradict each other. A fresh egg is stronger, the proteins are stronger, so it can take on more air. The older the egg, the weaker it gets. You'll notice, when you break into a fresh egg, that the egg white is very viscous. If you're breaking into an aged egg white, it's runny. It feels really watery. It doesn't have as much strength. How do you know if your eggs are really fresh or not? There's a date on most store-bought eggs, or you walk across the street and you get your best friend's chickens' eggs.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you're Zoë.
Zoë François:
That's the best way to know. But yeah, stores will have it. Typically, anything you buy at the store is going to be pretty fresh. The fresher the egg, the better. Also, we're going to be adding water. So, we want the really intense, beautiful, strong protein to begin with.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like you can tell when you separate a fresh egg because it's so tight and bouncy that it's almost hard to pull it apart from the yolk. Whereas, an older egg, you'll find that you can separate them at least with your hands very easily. That's a good thing to know because you'll see in Zoë's recipe, as we keep talking about it, once you know if you have old or young eggs, it may affect how you're going to use some of these ingredients. But I loved that, and I loved you have two different techniques for cracking eggs. There's one where you're cracking it, so the crack is facing up towards the ceiling. There's another one where you're putting everything into a bowl and fishing out yolks. Can you tell us about both? Because I think the second is what you do in a professional kitchen.
Zoë François:
Yeah. The first one is I think what most people do. You crack the egg. Like you said, you have basically two cups facing up and you rock them back and forth to get the yolk separated from the white. The second one that you're referring to is something that we would do in a professional kitchen, because we're cracking 150 eggs at a time. So, we just crack all the eggs and then go in with our hands and pluck out the yolks. Super easy, the yolks are much sturdier than you would think. If I have to do a ton of eggs, that's how I will do it. I've seen people use water bottles to suck them up. I get my hands in everything. I feel like part of pastry is the feeling of the dough, the touching of the meringue, understanding how these things feel, not just look, but what they feel like. And so, for me, getting my hands in there is very important.
Jessie Sheehan:
And if you forget to warm your eggs, okay to just put them with the shell in the little bowl of warm water.
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, what I would do is whole egg in shell, run it under hot water. It takes maybe four or five minutes, and you have a room-temperature egg. Super easy and worth doing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. Are you okay with people measuring out the five whites that this recipe calls for? Or, do you, in the end, would you always want people to use a scale?
Zoë François:
It's 150 grams. And I've done this a billion times. I always bake by weights, by grams. It's easier for me. It's easier for everybody. They just don't know it yet because they're not used to it. It's more consistent. 150 grams is always 150 grams, but five egg whites can be, oh, so many different numbers because you open up a carton of eggs and they're all different sizes. Jen's eggs across the street are enormous. You would think she was raising ostrich over there. Baking by weights is really a game-changer. And I highly recommend it. And I feel like it's moving that way. I feel like most books at this point give you the options.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I agree. So, we're going to put our egg whites into the bowl of a stand mixer. I know you have maybe several stand mixers at home. Do you have a favorite brand that you would share with people?
Zoë François:
Well, so I do have several. I have different mixers for different purposes. I've had a KitchenAid five-quart stand mixer since I was in college. I started a cookie company in college. And this was the first thing I ever invested in. 35 years later, I still have it. It's a workhorse and I adore it. And then, I have a Wolf mixer that is seven quarts. So, it's enormous. When I'm doing a big batch of anything, including pavlova, all of them work really well.
The interesting thing about the different brands is the shape of the whisk attachment. Just like you have different-shaped whisks, there's egg whisks, there's balloon whisks, they have different shaped whisks, too. It's not that the outcome of the meringue is necessarily different, but the timing is really different. I wanted to give visual cues instead of numbers, because new bakers tend to go by whatever's written on the page. So, if I say three minutes later you're going to have this meringue, they're going to go for three minutes, but it really depends on the shape of your whisk. I know this is getting really into the weeds.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, that's the podcast. We call it She's My Cherry Weeds.
Zoë François:
It's so fascinating to me that something like that is really going to have an impact. So, it's like the shape of your whisk, the size and shape of your oven, it all plays into it. And so, you have to be a little bit flexible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I agree. I think I probably know the answer. I'm assuming, if you don't have a stand mixer, you can use a hand mixer. But again, it's going to take much longer or maybe not even.
Zoë François:
So, yes, you can, but... And there is a but. You have to have one with a lot of guts to it. There are some where I find you just don't have the power to really aerate certain things. The other thing is you cannot make meringue in a plastic bowl. It has to be glass or stainless steel. Meringue, whipped cream, just about anything, I would just avoid plastic bowls for mixing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Next ingredient. We've got our egg whites in our bowl, and our metal bowl or our glass bowl from our stand mixer. We're going to add our kosher salt. I'm just wondering, are you always a kosher salt person? Do you sometimes do fine sea salt?
Zoë François:
I've been playing around with it more. There isn't really a right and wrong salt to use, but in terms of kosher salt, there's Morton's, there's Diamond's. Those two are not equal in terms of how salty your recipe will be. The one type of salt I would say stay away from is something super coarse or a flaky sea salt. On the top, it's awesome. But in the recipe, it's not going to dissolve quickly enough. And so, I would say kosher salt. Table salt you can do, but you have to reduce the amount.
Jessie Sheehan:
Next ingredient is cream of tartar, and this is back to our old versus fresh eggs because it can be optional, because you said that if it's an older egg, you really need it to help with structure because the proteins aren't as strong. But with a fresher egg, you might be able to leave it out.
Zoë François:
Yeah. I say leave it out just because it's not in everybody's pantry. I don't say leave it out. I say you can leave it out. I would put it in, because it's just one more level of insurance that you're going to get a really nice strong protein. Cream of tartar is an acid, and it's an acid derived from the process of making wine, which I find so fascinating. But it's an acid, and when you add an acid to the egg whites, it strengthens them. It strengthens the proteins. And so, you get a stronger meringue at the end.
So, I would say, if you have it in your pantry, use it. It's just going to be one more level. We're going to add another ingredient deeper in that's also going to have this effect on it, but it's not one of those it's absolutely not going to work if you don't use it, which is why I say it's optional. And especially, if your eggs are fresh, then you're going to be fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
That makes sense.
Zoë François:
We didn't talk about the cleanliness of your bowl. Because you are trying to structure the proteins in the egg whites so that they'll take on the air, if you have any fat near these egg whites, it's going to inhibit that from happening, because the fat plays with the protein and it inhibits them from connecting with each other and taking on air. Your bowl has to be perfectly clean. And some people even wipe the bowl clean with vinegar and then rinse it out, to make sure. So, that's one thing, to just make sure that you don't have any fat in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm not sure if this is a pavlova thing or maybe I live under a rock, I'm not sure. But I feel like, often, instructions when you're whipping egg whites is to whip till foamy and then start adding sugar. And I know there's a water element that we're going to talk about, so that might have something to do with it. But I thought it was interesting that, in your recipe, you start with that cream of tartar, that salt and your eggs and your egg whites, and you bring it to medium high. You're on medium high till medium peaks.
Zoë François:
Mm-hmm. And then, add the sugar. Really, the technique is that you want to establish that foam. You want to make sure that your egg whites are going to take on some foam. The other thing is that, if you dump all the sugar in there, the proteins are not going to be able to align themselves with each other as well and as strongly if they have the crystals of the sugar breaking them apart. And so, by establishing the foam, you've already got those proteins working together in the harmony. And then, the reason that you don't just dump sugar on top of them is so that you're not deflating all of that beautiful air that you're trying to incorporate into the recipe. By sprinkling the sugar on, you're allowing those proteins to stay aligned.
Jessie Sheehan:
We brought our egg whites on medium high, two medium peaks. Our kosher salt's there, cream of tartar. Now, we have this fabulous Zoë ingredient, the cold water. We're going to drop our mixer speed to medium low, drizzle in the cold water. Can you remind us why it's so fascinating and cool and different?
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, you have this strong protein structure, but in order to get the texture that I really wanted on this pavlova, I wanted it to be lighter on the inside. I didn't want it to have this dense layer in there. And so, by adding the water, you are expanding the egg whites even more. You're thinning them out a little bit. That's why you want to make sure that you have the strength in there so that they can take it. If I was adding water to the older egg whites that are already a little bit watery and not using the cream of tartar, which made them strong, it may spread out more.
Jessie Sheehan:
Understood. I love that. Next, we're going to start sprinkling in superfine sugar a little bit at a time. Can you tell us about superfine, and tell us how we make it? I love the sugar smoke.
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, superfine sugar in this recipe is very important, because we're adding it to our already established meringue. Like you said, we've gotten this thing to medium peaks and beyond. We're sprinkling in the superfine sugar. And the goal of this is that that sugar's going to melt into it and become this just beautiful glossy meringue. If you use crystal sugar, and not all products are equal in terms of the size of those crystals, some of them are quite large and they won't have time to dissolve and become married into the recipe, and it will actually leave pockmarks on the outer shell of your pavlova, because they haven't melted while they're whipping. And so, they melt in the oven, and you can see them.
And so, some people say, “Why isn't my thing perfectly smooth?” And it's that. It's because the sugar didn't have enough time, and it wasn't fine enough. Superfine sugar or castor sugar, it's called in the U.K. baker’s sugar. I think you can find it on the shelf as baker’s sugar. It is just granulated sugar that's been ground down so that the crystals are very fine. And like you said, you can make it. I just put it into my food processor. It just died. I had a food processor that I also bought in college that was ancient, but it did the job. I'd throw just granulated sugar into the food processor and let it go. And you'll see it. You'll see the crystals getting smaller. And it will start to produce a white smoke that comes out. And that's typically when I know it's done. So, you can make your own. You want to make sure that you go pretty far in getting it nice and fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think you said about five minutes, because it's true. I've seen that dust come out and be like, what's on fire? And you said it's a sugar dust. And this is the period that we talked about earlier about the incorporation of the melting of the sugar in the egg white. It's happening now. It's not like it's something that happens later in the oven. That's why we go for, I think, about five.
Zoë François:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, speed goes to high and you're going to beat until these stiff glossy peaks fall.
Zoë François:
Yeah, because you're going to get there sooner. Part of the process is not just getting to the volume that you want, but it's also making sure that sugar is behaving itself and that it's dissolving into the egg white mixture that you've got going.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. And then, I love this, we actually take our bowl off of our stand mixer and we're going to add our last three ingredients, which are cornstarch, vanilla, and vinegar. You either like to use the whisk from your machine to be do the folding as it were. If you're not using that, you're using a spatula. Do you have a favorite brand or a favorite kind that you like to work with?
Zoë François:
I have so many rubber spatulas. I think that rubber spatulas and scraping the bowl is probably the thing I talk about maybe most. It's one of the most essential parts of baking, is scraping down the bowl. In a meringue, it's easy to get in there. Everything is uniform until we start adding these other ingredients. But in something like a cake batter or cookie dough, so many things get stuck at the bottom of the bowl and you really need to get down there in there.
I don't know if I have a favorite brand, but the favorite type is a rubber spatula that has some body to it. I don't want these flippy, floppy, flimsy, soft ones. I want something that's really going to hug the bowl when I'm going through it and have enough body to lift up whatever it is. So, something that's sturdy and 100% dishwasher approved, because I do not want to wash a rubber spatula by hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
We mentioned this before, but just this cornstarch now is helping to create this slightly softer meringue. And I think you said it makes it even a tiny bit easier when it comes time to cut it, as opposed to a meringue that shatters the minute you touch it with a knife.
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, it gives it a tender quality. So, what it's doing is it's adding some starch to it, which gives it that cakey quality, but it's also absorbing some of the water, because we've added so much water to it. The cornstarch is helping to counter that a little bit. And that's why I was saying, in this recipe, it seems like things are contradicting each other. Why do you do that if then you have to do this? They all play together to get the result that you want. And you can try. This is the fun part about recipes, at least for me, is try it without the cornstarch or try it without the water. And then, you'll see the differences and how I got to the texture and flavor and pavlova that I wanted. But everybody's different. And this is the fun part. And that's why I say this might be your first pavlova, but hopefully it's not your last and this'll be a journey that you'll take with it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Next, we're going to add some vanilla. And I just wanted to know if there's a favorite brand that you wanted to share with us.
Zoë François:
Well, yeah, it's the one I make. I'm a homemade vanilla person. I know not all people are. And they have their special brands. But I make my own super simple, partly because I always have vanilla beans that I'm using instead of discarding them because they're so crazy expensive. I just push them down into my bottle of homemade vanilla. I've had one since 2012. And I just keep adding vodka and vanilla beans. And that is all vanilla extract is, essentially. It's super easy, but you do have to let it mature.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us, A, ratio and, B, length of time?
Zoë François:
Yeah. So, let's say you have, what, a pint or 750 milliliters. Maybe, start out with 12 really healthy vanilla beans that you've split and scraped the seeds and put into the bottle, and then you fill that up with vodka. Doesn't matter what kind, doesn't have to be expensive. Some people do like to use other kinds of alcohol. I like vodka because it doesn't compete with the flavor. All you're getting is the vanilla. So, when you put it into your recipe, you have the vanilla flavor. The alcohol burns off. All extracts are made with alcohol. I think people are very surprised by this, when they're making their own, they want to do an alcohol-free extract. You can make a paste with glycerin if you don't want the alcohol, but all extracts that you've put in your recipes before have had alcohol and it just burns off.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that. Final ingredient is vinegar, which is a little unique in this recipe because I think you wrote that often. There's always going to be an acid. I think you wrote that it usually it's cream of tartar or vinegar. It's not both.
Zoë François:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you talk to us a little bit about why the vinegar's here, and also, if there's a favorite kind that you like to use?
Zoë François:
So, the vinegar's here in a very similar capacity to the cream of tartar because it's an acid. If you're making a meringue and you have it whipped up in your bowl and it's super glossy and beautiful, you can add a teaspoon of vinegar to that meringue and watch it. And it will get tighter. You can see the difference in the bowl. Maybe, because I've done it so many times, it's super obvious to me, but next time you try that, watch it and you'll see the vinegar react to it. It strengthens it immediately. This is yet another insurance that you're going to have the strength of it. Because we're asking this pavlova not to just be a blob on the paper, but we want it to stand up and do its beautiful tutu thing, it needed to be stronger than a typical pavlova recipe, because I'm asking more of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then, we're going to take all of our gorgeous foam after we've just... Again, we just did all of that either with a spatula or with the whisk from our stand mixer off the mixer just by hand, which I love, just to be gentle at the end. Now, you're going to put all of your foam into that six-inch circle that you drew on your parchment, parchment that's been flipped. And spread it into this moundy shape. And then, using large offset to swipe grooves in the foam.
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us your favorite offset, and also talk to me about mounding and swiping grooves? Is it hard?
Zoë François:
It's almost like when you are buttercreaming a cake. You are getting that really smooth surface around the edge. The key is, when you're mounting it, not to trap air bubbles inside. You want to make sure that it's one solid mass of this meringue, because if you have air bubbles in there and you put it in the oven, steam is going to be created in that air bubble and it's going to pop out of shape. So, make sure that you have it in one really nice mound, so you don't get cracking. And then, you're going to take your offset spatula and you're going to, just like you do with a cake, you're going to smooth the edges, flatten the top, maybe an inch wide, maybe three quarters of an inch wide metal spatula. Does not matter if it's straight or offset. I take it from the base of the pavlova. And I swipe it very gently, maybe going into it a quarter to a half of an inch, creating a groove all the way up at the top. I drag it off the top so that you get a little Dairy Queen swirl, because you want the drama.
Jessie Sheehan:
You said create curls at the top.
Zoë François:
Curls att the top, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I was wondering what the curls were. I love that.
Zoë François:
So, you know that Dairy Queen flip that you get? That's the goal. If you don't get it the first time, you can play with it. It's not that precious. You don't want to spend hours doing this. This is a five-minute project, less once you get the hang of it. And then, you just move on and you keep doing that over and over, swiping up, getting that little curly q at the top. And then, at the very end, you go into the top of it and you create, it's almost like a volcano.
So, you want that little bit of a hole in the top. So, just a slight indent. Maybe, go down an inch and create that indent, because you want to tell the meringue what you want it to do. So, if you don't create that little well at the top, it's not going to fall cleanly. And sometimes it won't. Sometimes, you'll take it out of the oven and it will not have fallen to look... It does look like a volcano when it comes out. It'll actually have a hole at the top, and you'll see that the interior of it has collapsed down in it, which is exactly what we want. And then, you have the shell around the outside. If it hasn't done that exactly and you still have a shell at the top as well, you can just take a pairing knife and very gently cut that off so it collapses as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. And we're going to bake for about an hour and 15 minutes until it's lightly tan and pale, lowering maybe the oven to 250 if it takes on too much color.
Zoë François:
That's right. And this is where I think recipe writing is most challenging, because everybody's oven behaves so differently. I have a fairly large capacity oven. And what that does is it's less intense heat than people who have tiny little ovens. They bake through quickly. And so, recipe timing is really about knowing your oven. Most ovens come with a window at this point, a window and a light. So, turn on the light. If it looks like it's turning tan, drop the temperature, because maybe your oven either needs to be calibrated or it just runs a little bit warm or it's smaller. But you can adjust, as you're going. It's going to take on a tiny bit of color. It's going to come out, not the stark white that it went in. It's going to come out almost like a cream color. But if it's turning tan or brown, it's caramelizing. The sugars in the recipe are caramelizing, and that's not entirely what we're going for.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, I love this. After your 75 minutes of baking, if you have an oven light, you should keep your tutu pavlova in the oven. Sometimes, in recipes, people rotate at the half mark of baking. You do not open the door with this pavlova, because you say there'll be less post-bake cracking-
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
... If you keep the oven door closed. And I love this, too, that you can keep it in the oven with the light on for two hours or up to overnight.
Zoë François:
Yeah, I've done it for a couple days.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love this.
Zoë François:
It's not awesome, a couple of days, because it actually dries out too much and becomes brittle. But the point is that you can leave it in there. Don't open the door because you don't want the moist. Especially in summer in Minnesota, when it's really humid, you don't want the humidity to get in there. The time that you don't want to be opening and closing the doors is when the pavlova is still hot, because you don't want the shock of cold air in there because the change in temperature is what has the potential to make it crack. And so, you want that steady heat. That's why I know some recipes, you stick a spoon in the door and you open it up and you let that happen. But for this one, because we want that beautiful smooth side, we don't want that drastic change in temperature. The oven light, the reason that I say to leave that on is because it leaves a little bit of warmth in your oven, continuing to dry it out.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now, you also say, if you don't have an oven light, just bake for a little bit longer and do the same kind of resting in the oven.
Zoë François:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, I don't want people to get nervous if they don't have an oven light. It's time to fill the pavlova. It seems like, at least in a few of the recipes that I looked, you almost have a layering thing going on, because you have your curd, but you cut it with a little whipped cream. And so, you'll have this curd whipped cream, then you'll have straight curd, then you'll have berries. How did that come to you, or was that always just the way that seemed right for this pavlova?
Zoë François:
Because a typical pavlova is flat, a piece of it isn't like a layered thing, like a cake. This, you're getting a fairly tall piece. So, I didn't want to just have a huge mound of whipped cream in there, because that was going to end up being quite a bit of whipped cream. It needed to have more layers. Plus, it's just fun. It's just fun. We're talking about meringue, which is inherently sweet. So, you want something that's going to be a nice contrast to that. You want a bitter, a sour, or a dark chocolate, or something that's going to balance out that flavor. So, lemon curd, passion fruit curd, something that's bright and bracing is a perfect match for this.
The other thing that you want to do is not add anything too liquidy, because that's going to end up dissolving your pavlova. Anything that you're putting inside of it is going to be a surprise when you cut into it because you won't be able to see it. It needs to have enough structure that it's going to sit there and not leak through your meringue. If you wanted to add berries that are juicy, you need to fold that into a mouse or a really, really stable whipped cream. Even your marshmallow whipped cream would be awesome for this, because you're adding some stability to it. And so, that's how that came about, was marrying those textures together so that they would sit still.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love that, in the book, you have a great whipped cream. People think like, oh, whipped cream. You can't improve upon it. But Zoë has. Because you have a couple of tricks and techniques for stable whipped cream. Can you walk us through it?
Zoë François:
Yeah. Really, the simple rule of thumb is low and slow. Low speed, really slowly done. I whip my whipped cream on medium slow speed. And the reason that I'm doing that is because the higher the speed, the larger the air bubbles that you're putting into your cream. And so, you're whipping it really fast, and it's going to whip super quickly, but you're going to end up with these giant air bubbles that are then going to collapse. By doing it low speed for a longer amount of time, you're incorporating these tiny little air bubbles that are really strong. And they're really stable. I will whip cream, and three days later it's still holding strong.
Jessie Sheehan:
Low and slow until the whisk is almost leaving tracks. And then, finish by hand.
Zoë François:
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Leaving tracks so that you know it's thickened up. But you can go too far on the show. I was saying those exact words, but I wasn't paying attention. And I looked down, and it was curdling. You can add a little bit more cream and try to get it back, but I just let it go and actually made butter, which is awesome. I think everybody should make their own butter, but only if you intend to. Not that you're trying to make whipped cream. But yes, I always take it off of the mixer and finish it up by hand so that I can see it. Again, it's that whole wanting to touch my food thing. I have more control than just looking at it on a machine.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, we're going to refrigerate the filled pavlova for about an hour, because that will help with slicing. And then, are we slicing with a serrated knife?
Zoë François:
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, a long serrated knife. And I thought this is a great segue into just a couple of troubleshooting tips for pavlovas. One of them was don't make ahead and put in the refrigerator. This is not a make-ahead dessert, because of getting soggy.
Zoë François:
Yeah, you can make it hours ahead. I just wouldn't do this a day or two ahead. Hours is fine in the refrigerator, but refrigerators are actually more humid than I think people give them credit for. It's also not a dessert that you can cover. Maybe, if you have a dome, you could do it. But humidity and baked meringues don't love each other. It'll just change the texture of it. It'll still be delicious. It won't have as much structure. This is the kind of thing where you can make it, bake it, leave it in the oven overnight, so you don't have to bake it and fill it all in the same day. You can spread things out. But don't fill it and leave it in the refrigerator for days.
Jessie Sheehan:
Makes sense. And the only other thing I wanted to flag, and we've obviously dealt with this issue throughout, but just avoiding cracks. You spell it out very simply. You make sure you're mixing to the right consistency. You want your stiff peaks, so there's not too much expanding once it's in the oven.
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
You want your oven not to be too hot, because again, it's all about expansion. You're going to have too much expansion, you're going to crack.
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, the final is the sugar dissolving in those whites.
Zoë François:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, that's just good for people to know. I know that can be a scary part of it, like, "Oh, it cracked."
Zoë François:
This is part of the learning curve, because like I said, everybody's mixer is different. Everybody's oven is different. If it cracks, like you said, hopefully, through listening to all of these things, you can adjust. And so, the next time, it'll crack less, and the next time, less and less. I would say the number-one reason for cracking is ovens. People bake them too high. I personally have been dropping the temperature. People will notice that the very first video that I did on Instagram around this, when I first made this tutu, the oven temperature was higher because I have a big oven and it can handle it. And then, I kept getting feedback that their pavlovas were cracking. So, I have been dropping the temperature because I think most people's ovens need it to be lower.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before we say goodbye, I just was hoping you could tell us about two other cakes in your book that I love, the OG [original] snack cake. And, of course, even though I've considered myself hip, I read that, I was like, "It's an OG cake. I wonder what an OG snack cake." So, please, peeps, forgive me, I don't get out enough. But the OG snack cake, and I'd love to hear about the plum cake, which you said was one of the favorites in the book.
Zoë François:
So, the OG snack cake came because we couldn't say Twinkie in the book. I couldn't call it Twinkie. Twinkies were my very first introduction to sugar because I grew up on a commune with hippie parents, no sugar. And I went to school, discovered Twinkies in somebody's lunchbox. And it just set the course of my whole life. So, of course, I had to have a Twinkie in there. My Twinkie is made with an olive oil chiffon cake. So, it's a little bit different probably than the original recipe, but it's delicious. I love it.
And the plum cake, it's so funny because this is really just something that is so satisfying to me on so many levels. The texture of it, the flavors with the tart plums, and the almond meal, and it's so simple to make, and it's so rustic, things don't have to be fancy to be fantastic. This is that cake for me. So easy to put together, but just all of the flavors come together in the perfect balance for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Zoë. And I just wanted to say that you are my cherry pie.
Zoë François:
I loved being here with you. Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to look Le Creuset and California Prunes for sponsoring today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on your favorite podcast platform, and tell your baking buddies about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studios in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker. And our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.