Ellen King Transcript

 Ellen King Transcript

Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everybody. You're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Today's guest is one of the most passionate bread bakers around. I'm talking about Ellen King, co-owner of Hewn Bakery in Evanston, Illinois and author of the cookbook, Heritage Baking. Ellen is a champion of heritage grains and loves bread probably more than anyone I know. Ellen will join me in just a minute to talk about holiday baking, and she has some thoughts on what you might want to make and bake this Thanksgiving.

Thank you to Kerrygold, the maker of beautiful butter and cheese with dairy from Irish grass-fed cows for supporting today's show. Also, thanks to Kerrygold, we'll be bringing you special conversations with some of our favorite bakers like Ellen throughout the holiday baking season. They'll share tips, tricks, and inspiration for making beautiful baked goods for all your celebrations. We'll hear a word from Kerrygold in just a minute.

What else? You know how much we all love Julia Child here at Cherry Bombe. Well, today's episode is also presented by Julia, the brand-new documentary about the legend who changed the way Americans think about television, food, and women. You know who made the documentary. This is very exciting. It's Julie Cohen and Betsy West, the directors of the Academy Award-nominated RBG which I know many of you have seen. Obviously, for Julia fans, this documentary is a must-see.

If you are new to the world of Julia Child, Julia is an amazing introduction as it shows the delicious life of America's first food icon through never-before-seen archival footage and personal photos. If you live in New York or LA, you can go see Juliet in theaters right now. For everyone else, Julia opens nationwide on November 24.

Let's do a little housekeeping. I'm inviting all of you to join us for a very Cherry Bombe Friendsgiving. Our annual celebration of food gratitude and new traditions. Every day this week, we've got a special demo talk or panel with your favorite food personalities. So, check out the calendar @cherrybombe.com and sign up. Everything is free and on Zoom and open to all.

Thanks to our sponsors, Kerrygold, Sanpellegrino, Sir Kensington's, Cakebread Cellars, Sequoia Grove Winery, and California Prunes. Now, a quick word from our friends at Kerrygold, then we'll check in with Ellen King.

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Kerry Diamond:
Ellen, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.

Ellen King:
Thanks for having me. This is exciting.

Kerry Diamond:
So, we are going to talk about holiday baking. I'm so excited to talk to you. The last time I saw you, it was when you had your old location. You I think had just bought maybe the new space. So, I did get to see the old space, which was very special. But you did move. So, tell us about this new space. That's not so new anymore that you're in.

Ellen King:
Yeah, it's definitely not new anymore and it's been broken in. I feel like if you weather a pandemic in a place, it quickly becomes like an old pair of jeans with lots of tears. So, we're there.

Kerry Diamond:
That could be a good thing.

Ellen King:
Yeah. No, it's great. The new space, it's about seven square feet, which for us is massive. And it's just great. It's an old building that was built in 1927. And what's funny about it is, it actually used to, there was a bakery in one of the spaces back in the '30s. So, I feel like this property historically has weathered a depression, world war, and now a pandemic. So, it's nice just to be into this space. And we were able to spread out our staff really well.

And it's just cool. It's just a great, we call it our bunker because it's like an old brick building. And we have air conditioning, which is actually really exciting. Yeah. We never had that before.

Kerry Diamond:
That's a biggie. And tell us who the us is.

Ellen King:
Yeah. So, Julie and I own the business. And then, we have a great team of a bunch of bakers, and baristas, and drivers for our wholesale. So, we have about 30 people.

Kerry Diamond:
And you and Julie if I remember correctly have a meet-cute story.

Ellen King:
Yeah. We met back in 2012, and I had my Underground Bread Club. And she was a customer. And I was pushing bread to all the preschooler parents, because I use my son as the dealer. So, we met through our kids at preschool, and Julie thought it would be fun to open a bakery. I, for the record, never thought it would be fun. It's been proven that it is not always fun, but honestly, it's great.

I can't imagine doing anything else. I love what I do. And I feel really lucky to meet people like you and to be making bread for our community, especially through a time that's been really stressful. So, it is definitely, like my purpose is to be here.

Kerry Diamond:
I remember being really bummed that I did not live in Evanston that time I was at your bakery, because I couldn't buy enough stuff to bring back. And I was like, "Okay, if you buy a million things, you have to eat a million things." So, I tried to limit myself in how many loaves of bread and pastries I bought to bring back with me, but it was still a lot. But I do need to come back and see the new space and see you, too.

Ellen King:
Definitely.

Kerry Diamond:
I did go on the website and look at the Thanksgiving menu though. What's going on for Thanksgiving?

Ellen King:
I think what's really fun is our taken bake stuff that we do because it's the only time of the year that we make, like gougères for people to take home and bake for their own little appetizers. Our brie en croute, which is awesome. We have a nice brie that we make a little nice little pie shell for it. And then, it gets a little bit of a fig compote on it.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my gosh, you're speaking language gougères and brie en croute. I won't even tell you how I made brie en croute a few Thanksgivings ago. I think I made it with crescent roll dough, the Pillsbury can that you whack on the counter. Yeah, I don't know.

Ellen King:
It was delicious though.

Kerry Diamond:
It was delicious.

Ellen King:
Yeah, I'm not judging. Honestly, that sounds delicious.

Kerry Diamond:
You sounds like an upgrade.

Ellen King:
It's a little bit of an upgrade. We work with local flour for our pie shells and for the croute dough. And so, it's delicious. It's nice. People can take it home and bake it themselves. So, it's fresh and they look like the genius that's hosting a party or a small Thanksgiving. And then, we do pies. We never do pies except for at Christmas and Thanksgiving.

So, the two pies that we do, we always do a bourbon pecan that we work with a local distillery, and then a pumpkin pie just because that's old school. We get really good organic pumpkin and we just do an old-school pumpkin pie. And then, some dinner rolls.

Kerry Diamond:
You don't even have a pie recipe in the cookbook in Heritage Baking.

Ellen King:
No. Because I guess I'm not American in the sense that I just, pies I like, but I like it. I like a slice, and then I'm done. That's it. I'm not like a pie maven at all. Probably because my mom, she hated to cook, and literally you'll see there's a banana bread recipe. That was the thing my mom cooked banana bread and would do it and freeze it as bricks. And then, pull it out and gift it, frozen banana bread.

I shouldn't say this because she'll listen and be like, "That was a great gift." It was. People loved it. But it would be like small little bricks that she would wrap in foil and then give out. So, banana bread to me is high-class baking for the King family.

Kerry Diamond:
No one wants their banana bread reference to as bricks that much I know.

Ellen King:
I know. It just looked like a silver brick, but it did taste. She had a good recipe down, for sure. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Because I was surprised. I was flipping through the cookbook again. And I was like, "Wow, there's not a single pie recipe. What a rebel, not to put a pie recipe in a baking cookbook." But you know what, I might be similar to you. I grew up in a family that pretty much only had pumpkin pie maybe at the holidays. And I never liked fruit pie.

But I realized as an adult I had just never had a good fruit pie. And I happen to live near Four & Twenty Blackbirds, and walked over on their opening day and was introduced to all these fabulous pies. And now, I am a convert.

Ellen King:
Yeah, I think that is it. Right? You have a good pie and all of a sudden you realize it's magical.

Kerry Diamond:
So, all those people who don't think they'd like fruit pie, you might just not have had a good fruit pie.

Ellen King:
I became a convert this summer when our pastry chef made a delicious blueberry pie.

Kerry Diamond:
It's a great blueberry. You know what's really, really good? Sour cherry pie. Have you ever had a good sour cherry pie?

Ellen King:
Actually, yes. You know what, we used to make that at Christmas. I think we're making that at Christmas actually. Yes, we make the cherry.

Kerry Diamond:
Those are game-changers. All right. So, talk to me about your two pies. What is special about them? And who's making all that pie crust? Is it not you?

Ellen King:
We've had some years where it was a debacle. Literally, we miscounted. It was Thanksgiving Day. And there I am literally thinking everything's wrapped up. It's like the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. And we were short 25 pies. And I remember being in the kitchen. I had let all my-

Kerry Diamond:
No.

Ellen King:
It was like literally, I had stolen their kitten. It was horrible. So, I had to be in the back. Wednesday, I let all my bakers go. And all of a sudden, I realized we're short. So, I was making pumpkin pies as fast as I could in the back. So, anyhow now, we always have a buffer of a lot of pies. But what makes it special is I think like in the pie crust that I have always made, I always add cornmeal into it. And so, we mill down Bloody Butcher, the variety of cornmeal. And then, add that into our crust.

So, it adds a little bit of a texture to it. And the crust itself is just delicious. It's just butter. It's old school, very simple. They're baked fresh. Normally, they're baked on Monday or Tuesday, right, before Thanksgiving. So, I think it's just also really fresh. And we use a bourbon from few spirits, which is a friend of mine, because he was in my bread club. And then, he started a distillery.

I only go with people that are in the bread club back in the day. And we use really good pecans. And the same goes with the pumpkin. We used to do our own little puree and then we realize we don't have the equipment. So, now we work. We actually ordered all of our organic pumpkin because it's in short supply.

We started ordering that in July. We stockpiled our pumpkin. And then, with our pumpkin pie, we actually add a little bit of the ginger molasses cookies to the crust which is delicious.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, yum. So, you also have all your other offerings during the holidays. Tell us what some of the most popular items are at the bakery.

Ellen King:
Well. So, if you just come in for pastries, like our galettes, those are always a huge hit. So, right now, we're using apples and pears for the galettes. And we'll probably keep that through Thanksgiving. So, just like a simple fruit galette. Any of our croissants are always hugely popular. Pretty much chocolate croissants. We can't keep those in stock.

What else are we doing? Oh, gosh, there's so many different things that we've tried to just switch up fun things. Whoopie pies. We're making a really fun pumpkin whoopie pie with a little cream cheese filling. So, that's really delicious.

Kerry Diamond:
Another whoopie pie.

Ellen King:
Yeah, that's inspired by name. I think that's their state dessert is like a whoopie pie. So, what else? And breads. We have a ton of different like, we're going to do our autumn bread, which is a really fun bread that we take squash, a heritage variety of squash and roast it. And then, puree it and fold that into bread with some pumpkin seeds. One of our head baker came up with that a few years ago, and that's like a huge hit.

Kerry Diamond:
That sounds so good. What does that puree add to the bread?

Ellen King:
Yeah, it makes it a little bit slightly orangish, which is cool. It also adds just that like, it's a subtle roasted squash flavor. Like you won't be like, "Oh, I just got a chunk of squash in there." It's more just like a richness, a smoothness to it. And then, the crumb itself of the bread becomes silky. It's really interesting.

It's a cream. I would call it a creamy bread. But maybe it's because I eat bread all the time. Most people wouldn't even be like, "That wasn't creamy." It just to me is more silky and smooth.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds so good. You've really made a name for yourself as a champion of heritage grains. So, I'd love for you to explain to folks what does that mean? What is a heritage grain?

Ellen King:
Yeah. So, a heritage grain is basically a variety that was grown before World War II. And there's some that are called like modern heritage meaning that it's based off of heritage seeds. And it's grown after World War II. But pre-World War II basically it means before we started really tinkering with the wheat seeds, and modifying them to grow in an environment where you need a lot of synthetic inputs, meaning fertilizers, pesticides, depleting the land to be able to grow higher and higher yields of wheat.

So, heritage varieties are wheat varieties that were grown for, historically, for taste and to grow in your region. And so, it's really important to us that we source our grains locally and organically. And that impacts the flavor. We do have where we make breads that are from the Turkey Red seed. And that's the berry that was commonly grown like actually, Kansas, 90% of the wheat fields back before World War II where the Turkey Red variety, it grew really well in that region.

And so, for us, it's working with heritage varieties because they are grown organically in our region. We are seeing this more and more that due to climate change, there's different wheat. So, some deal with drought better. Some deal with really wet conditions better. And that's super important to work within your region and find the farmers that are growing that. And then, for us, that's what we use in our breads and pastries.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's say you've only used conventional flour that you get at the supermarket, like traditional white, AP flour. How do you start to experiment with heritage grains? And where can you even find these things that you're talking about?

Ellen King:
Grocery stores are not carrying a lot of... they're not carrying local flour. They're still carrying the larger producers. So, I would start with literally just doing a Google search in your area, because pretty much every region in this country now has wheat that's being grown. Florida is not, but Florida's always the outlier. So, let's just leave it at that. But pretty much even Texas has an interesting stone mill down there. You have in the Northeast, Stone Mills. So, Google just what's in your area, and all of these farms, they ship the grain.

And so, they'll ship it flat rate, and it's not as expensive as you think to get access to really good stone mill organic grains. And the reason why stone milling is such a difficult issue to just talking like 30 seconds of why stone milling is better than conventional wheat that's roller mill. So, the difference with when you're working with stone mill is you're getting all of the fats and oils and vitamins milled down into your berry whereas conventional wheat is, it's produced in such a massive process.

When you're working with local stone mills, commonly they're taking one field, that berry. They're pouring it into the hopper and they mill it down and you have your flour complete, meaning it has the bran, the germ, and the endosperm. When you're buying conventional wheat, you're getting it separated out from many, many different fields and farms, and they're stripping out the bran and the germ to make their white flour. So, you're just getting the least nutritious part of the berry.

So, there's really two components. It's the varieties of wheat. It's the stone milling and then it's being grown without pesticides and fertilizers and Roundup, actually.

Kerry Diamond:
And do you still sell flour? I feel like the one time I was there, you were selling flour.

Ellen King:
Yeah, we sell a ton of flour. Actually, we were just having a debate about it because it's weird. It goes through spurts, and now that it's gotten cold we've just sold out literally almost of our flour. So, we sell a ton of flour from Janie's Farm which is here in Illinois, and then Meadowlark which is in Wisconsin.

Kerry Diamond:
I'd love to talk about some recipes from your cookbook and things that people can make for the upcoming Thanksgiving. So let's talk cornbread now because you have a few recipes for cornbread. You've got your heritage cornbread, your Habanero-Cilantro-Lime Cornbread, and you've got an onion-Parmesan if I remember correctly. Yes, a caramelized onion and parm cornbread. Which would you say is the winner for Thanksgiving?

Ellen King:
I love the caramelized onion, because I just, first off, whenever I smell caramelized onions, I love that smell. It means like something delicious is happening. So, I would go with that one. Plus, you can caramelize a bunch of onions and then fold them into your stuffing, right, as you're making that. So, it's got many different uses.

The cornbread, to be honest, one of my favorite things is that picture on page 154, that's like, I found that in an old antique shop, that cornbread sliver, like that, if you have a cast iron, it's the best to bake cornbread. And you get that nice crust on the bottom that's crispy and rich, but you're not going to be able to probably find that.

Kerry Diamond:
So, that's your vintage pan that you used.

Ellen King:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's cool. That's gorgeous.

Ellen King:
I know. It's such a great fun pan for cornbread. It's like cornbread pie or cornbread pizza is what it looks like.

Kerry Diamond:
So, what's the secret to a great cornbread?

Ellen King:
I really think it is the cast iron. I'm going to let you in on a secret. I actually am going to sound how I don't love pie and cornbread. I do not like cornbread. And so, my challenge was to make a cornbread that I really like because I find cornbread to be really, really dry. And I don't like it dry. But I don't want it to be like laden with cheese where I feel like I'm eating something gooey and rich. So, I challenged myself to make a cornbread that I would actually want to eat over my dinner roll.

And so, I think first off is the variety of corn. Using a variety, like corn has a ton of different flavors. We either use the Bloody Butcher or we can use, there's this White Sonoran, which is a beautiful, it's grown traditionally in the southwest it was grown, and it's very drought tolerant. It's a delicate corn. It's so rich and flavorful.

So, I would say with the cornbread, it really, really is worth it to find a local heritage variety of corn because it'll make your cornbread tastes amazing. And then, baking it in a cast iron, because then you're getting that really nice crust with a really rich corn. And, I mean, this recipe, it's pretty straightforward. I like to add a little bit of lemon zest into it, and then it just balances it out. I like how it plays with the corn a little bit.

Kerry Diamond:
And you do have a little sugar in there. I know there's always a debate about how much sugar goes into the cornbread.

Ellen King:
Yeah, I do add a little bit of sugar. Not a lot. It's like a quarter cup. But I do add sugar because like I said, I let you know that I don't love cornbread. So, it's a little bit of the sweetness and the umami of the caramelized onions and then the richness of the parm. This is delicious. But the citrus, the Habanero-Cilantro-Lime Cornbread is also really fun but I like that one not at the holiday time. I like that more summer party.

Kerry Diamond:
Got it. Okay. So, how about the make-ahead situation? Is cornbread best made day of?

Ellen King:
I like cornbread the day of because I love when it's.... like reheating cornbread, like I said it gets that dry. And just, for me, it doesn't hold up as well. Made that day, this recipe is, it doesn't really require you to let it proof at all. So, that's what's nice is you need maybe like a max of, I don't know, like 15 minutes all set and done to get this done. So, this is something worth doing day of and just serve it warm with butter.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh yum. Since you've got all this bread floating around, what do you do for stuffing?

Ellen King:
Hmm. Here at the bakery and what I do is, I'll save some of my old loaves, and I'll chop them into half-inch sizes of just cubes. And I toss it with some melted rosemary butter. And then, I cook the bread to reduce it into my own little croutons. And then, I let it set overnight just to like, extra, because I don't want to dry it in the oven too long because it can get darker. So, you can make your crouton either in the oven or just let it sit overnight. And then, I make my stuffing with that.

Kerry Diamond:
With anything else?

Ellen King:
Well yeah, I'll add veggie stock. I'll add if I had the caramelized onions in the cornbread, I would add that. So, I make sure I have veggie stock or chicken stock. But veggie stock is always easier to make.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, so you make it from scratch? Of course.

Ellen King:
Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
A dumb question. Why veggie stock versus chicken stock?

Ellen King:
Just because if I don't have, I'll freeze a bunch of my chicken stock. Veggie stock, I never planned right now with the holidays. I'm so focused on the bakery that I ended up making veggie stock because it's only 45 minutes for me to make that, start-to-finish. I also like it, it's just a little lighter. But the chicken stock, amazing. But I don't plan ahead.

Kerry Diamond:
What do you throw into your veggie stock?

Ellen King:
I'm old school, French chef trained. So, it's carrot. It's onions, carrots, celery. And then, the bay leaf, some peppercorns, parsley stems, and I always do thyme. That is my favorite herb. Officially, I love thyme in all ways. So, I add some thyme. I'll add a little bit of garlic, just hold close if I have it.

I'll cut it into the smaller dice because it is only a 45-minute cook. And then, leeks if I have them, I'll do a little. I normally don't have a leak. And then, if I've saved the stems from my mushrooms, I'll add that into there, just a little bit. And then, 45 minutes, let it cook and then strain it.

Kerry Diamond:
Perfect.

Ellen King:
And then, that's easy. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Since Thanksgiving and Hanukkah are so close, I noticed you've also got your Hanukkah offerings on the website already. Tell us what you'll be doing.

Ellen King:
So, the biggest thing that we do is the sufganiyots. And those are essentially, for the non-Jewish person. It's like a filled donut that represents Hanukkah, the miracle of having eight days of oil. Now, one thing that sacrilege, we do it a little different because Hanukkah is all about celebrating the oil, right? So, that's why you do latkes and you do everything that's fried. We bake our sufganiyots. They are baked.

Why do we do that? We don't have a fryer, and we really wanted to be able to do something to celebrate. And so, we bake them. And honestly, most people, I mean, we tell everybody because if you really want to celebrate the miracle of the oil lasting, you got to go to a different bakery and get a fried donut. Sufganiyot, but we bake them.

And they're delicious. They're not as oily or greasy. And it's filled with, gosh, I think we're filling it this year with cherries, because red is the traditional filling for it. And they're amazing. But I like to preface this because we had one customer that was really upset when she found out that it was baked, not fried.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so everybody. If you're going, just so you know.

Ellen King:
It's baked, it's baked. And we apologize, but you'll feel better after eating it. And you can have all the latkes that you want.

Kerry Diamond:
And you've also got challa, and I think you have a restriction on how many loaves people can actually buy from you.

Ellen King:
We do. We have to set that. We also set the limit on the sufganiyots, too. We set a limit, although everybody every year likes to tell us how they bypassed our limit by having different names and different emails to order it. So, we don't police it that much, because it's too much. But yes, we have a limit on the challa. We do it in the round shape, which is really fun. So, it's a little bit more festive. And then, the babka is also just a delicious fun.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh, chocolate babka. Why is chocolate babka having such a moment aside from the fact that it's amazing?

Ellen King:
Delicious? Yeah. I don't know. It's been actually a few years. And I feel like it starts and stops. And maybe it's truly going to shine this year, because we've done it for several years. And I'm always amazed at how, like some days, it'll sell. And then, like some days, it's like, "Nah, I don't want the babka." So, I think it's amazing. It's like combining chocolate and an enriched dough. It's delicious.

Kerry Diamond:
How much of a production is the chocolate babka?

Ellen King:
It's a pretty good size. I mean, we've nailed it down over the years of how we do it. So, we have a big wood table. And we'll sheet out that dough into a big massive sheet and then spread the filling in there. And then, roll it up, twist it, and then bake it. And it's in a really cool containers that people can take home.

So, it's not a massive production. I'd say the sufganiyots are the bigger production. Those are full-on a lot of work. But everybody here, we love them.

Kerry Diamond:
And a lot of people are making challa and chocolate babka at home. I'm sure you've seen that on Instagram.

Ellen King:
Yeah. I mean, that's a great, making challa at home, especially because you've got the cultural significance of it. It's really fun to be able to make it at home with your kids and with your family. And it's one of those things that it's an enriched bread.

You do have to let it proof a little bit but it's got the instant yeast in it. So, it's a quicker process that warrants itself to being made at home around the holidays. And I don't care how it looks. And if you make it at home, it always tastes great.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's really nice to say.

Ellen King:
Maybe not always. I would never do that.

Kerry Diamond:
The sentiment is fabulous. How about chocolate babka? Any tips for making that at home?

Ellen King:
It's a little bit messier than you would think when you do the filling. And the other tip is that you might think, oh, my gosh, I really overloaded it with the chocolate and just you can't go too heavy on it like it'll turn out. When you look at it when it's been spread out on your table, don't pull back. Go big on it. And then, save some for the top to spread on the top.

Kerry Diamond:
Ellen, what's your favorite part of Thanksgiving?

Ellen King:
For sure, my two, well, okay, besides being around family. But for me, my favorite thing is that while the bakery is closed. But really, what I love to eat my favorite is the stuffing with good gravy on it. I love that. I just, like a turkey I love, but I fill up on that the gravy and the stuffing with some mashed potatoes. That is, I could eat that all day, and dinner rolls.

Kerry Diamond:
I love that you are never sick of bread.

Ellen King:
It's funny. Yeah. I am never, like I'm sick of, I don't really eat our pastries anymore, like I don't want to eat bread. In all the years, I've never gotten sick of eating bread. I love everything about bread though. I really do.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's a good thing, huh?

Ellen King:
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about the Thanksgiving leftover situation at home.

Ellen King:
Normally, I will have turkey leftover. We all have stuffing leftover, always stuffing and always mashed potatoes. Now, green beans, not my favorite. So, there's always that leftover. Because my mom, growing up, it was always green beans with the almond slivers in it. And it was the Eagle's Eye ones that came frozen in a block. So, I make a fresh version with green beans just as tribute to my childhood. Just traditional. I've got to have leftover turkey stuffing, mashed potatoes and gravy. That's what I have, too.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you make any sandwiches, leftover sandwiches?

Ellen King:
Well, yes, the dinner rolls. I have extra. I don't really like cranberry. So, I tell you all things I don't like. But I don't love cranberry sauce, but I'll eat it on my sandwich. I'll put a layer of the cranberry sauce on the bottom. I'll put the dark turkey meat on our little dinner rolls. And then, on top of that, I'll put a little bit of the gravy drizzled. And I just eat those sandwiches. Eat them up on the little dinner rolls.

Kerry Diamond:
That's sounds good.

Ellen King:
I don't like to do the big bread sandwiches with it because I love the sweetness of the dinner rolls that play to the turkey.

Kerry Diamond:
And a little mayo or mustard or a condiment?

Ellen King:
No, no, no.

Kerry Diamond:
No condiment.

Ellen King:
No.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay.

Ellen King:
No condiments, except for the cranberry sauce. I'll call that my condiment.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I do a condiment. I love leftover turkey cranberry, my mom's stuffing, and then some mayo. I love that.

Ellen King:
That sounds good.

Kerry Diamond:
And maybe some lettuce. I think I've been known in the past to put some lettuce on it. But maybe now that I think about it-

Ellen King:
That's good to add some-

Kerry Diamond:
... am I imagining that I did that? I have to think deep and remember. Yeah.

Ellen King:
Yeah, I don't add lettuce on it. I do sound such a carnivore. I sound like such a gluttonous.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I probably made that up. I probably don't put lettuce on it either. I'm trying to remember. I feel like there's another element that I put on it that I'm forgetting. But do you make homemade cranberry sauce?

Ellen King:
I do if I have the time. At the bakery here, we actually have our sandwich that's on the menu right now that's our turkey and cranberry. So, we make our cranberry sauce. So, this year, I'll be lazy. And I'll just take it from the bakery and bring it home. And I won't get it. But it sounds really bad. Like if my mom celebrates Thanksgiving with us, she likes it from the can.

Kerry Diamond:
So does my family. Yep.

Ellen King:
Right?

Kerry Diamond:
I make it homemade because it's so easy. You can make it in like five minutes. I don't even put sugar in it. I put orange juice in it. The traditional recipe cost for a lot of sugar. So, I make it and I put it in the bowl on the table. And I'm the only one who eats it. And my family loves the canned cranberry that I can't even say it. My family loves the canned cranberry sauce. And they don't even mash it up. They leave it in the can shape.

Ellen King:
In the can.

Kerry Diamond:
Does your mom do that?

Ellen King:
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. I know. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Every year.

Ellen King:
And I'm not going to be-

Kerry Diamond:
And then, I get to take home my leftover cranberry sauce.

Ellen King:
Yeah. I know. Yeah, it's a battle not worth fighting. Right? You can't compete. Maybe if you made it in the can shape, maybe you should bring it over.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's really funny.

Ellen King:
Find a tin can and then bring it over. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my gosh, that'd be really funny, and see if they noticed the difference. I think they would notice the difference.

Ellen King:
They might say it's extra good. Like, this is delicious. They upped their game.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I'm not so sure. Anyway, let's do a quick speed round. We'll make it holiday-themed.

Ellen King:
Okay.

Kerry Diamond:
What is a baking cookbook that you love?

Ellen King:
Oh, my gosh, I'm going to look at my shelf because I always forget. Well, a baking cookbook that I love, I mean honestly, I don't make a lot of these recipes because they're very time-intensive, but Pierre Hermé.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, Pierre.

Ellen King:
I mean-

Kerry Diamond:
The king of macaroons.

Ellen King:
He is. But I actually have never made his macaroons. I've always done his other stuff. He has amazing little tarts and cakes and all of that.

Kerry Diamond:
Have you met Dorie Greenspan?

Ellen King:
No, I haven't

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you have to meet Dorie. She worked with him on one of his cookbooks.

Ellen King:
I've never met her. But obviously her cookbooks, phenomenal, amazing. I did meet Pierre though. I did meet Pierre Hermé.

Kerry Diamond:
In Paris.

Ellen King:
Yeah. In Paris. It was totally embarrassing. I totally made a fool of myself. I got so flustered. My face got super red. I started sweating. It was like the weirdest chemical reaction. Yes, he's a famous pastry chef, but it's not like I was meeting like, I don't know.

Kerry Diamond:
That's funny. Like you met Obama or Mick Jagger or something. Yeah.

Ellen King:
Yeah. I think I got myself so nervous, because I just was like, I was so, yeah. He was lovely. He was so sweet. I think he sensed the chemical reaction that was happening that embarrassed him as well. So, he's trying to make me feel better.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so cute. Okay. Most used kitchen tool.

Ellen King:
Bench scraper.

Kerry Diamond:
Bench scraper. Okay. Do you listen to music in the kitchen?

Ellen King:
I do. Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
What do you play?

Ellen King:
What music? Okay, well, I have to preface this that my son is, he plays the French horn and the trombone and the mellophone. And so, my music is very bizarre. So, I listened to, one of the things I love if I'm alone baking, especially for the holidays, I know I'll be listening to Ludovico Einaudi who's just phenomenal. We saw him in concert years ago or Bunny Bear. Always loved Bunny Bear.

I always wanted to stalk and just write and be like, "Could you please come visit my bakery? I would love it. I love making bread to your music because it pairs so well." But I haven't stalked him yet. Because after the Pierre Hermé thing, I can't be around any more people that I admire. I just don't know what I'll do.

Kerry Diamond:
Well, the last question is going to be a good one. But we'll get to that in a second. Footwear of choice in the kitchen.

Ellen King:
Oh, for sure, sneakers. And some people call them tennis shoes. Other people call them gym shoes, but I call them sneakers and just New Balance.

Kerry Diamond:
So, no plugs.

Ellen King:
I got to have good support.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay.

Ellen King:
No.

Kerry Diamond:
Your sneaker chefs.

Ellen King:
I'm a sneaker.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay.

Ellen King:
Yeah.

Kerry Diamond:
Aprons? Do you have a favorite apron?

Ellen King:
Yeah, Headley & Bennett.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, so you're part of Ellen's, her squad. The apron squad.

Ellen King:
Yes.

Kerry Diamond:
Yes, yes.

Ellen King:
We're part of that apron squad and we love it. I think they're great.

Kerry Diamond:
Ellen is the best. Okay. Dream travel destination.

Ellen King:
Okay. So, I guess, one place that's always been on my list and it just seems intimidating because I don't speak the language. I just really want to go to Japan. I know that is not like Fiji or Australia or whatever. But there's something I love. I love about Japanese, the thoughtfulness of everything. Their bowls. I love bonsais. I have a whole series of bonsai trees. I would love to go to Japan.

Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think the thing for me is I don't want to go for just a week. I mean, it seems like you have to go for a few weeks because of the jetlag, the time, and everything.

Ellen King:
Yeah. I would love to live there for a little bit. I mean, I don't speak Japanese. I don't have anything other than just really loving the food, the culture. I love the purity. Yeah. I would love to go there.

Kerry Diamond:
All right. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be? And why?

Ellen King:
Oh, gosh. Okay, this is a tough one. I heard you ask this. So, I had a little heads up. Well, I guess, I am at a disadvantage. Does it have to be living, a living?

Kerry Diamond:
No. It could be whoever.

Ellen King:
Okay. Because I don't know a lot of food celebrities. But I think one of the things when I was trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life is I found at used-bookstore books by Elizabeth David. And I just loved her writing style. And I loved the idea of the period she was writing through.

I don't know if I'd be bored by her or maybe she'd be intimidating because she's maybe a little stuffy. But I would love to meet her and make me like a little simple Mediterranean meal from one of her cookbooks.

Kerry Diamond:
Your desert island Mediterranean meal.

Ellen King:
Yes. Right? Maybe inspired with the Cotswolds around us or something.

Kerry Diamond:
So, you'd like to be dropped in the Cotswolds versus a desert island?

Ellen King:
Yes. Drop me in the Cotswolds for sure. I know.

Kerry Diamond:
So funny. I do think you're the first one to say Elizabeth David. So, great answer. Great answer.

Ellen King:
Oh, good. Okay, well.

Kerry Diamond:
I've encouraged a few folks to pick up her books.

Ellen King:
Have you read some of her books?

Kerry Diamond:
I have. I haven't read everything but I've definitely read some. I feel the same way about like MFK Fisher and Nigella, and they're all just such beautiful writers. It always makes me doubt myself as a writer, but I do love just falling into the way they use words.

Ellen King:
Right? Just that, it's just for me, to combine words and food like that. It's like butter. It's like my favorite thing. It's like butter and bread. That's it.

Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Ellen King. If you are in the Chicago area, make sure to check out Hewn Bakery in Evanston and tell them Cherry Bombe sent you. Warning, there is no way you'll be leaving empty handed. And everybody else, check out Ellen's cookbook, Heritage Baking. Pick up a copy from your favorite local bookstore.

Thank you to Kerrygold and Julia, the documentary for supporting today's episode. Don't forget a very Cherry Bombe Friendsgiving is underway this week. And you can sign up for our free events @cherrybombe.com. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe magazine.

If you enjoyed this episode, check out our other chats with great bakers and makers, including Dorie Greenspan, Natasha Pickowicz and Claudia Fleming. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks to our assistant producer Jenna Sadhu, and thanks to you for listening. You are the bombe.