Alison Van de Berghe Transcript
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Hi, everyone. You're listening to The Future Of Food Is You, a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Abena Anim-Somuah, and each week, I talk to emerging talents in the food world and they share what they're up to as well as their dreams and predictions for what's ahead. As for me, I'm the founder of The Eden Place, a community that's all about gathering people intentionally around food. I love this new generation of chefs, bakers, and creatives making their way in the world of food, drink, media, and tech. Today's guest is Alison Van de Berghe. Alison is the founder of AVDB, a consulting brand focused on supporting women in food and drink. I'm excited to chat with Alison about what it means to be a consultant, our mutual love for Mexico City, and her next opening, a new wine bar in Mexico City's popular Condesa neighborhood. It's called Niv Bar and will be open on Saturday, March 4th.
Here's a quick update from Cherry Bombe HQ. The Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference is taking place Saturday, April 15th, at Center415 in Manhattan. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women in and around the world of food and drink, and this will be our 10th in-person Jubilee. It's also Cherry Bombe's 10th birthday, so there's a lot to celebrate. Jubilee day is filled with great talks, networking, beautiful things to eat and drink, and lots of opportunities for connection, conversation, and community. I've been to an in-person Jubilee and their virtual Jubilee, and it is definitely a place to meet fellow foodies and make connections for life. Jubilee tickets are on sale right now, so visit cherrybombe.com for more or click on the link in our show notes. I can't wait to see you there. If you do plan to be there, please come and say hi.
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Now, let's check in with today's guests. Alison, hello.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Hey.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How's it going?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Great, so happy to be here.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Let's talk a little bit about where you grew up and how food showed up in your life.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Sure. So I am from the Northeast originally, and food has always been really one of my most prominent memories. My mom, actually, after she finished her career in finance, she became a test baker. So growing up, she test bakes for cookbooks. Growing up, we would have a month of different kinds of brownies, a month of different kinds of fudge, a month of different kinds of ice cream, literally for my whole life. So food was always really present in my life. There's this great story that my parents always tell where, when I was little and I was playing soccer, one time, I came home and told my parents my favorite part of playing soccer was the oranges at halftime. And they're like, "We're not driving her there anymore. That's enough." But it's so linked with all my memories and it's just such an important part of who I am.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Do we know any of the cookbooks that your mom has recipe tested for?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yes, they're written by Abby Dodge. She's fantastic. The Everyday Baker is probably her most popular, and I know she's a big fan of Cherry Bombe.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. You're still in the Northeast, moving south to D.C. and you're at George Washington University. What was the food scene like there? How did food start to now play a role in college?
Alison Van de Berghe:
So I was always a foodie, but I never imagined myself entering this space professionally. I majored in international politics. I minored in journalism. That's not really going to gear you towards a career in food, but I did study abroad in Paris, which influenced-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The dream.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was amazing, and I took a class at Science Po called The Sociocultural History of Food, and it really shifted my perspective on how actually my major and minor can relate to food and agriculture because it was talking about the migration of different products such as salt or wine. As a 20-year-old in Paris, doing wine tastings for school, that was pretty amazing. But beyond that, I started to see how when you really love international politics, you really love people and culture, food is such a tangible way to exist in that space. So I started to see how, when you really care about wine, for example, you're learning about the economy and the agriculture and the family stories and the history, and so it's just a great way to learn about different cultures around the world.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How was Paris? I'm sure Paris probably brought out so many senses for you.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So many.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Just going to get a baguette or just going to the marché during the afternoons. That must have been so fun.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was incredible. It was really my introduction to wine and my lifelong affair with pastries. It changed everything for me. I really was that girl that came back and was like, "I studied abroad."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The "I studied abroad" girl.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Exactly, but it really did. I go back quite often or as much as I can really, and especially now that I work in wine, I'm so much more interested in my life there. When I was there as a 20-year-old, I had no idea what I was doing. I was just absorbing it all.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. What are your two go-to spots? What would you consider your Alison-certified gems in Paris?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Gems in Paris? L'Avant Comptoir. That's one of my favorite spots. It's a wine bar.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's such a good place.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. Bistro Pomaire. You can't go wrong with either of those. Those are the best.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And then you're done in D.C. and Paris, you head to the Bay Area, another wine adjacent place. What were you up to while you were there?
Alison Van de Berghe:
I got there and I was working for Ogilvy & Mather, a large advertising agency, on their sustainability team. So they had a team called or still have called Ogilvy Earth, which we were working on basically building corporate narratives around sustainability. It was super interesting. Really, really interesting intro to marketing and PR, but with an advocacy element and with the sustainability element. And then after two and a half years there, I transitioned to Wagstaff Marketing, which was my intro to the hospitality industry. So that's where I started working in food, wine, restaurants, hotels. It was just diving straight on into the industry.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. What motivated the change to still stay in sustainability, but now lean more into food and wine?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was actually a little bit of a crisis for me just because I thought, "Do I really want to make my passion my full-time job?" I didn't want to ruin the way that I feel about the industry, but really now, it's like, "Welcome. You're never leaving." It's the best place ever. So I'm so happy that I made that change, even though at the time I was reticent, but it was really just because I'd been a foodie forever and I wanted to give it a try. And once I started, I just realized that there's just an unbelievable amount to explore, and then as I dived deeper into wine, still now seven years later, you can't stop. It's a lifelong learning lesson.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's amazing. What were some of the projects that you worked on while you were at Wagstaff?
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's what's so cool about working for an agency like that is that you get to touch so many different things. I worked for a few wineries up in Napa. We helped open a hotel in Palo Alto. We worked on a few openings in San Francisco itself, and then I also worked on some Michelin restaurants in South Bay.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, nice.
Alison Van de Berghe:
I worked with a chocolatier, Recchiuti, in the Ferry Building.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, I've been to that spot.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, of course you have.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's cool. I didn’t know you were behind that.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. There's just so many really great places and you just get to touch so many different kinds of concepts and operators.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, and SF and the Bay Area, it's so interesting because California is the dream for produce, at least in America, so it's really awesome to see the different scale at which wine world's connecting with farming, which is connecting with culinary stuff.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Right.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's awesome. But again, Bay Area wasn't enough. You had to sew your oats further south, so you head to Chile in 2019. And what were you up to while you were just outside of Santiago?
Alison Van de Berghe:
I moved down to Chile... When I was living in the Bay Area, I just really wanted to dive deeper into wine. I got a certification in wine, my WSET Level 2, which is the Wine & Spirit Education Trust. So you can basically become a sommelier or you can take the WSET route, which is very similar, but without the service element. WSET is more just pure wine knowledge. It's not about working in a restaurant. And when I did that, I loved it, but I wanted to actually go to a vineyard. I just felt like it was learning about the final product and I wanted to really fully immerse myself. So I did. So I went down to Chile and I worked on a binational. They were an American Chilean family. They own a vineyard down there, and it's female founded also-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... and sustainable, so it felt like a great fit and I just loved it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How did you decide to get those certifications to help you grow your knowledge in wine?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, I kind of do this when I love something. I just really dive in. Wagstaff also, the WSET was a client of Wagstaff. They compensated some of my studies and I went up to Napa. I studied for the two weeks prior. You have your books, and then I did it in two days. So you can either take every Monday for eight weeks with a test at the end, but I decided to study coming up to it and then take the two days in person, which ends with an exam. You try over 45 wines and you just-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Alison Van de Berghe:
...learn so, so much. I did feel like there is an element to the WSET and a lot of the very classic wine education that leaves out a lot of the more sustainable, organic, biodynamic, and natural practices that I really prefer in the wine world. That's where continuing your education outside of those traditional formats can sometimes be really powerful. It was really great to have that base knowledge, for sure.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Did you feel like over time, you started to pick up notes? Because I feel like just now, I am like, "Wow, I can taste plums in this and cherries in this," and that was a surprise to me, but I'm curious how you developed your palate as you were continuing to take these classes and take the courses.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. My parents really like wine also, so I think I was raised around it a little bit, but I've always had a remarkably strong sense of smell. My mom always joked since I was really little, and so she jokes actually that when I was born, she lost part of her sense of smell.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
She gave it to you.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And when you finish your WSET, they actually try to encourage you to purchase this box of... It's kind of like essential oils. There's 300 of them and you just pick them up and sniff them for memory recall.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Whoa.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So when you're saying that you're knowing those things, you love to bake and you love to cook, so you actually have a much better palate than you probably think.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Maybe I should get started. That could be my new thing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. Look, it's not that sommeliers or people who work in wine have an amazing sense of smell. Not at all. It's just that when we describe something and you can pick it back up, it's just because we're used to pulling forward that word. If I say, "Oh, it smells like plums," you're going to go, "Of course it smells like plums." But it's just that process of pulling it forward. You just have to practice it all day. When you start working in wine, you're sniffing your toothpaste and juices and just everything all the time.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So you keep working at this winery. You moved to Chile. What was it like culturally?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, for me, I've always really been an advocate of the underdog. So, Chile is not an underdog in the wine industry. They're one of the largest producers in the world, but they have 14 different wine regions. So, as a country, it's almost as long as the U.S. is wide and it's just perfect conditions up and down the middle of the country. There's no limit to how much wine you can try, and the coolest wines unfortunately rarely leave Chile because they're tiny. At least my favorites are these tiny cool producers, and they're just amazing, and it's the diversity of grapes too. The wines that leave Chile that we try are usually these big Bordeaux blends coming from some of the main regions south of Santiago, but my favorite ones are these weird little Riesling babies near the coast.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Love a Riesling.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Exactly. These little small guys that are so much more interesting.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, I feel like I've been more of a South African Riesling person, but I'm convinced that Chilean Rieslings are the move. The vineyard, what was it called again for those listening?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Kingston Family Vineyards.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So Kingston Family Vineyards, they also had a food program that you were a little bit a part of. What was that process like, combining the wine side and the food program?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was amazing. Essentially, I was the GM [general manager] of Kingston. I went down to be their marketing manager, and then the GM got pregnant, so I replaced her. It was just such a fascinating experience and so cool. And the food program was amazing. I got there right as we were opening this really beautiful tourism tasting room, and we had a really great tourism program, and we brought down really serious chefs. The chef when I first started, she now does special projects for Chef Dan Barber at Blue Hill At Stone Barns.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And then our second chef had worked at Noma. She's still in Copenhagen. But beyond that, our everyday chefs were these amazing Chilean chefs who, the produce in Chile is just out of this world.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I'm sure.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's all very organic, and so the food program there is amazing, and every day was just looking at how we're pairing, what other small pairings we can do, whether it's chocolate or cheese. We did three courses and five courses for lunch and dinner.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow, that was amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I feel like that must have opened up your palate and just opened up how you cooked as well-
Alison Van de Berghe:
Totally.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
...because it's like, "The wines right there. The food's right there."
Alison Van de Berghe:
Going to the farmer's market every week with the chef to look at the way that they were figuring out what they wanted to make just based on what was so fresh, I don't think I've ever lived in a place before where you're purchasing what's in season every single time.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, because that's all you have.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. I was there for a year and a half, and in the U.S., you go to the grocery store and you can buy whatever you want, but in Chile, you're only eating what's fresh, and that's an experience that totally blows your mind if you've never had that before.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What are some Chilean dishes that were local to that region?
Alison Van de Berghe:
They work a lot with corn. They have a lot of corn. Also, the size of their produce is amazing, and so there's this thing called pastel de choclo, which is a corn cake, I guess is the direct translation, and it has meat and corn and-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, it's like a savory cake.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, it's savory.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, okay.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Savory for sure. And then, Chile also has a lot of really beautiful ceviches. Of course, I lived on the coast, so all of the ceviche and pisco sours in addition to the amazing food and wine.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The best. Well, let's go big picture up. I know that one of your missions, which we'll talk about when we talk about your consulting company, is about making wine more accessible. So what's the current state of diversity in the wine industry right now?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's not great. It's not great. It's getting better, I think, I hope. Only 14% of California wineries have female winemakers.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Alison Van de Berghe:
If you can imagine, that's a pretty liberal place, so if you think about even getting outside of the U.S., how those numbers will decrease. I will say in the last few years, especially since 2020, I do think that there have been such an explosion of grants and scholarships. There are so many great companies like Black Wine Professionals, the Hughes Society, the Roots Fund. There are so many great opportunities now, but there's just such a long way to go.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. And what do you think those particular institutions are doing well that others can start paying attention to?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Just naming that we need to start working on this, and I think that the women at the core of these institutions are incredible, and they've gotten a lot of attention, which is great, but we just need to be putting more resources into making the industry more diverse.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. You not only have your wine certification, but you also have your agave spirits certification. I feel like we're in a agave spirits era. What inspired you to also get that certification, and what are you learning about the state of the agave world right now?
Alison Van de Berghe:
An important part of this is I split my time between here and Mexico City, so-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The best.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... it's the dream. I spent a few months in Oaxaca in 2021. It was kind of by accident that I really fell into the agave spirits world, but I just am obsessed with the culture of agave and agave spirits. I don't think that we grasp how profound it is in Mexican culture. Similarly to what I said to getting my wine certification, I just dove in. I wanted to learn about it and found a certification and got it. Well, it's again, a lifelong challenge to learn about agave spirits. It's such a beautiful industry. It's unbelievable how deep and how profound it is for Mexican culture.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, I did a tour in 2022, and it was amazing just how sustainable it is naturally, but it's hard too when there's so much demand. It's like, "How do you maintain the sustainability while also trying to sell and have this thing be another brand that's part of Mexican culture locally and globally as well?"
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, 100%. Replanting is everything. One of my mezcal clients, they are making their mezcal in Oaxaca from rainwater replanting initiatives, a lot of community initiatives. Also, we really want to be buying producer-made mezcal and just being wary of how we want to purchase in the U.S. There's not a ton of education on it, so you really have to rely on people that know more than you.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How would you like to see people be more educated as a regular consumer when they're thinking of purchasing mezcal?
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's such a great question, and just something that needs so much more attention to it. I think knowing what you don't know and being comfort... Same with wine. You need to befriend someone in your local wine store or befriend someone who knows about agave spirits and just trust that they can guide you in the right direction to purchase. We really want to be buying ancestral whenever possible, which is the most natural form of making mezcal, and if not artisanal, but small producers. I can't say it enough. Small producers for wine, small producers for... You want to be supporting people who are profit sharing with the mezcaleros. You don't really want to have this whole swooping in and you're just buying the product and selling it. You really want it to be a sustainable infrastructure with the mezcaleros.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Are there any particular mezcal or agave brands we should be looking out for?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Of course. My three favorites that I love to recommend, Yola, female, queer-owned, amazing. That's a great brand. Agua Mágica is another one. I first tried it at Cosme, so it's fantastic, and they, again, have really great community initiatives. And the last one is Neta. Neta is another really great brand where they are just working really hard to give back and the way that they're ingrained in their communities is very cool.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
For those of you who are listening, Cosme is Enrique Olvera of Pujol's restaurant in New York City. You started your own consulting brand, AVDB. What inspired you to transition from full-time to starting your own thing?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was not intentional. Actually, three years ago, I was on a plane to Australia to take a quick travel break.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Uh-oh.
Alison Van de Berghe:
How do you think that went?
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, you tell us.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And I was planning to come back to the States and I wanted to work at Airbnb Experiences and move back to San Francisco, and then fast-forward three years, obviously, a lot of that didn't happen. What happened was I came home. I was watching the industry pass away and I was unemployed. I'd left my job in the vineyard, and if I'd stayed, I would've lost my job, even just a few more weeks. And so I started to just freak out and reached out to a few different people to try to see what I could do, and one of those people was Elizabeth Tilton with Oyster Sunday. I just felt like she was doing great things to change the industry, and I wanted to get involved, and so I started consulting, and then I had a few other clients and kept consulting some social impact wine brands. I started working with Kevin Zraly. He's a wine educator.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, very cool.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Just doing what I could, and then it really just snowballed into a full-blown company without me realizing it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What's the mission behind AVDB?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. One of my favorite topics, so AVDB is a marketing and business development company where we work with social impact female and minority owned brands, so we specialize in marketing, PR, copywriting, newsletters, et cetera, partnership work for social impact, female and minority owned brands.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's amazing. What inspired you to go in that direction? I feel like you'd come out working for female owned brand, but it's one thing to really double down on that, especially as you're starting out a new brand.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Of course. I think it was always my natural inclination. When I look at my career and the women that inspired me and just the companies that I've always admired, those were the spaces they were in. I think also with my degree or working in sustainability, advocacy and some sort of making a greater meaning of it all has always been important to me. So I just realized that all of the people I were working for fell in those categories, and that's what I really wanted to do, and that's what lights me up. It gets me out of bed in the morning. Then once I put my stake in the ground, just people that care about that began to come to me, and so it just keeps flowing, really.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. You mentioned social impact, and I feel especially if you're plugged into the food world, it's one of those words that can actually bear fruit, where people are working on using these brands to change the dynamics of food, but sometimes it can also feel like another sticker to just make their brands seem more in touch or seem much more in touch with the times. How do you think about social impact when you're working with your brands and how do you try to bring that out of your clients and their work?
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's such a great question. There's a bunch of different ways to go about it. I would say my favorite brands to work with are brands before they're big, smaller brands that are trying to figure out who they are. And hopefully, if we're working together, we're mission aligned enough that they care about this too. And so it can be everything from encouraging partnerships with like-minded people or community initiatives, depends on what they're in. For example, the mezcal brand that we're working with, the way that they're approaching the rainwater collection and how they're giving back to their communities is amazing. There was a brand that I worked with, Chuflay, where my client was a diplomat, and the whole point of the brand was to provide more economic stability for mostly female winemakers in Bolivia.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So exporting those wines and working in that space was just so powerful, and I think it's everything from your ethos to your day-to-day actions, inclusivity to giving back, not necessarily in donations either, but in a way that's just meaningful in the communities that you're in.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Teach a man to fish versus give a fish.
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's exactly what the founder always used to say.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I want to talk to you a little bit more about PR and social media. So as you've been building out your consulting brand and thinking a lot about putting your brands out there, how do you think about social media in terms of the narrative that you want to spread?
Alison Van de Berghe:
"Necessary," I would say is probably the easiest way to put it, or the simplest way. Influencers changed the game, for sure. Obviously as we see Instagram developing its rules and changing its algorithms, that's a whole different conversation, but I would say that it's just a necessary presence with doing a lot of restaurant marketing too. That's where people go. That's how people are finding out about things. When I see friends on trips in a place I've never been, I'm marking my in Google Maps-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Same.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... all of the places that they're eating, if they're someone that I trust. So I just think it's an easy access and it's meeting consumers where they're already at because they're going to be online anyway, right?
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. I'm curious to hear, "How do you maintain a sense of sustainability while also giving influencers a chance to share about a restaurant?" Because I feel like we're now entering this era of de-influencing, or people are like, "Don't listen to influencers anymore."
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's tricky. I would say I have personally seen more influencers become less of a... They've moved away from a specific niche. For example, I've seen former food people become more wellness people or influencers become more into design in addition to food or just be more holistic. We're holistic people. If I was posting on my Instagram, and I'm not an influencer, it would have very diverse subjects of what I'm working with. The way that I talk about them specifically for work would really just be, I think, that influencers can reach new markets in a way that's effective, but beyond that, especially with... We do a lot of openings. When you work on openings, you really do want that skin of the room. Video content's really hard. They are creators. They're artists in their own way, and I'm not trying to do video content for my clients because I'm not going to be good at it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So someone has to pour the wine.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, exactly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, exactly. I want to talk a little bit more about the profiles of the clients you work with.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Sure.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Can you tell us about one or two clients that you're really excited about right now and the types of projects that you're working on?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. We don't have enough time in the day, but one of my recent new clients that I'm really excited about is a canned wine company, but it's different in that they are canning already known, very popular natural wines, and they're canning them for sustainability purposes. So using aluminum versus glass actually cuts CO2 emissions by 79%.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So the whole point is, first, you can drink less by drinking cans. You don't need to open a full bottle. Secondly, shipping is very expensive and bottles can be heavy. So the idea of working with aluminum is just really smart and creative. But that client, they're called Djuce Wines, D-J-U-C-E. Their whole thing is about breaking barriers. It's just about breaking glass, but it's also about making wine cool and not as pretentious. They partner with cool artists who design the cans in these beautiful ways.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, that's so exciting.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So it's a really refreshing, kind of a Gen Z approach to wine, but I think that's cool because we need to meet them, again, where they are.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. The Gen Z thing, because I feel like we're also entering the era of the sobriety movement, I would say. I feel like sobriety has already been prevalent, but I feel like in the last, I would say, year-
Alison Van de Berghe:
Totally.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
... more people are declaring that they're not drinking anymore. We're seeing more proliferations of mocktail menus at bars. People are thinking of different ways to not incorporate drinking. How does the wine industry think about that as well? Because I feel like you have to pay attention to consumer behavior, especially in that perspective.
Alison Van de Berghe:
You have to. I think there are a few different ways to look at it. The first would be that cans are exploding. I remember meeting with the canned wine company in 2020 who told me that their largest issue was finding cans because-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... everyone's canning things right now, and then smaller portions. For me, I do a lot of virtual tastings, and I don't want to open a bottle on a weeknight, and so if I have a can around that I can use, it's just so much easier. But secondly, I think that the wine industry needs to be prepared to have a shift. I think that outside of sobriety, a lot of younger generations, they really care about the, "Why?" These companies need to think about their farming practices, their sustainability, "What are they doing for the earth?", "What makes them a brand that you want to consume outside of their flavor?" I really think those things are super important. So I think that it's meeting younger generations interests in that way because, obviously, I share that, but I think that it's really important for brands to consider the, "Why?" of what they do, not just the actual physical product itself.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. I want to talk about the city guides that you've made. You've made these incredible city guides on your website. How do you think about travel as it intersects with your work?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's all research and development, baby, so just getting out there and trying everything. If you go back to how I mentioned studying international politics, it's just so important to keep moving. I'll always quote Bourdain and just talk about how you got to get out of your shoes and eat something different and go to a corner market and have someone cook you food in a place where you don't even know where you are and just get out there. I think that meeting people that way is just the most profound way to connect to a culture. That's wine, one. If you work in wine, that's something that you share with other wine people, but how can you understand food or market food or operators if you're not really grasping why they do what they do or their inspiration? And if you ask a chef their inspiration, it's sometimes that they've been abroad or where else they've worked or how else they've traveled, and you don't need to spend a million dollars either.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's amazing. Well, how do you hope that people continue to use your guides as they're traveling?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, we write them, and I have on my website that we write them with the intention of highlighting female and minority owned and also sustainable travel. We really work hard to rep brands that we really care about in that way. So I think it's just guiding people to not fall into tourist traps, not to spend too much money if they don't need to. You can go to amazing places and not do that, and just to be intentional in the way that they travel. For me, I'm the friend that I'm planning three meals ahead.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, same.
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's my love language, and that's important to me. But just giving people good options. Also, selfishly, when people were coming to Mexico City all the time and I couldn't bring them out to dinner. I was like, "Here's the list."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I have my Google Doc. I think I've sent it to 30 people.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, exactly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I'm just like, "I'm not there. This will work."
Alison Van de Berghe:
Exactly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Do what I did.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Exactly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I want to talk to you a little bit too about female entrepreneurship because I think it's so important. It's just so amazing to see the different stories and inspirations that get women to build the things that they're excited about. How have you found community in food and wine?
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's one of my favorite communities. I've been listening to Cherry Bombe for years. I've always tried to be very active in communities like Cherry Bombe or Pineapple Collaborative, or even there's a Facebook group called Women in Hospitality. That's actually how I met Elizabeth Tilton. Just thinking about all these groups that exist and going alone, just showing up. The other day, I was at a client wine tasting, and there was a woman that came alone, and I just went over and said, "Hi," and now we are chatting and went to a yoga class. That's how I work sometimes, and I think you just have to be inclusive and just keep showing up, and if you really care, one of my clients always jokes that, "Young people, especially in wine, we're so desperate for other young people in wine because it's such a strange and just esoteric place to work that we're desperate for these connections." So even last week, I was lucky enough to dine at Claude and I got to meet-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, it's such a great spot.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It was fantastic. 9:45 PM rez, but we got there.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's how you do it. Only New York.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Exactly. Great restaurant in New York, but the sommelier that was helping us, now we're on friends on Instagram because it's just when you find other young women that work in wine, I want to connect with all of them.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Something I love asking on the podcast is who people are inspired by. It's always nice to know, "Who is motivating you to change the future?"
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, in the wine space particularly, Jancis Robinson was really the original woman in wine. She was in the industry when there were no women in wine, and it inspires me to see trailblazers like that, for sure. On a personal level, there have just been a lot of women in my career that have encouraged me or inspired me. One of my first managers at Ogilvy, Evie Morales, she was really the first person that I saw outside of the corporate world go and do her own thing. We reconnected two years ago when I started to do this too, and it just felt like we had so much to bond over. I know I keep mentioning Elizabeth, but Elizabeth was one of my first partners in working in this space almost three years ago. Bevan Bunch is another partner who I work with. She works at New Deal Hospitality on the West Coast. I sent her a cold email and she just has been such a great friend and partner since, and then sounds cliche, but my mom.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Not at all. Mom's are the best.
Alison Van de Berghe:
She's the best. And even last night, I'm like, "Mom, I can't believe I'm going to be on Cherry Bombe," and she's just like... She listens to Cherry Bombe every week. She's listened to it every week for years.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow. That's amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Sharing this with her, the culture aspect. She lived in Mexico City for years. She speaks a few languages and just is such an interesting and fantastic person. She's so humble, so kind.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Shout out to the moms. Moms make it happen.
Alison Van de Berghe:
We love them.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, you brought up Mexico City, which I feel like is our connecting point. So remember our first friend date in Mexico City? So you've been in Mexico for two years. Why Mexico City?
Alison Van de Berghe:
I came back from Chile due to the pandemic and came back home to the Northeast. I just was dying and itching to get back to Latin America. I really love it down there, and Mexico is much closer than Chile. Also, a place that I can work a little bit easier than Chile. It's just so far away. It is just filled with such beautiful culture. I feel so strongly about how all the corners of Mexico and the history of Mexico is just absolutely insane. And like I mentioned, my mom lived there when she was in her 20s and grew up with all these Frida in the house and all these different things that I didn't realize were so Mexican until now. It's just such a happy place, happy people, incredible hospitality. It really is one of the best cities, I think, in the world to eat and drink. It's just an amazing place.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Can you tell us a little bit about the state of food and hospitality in Mexico City now?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, of course. It's only blowing up. It keeps growing and growing and growing. A lot of people obviously have moved to Mexico City in the last few years, but beyond that, I can't even believe it. When I was gone for a month last summer, and when I came back, there were two new restaurants on my block alone. It's amazing to see the expansion and also the diversity. Last week, a Jewish deli opened.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yes. A friend of the pod, Zoe Kanan was working on it.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah, Mendel, and so seeing that open, but then also there's just really great restaurants development besides these to-go concepts. It's endless. I have friends come into town and they're like, "Oh, have you been here?" And I've never heard of it.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. I feel like there's been this great debate too about , "It's becoming more culturally recognized globally," and that's causing this whole debate, especially with a lot of locals, in terms of, "It's great that we're getting this influx in our economy, but at the same time, it's affecting how Mexican culture's being perceived, rents, gentrification, all that stuff." How do you think food is helping or hurting that part of the debate?
Alison Van de Berghe:
That's a big question. Mexican food will never, ever go away.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
No way.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's the most amazing thing. I mentioned these concepts just now, a pizza concept or a Jewish deli, which are amazing, and they're going to land really well with certain demographics, but the expansion of other Mexican concepts, if you look at Enrique Olvera's story when he's on Chef's Table, he talks about how he came back from abroad and tried to open this really high end restaurant, and he felt like he was forcing it. And when he started making authentic Mexican food, that's when he really shone, and then now that's Pujol. Food, in terms of the global economy, I don't think that there's a way that it can really compete in terms of how strong Mexican culture is, but it really can just add. I think that it will hopefully just continue to just be more equal spaced and more diversity.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Totally.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Because even when my mom lived there, when she came to visit, I brought her to my favorite pastry shop, and my mom just couldn't even believe that there were all these amazing pastries in Mexico City because when she lived there, besides the choncas, a very traditional Mexican pastry, there weren't as many. And there's just such an expansion and influence in the global food scene in Mexico City, which I think is great because I don't think that it will ever interrupt how strong the Mexican culture is.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, you are about to join all the restaurants and wine bars in Mexico City, and you have a really exciting project that you're opening soon. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. I am partner owner of a new restaurant wine bar that's called Niv. So vin backwards, so V-I-N. It's N-I-V.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's genius.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And we are opening officially on Saturday, March 4th. I am so excited. This is my 13th opening that I've worked on in my career.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And it's yours now.
Alison Van de Berghe:
The first one where actually I'm partner/owner and I can't be more excited. It feels surreal.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. After all the learnings you've taken, what inspired you to now make this your own thing?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, I was brought into the project with a few other owners and partners, so I wasn't there from the inception, but I think as time went on, they saw that wine bars have been really my specialty. I think this is the fourth that I've worked on-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, exciting.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... and obviously the wine background, so it was just the right time and the right place, honestly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. If you could describe the mood board or the inspiration behind the menu and the wine program, what are you hoping that that guests will feel and expect when they walk in?
Alison Van de Berghe:
So the wines are really beautiful and traditional. I would say that there's a lot of French wines, Italian wines, but we also have a lot of Mexican wines too, which I think is very important when you're opening a concept. If I'm at a restaurant in Mexico and there's a big wine list and no Mexican wines, to me, that's a big red flag. Also, it's very affordable, which I think is super important. And speaking of Sartoria, which is a really fantastic Italian spot in Roma Norte in Mexico City, our chef used to work there.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, so cool.
Alison Van de Berghe:
The space will also be used a lot for pop-ups. The chef is very eager to have residencies, so we're really hoping to have different, whether it's a winemakers, "Come and do a dinner," or for example, my mezcal client could come and do a popup, or we can have a weekend or a week where a chef comes from another place and can join us. So I think that's really exciting. Same thing with art. We did some popups for Art Week, which was a few weeks ago in Mexico City, and just feeling like the vibe can shift in there, not only from the food and wine perspective, but also from the actual physical space is just... I'm so excited. It feels like the opportunities are endless.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's amazing. What were some places or things that inspired you as you were building out this space?
Alison Van de Berghe:
The center feature of the bar is this really beautiful semicircle. So when you walk in, there's this really beautiful marble looking semicircle, and then the walls are this really soft green. We have some greens and oranges in the inside. One of my best friends did the interior design, which is amazing.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And so it just feels really soft. I love how it really blends this feeling of these feminine and masculine tones on the inside. It's just really beautiful. And then in the back room, we actually have a speakeasy. So the front is this bar and restaurant, and in the back, we're going to have vinyl and mezcal and candle lit, and it's a completely different room.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
You're speaking my language. I'm going to become a regular.
Alison Van de Berghe:
I'm so excited.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I'm excited. Well, I feel like you're the expert on Mexico City, and I feel like I've gotten such great recs from you, and I feel like Mexico City's a spot that a lot of people are heading to. What are three favorite spots that you're loving right now?
Alison Van de Berghe:
I have my forever favorites, but then I have... It changes on a weekly basis. I would say they're three that I'm consistently extremely loyal to, the first is Elly's.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yes.
Alison Van de Berghe:
So Elly Fraser, she is a friend. She's actually from New York. She has a really, really beautiful restaurant in Juárez. And the team there is just fantastic. The former beverage director is a very good friend, and just they make you feel like home and the food is always fantastic. The second place would be Saint, the one I just mentioned before, amazing pastries. I love seeing a space like that pop up in Mexico. It's just seeing how they have both Mexican inspired things and very French inspired pastries coexist is very beautiful and the quality's amazing. And then the third would be Loup, which is my favorite natural wine bar. It's fantastic. And the team, they really make you feel like home, and there's just always new stuff there that excites me so much. I saw a bottle there a few weeks ago that was from a small vineyard I stopped in last summer in Burgundy, and I just can't even believe that it made it to Mexico, and I was so excited. So Loup and Joaquin is the chef there, and the food is incredible too.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, those are all great spots. They both encompass Mexico City and how cosmopolitan it really is.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I want to go back to the bar stuff again. It's not an easy task to open a bar, I'm sure.
Alison Van de Berghe:
No.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What were some challenges and also the triumphs that came?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Yeah. Well, I think that's something that's so crazy about being on the operator side and not just helping with marketing like I have in the past with openings is there's just so many details. You could spend hours and hours thinking about the faucets and the doorknobs and the hooks under the bar and how to make it feel both comfortable and efficient and hiring and there's just so many things to think about. It's really a challenge. I think from the triumphs, I feel really strongly about how great our team is. Our team is just amazing. Our GM was the former Director of Food and Beverage at Pujol-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
... and she's amazing. I'm so happy it's a woman also. And-
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Nice.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And then some of the challenges, I would just say are timelines. Similar with all the openings I've been working on recently, everything is delayed. Just keep getting more and more delayed. But I think we did a really good job and we pushed it a little bit. The Art Week popups, we didn't do food. We just did limited wine and two cocktails just to get people in the space, and I'm glad that we did that, even though at the time it felt like we were nowhere near ready.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How are you hoping that Niv fits into the greater Mexico City food and restaurant scene? And then how are you hoping to see the food scene in Mexico City transform in the next five to 10 years?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Our staff is just amazing at Niv, so I feel really excited that they come from such great backgrounds and they're all... Our bartender, Joxan, he's just amazing. Also, our chef, Diego. The whole team is great. I hope that we can provide a new space for people to come. The other huge benefit is one of our partners also has an import company, so our pricing for our wines are really reasonable because we don't have that middleman. The wine pricing is really great, which I feel really excited about because there are other wine bars that can get really pricey in Mexico City. So it's more accessible, which I love. I really want the wine culture to increase in Mexico City. It is. It's on its way, and there's amazing wine coming out of Valle de Guadalupe, like you mentioned.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yes.
Alison Van de Berghe:
And I really want more people to see that. I want more people to be drinking Mexican wine, so I think that's important and to your second question about the growth of the Mexican restaurant scene, I think that is the increase of access to wine, or lower prices to wine, but also just bringing more people down to see how amazing it is. They don't need any more marketing. Mexico City is just doing just great.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
It's done enough.
Alison Van de Berghe:
It's doing just great. But I think it's just people seeing how beautiful it is and appreciating how complex and just culturally rich the Mexican food scene is.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Alison, we're about to do our fun Future of Food is You tradition. We're calling it the Future Flash Five. The future of wine bars?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Great.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The future of hospitality?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Improving.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The future of sustainable travel?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Challenging.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The future of women in wine?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Inspiring.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The future of vineyards?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Sustainable.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Well, Alison, thanks for having this amazing conversation with us. I've learned so much about wine, Mexico City, hospitality. If we want to keep supporting you, where are the best places to find you?
Alison Van de Berghe:
Well, my company is called AVDB, which is challenging, but it's actually my initials. We are on the socials, avdbco. That's our Instagram, and then our website's actually the same. It's avdb.co. C-O, no M. My email is Alison, A-L-I-S-O-N, @avdb.co. My Instagram is @Alisonvdb, so it's the theme here.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
We love it. We love the good name. Amazing.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Thanks so much.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Before we go, our guest is going to leave a voicemail at The Future Of Food Is You mailbox, just talking to themselves 10 years from now. You have reached The Future Of Food Is You mailbox. Please leave your message after the beep.
Alison Van de Berghe:
Hi, future Al. Taking a moment to leave your voicemail on Cherry Bombe's podcast. Can you believe it? I hope that wherever you are, you can take a moment to pause and feel deep gratitude for where you've been and where you are now. I hope that you can feel gratitude for the women who have inspired you along the way, who have gone out of their way to help you from the kindness of their hearts. Gratitude for how hard you've worked, not only in what we call work, but also for yourself, your mental health, your physical body, and for the strong relationships and friendships you have around you. I also hope that you feel gratitude for the missteps along the way that were really just steps. Lastly, I hope that by the time you're listening to this podcast 10 years from now, there will be less of a need to add the word female before the word founder or winemaker or chef or otherwise, and that the industry will see everyone for who they really are, which is just someone who is great at their trade.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's it for today's show. Do you know someone who you think is the future of food? Tell us about them. Nominate them at the link in our show notes, or leave us a rating and a review and tell me about them in the review. I can't wait to read more about them. Thanks to Kerrygold for sponsoring the show. Visit kerrygoldusa.com for more. The Future of Food is You as a production of the Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thanks to the team at City Box Studios, executive producers, Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and associate producer, Jenna Sadhu. Catch you on the future flip.