Aran Goyoaga Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature.
Today, I'm joined by the incredibly talented Aran Goyoaga. Aran is one of the leading experts in gluten-free baking, and you probably know her from her blog, Cannelle et Vanille, her bestselling cookbooks, or her gorgeous photography and styling that fill her Instagram feed. Aran has been on the show before, and I'm so excited to have her back to tell us all about her brand new book, “The Art of Gluten-Free Bread: Groundbreaking Recipes for Artisanal Breads and Pastries.” Aran and I talk about her childhood in Spain and her grandparents' bakery across the street from her home, her favorite treat from the bakery when she was little…Spoiler alert, the brioche buns filled with cream, her introduction to bread baking in culinary school and about creating gluten-free bread recipes, and how doing so differs from creating recipes for gluten-free pastry and other sweets. Then we do a deep dive into her gluten-free rosemary focaccia recipe. I learned so much from Aran about gluten-free baking in this episode. I cannot wait for you to listen. Stay tuned for our chat. You can find today's recipe at Cherry Bombe’s Substack.
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Let's chat with today's guest. Aran, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie again and to talk gluten-free rosemary focaccia with you, and so much more.
Aran Goyoaga:
I'm so excited to be here, Jessie. Thank you for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, your maternal grandparents had a pastry shop in Bilbao that they opened in 1949 in the Basque Country, that's where Bilbao is, where you grew up, and you lived across the street. Can you recall an early memory of a baked good that you ate at the bakery or elsewhere?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I mean one of the most traditional breakfast foods in the Basque Country, especially in the Bilbao area, they're known for that is Bollos de Mantequilla. They're brioche buns that are filled with a buttercream. It's not like American buttercream, but it is a buttercream that's a little bit lighter.
Probably, if anybody would ask what I remember from childhood, what I would want to eat, it's the iconic pastry from then. And I mean, I can't eat it now, but yeah, when I go home, everybody wants to eat that.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that the one that you would've dunked in warm milk every day for breakfast?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, give me.
Aran Goyoaga:
You eat it for breakfast with milk, and sometimes even I think when we were young, I don't want to say babies, but probably teenagers, we probably had a splash of coffee in there. I'm sure we did. And then you also can eat it after meals as merienda, which is in Spain. Merienda is almost like tea time in England, which is like a four or five o'clock snack that you eat. I mean, I feel like it's all hours of the day. You can eat one of those.
Jessie Sheehan:
I certainly would if I had the opportunity. So, you thought it was normal, I love this, to have a pastry shop in the family, and you went to the bakery before school, I read, to go get baguettes maybe for your family.
Aran Goyoaga:
My family didn't make bread, so it was only a pastry shop. And in pastry shops, they make pastries but also viennoiserie. So there is yeast products, but they're enriched sweet yeast products like brioche and croissants and things like that. So in most of Europe, I mean, at least in France and Spain, where there's kind of a French tradition, you have the bread bakery, where you go get bread, and then you have the pastry shop where you get maybe more sweets.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, would you be going to the bread bakery for your family, getting baguette, bringing them home-
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then going across the street to the pastry shop to have a little milk dip?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes, exactly. That's how it was.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. I love it.
Aran Goyoaga:
Actually, we had a bread van, so you had the bakeries, but then there was if you lived maybe in a street that didn't have a bakery, or I remember close to our school, which was maybe a 10-minute walking distance from my home, and there was no bakeries on that street.
At 1:00 PM, when we were still in school, we could hear the bread van come. It was like a Citroën Four. I don't know if any of the listeners don't know what that is, but it's one of those traditional French little minivans and they would have baguettes in the back in paper bags and then people would come out in the street and buy it right there.
That's probably my first bread memory and bread smell. I do remember the smell of that. It was 1:00 PM usually, and we got out of school at 1:30, so it was always like we were starving. And then the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Would you go to the van just with, or would that mostly be your parents would have bread at home?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I was probably five or six at that school, so I didn't have any money. I didn't carry money, but I was always waiting for somebody to just cut a piece of baguette and hand it to me.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you would also go back to the pastry shop after school and do homework and hang out, because your whole family was working there, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins. Were your mom and dad baking or just your mother's parents were baking?
Aran Goyoaga:
So, my maternal grandparents opened it in 1949. It's still in the family and my cousins worked there. My dad was an engineer. My dad was an engineer by day, and an oil painter by night.
So, I feel like my mom's side of the family gets all the credit because they are the bakers. But my dad's side of artists and farmers are also a big influence on me. I was a closeted artist.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I was just thinking of your photography. It makes sense that you have this beautiful eye and this art that you do, that's camera, whereas he was using the oil paints.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, and the photography in this book, in “The Art of Gluten Free Bread,” is really an homage to my father's... He has these, I don't know what the name in English is, dodegón, which are still lives I guess, of food and darkness kind of painting, like a style that he has.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was your mom, so she wasn't baking, she was behind the-
Aran Goyoaga:
Front of the house, yes. So, my grandparents had eight children. My mom was the oldest, and so she, at 14, she started working.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Aran Goyoaga:
I'm sure she was even helping when she was younger, but at 14 she started working. She had to work helping younger siblings plus working in the pastry shop. So everybody, not my father, he was an engineer like I said, but everybody on my mom's side worked there.
And then the men, so she had, I have three uncles and my grandfather, so four men were in the pastry kitchen, which is also another thing that I never questioned when I was younger. But now, in hindsight, it kind of makes sense that women cooked always at home. And then when it was professionally, it was mostly men. And I don't think it was intentional. I think it was sort of a cultural thing that nobody questioned, but that's another story.
So all the women worked, my grandmother, my aunt worked front of the house. My mom, my grandmother always had an apron on, men always had an apron on in my family. Everybody I feel like had an apron on, and they would walk outside.
My grandmother, when she was done with her little chores or she was taking a break, she would walk to the front of the store, and she would hang out outside and just watch people walk by. And she knew everybody. Her name was Miran and people just would walk by and say, "Hi Miran." And then she would invite them inside and everybody was talking to each other and it was always pastries and it was such a...
Jessie Sheehan:
Gathering place.
Aran Goyoaga:
... gathering place, and I think that's why I love having people at my house because it reminds me... It's like the only way that I really know how to and that's what I grew up watching, that kind of environment of gathering. And my grandmother, I felt like she built a really safe space.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. We're having a short snack break with California Prunes, who helped make this episode possible. I always have a stash of prunes in my pantry because there's so much they can do. I love that prunes can satisfy your sweet tooth while being good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper, and antioxidants to support healthy bones. Wellness trends may come and go, but prunes aren't going anywhere, so why not chop up some prunes this weekend to fold into your favorite oatmeal cookie recipe. In mine, I combine them with M&Ms and potato chips for a cookie that has everything you'd ever want. It's chewy, crunchy, salty, sweet, just talking about them makes me realize I need a cookie right now. Prunes are also a great natural sweetener in baking recipes. If you need any tips on sweetening with prunes, check out all the different ideas and recipes at the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org, and I've got the inside scoop on a sweet contest our friends at California Prunes are hosting. Share your favorite recipe using California Prunes, whether it's an elaborate bake or a simple snack, for the chance to score hundreds of dollars in gift cards, kitchen gear, and swag. Just post your creation on Instagram or TikTok and tag @CAPrunes and @NoCrumbsLeft to enter. The contest runs from October 27th through November 17th. So get baking, get snacking, and good luck.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everybody, it's Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder of Cherry Bombe and the host of Radio Cherry Bombe. In case you hadn't heard, Cherry Bombe is on Substack. If you're a Substack lover like me, be sure to check it out and subscribe. You can subscribe for free or become a monthly or annual paid subscriber. Each Saturday, we post a recap of She's My Cherry Pie plus all the fun baking news of the week. We also have recipes, the Cherry Bombe Friday newsletter, and special features from Cherry Bombe's print magazine, like the Missy Robbins cover story from our Italy issue. If you're new to Substack, think about it as the home of modern blogs. If you love reading, writing, and recipes, it's the place for you. Visit cherrybombe.substack.com.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, back to our guest. So, I wanted to talk about your introduction to gluten-free bread and your diagnosis. You write that pastry chefs considered this refined work. It's not like making rustic bread, which is for bakers, and as you wrote, your grandfather occasionally baked bread for the family. You described, it's not my word, but you say it's unremarkable, because bread was something that you bought, you didn't make it. So really, your introduction to bread was culinary school.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about that, about beginning to bake bread and I guess was that when you fell in love with it?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I love bread since I was a kid, and if I could, I would only eat bread. But when I started culinary school, we had a bread quarter, as we called it, and my chef instructor, Manfred Schmidtke, who I'm still in touch with, he was a German master baker, and so I learned from him.
And I was not gluten-free yet, and so I had an amazing bread quarter with him, and then I worked at the Ritz-Carlton in Palm Beach as a pastry chef. I was only in the pastry department, but we shared the pastry kitchen with the bread department and we overlapped. When I worked night shifts, we overlapped for a couple hours, and the head baker was Johann Willar.
I don't know where he is now, but I think about him often, because I wish he could taste my breads and see what he thinks, but he was amazing. I learned a lot from watching him. But I never actively worked with that team, which is kind of one of my big regrets.
So when I started working on this book, it's not like I came from a deep bread tradition either. I mean, of course, I knew viennoiserie, and I had made bread before, but it wasn't like I was a master bread baker myself.
I feel like I had to tackle bread mastery and also make it gluten-free at the same time, which I think it was probably to my benefit. Because I wasn't maybe... My brain wasn't wired to think a certain way and I was really focused more on these other flour that I had to work with. Rather than trying to focus on having really open crumb or that to be the goal, which is not always possible with gluten-free flours.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted to briefly talk about the choice to go to culinary school because it came late. I mean, it came after going to college and being in the corporate world essentially. Does that mean that through all of that you were always baking and fiddling on the side, so that then when you lost your job, it made sense to go to culinary school? Or how did that decision come to be?
Aran Goyoaga:
Some of that I baked at home when I was a teenager. I never even thought that that could be a profession for me. I graduated university, I moved to the U.S. I worked in the corporate world for a bit. I even went back to finish a masters, so I have an MBA.
And then I came back to the U.S. and I worked in corporate world a couple more years until September 11th happened, and then my husband and I got laid off at the same time. He was working for a startup, I was working for a big corporation. He had a job opportunity in Florida, and so we moved to Florida.
And my grandfather died the same day I got laid off and I decided I'm going to go to culinary school, because when I moved away from home, I think baking at home in the U.S. became a way to remember my family or a connection, and I talked to my mom about recipes. And I would ask her like, "Oh, do you remember how..." My teté, which was my grandfather, "Used to make the lemon tarts?" Or things... We would have conversations about food and our family business.
And so when we moved to Florida, I told my husband's like, I think I want to pursue this as a career. I didn't really know what that meant, but I just gave it a shot and I went to a culinary program that was two years. Then while I was going to school in Florida, I started working in different restaurants.
I was living in Palm Beach County in Florida, so I was working in that area. Then I ended up at the Ritz-Carlton, and then I had babies and then I quit the professional kitchen. So, that was my trajectory. It was all kind of fast.
Jessie Sheehan:
I just want to jump back for a second. What were you baking when you were a teenager?
Aran Goyoaga:
I was baking a lot. I remember flan was a big thing. I used to make this apple flan. I used to make a lot of cheesecake, very simple things because my parents... Our kitchens in Europe are small. We don't have a ton of equipment. It's funny because I had all the equipment across the street, and very homey things like plum cakes and things like that.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, different than what they were selling across the street.
Aran Goyoaga:
Exactly, there were no cheesecakes across the street. There were no flans. It was very traditional French pastry with puff pastry, Napoleons, and mille-feuilles, and eclairs, and things like that.
Jessie Sheehan:
I read something interesting that it was your diagnosis that indicated that you needed to have a gluten-free diet. Not only did it ignite this professional path of these gluten-free cookbooks for you and gluten-free baking, but it also ignited a drive to teach others about gluten-free cooking and baking. Tell me about that.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, it's funny because I have different facets that I love to explore, during some times I love being a photographer. Other times I felt like sponsored content. I've gone through different iterations of my career, and what I've really realized is that I am a teacher, and I love teaching people.
When somebody comes to me with questions about my recipes, I get the greatest joy, honestly, when I can help them troubleshoot it so they can master it. Because I want everybody that makes my recipes to feel like they have it, and that they master it and that they understand it.
And so when I became gluten-free 15 years ago, I feel like there weren't any resources really, and the resources there were, it was people who maybe came to it out of necessity, but they weren't trained chefs or trained bakers. So, they were winging it.
And so I love that I came from this tradition of knowledge and work experience in that world that I could help people navigate that a little bit easier. Also, I was learning myself while I was doing this, because, of course, there's my initiation into it. But I felt like I grabbed people along the way, like, "Okay, let's go. Let's do this." At the bottom of it all really, I'm a teacher.
Jessie Sheehan:
You've said that gluten-free pastry, making a cake, etc., is easy compared to making gluten-free bread, you can't even really compare them. Why is that?
Aran Goyoaga:
Because when you're making cakes and cookies and tarts to some extent, you're actually trying to minimize gluten production. When you're making a cake, you want a product that's tender. With cookies, you want tender cookies, although sometimes gluten does help with spread and chew in cookies, so sometimes it can be a little bit helpful. But you definitely don't want to have lots of it or manipulate a ton that you're going to have these elastic strands through your tender banana bread.
In tarts, sometimes you do need a little gluten, you're trying to have flakiness, so then you need a little lamination and that so it doesn't become just a crumbly mess. There's a fine balance within even those pastry items like what you can get away and not. But bread is realized absolutely on gluten because gluten, so it's a protein in wheat flour and other grains, but we're going to talk wheat flour, that when you hydrate and you manipulate, so the more you need it and more it develops.
You create these elastic, rubber band-like strands that when you have fermentation, so gas production, they expand without breaking and trap air, trap gases. So, that's what gives you your open crumb. If you don't have those elastic rubber band strands, then the gases that are produced are going to escape, and so you're going to end up with something that doesn't rise at all.
That's why these two things are so different because in one, you're really trying to minimize just its influence, and the other one you're trying to maximize it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, I think this is some of the copy that's on the book cover or maybe in the inside flap, but it says that you've brought this global attention to gluten-free baking due to your ability to create these gluten-free breads that are full of texture and flavor. They rival their wheat-based counterparts.
And my question is how are you able to... Where are you researching to learn how much starch you need and what starch contributes to bread versus the flours and why sorghum? Why buckwheat? How literally did you learn that?
Aran Goyoaga:
By doing it.
Jessie Sheehan:
But did you have to read it somewhere to know it was even an option? And are they science books you read or-
Aran Goyoaga:
No science books. The first time I ever heard about psyllium husk, not even powder, it was through Dan Lepard, who is a bread baker in the U.K. who is not even gluten-free, and I don't even know in what context. I think it was a radio interview, because at the time, I only knew of xanthan gum as a binder in gluten-free bread or anything.
And so I quickly started researching about it, and Shauna James-Ahern was a gluten-free girl, really OG blogger, and she was making gluten-free things, and so I feel like I had a conversation with her about Dan Lepard and psyllium husk, and so that's another person who I was like, okay, someone else has heard about psyllium. This is probably like 2012 or 2011. So, that was like the initiation about understanding that there's fibers beyond xanthan gum that can help you with binding.
And then as far as different grains, I actually was familiar with a lot of gluten-free grains because we did use them in pastry in combination with wheat flour. So, buckwheat was something that we used a lot, millet. I think teff I had worked with before, not so much amaranth or quinoa, so I had that influence already or knowledge already, and the flavors, what they were.
I found Naomi Devlin, but she lives in the U.K. She used to work for River Cottage and she wrote a River Cottage gluten-free book, and she had a sourdough starter in it that was a brown rice sourdough starter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us what River Cottage is?
Aran Goyoaga:
Oh, River Cottage is a cooking school in the U.K., and they have a series of books they do like charcuterie books, jam books, “River Cottage Every Day,” and so it's like a Ballymaloe Cooking School.
So, through Naomi, I discovered, oh, so you can make sourdough starters with gluten-free grains. And then I think I tried... She had a sourdough loaf recipe in her book and then that gave me an understanding of how psyllium works. I think I had tried it before I made her sourdoughs.
So when I heard it from Dan, I probably tried it in some capacity, but I don't have a very clear memory of that. But I do remember when I made the sourdough starter in 2015 or so, that was a whole other avenue that opened up that was using sourdough starter and breads.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, that's such a great intro into my next questions, because we're going to talk about the book, which is beyond beautiful and special as one would expect from Aran. The heart of the book is making and working with these gluten-free sourdough starters to make these artisanal loaves and rolls and baguettes and sourdough bagels.
You teach us how to grow a gluten-free sourdough starter. Yeah, you blew my mind with this information about psyllium, because you say that it's the ingredient that makes or breaks gluten-free bread. You call it the star. Talk to us about how it, this is a little sciencey, so sorry, peeps, but I think it's interesting. I think you will too.
I actually think I heard you talk about this with Dan Souza in your podcast interview for America's Test Kitchen. You were talking about gluten being a balloon, or maybe he was, and psyllium can play that role or absorbs water. Explain that to us.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah. So, gluten becomes like a rubber band, and so it can stretch. And what happens when you're fermenting and also baking is the gases from fermentation and then the leavening that happens through oven spring, when it rises, all these gases and all the steam gets pushed up, and then when you have... It's like a hot air balloon that it traps the hot air and then it rises. So, the same thing happens with gluten bread that it just expands and opens, but it doesn't crack. I mean it cracks, but you have to score anyway, but yeah, it expands and then you got this beautiful crumb.
So what psyllium does, you need a binder, something that's going to give you a little bit of structure. Psyllium is not going to be exactly the rubber band that gluten is. It doesn't expand the same way, but it's a fiber that absorbs tons of water.
So, when you're making bread... It's different if you're making a cookie or something that doesn't have a lot of moisture in it, but when you're making bread for you to feel like this dough is moist and bouncy, I guess, you need to have a lot of water.
Like xanthan gum doesn't absorb a lot of water, but psyllium does. Using psyllium gives you a dough very... It will feel familiar to you when you touch it. It'll feel like you can knead it, you can shape it. Unlike when you make doughs with xanthan gum, they feel more like cake batter, and they need a little bit more of a vessel, like a cake pan or something like that.
That's why as a starter, it allows you to really provide structure and bind in a dough while absorbing lots of moisture, which means that you're going to be able to have a moist crumb that has a little bit more open crumb than with xanthan gum.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, was that revolutionized gluten-free baking when people realized that actually psyllium husk is a better product than xanthan gum? I think you also mentioned xanthan gum can have additives and maybe isn't the one you want to use anyway. But in addition to that, psyllium husk just works so much better.
Aran Goyoaga:
I mean, some people are sensitive to psyllium because it's fiber, so it's like depending on digestion, it can be maybe just too strong, but most people, it's actually beneficial. Psyllium is actually the main ingredient, and I don't know if this is going to get edited out, but it's like when you need to go to the bathroom for constipation, and you go to the pharmacy or the store-
Jessie Sheehan:
Like Metamucil?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, so I think it's psyllium that's in there. You can just buy psyllium to help give you fiber in your diet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's so interesting.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, it's actually, it's-
Jessie Sheehan:
It's really good for you.
Aran Goyoaga:
... really healthy. Yeah, really healthy. Xanthine gum is a bit more of a chemical product. It's not very easy to digest. For some people it becomes kind of glue-like, and so I try to minimize the use of it. But sometimes, in the croissants, for example, when you need to be able to not only ferment a dough, stretch it, you really need to have something extra.
Jessie Sheehan:
I want to jump into the recipe, but I had just had two more things I wanted to mention. First of all, the book, we touched on the photography and the influence of your dad that's in the photography, but it is so beautifully photographed, Aran, and I don't even think I asked you about this last time we chatted on the pod. But when did you realize you were an incredible photographer?
Aran Goyoaga:
You're so sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
But was that just after you were working professionally and you stopped working because of the kids and you started to blog, etc., you just started taking pictures of things and realized you loved it?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes, exactly how it happened.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Aran Goyoaga:
I've always been a very visual person. I actually struggled very much with writing my books, not the technical writing, but technical writing is easy, but the creative writing or storytelling is very difficult for me. I knew what I wanted visually. I didn't always know how to get it, so I had to learn how a camera works, what exposure is, how to find light. I had to learn those things, but I think I knew I had a style, let's say. Or my father was always looking at how light was hitting things or how to frame landscapes.
So as a child, I was surrounded by art books, and so I think that came natural to me. I just had to learn the technical parts of it. As soon as I started blogging, I realized it's not only about the recipes that I'm sharing, it's also the visual component. When we all started blogging, it was kind of like we were a little publishing house, each one of us. I mean, terrible. We probably all needed editors, but I think it forced us to really hone and understand all the hats that a publishing house wears, which I loved, and photography was a big part of it.
I've been hired as a photographer in the past and I have shot other people's books, but I have realized that, and this is not a humble thing, but I do think that, and I don't want to sell myself short, but I am a good photographer for myself because I know what I want and I love that. I love that I'm keeping for me, and I'm not trying to be a photographer. I've come to terms with that. I think at the end, I just want to be a teacher, but I love photography and I appreciate it very much, and I love cookbooks for that reason.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, the book is just gorgeous. Finally, tell us about the residency at America's Test Kitchen.
Aran Goyoaga:
Oh my gosh. And you're from Boston so-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I know. Yes, yes, yes.
Aran Goyoaga:
It's a dream, honestly, because I've been such a fan. I feel like America's Test Kitchen has taught Americans how to cook in a very practical way. It has this side of science without being too sciencey, and it inspires people to cook. So, when they approached me to be part of this editor-in-residence cohort, I was super excited. It came out at a perfect time. I had just finished my book, which meant I have time to really create more recipes and share with them, and it's a totally different process where I'm also letting myself be informed by their history.
They have 14,000 recipes in their archives, I think. I'm almost like melting into America's Kitchen a little bit and trying to learn from them too, and also bring them a little bit of my gluten-free experience. It's really such a generous environment, honestly, and anybody that's listening, if you can trust your recipe, it's from America's Test Kitchen. I'm telling you, it's tested a thousand times.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was just going to say, I mean, it is practical. They teach, but if you're in the industry, you turn to them. If I'm developing something and I'm wondering what other people have done, I always go to America's Test Kitchen to see how they did it.
I'm not necessarily going to take too much from what they did in the sense that sometimes there are a lot of different steps and I tend to try to simplify steps. But whatever step they're telling you to do that will make the recipe better, 100%.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to talk about the rosemary focaccia, and you've described your favorite focaccia as having a very thin, slightly crispy golden crust with a soft open crumb, and you've achieved that using gluten-free flours with a very high hydration dough, includes a lot of olive oil, millet flour, which gives the focaccia its golden color. Yes?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Fascinating.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, can I walk you through my process? You can edit it down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my god, yes.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, when I was testing this recipe, I am not... When you see all these videos of on Instagram or whatnot with these focaccias with huge bubbles and going crazy, we're not going to be able to do that because we don't have gluten rubber bands in our doughs. But I do still think it has to be very moist, golden, olive oil crispy flavorful bread that has a nice open crumb.
So for that, I use a combination of millet and sorghum. So to me, sorghum has a bit of a more wheat flavor. It doesn't have the structure of wheat, but the flavor is wheaty. And then millet is a whole grain flour, but it is a bit higher on the starch. So, it's going to give you that fluffiness aeration that we're looking for, and it also is yellow, so it does give you that kind of color. That if I see a focaccia that's very brown, it's just like it doesn't read focaccia to me, so I rely on millet.
So when I was making the recipe, I made it different ways. I made it where I made the dough first and immediately put it in the pan and fermented it. Then I made the dough, and then I would bulk ferment it, shape it in the pan, ferment it again, and I realized that my best crumb was coming out when I was creating a sponge, so creating a poolish, almost like a biga, where you're hydrating part of your flour with water and also adding a little bit of the baker's yeast.
So doing that, fermenting that first and allowing the dough to come in later and build a dough later was giving me kind of a lighter dough that wasn't over-proofed, as in when I was just making the dough, putting in the pan and fermenting it and baking it. That was kind of over-proofing a little bit more, and I was able to push the flavor of the yeast a little bit more by creating-
Jessie Sheehan:
The poolish.
Aran Goyoaga:
The poolish.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that makes sense. And we're going to get into every step, but you had said, and this just sounded so delicious to me, you had said that this bread works so well for sandwiches when you cut it in half horizontally, and you love a combination of mortadella, arugula and almond aioli. My mind is blown because Mortadella is literally my favorite thing.
Aran Goyoaga:
Same. I've been obsessed. I mean, we ate a lot of mortadella, we call it, growing up, a lot of it actually. And so it's always been my favorite. I don't really eat a lot of charcuterie. Maybe jamon, because I'm from Spain, but this summer for some reason, or maybe the summer before when I was working on the book, I was just obsessed. I don't know what was happening, but I was eating a lot of mortadella.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, yum. So you've already said this, but just to reiterate, this is not like a gluten-containing focaccia dough. It's not going to be very bubbly. We're not aggressively dimpling the dough with our fingers. It doesn't create large air pockets. So, we're gentle with our dimpling and we're not going to add heavy ingredients, bunches of tomatoes, weighing it down. That'll compress our crumbs.
So, first things first, we're going to make the sponge or the poolish in a medium bowl, and I just wondered if you're at home, is it a ceramic bowl, glass, metal?
Aran Goyoaga:
I love that you go into the details because this is important. I didn't think about these things. Because I have my tools and then I watch other people make my recipes and I'm like, oh, yeah, because you didn't use the right container. Those details are tricky sometimes. So, I actually have this vintage green...
Jessie Sheehan:
Not Pyrex.
Aran Goyoaga:
No, it is sort of that early century, anyway, but it's green and it has a handle and a spout.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, I love it for even when I mix my starter because I can pour it out. This is an important tip for somebody who's switching from traditional gluten-baking sourdough. The focaccia, this one, has baker's yeast, but just like the whisk difference, you should be using a balloon whisk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, all the whisking that I say in the book is to do-
Jessie Sheehan:
Is balloon.
Aran Goyoaga:
... with a balloon whisk. So, we're going to whisk the flours, the water and the yeast in a medium bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
That was my next question, because you say stir together, and I wondered what the tool was. So, we're whisking at this point.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to whisk the sorghum flour, which you said was the flour that tastes like wheat.
Aran Goyoaga:
It has a bit of a wheaty...
Jessie Sheehan:
Not exactly, but-
Aran Goyoaga:
There's also the most available sorghum flour, the most common in the US is white sorghum. If you go to Europe, sometimes I have brown sorghum and that has a different little bit different flavor and color. The sorghum in the book is all...
Jessie Sheehan:
White.
Aran Goyoaga:
White sorghum.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to add the millet flour, which you said can give us a little bit of a puffiness or a softness.
Aran Goyoaga:
It's high starch, so it'll give you a-
Jessie Sheehan:
That's what the word, yeah.
Aran Goyoaga:
... little bit of fluffiness.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to add a little bit of active dry yeast. Is there a brand you like?
Aran Goyoaga:
Red Star, I think, is the one that I use the most.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is there a commercial brand of the millet and the sorghum flour that you would recommend?
Aran Goyoaga:
Both of them are Bob's Red Mill.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then do you ever use instant? I love instant yeast.
Aran Goyoaga:
I know. I don't use instant because I don't think it was as available when I started.
Jessie Sheehan:
Strong... Oh.
Aran Goyoaga:
No, it's actually stronger. I think just by just because what's available or what people were used to using. But I think instant yeast is more available in Europe. So, active dry yeast has eight grams of active dry yeast is going to have probably 10% of its cells are dead. That's why you activate it with warm water. So, if you have 10 grams of instant yeast that is ready to be activated-
Jessie Sheehan:
All of it.
Aran Goyoaga:
... all of it is... That's why it's powerful because it doesn't have dead cells in it. So, I always say reduce by 10% or so.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you're going to use instant.
Aran Goyoaga:
If you're going to use instant, and then you don't have to activate it with a warm liquid.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to pour in some water that's heated to 105 degrees into our flour mixture. Is 105, that'll be warm to the touch?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah. If you get over 115, you can kill the yeast. That's just a guideline. If it's lukewarm and it's not warm enough, it might take a while to activate.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, it's nice to use the thermometer.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, if you're not used to what that feels like.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to use our balloon whisk to combine all of that until smooth. We'll cover with a kitchen towel and proof until the sponge rises up, sort of creating a dome, sort of as a mousse-like texture. And that's about 45 minutes.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes. So sometimes, depending, I get messages from people who might live in Florida or Texas, where it's-
Jessie Sheehan:
Where it happens.
Aran Goyoaga:
... warm and humid, that it gets activated really fast.
Jessie Sheehan:
It seems short to me for a poolish or a starter of some kind. So, I saw that all through this recipe. I mean, there's kind of a gift of gluten-free baking. It feels like everything, or at least in this recipe, is a little bit faster.
Aran Goyoaga:
Well, the reason for that, you could decrease the amount of yeast and it would take you longer and you would develop flavor in a longer period of time. You can start with a small amount of yeast and it just is trying to replicate as it eats food. But there is a sourdough focaccia in the book also. So, I wanted something that felt very quick.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Aran Goyoaga:
This rosemary focaccia using baker's yeast is like a quick, I want focaccia like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yesterday.
Aran Goyoaga:
... an hour and a half, two hours, versus something that's going to take you maybe 12, 13, 14 hours to make.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to make the dough. We're going to add room temperature water now, extra virgin olive oil, apple cider vinegar to the bowl with a sponge and whisk together. Why are we adding apple cider vinegar?
Aran Goyoaga:
Apple cider vinegar helps with tenderizing and activation, but also I love when breads have a bit of a sour flavor. So, it's not going to be the same sour flavor sourdough because there's the two versions in the book and they have different flavor profiles.
But I like a bread that has a bit of that acidic profile, so I tend to use it. Oftentimes, when you see gluten-free bread recipes, they might use maybe a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar. I tend to use usually more than what technically you're supposed to use just because I like the flavor.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to whisk in the psyllium husk. We're going to let it gel for about five minutes. Will we see a difference? Will we see...
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, the mixture will-
Aran Goyoaga:
It'll be like jello, kind of.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And then in a stand mixer, we're going to stir together. Are we whisking with our balloon whisk?
Aran Goyoaga:
It doesn't have to be. At this point, it could just be stirred. Just so all the ingredients are mixed together when you're going to add the wet ingredients into it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So, we're going to stir together the tapioca starch, the potato starch. We're using the starches for that fluffiness, for the softness, the pillowy-ness. And is potato starch Bob's Red Milk product?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes, both potato and tapioca.
Jessie Sheehan:
And tapioca. We're going to add some granulated sugar and some kosher salt. We'll whisk that together. We'll add the gelled sponge mixture to that stand mixer bowl snap on our dough hook.
And I love that language. I've never said I might copy you. I love the idea of snapping on the dough hook. Because I always say "with the dough hook," but I love snap. It's such a good word.
Sure, we're going to snap on the dough hook, mix on medium speed until the dough comes together and a smooth, three to four minutes. So, it's short. It's not like a long...
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, because you're not really developing. You are trying to hydrate your flour. So, you do need time for your flours to absorb. There's a word in French in bread baking technique, where you add all your liquid and then you wait until... You wait like five minutes, and then you incorporate a little bit more of the water if you need to.
Because flour does take, it doesn't instantly hydrate. It's something that might appear, and this is very true for my recipe, something that at first when you're mixing it looks dry, give it time, mix it and mix it and mix it, because eventually it will change. Like the flour will absorb, especially if you're using a flour that's maybe stone mill or not super fine, it's going to take longer for that flour granules to hydrate.
Jessie Sheehan:
To absorb. So, we're going to transfer the dough to a work surface, lightly flouring our work surface, or is it not really sticky?
Aran Goyoaga:
You won't need it because it's very moist, and then it has tons of olive oil, so it's not going to be sticky.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we'll knead it a few times to sort of smooth out the surface. Now, we're going to proof the dough. We're going to drizzle the bottom of a nine-inch square pan with about two to three tablespoons of olive oil. Or you can use a 9 by 13, but if you do, you're only stretching it to nine inches.
And I had a question about this. Is it small because it's harder to make a larger quantity, or is it just small because you're saying this is a quick and easy nine... What was that choice?
Aran Goyoaga:
That's a good question. When I was making it larger, I felt like these doughs are delicate, so it doesn't have that power, brutal force of gluten, we're going to rise and we're going to hold it in place. So sometimes gluten-free breads tend to be smaller because the smaller it is, and the more support it has on the sides to lift, the better it's going to hold up. It's going to give it more support and the structure where it's rising, if that makes sense.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally, totally. So we're going to place the dough inside the pan, flatten it with our hands until it nearly reaches the edges and is about three-quarter inches deep or tall. We'll use our fingers to dimple the surface of the dough, making deep indentations, but we're being gentle. We're going to dimple again, but we're being gentle.
Aran Goyoaga:
At this point, you...
Jessie Sheehan:
Can be a little more?
Aran Goyoaga:
You can be more aggressive, because it's going to rise. Once it's risen-
Jessie Sheehan:
That's fun.
Aran Goyoaga:
... if you go again, like in the videos, they're going choo, choo, you're going to deflate it and then it's not going to have enough bounce to rise up again.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to cover the pan with the kitchen towel. We'll proof until nearly doubled, 45 minutes to an hour, which also seems short-ish to me, which is great, I mean...
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah. And also it's very easy to over-proof gluten-free doughs. It's better to under-proof a little bit and let the oven spring do the rising. If you over-proof it's going to look beautiful. It's going to look like it rose and it's puffy, but then it's not going to have enough structure to sustain the oven, spring, and the oven. So oftentimes, it's hard to know when it's ready because if it does look super ready, as you have trained your eye traditionally, you've taken it too far.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So, I'm just saying doubled in size. Stop there just because you think, oh, I want-
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I want it to be super big, careful.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we'll position a rack in the bottom third of the oven and we'll preheat the oven to 425. We're going to drizzle the top of the focaccia with more olive oil. And I should ask, is there a brand of olive oil that you love?
Aran Goyoaga:
Can I plug my friend?
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course you can.
Aran Goyoaga:
I love Le Marké. Karen Mordechai, she's American, but she is making olive oil in Italy, and I love Wonder Valley. They're my friends in California.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we'll drizzle the top of the focaccia with olive oil. We'll gently dimple the top of the focaccia with our fingertips, sprinkle with some rosemary, thyme, flaky salt, and black pepper. Bake for about 45 to 50 minutes until the surface is deep golden brown. If the surface is too dark after 35 minutes, tent with aluminum foil, and then we'll drizzle more when it comes out of the oven.
Aran Goyoaga:
Can I say something?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, please.
Aran Goyoaga:
I think I say it in the recipe, but it's very tempting to take this focaccia out of the oven early, because it will look golden very early on. But the crumb, there's so much moisture in it from the olive oil and all the water that it really needs time to set. And if you take it out too early, it might collapse and it might be gummy. So, you really want the crumb to dry out and solidify in the oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
I thought of this when I wrote down the instructions, and then I'm realizing 50 minutes. You would think it's kind of a long time-
Aran Goyoaga:
A long time.
Jessie Sheehan:
... for bread. So, that's a really good note.
Aran Goyoaga:
Because what happens is when you have gluten and your bread can expand a lot, it's easy. There's space, so it's easy for all the moisture to evaporate. When you have a denser crumb that doesn't open up as much, the water can't leave, it can't evaporate as quickly. So, then it takes time, it takes longer than You think.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, so interesting. Hence, the direction to cover with foil. If it's too dark, then we'll let the focaccia cool in the pan for 10 minutes.
Aran Goyoaga:
Important.
Jessie Sheehan:
To let it cool.
Aran Goyoaga:
Because again, it's a very delicate crumb. So, if you start manipulating it or cutting into it, you're going to make the crumb while it's still moist-
Jessie Sheehan:
Collapse.
Aran Goyoaga:
Collapse into itself.
Jessie Sheehan:
And get gummy probably.
Aran Goyoaga:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we'll slide it onto a wire rack to cool completely before cutting it. So basically, do not eat the bread warm.
Aran Goyoaga:
No, I would say, I mean...
Jessie Sheehan:
You could but slightly hot.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, it's exactly. I would say this is a great recipe to make in the morning and serve for dinner. It has so much olive oil, it will stay well.
Jessie Sheehan:
I want it for lunch, because I want a mortadella sandwich.
Aran Goyoaga:
Oh, sandwiches.
Jessie Sheehan:
I guess I could eat a sandwich for dinner.
Aran Goyoaga:
You can make it in the morning and eat it for lunch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about the focaccia crackers.
Aran Goyoaga:
When I make those at home, everybody's like, "How do you..." And it's so easy to make, but the focaccia crackers is just, if your focaccia dries out and you have extra, just slice it into thin strips and then dry them out in the oven with a little bit extra olive oil and then you can store them. And that's like a nice cracker to have, like bagel chips.
Jessie Sheehan:
I had to write... How thin should I be assumed... It's kind of as thin as you can get?
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I would say, I mean quarter-inch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Quarter-inch and then bake it at 300 until dry and crispy. 20 minutes transfer to a wire racks or with dips and cheeses. Yeah, that just sounded-
Aran Goyoaga:
Yeah, I would drizzle with olive oil, and maybe sprinkle a little bit more flaky salt on top. I don't know if I say that. I don't think I say that. I'm making this up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I was lucky enough to be with Aran last night and taste some of her delicious bread and crackers, so can you just describe those crackers.
Aran Goyoaga:
Buckwheat sourdough crackers.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Aran Goyoaga:
There's a whole chapter in the book of using sourdough discard. When you're building sourdough starter and then also refreshing it, in its lifetime, you're going to accumulate a lot of discard. And so I don't want people to just throw it away and you can save it in a jar and the fridge until it grows mold, and don't use it if it has mold. But while it's still-
Jessie Sheehan:
Long time.
Aran Goyoaga:
... even if it's inactive, it's still flour and water and tangy microorganisms that are dead. But they provided flavor through hooch, so you can mix that into different pastries. There's even pasta, banana bread, cookies, pastry dough, which is actually my favorite.
So, these seeded crackers use some of the buckwheat chestnut sourdough discard, but you can use any other sourdough discard that you have. And then you mix in additional buckwheat flour, water, olive oil, almond flour, and becomes almost like a crepe batter. You want it to be thin. That's the beauty of it. You don't have to roll them between parchment or anything. You just pour it in your sheet pan and spread it with a spatula, very thinly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Parchment-lined pan?
Aran Goyoaga:
Parchment line, spread it thinly on a baking sheet, top it with a bunch of seeds and flaky salt, and you bake it on low oven, like 325, until it's nice and crispy.
Jessie Sheehan:
How long?
Aran Goyoaga:
It depends. I mean, if you do it thinly, it's probably about 30 minutes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. I love the idea.
Aran Goyoaga:
If you put two pans in there-
Jessie Sheehan:
It takes longer.
Aran Goyoaga:
... if there's extra moisture, it'll take longer.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love the idea of a cracker, but I did a lot of crackers for my last book, easy ones. But I love the idea of almost a crepe batter, like it being that loose and then you can get it super, super thin.
Aran Goyoaga:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Aran. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Aran Goyoaga:
Oh, thank you, Jessie. I actually, you force me to think about things. Sometimes I do things instinctually, I shouldn't say that, because I should come across as like the expert. Sometimes they are instinctual, and when I talk to you, I am like, "Oh yeah, that's why I did it."
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, good.
Aran Goyoaga:
So, thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're welcome.
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Diamond of California Nuts and California Prunes for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.