Asma Khan Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I just got back from a week in Ireland with Kerrygold and had an amazing time. You could check out my Instagram for some of the food, drink, flowers, and fabulous people from my trip. We'll even have a special podcast episode coming soon that I recorded at the famous Ballymaloe in County Cork during their festival of food.
Let's talk about today's show. My guest is Asma Khan, the trailblazing chef, restaurateur, cookbook author, and fierce supporter of women's rights. Asma is also the star of a brand new cooking series on Discovery+ called “Secrets of the Curry Kitchen,” and she's the author of a new cookbook published this spring titled “Monsoon: Delicious Indian Recipes for Every Day and Season.” A few other things about Asma. She has a restaurant in London called Darjeeling Express. I ate there in November, and if you have the chance, I highly recommend having lunch or dinner there. And do not skip the chai even though it takes 20 minutes to brew. Tell Asma that Cherry Bombe sent you. Asma was also featured on a wonderful and moving episode of the “Chef's Table” series on Netflix. You should catch that and see Asma in action. Some of you got to hear Asma live at this year's Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference, and she was one of the most inspiring speakers we have ever had on the Jubilee stage. I'm so thrilled she was able to join me recently at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center to talk more about her life, her food, her cookbook, and her advocacy for women. Asma is one of the most amazing people I have ever met. I know a lot of you will find strength in what she shared with me during this interview, so stay tuned.
Today's show is presented by Struesli, the award-winning sugar-free granola that's flipping the whole granola game on its head. Struesli was created by private chef Adrienne Lufkin, who took all her culinary expertise and crafted this granola that somehow checks every box. It's certified USDA organic, made with the highest quality ingredients, and completely free of added sugars and sweeteners. Struesli is as versatile as it is delicious. I am a Struesli superfan. I discovered the brand a few years ago and buy it at my local health food store, shout out to Park Natural, and I sprinkle it on top of my yogurt or smoothie bowls and even use it as a crunchy salad topper. I love the original flavor, and Adrienne just sent me the savory and seed version in the green packaging, which I can't wait to try. If you're like me and you find a lot of granolas too sweet and carby, and you want something that tastes and feels nutritious and delicious, Struesli is the granola for you. Visit struesli.com to stock up and learn more. Adrienne is an official Bombesquad member. If you'd like to be an official Bombesquad member, visit cherrybombe.com to learn about all the details and perks like discounts on event tickets and invites to our monthly member meetings.
Let's check in with today's guest. Asma Khan, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Asma Khan:
Thank you very much.
Kerry Diamond:
By the way, thank you for being at Jubilee.
Asma Khan:
Oh my God, it was such a privilege and I loved the kind of diversity, the enthusiasm, the passion. There were women of every kind and every kind of background and everybody was so engaged in what was happening, and the enthusiasm was incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
The Bombesquad is a great community. I can't say enough good things about all of you, and I'm so happy you got to see it in action. You can kind of describe it, but it doesn't really do it justice.
Asma Khan:
And I kind of expected it to be something quite buzzing and exciting, but yeah, it didn't prepare me for the kind of emotion of people coming and embracing you and weeping. It was really quite overwhelming.
Kerry Diamond:
You made a lot of people cry, by the way.
Asma Khan:
I know. I always do that. I always wonder what am I doing that is making... Maybe it's my tone, my accent. Yeah, a lot of-
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe it's that you speak the truth. I think it could be that.
Asma Khan:
It could be that, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Unfiltered, we're not used to hearing that.
Asma Khan:
Life is too short. Every day, you and I, we will live one day less. I'm just not going to waste my time trying to think about who am I going to upset, how am I going to lose out? That is what holds all of us back, the fear of being left out, the fear of being marginalized or losing privilege. I would rather do all of that than stay silent.
Kerry Diamond:
And so many girls, I'm going to say it, so many girls are raised to be polite.
Asma Khan:
And boys get away with a lot more, and it's really challenging in South Asian cultures and even more so in East Asian cultures. Because in London, I have a bar restaurant, we have a lot of women coming in of every kind of background. And we have this kind of huddle with a lot of East Asian women who come and say that I felt abused, I felt disrespected, but our culture doesn't allow us to challenge authority because that's the one thing that so many Asian cultures drill into you, but they drill into the girls.
They do not challenge authority, be subservient to your elder or your superior. And it's a family thing, so you don't challenge your parents. You don't challenge your grandparents or anyone elder in your family. But then that is what you expected to do as well when you are in the workplace where everybody is equal. And that is so harmful because it crushes their soul and they go through this job that they came to do because they love it every day feeling undermined and undervalued.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting because by the time you get to the workforce, you're not used to speaking up and challenging.
Asma Khan:
And it's a difficult road and you can't learn the skill. You can't be taught how to speak up. And the problem is that they admit that when they are raising girls, they raise them in this traditional way because they don't want to get these girls out of control because they want them to stay conformed so that everybody in their family is like, "Oh, she's out of control."
Things that my mother would listen whenever anything went wrong with me, they would always tell my mother that you're going to regret this because she's going to go out of control. What is out of control? I mean, this was always constantly, never did my mother turn around and say, "Don't do this or don't do that," but I used to hear people telling my mother that.
And then the other thing is that no one would marry her, which almost came out to be true because everyone got married at 18 in my family and I only got married at 22.
Kerry Diamond:
18, yes, that's so young. Gosh.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, but that's the legal age, and that's when everybody got married.
Kerry Diamond:
You said something interesting in Jubilee. You said it wasn't a forced marriage, it was an arranged marriage and there's a big difference.
Asma Khan:
Yes. And I tried to explain that it's like speed dating but with your whole family involved. It's a traditional way to find a suitable boy or a suitable girl. And they look at things like, are you compatible, do you come from the same background, where do you go to college or school, what languages do they speak and what are their interests?
So someone in the middle is doing all this kind of matchmaking and they kind of work out. Of course, some of them don't but I have a theory, and this is very controversial. I'm going to get maybe some backlash for this. The reason why a lot of arranged marriages work is because you start the marriage with zero expectations because you don't know each other.
When you are romantic partners or when you've gone through, maybe you met at workplace and you date and you go through this very beautiful stage in your life where you have not hit the first hurdle, when your child has not got sick and where your house hasn't got flooded or something terrible that happens, you haven't seen each other at that point. You're seeing all that rosy beautiful part.
And then when suddenly you see this thing and you don't like this person anymore, you feel that they're taking advantage of you or they didn't show compassion, they didn't show respect. And children has a different ballgame, and I think that that is where all the challenges come.
And with arranged marriages, I am in no way advocating arranged marriages but I'm saying that you don't know this person, so everything is new. So some of the hurdles that a lot of other people hit, you don't hit because like, oh wow, this is what he just said, or this is this really weird thing, he is very quirky when it comes to these things. It kind of just takes time and you settle down. A lot of people eventually do fall in love. Some people don't.
Kerry Diamond:
We should point out you are still married.
Asma Khan:
Yes, I am still married to the same guy, but this is not because of me, but because he has incredible patience. He deserves a medal for tolerating the madness that is me, and he's very chilled out. And I'm very grateful because he doesn't helicopter over me.
It's interesting because in Italy, a lot of women we're talking about who were in food were saying that if we won an award or something, we had to mention their name or take them up to stage. And they would always question, who is this guy standing next to you? This possessive demand that they are acknowledged, my God.
Thank God my husband doesn't even know what I'm doing, has not probably read any of my cookbooks. He stays out of my life and is always shocked when we are together on the street and people recognized me. He said, "Wow, this person knows your name." And I was like, "Mushtaq, I'm on television. I've written a cookbook. Why would you think they wouldn't know my name?" But his mind is blown that people know my name in a very soft, innocent way, no resentment. I'm very lucky with him.
Kerry Diamond:
Is he still a professor?
Asma Khan:
Yes, he is still a professor and he's very academic in that he's very committed to his students and his own research projects and kind of lives in a different world from me completely, which is fine by me.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. The new issue of our print magazine is dropping very soon. The team has been hard at work finishing it. You can subscribe or buy a single issue over at cherrybombe.com. We have four different covers for this issue and you won't believe our cover stars: Gloria Steinem, Sophia Roe, Mashama Bailey, and life and work partners, Rita Sodi and Jody Williams. This is something new we're trying out, but subscribers can choose which issue they'd like to receive. In the past, you got what you got when we did multiple covers, so this is real progress, folks. It's all about choice. Again, head to cherrybombe.com and to those of you who already subscribe, thank you very much.
Donna Yen:
Hi Bombesquad, it's Donna Yen, Cherry Bombe's Community Director. Have you heard about our membership program? It's a strong community of women in and around the world of food and drink. A Cherry Bombe membership gives you full access to connection and inspiration from expert-led virtual meetups and networking to discounted event tickets, exclusive newsletters, and opportunities to pitch your own big ideas. We also host monthly virtual member meetups and on June 17th at 4:00 PM EST on Zoom, we're hearing from food stylist and author, Diana Yen who just released her new book, “Firepit Feast.” Fun fact, Diana is also my sister, so we'll be chatting about her career as a content creator, cookbook author, her best summer grilling tips, and more. You won't want to miss it. Already a member? Check your inbox for the meeting link. And if you want to join the Bombesquad, learn more about becoming a member today over at cherrybombe.com.
Kerry Diamond:
One of the most frequent questions I got on Saturday and Sunday when I was going through my social media after Jubilee was, “When is Asma Khan writing a memoir?”
Asma Khan:
Interesting. A lot of people know this, that the life rights to make a film on my life has been given to someone, the option.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I didn't know that. Who?
Asma Khan:
Yes. I am not sure whether I'm allowed to say it.
Kerry Diamond:
Are they famous?
Asma Khan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Who's going to play you in the movie?
Asma Khan:
Well, that's the other point, how much creative control I have. But I...
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. Congratulations. That's got to be weird and exciting at the same time.
Asma Khan:
Yes, and concerning for me as well because it's a lot easier because if someone is no longer there, it's a lot easier for someone to play them. I live, I breathe, I speak, so you have to find someone who can actually play me. But I have recently, very recently in fact, a week before I came to New York, thought about writing a kind of memoir which will allow any screenplay to be based on that because one big challenge is that I need someone who's from the East and the West. I need someone who has lived through the times that I did because the story for me is not what happened to me after I came to England.
I mentioned my sister. I'm talked about my childhood, about being the one that everybody laughed at, the fat, ugly, dark-skinned girl who was always never photographed. I was not in any group because when I was writing my cookbook, “Ammu,” the one before “Monsoon,” I went through all the family archives looking for a picture of my mother and me. And no one thought it was worth taking that picture. I had to use a picture, my mother pregnant, five months pregnant. And everyone photographed her because they thought she was carrying a boy, and that's why those pictures are there. And I use that of me in her womb. The book is in ammu's name, my mother and me, but no one took a picture.
And these are harsh reminders that I was always on the fringes. But the thing is that this is happening to girls today because of colorism and bias about what girls do and what they don't do, and the kind of obsession with whiteness in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, that the fair-skinned girl is the preferred girl. The dark-skinned, oh my God, and God help her if she's fat is not valued, that no photograph existed of me with my mother. There were group pictures with cousins, but that's hard. Even at that age in my mid-fifties, I cried. And I was overcome by feeling, not that I was feeling bad for myself, but I realized that how many more girls is this happening to?
It's a little thing now, of course, when everyone takes photographs because it's a thing, but in the past then it was like someone would develop that picture and it was my grandfather, my maternal grandfather who was obsessed about photography and photographing people and he had a dark room. It was his choice not to photograph me. That is hard to take. So it wasn't just that I was never there, I was in the wrong place or I never attended things or, oh, you were missed out, you were too late. No, I was there but never asked.
I remember that, that I was never asked to stand and pose for a picture because he'd have this old-fashioned light and had a stool where he would make you sit. There weren't these natural pictures. They were very staged pictures. I used to watch the pretty people getting the stage picture.
Kerry Diamond:
So you knew that it was like not getting picked for a team when you're younger.
Asma Khan:
Yes, and that also happened to me a lot, but I didn't care. I didn't really want to play any sports. I love to sing and I love-
Kerry Diamond:
You did love cricket though.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, I love cricket, but cricket, everyone would pick me. So I wouldn't get picked in my school because of course I went to an all-girls school where they don't play cricket. But I played on the streets. On the streets, people loved me. These were very poor street children. I was god there because I was so good at the game. And everyone is afraid of me because I was a very, very fast bowler.
So there, that's where I found my calling and I felt very powerful and embraced by people who had nothing. They were street kids, they had nothing. We couldn't even afford bats for everybody. I didn't dare ask my parents for another bat because there would be this big discussion of why are you on the street playing with these kids. But they didn't stop me. They didn't stop me. I mean, I was smart enough to know not to get caught breaking windows and things. I always ran away, so I never got caught into trouble.
Luckily in the streets of Calcutta still, the world is still stopped. People are still obsessed about cricket. And even though a lot of cricket is on television, people still want to play the game. But I don't see any girls. And of course, I came from a privileged and wealthy family. So the fact that I was playing on the street, I'm sure that people complained about me. My parents have never admitted to that, but they must have said that this is a really bad image for this girl to be playing on the street.
Kerry Diamond:
So you haven't had the same sort of women's sports revolution in India that we've had here?
Asma Khan:
It's happening now, but the money that they're being paid, the sponsorship, it's so wide, the gap between the men and the women. I don't think that'll ever catch up. And there is still so much misogyny about what a sports person is wearing, so much emphasis on photography that is inappropriate. It's really sad that people are still obsessed about what you're wearing and playing the sports. It's unacceptable.
But we are getting there. So things like badminton and we have big stars who are successful, women cricketers is big now. I just wish they kick the ass of the Australians because they had, the Australian women team is just so good, just irritating that they're constantly beating the Indian female cricket team.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you trying to sort of fight? I told myself on the way here when I was riding over on the subway. I was like, okay, I've made Asma talk about so many heavy things at Hello Sunshine, and then at Jubilee. I was like, you know what? I just want to talk about food today.
Asma Khan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
But before we get to that, I do want you to explain because folks might not understand the whole second daughter thing in everything you just said. We just don't have that here in the States. Can you talk about that a little?
Asma Khan:
It's the whole obsession and almost the fear of a mother that she may not give birth to a boy because the farmland, the house, the family name is carried by the boy. A first child is still a first child. Everyone's grateful that there's a child and a live child in the house, and there's huge excitement. Far often, it's a big thing the child has come to the house.
But when the second one is about to be born, you always hear that, "I hope it's going to be a boy," because it's almost this kind of fear that a lot of families have, who's going to carry the family name. And when the second one is a girl, depending on your class background and where you come, you see so many women who are abandoned at that point because the husband, not even recognizing that the gender of a fetus is because of him will leave this woman because on the balance sheet in our culture, girls are expensive because they have to be married with a dowry.
The other thing is unlike boys who are never seen, the honor of a family is always linked to the girl, her virginity, whether she's pure and clean because they need to get this virgin bride married. In the culture, this is the whole thing that you can't be seen hanging around with a boy, or you can't be seen on the street playing cricket or whatever.
And thank God my parents didn't have these issues, but the honor in protecting the girl and almost like it's a point of shame for a father if he has not found a suitable boy to get the girl married. So another girl turning up doubles the burden to that family. It is a real financial cost because they've got to get the second girl married as well. They've got to find someone suitable for her.
It's a real thing. Patriarchy is real and thriving. And I come across people who are Indians who say, "Oh, Asma, you're talking about another world." I am not. In your privileged circle in Delhi and Bombay and Calcutta, yes, it might be less now, that there isn't this fear about the cost. But India lives in the villages. In the villages, dowry is still given. And the father gets into debt, sells family land to feed the entire village. You've got to put up a great show for a wedding.
People talk about, oh, Indian weddings are for seven days and so grand. Think of the cost. If you do not have a grand wedding, everyone's going to say, "Oh, you are poor." And the boy's family is going to demand greater dowry because they felt slighted by the fact that they didn't put up a feast for seven days to feed their guests.
We are a very, very broken society when it comes to what happens to girls. You cannot speak about this. You cannot challenge these things because patriarchy is so powerful. You will get the backlash from everybody saying, "Oh, this doesn't exist," or that, "Oh, you are this western person who's talking about this." This is my lived experience. I'm not talking from a political point of view about equality. I knew then this was wrong. I felt it. I was humiliated. I felt unwanted, unloved, abandoned by the larger family.
But my parents, I mean I've talked about this, my mother cried when I was born. She felt she'd let the entire side down by delivering a girl. She loved me so much, she taught me how to cook. But what is interesting, I was three and a half when my brother was born. She refused to celebrate when he was born. And of course, I come from a royal family, so the heir has arrived, the prince is there. And I stood outside my door to see all the neighbors who came to say, is the...
You don't have a Facebook announcement and WhatsApp at that time, 1972, they came to say, "What happened, the child born?" And I said, "Yes, it's a brother." And I remember them telling me, "Oh, it's not true. You've got a sister because there are no celebrations. We didn't get sweets. There was not, your house would've been lit up with fireworks and little lights and there would've been a huge party." My mother refused to celebrate.
And I didn't fully understand what was happening. I just thought, this is really weird that they don't believe me that I have a brother. I saw the brother in the hospital and I processed this in my late thirties when I was in England. I kind of worked this out that, oh my God, how incredible was this woman? My mother at that time refused to allow society to dictate to her. Society made her weep when I was born. She would not celebrate when my brother was born. She's an incredible woman.
My mother is one of five sisters. She was the dark-skinned middle daughter, unloved, unwanted, uncelebrated. She knew what that felt like. She wasn't going to make me go through that journey. So she stood by me even though others made me feel not wanted. So that's the burden of being a second daughter and despite all my success and everything that I've done, I carry the scars. They will never heal.
So for all of you who are listening to this and you know this is happening in your family for whatever reason, to a boy or to a girl, step in. These are scars that are damaging so much because you never feel good enough for anything. I came out of this so powerful because my sister, my mother, my brother and my father made me feel invincible.
But someone may not have a second chance. This girl or boy is going to go through life with a chip on their shoulder feeling unwanted, struggling with relationships, struggling with breakups, struggling with how to be a good parent because they never saw what it is to have a good father or a good mother and being shown love. And it's happening in families here in England, in India, this happens everywhere.
It even happens in the workplace. You know the person who's being subtly bullied. You know the person who's being always marginalized, who's being left out of email chains. Speak up because even if that means that you then get into some trouble with the workforce, never allow someone else to be made to feel smaller than others. If you have the power and you're powerful, it's your duty of care to step in.
Kerry Diamond:
That's great advice. Thank you for that, Asma. I think one of your quotes that everyone loves so much is that you were put through fire but came out gold.
Asma Khan:
Yes. And I would not want anyone else to go through this. I feel it's more complicated because my journey is not the same as a white woman. Because I see hurdles, I carry cultural baggage which she may not be carrying. This slows me down. How can I win my race? My race is also not the same as any man irrespective of what color of skin. I still won. I still won despite the cultural baggage and the hurdles and the fire I have to go through.
I speak about this because I think it's very important to recognize that some of this cultural baggage you can let down. You will still be who you are. And in my accented voice, which shows where I am and you know one can see what I'm wearing, I am dressed in very traditional Indian clothes, not because I'm playing fancy dress, I wear it all the time. If you've seen “Chef's Table,” I'm wearing it then. I never gave up my outfit.
I'm spiritually very Muslim. There are parts of my faith which I love, which I embrace. Others which are more challenging, it's a different thing. But I feel very confident in the color of skin I am, in my accent, in the fabric that I wear. You need to find that comfort zone. You don't allow other people to tell you who you are.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I hope you know how beautiful we all find you.
Asma Khan:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
We really do. I mean, you are just an extraordinary person, and I'm so happy that all 1,000 people who came to Jubilee got to experience that. I don't want to spend too much time on this because this could be an entire episode, but we're dealing with a whole new and different level of misogyny here in the United States. And several of us addressed on stage on Saturday, everyone's just reeling and not even sure how to deal with it.
It's impacting so many people from so many walks of life. I listened to an episode of The New York Times Daily podcast this morning. It was an interview with a woman who started a small business in Rochester, Minnesota doing really interesting products for babies essentially. It was like these great products for families to keep the kids busy, and she makes everything in China and she is just facing disaster right now. And everybody should listen to it. The ending is so unspeakably sad.
And that's just one example of so many things that everyone's going through. That stupid voting act, I don't even know if you've read about that where women have to find their birth certificates if they've changed their...
Asma Khan:
Changed their names.
Kerry Diamond:
Their names when they got married. I mean the mixed messages.
Asma Khan:
This is medieval.
Kerry Diamond:
It's medieval.
Asma Khan:
It is medieval.
Kerry Diamond:
But the mixed messages, it's like get married, have a baby, be a trad wife. Don't change your name, don't have a baby because there's no support system for you anywhere. I mean the mixed messages are crazy.
Asma Khan:
It's interesting because I grew up in a different world, no internet. I grew up in a state in India that was controlled by a Marxist government. So they banned Coca-Cola, they banned Hollywood. So we never got to see even films or anything. You got to see-
Kerry Diamond:
I'm just laughing because Coca-Cola and Hollywood was such a big part of my childhood.
Asma Khan:
But Coca-Cola was kicked out by the actual government. All of this came out much later, not got to see anything, no Hollywood, and no way of understanding. In some ways, an age of innocence so you couldn't, but we all thought it was the land of milk and honey, that when you went to the West, everyone was free and women could do anything they wanted. They could wear what they wanted.
And so when we were young, we thought you could wear a bikini and walk on the street in New York. And this is all okay because you had some images in your head of freedom, and freedom to be who you wanted and you could smoke and you could fly a plane. When you're kids, you think these are all really super cool things that you can smoke wearing a bikini and then getting into a plane and flying.
But I realized when I moved to the West that things are not so black and white. There are many shades of gray and I really think that a lot of women in the West have the same challenges that we have in the East.
I went through this whole stage when I was looking for a lease after COVID, when my landlord told me to leave. I tried to find a lease and very nice suited white men were asking me if I had a business partner. Who else was in my company? They were asking me for the suit in my life. They were asking me for my suitable boy.
In the East, they would've said, "Who's your father? Where do you live? Who's your husband? Are you married? Is your son come with you," because your credibility, male has to stand by you for them to even negotiate with you that you can take a lease.
In the West, they asked me. It took me some while to process this was happening to me. That's when I went to a landlord's office and I spoke to a female there. She was incredible. I said, "Now, the chessboard is clear. Every piece is off the board because this is COVID. I now come back as queen. I'm going to tell you the site I want. You're going to give it to me."
Kerry Diamond:
I just got goosebumps.
Asma Khan:
And she stood up and told me, "I will do everything I can to get it," and I got it. Then of course, in two years' time the pack was back and they asked me to leave. And I had to leave and I lost 300,000 pounds. I left-
Kerry Diamond:
That's a lot of money.
Asma Khan:
Yes, I lost. Yeah, they came for me. They came for me. So if you think the West is anywhere easier, it's not. And what you're seeing now is the gloves are off, the masks have been taken off. I saw it at a different time. There is a veneer of respectability how women are treated. Please wake up. This is the reality. For those of you who never had to face it, you're lucky.
Now, we are on a level playing field. We are all suffering, the privileged, the educated, the uneducated, someone irrespective of the color of skin, what passport you have. It doesn't matter how powerful your passport is, this is a different world. It's a reality that you're all waking up to. I know this is a horrible time, but as I said when I ended for me in this darkness, I hear the birds telling you about dawn. In this darkness, I know there is going to be light. Day will always follow night.
We're going to come out of this so powerful because we are going to build alliances. Reach out to other women. Speak up. Don't be afraid. Yes, you may feel threatened and you may temporarily lose some privilege, but for the women today and for the girls who are not born yet, be brave, be courageous. We must do this because we are all now in the same place. The reason why we have suffered is because privileged women...
I've always said I've never felt comfortable with white feminists, with all of them because if I was to wear a hijab right now, they would feel that, "Oh, she's being coerced." And what happens in France is unacceptable. You need to be half naked to swim, but you cannot be clothed and swim. What kind of progressive nation is this? You cannot dictate to women, "Here you can't. You don't have a choice what you do with your own body." And then men sit in courts and tell you what you can and cannot wear.
I am just appalled. Leave us alone. I want to wear a hijab. I want to wear a bikini. I want to wear nothing. Let me do what I want. It's crazy that women are being dictated until today of what they can and cannot do. And the fact that you do not have a choice, you don't have the choice about whether you will hold the baby, keep the baby, how is this normal? This is your absolute right and as a mother, the choice that someone has taken, that's her personal journey. Who are you to tell her what she should do? You haven't gone through the emotions she's going through. This is so personal.
It's shocking, and I just think that maybe the time has come for women who've always been seen as backward, seen as crushed under patriarchy. We need the liberal, mainly all white women which is the reality, for them to build bridges with us because we are all in equal trouble now. This may be the greatest thing that will come out of this, the solidarity and the fightback. I am an optimist. I feel our dawn will come and it's going to be the most beautiful dawn with the most beautiful music that'll unite us all.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm happy to hear you're an optimist. One of the things that really made me kind of sit up and listen even more than I was when Gloria Steinem was speaking, I know you weren't there to hear her.
Asma Khan:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll run that footage at some point so everybody can hear what Gloria had to say. It's clear she is shocked that she has to live this part of her life under the Trump administration. She's 91. She said that she researched who is the oldest woman on the planet and how old is she? I think it was someone who claims to be 135 years old. She was like, "That's my new goal."
Asma Khan:
That's so sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
And that's great because that would be, what, 44 years more of Gloria Steinem. But I can imagine someone like her at that age just being like, how did we get here? And I know so much has been written about how did we get here, but for someone like her, the how did we get here just has to be...
Asma Khan:
And it's not just like-
Kerry Diamond:
So just heartbreaking.
Asma Khan:
You see this in many countries.
Kerry Diamond:
She talked about Modi.
Asma Khan:
Yes, and you see about the global instability everywhere. The fact that even today, it's not that there isn't enough food. We have a problem with distribution that children die of hunger. They die of hunger In India, they're dying of hunger everywhere. And for those who have children, you just imagine how tough that is. And we then go and bury wonky-looking, is wonky a very English word?
Kerry Diamond:
Mm-hmm.
Asma Khan:
Americans will get wonky?
Kerry Diamond:
Mm-hmm.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, weird-looking carrots in a landfill site. That will release methane, which will make the ozone layer even more fragile. We will bury the carrot. Let's not feed anyone that because the carrot is not perfect. How have you reached this stage? We are a really twisted broken society. Let's face up to it. The food system is broken.
We are so obsessed about, I can afford organic, looking down on poor families that are feeding their families stodgy food. You find this in U.K. a lot that this big one-pound meal of frozen chips and something else of undefinable, something stodge. I would give my child that, so that they would sleep and not be hungry. I'm not going to judge people, but the fact that people are being judged because they're poor and they cannot afford this organic apple that is farm to fork and you can freeze the whole thing, grow up. There are people who do not have this privilege.
The first time I came to this country in '91, and I saw stickers on every banana. I had a banana tree at my bloody house. I was like, who sat and bloody put stickers on this thing and someone has owned this banana has come from somewhere. I found this just shattering that there were stickers on each banana because someone is controlling it, that the banana is not free. It's really difficult.
And I have luck to have grown up at a different time in India. India today learned all the bad things about the West. I went to Delhi, I was offered sourdough and avocado on toast, almost died. I was ready to scream. The avocado had come from Australia. They were telling me how amazing it is. I felt like crying. Why are we eating this stuff? Avocado is the last thing we should be eating. We grow beautiful produce in India. Why are we trying to be like the West?
But globalization has some good bits and some really bad bits when it comes to food. We're copying the food habits of the West in hotter countries, in countries where there's scarcity of water and we are trying to live that kind of life because that is seen as the aspirational life of the privileged.
Kerry Diamond:
I do think food should be free.
Asma Khan:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I think food should be free. I think education should be free. And I know not everyone agrees with that, but stop and think about that for a second. Why shouldn't food be free?
Asma Khan:
I work with charities where we get donated stuff. Very frighteningly, you get donated stuff around like two o'clock in the afternoon and you cook an entire meal as a fundraiser. My fear is artichokes because I never figured out what to do with artichokes or Brussels sprouts. You think I'm going to die. I just keep praying, "Oh my God, please let there be potatoes," because I'm Indian. I could bloody do anything with potatoes.
I'll never forget the joy of someone donated 300 eggs and, oh my God, I'm from Bengal. Eggs rock absolutely. I was crying in relief that oh, someone donated, but this was not going to a landfill. We were cooking meals and giving it to the elderly, to the homeless in this community. But we need to do more of this and how grateful they were for a cooked meal, and especially I made pilau and things, so many of them of different kind of African origin.
But food is very similar across borders, thanks to the British taking indentured laborers everywhere. They were so emotional like, "Oh my God, this reminds me of when I was a child." You feel how controlled the whole food system is that old people are starving. This is not right.
Kerry Diamond:
It always shocks me that we don't have more fruit trees in the city. And I know we've got a rat problem, things like that. But you go to a place like Los Angeles or San Francisco or Seattle or Portland, where they have things that grow in people's yards, and I'm still amazed at that. When a friend tells me, oh, I have a lemon tree in my yard or I have bay leaves or this or that. I process that like it's a miracle and it shouldn't be.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, that's true. And in India where there were still houses, you always had lots of fruit trees. And that was always a tradition that you plant a tree. But now with people and with inheritance laws where there are like five siblings, they demolish these houses, cut down the trees and they make these buildings. And you're seeing less and less trees in a place like Calcutta. Every time I go, and this is within six months I go back, and I see another house with all the doors and windows being sold outside. All those memories gone and those trees being cut for firewood.
Kerry Diamond:
This is a good transition too because I did promise we were going to talk about food. You mentioned eggs before, you mentioned potatoes. You grew up not knowing how to cook. You couldn't even boil an egg, and it wasn't until you were married adult woman that you went back home and learned how to cook. You said something so interesting though that you learned how to cook so fast because you had paid attention as a child.
Asma Khan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you mean by that?
Asma Khan:
I grew up in the kitchen. I adored my mother and I would hang around the kitchen. Also, I loved to eat. My mother had a catering business, so amazing food was made in my house. But you needed someone to taste the food, but they were not small taste portions. There was a whole plate of food that was given to you for taste. So I hung around for those.
I would hear the mustard seed pop, the sizzling of the chilies. Then these conversations about the onions and how the onions were ready to go slow when things were added, and my mother checking with the cooks that as the oil come to the edges. So I heard the conversation. I remember the aromas, I remember the sounds, that immersive experience of being in a kitchen while food was being cooked. And I never ever cooked anything. I was lazy like hell. I played cricket and I ate, and I listened to music and I sang. I did all these stupid things, but I didn't have to. I'm like, "Why will I cook?"
Kerry Diamond:
I've asked you to sing once before, you said no.
Asma Khan:
I'm not going to sing, no, no. Those days are gone. But it was crazy that I went back and I asked my mother to teach me how to cook. The moment she started telling me is oral storytelling. Everything, I visualized and I could do it. And it just fell in place, and I could literally make the most complicated of dishes immediately.
And I came back and I knew everything that I wanted to learn for that trip. Went back again and then learned everything else. And I have ended up being the only person in my family who knows how to make certain dishes because I was in the kitchen.
You think this food would be there forever, but then the old chefs, they died and my mother has no longer got the strength to cook anymore. She unfortunately also I think is losing some of her memory. So she doesn't remember the sequence of stuff. And I remember everything and I'm the last person in my family who knows how to make certain dishes.
You feel worried that if you just got hit by a bus, all those recipes would die with me. And I wanted to be able to teach somebody, but they can only learn if they stand next to me because these are things which are no measurements, no timings, it's intuition. It's what we call andaz, which is estimate. It's a word that is used, andaz.
Kerry Diamond:
Andaz.
Asma Khan:
It's andaz and you just estimate things. But for that, you would've had to watch that dish being made repeatedly and then all the things that went wrong and how they were fixed. And who has the time, those chefs are gone. There's nobody left to tell the stories. And we are losing, these are forgotten feasts.
Kerry Diamond:
So how much of this is in “Monsoon,” your new book?
Asma Khan:
There are recipes in there of some of my family dishes, including one that is very randomly called yellow curry because it was my mother's great-grandmother who created this dish, and there was a huge fight in my family. Lots of aunts were all claiming their mothers created it. Eventually they had to be a, because I didn't want anyone to turn around and tell me that book is wrong.
So eventually, we had all my uncles came in. There was an adjudication and I named the person so that now it's forever, because no one has ever written this recipe down. It's a simple recipe. I wrote that recipe down and it's so funny because all my cousins had pre-ordered the book. They just want that recipe. That's it. Because they all ate it as children, but no one knows how to make it.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that you had to have this family council meeting before you could finish your cookbook.
Asma Khan:
Yeah. No, because I initially named somebody who's a more aggressive aunt of mine. They're always these aggressive aunts. She claimed, "It was my mother-in-law," and I said, okay. So I named it and then my mother saw it, she was screaming saying, "Oh my God, this is not true." Let's not get into trouble. Let's get this clear.
Kerry Diamond:
So you stand by what's in the book?
Asma Khan:
Yes. And no one's challenged me as it.
Kerry Diamond:
Why is this yellow curry so special?
Asma Khan:
It was what was made for all the children because milk was added to it. For some reason, we don't have a lot of milk in Bengal. It's humid. There's no grass. Bengal is hot and humid. So the milk was expensive and it was added for this very mild dish where the main thing was.
Now we know because everybody understands this whole golden milk, which is the bane of my life. Everyone in the West is obsessed about turmeric like, "Please, for God's sake, it tastes yuck." But turmeric needs the enzymes that are really good for you, the antibacterial, anti-cancer. They are fat soluble, so you need heat and you need fat, and that was what full fat milk was.
So the ancient traditions of these women, they made this dish, which is the yellow curry. The yellow comes from turmeric in a milk gravy, but very light. And all the children were lined up and made to sit on the floor in the balcony and we were all given little dishes with rice and this very soupy dish. I would eat very fast because my sister used to eat very slowly, so I would then get to eat her chicken too. I don't want her soup, I want her chicken. But it's just memories of that. And I have the recipe in “Monsoon.”
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I can't wait to make it. What is something else you'd love to see folks make from the book?
Asma Khan:
I would love them to make the omelet curry. “Monsoon,” I mean now things you can get anything delivered. It's a bit like what's happened in the west. In 15 minutes, anyone can deliver anything. But “Monsoon” used to basically, the bazaar was under water. There was no electricity because all the kind of pylons, the electric... Whole system was shut down.
So the person making the big buck was the egg farmer who was outside the city. He would come in pulling his cycle through the knee, deep water and sell the eggs at a premium. And that was the only food that we got because you couldn't get anything else, whatever you had in the house. So egg was always cooked in this interesting way throughout “Monsoon,” and we started off with one egg and then by the time “Monsoon” and the water was still there, we ended up with half an egg.
But this is an omelet curry. It's something inexpensive. Although I think eggs are really expensive now in England and in this country.
Kerry Diamond:
Eggs are like a luxury item now here.
Asma Khan:
But traditionally, eggs used to be, but it's very nourishing. It's very quick to cook and the gravy is so healing.
Kerry Diamond:
When you say omelet, are you actually making an omelet?
Asma Khan:
You're making an omelet.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Asma Khan:
You're making an omelet and however bad you make an omelet, it gets cooked, that's all right. That's your omelet. Don't worry about it. Then you cut into strips and then you make a gravy in another pan. I hate this one pan obsession. What is this one pot, one pan? How bloody lazy are you?
Kerry Diamond:
I always have a sink full of dishes. So I'm not a one pan gal.
Asma Khan:
But this whole thing, that one pan, it's just a whole lot of lazy people. But so you make the gravy in a little pan and then you make the omelet, then you cut the omelet into strips and you put it in. But thick strips because you don't want the omelet to disintegrate. And then you can have your rice with bread, with salad, with anything. I want people who are like, "Oh, I'm scared of Indian food," because once you make that gravy, eventually you'll have the courage to put chicken and fish and beef and lamb into it.
Omelet is like you can't go wrong. It can be raw. It can taste terrible. You can eat the edge, you know what's happening. You can season it, not season it. You know where you're going. So I want people to try the omelet curry and enter the world of cooking with spices.
Kerry Diamond:
That sounds so good. Where is your chai recipe? Because your chai at Darjeeling Express was one of the best things I've had ever in my whole life.
Asma Khan:
That chai recipe cannot be written.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I knew you were going to say that.
Asma Khan:
So I have chai-
Kerry Diamond:
And when I ordered it, they said it'll take 20 minutes. I was like, oh, I'm intrigued.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, no, it takes time. It's cooked, huge amount, massive pot. That's the pot only for making chai. We cook the spices in the water for a long time, so all the spice infusions go into the water. Then we add the tea leaves and we actually have really strong tea in there. Then we add the milk at the last bit, then we add ginger and pepper.
And you don't know how spices react, but intuitively you know, because something that is like, oh my God, this cardamom is so powerful. Cardamom is very dominant, but as it boils, it gets softer and sweeter. The reason why so many people, I don't know, I don't want to name them, but we know who they are. They've got the green badge, they do the chai latte. It's the worst thing in the world because they add cinnamon to it because that's what they think is happening.
Cinnamon is the spice we use the least. That's the spice that you do not want. Cinnamon is very dominant, and cinnamon doesn't soften as it cools, as you reheat it. Cinnamon is a terrible spice for chai. But people think this is what it is. Basically when I have chai in these kinds of places, which is awkward because it is our chai, you have appropriated, you're making money from it. It tastes like a cinnamon bun that you're put into hot milk and it is dissolved.
That's what your chai is. Chai should really be layered and nuanced, and every sip you should taste a different kind of spice. That's how good chai is made. I'm glad you like the chai in our place. I learned by watching my cooks make chai. Everybody in my team can make the chai by watching me. Someone has to watch me make it many times and then it'll be perfect.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a lot of cooking videos out in the world?
Asma Khan:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you thought about that?
Asma Khan:
Well, I...
Kerry Diamond:
Only in your spare time, Asma?
Asma Khan:
I have a new series, a 10-part series on Food Network in the U.K. coming out on the 8th of May. It's going to be streaming on Discovery+, where I do teach. I teach people how to cook, the basics of spicing. It's very modular. Indian food is very modular. You go in with different flavors because I really want it.
And I don't know, I mean, I think people are afraid to because on television, I don't take any nonsense. There's a lot of misogyny going on. Recently, there's been lots of kind of cases of people now speaking about what they've been through. I'm now going to sit around and watch some man use language, which is unacceptable. People know that, so I never got any television that would be with these people.
I'm so grateful because Food Network came to me and said, "Your show, you do it. What do you want to do?" So I show four recipes in episode three where I explain it separately and one where I actually show how it's made in my restaurant. And I think a lot of people are going to watch this and come out of it knowing how to cook.
Same like “Monsoon,” because yesterday I went to my nephew who's useless, he's never cooked in his life. My sister was in tears, "Wow, my son is cooking." I said, "Why wasn't he cooking all this time?" And another young boy who made the cabbage so beautifully and he was so proud. So the whole group of young Bangladeshi-Pakistani Indians got together. They cooked one dish each.
Kerry Diamond:
From your cookbook?
Asma Khan:
From my cookbook, from “Monsoon,” and it was very emotional. They said for the mothers and the grandmothers, which we never got a chance because they're all in this country and their families are elsewhere. We wanted to give As-Salam and our gratitude for the women we never thanked, so we cooked today for you. I never cooked, and they all cooked. That was deeply moving. I am just optimistic. I think that food is a language of love, and men and women have to acknowledge the spirit of the matriarch, who we took for granted. We took our food for granted.
This is whether you're Italian or Colombian, you're Mexican or Indian, Pakistani, we have always taken these women, these powerhouses for granted. I've said this, so in the Jewish tradition and the Muslim tradition, you have all these festivals where the women play a very big role in what's happening with the food, in Hinduism as well. And again, this is seen as the whole family thing.
Look at the contribution of that woman who is continuing a tradition so that the other young girls in that family remember that food, remember the flavor. They remember that prayer or that chant and the rituals. It's so important. Food is so important. It is our DNA, my food, the stories, they flow through my bloodline. I need to acknowledge that. I need to celebrate that. I need to tell the stories.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't wait for your series.
Asma Khan:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Going to watch all those videos. Let's talk about Darjeeling Express, your amazing restaurant with the all-female kitchen and the open kitchen. I had the great fortune to eat there when I was in London for just a few days. And I met up with Anna Jones, and Melissa Hemsley, and Yasmin Khan. There's so many amazing women on the London food scene and I was really happy to reconnect with them because I hadn't seen Anna and Melissa since before the pandemic.
And we just had the best meal. We laughed the whole time. We ordered pretty much everything on the menu, I think every vegetarian item on the menu and a few non-vegetarian. We all had the chai and it was just one of the best meals I've ever had.
Asma Khan:
That's so sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
And you weren't even there.
Asma Khan:
No, I know.
Kerry Diamond:
So you couldn't watch them make the food.
Asma Khan:
I missed out on all this beautiful gathering of women around my table. And I'm so glad that you all came because this is why a restaurant like Darjeeling Express is there. It's not an ego trip. This is not about me. This is about us. There needs to be a safe space where women can gather, where you sit at your table and you look into this open kitchen and see nine women, three grandmothers laughing and singing, creating magic.
I want everybody, men or women to come in there and feel transported to a time, to a place which may no longer exist, that family home, a grandmom's place, a land that is now so broken that you cannot go back to. I say this in a lot of spaces and I want people to understand what this means. I say the first home I lived in was the womb of my mother. After that, I'm a migrant, so are you, so are all of you.
Who is still living in that same street where they were born, that womb for your mother and through your mother, the flavors, the aromas that you encountered in the womb, that is precious. That is your legacy. You need to go out and keep that connection with who your mother is, her bloodline, her family stories, because all of us are cooking every kind of food. And yes, we should, but the simple things that were cooked by the women in your family, please don't forget those recipes.
And if you're lucky enough that your mother and grandmother is still alive, go and learn. Because when they're gone, they take their recipes with them and you will be yearning your whole life searching for that fulfillment, that time that you always took for granted, that Easter table that you came was groaning with food or Christmas and Passover. You go there and all that food is already there and you enjoy it.
And the idea that someone was going to make that food that day, there will be a time when someone will not be there. So I do eat. Then I try and teach my kids this and Ramadan. I make sure that everybody around in my family, I cook. I cook in public. I distribute food because I want these young kids to remember, this is your heritage. Be proud of it.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so beautiful. All right. I can't think of a single other thing we need to talk about. I'm going to ask you a few little speed round questions.
Asma Khan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What's always in your fridge?
Asma Khan:
Ketchup.
Kerry Diamond:
Really? Homemade or do you buy it in the store?
Asma Khan:
No, I buy it. I buy ketchup, and I eat ketchup with everything because when I grew up in India, you didn't get anything.
Kerry Diamond:
People are going to laugh so hard because that's so American.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, but we always had ketchup with everything, whether it was with chicken or with meat or you just had with rice, dhal, and a vegetable. I ate ketchup with everything even with paratha, I love.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You're a ketchup girly.
Asma Khan:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What beverage do you start your day with?
Asma Khan:
Tea. Chai if I have the time to make chai, but I don't drink coffee. I don't drink coffee. I grew up in Bengal. We don't do coffee. I mean, now of course everybody drinks coffee in India because they think that's what the Westerners drink, and so let's all drink coffee because we are so cool and we are going to be as progressive as the West. You're not. Coffee doesn't make you bloody progressive. You've got to change your mindset.
But yeah, I drink tea. And I struggle, I've just come out of Ramadan. Oh my God, I used to get up and that's the first thing. I have a headache, I want tea. And I have to wait till sunset to have that first cup of tea. I love tea.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?
Asma Khan:
I am actually in this stage where I have not watched anything, which is crazy because I've been editing stuff. So I saw “Bridgerton” and I loved it, and I loved the fact that there were all these dark skinned, beautiful women. Two of them are very close friends of mine, Simone Ashley and Charithra. I started watching because of them, but then I got hooked on this whole story and I love it.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you watch the first one?
Asma Khan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
With Regé-Jean?
Asma Khan:
Oh my God, he's so good-looking.
Kerry Diamond:
He's in that new movie, “Black Bag.”
Asma Khan:
I know. Someone told me.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. That's a great movie, by the way. What's on your travel bucket list? Anywhere you haven't been that you want to go?
Asma Khan:
Samarkand. I want to go to Central Asia. The roots of my heritage and where I come from, the first Mughal King Babur came from that land. I've always wanted to go to Samarkand and taste the food, the pilau. The pilau came from there. Central Asia is fabulous for all of this, and the blue tiles.
So part of Islamic history and art and architecture and food is that's the origin where a lot of came from. Of course, anyone who's Persian who will listen to this will say no, it's all from Persia. It came from both places. That's the place I want to go. It's not the easiest place to travel to, but I'm determined to go one day.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite snack food?
Asma Khan:
Samosa. But not this one, the one that is fried in an air fryer. Who fries a samosa in air fryer? I'm just appalled. I see all these videos of people. I think you kids, you're ruining the best deep-fried thing we have. Why are you destroying it by putting in an air fryer? You got deep-fry the samosa. That's part of the crunch.
Kerry Diamond:
Noted. Okay, last question, I have no idea where your answer is going to be, but we ask everybody this. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Asma Khan:
Oh my God.
Kerry Diamond:
I think I know who it wouldn't be, but I don't know who it would be.
Asma Khan:
There is a very, very big list. Actually, someone who you and I both know, Padma. I would love to be with Padma Lakshmi. I adore her. She is fascinating because she's from a different culture from me. She's in the South, but her love for her grandmother, her respect for women, her simplicity in memories of remembering things.
We were having this conversation and she was saying that her grandmother would serve everybody. She kept a little bit of rice that she would add water to and then add a spoon of yogurt so that she and the servant could eat that at the end of it, and Padma knows that. I remember seeing my mother serving everybody, but keeping a little bit of food aside for herself and the servants so that the servants ate what my mother ate. Women ate last, girls eat least.
I think Padma and I, whenever we meet, we always end up in this kind of deeply emotional state. And doing “Top Chef” with her in London was fascinating and I was really interested because her world view, very different from me. And she's been exposed to different kinds of cuisine, but when she spoke about her own food, she knows her stuff. So yes, Padma.
Padma may not want to be with me. She don't have a choice. I get to choose, right? She would never choose me, but I choose her. I would love to be with Padma Lakshmi because I would learn so much. I think I don't know enough about her food culture.
Kerry Diamond:
She's one of the most popular responses.
Asma Khan:
Really?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Yeah. Her, Ina, Anthony Bourdain.
Asma Khan:
I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. She's just so smart.
Kerry Diamond:
She's so smart and her books are so good.
Asma Khan:
Yeah, so she's smart and I'm really looking forward to her new book.
Kerry Diamond:
Me too.
Asma Khan:
It's going to be amazing. It's going to be amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
“Padma's All American.” Well, we're all looking forward to your memoir, so you better get to it.
Asma Khan:
Yes. I love the fact that so many people came and told me, "You must write your story."
Kerry Diamond:
Well, Asma, thank you so much. I mean, I value our friendship so much. So grateful to Reese Witherspoon and the Hello Sunshine team.
Asma Khan:
Oh, she was great that she connected us.
Kerry Diamond:
For bringing us together. Your optimism gives me hope.
Asma Khan:
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. If you enjoyed this chat with Asma Khan, be sure to listen to our past episode with Asma, recorded live at the Hello Sunshine Shine Away conference. You heard Asma mentioned Padma Lakshmi, you can also find lots of past episodes with Padma. Be sure to give Radio Cherry Bombe a follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and leave a rating and a review. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in Manhattan. Our producers are Tarkor Zehn, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.