Clarice Lam Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Clarice Lam. Clarice is an award-winning pastry chef and the author of “Breaking Bao,” which was named a best cookbook of 2024 by the New York Times. She's also been on several cooking shows, including “Beat Bobby Flay” and “Best Baker in America.” Clarice has made a name for herself blending classic French techniques with the bold, exciting flavors of her Asian-American heritage. And trust me, her creations are as delicious as they are inventive. She tells me about growing up in L.A. and Hong Kong, about her snack-loving family and the lengths they will go to get said snacks, and how she went from a career as a model to a career as a pastry chef. Then we take a deep dive into her Char Siu Carnitas Bolo Bao from her book. These pillow-soft bao are filled with Chinese barbecue shredded pork and have a bolo top. What's a bolo top? You might ask. We're about to find out, so stay tuned for my chat with Clarice. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Peeps. Have you heard about Cherry Bombe's Jubilee? It's our annual conference for women in food, drink, and hospitality, and it's happening Saturday, April 12th in New York City. I always love being at Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry chefs, and cookbook authors. If you'd like to join us, you can get tickets at cherrybombe.com. If you're an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing. I hope to see you there.
Let's chat with today's guest. Clarice, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk bolo bao with you and so much more.
Clarice Lam:
Thanks for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I'd like to start with an early baking or baked good memory.
Clarice Lam:
My favorite baked good memory is actually sitting around the table with my mom and my sister, and we would make gai mei bao, which in Cantonese means chicken butt buns, but there's no chickens and no butts involved, and it's really just a Chinese coconut bun that you've probably seen at the Chinese bakery. My mom was not the most fantastic baker or a cook, but that was the one thing that she was so, so good at, and the one thing that we always sat around the table and made together. So that's my favorite.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Can you describe it? Is it like a milk bread situation, stuffed with something coconuty?
Clarice Lam:
Yes. It's a hundred percent a milk bread. It's a baked bun. It's a milk bread on the outside, and then she fills it with this delicious, shredded coconut and buttery mix, and it's really delicious. You can see it in different forms too. Sometimes if you go to the Chinese bakery, it looks like a spiral. Sometimes it looks like a cinnamon bun with coconut and it's a little bit yellow from Lion custard.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. I love coconut. That sounds so delicious. You tell a great story about being in the grocery store with your mom when you were little and screaming about chicken soup, and it was like a moment where your mother understood that you were kind of food-obsessed. Can you share that story? It's so cute.
Clarice Lam:
So this is a story that my mom told me. I don't remember. I mean, I don't remember anything before 11, but my mom remembers this story very vividly. We were at the supermarket and I was screaming, yelling about, "It smells like chicken noodle soup and I want some chicken noodle soup, and where's the chicken noodle soup?"
And my mom's like, "I have no idea what you're talking about." And so, she just kind of ignores me. And then, we're just going about doing our shopping, and then a couple aisles later, there's this woman who is serving samples of chicken noodle soup and she was like, "Whoa, my daughter has a great palate and a great nose."
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Would you say that you came from a food-obsessed family? I mean, I know you've said that your mom was not a great cook, not a great baker, but I also know that the dedication to your new book is all about your parents always telling you to eat. So I know there's an eating theme, but would you say the whole family was sort of interested in food and thinking about their next meal, and all of that?
Clarice Lam:
Yes. My family's definitely food-obsessed. I think it's pretty common for a lot of Asian cultures for their family to be food-obsessed, because obviously as a generalization, but I'm a first-generation American, and for first-generation Chinese Americans, it's very hard for their parents to emote and show love. So the way that they do it is by feeding you and telling you that you have to eat, and cutting up fruit, and giving you a plate of fruit and whatever. So it's just like eat, eat, eat. Definitely very food-obsessed.
My parents traveled a lot. We traveled a lot together as a family, and then they traveled a lot separately and they always brought back... Well, at first they would bring an extra suitcase to wherever they were going, so that they could bring it back filled with all these different snacks, and various treats and things from wherever they had been, so they could share it with my sister and I. That was the thing that we always looked forward to the most. It's like unwrapping a giant suitcase and it's like, oh, you just want to jump into there, like one of those ball things. What do you call those things that you jump into? You know what I mean, with the plastic balls?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes. Except it was snacks.
Clarice Lam:
Except it was snacks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So you were born in Toronto, and raised between L.A. and Hong Kong, where your parents had immigrated from, and moving between the two was hard. You never quite felt like you belonged in either place. Can you unpack that a little bit for us?
Clarice Lam:
Yeah. Yes. I was born in Toronto. We moved to Los Angeles when I was about five, and then we moved to Hong Kong for a couple of years from 10 to 12, but every year we would also, then we moved back to L.A., and then every summer we would go back to Hong Kong. But I never fit in. I was a very, very shy kid. Again, it was like first generation. My parents had no idea what they were doing. They're in a new country. Although my mom had been in Canada since high school and my dad went to university in Canada, they still weren't so aware of the culture, what it's like to raise a kid in America versus Hong Kong. So I had a really hard time. I also grew up in a very non-diverse neighborhood, and I was kind of seen as an outcast or I just never fit in.
I never really had new friends. When we moved to Hong Kong, my parents decided to put me in a French school for some reason, not even like, "Oh, let's put you in an American school in Hong Kong or a Chinese school in Hong Kong." It's like, "No, you must go to this French school."
So that was even weirder for me, because it's like, okay, so now I'm surrounded by all these fancy rich Europeans. I don't speak a lick of French and I'm learning French as I go. At that time, I had also went from third grade in America to fifth grade in this French school in Hong Kong. Everyone's yelling at me for not including a U in words, because they teach English in British English. It was just a very weird situation for me, and I didn't fit in over there either, so it was very hard for me to understand my identity or where I belonged. It was a really weird, strange time.
Jessie Sheehan:
You mentioned that your parents traveled and brought you snacks in suitcases, which I love so much, and that in some ways it was their travel and your own that exposed you to all these diverse cuisines, and ignited your passion. So I had a couple of questions. I was wondering where they were traveling to, and I also wondered, I'm assuming some of those visits you were little and your sister. Who stayed with you guys, who was babysitting and where were they going?
Clarice Lam:
Well, my dad went on business trips a lot, so he would go all over Asia. And then my mom, sometimes she would just go travel by herself, I guess, to have some alone time, and also mostly throughout Asia. We would travel together with my mom all throughout Europe and kind of everywhere else. So when both my mom and dad were gone, I think my grandma watched me. I think sometimes nobody watched us and I watched my sister.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Clarice Lam:
That kind of thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
There's also a great story. There was one trip where your dad tried to go on a trip and he wasn't going to be able to get all the snacks back, so your mother literally flew to meet him with an empty suitcase or something like that. Can you please tell this story? I love the places your family will go, both physically and metaphorically, to get snacks.
Clarice Lam:
To get snacks. It's like the most important thing on earth for them. It's so weird and wacky, and illogical, and ridiculous. My dad was going on a trip to China. He had gone to Costco to pick up all of these snacks in bulk that he could bring over to these people in China and give to them as gifts or whatever, and he gets to the airport with my mom. And the suitcase is, it's literally 50 pounds overweight, so it's like a whole other suitcase.
And so, instead of paying just the overweight charge or whatever, my mom was like, "Okay, just give it back to me. I'll buy a ticket to Hong Kong and I'll meet you in Hong Kong, and give you the snack."
So it's like my dad's going to mainland China, and then my mom a week later decides to fly to Hong Kong, and then my dad goes from mainland China to Hong Kong to meet my mom, to pick up the whole suitcase full of snacks, so that my mom can then refill that suitcase with her favorite snacks from Hong Kong to come back to the States. I mean, it's so ludicrous.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's such a good story.
Let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Cherry Bombe's next issue is all about love, and I think you're going to love the cover. It features Ilona, Olivia, and Adrianna Marr, the sister trio that has won everyone's hearts for their positive message of confidence and self-love. The issue is full of joyful stories and recipes. To snag a copy, head to cherrybombe.com or click the link in our show notes, or visit your favorite bookstore or culinary shop to pick up an issue.
Now, back to our guest. Tell us the story about trying to share your favorite candy, I imagine from Hong Kong, at show-and-tell in seventh grade.
Clarice Lam:
Yes. So in seventh-grade history class, this is in L.A., we were tasked with bringing in our favorite snack or something that represented our culture to share with the rest of the class. So this is show-and-tell. This is like, "Oh, let's everybody appreciate everyone's culture and see how diverse, and blah, blah, blah."
And I bring in a white rabbit candy, which now is a very iconic candy from Hong Kong. It's a milk candy and it looks like a Tootsie Roll. It kind of has that same texture, but now they're a little firmer. Back then, they used to be a lot chewier, and it's wrapped with a translucent rice paper.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it white?
Clarice Lam:
It's white.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Clarice Lam:
And so, I'm talking about this candy in front of the class, and then I hand it out to everyone, and everybody unwraps it. And they see this translucent rice paper and they're like, "Well, what is this? This is so weird. Ew, it's so gross."
And I'm like, "No, no, no, you just eat it." And they keep trying to pick it off and they can't pick it off, and then they get so frustrated they can't pick it off, and I'm like, "No, it doesn't taste like anything. It's just rice paper. You just eat it."
But they just got so frustrated. They thought I was so weird, and they thought it was so weird, that nobody touched it, and it went straight in the trash, and I was so heart... It's like, now I can kind of make light and fun of it, but at the time it was really traumatic for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
It sounds so heartbreaking. And I mean, I didn't have the exact same experience, obviously, but those show-and-tell moments. I mean, I'm triggered by just even hearing the word show-and-tell. It could be stressful.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah, because I was so amped too. I was like, "I'm going to show these kids how cool my food is." And then everyone was like, "Womp, womp."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Were you doing any baking or cooking at home when you were little, besides making those delicious coconut buns with your mom and sister? Was little Clarice into cooking and baking?
Clarice Lam:
Little Clarice was into cooking and baking, and as a matter of fact, I had a favorite cookbook back then. It was “Better Homes and Gardens,” and I forget exactly what it's called, but something like the children's cookbook, “Better Homes and Gardens” or something. I still remember my favorite recipe was a spaghetti pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. I put one of those in my new book.
Clarice Lam:
You did?
Jessie Sheehan:
I love spaghetti pie. You Just put it in a springform pan and bake that up. Oh my gosh, it's delicious.
Clarice Lam:
That was my favorite. And then, I had another favorite recipe that was a purple cow milkshake or something. It was, I don't know, grape and whatever. I really loved making the spaghetti pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
So cooking and baking were sort of a theme all through childhood and teenage years. And was there food TV? Were you obsessed with Food Network or Martha Stewart, or any of that stuff?
Clarice Lam:
I enjoyed watching “Yan Can Cook.” I did watch Food Network. I loved watching Food Network, but my dad would sometimes, occasionally watch “Yan Can Cook” and my last name is Lam, so he's like, "Oh yeah, Lam can cook." And so, I did like that. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So when you first left home after high school, you modeled internationally, and I believe it was when you were in Paris walking by patisseries and the boulangeries that you first realized, or you had an aha moment about studying pastry. Can you tell us about that?
Clarice Lam:
Yeah, I think because I enjoyed food so much and I realized how much food brought everybody together, I felt like it was something that I kind of secretly studied my whole life from childhood, because of just the influence and impact of everything that my parents always brought me. I knew that I would eventually want to become a chef. I kind of always assumed or thought that I would become a savory chef until I lived in Paris. It was funny, because I was sort of always the one that kind of took advantage of being able to go eat at all these fancy places. As a model, yes, you're not really supposed, I mean, I had an agency tell me and I was 5'10" in 107 pounds, and they were like, "You need to cut back."
And I'm just like, "No, I'm going to eat all the food."
And then it's like, "Oh, meanwhile you should go to this dinner tonight with whoever, whoever."
And you're at the Ritz in Paris, and it's like, "Okay, well then, I'm going to order everything," you know?
So I always knew that modeling wasn't going to last forever. It's whatever, very short-lived. So I knew that I wanted to do something in food and I thought I'd be a savory chef, but then I kind of had a couple of stages in London and I was like, "This really sucks." On the savory line, it's hot. Everyone's yelling at you, all these men around and they're drinking, and I'm just very annoyed. And then, I always noticed that the pastry kitchen is kind of off in the corner and it's much cooler. It's temperature controlled, and everybody minds their own business. It's quiet. When I lived in Paris, I was like-
Jessie Sheehan:
And were you still modeling, like during the day?
Clarice Lam:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, wow.
Clarice Lam:
But I was so just awestruck by the level of technical ability in all of these French pastries and just to be able to create something that for me was very aesthetically beautiful, and technical, and also delicious. It was very intriguing. I remember being like, "Oh, a mille-feuille is supposed to have a thousand layers. Fine. Let me try to count." And just, that kind of thing. I was just like, "I wonder how they do that. I want to be able to do that." So that's really what solidified me wanting to become a pastry chef instead.
Jessie Sheehan:
So then you ended up going to culinary school. The rest is history. You've written this incredible book. I wonder if you could describe for us your baking style.
Clarice Lam:
I feel like I have a lot of baking styles, but currently my baking style is very Asian flavor-based, but combined with a lot of global influences and techniques.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to talk about “Breaking Bao: 88 Bakes and Snacks from Asia and Beyond,” and it published in October of 2024. And 88 I learned is a significant number. Can you tell us about why it is 88 bakes?
Clarice Lam:
The number eight in general is a very auspicious number in a lot of Asian cultures. The number eight in Cantonese is baat, which sounds like faat, which means wealth and luck and prosperity. So Chinese people are very superstitious, so they always want everything to refer back to luck and wealth and prosperity. So this was something that my dad from childhood, he always just was obsessed with numbers to the point where even now my dad does this, and my sister does this, because she picked it up from my dad, but we'll go out to eat dinner. They'll leave a tip amount accordingly, within the range of 20 to 25%, or whatever. They'll make a random tip amount, so that the total number has the most eights in it, or it goes like one, two, three, four.
It's really strange, but my dad has always had this super obsession with all these lucky numbers. Three is a good number, eight's a good number, six is a good number. His license plate was like 168 or 888, or whatever. And it started off as me and my sister making fun of him, being like, "This is so ridiculous. You're constantly putting eights in everything." And then, it just became a thing where it's like, you make fun of something so much that in your head you decide it's cool.
Jessie Sheehan:
In the book, you sort of combine different cuisines from your travel and your career. Asian flavors combined with European baking and classical French techniques. I love the simplicity of the format. It's just sort of divided into three sections. We have the bao chapter, which we're going to focus on, the cakes and dessert chapter and the snacks chapter. I just think it's the simplicity of that is so nice. Was that something that you worked on with your editor or you always knew that that's how your book would be broken down?
Clarice Lam:
I did not always know. I knew that I, for sure, if it's called “Breaking Bao,” I must have a bao chapter. Otherwise, that's silly. I also knew that I must have a snacks chapter, because it's dedicated to my parents. Then I was like, "Well, it should have three, at least three chapters." So the second chapter, cakes and desserts, I wasn't really sure what to call it for a long time, until when I was writing down my list of 20 million recipe ideas, broke it down, divided up into sections, and then figured out that the second one should be cakes and desserts.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. All right, so the recipe we're going to discuss is Char Siu Carnitas Bolo Bao, which is baked Chinese barbecue shredded pork buns with a bolo top. Tell us why you hate it when people say bao buns.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah, it's one of my biggest pet peeves, but I also really exaggerate how much I hate it, just because I think it's funny to be so angry at something so futile. I don't like when people say bao buns. I don't know who ever decided to start calling it bao buns to begin with, because it's redundant. That's like you're not going to French bakery and being like, "Give me a baguette bread."
It's just totally redundant. It's like saying chai tea or things that I'm sure a lot of other cultures have things that they get very upset about. But the word bao in Chinese, it just refers to any kind of bread. It can be a baked bread, a steamed bread, fried bread. It sort of covers all ground on anything bread. It can also mean like a treasure or a gift, or something wrapped. So in my book, my chapter bao encompasses anything that falls under any of those categories.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your favorite thing to get in bakeries when you lived in Hong Kong, maybe it still is true, was the bolo bao, which is a pineapple bun. Can you tell us about a pineapple bun, which actually has no pineapple in there?
Clarice Lam:
No pineapple. The bolo bao is probably one of the most iconic Chinese baked goods. If you've been in any sort of Chinese bakery, you've definitely seen it before. It's got a milk bread-based bun, and then the top is like a yellow sugary cookie topping. I kind of say that it's very similar to a concha or the Japanese melon pan. It's all the same theory, just nice pillowy soft, sweet bread at the bottom, and then a sugar cookie, crusty top. So the bolo, which means pineapple in Cantonese, refers to how it looks, not because there's actually any pineapple. It's supposed to look like the rind of a pineapple.
Jessie Sheehan:
These buns basically are filled with your take on a Chinese barbecued pork, which is roasted carnitas style. And this particular recipe is made up of two of the most well-known Chinese baked goods, which is char siu and bao, which is a barbecued pork bun, which are my favorite, and bolo bao, which are the pineapple buns. And you also mentioned, which I love, that following this recipe, you don't have to fill the buns with the pork if you just want to make this recipe for a sweet bun with the beautiful bolo top.
So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to make the carnitas. So we're going to preheat the oven to 325 and then in a nine-inch square baking dish, a roasting pan, we'll combine boneless pork shoulder or butt, garlic, white pepper, some vegetable oil, some kosher salt, and we're going to toss that to coat evenly. Cover the baking dish with foil and roast for about an hour and a half. We'll then remove the pork from the oven, reserve a quarter cup of the juice and drain the rest. And then, in a two-cup liquid measuring cup, we're going to whisk together some granulated sugar and some honey. I wondered if there was a particular type of honey that you like?
Clarice Lam:
I like wildflower or orange blossom honey. And then, I always just try to use whatever honey is local, just I think it's better and it helps with your allergies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Honey, soy sauce. Brand of soy sauce?
Clarice Lam:
I use a low-sodium Kikkoman.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that too.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
With a green top.
Clarice Lam:
The green one.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's my fave, I love it that Clarice and I like the same soy sauce. There's also hoisin sauce in this recipe. What brand of hoisin sauce?
Clarice Lam:
I use Lee Kum Kee.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Oyster sauce. What brand of oyster sauce?
Clarice Lam:
I also use Lee Kum Kee.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice. And then, finally Shaoxing wine, which is Chinese rice wine. Can you find that just at the Asian grocery store as well?
Clarice Lam:
Yes, you can. And I don't even know what the brand is that I use, because it's written in Chinese and I'm a terrible Chinese person. I can't read or write. I can only kind of speak at a five-year-old level of Cantonese.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. And then, we're going to add some brown sugar, some sesame oil, and some five-spice powder. Again, will you just buy that at the Asian grocery store?
Clarice Lam:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to pour all this over the pork in the pan with the reserved juices. Toss to coat, re-cover the pan with foil and roast for an hour longer until the pork is cooked through. The sauce is absorbed. The meat's tender. We'll remove the foil with two forks. We'll let it come to room temp and then we'll chill it. I assume we chill, because it's easier to fill the buns when it's cold?
Clarice Lam:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. So we want to put that into the refrigerator, then we're going to make the shokupan, the Japanese milk bread. You've said that milk bread is one of the most common recipes in Asian baking. So we're going to make shokupan or Japanese milk bread. So milk bread, start with a tangzhong, which is like a roux-like mixture of milk or water and flour, cooked on the stove top until resembles a paste. Then once the paste is cooled, we add it to the dough. It's going to give our shokupan signature soft, feathery texture. So first things first, we're going to make the tangzhong in a small pot. We'll add some whole milk, some water, and some bread flour. Brand of bread flour?
Clarice Lam:
King Arthur.
Jessie Sheehan:
King Arthur. And we're going to whisk that to combine, bring it to a boil over medium high heat and then continue whisking until a thick paste forms, about a minute, transfer it to a small bowl and cool it to room temp. Then we'll make the dough in the bowl of our stand mixer fitted with the dough hook attachment. We're going to add some bread flour, a quarter cup of our tangzhong, and we're discarding the rest. Is it the kind of thing, are there any other purposes for it, the way you use a little bit of starter and can make something else with the rest?
Clarice Lam:
I mean, you can absolutely save it if you're making a lot of shokupan or milk bread. I'll just make a giant batch of tangzhong and keep it as a fridge, and then just pull from it when I need it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to add granulated sugar, some eggs, some cream, some milk, milk powder. Is there a brand? And then, also tell us about why we're including that ingredient.
Clarice Lam:
So I use milk powder just to, I think it helps tenderize it just a little bit more and it gives it more of a milkier, because it's milk bread, milky kind of flavor. It's important to use full fat milk powder, which I think sometimes can be hard to find, but you just have to know where to go. So go to the baby aisle in the supermarket.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you'll find it.
Clarice Lam:
And you'll find it. I've used Nido, Nestle brand of milk powder. It's literally for babies. They have some other fancier brands, but as long as it's-
Jessie Sheehan:
Does Carnation also make one? Carnation Milk powder?
Clarice Lam:
Yes. Yes. Yeah, they do. They do.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that a Clarice thing or does everybody put milk powder in their milk bread?
Clarice Lam:
It's not a Clarice thing, but it's also not everybody puts it in their milk bread.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that's really smart. Yeah, I feel like milk powder is a sneaky ingredient, like Christina Tosi uses a lot. Yes, she does different baked goods, and then we're also going to add some instant yeast. And are you always an instant yeast person as opposed to active dry?
Clarice Lam:
I always use instant yeast. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. Kosher salt, and we're going to mix all of this on low speed for three minutes. Then we'll increase the speed to medium and mix for an additional seven minutes. So with the mixer running, we're now going to add room temperature, unsalted butter, and it's only like two tablespoons. So this is not an enriched dough. We're not going for a buttery flavor, and we're going to do several cubes at a time, allowing the dough to come back together before adding more. And then, once all the butter is added, we'll mix on medium speed until fully incorporated, about two minutes, and the dough will be sticky at this point. So we're going to grease a large bowl. You like metal bowls from restaurant days? Do you like a glass bowl? What kind of bowl is Clarice-
Clarice Lam:
I always use metal bowls, but that's just because that's what I have.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Clarice Lam:
I'm not opposed to a glass bowl. If you have a glass bowl, use a glass bowl. If you have stainless steel, use stainless steel, but I always have stainless steel bowls.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to grease the bowl with nonstick spray or vegetable oil. Which do you use?
Clarice Lam:
Nonstick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. So we're going to place the dough into the bowl and we're going to cover with the tea towel. A tea towel will still let air in, and that you're better off putting plastic wrap or a shower cap, because when the air gets in, then the bread can form a skin and then it can't proof. What is your opinion on dish towel versus plastic wrap?
Clarice Lam:
For me, it depends on what type of bread I'm making. I wrote tea towel, but I have also just done it with plastic wrap. I kind of feel like it's either or. If I'm in Florida, for example, and I'm making all this stuff, and it's like 99 degrees outside, and humid as all hell, then I'm going to put a tea towel, because I know that this dough is already a little bit sticky and it doesn't need to contain any extra condensation.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, makes sense. Makes sense. So it's sort of based on your environment.
Clarice Lam:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So then we're going to let the dough proof until it's doubled in size, about one and a half to two hours. Then we'll punch the dough down, turn it onto a lightly floured work surface. I'm always curious about this, but when you're working with a recipe with bread flour, is your bench flour bread or do you throw down AP, or you don't even think about it?
Clarice Lam:
I throw down bread flour, but there have been times where it's like, "Oh, I had just enough bread flour to make the recipe, so I'll dust the bench with AP, it's fine."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Okay, so we're going to punch the dough down and turn it out onto a lightly floured work surface. Flatten the dough with our hands to release any remaining air bubbles, and then line two 13 by 17 inch baking sheets, which are basically half sheet pans, with parchment paper and portion out the dough into 12 equal pieces. I'm assuming you're using a scale.
Clarice Lam:
I'm using a scale, other 50 grams.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Then we're going to lightly dust the work surface with flour, which maybe we already have done. We're going to take one portion of dough, flatten it out using the palm of our hand, add a heaping tablespoon or two of the chilled carnitas to the center of the dough, fold all the edges inward and pinch shut. Should loosely resemble a dumpling at this point, right? It's kind of pinched at the top, almost like a little sack.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to turn it seam side down onto the work surface and roll it into a tight ball. Is there a technique that you're using when you're rolling into a tight ball, or is it more that you're just placing the palm of your hand on the ball and moving your hand around in a circle?
Clarice Lam:
I shape it like you would shape any kind of bun, where you kind of try to keep the center of the bottom of the ball sort of within the same spot, and just move it around.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your hand is almost like a claw on top of the bun.
Clarice Lam:
Yes. It's almost like a claw on top of the bun, but with these, you don't really have to go so hard, because I think once you shut it and you just roll it a little bit, but you don't want to press too hard, so that the top layer gets so thin that the meat comes through. You know what I mean?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So yeah, it's about being gentle.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to repeat with the remaining dough pieces. We'll place six buns on each sheet. Cover each loosely with a tea towel and let proof until doubled in size, about an hour. Now we're going to make the bolo topping, pineapple topping. In the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with the paddle attachment, we'll combine unsalted room temp butter and granulated sugar. We'll mix on low speed and then move it up to medium until it's light and fluffy, about two minutes. We'll scrape our sides. Then we'll add the egg yolks one at a time, allowing the mixture to come back together before adding the next. Is bolo ever made with whole eggs or it's always a yolk situation for that yellow color?
Clarice Lam:
Yes. Usually with the yolks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Then we'll scrape down sides of the bowl. We'll mix on medium speed until incorporated, about a minute. Scrape down again, I love all of your scraping instructions. We'll add some all-purpose flour, some custard powder. So tell us about custard powder. Tell us where we buy it. Again, is this a Clarice thing or do all bolo toppings have custard powder?
Clarice Lam:
I think most bolo toppings have custard powder. So the brand that I use is called Lion, Lion brand, and you can find it in most Asian grocery stores, or you can also just get it online at whatever marketplace. But that brand is the specific brand that I think that Chinese people use for this purpose, because it's very yellow.
Jessie Sheehan:
For the color?
Clarice Lam:
Yes, for the color.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And it's custard powder, like pudding mix?
Clarice Lam:
Yes. Yes, it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
Baking powder and kosher salt. Then we're going to mix until the dough comes together in a shaggy ball, about 30 seconds. Then we'll divide the dough in half, place one portion in between two sheets of parchment, basically half sheet size pieces of parchment, like 12 by 16 inches, and we're going to roll out the dough into a thin layer, about an eighth of an inch thick, and basically we're trying to roll it out so it is that same size as that piece of parchment.
Clarice Lam:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
How finicky should we be? Should we be peeling up a side, grabbing a little that's going out one side? No, don't worry about it.
Clarice Lam:
No, don't worry about it. As long as it's about an eighth of an inch thick, it's totally fine, because you're going to stamp out circles anyway.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to place the sheet of rolled dough onto a baking sheet and we'll refrigerate it until ready to use, and we'll repeat it with the other portion. Now we're going to heat the oven to 375 and make an egg wash. I love this egg wash. It's very involved. So I'm in a small bowl. We're going to add an egg. Egg yolks, whole milk, kosher salt, whisk until smooth. Then we're pouring it through a fine mesh sieve to strain out solid bit. Okay. Tell me everything, is this like a pastry chef egg wash?
Clarice Lam:
Yes, this is the egg wash. This is the egg wash that I learned at Bouchon.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. I love it. And then, do you literally just make yourself a quart size container of it and always have it in the fridge?
Clarice Lam:
Yeah. If I'm baking a lot, I'll just have a pint or a quart on hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
But if it's like a one-off and you're just like, "Oh, I'm craving bao," would you just make a small version of this?
Clarice Lam:
Yeah, I would just do a one whole egg, a one egg yolk and then-
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Clarice Lam:
... I usually just save the rest and then use it later.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. The whole thing is so exciting to me. The straining out the solid, but that's brilliant, because then you don't have the weird white that's hanging off of the pastry. I was taught to use an egg plus salt, because the salt can break down the white and plus it's a little bit of flavor, and then, but this is next level egg wash, Clarice.
Clarice Lam:
I like my baked goods with nice color. I like it when it's brown. I feel like a lot of times when you see people make things at home, it gets that weird pale yellow color when you take it out of the oven, and that's not what I'm about. I want it to look as professional as possible, like a nice brown color.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. Yeah, I love it. I might have to pick up on Clarice's egg wash. So we're going to remove the sheets of bolo dough from the fridge. We're going to peel off the top pieces of parchment paper. Then we're going to take that piece of parchment and lay it back on top of the dough, but it's not attached, sticking. Then we're going to flip the whole thing onto the work surface and peel off that top piece that is still sticking. So now the dough is on a piece of parchment, but it's not stuck to that parchment. Brilliant.
I was first going to say, what about flouring the work surface? But we don't need to, because the bolo dough is on top of the parchment. Then we're going to use a three and a half inch circle cookie cutter. Do you have a favorite cookie cutter brand?
Clarice Lam:
I think I just have Ateco.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have those two. We'll use three and a half inch circle cookie cutter to cut out 12 discs. We'll save the scraps, re-roll them between two sheets of parchment, cut more discs and repeat until the dough runs out. Three and a half inches seems large. Do they shrink when they're on the bao or is it the idea that they kind of not melt, but bake down and around?
Clarice Lam:
They don't shrink, but the bao grows. So we want it to cover the bao generously.
Jessie Sheehan:
So when you, we're not at that stage yet, but when we have our bao, we're going to egg wash it. Then when we place our bolo on top, it'll basically be the same circumference as the proof?
Clarice Lam:
It will even look bigger. It'll look a little bit bigger, but so that after it bakes it will drape around the side.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that was my question. That was the word I was looking for. Drape. That's a hard one. So now we're going to egg wash the tops of the buns, and that's so the bolo disc will stick, since the bao is going to be covered in bolo, so you won't be able to see that color necessarily. So should we egg wash before we put on top, or should we egg wash the bao, then put the disc on top, then egg wash the disc?
Clarice Lam:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. So everything's egg washed. Then we're going to bake the buns until golden brown, about 25 to 30 minutes, rotating halfway through baking. I always ask guests about rotating. I was trained to rotate, so I rotate always. Do you rotate always or just depending on the oven?
Clarice Lam:
Depending on the oven, but I think all ovens need rotation.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, me too. I can't imagine people whose ovens... I have so many hot spots.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah. I've never worked with a single oven, commercial or otherwise, where it's perfectly even. So I always rotate, flip it around horizontal, vertical, all of the things.
Jessie Sheehan:
All of the rotations. So we rotate halfway through baking. Then we'll allow the buns to cool on the baking sheets or on wire racks until room temperature.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about any other kind of favorite recipes? What would you say the gateway recipe is? Is there one recipe that you feel people should start with maybe? Wasn't there like the granita that you say is probably the easiest recipe?
Clarice Lam:
It's the easiest. The Thai tea gelati recipe in my book. That's definitely the easiest recipe. It's a gelati in the sense of the Italian American version, where you have a sort of granita or slushy layered with ice cream, and then another layer of slushy and then another layer of ice cream. So I make basically a Thai tea granita, and then I make a no churn condensed milk, which is super easy, and it all comes together in literally 10 minutes. You basically make a Thai iced tea, plop it in the freezer, and then scrape, and then you make your no churn ice cream, plop it in the freezer, and then you just assemble it.
Jessie Sheehan:
What about something that's more complicated than that, but also a good recipe that is representative of the book or representative of you?
Clarice Lam:
I think the gateway recipe for the book is probably the chocopan, because a lot of the recipes stem from using this milk bread. There are things that I love making. I love to make the pork floss and scallion focaccia is one of the things that I make the most.
Jessie Sheehan:
Describe that. It sounds so good.
Clarice Lam:
So it's a focaccia and everybody has their preference when it comes to focaccia, but I like a focaccia that's lighter and crispier on the outside, and kind of lighter and fluffier, and chewy on the inside. And then I top it with pork floss, which is a Chinese ingredient that I feel like is extremely underrated.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so good. I'm obsessed with pork floss.
Clarice Lam:
It's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God.
Clarice Lam:
So you find it in these huge jars at the Asian supermarket, and it looks like brown cotton candy that's shredded up, and it's basically marinated pork that's been shredded and dehydrated, and then shredded and dehydrated, over and over and over again until it turns into this cotton candy like texture. And it's sweet and salty, and savory, and umami all at the same time. It has so much flavor and such a little bite. So I top my focaccia with that and some fresh green onions or scallions, and it's really good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is the focaccia recipe milk bread based?
Clarice Lam:
No. Yeah, it's literally, it's just flour, water, olive oil. That's it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. It sounds incredible.
Clarice Lam:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Clarice, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Clarice Lam:
Oh, thanks for having me. You are my cherry pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.