Claudia Fleming Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, a brand new baking podcast from Cherry Bombe. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, Snackable Bakes. Each episode I'm hanging with world-class bakers and taking a deep dive into their signature baked goods. We are so honored to kick off She's My Cherry Pie with the legendary Claudia Fleming. She truly is the pastry chef's pastry chef. Claudia has inspired so many folks in the industry through her work at Gramercy Tavern, her 2001 cult classic, The Last Course, which was reissued in 2019, and her current role at Daily Provisions in New York City. I'm talking to Claudia about her chocolate caramel tart. She introduced this dessert at Gramercy Tavern in the 90s, and it became one of the most copied restaurant desserts ever. Claudia joins me to talk about the surprising inspiration for the tart. Hint, it's a candy and she walks me through the recipe, plus her tips, tricks, and favorite ingredients. If you want to make Claudia's chocolate caramel tart at home, and I hope you do, you can find the recipe in our show notes. We also talk about Claudia's incredible career and her latest book, Delectable: Sweet & Savory Baking.
Thank you to Le Creuset and California Prunes for sponsoring today's episode. Since She's My Cherry Pie is a brand new podcast, I have a few favors to ask. First, I would love for you to subscribe to the show via your favorite podcast platform. Feel free to leave a five-star rating. Yes, folks, I'm asking for five and a review and let me know what bakers and baked goods you'd like me to feature on future episodes. Also, you can subscribe to our free baking newsletter at cherrybombe.com. You'll receive it each week before the show airs, so you'll know about the signature baked good and special guest ahead of time.
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Let's chat with today's guest, Claudia. So happy to have you here on, She's My Cherry Pie, and so excited to talk about your infamous chocolate caramel tart among other things.
Claudia Fleming:
I am delighted and honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course. So first question, just for those that don't know, can you give us a little info about how you got into baking? I like to think of it as the ballerina to baker story.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh, way back then. I came to New York to dance and as all good struggling artists. I used that word very loosely. I worked in restaurants for its flexibility, and I very quickly realized I wasn't going to be in the Paul Taylor Dance Company. So I started pursuing other things and I loved working in the restaurant industry. I loved the pace, I loved the creativity, and I loved the fact that there was showtime every night. So for me, there was a natural transition into working in the restaurant industry professionally, deciding to make that my life's work. I became very attracted to working in the kitchen, and at a certain point I was working at Jams then, the Seminole, California, restaurant in New York City in the 80s. And I asked Jonathan Waxman, the chef and owner, if I could work in the kitchen for a bit, and he said, "Oh, yeah, sure, sure." So I started just going in in the afternoons and helping prep and I was smitten. I got bit by the bug, by the cooking bug, and just continued working in restaurants and here I am.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so funny because I, although I keep it a secret, I'm a recovering actress, and when I came to New York City, I was always a waitress. I loved the camaraderie of the kitchen. I loved the way the kitchen moved and how they all did it, but, unlike you, I never thought, "Oh, I want to be back there."
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. I guess when I realized I was going to do that for a long period of time, the front of the house, unlike today, didn't have the same kind of trajectory or prestige and not that working in the kitchen had prestige back then either, but it was something that I felt more comfortable doing.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then it was pretty fast that you made it from maybe the more savory side of the kitchen to the pastry side of the kitchen?
Claudia Fleming:
I was working at Union Square Cafe on the savory side of the kitchen, wanted to get out of New York City for the summer and went to Aspen. A friend of Jonathan's had a restaurant there and asked if I could work there for the summer, and I did. And I came back to New York City in the fall, and Michael Romano, the chef at Union Square, said, "There's nothing available in the kitchen right now, but the pastry chef needs an assistant. Any interest?" "Absolutely." At that point in my career, wanting to learn anything and actually still feel the same, and I never left.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I started older than most people, and the pastry world offered a little bit more autonomy. Working restaurants, it's very piecemeal. You don't actually really put a whole dish together. You're the protein cook and you put the protein on, you're the veg cook, you put the veg on, you're the saucier, you put the sauce on. In the pastry department that's so much smaller, you did everything. You did the prep, you did the production, you did the plating, you did the break, you did everything. I liked that. I liked that I saw everything from its inception to its ending.
Jessie Sheehan:
For those that don't know, could you describe what you think your dessert style is? I know you've been described as treating desserts like a cook and of thinking of flavor first, if you think that's a pretty good description of what you do, could you unpack that a little bit for us?
Claudia Fleming:
I do think that's a very good description. I started out as a cook, And part of being in the pastry department in the dessert world was, again, somewhat mercenary. I knew I would go farther faster in pastry than I would on the savory line. It was somewhat unusual at that point for women, and I wasn't as strong at a certain point, shame on me, didn't think I could compete, but probably today it wouldn't be an issue. I fell in love with the pastry side of things. So there was always that cook's mentality I think. On the line, you're putting on the protein, you're putting on the veg, you're putting on the sauce, and that rhythm and that component aspect stayed with me forever. And that was how my style developed, because I was wanting to put these different elements on the plate and somewhat deconstruct classic desserts and turn them into components to create more of a dish than a pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your first book is The Last Course. How did that come to be? Did somebody approach you and say, "Oh, you're making all these delicious desserts and this tart is viral." Or they probably didn't use that term, but how did The Last Course come to be?
Claudia Fleming:
Danny introduced me to David Black.
Jessie Sheehan:
And can you tell people who Danny is, just in case they don't know?
Claudia Fleming:
So Danny Meyer, who is the owner of Gramercy Tavern, introduced me to David Black, who was a very well known and more so now agent, who frequented the restaurant and said, "Why don't you sit down and talk to David, see if there's something there?" And so after several conversations with David, he said, "I think there's something here." So I wrote a proposal and he shopped it around and Random House decided to publish.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing. And this book is described as a cult classic. Why?
Claudia Fleming:
I don't even know what that means.
Jessie Sheehan:
Why did it? I know. I don't think I do either, but all I can say is what I know is that I happen to have bought a copy when it came out in the early 2000's, but very shortly it was completely sold out and then now reprinted in 2019.
Claudia Fleming:
Okay. So I don't know that it sold out so quickly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Honestly, I do not have the stats on that at all. But in retrospect, I think the book came out in October of 2001, right after 9/11. And so I felt like maybe it just went unnoticed, and then at a certain point it got noticed and you couldn't get it. And people want what they can't have.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course.
Claudia Fleming:
So I think that created this, as you say, cultish…
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
...phenomenon around it, and the fact that it didn't get reprinted made people want it more.
Jessie Sheehan:
The only thing I'll say because you're being humble, is that so many established, amazing pastry chefs think of The Last Course as one of, if not their Bible, one of them. So it clearly, I think you're right. And I'm just like that. If something's not available, I'm like, please can I have 10? So I get that exactly. But I also know that people who do this for a living, this is, and I'm patting my copy from the early two thousands, want this book, your newest book, Delectable, which came out this past fall, kind of a new chapter for you, a homecoming as it were. It's been described as being for home bakers. What does that mean? As I do, I read my cookbooks cover to cover as many of us do. It's not hard, but it's not easy peasy. There's some bread roux, there's this, there's that. Talk to me about this idea of being for home bakers, being a homecoming.
Claudia Fleming:
I want to say it's for home bakers because I baked it from my home, and as I'm sure you've heard, it was during the pandemic and I was in my little rental cottage on the east end of Long Island with an electric stove oven and no air conditioning and no dishwasher. I think I spent more time washing dishes than I did cooking, actually. And whilst it was an incredible time, it was incredibly challenging, and I found myself at the grocery store with my mask on of course, not being able to get yeast and not being able to get flour and not being able to get sugar and all kinds of things. So it brought me to a pretty basic place. Of course, I started ordering things online when it got to the point where I was like, "Okay, this is ridiculous. I'm going to start shopping online." I began just making and baking things I wanted to eat, as opposed to focusing on what I thought other people wanted to eat.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love, I think I read this, that you kind of wrote the book just as you used to develop recipes for the restaurant in this sense of seasonally.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And partly also, of course, the influence of the pandemic, but when it was summer, you were working on recipes that used the produce from the summer.
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
When it was the winter, it was apples.
Claudia Fleming:
And that was inbred, I think from Gramercy, whenever people say to me, "What inspires your desserts?" And I, the seasons, first thing, think about a banana in July? I don't know.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Not going to happen.
Claudia Fleming:
Not going to happen.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Thank you to California Prunes for sponsoring this episode of She's My Cherry Pie. What do California Prunes have to do with baking? You might ask, the answer is everything. First, prunes are a great ingredient on their own when it comes to baking. Imagine a California Prune bread with pecans and cardamom or a ginger prune snacking cake or thumbprint cookies with a jammy prune filling. Second, if you're looking to make some healthy baking ingredient swaps, you can use prune purée as a replacement for sugar, oil or even eggs in certain baked goods. Homemade prune purée is so simple. It's prunes and water blended together, and the purée keeps in your fridge for up to four weeks. And third, snacking, California Prunes are a super snack because they're loaded with nutrients like vitamin K, dietary fiber, potassium, and antioxidants, all of which are good for your heart, gut, and bones.
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Okay. So I want to talk about the chocolate caramel tart, and in The Last Course there are tarts. So I might go in and out of plural. I don't want the peeps to think I don't know what I'm talking about, but in The Last Course they're called tarts in Delectable, it's a single tart, but it's a very iconic, influential dessert. Could you describe it before we jump into it?
Claudia Fleming:
It is a chocolate cookie crust, sablée crust, as we call it in the biz, with caramel, which is sugar with butter and cream and lots of salt in my case. Topped with a bittersweet chocolate ganache. I like to use at least 70% cacao. And a ganache is very simply, hot cream and chocolate that makes a delicious, glossy confection. That can be anything from a frosting to a truffle.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love what inspired this dessert. It's a candy, and I did not even know this, even though this is one of my favorite candies, and I'm sorry.
Claudia Fleming:
Is that right?
Jessie Sheehan:
So I want to hear, in Claudia's own words, because I can say it. Tell us with the candy that inspired the tart.
Claudia Fleming:
Rolos.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that so much. I don't know if people realize, because chocolate and caramel now seems like, "Oh, of course, if I'm going to get a chocolate cake, I'm going to get a caramel filling." Just so people understand, when Claudia was first creating these tarts at Gramercy Tavern, this was not a thing. I read about a great story, or I don't know, great to me, but when you went to the Chocolate Show in Paris.
Claudia Fleming:
So I was very privileged to be able to attend the Chocolate Show in Paris in... When would that have been? The late 90s. Yeah, late 90s. And I was at a chocolate tasting at the Chocolate Show, and somebody put sea salt on the chocolate, and it was an epiphany. It was unbelievable. My chocolate just became chocolatier and more nuanced, and you tasted all the other underlying notes and it just blew my mind. And the chocolate caramel tart was already in production and we were already serving it, but when I came back to New York, the salt went on the tart.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so brilliant.
Claudia Fleming:
And I think it's just, it made it, and I have to also say that I don't love cake. I don't love cupcakes. I don't, I'm not a…
Jessie Sheehan:
Frosting.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. I'm always looking or was looking to take things down to a very basic and intense flavor experience because I also believe very strongly in moderation and I like to pack as much flavor into small things. Another epiphany, I was at my aunt's once and she had a bowl of candies. I don't remember what they were, and I kept eating them and eating them, and I was never getting satisfied. And I'm like, huh? Intentionally, candy companies make things that you never get satiated so that you just eat the whole bag. But if you have one perfect piece of chocolate, it's enough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. You can stop.
Claudia Fleming:
You can stop.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Okay. As you said, it's this chocolate pastry shell, unsalted butter confection, why confectioner rather than granulated?
Claudia Fleming:
Confectioner sugar has a little bit of cornstarch in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Claudia Fleming:
It's a little drier and gives a little more of a crumble.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it more tender?
Claudia Fleming:
Tenderizer.
Jessie Sheehan:
A little bit?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Cornstarch is a tenderizer. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Unsweetened cocoa powder, an egg yolk, which is sort of like the binder.
Claudia Fleming:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
One query I had, just about both the cocoa powder that's in the dough, and then the chocolate that's in the ganache, a favorite brand?
Claudia Fleming:
Grocery stores have come such a long way.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I mean, you can get a Guittard at the grocery store, and since that's what I was trying to do, I was trying to make everything as accessible as possible. That was the chocolate I used for Delectable and I love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do they have a cocoa powder as well?
Claudia Fleming:
They do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it natural or Dutch processed?
Claudia Fleming:
It's natural.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. This is a question I'm always curious about. When are you using Dutch processed, if ever? If I was making cookie dough, I would probably put in Dutch because I love the color.
Claudia Fleming:
The color.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. It's a visual thing, really, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
It is. Yeah. Do you ever turn to Dutch processed or you stick to natural because it's easier for people?
Claudia Fleming:
I do use Dutch processed for the sake of the books.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
And accessibility. I use natural.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Makes sense. The salt that you might put inside of the dough or the caramel, is it different than your finishing salt?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Talk to me about that.
Claudia Fleming:
Diamond Crystal kosher salt is my go-to for cooking.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Claudia Fleming:
For finishing salt, I use Maldon.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. And in a pinch, I'm assuming you can kind of break up your Maldon and throw it in if you had to?
Claudia Fleming:
Sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Sure. And vice versa.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you're developing, let's say for the book, are you trying to use a table salt or a fine sea salt that's not... You developed with kosher as well?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. It just seems like that's what people have at this point.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Yes. I think so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I think so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Flour, you have a brand that either you tested with…
Claudia Fleming:
King Arthur.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. Me too.
Claudia Fleming:
King Arthur is my go-to flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
And did you test with it for the book? Yeah, me as well. Tell me your go-to vanilla.
Claudia Fleming:
I have been so fortunate in the last couple of years, friends and relatives are making vanilla extract.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God.
Claudia Fleming:
I haven't bought it in forever.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's amazing.
Claudia Fleming:
But the brand that I would buy…
Jessie Sheehan:
Nielsen-Massey?
Claudia Fleming:
Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
If I'm forced to purchase my own vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's what you'll get.
Claudia Fleming:
If my cousin's not making it for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I'll get Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just quickly, because I know it's not hard, how do you make vanilla at home?
Claudia Fleming:
Vanilla beans and vodka.
Jessie Sheehan:
Vodka, yeah. And the caramel is kind of sugar, water, corn syrup, butter, heavy cream, and a little bit of crème fraîche. Yeah. Talk to us about the addition of the crème fraîche in that caramel.
Claudia Fleming:
Just trying to take down the sweetness of it a little bit. Cream is very sweet, and obviously sugar is very sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
The chocolate ganache, as you said, 70 to 85%.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh 85's high.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's too high.
Claudia Fleming:
85's high. 70-76.
Jessie Sheehan:
70-76. Okay, perfect. This is what I love. So there's a pinch of salt, but in the book, it's optional because it wasn't the way we think of salt now. It's just fascinating to me how different it was.
Claudia Fleming:
It's very interesting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love this. There's your head note, you have to explain to people why you're doing it. It's amazing. I'm just going to remind you, but there's a whole part where you say, "Look, have some guests over. Have them take a little taste without the salt, then sprinkle a tiny bit on top of a bite and then see what they say." And it's just so wonderful. I'm like getting goosebumps because I'm like a freak or a nerd.
Claudia Fleming:
Let's go with nerd.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good. But I love this idea that this was just a different time in pastry and dessert, and that people might have been like, "Claudia, is that sugar on top?" And you would've, "No, that's salt on top." And you said you had to explain, it's rounding out the buttery sweetness of caramel makes the chocolate flavor pop. Think chocolate-covered pretzel. Which is so funny because now people are like, "Duh, of course."
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Okay. The tools and assembly. So to make the crust, I know you call for a stand mixer with a paddle. Could you do this in a food processor or your…
Claudia Fleming:
Sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Either one.
Claudia Fleming:
I did a lot of the dough in a food processor in Delectable. The biggest difference between The Last Course and Delectable is, The Last Course was restaurant perspective, and Delectable was my kitchen perspective. So it would never in a million years occur to me to use a food processor for The Last Course because when you cook in volume, you can't use a food processor. You need to use a mixer.
Jessie Sheehan:
A Hobart. Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. A 40-quart Hobart. 60-quart Hobart.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Those kinds of tools didn't of course enter into how I developed things.
Jessie Sheehan:
But in The Last Course, it's a stand mixer. You have your paddle attachment, creaming the butter and the sugar, yolk and vanilla, sifting in the flour and the cocoa powder, which I also noticed, and we'll talk about this when we get to the Delectable, but you've changed that direction slightly. Beating on a low speed, scraping into a sheet of plastic when you're chilling 'til firm, when you're rolling out, is there a favorite... People love to hear about what is Claudia's favorite tool. Do you have a favorite kind of rolling pin? Is there something you would suggest to the listeners?
Claudia Fleming:
I like a French rolling pin.
Jessie Sheehan:
You do?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah, because I can really feel, you can just feel the dough a lot better.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe, just in case people don't know which one the French one is?
Claudia Fleming:
The French one is the, it's all wood. It doesn't have handles, and it tapers on the end, so you can really direct the dough and feel the thickness of it. It's much harder for me to feel the dough with the handles.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Let's say you're me and you don't want to pull out your rolling pin. Could you press the dough into the pan?
Claudia Fleming:
Sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
And would you chill it first, or could you press it in out of the mixer? Try and get it as even as possible, maybe dock it and then put it into the refrigerator to chill before baking off, what do you think?
Claudia Fleming:
I suppose you could.
Jessie Sheehan:
What gives you…
Claudia Fleming:
It would be a little goopy, maybe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Maybe a little too soft.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you might chill the dough, then you could, I don't know, maybe it's Dorie [Greenspan] you'd crumble the dough after it's been chilled into the pan and then press it in.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh, that's a good idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
What do you think about that?
Claudia Fleming:
That's a good idea. I like that idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
The only thing I know for myself, just because, well, making things even or not can be hard, and the beauty of the rolling, is you're going to have very even crust all the way around.
Claudia Fleming:
As it gets thinner, it gets softer and tends to stick to your rolling pin. And you don't want to continuously add flour so it doesn't stick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Claudia Fleming:
So if you roll between parchment, you eliminate the necessity to continue to add flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Yep.
Claudia Fleming:
And you can get it quite thin, but you can also, when you scrape it out of the bowl onto the plastic, spread it out quite thin.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's smart. So then you have less work.
Claudia Fleming:
So then you have less work.
Jessie Sheehan:
After you've rolled it out between the parchment, it's quite thin, would you chill it briefly?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before trying to get it into the tart pan.
Claudia Fleming:
I would, yes. Yeah. Another great thing about using the parchment is anytime you feel like it's getting too soft, take it off the counter and put it in the fridge.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love doing between two pieces of parchment too.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so much easier.
Claudia Fleming:
You can never get it as thin, or I can never get it as thin as I actually want it, unless I'm in between two pieces of parchment.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, no, I love that tip. When I think about the tart dough, can you over mix it? Do people need to be afraid?
Claudia Fleming:
No. It's got too much sugar in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's a pretty stable…
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah and an egg. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
In The Last Course, the tarts are actually assembled in a mini muffin tin, which would've been tiny tarts, but at the restaurant, they would've been a little bigger than that. Two inch, four, what should we picture?
Claudia Fleming:
It's funny.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Because when the chocolate tart started, they were probably in a three and a half, four inch, and then they went into a two and a half, three inch. And then at the North Fork Table, I was making them in financier molds. Which, you know how shallow those are and how thin, like they're small. It was really like a candy bar. And I was like, "This is it."
Jessie Sheehan:
Almost like a two bite dessert.
Claudia Fleming:
Three, I would say. And it only took me 20 years to get there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. For years, I was always, when I was par baking, or I was always using parchment and pie weights. Back in the day, you were using aluminum foil, you knew, it's just better.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
You can reuse it, first of all.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Claudia Fleming:
I mean, you can reuse parchment, but then it starts to crumble.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. No, the foil is brilliant. The caramel. So it's cooking the sugar, the water, the corn syrup. I love that there's no candy thermometer. You're just trusting that people can make caramel by color.
Claudia Fleming:
It is one of those things that the visual cues just are essential.
Jessie Sheehan:
They're there, so use them. Yes.
Claudia Fleming:
I mean, you have to. I mean, by the time you put a thermometer in to register your temperature, you're gone already.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're gone.
Claudia Fleming:
It's already-
Jessie Sheehan:
So would you say definitely use a pot with a light color bottom?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. For sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That makes a big difference.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Your shiniest, cleanest pot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, exactly. And then you're whisking and pouring the caramel into the tarts. Now for the ganache, chocolate and a bowl, when you make a ganache, how do you like the cream to look before you pour it?
Claudia Fleming:
I say a scald. Right before those bubbles start.
Jessie Sheehan:
And this is really finicky, but would you say that's tiny bubbles around the edges?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. Around the edges.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you're good to go.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. And then if you like swirl the pot, you see steam.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. You pour the cream over, you let it sit for two minutes, and you whisk until smooth. Pour the glaze, let it rest. Sprinkle with a few granules. Ta-da.
Claudia Fleming:
Ta-da.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love this in The Last Course, the serving suggestions are caramel ice cream or chocolate malted ice cream. And can I just say, malt powder for life.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh God.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love malt powder.
Claudia Fleming:
Love malt powder.
Jessie Sheehan:
In The Last Course you write, these are small tarts, there's a variation for the larger one like in a nine inch or 10 inch tart pan. But you say the caramel's gooey, so if you make it in the larger pan, it's going to be a little…
Claudia Fleming:
It's a little messy.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's a little bit gooier. With Delectable, and I just love this edition. Tell people what you're adding to this tart.
Claudia Fleming:
Peanuts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course. I mean.
Claudia Fleming:
I know, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
And that's like almost Snickers-ish.
Claudia Fleming:
That's really Snickers-ish.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. And I've seen so many variations with almonds, with walnuts, with pecans, with all different kinds of nuts. And I'm like going down and dirty, going with the peanut, nothing like it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I can't remember, is it salted roasted peanut?
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So it's still very much the chocolate tart from Last Course, but there are some changes that I noticed. It's like a teeny bit less flour and now a little bit of salt in the dough. Assembled in a stand mixer, but a little differently in the sense that you have the dry ingredients and you whisk them separately, as opposed to in The Last Course you use a sieve. And was that just…
Claudia Fleming:
It was just like... Is it really, do we really have to...
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
It's just so restaurant-y to sift.
Jessie Sheehan:
To sift. Yep.
Claudia Fleming:
Do I really have to do that?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Love that. Love that. I highly recommend to anyone that has both of Claudia's books or even if you can find from The Last Course online, it's so interesting, if you're into this kind of stuff to compare these two. I just love seeing...
Claudia Fleming:
I'm so fascinated and honored that you took the time to do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, of course.
Claudia Fleming:
It's amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, no, I love seeing what changed because, and I think as a reader and a consumer, this is like a dream come true, because you always want to ask the person, "But why did you do it that way?" And I get to, and everybody listening gets to, so you have this brilliant tip in Delectable when you're rolling out the dough and putting it into the tart. Tell us the great way to get that rolled out dough into the tart pan.
Claudia Fleming:
So with a removable bottom, you would slide that underneath your rolled out dough, fold the excess dough over, and drop it in the tart ring, and then lift.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I don't know why. I never…
Claudia Fleming:
Instead of picking up the…
Jessie Sheehan:
Did you invent it?
Claudia Fleming:
I didn't. I think I got it from Claire Saffitz, frankly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, you did? Oh gosh. Everything.
Claudia Fleming:
She's a genius.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know.
Claudia Fleming:
I know. I know. I can't take it. I can't take it. I said to her, we interviewed each other, and I'm like, "Does anybody really need another baking book after yours?"
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I know, but we needed Delectable. I'm sorry. We really did.
Claudia Fleming:
Okay. Well, thank you. That's kind.
Jessie Sheehan:
We really, really did. Now with the caramel filling, I was going to ask, because in the headnote of Last Course, you had said, if you make it big, it'll be a little oozy. Did you try to modify the caramel filling for the Delectable version to make it a little less? Not really. Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
The peanuts take care of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah. They weirdly hold it all because the caramel's sticking to the peanuts.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes. They hold it together. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Fascinating.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
The caramel in this version has a little bit of crème fraîche. Oh, but no heavy... No, you have heavy cream in it too.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course, you have to. The salt and the peanuts, and then you're cooking, in The Last Course, I'm pretty sure the caramel is sort of, you're putting everything, when you're boiling, all the ingredients are in there, and you're bringing to the dark amber color. But here you're cooking the corn syrup and you're adding the sugar in stages. Tell us why. Because often you'll see a recipe that begins with everything kind of being cooked altogether.
Claudia Fleming:
And that was a method adopted from my pastry hero, Nancy Silverton.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw. And you even, I think you start with the corn syrup and then add the sugar.
Claudia Fleming:
Add the sugar bit by bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. Why is that a good thing for us to do?
Claudia Fleming:
Without any water you reduce or actually almost eliminate the risk of crystallization.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah. With the corn syrup.
Claudia Fleming:
With the corn syrup. And doing it slowly or in stages, also prevents pockets from burning and from getting dry pockets that also will promote crystallization. Works like a charm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Making caramel can be a little scary for people. Can you walk us through some of the signs that we're looking for when your caramel is almost ready, the color they're looking for, or the smell of the caramel? Or isn't there sometimes like a wisp of steam that comes off?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Smoke, actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
What are the signs that your caramel is ready?
Claudia Fleming:
The caramel's going to start very loose, big bubbles. And as the water starts to evaporate, the bubbles get smaller and slower. And then eventually you start to see some tanning around the outside, and you want to swirl your pan a little bit just to... Not aggressively, very gently to distribute the coloring. And at that point, don't go anywhere.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Because it's going to happen really fast. It's a very slow process until it starts taking on a little bit of color. But once it starts taking on a little bit of color, it's instant.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
I like my caramel very dark. I describe it as almost an Irish Setter brown. It gets this reddish color almost, and it's quite dark. You can also take it off when it's not quite to your liking because the carryover is so great. So you're probably more secure if you take it off when it's super light and let the color carry over. And if it's not the color you want it, put it back on.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you take it off and add the butter or the vanilla?
Claudia Fleming:
No. No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Take it off.
Claudia Fleming:
Take it off.
Jessie Sheehan:
Take a breath.
Claudia Fleming:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Let it get to just a nice mahogany color.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And then put it back if you feel like you need a little…
Claudia Fleming:
If you feel like it's not dark enough, put it back on.
Jessie Sheehan:
Does the darkness of the caramel impact its texture in the sense of the longer you cook it, will it be a sturdier caramel?
Claudia Fleming:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
No. Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
No. Not at all. It'll impact the taste.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, of course.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. It'll be more bitter. It actually almost gets looser when it goes past.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, interesting.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. Just so people understand, if they take almost like the inside of a Rolo in terms of color, it's going to be really sweet.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
But if you wait, it gets that more of a burnt.
Claudia Fleming:
Burnt and kind of bitter.
Jessie Sheehan:
I usually do it in a very small Le Creuset pan. Do you have a favorite pan for making caramel?
Claudia Fleming:
The Le Creuset is genius because it's white, and so you're not being deceived by the color. And darker pans tend to promote faster cooking, a light bottom pan is ideal.
Jessie Sheehan:
The ganache in Delectable, a little more chocolate, which may be because it's one big tart. I love this tip. The chocolate's in your bowl, you're putting your warm heavy cream on top, you're letting it sit. And you say, do not use a whisk to mix it together, use a rubber spatula. Can you tell us why we should be doing that? Is that with all ganache?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Tell us, tell us.
Claudia Fleming:
It introduces bubbles.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
And you want that glass, right? That like ice-skating-rink shine on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Claudia Fleming:
And so bubbles just ruin the mirror-like finish.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's not a flavor or texture thing?
Claudia Fleming:
No, not at all.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's purely…
Claudia Fleming:
It's visual.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. In terms of the ganache, I know we said a few bubbles, maybe a waft of steam. What is the issue? Why can't you boil your cream and then pour it over your chocolate?
Claudia Fleming:
It breaks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Claudia Fleming:
It'll break the... Chocolate is very…
Jessie Sheehan:
Sensitive.
Claudia Fleming:
Sensitive. And it just doesn't emulsify in the same way if it's too hot.
Jessie Sheehan:
I noticed one thing, often a ganache recipe will say, wait one minute, but I noticed you have, you wait two minutes. Do you think the longer you're giving it to melt on its own?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. The less work you have to do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
And the less agitating you have to do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Silly question, but just thinking about myself at home. I have my chocolate in a bowl. I'm pouring over my cream. Are you kind of trying to pour, so you're getting it over all of that chocolate? Do you know what I mean? I guess it depends on the size of the bowl, but are you just kind of pouring it in, or are you making sure that every little piece of chocolate is covered in the cream?
Claudia Fleming:
It seems to me that because of the ratio of ganache, once you pour in all your cream…
Jessie Sheehan:
It's covered.
Claudia Fleming:
It's almost ex…
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Claudia Fleming:
Just covered. Just completely covered.
Jessie Sheehan:
With ganache or any chocolate, would you use Guittard chocolate chips to make your ganache, or would you want it to be bar chocolate?
Claudia Fleming:
Whenever you can get chips, get chips. They make curvature in chocolate chips. We're not talking about Nestle's chocolate chips.
Jessie Sheehan:
I get it.
Claudia Fleming:
I think most high-end chocolate companies these days make…
Jessie Sheehan:
You're right.
Claudia Fleming:
They call them palette or feve, or they call them all kinds of different fancy, French words.
Jessie Sheehan:
You can use those for your ganache. It does not have to be a bar of the chocolate.
Claudia Fleming:
It does not have to be a bar.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good to know.
Claudia Fleming:
No, absolutely not.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good to know. I love this, and I'm curious about it. All of the cooling of this tart is done at room temperature, as opposed, could I speed it up and put it in the fridge or do you not like what happens when you stick the finished tart into the refrigerator?
Claudia Fleming:
It's going to take the shine off the ganache.
Jessie Sheehan:
So keep it on the counter if you want the shine, after it's come completely to room temp, let's say you're not serving it, then can you, or whenever you stick it in that fridge, you're losing shine?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. Whenever.
Jessie Sheehan:
The thing about the tart that's interesting is that there are three components, but making each one is easy. It's just that you then have to put all three together.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. They're all three elements, the most basic elements of pastry. So you put them all together, so it's potentially time consuming. And again, there are several steps and not one bowl, and you'll use some utensils and bowls and such. But each element in and of itself is very basic.
Jessie Sheehan:
I hope the listeners are appreciating all of the science that's being dropped by the genius that is Claudia. Those are my questions about the recipes, but I did have a question that at least is super interesting to me as a cookbook writer, et cetera. Could you talk about what it was like working with Melissa [Clark] on the first book, and Catherine [Young] on the second book, just what does that feel like? What roles do they play? What do you play? Their names are on the covers, which is something.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. I mean, they're my co-writers, they…
Jessie Sheehan:
That's how you think of them.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh yeah. And collaborators, really.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I mean, sometimes the seeding of an idea, in retrospect, you don't even remember whose idea it was. And I can say almost with certainty that the best ideas are not mine. They come from other people.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
All the time. But the biggest difference I would have to say is that I worked in person with Melissa, and because it was the pandemic, Cathy and I were on the phone, what do you call it when you're…
Jessie Sheehan:
Zoom or?
Claudia Fleming:
Not Zoom.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, FaceTime?
Claudia Fleming:
FaceTiming.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I had my phone in the kitchen cabinet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Propped up against the dishes, and I was cooking, and she was asking questions, and it was pretty crazy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Claudia Fleming:
For about four hours a day.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And did she want you to move the phone?
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, Claudia, and show you what it... “This is the bubbles I'm talking…”
Claudia Fleming:
And “Wait, what did you just do? I missed that. Wait, do that again.” I'm like, "Well, I don't want to do it again."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
We got to take a break.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I have to wash some dishes. Otherwise, there's no more room anywhere.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So would you draft a recipe and send it to her, or it would be more like she would watch you do things and say how much…
Claudia Fleming:
And record. Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow. And then also helped with the headnotes?
Claudia Fleming:
Oh, absolutely helped with the headnotes. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
I would dictate mostly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
And she would make me sound intelligible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible, which you do.
Claudia Fleming:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it worked.
Claudia Fleming:
Good. Good job. Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then, this is a silly question, but I know people will, I'm interested, even though I know it's a silly one. Anything in Delectable that you think could have that the chocolate caramel tart had, like any recipes that people seem to be making from it, or…
Claudia Fleming:
Oh, that's interesting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Or anything that you're very attached to that you hope people get on board with?
Claudia Fleming:
I'm very attached to the gruyère and onion biscuits.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. Tell people about the sweet potato ones with the chocolate. Oh my gosh. It's almost, I guess, a pumpkin pie with a chocolate vibe.
Claudia Fleming:
With chocolate. Yeah. I think I was thinking sweet potato pie, actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
But you're right. Yeah, those were delicious too. Also, the shiitake mushroom buns. I'm definitely exploring my savory side more in Delectable.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Which feels really good. There's lots of good stuff.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
There are cakes in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Which is something that I never, ever did.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was that hard for you to develop?
Claudia Fleming:
It was kind of hard, but I got really into it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I know. Tell people about the ginger, the one that's based on your-
Claudia Fleming:
Oh yeah. Okay. So the gingerbread that was everyone's go-to in The Last Course because it was the simplest recipe and it was delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Just a slice of gingerbread cake with some crème fraîche and some candied kumquats.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh. I had a friend who is Irish, who was born on St. Patrick's Day, who wanted a birthday cake. I thought, what better than the Guinness Stout gingerbread cake for her birthday, and I'll just make a layer cake out of it and that's how that was born.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
And it's delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
What's the frosting, or what's…
Claudia Fleming:
The frosting is the ermine frosting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love ermine so much.
Claudia Fleming:
It's a roux, which is flour and milk, and you make a paste. Then you add milk to it, and you get this paste and you put it on your mixer, and you cool it down, and then you add bits of butter. It's not the precursor to buttercream, it came after buttercream, I'm sure, but it's, the method is more like buttercream, but it actually is the precursor to cream cheese, which was apparently very hard to come by. And ermine frosting or cream cheese frosting, ermine is its predecessor.
Jessie Sheehan:
But if you couldn't get cream cheese, it's almost like with that roux, you were making some kind of solid…
Claudia Fleming:
Thick.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, for those that have never had it, it does take a teeny bit more, I mean, it's not an American buttercream.
Claudia Fleming:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's a little more complicated than that, but the taste is…
Claudia Fleming:
And the texture is so beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is incredible.
Claudia Fleming:
And not sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
No.
Claudia Fleming:
I find cream cheese frosting very sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Probably because it has so much sugar in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
This does not.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Ermine is so good. Yum.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it flavored? I can't remember on the... No.
Claudia Fleming:
No, vanilla. Just vanilla.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that. Yeah. Love that. I know you've had two positions now with Danny since you started working for Union Square Hospitality Group, but can you tell us a little bit about the newest position?
Claudia Fleming:
Sure. I am the Executive Culinary Director, which sounds so fancy, doesn't it?
Jessie Sheehan:
So fancy. Yes.
Claudia Fleming:
So fancy.
Jessie Sheehan:
So impressive. Love it. So impressed.
Claudia Fleming:
For Daily Provisions, which is an all day café, your neighborhood café. We like to say that we make things that you know better than you thought they could be.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love.
Claudia Fleming:
Simple egg sandwich, right? Tuna fish sandwich, egg salad sandwich. The basic stuff, but delicious. And my job is to R&D [research and develop] menu items that may or may not make it onto the menu, and to train and work with staff, the teams in the restaurants, and it's a very busy day. It's great.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible and you strike me as someone who always, like some of us, like I write cookbooks, develop recipes, but I like doing it in the co... I'm a like, I guess I'm homebody-ish. I like to be home, but you strike me as someone who enjoys that, like being able to go and be at work.
Claudia Fleming:
I do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
The pace of a restaurant is really something that…
Jessie Sheehan:
Feeds you.
Claudia Fleming:
... is my jam.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you get that, even if it's in the kitchen of the Daily Provisions.
Claudia Fleming:
Absolutely. Those places rock.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's so awesome.
Claudia Fleming:
They are so busy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But with the hours that don't require you to be a pastry chef at a... Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
Nice.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's really nice.
Claudia Fleming:
It's a Monday through Friday.
Jessie Sheehan:
For those that have never been to a Daily Provisions, either because you don't live in New York City, or if you're coming to New York or you've never, they, I just adored the... Can you tell us about the cruller?
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's a little bit famous.
Claudia Fleming:
It's a lot famous. Well before my time, but it's I guess what you call a French donut. It's pâte à choux dough. That's piped and I can't say anymore than that. And then cooked and glazed. One is the cinnamon glaze, one is a maple sugar glaze, and then there's the rotating flavor.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claudia Fleming:
And this month's just happens to be Meyer lemon poppy seed.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah. So I love the citrus with the crispy cruller dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, the cruller dough has this beautiful crispiness.
Claudia Fleming:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Almost custardy, but…
Claudia Fleming:
Exactly. Custardy inside. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So good.
Claudia Fleming:
They're wonderful.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me, Claudia, and I just wanted to tell you that you are my cherry pie.
Claudia Fleming:
Oh, thank you. You are mine.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Claudia Fleming. You can find the recipe for Claudia's chocolate caramel tart on cherrybombe.com, and the link is in our show notes. Thank you to Le Creuset and California Prunes for supporting our show. She's my Cherry Pie is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine, our show is recorded at CityVox Studios in Manhattan. Our executive producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thank you for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.