David Lebovitz Transcript

Jessie Sheehan:

Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.

I am so excited to welcome back David Lebovitz to the show. You probably know David as a pastry chef, cookbook author, and American in Paris who has inspired home bakers around the world with his books, blog, and now his must-read Substack. He's one of the OG food bloggers, and readers have long loved his recipes, humor, and candid glimpses into Parisian life. David is here to chat about his new book, the newly-revived “Ready For Dessert: My Best Recipes.” It's his best-selling collection with more than 170 recipes for cakes, cookies, pastries, and more, all accompanied by gorgeous photography. One recipe in particular that we dive into is his Linzertorte, a cross between a tart and a cake, which he re-imagined with a peanut butter and jelly twist. Traditionally, this Austrian classic is made with a hazelnut crust and raspberry jam filling, but in David's version, he swaps in peanuts and grape jelly. We dig into the recipe and the differences between the traditional version and his version. We talk about the first chocolate soufflé David ever made in his mom's Pyrex measuring cup, no less, his take on lemon dessert people versus chocolate dessert people, the origin stories of both galettes and ganache, and so much more. I always adore chatting with David, and I can't wait for you to hear our conversation. You can find today's recipe at Cherry Bombe’s Substack.

Today's episode is presented by California Prunes. If you're a longtime listener, you know I'm a longtime fan of California Prunes. They're good for your bones, your gut, and even your heart, but most importantly, they're just a good snack, and I love a good snack. They're in my cabinet right now, because they satisfy my sweet tooth at a moment's notice. Of course, I also love baking with them. They have such a complex flavor that gets even deeper when paired with chocolate, or warm spices, or nuts. Some of my favorite recipes are my famously delicious cream scones with chopped prunes, my sticky toffee pudding with prunes, and I've even added prunes to my chocolate banana bread. Each recipe has a hundred percent been better for it, but if you don't believe me, you can try all of these recipes for yourself at my website, jessiesheehanbakes.com. My big tip is that anything you'd bake with dried fruit, from oatmeal cookies, to granola, scones, and muffins, is a prune moment. You can use them whole because they're so nice and juicy, or chop them up to spread the joy. They also help you hit some of your health goals, and if I can do that with a cookie, I'm happy. Prunes contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health, potassium to support heart health, and vitamin K, copper, and antioxidants to support healthy bones. There's a reason they've been on grocery store shelves since the 1800s. For more recipes and info, check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. That's californiaprunes.org.

Peeps, guess who was on the cover of Cherry Bombe's Italy issue. It's Chef Missy Robbins of Lilia, Misi, and MISIPASTA in New York City and Chef Nancy Silverton of Osteria Mozza, Chi Spacca, and more in Los Angeles. Yes, we have two covers. We couldn't be more excited to have these two iconic chefs grace the cover. Their careers have focused on bringing the best of Italian cooking to the U.S. The entire issue is about la dolce vita, with delicious recipes, beautiful photography, and stories that will transport you straight to the trattorias, bakeries, and gelato stands. The Italy issue is out now. Head to cherrybombe.com or click the link in our show notes to order your copy.

Let's chat with today's guest. David, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie again, and to talk Linzertortes with you, and so much more.

David Lebovitz:

I loved talking to you last time, and I'm super excited to be chatting with you again, Jessie.

Jessie Sheehan:

I read in your fantastic new book, “Ready for Dessert,” which is a revised edition of your earlier book, that your baking career began with a chocolate soufflé assembled in a Pyrex measuring cup.

And I know that you and I discussed this soufflé last time we spoke, but it's such a good story that it needs revisiting, in my opinion. I think this was maybe the first night that your parents left you home alone without a babysitter.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. I should add, I was old enough. It wasn't like they just left me alone. They used to leave us with TV dinners, and probably some of the listeners might not even know what that is. But it was like a rectangular tray that was divided and had the dessert, the sides, the roast turkey or fried chicken, and you put it in the oven for 30 minutes, and it was dinner. It was a five-course dinner.

Jessie Sheehan:

Can I just say that my mother didn't buy them, and I coveted them, David? I wanted everything, the equivalent of a bento box. I wanted lots of different compartments.

David Lebovitz:

That's actually a great analogy. It was like the American bento box. But my mother left me, she was leaving me alone, and I was old enough to use the stove and the oven. And I noticed, I was looking through her settlement cookbook, which was subtitled, “The Way to a Man's Heart,” which it would not fly today as it was a cookbook title, I think.

But it had a chocolate soufflé recipe, and it sounded really good. It was chocolate, butter, sugar, and eggs. And of course, we had all those things on hand, except for the soufflé dish. We did have a big Pyrex measuring cup, or it was a medium one, I should say.

I thought, "Oh, it's oven-proof, and it's sort of like a soufflé." So I made a soufflé, and it came out really good. Souffles aren't hard to make, but I was like, "Wow." What an "aha" moment for me.

Jessie Sheehan:

Well, can I just say, that is like, if you're going to talk about the magic or alchemy of baking, there is nothing like a soufflé to really turn you into a convert to the magic.

David Lebovitz:

Well, also, even if they don't rise, a lot of times people see pictures of things, especially in magazines with food stylists who know what they're doing, and they have these towering souffles. They're like five inches above the rim and going around. It's beautiful.

And those are the product of somebody who maybe adds something to the recipe to make it stand up under the camera or something, and the soufflé isn't supposed to be a picture-perfect thing, unless you're a professional and you're getting paid.

So home cooks can relax. You can make a soufflé in a gratin dish. Actually, I like those a lot, because then you have a lot of crust, and I know you're someone that really likes texture and crust, so you're shaking your head. I am too.

Jessie Sheehan:

I am. I'm saying yes, yes, because that's what's lovely about a soufflé, is the contrast from the foamy, delicious, chocolatey softness and then the crispiness. Did the soufflé put you on a little bit of a baking and cooking jag? Was that like, "Hey, I can do this. This is fun."

David Lebovitz:

I was never a baker. It wasn't my calling to be a baker, and fast-forward to when I started working in restaurants in New York, and then I moved to San Francisco and started working at Chez Panisse. When I worked in the cafe, I was a line cook. I worked at Zuni as a line cook, savory, and so I know how to defend myself. I'm actually tougher than I look or sound.

But I used to love watching the bakers bake. I loved watching them peel fruit, I loved watching them roll out dough, and I thought it was really fun. What was funny, when there was an opening at Chez Panisse for a baker, so I said I wanted to do it, and it was between me and this woman who I worked with, and of course, they gave it to her. I don't know why ... no.

She was a friend, so I was like, "Oh, congratulations, great." Then she got offered a job right after that, soon after, running the kitchen at a fancy hotel in San Francisco with benefit, the whole union stuff. So she left. I was like, "Oh, that's too bad." So I got the job. I was the second choice. I was there, I stayed for 13 years, and I'm part of the Chez Panisse family.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yes. I want to just jump back a little bit to more delicious things that I read about you as a little kid or a younger person. I know there were not a lot of sweets when you were growing up, but I know you sat around with your grandfather, ate pistachio nuts, drank little sips of whiskey. I love those early food ... I know, sorry. Sorry, listeners. It's true.

David Lebovitz:

Wow.

Jessie Sheehan:

Or he gave you a little-

David Lebovitz:

I drink alone. My grandfather gave me whiskey ...

Jessie Sheehan:

If you're just joining, poor David. But one treat that your parents did have on hand were these store-bought pecan shortbread cookies, yes?

David Lebovitz:

Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:

And was that Keebler's, like the yellow?

David Lebovitz:

They were called Pecan Sandies.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yes, but do you remember if it was the Keebler's in the yellow container?

David Lebovitz:

I think so.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yeah, because the way you described them, kind of thick and nubby, those-

David Lebovitz:

They were dry, but I don't know if you ever had them.

Jessie Sheehan:

I did.

David Lebovitz:

Okay. I don't even know if they make them, because then when you say a dry cookie, people are like, "Moist ... it's got to be soft, chewy, and blah, blah, blah." I think they must've had artificial butterscotch. They must have had something in them that made ... or umami, MSG, or something that made you want to eat these cookies as a kid. Usually kids want chocolate chip cookies and stuff like that, but the Pecan Sandies are ...

Jessie Sheehan:

So good. I remember, my mother would only buy Chips Ahoy, which really gives chocolate chip cookies a bad name. They're not good.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah, but you ate them.

Jessie Sheehan:

I did, but I would've much rather had a pecan sandy.

David Lebovitz:

Okay. You might remember, there were these cookies, and they were like bars called Hay Days. It was a rectangle of caramel that was gooey, covered with chocolate and big chunks of peanuts.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yum.

David Lebovitz:

It was almost like a candy bar.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yeah.

David Lebovitz:

They were not cookies. They're candies and they were so-

Jessie Sheehan:

Yum.

David Lebovitz:

Every time I go to the U.S., I go and look. It's like, "They still make Hay Days."

Jessie Sheehan:

We'll be right back.

Kerry Diamond:

Hi everybody, it's Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder of Cherry Bombe and the host of Radio Cherry Bombe. In case you hadn't heard, Cherry Bombe is on Substack. If you're a Substack lover like me, be sure to check it out and subscribe. You can subscribe for free or become a monthly or annual paid subscriber. Each Saturday, we post a recap of She's My Cherry Pie, plus all the fun baking news of the week. We also have recipes, the Cherry Bombe Friday newsletter, and special features from Cherry Bombe's print magazine, like the Missy Robbins cover story from our Italy issue. If you're new to Substack, think about it as the home of modern blogs. If you love reading, writing, recipes, it's the place for you. Visit cherrybombe.substack.com.

Jessie Sheehan:

Now, back to our guest.

There was one cake that your mom did make that made it into the book, the Date-nut Torte. Can you tell us about that cake? Do you think she liked it? I know your mom was sort of, we talked about this last time, into diet culture. She was not going to be making tons of sweets.

You mentioned about that cake that it doesn't call for butter. It's dusted with 10x or confectioner's sugar. Is the recipe in the book, this is what I wanted to ask, is it hers?

David Lebovitz:

Yes. My mother actually liked sweets. She used to go to ... We had in our town, there was actually a store that made candy and chocolates. This is New England. It was called Hilliards, and you could watch them dip stuff, and they made gumdrops. They made everything there, gumdrops.

My mother, she liked butter crunch toffee and things like that, but there was that era where women were very concerned about their diets. So she was kind of under that period of time where it was important.

Jessie Sheehan:

Just so people have a visual on David's mother, you describe her as looking like Mary Tyler Moore, which is the best way. I love Mary Tyler Moore.

David Lebovitz:

Yes. The only problem is, if I watch “Ordinary People,” that's exactly what my mother looked like, but also, the woman is terrifying. The terrifying-

Jessie Sheehan:

The terrifying version.

David Lebovitz:

My mother wasn't terrifying, but this cake she made was a date-nut torte. It was very simple. Her father was Syrian, but he came over during that time in America where people who moved to America didn't want to be Syrian-American. They wanted to be American. They didn't talk about it much, and they weren't pining to go back to the old country, but she made this cake that had Syrian influences, using dates and then topping it with powdered sugar, and it was delicious.

And so I put it in the first edition of the book, and when I revised the book, because when I rewrote “Ready for Dessert” for the new revised edition ... and I think you said revived edition, which I loved.

Jessie Sheehan:

Oh, did I?

David Lebovitz:

I'm going to use, because there's only so many times I can say revised. I thought, "Well, I'm sure this cake is going to be better with butter." And I made it, and Romain didn't like it. My partner's French, and French people will tell you they don't like something. In that respect, he's a very good taste tester.

And he was right. Everything doesn't have to have butter in it. Everything doesn't have to be over the top rich. And it's a snack cake. I know you're into snack cakes as well. And they're cakes you don't feel, and I hate to use this word, guilty, because I can't tell you what I've eaten already today, in terms of chocolate, and cookies, and so forth. I'm eyeing, somebody brought me some Milanos from America. The bag is next to me, and I am dying to open them.

But this cake is really nice, because the dates add a nice little burst of gooey sweetness. I add, often, green anise seed, just a little bit, but it adds sort of an elusive, beguiling flavor that it's something you want to eat with coffee, or you slice off a little bit of it. So I love that cake.

Jessie Sheehan:

It sounds so delish. We're not going to go too deep into Chez Panisse times because we did so last time, but I did want to talk about Lindsey Shere. You've said you learned most of what you know about baking from her, and there were a couple of great things that I read about her in some of the head notes in the new book. You think she gave you one of the best baking lessons ever. She taught you the importance of flavor over technique. I think we know what that means, but can you just unpack that lesson?

David Lebovitz:

I remember at Chez Panisse, I'd worked there quite a while for several years, and I was used to making all these fruit tarts, but we got the most amazing ingredients at Chez Panisse, organic butter before anyone heard of organic butter, and just eggs from the farm. Everything was amazing.

I said to Lindsay once, "I don't know how to make any of those fancy desserts." And she said to me, "Well, that's okay, because most of them aren't very good anyways." And so I did go to pastry school in France to learn how to make these fancy cakes that were layers of gelatin, and fruit, and sponge cake, el baba, and syrup, and everything.

But I really learned to taste food. I always tell people I'm an ingredient-based baker, not a technique-based baker. People want me to do demonstrations. They think I'm going to teach people something, and I can teach. I'm not an idiot. But my desserts are very simple, my style's very simple. I'm really into taste and flavor.

And that's something that's kind of ... No one wants to listen to me for three hours at a class talking about, this is the right peach and this is what to do with it. And I can talk for five or six hours on that. But that's something that's very interesting about me. And when I write a book, I'm so flavor driven.

And Romain, my partner, thinks I'm insane, because I'm like, "Taste these seven cakes I made." And he's like, "They all taste the same." I'm like, "Well, this one has three quarters of a teaspoon of baking powder, and it's a little denser than the one with one teaspoon." You're shaking your head.

But to me, I can taste all those things, and I don't know if other people can as well. But people ask me, "Can I do this with your recipe? Can I change this?" I'm like, "I worked really hard on getting it to just the right point where I think you're going to like it. So yes, you can change it, but I gave you the best recipe."

Jessie Sheehan:

I want to talk about your move to Paris, but I wanted to talk about it within the lens of your irreverent humor and your observation. I read or listened, I'm not sure which, that when somebody will ask you about your sense of humor, that there is something about being a really amazing observer. If you're an observant person, it's almost like you have these incredible stories to tell, particularly for you about what it's like to live in Paris, and that there is some connection.

Part of what makes your writing so entertaining is your sense of humor, but I also like this idea of this connection between being really observant and telling those stories through this funny lens. Did that sort of just happen organically when you began writing for the blog? I read that you got a D in high school English. It's not like we're looking at ... Sorry, David. I didn't mean to out you.

David Lebovitz:

No, it's okay. I've been on the New York Times bestseller.

Jessie Sheehan:

Right, exactly. So you're fine. You're fine.

David Lebovitz:

I think part of it was, I'd worked in restaurants most of my life, so I was used to being very open about everything. I don't want to scare your readers, but I remember working in restaurants, you'd walk in and go, "Oh, I have a rash between my legs. Could someone take a look at this?" You're just used to talking about stuff. I'm also a pretty honest and open person in some ways, but I'm also very introverted.

When I moved to Paris, there were so many interesting things. Still to this day, I can take a walk to the bakery and there're five stories in there. I have so many stories in my head that are ready to tell. It's just so interesting here and it's so different.

Somebody once said, Americans and French people are like two of the most complete opposites of each other, and a lot of Americans are like, "Oh, we want to move to France." And French people are like, "We want to move to America, the energy, blah, blah, blah." People say that, but they don't really want to, because each of those people believe that their country is still better, their way of life is still better.

And that might have shifted in the last few years, but living abroad is really hard. I think it's okay to talk about that. I used to have people write to me or leave comments saying, "How can you talk like that? You should be happy that you're there," and so forth. I used to have French people come up to me and go, "Oh, we're so glad somebody's talking about France honestly," rather than just, "Oh, every day we have croissant and everything." It's like, "No, the other day I had to go to the bank."

Jessie Sheehan:

Now I want to jump into your amazing book. This is a book that originally came out in 2010, so it's like 15 years later. Can you tell us about the differences? I know you put in some new recipes, et cetera, but what would you say makes this book different?

David Lebovitz:

Well, when Ten Speed Press, my wonderful publisher ... I'm one of the authors that loves their publisher and my editors, if they're listening. Even if they're not, I love them. I love everybody at my publisher. They approached me about redoing the book, and I was like, "Oh, well, I'll just add a few more recipes." It's going to take me a couple of days, or call it a day.

And then I started looking at the book and going, "Oh, well, this isn't how I do this anymore. Oh, here's an easier way to do this." And then I thought, my books are also, I'm telling a story about my life. I'm a memoirist in a way. If you want a brownie recipe, you can go online and get one. So I want to tell people why they should make this brownie, how it relates to my life, what makes it special, and so forth.

But I decided I would use this opportunity, so I started rewriting the book from the ground up, and it was a great chance for me to reboot, or as you say, revive these wonderful recipes that I've had and I've been making for 25, 30 years, that I've been testing and just making over and over, and how I changed them.

They tell the story of my life today. And I was particularly excited because the first covers ... Writing books, the cover, you have to have a meeting with the publisher, and then there's the marketing people, and they all want to have their say. Luckily, I love my publisher. We had several discussions about different covers, and nobody got it. It wasn't quite right.

The designer, Betsy at Ten Speed Press, who's amazing, she wasn't feeling well. She goes, "Okay, well why don't you go. I'm going to work on the cover, and I'll be back." The next day, she sent this cover, the current cover, to me. And I was like, "Perfect, perfect, perfect. Whatever you're taking for your cold, keep taking it."

But it just said everything about my life. I like profiteroles in a Paris cafe, I like chocolate, I like ice cream, I look happy.

Jessie Sheehan:

I love the cover, David. It's so good.

David Lebovitz:

I was like, "I kind of need to be on the cover," but there're so many people who are better looking than me on book covers now that it's like, "Well, people don't need to ... They just need the idea of me."

Jessie Sheehan:

Some hands, a chest. That's it.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. Well, not a chest.

Jessie Sheehan:

The upper body.

David Lebovitz:

I just saw the "Donut Daddy" cookbook.

Jessie Sheehan:

David's just in an apron.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah, I'm wearing a sweater. It's cold. I'm at a bistro, not the gym.

Jessie Sheehan:

I love the cover. One thing I read that I thought was interesting about the new book, you played with the idea of reducing the amount of fat and sugar in every recipe, to the least amount that you could do without sacrificing flavor and texture. Can you unpack that?

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. I'm kind of an insane recipe tester, and I will test everything every which way. I did go through the low fat ... I'm old enough to remember the low fat phase in America, when fat was considered bad. It's okay to eat fat, but I don't think you need ... This whole thing like, "Yeah, fat is life. Dude, let's eat ..." We're eating pure lamb fat, cold. Well, some people like that.

I'm not afraid of fat, and I'm not afraid of chocolate, or eggs, or butter, but I think use these things judiciously. I'm conscious too, because I see recipes that are like, "Make this buttercream for the cake," and there's two pounds of butter. They're like, "Put two pounds of butter in the mixer, add eight cups of sugar." I'm like, "That's kind of overkill for me."

So I just try to use the minimum amount of things that will still produce a spectacular flavor without overdoing it.

Jessie Sheehan:

Did you find that in previous recipes, you could look back and be like, "Oh, actually I could cut back the butter by a few tablespoons, and I'm going to use a little bit less sugar," or was it more in the new recipes that you created for the book, or a mixture?

David Lebovitz:

Honestly, I would ... Could we turn the mic off?

Jessie Sheehan:

Yes.

David Lebovitz:

Honestly, I was like, "Oh my God, I've got to redo this recipe." That's too much, or that won't work, and it needs ... So I would remake some recipes four or five times, and I was like, "Oh, actually the version that is in the book is actually really good." But it took me going through the recipes again to know that.

Jessie Sheehan:

I totally get that. I totally get that. I want everyone to buy David's book. I want everyone to bake from it. But I also really want people to read the head notes. It's like its own book, for me.

So first, I adore Claudia Fleming. She's a friend. She's been on the podcast. I loved learning that you gush over Claudia, and was it her gingerbread stout? Well, you have a gingerbread, stout Guinness cupcake situation that's sort of inspired by her.

David Lebovitz:

Well, when her book first came out, “The Last Course,” it was kind of a moment in pastry cookbooks, and she was kind of the star. She still is the star. There was a moment, and then the book somehow went out of print, and everyone's like, "I just found a copy for a thousand dollars."

But I remember, I had gone to New York. I was with probably Alice, and Lindsey, and a bunch ... We were cooking for Meals on Wheels, I think, and we had dinner or lunch at where she was working, Gramercy. I was like, "Oh my God, it's Claudia Fleming." I think I was with all these, now they call them celebrity chefs, but these are people who are ... Wolfgang Puck was probably with us, and I was like, "Claudia Fleming."

Claudia, she was a trained dancer, I think. She's very poised and measured in a way, too. She's not someone you're going to hang out, "Hey, Claudia."

Jessie Sheehan:

She's not going to be jumping up at the side of the table, like, "David!"

David Lebovitz:

Exactly, exactly. I think she might've been a little scared of me, but then I met her, we were on Food Network, we were judges, and Claudia Fleming walks into the green room. I'm like, "I can't breathe."

Jessie Sheehan:

I love that.

David Lebovitz:

But she's super nice.

Jessie Sheehan:

She is. She's so lovely.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:

The other thing I loved learning about was the, quote, unquote, "possible invention" of the galette. Tell us about Jacques Pépin coming to Chez Panisse and the Apple Crunch Tart.

David Lebovitz:

Yes. We had a French chef, Jean-Pierre Moulle, at Chez Panisse for quite a while, who I loved, and he was friends with Jacques Pépin. And so he invited Jacques Pépin to come and cook with us for a week. Jacques Pépin, he's not really a restaurant cook per se, but he came in. He was walking around and spending time with us in the pastry department.

He had these two books on technique come out, and I forgot the name, but of all the cookbooks I've had to get rid of in my life, those two technique books are amazing. And he had these desserts. One of them was, he carved a swan basket out of a watermelon, which was not very Chez Panisse, but he was doing it in front of us. I'm like, "Oh my God, this guy's amazing."

But he made these Apple Crunch Tarts that were a layer of dough, apples, and then a layer of dough on top, enclosed, buttered heavily, with sugar on top, and you bake it. And the whole top became crunchy. I was like, "Oh my God, these are so good." It's called Apple Crunch Tart.

He left after the week. Somehow we decided to make them without the top, and I don't know, we called them galettes. It sort of stuck. Now everybody's making galettes. I saw there's a cookbook of galettes recently that came out. It looks really good.

But living in France, nobody calls them galettes. They're tarts, apple tart, tarte aux prune. If you say galette, a galette is a buckwheat crepe in France.

Jessie Sheehan:

Right, right, right. I love, love, love that story. And there's another story that I also loved equally, where does this word come from, kind of story. Tell us about the ganache origin story. I love this one.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. The word ganache allegedly came because a young stagiare, or intern, he was melting chocolate and he spilled some cream into it, and the chef called him a "ganache", which means stupid. I think it also can refer to a pillow, but called him an idiot. But then they stirred it up and it came out really good. That's allegedly how ganache got started.

When I wrote Drinking French, I was writing about chartreuse, the French liqueur, and I sent the chapter to the head of chartreuse in France and the Alps to just fact check. And he wrote me, he goes, "Well, nobody was around 600 years ago to verify some of these things." I did research, but there're stories out there, but I like stories.

Jessie Sheehan:

You have this, I think, kind of hilarious, but potentially polarizing take on two dessert camps, two kinds of people, the lemon people and the chocolate people. Can you just tell us a little bit about lemon people and chocolate people?

David Lebovitz:

Yes. Well, I used to teach classes at Sur La Table stores, three hour demonstration classes. People would come in, you'd make five or six desserts. These are lay people. Some are home bakers. Some people just wanted to have something to eat, whatever reason. You get a really interesting mix of people. Accountants would come in after work and so forth, and hang out, and eat dessert, and drink wine, and it was fun.

This is before blogging. I'd get all this feedback from people. I realized, the world is divided into lemon people and chocolate people. One day I mentioned that in class. This woman raised her hand and I said, "You're one of those lemon people." She kind of looked a little insulted, like I had insulted her.

For years it was like, "Oh my God, I have to go to therapy for this. I've insulted this woman, the lemon ..." so I called her the lemon lady. I wrote a story about her once, and if she's listening, I like lemons, I like lemon people.

But it is interesting, a lot of people ... You've probably met people that are like, "I don't like chocolate." It's like, "What? Wait, what?" I can understand not liking coconut, or licorice, or ginger, or whatever, but chocolate, no. And lemon too, I love lemon desserts. I don't like them together, chocolate and lemon, but ...

Jessie Sheehan:

All right, now I want to talk about your peanut butter and jelly Linzertorte. I love the high-low of this. A Linzertorte, you think sophisticated, but peanut butter and jelly, you think yum and childhood. So I love everything about this. Can you tell us what a Linzertorte is?

David Lebovitz:

A Linzertorte, traditionally is, it's not really a torte or a cake. A torte, I think by definition, and people can leave comments, is a cake that has no flour in it, but just nuts. I'm not sure how Linzertorte got the name, but it's not really a tart. I guess it could be a tart, but maybe not.

But it's made with sort of a shortbread type crust, like a soft crust, that traditionally has hazelnuts in it, and then it has a layer of jam. And I believe it's traditionally raspberry jam. I kept thinking about nuts and jam, and I was like, "I'm American. What about peanuts? And what about Concord grape jelly?" I tried it and it worked really well.

The Austrian version is hazelnut and jam and the American version is peanuts and jam. I took that recipe, that idea, and then I converted it to my own peanut butter and jelly Linzertorte.

Jessie Sheehan:

I love that so much. And I'm mad at myself, because I had a Linzertorte in not my last book, but the one before. And why didn't I think of peanut butter and jelly, David? That's so brilliant. I love it. I love it.

David Lebovitz:

That's the good thing about bakers. We all compliment each other. I always tell people, there's no competition. We all love each other and we all like what we do. You came up with something else, and then I came up with something else.

Jessie Sheehan:

Was this a recipe that was in the first book?

David Lebovitz:

Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:

Oh, awesome, awesome. And you famously have talked about your love of peanut butter and also bringing it to Paris, right? It's not easy to find. Is that still true?

David Lebovitz:

You can get it now. There's actually a place that makes it here. Paris, in the last five years, it's like American. It's not because of Americans, the American influence. It's like, "Absolutely not." These are French people making peanut butter.

But with all due respect, homemade peanut butter doesn't taste the same as the stuff in the jar, especially the crunchy. Because the stuff in the jar, it's half smooth with big chunks of peanuts in it. It's not just all peanuts chopped up. I'm a little particular about peanut butter, so I bring it back.

Although have you tried, it's called Everything Butter with Nuts and Seeds. Somebody brought me a jar of it, and I was like, "Oh, something else to put in my cabinet." It's got hemp, flaxseed, sesame, chia, pepites, pumpkin seeds, and sunflower seeds. I wish I was paid to promote it, because then they'd send me a case, but I'm not. I buy it when I go to America at Whole Foods. It's like $12 a jar. It's made in New Zealand.

Jessie Sheehan:

But you can get it at Whole Foods? I'm going to get some.

David Lebovitz:

It's so good. It's really good.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yum.

David Lebovitz:

I hide it from Romain, because he doesn't appreciate it like I do. He'll just eat it. I'm like, "No, you're not allowed to just eat it."

Jessie Sheehan:

You have to really be loving every bite of it.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. He'll walk in, he's like, "What are you eating?" I'm like, "Nothing. Why?" And there's nut butter on my lip.

Jessie Sheehan:

Peanut butter on your face. All right, so we're going to heat our oven to 350 degrees, and we're going to butter the bottom of a nine inch springform pan.

David Lebovitz:

Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:

Two questions, are we not buttering the sides or are we doing bottom and sides?

David Lebovitz:

Well, I always do the bottom, because often when you bake things, it shrinks a little, so that's not a problem.

Jessie Sheehan:

So the sides are less important.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:

And then is there a brand of springform?

David Lebovitz:

I'm speechless, because I had this springform pan that was made by KitchenAid that had a glass bottom, flat, so you never had to take anything off it, or everything just slid off it. I would always recommend them to people and then they stopped making it, for some reason. I know. I'm like, "What?"

Jessie Sheehan:

That's brilliant, not only because it'll slide off, but because you can serve it on that, and it looks pretty, and it's not like when you leave the thing that came in the spring form pan on its metal bottom, it looks like you couldn't get it off.

David Lebovitz:

Okay, Jessie, I want you to take this idea and market it and come out with your own glass bottom spring ... You have my blessing. I just want you to send me one. No one's allowed to touch my glass bottom springform pan at home. Those are great. That's what I use.

Jessie Sheehan:

That sounds amazing.

David Lebovitz:

But it's hard to tell people to use that because it's hard to get.

Jessie Sheehan:

And I wondered about if you would ever make this with just a tart pan with the removable bottom. Is the size-

David Lebovitz:

You could. The problem is, once again, that's a barrier. More people have a springform pan than a tart pan.

Jessie Sheehan:

I got you. So that's a recipe choice. I understand.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:

So in a food processor fitted with the metal blade, we're going to pulse some all-purpose flour. I read this in the book, but you are now able to find French flowers that simulate all-purpose in the United States enough that you can write for both camps.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah. In France they have 14 kinds of flour. We have two, all-purpose and bread flour.

Jessie Sheehan:

Totally. And then we're going to add some roasted, unsalted peanuts. Are peanuts easy to find because we're seeing them in bars everywhere?

David Lebovitz:

Well, you can find the salted ones in the supermarket in the apero aisle or the snack aisle. I get them in bulk. I live near several shops that sell nuts and dried fruits in bulk. When I say bulk, I don't mean American bulk, but French bulk, which is like a pound. Then I think, "Oh, that's a lot." You can buy peanuts. I actually buy raw peanuts and toast them myself. But I think it's hard to find raw peanuts, but you can get unsalted peanuts. Planters makes them as well.

Jessie Sheehan:

And then we're going to add some sugar, which is just granulated. And then we're going to add some aluminum-free baking powder. Remind us why you like aluminum-free.

David Lebovitz:

My palate is pretty sensitive to metallic tastes, and I actually, if you use too much ... If anyone's ever had a scone that tastes tinny, that's because they use a baking powder with aluminum in it. It's one of those things that will improve your baking, in my opinion, aluminum-free baking powder. It's very easy to find nowadays.

Jessie Sheehan:

And we're going to add some cinnamon. I know that the French use cinnamon much less than us. They're not committed to adding it with apples, et cetera. Why do you like it here with the peanuts?

David Lebovitz:

I use not that much. I use a teaspoon. I think it gives a little background, spicy flavor without-

Jessie Sheehan:

Being cinnamon.

David Lebovitz:

Also in France, people will say, "Oh, you're adding cinnamon. It has to be a peanut butter, jelly, and cinnamon torte." They're very literal, so I try to do it so you can't really taste the cinnamon, but it's there. It's a background flavor. It's like salt in a recipe. People are like, "Why do you salt in cakes?" It's like ...

Jessie Sheehan:

Seasoning. It's the seasoning. Is there a brand of cinnamon?

David Lebovitz:

Well, in America, Burlap & Barrel spices are really good. I love their cardamom. I love everything they make, actually.

Jessie Sheehan:

Me too.

David Lebovitz:

I actually bring them back to France. We can get good spices here. There are a couple of companies, Shira. There's a store on Rue Saint-Anne, but it's actually easier for me to bring them back from America than to take the Metro.

Jessie Sheehan:

We're also going to add some salt. Last time we chatted on the pod, you told me some feelings about kosher salt and that you're actually buying salt and grinding your own. But you're never going to write a recipe where you say, "Now first thing's first, grind your salt."

David Lebovitz:

I'm guilty.

Jessie Sheehan:

Tell us why you prefer, I think, more like a fine sea salt to a kosher salt. Is that correct?

David Lebovitz:

I find kosher salt really salty. When you bake with something, the saltiness doesn't matter that much, but I always tell people, "I want you to taste like a little bit of flaky Fleur de Sel or Maldon salt, and then taste some white granulated salt. And you'll never use white granulated salt again."

It's okay for baking. As a cook and as a baker, I'm very instinctive, and I know when I stick my fingers, my very clean fingers, into the salt bowl ... although salt, I don't think, harbors bacteria ... I know exactly when I pull out a pinch or whatever, or if I look in the bowl when I'm making salad dressing, exactly how much salt I need.

People use the same salt over and over. In America, kosher salt is very easy to get. That's fine to use that. I use gray sea salt because it tastes minerally, more minerally than salty to me.

Jessie Sheehan:

We're going to process all of this together until the peanuts are coarsely ground, but still slightly chunky. Then we're going to add some chilled, unsalted butter. And I had a question. In France, sort of famously, the butter has more fat, it's more delicious, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Is that a problem for you when you're testing recipes? Your recipes don't call for European-style butter, I think I'm correct in saying that. Do you feel like you would recommend that that's what we all be using anyway? And when you're testing this, I assume you're testing it with the butter you find in France.

David Lebovitz:

Well, I test the recipes here and then I usually have somebody in America test recipes as well. There is a difference, but I don't think it's that much. Like shortbread, there's a recipe for palets breton in the book, and that high fat butter, I tell people it's better to use that. The more water butter has, the more it soaks through, just for your listeners, and it's not as crisp and flaky and crumbly. I do advise people to use it in certain recipes, but once again, it's a barrier.

Jessie Sheehan:

To entry, I get you.

David Lebovitz:

Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:

So we're going to add our chilled unsalted butter cut into half inch pieces. I just wondered, when you are cutting butter using a bench scraper, do you use a chef's knife? What's your tool of choice?

David Lebovitz:

I use these really cheap steak knives that my partner won't get rid of, because I can just throw them in the dishwasher.

Jessie Sheehan:

Right, love. And then we're going to continue to pulse our mixture until it resembles coarse cornmeal. Then we're going to add an egg and an egg yolk and process until the dough comes together in a ball. We'll transfer two thirds of the dough to our prepared pan, and we'll use our hands to press it evenly into the bottom and about one and a half inches up the side of the pan.

Just a shout out for doughs that you can press into a pan. I love them so much. I think you even say, whether it's this recipe or another one, it may not be quite as even as maybe you could get in a recipe where you rolled. This is a different recipe of yours where you mentioned this, actually. I think it's in your cookie-like pastry dough, where you talk about yes, when you roll things out, there's this evenness that's very special, but there's nothing like being able to press in a dough.

David Lebovitz:

Well, I'm going to give you another idea for the Jessie Sheehan Baking Collection. It's a spray on tart dough. We spray it in a pan and it makes dough.

Jessie Sheehan:

I love it. And that's going to go in my spring form with my glass bottom.

David Lebovitz:

Exactly. It's easier to press the dough in than roll it out, because it's sticky too.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yep. And if the dough is very sticky ... I love this tip. It's such a good one for so many things, but we're going to lightly dampen our hands with water, and that will prevent the dough from sticking to them.

We're then going to spread some Concord grape jelly evenly over the dough. Are you making your own? Is this a brand? What's going on with this delicious sounding jelly?

David Lebovitz:

When people roll out the ropes, if they break, it's fine. You just piece them together because they're going to bake in the oven and it's going to be beautiful. We don't get Concord Grapes in France, unfortunately. And my partner discovered Concord grape jelly in America, and there's a lot of high fructose corn syrup. That's not something he eats all the time. He's crazy for it, so I brought a couple of jars back to France.

Concord grape jelly, I'm sure some brands don't have all that other stuff in it. I love the flavor. To me, the flavor of childhood is Concord grape jelly, so I use that.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yep, love. Now we're going to lightly flour our work surface. We're going to divide our remaining one third of the dough into four pieces, and we'll use our hands to roll each piece into a rope about 14 inches long. This Linzertorte that I mentioned to you earlier, that I developed where I didn't do peanut butter and jelly, I think I learned this from Alice Medrich. I just crumbled the rest of the dough on top, which was sort of pretty and fun.

But I wondered, I think I don't know Linzertorte recipes well enough, is that sort of standard, David, that you just roll out with your hands?

David Lebovitz:

Yeah, it's usually like a lattice top.

Jessie Sheehan:

No, I know it's lattice, but I guess I was thinking it was fussy, but this is really not fussy.

David Lebovitz:

Well, once again, I didn't want people to have to get a rolling pin out. That's sort of a deal breaker for people. And shout out to Alice Medrich, who I love as well.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I see. So if we were looking at a traditional Linzertorte, it actually might encourage us to roll out the bottom crust, and it might encourage us to roll ... Aha, love that, love that.

David Lebovitz:

One thing that's funny is, a lot of times these countries have a tourism department. They have the recipe on their website. It would be interesting, Austria probably has recipes, things like that.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yeah. So we're going to roll each piece into a rope about 14 inches long. And if the ropes separate as you're rolling them out with your hands, you can just pinch them back together and continue rolling it. It sounds like a very unfussy dough situation here.

We're going to cut each rope in half to form eight lengths, and then just lay four pieces of dough over the top of the tart, equally spaced, lay the remaining sort of positioned diagonally, equally spaced apart. It sounds so easy. It's not even a braiding, it's just a laying. I love, love, love.

Then we'll pinch off the ends of the ropes where they meet the dough on the sides of the pan. And does this mean we don't have to press down to adhere the strips to each other?

David Lebovitz:

No, because the dough is very soft, and it will melt. It'll soften and make this crust. It's funny, because I do say, you can use any kind of nut you want, because some people are allergic to peanuts. You can use another kind of jam. You can use raspberry, apricot, and so forth.

Jessie Sheehan:

And we're going to bake until the pastry is a deep golden brown. I remember the last time we talked, we talked about readiness cues, queuing up to the reader about what to look for. And you had said that you can be sitting watching TV with Romain and say, "Okay, whatever's in the oven right now is ready."

But in this instance, what we're really looking for is this deep, golden brown color. We're not inserting a toothpick, we're not waiting for a smell. And that's about 40 minutes. We're going to let it cool completely, run a knife around the side, help loosen it from the pan. Release the sides of the springform.

Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, David. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.

David Lebovitz:

Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's always a pleasure to talk with you, and I love chatting with you.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yay. That's it for today's show. Thank you to California Prunes for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.