Deb Freeman Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond.
Today's guest is Deb Freeman, the award-winning food anthropologist and writer behind the new documentary “Finding Edna Lewis,” which debuts on PBS, February 18th. Many of you know about Edna Lewis, who is one of America's most important culinary figures, thanks to her cookbooks and her approach to seasonality, sustainability, and farm-to-table cooking. But Edna is not as well known as she should be, so Deb wanted to do something about that. Deb was in New York for the debut of her documentary and she is thrilled that more folks will get to know about the magic and legacy of Edna Lewis. She's also very happy for folks to experience a project she puts so much of her heart and soul into. There's a “Finding Edna Lewis” tour across the country, so be sure to check out Deb's Instagram for city's dates and ticket information. The link to her Instagram is in our show notes. This interview was recorded at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. Stay tuned for my chat with Deb Freeman.
Today's show is presented by Alex Mill, Radio Cherry Bombe's brand-new neighbor. They opened a cool news store at the world-famous Rockefeller Center in Manhattan right next to where we record our show. I can literally see inside their store from where I'm sitting and be a nosy neighbor. So what's the neighborhood gossip? Well, it looks like the spring collection has arrived at Alex Mill. I spy striped shirts, which I have a total weakness for, a USA-made sweatshirt in Cherry Bombe pink that I can dress up or down, lots of vintage-inspired denim, even the cutest pajamas from their P. Jimmy's collab with Jimmy Fallon. I'm a big Alex Mill fan and own several of their pieces that I wear again and again. Alex Mill is one of those brands that simplifies your closet. I can throw on any of their pieces and look cool, classic and pulled together whether I've put on my Alex Mill slim cargo jeans or grabbed my monogram tote. I love that their clothing and accessories are thoughtfully designed, well-made, timeless and fun. Alex Mill is all about that perfect forever fave, not more clothes, but the right clothes. I have a feeling Alex Mill is going to be a great neighbor. Sure, I won't be able to borrow a cup of sugar or an egg from them, but when my spring wardrobe needs a little something, Alex Mill has me covered. If you find yourself in Manhattan, swing by Alex Mill at Rockefeller Center and tell them Cherry Bombe sent you, or visit alexmill.com.
Now let's check in with today's guest. Deb Freeman, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Deb Freeman:
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
You're here to talk about one of our favorite subjects, Edna Lewis. We have long admired Edna and her works, and for years we've been saying somebody has to do a documentary about Edna Lewis, and I'm so happy to say you are that person.
Deb Freeman:
Man, it's an honor to even try to bring her life to the masses, if you will. So many people in the culinary community love her and adore her, but so many people don't know her name. I hope that this documentary plays some small role into opening that door to the life of Edna Lewis and how magical she is.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned some people don't know her name. I'm hoping all of our listeners out there know who she is, but tell us who Edna is.
Deb Freeman:
Edna Lewis is really just a fascinating woman, but if I had to encapsulate in one sense, I would probably say Edna Lewis really is a pioneer in the farm-to-table movement. She's a cookbook author, she was a chef, and she really was instrumental in changing how Americans saw Southern food as a whole. And if you don't know who she is, immediately run and get “Taste of Country Cooking,” you will not be let down at all.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe the most important American cookbook.
Deb Freeman:
In my opinion. Of course, as a fellow Virginian, of course I'm going to say that, but that cookbook is so interesting because it does not read as a cookbook, and I think people, if you're unfamiliar, you open it, you think that you're going to just start on recipes, but really is a description of Freetown, Virginia, which is where she grew up, and it's a beautiful just prose-filled book that I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by.
Kerry Diamond:
I think it's important for people to not just own it but read through it. It really is the foundation on which so much of what we care about has been built, food-wise.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely. When we think about sustainability, when we think about farmers, when we think about seasonality, all of these are kind of these buzzwords and catchphrases now, and I think Ms. Lewis would probably say, "Well, this is just how we lived. This was just what we did," and now we're putting all this emphasis on it. How many years later? She was really just so ahead of the curve and how we really are supposed to eat.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your aha moment regarding the documentary? Like, I have to do this.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I mean I think that even before the documentary came about, I have been screaming to the rafters, where's the Edna Lewis Prestige series? I've been just anyone who would listen, I'm sure I sound like a madman
Kerry Diamond:
When you said Prestige series.
Deb Freeman:
Yes, absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
You need the Prestige series next.
Deb Freeman:
Because you think of Julie Child who I do love, but her story rather, on HBO Max, there's the entire series. Where is Ms. Lewis's series? And her life was fascinating, and I really have been thinking this needs to happen, and so ironically, I was doing an Edna Lewis dinner with Chef Leah Branch down in Richmond at the Roosevelt.
Kerry Diamond:
She's the chef at the Roosevelt.
Deb Freeman:
She is. She is. And so we were thinking about an Edna Lewis dinner. I was already in that mindset of what kind of recipes, how's the history going to be told? And literally got an email from people I had never met saying, "Do you want to do a documentary?" That's how it happened. I was just like, "Let's talk. What day are you free?" Immediately, yes. The rest is history as they say.
Kerry Diamond:
That's great. So you're in town. Well, tell us why you're in town.
Deb Freeman:
I am in town because we just had the premiere of “Finding Edna Lewis” yesterday at Pier 57, which was beautiful and lovely. Lots of tears. People were crying. I didn't expect that from watching the documentary, but it will actually be out for the rest of the world to see on PBS on February 18th. But we just had the first viewing where people were watching, and I'm not just kind of looking at angles or do I sound weird?
Kerry Diamond:
It's hard to watch yourself on screen sometimes, right?
Deb Freeman:
It's a little challenging.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, that's why we love podcasting.
Deb Freeman:
Right, I'm with you.
Kerry Diamond:
You had some VIPs in attendance.
Deb Freeman:
I did. Chef Mashama Bailey, who I did not expect to make time out of her schedule. She walked there. I was like, is Mashama?
Kerry Diamond:
So you had no idea Mashama was coming.
Deb Freeman:
I didn't know. And so I was just like, you have knocked me over with a feather. And it was just so lovely and beautiful and she's actually in the documentary, as you already know, she is head of the Edna Lewis Foundation, and so just for her to make time for that just really was just so lovely and sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
But also in terms of female chef talent, that's a little bit like Beyonce showing up unannounced at your events.
Deb Freeman:
I was like, can I have a picture? I know I filmed with you and that was cool, but can I have a picture please.
Kerry Diamond:
You've had a very interesting distribution strategy, so folks can watch the entire documentary shortly on PBS, but you've been releasing episodes one by one on YouTube.
Deb Freeman:
Right, that's right. So Virginia Public Media initially said, "All right, well we'll see how it goes. Do a episode. We'll see. We're still kind of thinking."And so we did the first one and then about halfway into the second one, we were actually self-funding some of that, and then finally we got the go ahead to do a full on documentary. And so we just kept going with this episodic theme.
But what's really special about what comes out later this month is there are things in this documentary that you don't see in these episodes, and I think one of the most important and just really emotional things are you hear Edna's voice throughout the full documentary and you see her talking. We have a clip that was just digitized in November. So it was literally on reel to reel tapes. It was a last minute kind of five second countdown, can we get this? Oh my gosh, are we going to get it? The University of South Carolina was so lovely and they digitized it for us. That was one of the last things that we were able to put into the film.
Kerry Diamond:
So her actual voice. That's incredible.
Deb Freeman:
People started crying last night. And the first time I heard it I was a little inconsolable to be honest, because I think that's was missing. Even though it was a beautiful story and I think it was well done, but I think that was missing her voice, someone being able to see her and being able to hear her. That was the missing piece. I almost kind of felt like, okay, I think Ms. Lewis is giving me the seal of approval.
Kerry Diamond:
A hundred percent
Deb Freeman:
It came in at the last minute.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, how'd you find it?
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, so randomly.
Kerry Diamond:
Goosebumps again, Deb, you're giving me goosebumps.
Deb Freeman:
I have to give all credit to one of our producers, Hannah Ayers over at Field Studio. She had been searching for any sort of archival footage and randomly Nicole Taylor in an interview back in June, July, we were talking, she's like, "There's this clip, she's talking about Christmas and what she would eat." And all of us were like, "What is this clip? Where'd you see this? Oh my god." Hannah tracked it down. They digitized it for us, and literally at the last minute it was ready and we were able to insert it before we had to send over to PBS.
Kerry Diamond:
Way to go, Nicole.
Deb Freeman:
Seriously.
Kerry Diamond:
Podcasting trailblazer, by the way.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
And author. We'll be right back with today's guest.
Jubilee is coming up. It's our biggest event of the year. It's an amazing day of connection and community and it is taking place in New York City on April 12th. If you are a Cherry Bombe member, be sure to use your Cherry Bombe discount when you buy your ticket. Also, if you're a member, you can apply for a Bombesquad booth and the chance to showcase your brand at a very special rate. You can find all the details on cherrybombe.com. And members, you can find your exclusive info in your inbox.
Going back to what you said you were doing the first episode and you did not yet have a green light to do the whole thing. Wow.
Deb Freeman:
We didn't. The first episode is that dinner that I was just talking about. Lance, who's the other producer, Lance Warren. Lance, Hannah, and myself felt it was so important to even just capture that dinner where people were kind of getting to eat Miss Lewis's food and getting together and just being communal. We just all felt we need to still do this. If nothing happens, then that's how it is. But we need something. We need something. That's how much I think all of us just believed in this project.
Kerry Diamond:
It must've been hard figuring out what to dedicate episodes to because she had a very long life and lots of chapters to that life as well. Some weren't even food related.
Deb Freeman:
I mean, pheasant farmer, you could do a whole 20 minutes on pheasant farming. Why was she doing it? What happened? A seamstress for Marilyn Monroe, what were we doing? So she had such a multifaceted life. But really it just came down to who can we talk to, who has a connection, who feels that connection and can speak to that in such a way that it would make sense to a viewer. That was kind of what weeded things out and how we were able to make those decisions.
Kerry Diamond:
And interestingly, much of her cooking life was based here in New York City.
Deb Freeman:
It was. It was.
Kerry Diamond:
Café Nicholson. Tell us about that place. It sounded amazing.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah. First of all, I'm not time traveler. I would love to be a time traveler. I want to go Café Nicholson because what a time, 1949 New York, and you're basically at the spot where luminaries are.
Kerry Diamond:
Celebrity hangout.
Deb Freeman:
Exactly. Ms. Lewis and her sister Ruth are in the back cooking, and so she was not the face of the restaurant, but the food was so southern, so black in a lot of ways, and people just kept coming back for more, which is beautiful. But yeah, she came here at a time where in the Great Migration, it was very common for African-Americans to travel north and other places leaving the south to just find opportunities, find jobs.
After she was a caterer for a lot of families here in New York, she got this opportunity to be executive chef, and she was also a partner, which black woman, 1949 partner in restaurant, question mark. She was known for, I would not say stereotypically southern foods. So you would find some fried chicken, but you wouldn't find collard greens, cornbread, the greatest hits of southern food, if you will. But it definitely had the beginnings of that seasonal, very fresh, going to the farmer's markets to really kind of get the best ingredients, and that's where her reputation really started.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to find one of those menus. The New York Public Library has a great menu archive. I think most of it is digitized, so I need to look and see if they have a Café Nicholson menu.
Deb Freeman:
That would be incredible. That would be incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
I'll tell you if I find it.
Deb Freeman:
Please do.
Kerry Diamond:
She also cooked at Gage and Tollner very late in life.
Deb Freeman:
Yes. She was much older.
Kerry Diamond:
All you chefs out there who were like, "This is going to kill me." She was like 80.
Deb Freeman:
She was.
Kerry Diamond:
Working in the kitchen at Gage and Tollner.
Deb Freeman:
And still going to the market, ring point, and she would go over there and choose. So the menu is kind of changing a little bit depending on what they have, but she is actually going, bringing it back and cooking. I'm tired now.
Kerry Diamond:
And she rode the subway to work. We had a guest on the podcast, Marcy Bloom. She and her husband owned Gage and Tollner at one point. She and Edna would ride the subway sometimes.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I mean, I think that says a lot about who she was as a person to be able to do that, and I'm sure financial is part of it, but I think passion is the other part of it. I think you have to have something in you to be at that point in your life to get up, be on the subway, as you said, go to the market, crack of dawn basically, and then come back and you're cooking all day and you're on your feet all day. I think that says something about who she was.
Kerry Diamond:
Her sheet crab soup is still on the menu at Gage and Tollner.
Deb Freeman:
It is. It is. And so last night, actually, Chef Sohui was there and she spoke about how she knew it was so important that there needs to be some reference to Ms. Lewis on that menu. And if you haven't been at Gage and Tollner, as soon as you walk in, there's a postcard at the hostess stand with her photograph on it so that immediately you're like, okay, who is this? This is something I need to find out. I think it's just really lovely that they keep her memory alive there.
Kerry Diamond:
And folks who are coming to New York, you should definitely put Gage and Tollner on your list of places to visit because there is so much history. I forget when it was built, but it was like the 1900s and when it closed, it had all these crazy lives, it was a clothing store, it was a subway or something. But the inside is landmarked, so they couldn't touch, thank God. They couldn't touch the inside. So you've still got the same bar that Edna probably leaned against every night. You've got all those mirrors and light fixtures and woodwork. Chef Sohui Kim, who you mentioned, she's the co-owner and chef of the place, but they really did the most beautiful job restoring it.
Deb Freeman:
Incredible. When you walk in, you're transported. It does not feel like it's 2025. I mean, you really do get a sense of what it was like a hundred years ago. It's beautiful and the food is excellent.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, let's talk about you. So where'd you grow up?
Deb Freeman:
I grew up in Norfolk and so I make this joke that people who are not from there call it Norfolk and I just, something in me dies a little bit.
Kerry Diamond:
You pronounce it again. I might be one of those people who?
Deb Freeman:
Norfolk.
Kerry Diamond:
Norfolk.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Stand corrected.
Deb Freeman:
I grew up in Norfolk, which is Virginia Beach. Most people kind of have idea. So it's probably about 20 minutes from Virginia Beach. Grew up there and went to school there.
Kerry Diamond:
Foodie family?
Deb Freeman:
My grandmother. My grandmother. I tell the story, I would come home from school. I never knew what we were going to eat for dinner. And so there would be anything from meatloaf or fried chicken to collard greens or chicken pastry, which I now know is chicken dumplings. I had no idea what that was.
Kerry Diamond:
You called it chicken pastry?
Deb Freeman:
Yep, that's what she called it. That's what she called it. And so these dishes that she was making from scratch, the only thing she made from a box was cornbread, but she changed the recipe for that. But everything else was from scratch. And so I was just literally running off the bus to be like, "Okay, what we got today? What's going on? Oh my God. And she had such an enthusiasm about food. She actually lived in New York for a few years and was obsessed with Jewish meals, sauerkraut, and she's the first person I ever heard from a Reuben about. I had no idea what a Reuben is. She loved those and she talked about hot dogs at Coney Island. And so I have romanticized view of New York growing up.
Kerry Diamond:
What's her name or what was her name?
Deb Freeman:
Helen Perkins.
Kerry Diamond:
Is Helen still with us?
Deb Freeman:
She is not. She passed about 10 years ago, but she was a brilliant, brilliant chef.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you call her grandma?
Deb Freeman:
I called her Nana.
Kerry Diamond:
Nana, okay.
Deb Freeman:
And the fun fact is I was doing my ancestry about a year ago, and on her marriage license, it said ‘cook’ under profession. And so now I'm like, wait a minute, did she cook in a restaurant? And no one knows. My mom doesn't know. Everyone's passed, so no one knows. I'm thinking, I think she might have been professional. God, like, what? That will explain why everything was so good I guess.
Kerry Diamond:
Family mystery.
Deb Freeman:
Totally. Totally.
Kerry Diamond:
How interesting. Maybe you'll crack that mystery one day.
Deb Freeman:
I'm determined to figure that out.
Kerry Diamond:
Was Nana doing fusion food since she loved Jewish food here in New York?
Deb Freeman:
I mean there were definitely lanes. You were not going to have Sauerkraut with a main with a protein. She definitely kept them separate. But she would often talk about going to the deli and she was upset there wasn't a good one in Norfolk, and that's what she missed. She was someone who was so curious about food and we would talk about food and how things were prepared. You could just see her kind of come alive when that was happening. I think that just kind of passed on to me.
Kerry Diamond:
Did she let you help out in the kitchen?
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I was in there a lot. I will tell you, it was more listening to her rather than doing. There are things that I wish I could prepare today that I would love to eat. I only can figure out a couple of things that she's made. Still doesn't taste as good, of course, but I was definitely always in the kitchen with her, at least watching her and listening to her because she told the best stories.
Kerry Diamond:
Was she doing everything from memory?
Deb Freeman:
Yep. Nothing was written down, which is such a hard thing. I think I figured out the collard greens. I think that and the cornbread and how to mix that up. The other stuff I'm all lost. I have no idea what's happening.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, it's a good reminder folks, if you have older family members and you love what they cook...
Deb Freeman:
Write it down.
Kerry Diamond:
Write it down.
Deb Freeman:
Have them write it down.
Kerry Diamond:
Or record them.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely. Absolutely. What I wouldn't give...
Kerry Diamond:
Well, she sounds like she was amazing.
Deb Freeman:
She was.
Kerry Diamond:
And not a surprise you're doing what you do today.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I mean I would've never thought in a million years I would be doing this, but it makes total sense.
Kerry Diamond:
You love food as a kid, you love your grandma. What did you think you're going to do professionally?
Deb Freeman:
I thought I was going to be an attorney and I was like, "Oh, of course. Maybe Supreme Court justice. And then I took pre-law in college. I was like, no, absolutely not. This is a bridge too far. So I majored in journalism. I do love writing, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to write about. I thought it would be more hard-nosed kind of news, but that didn't happen clearly, and I went into politics is what happened. So my first job out of college was working on Capitol Hill for Sheila Jackson Lee, the 18th district in Texas, and I'm showing my age, but this is when Bill Clinton was being impeached, and my member was on judiciary, so we were in the thick of it and I was 23 and just what is going on?
Kerry Diamond:
That's intense.
Deb Freeman:
It was extremely intense. There was no learning curve. You had to figure it out on the spot. And so I made a lot of mistakes clearly because I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. But somehow it all worked out. In one way though it does prep you for later in life and you learn to think very quickly on your feet. If you can't get something done in a specific way, you have to learn how to pivot immediately. So in that way it's actually very helpful for life in general, but it's extremely stressful in the moment though.
Kerry Diamond:
How long did you last in politics?
Deb Freeman:
Several years on the Hill too, and then I moved to research and polling. I've done campaign work. I've done columns. Overall 15 years. And then you kind of get a little burnt out sometimes.
Kerry Diamond:
Understandable, but probably all good training for a journalism career.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely. I think that that background really helped when I started food writing, being able to figure out what to ask someone and then if they said something interesting to then pivot and follow that thread. And it helps with research of course, because when you're writing about it, you want to have the right sources and all of that. It really did set me up to be able to do this work.
Kerry Diamond:
You call yourself today a food anthropologist, at least on your website you do?
Deb Freeman:
Yes. Someone called me that and I went, "You know what, that sounds good."
Kerry Diamond:
I think I only have interviewed one other food anthropologist, Casey Corn, who's fantastic. She's down in Atlanta. But tell folks what's a food anthropologist?
Deb Freeman:
So it's looking at culture through food. Because I think food is the gateway to be able to talk about really hard topics, and how people live and all of these kind of social issues. I think if you look at through the lens of food, it becomes a little bit easier for someone to listen to you to be more open to some ideas because we all have that common thread and these connections in our head with a memory in food or a person in food. And so I think it kind of allows someone to take their guard down a little bit if they're talking about a deeper social issue through food. And so that's really what I'm doing. I'm exploring race and class and culture through that lens.
Kerry Diamond:
When did you start podcasting? And tell folks the name of your podcast.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, so it's called Setting the Table. 10 episodes. It was one season and so that was about three years ago. On Whetstone Media. And that was a great experience. I had not podcast it before.
Kerry Diamond:
Really? I couldn't tell. You have a good podcast voice.
Deb Freeman:
You are very good. That was the first time, and so I really threw myself into that by figuring out what I want to cover. I have to really thank Steven Satterfield from Whetstone for allowing me to just go, okay, sure. And coming up with a concept and being able to run with it. I'm really proud of that because I put everything into it and I really wanted to make people understand how African-American food is not some "other" kind of food. It deserves to be on the canon of Chinese food or French food or Italian food. We don't talk about black food that way and we should.
Kerry Diamond:
It's interesting you said, getting people to understand what's going on in the world through the lens of food. I was listening to your episode about black female activists and food and you were talking about the Black Panther free breakfast program and how that food would be taken away from the children for no reason. The children had done nothing. That entire episode there were so many parallels to what's going on today and just kind of the cruelty and where is all the concern for people who don't have food and don't have healthcare and things that they need.
Deb Freeman:
No, absolutely. And the Black Panthers clearly were ahead of their time. I mean free lunch program that we think of that the government runs was based on the Black Panther free food program. I think there's something to be said about making sure that all of us can eat. We're not saying all of us need to have the finest clothing or what have you, but I feel like your basic needs, we need to be a little more compassionate about that, particularly children.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. I think about Alice Waters a lot in that respect. I mean, she has had the same platform for as long as we've known her. She just wants free healthy food for children. When's that going to finally happen for her? We're going to put something on Mars for God's sakes before that happens.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely. And again, and it's something so basic. Again, it's not a pie in the sky kind of thing, and I wonder why it is such a struggle for something that just seems intuitive in a lot of ways. It's cruel that there are children who cannot eat. It's actually really cruel.
Kerry Diamond:
And it should not happen in America today.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
100%. Plans for any future podcasts.
Deb Freeman:
I've been thinking about one, I've been thinking about one we're starting to pitch, so I'm very excited about it.
Kerry Diamond:
You should do an Edna podcast. Is that what you're pitching?
Deb Freeman:
It is not, but oh my God. But thinking about doing black distillers and black brewers because there's such a long legacy of what African-Americans have done in that arena.
Kerry Diamond:
Some of them are having a lot of success right now.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely. There's an episode on setting the table where I talk about this is not a new phenomenon. African-Americans have been doing that since we started in this country. And these are these little pockets of stories I think are so fascinating and people are like, what are you even talking about? Black women were brewing beer in the 1800s? Yeah, they were. And I just kind of want to talk about that. Because I think it's really interesting
Kerry Diamond:
And whiskey.
Deb Freeman:
Don't get started. Do not get me started.
Kerry Diamond:
You've got a lot of promo to do for “Finding Edna Lewis." What do you have planned in the weeks ahead?
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, so we are actually going to take the film on tour, which is super exciting. So we'll be out in L.A. and San Francisco. We're working on Charlotte, Detroit, D.C. So we've got a lot of things in the works. I just want as many people to see it as possible just because I think people may have questions when it's over. So it's exciting to be able to answer those questions and really be able to kind of engage with folks on that level. So the next few months are going to be traveling around with this movie.
Kerry Diamond:
That's fun.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I'm excited about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Are tickets on sale for all those cities?
Deb Freeman:
For some of them. Some of them. My Instagram is typically where I post everything. San Francisco is already on sale. There's one in Virginia that's already up, so if anybody who's in Virginia, please stop by, we'll be in Richmond.
Kerry Diamond:
This was your first documentary, right?
Deb Freeman:
First one, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you bit by the documentary bug or was it-
Deb Freeman:
Now I'm obsessed.
Kerry Diamond:
Now you're obsessed.
Deb Freeman:
I love it. It's a problem now because I've talked to Lance and Hannah and the other producers and I'm like, "I've got some more ideas guys. I've got ideas." And they're like, "We're going to take a little bit of a break." Let's take a couple of weeks, Deb, let's lay down somewhere."
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned a prestige series earlier when we were talking. Have you thought about working on something like that and pitching it to Netflix, HBO, all those folks?
Deb Freeman:
That definitely has been in the back of my mind, particularly after seeing the reaction, and not just my kind of reaction, but seeing everyone in the room and seeing how they would have gasp or cry or laugh at things that she said or things that they learned. I was like, oh yeah, yeah. So actually that's been in the back of my mind to kind of work on something like that because I think we could do about two and a half seasons, maybe three depending on if it's an hour or not.
Kerry Diamond:
And you have so many eras you can set it in.
Deb Freeman:
Totally. Imagine the costuming. Let's start there. Being beautiful, incredible. You can obviously start in Freetown, you go to New York and then there's Charleston and there's a lot you could do. Would love to see that happen. Of course, on like HBO Max, kind of with a real budget.
Kerry Diamond:
Apple TV+, Netflix, HBO, slide into Deb's DMs.
Deb Freeman:
I will answer that DM, quickly.
Kerry Diamond:
Any good food while you were here?
Deb Freeman:
Mark's Off Madison. We had that for brunch yesterday and my daughter inhaled the lasagna. I've never seen her eat that quickly.
Kerry Diamond:
Love lasagna.
Deb Freeman:
So she really got a kick out of that.
Kerry Diamond:
How old is she?
Deb Freeman:
She's 25.
Kerry Diamond:
Is she in media?
Deb Freeman:
She is not. She's in school. She's working on her second master's in art history right now.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh wow. What does she think she'll do one day?
Deb Freeman:
She wants to do curation with an emphasis on Asian art. All right, let's do it. Let's go.
Kerry Diamond:
Very cool. Is she your only child?
Deb Freeman:
She is. One and done.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that must've been nice for her to see your documentary.
Deb Freeman:
Oh my gosh.
Kerry Diamond:
And the reaction to it.
Deb Freeman:
I was trying not to cry and then she looked over and told me she was proud of me and it was just like, "I need to step away for a second because you can't say that to be in public. You wait until later to say that. Not right now. I have a face of makeup."
Kerry Diamond:
I hope it's an amazing tour and we'll help spread the word as tickets go on sale.
Deb Freeman:
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Kerry Diamond:
So yeah, I hope folks go out and see the documentary and get to hang out with you. Do you have a motto or a mantra?
Deb Freeman:
All is well. That's the thing I have to keep saying because even when it's crappy, it's going to work out. I have a sense of optimism that just kind of fuels me forward. So I just have to take a second and go, "All's well, it's going to be okay. This is momentary. You're going to get through this."
Kerry Diamond:
Have you always been a positive person?
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely not. And then I got divorced and then I was like, I have to rebuild my life and live it differently because I was so sad for a long time. And I started looking at things a little bit differently and started appreciating little things. And then over a couple of years or so I was like, "Okay, maybe it's not so bad." Maybe there is life after marriage and all of that, all of the things that come with that. And slowly I turned into one of those people I used to make fun of and now I'm like, "Hey, come on. What you doing? My God. It's good to see you." I know people are like, "Girl, calm down." It is not that deep. So I try to rein it in.
Kerry Diamond:
That's good advice for right now because I think a lot of people feel like they have whiplash right now.
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
But just to appreciate the small things.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, it's not easy, but I think if you just maybe find one thing a day, it'll help you think about things a little bit differently. But life is hard, and so the only way to cope with it's to find something that was good that happened that day.
Kerry Diamond:
Life is hard.
Deb Freeman:
It's tough.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you good at trusting your gut?
Deb Freeman:
Yes. So once I make a decision, so there's a flip-flop that happens and there's a turmoil. Sometimes the pro and con list, we'll see, depends what way it is. But once I make a decision, I'm all in.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you make pro and con list?
Deb Freeman:
Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
For a lot of things?
Deb Freeman:
Almost everything. It's really bad. I have a notebook in my bag.
Kerry Diamond:
I love this.
Deb Freeman:
Not to the point where it's like where I'm going to eat dinner or something, but things that matter. When you travel and maybe you have a limited amount of time. I could see the argument for that. I'm just saying. But yeah, for most things I do make a pro and con list. And then I kind of think about it and then I'm full steam ahead.
Kerry Diamond:
So interesting. And were you always good at trusting yourself and your instincts?
Deb Freeman:
I think honestly, I think that happened post-divorce because that was something that I didn't choose necessarily. And so once I was kind of on my own and had to raise my daughter, there was no one else I could kind of assign something to. I had to trust that I was smart enough to make those decisions. Don't be nervous about it. There was this whole thought of you're raising a kid, you're shaping their emotional stability. That's scary. That's scary, but I have to trust that I think I'm a good person. I hope I'm a good person. So hopefully what I'm doing is teaching her the right thing. And then that just kind of broadens into other aspects in life.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a good reminder for folks out there who are going through something, big upheavals, big life moments like divorce that sometimes you come out the other side okay.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, and it takes a while for sure, but I'm a stronger person because of it. Not that I would want to go through it again, but I think that I would not be able to handle this or any other major things in life if I hadn't been able to kind of figure out who I was and ground myself.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, thank you for sharing that.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
All right Deb, let's do a speed round.
Deb Freeman:
All right.
Kerry Diamond:
What beverage do you start your day with?
Deb Freeman:
Cranberry juice.
Kerry Diamond:
Cranberry juice?
Deb Freeman:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You are the first in the history of Radio Cherry Bombe to say that.
Deb Freeman:
Yeah, I'm a sucker for cranberry juice on ice. I'm a sucker for it. Yeah, it's always in my fridge.
Kerry Diamond:
Ocean Spray, sponsor that tour, sponsor it. “Finding Edna Lewis” tour.
Deb Freeman:
Just saying.
Kerry Diamond:
Anybody who works for Ocean Spray is listening, slide into Deb's DMs.
Deb Freeman:
The DMs are open.
Kerry Diamond:
Yep. All right, so you start the day with cranberry juice. What's always in your fridge aside from Cranberry juice?
Deb Freeman:
Besides Cranberry juice, Duke's Mayo, another sponsor now. But Duke's, it's got to be Duke's Mayo because-
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I'm in the Hellman's camp.
Deb Freeman:
Really? Really? Okay. I think we're forced to, there's some sort of law we have to like it.
Kerry Diamond:
And sweet tea.
Deb Freeman:
I hate tea.
Kerry Diamond:
You hate tea? Oh my goodness.
Deb Freeman:
I know. I cannot do it.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought you were going to say you hate sweet tea. I was like, then you have to leave the south, but no, you hate tea. Oh, how interesting.
Deb Freeman:
I know. I am not sure why.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you like coffee?
Deb Freeman:
Nope.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't drink coffee or tea.
Deb Freeman:
No caffeine. Coca Cola.
Kerry Diamond:
Straight up or Diet Coke?
Deb Freeman:
Oh, just straight up. Extra ice, please. Yes. And a straw in a can if possible.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your favorite food as a kid?
Deb Freeman:
Oh, that's so hard. That's so hard. Oh my gosh. If I had to pick one. Chicken pastry, I think is also watching my grandmother make it and roll the dough out with a glass. She would use a jelly glass to roll it out. But I can smell it now that I'm talking about it. I can smell it right now. I'm in the kitchen with her, so yeah, I'm going to go with chicken pastry.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite snack food today?
Deb Freeman:
I have a sweet and I have a salty, so if it's salty, we have these Amish stores and there's this mix, it's called Party Mix. I think it's their version of a Dorito, a Cheeto, and a corn chip and a pretzel. There's a ratio that has to be met. It's a whole thing, but that would be my salty snack. And my sweet snack would be a chocolate chip cookie.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?
Deb Freeman:
I'm almost embarrassed to say that I have not watched this until now, but “Mad Men,” and I'm obsessed right now with Don Draper, three episodes to go until I finish the series. It's just like, "Oh my God, what is going on?"
Kerry Diamond:
Three to go. Wow. If it makes you feel better I haven't watched “Mad Men.”
Deb Freeman:
I thought I wasn't going to like it, and then as it grew I was just like, "Oh, this dude is just insane."
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe I need to watch it. Yeah, I haven't seen that. I haven't watched “Breaking Bad.” I haven't seen “Game of Thrones.”
Deb Freeman:
Oh really?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Deb Freeman:
Okay. Well yeah, I haven't seen “Game of Thrones” either.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food film?
Deb Freeman:
“Soul Food,” because I think that one, I feel such a connection because it's very familiar. It's a great movie from the nineties if anybody wants to watch it. Vanessa Williams is in it and a ton of other great actors. But really just that Sunday dinner, and you gather and there's all this insane amount of food on the table. I relate to that very deeply.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your most used kitchen implement?
Deb Freeman:
I've been mispronouncing Staub for the-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, Staub. You know how to remember lobe, like ear lobe.
Deb Freeman:
I had never heard anyone pronounce it, so I was like, oh, it's Staub. And finally the other day someone was in the store, was like "Oh where's the Staub? And I was like, "What is Staub?" You mean Staub? Anyway, it's like a silicone spoon. I just use it for everything.
Kerry Diamond:
Staub has a silicone spoon.
Deb Freeman:
Yes. I wouldn't handle, and yeah, I just use it for spooning stuff, for stirring stuff, mixing. I use it for pretty much everything.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, cool. I only think of them with their cast iron and Dutch ovens and all that. Okay, good to know. Dream travel destination?
Deb Freeman:
I love Paris, so I'm just going to have to go with Paris. I'm going for my 50th birthday this year and I'm just like, "Come on, I'm ready to go." The first time I went, it was like touristy. You hit the sites. The second time I went, it was like, okay, I'm going to walk around a little bit. And then I was like, oh, now I get it. Okay. It's not about the Eiffel Tower and let me take all these pictures. It's about just sitting down with people and slowing down and eating some incredible food. I'm going to Paris.
Kerry Diamond:
And the best walking city I think.
Deb Freeman:
Totally.
Kerry Diamond:
I was going to say in the world, I haven't been to every city in the world, but I was just there and had the best time. We have a fantastic Paris list on our website of all the female-fueled places, so women-owned, they're the chef or the baker or whatnot. But it's a really good list and it's also exciting just to see how far women have come in the culinary scene in Paris. Still fairly male-dominated there, but women are making tremendous inroads and doing very cool projects.
Deb Freeman:
Oh, I'm going to have to check that.
Kerry Diamond:
I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you. Last question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Deb Freeman:
Martha Stewart, and here's why. I think she can cook anything, and I think she would have a lot of stories, and so I would just be like, "Okay, so what really happened?" And I think she would be interesting, but I also think she would give me my space when I'm like, "I really want to get the hell off this island." I think she might be thinking the same thing, so it wouldn't be somebody in my face all the time. And it will probably look pretty. There might be ferns over rocks, some sort of table scape.
Kerry Diamond:
She's a good choice because what can't the woman do?
Deb Freeman:
That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, I'm going with that.
Kerry Diamond:
Smart choice, Deb. Well, Deb, you are amazing. I love what you're doing with Edna Lewis's legacy. It's so important.
Deb Freeman:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
So thank you. I know how much work this documentary was for you and we're lucky to have it.
Deb Freeman:
Thank you so much. It means the world.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Anyone you want to hear on an upcoming episode? Let me know. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is a studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.