Deb Perelman Transcript

Deb Perelman Transcript

Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine, and each week, I talk to the most interesting women and culinary creatives in and around the world of food. 

Today's guest is Deb Perelman of Smitten Kitchen. Deb was one of the early food bloggers and has taught countless folks how to cook through her online recipes and popular cookbooks. Including her latest, “Smitten Kitchen Keepers: New classics for Your Forever Files.”

Some of you know I'm hosting another podcast these days, the Dishing on Julia companion podcast, for the Max Original series, “Julia.” If you haven't watched Julia, be sure to check it out. It's a delightful look at the life and times of Julia Child, and features folks you might recognize, including Avis DeVoto and the trailblazing editor, Judith Jones. Deb joined me last week for Dishing on Julia, so today's episode is an extended version of that interview. I had such a good time talking to Deb. I couldn't bear to leave so much good stuff on the cutting room floor, as they say. Deb is a modern day Julia Child, although she practically blushes, when I say that. She and I talked about the reasons why she is so linked to the culinary icon. And of course, we talk Thanksgiving. Deb shares what she's making and gives us a little Turkey Day advice. Stay tuned for my chat with Deb.

Today's episode is sponsored by the Republic of Tea. Drinking tea is a very sensory experience for me. From inhaling the aromas of the freshly brewed tea, to holding a warm mug in my hands. I love everything around the act of enjoying a cup of tea, and really consider taking a tea break a gift to myself. Speaking of gifts, the Republic of Tea holiday collection is the perfect gift for yourself, or the tea lovers in your life. There are more than a dozen blends in the holiday collection to explore and enjoy. Just the names alone will make you want to try them. There's Peppermint Bark, a cool winter herbal tea, that combines caffeine-free green rooibos, with peppermint and cacao. Sip and Be Merry is a robust blend of vanilla, cardamom and premium black tea. Add a splash of milk for some creme brulee vibes. And ready for this? Chocolate Babka tea. Yes, there is such a thing. This low caffeine blend of carob, dandelion root and cacao is such a treat. If you're looking for me, I'll be home with my tea kettle and my Republic of Tea holiday collection. Visit republicoftea.com for great tasting, holiday blends, gift sets and sampler packs. The Republic of Tea holiday collection is limited edition, so don't delay. A world of warmth and flavor is waiting for you. That's republicoftea.com.

Today's show is also supported by Knopf Cooks, the publishing house that has brought us iconic works from the likes of Julia Child, Edna Lewis, and Marcella Hazan. As well as many of today's beloved authors, including Sohla El-Waylly and Hetty Lui McKinnon. Knopf has a special treat for all of us dropping tomorrow. A beautiful new edition of “The French Chef” cookbook, which captures all the wit, wisdom and joie de vivre, of Julia Child and is based on her trailblazing TV show, “The French Chef.” Many of you already know and love Julia's classic, “Mastering the Art of French Cooking,” so here's another great work for all of us Julia fans to discover. “The French Chef” cookbook is a collection of more than 300 classic French recipes from ratatouille to chocolate mousse and every delicious course in between. “The French Chef” cookbook is available wherever books are sold. And don't forget, books make great holiday gifts. Visit Knopf Cooks on Instagram to learn more about their beautiful books and brilliant authors. And don't miss our French Chef giveaway on Instagram. Be sure to check it out at Cherry Bombe and good luck. Happy reading and happy cooking. Now let's chat with today's guest. Deb Perelman, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.

Deb Perelman:
Thanks for having me on.

Kerry Diamond:
I've said this to so many people, and I don't want to embarrass you, but you really are a modern-day Julia Child. Does that pain you when people say that?

Deb Perelman:
I feel so weird because I guess I don't really have an outsider view of myself, but thank you is something I should learn how to say. That was a compliment, so thank you.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about Smitten Kitchen first. So curious, the origin story. How did Smitten Kitchen come about?

Deb Perelman:
I started Smitten Kitchen in 2006, which is, absolutely crazy. It just started as a hobby. I really knew very little bit about cooking and I was just messing around.

Kerry Diamond:
Wait, that shocks me.

Deb Perelman:
I knew my way around a kitchen, but it was really just like a hobby where I was trying out recipes like, how to roast a chicken or how to make soup or how to make tomato sauce, from a can of tomatoes. And I was trying out recipes and I knew early on that I was very opinionated, like "Don't do this." Even from the beginning, I was like, "This was a bad idea. I wish the recipe had warned me about this." So I feel like it was always inside me and then, starting Smitten Kitchen just gave me a place to yammer on about the food I was excited about and the way I'd rather make it.

I did not expect it to last more than six months. I was confident that it was going to be a short-term thing. I didn't know why anyone would read a food site from somebody who is not a cooking professional, did not work at a restaurant, hadn't been to cooking school. I didn't expect it to last, and then here we are, I guess, it did.

Kerry Diamond:
So interesting. Well, it doesn't surprise me you thought that because you were one of the OG food bloggers. Just as Julia was the OG celebrity chef, that was you.

Deb Perelman:
Oh, wow. That's wild, that parallel, but thank you.

Kerry Diamond:
The name Smitten Kitchen, where did that come from?

Deb Perelman:
Oh my goodness. I have always loved the word smitten because there's this duality to it that delights me. You've got smitten, which is what most people are thinking of, which is like, in love. It's just so warm and fuzzy and romantic, and that's what I think most people think of the name. But I also like that it's like to smite and I like the ferocity of that. I like there was a little edge to it.

Kerry Diamond:
Well, it's a brilliant name. How many years? I can't do math. I was going to say 13. No, 17.

Deb Perelman:
I know, it's insane.

Kerry Diamond:
Your blog is older than your kids.

Deb Perelman:
Sometimes people will reference an early recipe, I'm like, "That's 17-year-old recipe."

Kerry Diamond:
That's a lot of-

Deb Perelman:
That recipe is driving. That recipe starting college in the fall.

Kerry Diamond:
What is that recipe? Do you remember the very first one?

Deb Perelman:
Oh, the very first one, I think, I was just riffing on this Thai eggplant salad I'd had in Food & Wine. It was far, I wouldn't say above my cooking level, but it wasn't really the center of what I was going to get into. I would say I started hitting my stride more with the chocolate peanut butter cakes and an early apple pie and certain salads that I still make today. When I started getting into what I had for dinner, it got a little more fitting.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your mom.

Deb Perelman:
My mom.

Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what the Judy Julia project was.

Deb Perelman:
I've joked about this, but my parents got married in 1968, which is crazy, and my mom didn't really know how to cook. Nobody really taught her and nobody thought that was going to be her destiny. And my mom is from Queens, a German Jewish family. My father's from the Bronx. Neither of them are great cooks, but my dad thinks he knows a little bit more than my mom. He thinks he's going to teach her how to cook. And my mom was like, "No, absolutely not." The idea of having this person, it was not appealing to her in any way. Around that time, she turns on PBS and she sees “The French Chef” and she falls in love. She absolutely loves this. She's like, "This is it. This is what I want to cook."

Kerry Diamond:
She's smitten.

Deb Perelman:
She's smitten. I think she liked her loud voice and her surprising demeanor and her, I don't know, there's a real imperfection to it, but she's also making this food that everybody loves. Like omelets and asparagus and onion soup and beef bourguignon. These are my mom's favorite foods so these are things we ate growing up. Totally normal.

Kerry Diamond:
We know the Julie Julia project. Your mom basically embarked on what you have called the Judy Julia Project?

Deb Perelman:
Yes. I wouldn't say she cooked right through it, but I think she learned a lot of stuff from the books, early on, and she found the cooking that she wanted to do that excited her.

Kerry Diamond:
And was it “Mastering the Art of French Cooking?” Was that the one she cooked through?

Deb Perelman:
I think it was that and she has the second book too. I have to ask her specifically which things she's tried or maybe I'll just check where the bookmarks are, but she did a little bit of each, and I remember it being peppered in growing up. Nothing fancy but just, if it was company was coming over or I remember the first time my in-laws came over, my mom made beef bourguignon, as one does.

Kerry Diamond:
Did you watch Julia growing up?

Deb Perelman:
I feel like I watched it a few times. I'm probably old enough that it would've been on, but not a lot. To me, at the time, I was probably a kid watching “Sesame Street” and it seemed old-fashioned and different to me and it wasn't relevant to me in my life at the time. But I love watching old episodes now because there's something so wonderfully unpolished about it, and I think that that's so surprising because everything on TV these days, even the stuff that's not supposed to be polished, is so polished. The food never looks imperfect. There's never like, "Whoop, we ran out of time to take a bite, "that would never happen. Of course we have editing now, but, I thought it's really interesting to watch

Kerry Diamond:
When people do call you a modern day Julia Child, why do you think they make that comparison?

Deb Perelman:
I have no idea. We share a publisher, which is very nice.

Kerry Diamond:
Knopf.

Deb Perelman:
Yes, also published by Knopf. I don't know, I'm not trying to be perfect or anything like that, I just want things to work. I think something really interesting and what's very relevant about what Julia Child is, she took this classic French cooking and she tried to make it work for American Housewives. What did you call it? The servantless American cook. I mean, I was like, "Servants? I didn't even know that was an option." But you read that and it sounds so silly, but at the time, it was like semi revolutionary. It wasn't like condescending cooking, it was like, you can do this cooking. And I love that energy.

Kerry Diamond:
And when you were talking about Julia and her TV show and the lack of perfection in the show, that was not something Julia was striving for. Do you feel like you try to convey that in your recipes and in your writing?

Deb Perelman:
It turns out if you're really imperfect and you don't try to fix it, you actually can convey it naturally. Turns out, if I just refuse to reshoot things 10 times. I think our job is to be human beings. I'm not trying to be aspirational, I don't want to be aspirational. I'm not comfortable with people aspiring in my direction, so, I would much rather show what it's like to be a regular human being who is an interest in food and in that way I'm also not required to make things really perfect.

Kerry Diamond:
What do you think is the biggest difference between you and Julia?

Deb Perelman:
The biggest difference, I am chewing on this question because, I feel like our backgrounds are so different. She's from a completely different time. I feel like, I could be wrong and I don't want to read in where I'm not reading in, but, by the time she was married, I'm not sure she was really expected to work, which meant it was time to find hobbies. Which means that she could have a hobby of going to cooking school, which I could not imagine less being like my life. My hobby was something I had to work... In the evenings, I used to go up to Riverdale for work and I'd be doing this in the evenings. It was never an option not to cook. I considered cooking school and it was so expensive and I wasn't sure that the debt I was going to take on I'd ever pay down, which is, an unfortunate reality I've heard from a lot of people.

I don't want to say that the difference is privilege, because that's unfair. That's just you are who you are, but it is a bit of it. I feel like she might be braver than me. I feel like I try new things and you might only hear about the things that go well, but I think it's just incredible that she was like, "I have a vision for a cooking show." I couldn't even imagine. She thought big and I think that's amazing.

Kerry Diamond:
Deb, what did you do before Smitten Kitchen?

Deb Perelman:
I was a tech reporter. I was an art therapist for a while. All of these things now relative to how long I've been doing this, are little blips on the radar. I worked at coffee shops, worked at an ice cream shop in college. I ran my college radio station. It was like this big, so I feel like I was a real dabbler before I figured out the combination of things that made me happy, which is, really funny. Because if I had listened to my grandmother, she told me this is what I should have been doing the whole time and I was like, "What are you talking about? I don't know how to cook."

Kerry Diamond:
Wait, grandma did tell you that? How did she convey that message?

Deb Perelman:
Actually, I only heard about it later, to be honest. And I heard it a little bit from my mom where, I think I had selected the college I was going to go to and made my plans. My mom was like, "Oh, I'm glad." I mean, I obviously was going to go to college regardless, but, I didn't know that there were other people who saw that this is something I could have done at the time.

Kerry Diamond:
Was your grandmother a good cook?

Deb Perelman:
She was a great cook. There are two grandmothers. One didn't really cook and the other one was a great cook. She was a great baker and I definitely have a few of her recipes.

Kerry Diamond:
And would you say your mom was a good cook?

Deb Perelman:
My mom was a good cook, yes. She can follow a recipe, she can get it done. She's unintimidated by recipes, which I really like. I remember the day I wanted to make apple strudel and I was like, "This is scary. This is terrifying. Mom, come over and help me." She's like, "You just follow the recipe." If you follow it should work and it shouldn't matter whether you know a lot about strudel or yeast breads or whatever." I think she was unintimidated. I would not say the cooking was particularly fancy at home, it was just regular cooking.

Kerry Diamond:
What were some of your mom's regular dishes that she would serve up?

Deb Perelman:
We'd always have a salad with dinner.

Kerry Diamond:
You always had a salad with dinner?

Deb Perelman:
We always had a salad with dinner. Is that not?

Kerry Diamond:
Were you an eighties kid?

Deb Perelman:
I was an eighties kid. We always had a salad and my mother loved more interesting lettuces, but she was stuck with icebergs so it was all her kids would eat. Sometimes we'd move into romaine.

Kerry Diamond:
Iceberg was all there was.

Deb Perelman:
Do you remember the Good Seasons salad dressings?

Kerry Diamond:
I do, yes, of course.

Deb Perelman:
They're so great. I talk about these all the time. "What happened to these?" Well, you know with the carafe, where you would fill the oil up to one, and the vinegar. That was always the salad dressing, semi homemade, but it wasn't that complicated. It was spaghetti and meatballs, it was roast chicken. My mom loved lamb chops when she could get them. We did some London broil I feel like was the go-to steak. Maybe a hamburger in the summer, but it wasn't anything too crazy peppered in with some French classics. My mom loved a quiche.

Kerry Diamond:
Did you cook with your mom?

Deb Perelman:
Not much, not a whole lot and I fear I'm repeating that with my kids, but we're working on it. Mostly because I'm usually cooking when I'm at work. I'm not cooking as much and usually I'm not cooking that much on the weekend to save my sanity. But, I think for a little bit, I was certainly around it, but most of it I figured out on my own.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Thank you to OpenTable for supporting this episode. We just wrapped the second leg of our Sit with US Community dinner series with OpenTable that spotlighted amazing female chefs and female-led restaurants, across the country. We visited Chef Evelyn Garcia of Jun, in Houston, Chef Renee Ericksons, The Whale Wins, in Seattle, Parachute by Chef Beverly Kim and Chef Camille Becerra, As You Are, at Ace Hotel Brooklyn. As you can imagine, I ate a lot of great food. It was so great seeing everyone who joined us and we can't wait to get back on the road. If you'd like to experience any of these restaurants, and I highly recommend them all, head to opentable.com or the OpenTable app. If you visit any of these restaurants, be sure to tell them Cherry Bombe says hi.

The new issue of Cherry Bombe's Print magazine just dropped. It's our holiday issue and the theme is Host With The Most, and Molly Baz is our cover star. It's a great issue packed with stories and recipes and gorgeous photos, and it's printed as always on thick lush paper. Visit cherrybombe.com to pick up an issue or subscribe or get a copy at your favorite local bookstore or magazine shop. Now back to today's guest.

Let's talk about recipes because that is a big topic of discussion in the first two episodes of season two. Julia and Simca just cannot decide... Well, first off, they can't agree on the recipes.

Deb Perelman:
I really like that. I was watching the first episode and I really liked that because I felt it's a real thing that happens. Because any recipe that has its foot in a couple doors, you have the aspirations you have for the recipe and then you have the reality of how it's going to be made and if it's going to be made. And if you make something too aspirational and perfect, nobody's going to make and that's okay. There's a place for recipe books like that, but if you're really trying to make it for the servantless American cook, things are going to have to be adjusted. And your comfort level, and I think the success of it, will have to do with being a very good translator of these ambitions into something simple with things you can get at a grocery store.

Kerry Diamond:
How do you decide what recipes make the cut?

Deb Perelman:
It's a gut thing and sometimes it's just asking around, where I have to hear people out and I have to be reminded that not everybody is as into fennel as I am, even if they're wrong. But I would say it's a little bit, a lot of paying attention. One thing I'm really lucky about is I have a very active and busy comment section on my site and it's like my unpaid testing research where, people will tell you, they will tell you what they don't want to do. "Deb, why does this have three pots? Can you rework this?" Or, "Why am I chiffonading anything, Deb?" They will say it. And if you listen, the information's there and it really can help you point your cooking in a direction that'll be more usable and useful to other people.

Kerry Diamond:
Are you a stickler about recipes in the same way that Julia was?

Deb Perelman:
Absolutely. I love a recipe. I love a recipe. I'm not saying I couldn't make soup out of what I have in the fridge. I don't want to. I want to make the good soup, the one I've made before where I knew exactly the right amount of celery and onion. And I think we should defend recipes and also our innate desire for some of us to come home and actually have somebody else take the wheel. Somebody just tell me, "I will do the thing, but I don't want to think anymore." I've been running my adult life my whole day and sometimes it's really nice for a recipe to just say, "Here's how to make a really great dinner. I got this."

Kerry Diamond:
You hear a lot of chefs and cookbook authors these days who say, "I want to do a whole cookbook with no recipes, but my publisher said I had to."

Deb Perelman:
I think there's room for both kinds. There are people who feel really, "This is really restricting me and I know what I want to do," and I think that's great. But for me, when I've made a vegetable soup or a bean dish or a chicken exactly the way I loved it, I'm going to start there and if I want to do it with different things, I will, or different ingredients or what I have. But I'm going to start with something that I know works because, I don't want to play roulette twice.

Kerry Diamond:
Have you become more intuitive over the years?

Deb Perelman:
Definitely become more intuitive where I can just look at a recipe and think, "There's no way we have to cook those lentils separately." Or, "Why are we pre-cooking the potatoes?" Or, "I don't think the potato peels are really... I'm getting faster at getting to the gist of what I want to do. I still might go in the kitchen and it'll be an absolute fun. I'm like, "Oh, that's why we kept the potato peels on," and I'll figure it out. But, I'm a little bit better at, it took 17 years, at getting to the heart of a recipe and figuring out what I want to do with it.

Kerry Diamond:
I want to go back to this comment section. It's a very friendly comment section. Yes.

Deb Perelman:
It is a friendly comment section. It is wild, it can happen on the internet, I promise. I think I have very nice people reading, but I think it's a little bit of moms in the room listening and your behavior might be a little bit different. Because I am paying attention. This is not the Wild West. I read, I see it, I respond. If it's a question mark, I try to answer it. I mean, not every comment's going to be responded to, but, I try to answer questions. And I think it's a little different when you don't feel like you're shouting to the abyss, you might feel nicer.

Kerry Diamond:
One of the things I love about the show is that they are communicating different things through Julia. This is not a show about food. I mean you can watch it and it's a show with gorgeous food in it, especially episode two with those amazing scenes and provenance of the Cook off dinner between Simca and Julia. But they use Julia as a vehicle to talk about other things, reproductive rights, women's place in the world. But I feel like when I go to your site, food is food.

Deb Perelman:
It's not quite though. I mean, I feel like that's where the head notes were, the framing of it. Of why this? Why today? What's relevant and what it reminded me of? Here's a funny story. I don't think recipes are as interesting as where they come from and the context around them. And that's why, for me, a recipe without a headnote is really missing something. Because, the internet is full of just recipes, but, why this one? "Can you tell me why you chop the carrots this way?" And, this is unusual. You have to have faith.

And if you knew that somebody could either explain why that recipe or why this technique works or even like, "It doesn't seem like it but this mushroom dish is actually really great appetizer too." Somebody to say that stuff. I want to hear the voice behind it.

Kerry Diamond:
If I'm interpreting this correctly, food's not so much about politics for you, but it's about storytelling.

Deb Perelman:
I think it's about storytelling. I think it's about home, it's about comfort. It's about what you want to have on the table and what you want to put in your body and who you want around the table and who you invite over and where you shop and what you can... There's so many other pieces, and I think a good recipe will be aware of all of them.

Kerry Diamond:
Tell the listeners what a headnote is. Folks might not know.

Deb Perelman:
Headnote is the blurb above a recipe. It could be a sentence or two, and in classic cookbooks it really is. It could be, food blog style, an entire essay about your grandmother, which is always the classic, like, "Oh my goodness, get to the recipe already." It's a little bit in between. Usually it relates to the recipe, but it does not necessarily have to, if the story can tell it enhance in some way. "Oh, let me tell you about the person who gave me this recipe." But it's basically everything that's not the recipe, that comes before the recipe.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about food styling. Where do you stand on that?

Deb Perelman:
You know what, just like me, the food sometimes needs better light to look cute, but, I think it's a reality. I don't think it's beneath us to care about food styling. I'm sure they probably thought it was frivolous that TV was a thing, but this is just the reality. This is the media we're in. Including podcasting. It matters. It's just another way to express what you're trying to express. I try to take it seriously, but not overly styled.

I also don't want my food to look different from yours. It might have better light. Maybe I thought about the plate I put it on, but it shouldn't be, like, "I made this and it look nothing like hers and now I feel bad about my cooking." How is that going to be part of my goals for cooking at all or sharing recipes? I'm looking for it to look the way it would look at home, but maybe I clean up the plate. Maybe.

I do think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding about food styling because people think it's just hairspray and toothpicks. But the food stylist in any magazine or any book, they're actually the cook. They may not be developing the recipes, but they're also cooking it. They're often getting the groceries and making the dish happen. Their job is not hairspray. Not that there would be anything wrong with that, but this is not just zhuzhing chicken skin. There is a lot more skill to it.

Most of them have gone to cooking school, and it's a real skill set. And the reality is, we want to see our food these days. We can do for color printing, it's not prohibitively expensive anymore. And that means that you're going to want it to represent the way you want the food to look for other people.

Kerry Diamond:
And there is a movement today in food styling to avoid all that trickery and the fakery. Christine Tobin, who's the food stylist on “Julia,” almost all the food that you see in the show is actually cooked from Julia's recipes.

Deb Perelman:
It's great and it's so great because it means that if you go home and you're inspired, and you go pull out the book from your shelf and you make this fish and the pastry, it's going to look like that. And you can see that's imperfect and I think that's the right way. And that's very central to what I like to do with my own pictures because, it's that idea of, it's good light, maybe it's good ingredients, but it's just home-cooked food.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a favorite character on the show?

Deb Perelman:
Oh my goodness. I think I am enjoying Avis so much.

Kerry Diamond:
Everybody loves Avis.

Deb Perelman:
I think she's very enjoyable. I'm also really enjoying Alice Neiman's character. I feel like they've tried to make her a real human being. They don't just exist as props for Julia. I love that they get their own stories and their stories... Their lives don't need to be neatly wrapped up so Julius can succeed, they can have their own struggles that continue from season to season, which I think is really nice.

Kerry Diamond:
Your most recent cookbook is called “Keepers.” Tell us about this book.

Deb Perelman:
“Smitten Kitchen Keepers” is my third cookbook. It's almost a year old, but it still feels like a baby to me. I still feel like I'm getting so much use out of it and I hope other people are too. It's not wildly different from my first two books, but I had a different rule for it. I mean, all three books have breakfast, lunch, dinner and cake, as I call it. But this book in particular, I was like, "Is this a forever recipe? I want the chicken and dumplings in there to be the last chicken and dumplings recipe you need. The last poundcake recipe you need." I started thinking about that a lot, and it really helped me filter things into the book. It made it a little bit easier than just anything. I like.

Kerry Diamond:
What makes something a ‘Smitten Kitchen Keeper?’

Deb Perelman:
I feel in my gut that, this is the one I've been looking for. This is the one that does everything I want it to do. And the thing is, it's not, I know it sounds crazy, but it is about outcome. But once you know you like the outcome, it is about so much more. It is about the experience of cooking it. We don't talk enough, it's not just about putting something beautiful on a plate, it's about, "Did you hate making it?" That pound cake is, it's a one bowl. I love to see as many pieces as possible. Can I use the package size of the ingredient? Are we going to use the whole tub of sour cream? The entire stick of butter?

I just want it to be, if it can work with that, without being compromised, I want that. I want it to be easier to shop for. If I can get it down to one bowl or two at the absolute most, I want to do it. If we can bake it in standardized cake pans, I want to do it. It's about a process leading up to it and also an outcome. Because of the process that you're not going to make it again.

Kerry Diamond:
We have to talk about your first cookbook because you were awarded the IACP Julia Child Award.

Deb Perelman:
I was so flattered. It was such an honor. It's an award for our first cookbook. I don't remember who I was up against that year. I was in such a whirl of book touring and I didn't know what was going on until I heard about it. But I was very honored and it's crazy to see Julia Child. I wonder what she would think of the book. It's so different from the way she cooks. I don't know if she would see the spirit of it, which might have some similarities or just what is this nonsense? We have no idea. What is this gobbledygook?

Kerry Diamond:
Why do you say it's so different from the way she cooks?

Deb Perelman:
She had a specific vision of classic French cooking and how we can apply it at home in America, where she grew up. But how does this work for home cooks? I don't have a specific vision except for, I enjoy this dish or this was something really good I had at a restaurant. My recipes are more wind based and hers are more based on the specific type of classic cooking.

Kerry Diamond:
Did you cook from Julia's books ever?

Deb Perelman:
I have. I have also made her beef bourguignon. I always made her onion soup. I've made some of her quiches. I love this, I don't think it's in a specific book, but she described it in the book of her letters I think to Avis where, she was talking about this baked spinach she had had and it's now my favorite baked spinach. And you're thinking, "Oh, it must be laden with cream and everything else." It's not. I think it's a misunderstanding of French food that although it values butter and it's not afraid of butter, not everything is so crazy rich. I love this baked spinach. I want to make it for Thanksgiving.

Kerry Diamond:
Also in this episode we have the arrival of Judith Jones at the house in Provence. Try to figure out why is this book taking so long? You have somewhat of a connection to Judith Jones.

Deb Perelman:
A little bit of a connection. My publisher of my three cookbooks is Knopf and although Judith Jones passed away a few years ago, I know in the beginning my editor Lexie Bloom had worked with Judith a bit. And I know there was a little bit of overlap in the time between my book being signed. I think Judith might've just been at large or nearby but I know that she had chatted with her about my book. I want to know what they said though, I didn't ask at the time. I was probably too afraid.

Kerry Diamond:
You should ask now.

Deb Perelman:
I should definitely ask now.

Kerry Diamond:
It's just so exciting to think that a little bit of that Judith Jones pixie dust was sprinkled by association over project.

Deb Perelman:
She's such an incredible person. Imagine having such an eye for cookbooks. So many of the household names that we consider classic chefs like classic cookbook out, they're all Judith Jones. And in the first season you just see her struggling. You see her struggling because she's not doing her classic fiction. And my editor also did a lot of fiction before she went to cookbooks full time. And that struggle she's having where they didn't really understand what she was doing or how it could be a literary pursuit. And I think that's something Knopf does really well.

Kerry Diamond:
Her work life's not that much easier this season either, as everyone will see. But some of the things you alluded to, she was the editor of Edna Lewis, one of the most important American chefs. She also is responsible for the cookbook career of Madhur Jaffrey and so many others.

Deb Perelman:
James Beard.

Kerry Diamond:
Mm-hmm.

Deb Perelman:
We had James Beard too.

Kerry Diamond:
And at the same time, she's the person who rescued the Diary of Anne Frank from the slush pile.

Deb Perelman:
Which is what she would had recently done by the time she found Julia, and people couldn't believe that wasn't something she was going to work on. She really had a very keen eye for storytelling, ear for storytelling. And I love the way, to her it was no different to publish a cookbook. That there could be stories in there just as relevant as some of the most important texts. That's incredible.

Kerry Diamond:
With Thanksgiving coming up, I cannot let you go without talking a little bit about what a Smitten Kitchen Thanksgiving is.

Deb Perelman:
Well, Smitten Kitchen Thanksgiving this year is two things. It's a Friendsgiving and it's the actual thing, but I'm actually not hosting either this year. I think people are sick of being stuffed tiny apartment, I won't take it personally. But the amount of food I bring with me wherever I go is just crazy. It's tote bags full. I'm making just two salads. I'm not making desserts because we have some birthday cake for friends and I'm going to make some dinner rolls. And then my husband decided he wanted to make my challah stuffing too, so we're just drowning in ingredients at home waiting for me to get home and get to work.

My mother-in-law is making the Turkey for the big Thanksgiving this year. But she uses my recipe and it's the dry brine Turkey with roasted onions. And I love this recipe is the only Turkey recipe I've ever published because it's the only one you'll ever need. And what I love there is that, it's a very simple, you do this, you salt it a couple days before if you've got time, you definitely should. It makes a very juicy bird without the mess of a wet brine. I've done wet brine before, it's stressful. I won't do it. I mean if you have a spare fridge and a spare room, that's good, but that's not my Manhattan apartment life personally.

I do a dry brine and you can keep it in the fridge for a couple of days. And then, all I do is I make a very simple glaze with butter, maple syrup, and I use a little bit of chili paste. It's not spicy, but it gives it a beautiful color. I actually use gochujang and you brush that all over the Turkey. And then in the bottom, instead of doing a mix of vegetables, I actually do a ton of onions. I do wedges of red and yellow onion. And as the Turkey bakes and you're brushing extra glaze over, it's dripping down onto these onions. And those onions are unreal. They're the star of the show, not one scrap of them will be left behind and I love that it creates its own perfect little side dish.

Kerry Diamond:
That sounds so good. Do you make a gravy of what's left behind?

Deb Perelman:
Exactly. My favorite way to make gravy is actually just brighten the pan. You put that roasting pan across two burners. You take the Turkey out, you got to rest it a little bit. You can scoop out all the onions and we're going to put those in a bowl and then get people to not eat them as they walk by, which will be hard. And then you just add butter or whatever fat. If you have drippings in the Turkey, you can do that. What I actually like to do, you've got all this stuff in the pan, turn both burners on a high, you cook off everything in there, until you just get down to the fat. And then eyeball it.

Is it four tablespoons? I'm trying to get to half a cup, whatever the difference is. I personally add butter. You can use another fat if you want. I use fat to get to about half a cup, add some flour, grape it up. I usually deglaze it with a little bit of Madeira, which is my favorite flavor in gravy. But you don't have to have it. And then you just add, if you have Turkey broth, that's great. Or if you have chicken broth, it works fine and then you just make the gravy from there. You can straighten it at the end if you want to be fancy, but those little bits of flavor from the pan are so good in there.

Kerry Diamond:
And then you said you love the Julius spinach dish as a side?

Deb Perelman:
I do. I feel like every table needs a few things. It needs an orange, it needs something creamy. You should have something rich. It could be potato gratin or mushroom gratin or Brussels sprouts. Something can be creamy. I think it's nice to have some orange stuff. It could be sweet potatoes, carrots, squash, or a couple versions you need to salad and I want greens. And you can have any green too but I have to say this baked spinach is highly agreeable, and it's just a really nice contrast on the table. And it's baked with, instead of being with cream, it's actually kind of like a thickened broth. And you do put some cheese on, but it's not a crazy amount.

I feel like for all the French reputation of having very heavily cheese dish, there is far more cheese in American dishes. I can't remember it off the top of my head, it's just a couple ounces in this whole dish. And then you can put some breadcrumbs on top if you want, but it's just so good.

Kerry Diamond:
And then dessert, what are you serving for dessert on Thanksgiving?

Deb Perelman:
Oh my goodness. I have to make different things for different families and different people. All right. The traditional ones are, you've got to make pumpkin pie. My grandparents always loved apple pie and I have a great recipe on the site for a cranberry pie with thick pecan streusel and it's just so good and it's gorgeous. I think it's probably a site favorite. Also, I make this, it's actually adapted from the Leads City Bakery. It's a Maury Rubin recipe and it's a butter scotch tart with sliced almonds and whole cranberries in it. And my husband asks for that every year. I also make this old bourbon pumpkin cheesecake from an old gourmet magazine and it is really good. I usually make it pan size these days, it's easier to cut up.

Finally, there is a butterscotch apple crisp in my last book, in “Smitten Kitchen Keepers,” I think is one of the best recipes I've ever made and I don't say this often. It is so good and I think if you don't want to faff around with pie dough, this is the move. It's going to be more popular anyway.

Kerry Diamond:
I need to check that out.

Deb Perelman:
Just a few things.

Kerry Diamond:
Are people intimidated to invite you over for dinner?

Deb Perelman:
I hope not, but maybe that's why I don't get invited for dinner more enough. I love going over for dinner. I judge restaurants, I don't judge friends' homes. And it is so nice to be cooked for. It's such a special thing. It is like what I make my livelihood and my hobby and my enjoyment is from feeding people. And I love when it comes back around. Imagine coming over and you didn't do anything and dinner is made? I don't think I've experienced it very often.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you think people were scared to invite Julia over for dinner?

Deb Perelman:
Oh, they must have been. They must have been. I'm going to have to find a better way of explaining. I'm not judging, I am so happy to be there. I'm in it for around the tableness, and it's not about whether the chicken was perfectly cooked at all. That's not what you're there for.

Kerry Diamond:
We might've found the place where you and Julia differ. Because, Chef Eric Ripert, in the first episode of Dishing on Julia for season two, told us by the time Julia came to Le Bernardin, his restaurant, he served a raw tuna dish on purpose and Julia told him it was undercooked.

Deb Perelman:
Did she know it was supposed to be raw?

Kerry Diamond:
Obviously not.

Deb Perelman:
I mean, there's going to be some point where I probably am not absorbing new ideas either. I'd like to think she was pretty far out there in the years, but maybe not. That is hilarious.

Kerry Diamond:
People don't have to worry when you come over though. You're not going to judge if something's a little undercooked.

Deb Perelman:
No, I'm not. I don't want you to show-

Kerry Diamond:
Purposefully undercooked.

Deb Perelman:
No, it's not even like I'm turning it off. I'm just like, I'm very happy to be there. It's a really beautiful thing to open up your table in your home to somebody. It's great.

Kerry Diamond:
That's a nice little tee up for the last question. Julia is coming over for dinner, what do you serve?

Deb Perelman:
Do we make tuna tartare?

Kerry Diamond:
Eric said he's going to make that again.

Deb Perelman:
I don't know, but, while am just thinking about it, I feel like it would be really fun to do. Spare ribs. I would never make French food for her. I feel like I would make anything but, because she's got this covered. But I also think you really can't go wrong with a really good roast chicken and vegetables, which is what I'm actually making for dinner when I get home. I'm going to try to spatchcock the chicken and then I want to put a lot of vegetables around it. I'm going to make a little sauce that we eat with the chicken. I love a little herby thing. And then I think I'm going to stop tasting greens because I'm craving it. So we'll see how much of that gets done before six o'clock.

Kerry Diamond:
You're going to roast a chicken for Julia Child?

Deb Perelman:
I think I'm going to do it. It's basically what I'm making for my family for tonight and I think she should come over and have that too.

Kerry Diamond:
My follow-up question is why was the first thing you said spare ribs?

Deb Perelman:
Because my first thought is, what is something she's probably not made it home? And I'm like, "Wouldn't it be fun to do spare ribs and fried rice?" And something-

Kerry Diamond:
But you abandoned that idea.

Deb Perelman:
... that I abandoned and I was like, "But what am I actually making for dinner?" Because what you're making is what you want to make, I think. Unless you're just fully making it for somebody else and you're holding your nose while you're doing it. I think the reality is maybe I would just make her a basic little, feel like we're not getting enough vegetables on Friday night, dinner.

Kerry Diamond:
All right. I love that. Because I have to say, when you said spareribs, I was like, "Okay. Wild card."

Deb Perelman:
Wild card. I know. I feel like it would be fun to do both.

Kerry Diamond:
What would you two talk about?

Deb Perelman:
Oh my goodness. I would have so many questions about living in France. I would love to hear about the publishing industry. I would love to hear how she wrote recipes. How did she distill these things? What were the things she would never put in a recipe? What were the things that she wished she had... If there were any recipes she wish she had written differently. If there were things she wished she had tried. I would just love to hear about how she felt at the end, having distilled all of these big ideas into several hundred recipes, many hundred recipes. Did she feel good about it?

Kerry Diamond:
I think we would all love to eavesdrop on that conversation.

Deb Perelman:
Right? I would definitely record it. We'll bug into the table.

Kerry Diamond:
Deb, it's so good to see you. I remain smitten with you as always.

Deb Perelman:
Thank you for having me here. It's so fun to chat.

Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. If you are a longtime listener or maybe a new one, I'd love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe via Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Special thanks to Alice Anderson and the team at Acadia Recording Company in Portland, Maine. Our producer is Catherine Baker. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.