Deborah VanTrece:
Somewhere down the road, all of this was going to make sense, and you're going to figure out how to put it together and make it make sense.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, Bombesquad. Welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe, the show that's all about women and food. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Brooklyn, New York. Today's guest is Chef Deborah VanTrece, the creative director of Twisted Soul Cookhouse & Pours, her restaurant in Atlanta, Georgia. Deborah is also author of the Twisted Soul Cookbook: Modern Soul Food with Global Flavors. It's her debut book. And it's all about Deborah's very personal take on Southern cuisine, inspired by the many hats she's worn in life. Those of flight attendant, world traveler, mom, culinary school student, entrepreneur, and of course, chef. If you are a regular listener of Radio Cherry Bombe, you know Deborah's been on the show a few times, and I am thrilled to welcome her back.
Kerry Diamond:
First, a little housekeeping. We would love for you to consider joining Cherry Bombe's membership program. You can become an official member of the Bombesquad for $40 a year and get special perks like inclusion on our members directory on cherrybombe.com and access to invitation only events.
Kerry Diamond:
During our recent Julia Jubilee Conference, we hosted a members only event with the producer and the production director of Julie & Julia. Everybody loves that movie. And that was a great event. For more details and how to join, visit cherrybombe.com.
Kerry Diamond:
Before we get to Deborah, let's hear a word from our sponsor, Talea Beer Co.
Kerry Diamond:
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Kerry Diamond:
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Kerry Diamond:
Now, here's my conversation with Chef Deborah VanTrece.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what the state of affairs is today.
Deborah VanTrece:
I don't know. Especially here in Georgia, because it's things are changing. Like the weather here constantly, and our focus just, it goes from one thing to another. So I'm just taking each day one at a time and one at a time. And just knowing I have to continue to be a flexible and just roll with the punches.
Kerry Diamond:
But you're still standing, even though you're sitting right now, you're still standing.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes. We're still standing. We are doing well. We have not only survived, but we have thrived during this situation, learned some things about ourselves and our business. Now we're looking for a bigger space, so it's not a bad problem right now.
Kerry Diamond:
Now were you poised to handle what happened? Because not only did you have Twisted Soul Cookhouse & Pours, but you also had a catering business.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So you understood having to move food around in different ways. Tell us about the past year. Like when it was clear that restaurants were going to have to shut down for a little while, how did you react?
Deborah VanTrece:
The first reaction was, "Oh. Shit." Then it really became, "How do we help?" That was kind of the mantra that we went by. It's what can we do to help? We had a little money. So we thought, let's take the little money we have, pay the employees what we can, keep them going as long as we can, and give food away. It's here. I don't want it to go bad. So we gave a lot of food away and then we came up with a pay what you can concept for a while. We did pre-packaged meals. We've had food industry workers. We fed frontline workers. We fed senior citizens.
Deborah VanTrece:
Luckily, a few grants came in that at least gave us a little bit of hope because at that point, day by day, we just didn't know what we were going to do, how long we were going to survive. We couldn't fret about it, because we were all in the same situation, not just all over the country, but all over the world. So just kept hoping. Something's got to happen or the whole industry would be wiped out.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you pivot the business? Once you had taken care of everybody, to the extent that you were able to, how did you pivot the business and put those pieces back together again?
Deborah VanTrece:
The first thing we did, actually, we completely... we changed concepts for a while 100%. I didn't feel initially that our food, our product was really meant for take out. That was not really-
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of very good chefs felt the same way.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. It never had been a big part of our business model. So trying to force it seemed unrealistic. So we totally changed the concept for a while. Did a pop-up that was more takeout-friendly. Luckily, it was a concept that we had on the back burner that we were hoping down the road, "Let's open up this thing one day." So we had a business plan for it and everything. So it was great to just go right into that. One day, we were Twisted Soul. The next day we were a different kind of chick, and we were slinging chicken with farm-to-table vegetables. We did really well. We started picking up a lot of traction with that.
Deborah VanTrece:
And then the riots started happening here after Armand and George Floyd. It put us in a whole different space. And then we decided, we started looking at ourselves from their perspective of community, even deeper, realizing that we're here in Atlanta where the civil rights movement basically started. It was birthed in Atlanta.
Deborah VanTrece:
And the restaurants, at the time, the Black-owned restaurants were a big, big part of that movement. And it was a place for community, a place for strategizing. And we decided that we had a following. We have a diverse clientele and we thought opening the doors would be a good place to start the healing process.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the restaurant. What's special and unique about Twisted Soul?
Deborah VanTrece:
The people. The people who work here, they're pretty special. One of the big things that we push for is to create a safe, diverse space for everyone across the board. I don't think we see enough of that in our industry. Our restaurants seem to sometimes be a little segregated.
Kerry Diamond:
A little, I think you'd be fair to say a lot.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. Yeah. And that was just not what we wanted. We know we do a style of food that is considered African-American. We have a huge African-American fan base, but we've expounded on what people's thoughts are when they hear soul food restaurant by experimenting with global food, a little bit more global ingredients, the craft of cocktails, sourcing our food, making sure that we're doing right by our farmers here using as many of the local ingredients as we possibly can when they're in season, and then being just a welcoming space in terms of not just the employees and the staff, but also the guests that come in. We make sure everybody feels safe here. It's a good place.
Deborah VanTrece:
Through our staff, we've had the rainbow coalition, for sure. I've had a little bit of everybody who has worked here and I'm very proud of that and been comfortable working here. All types of people who actually have come in and worked here and enjoy being in this space and have been very complimentary and telling us that there's something here that's a little bit different than the experiences that they've had elsewhere.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, so much of this is reflective of you and your very interesting life and life story. And I don't know what it is about you, Deborah, but people meet you and they... You just give off such amazing vibes that people can't help but feel like a friend of yours immediately.
Deborah VanTrece:
Well, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You do. You just radiate good vibes, and friendship and hospitality. I would love to talk about your cuisine because, like I said, you've really got your own kind of cuisine going on at Twisted Soul. I know people call it soul food, you've referred to it as soul food, but it really is this international take on soul food.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And I'm going to let you explain what that means and how that came to be.
Deborah VanTrece:
Well, I tell people it's the story of my life. It is inclusive of what I grew up eating. It is inclusive of working as a flight attendant and my travels. Inclusive as being a wife of an international basketball player. Inclusive of culinary school. Now, it's a little bit of all of that. And it is my feeling of connection and traveling from country to country and space to space. The commonality of the food space between cultures was something that was just of interest to me. It became my thing. And I thought it was a good place to begin positive conversations with.
Deborah VanTrece:
Everyone loves to tell you about themselves, for the most part. And when they tell you stories of their food memories, and grandma cooking, and mom did this, and my dad used to grill, those are stories I listen to and I listen to intently because I want to know what that food, how it made you feel. And I want to go back into my kitchen and see, can I do that with this recipe? Can I make people feel that way? Even the person who was describing it to me, if you can describe it to me and I can give it to you, and you tell me, "Yeah, that reminds me of..." then I've done what I'm supposed to do.
Kerry Diamond:
And the twisted part of Twisted Soul is that because you put your own spin on it?
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. That's because I'm just twisting up things left and right. And yeah, I'm a little twisted in the mind, I hear, to be able to do it. People ask me, "Well, how do you do it?" And I can't really tell them. I think I've learned so much. It's just a lot of food knowledge that's there that I paid attention to, not even realizing that somewhere down the road, all of this was going to like make sense. And you're going to figure out how to put it together and make it make sense. But that's what I've been able to do, is just make all of those tastes and all of those stories make sense.
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't realize you went to culinary school after you'd been a flight attendant. There was a strike that led you to finally leave and pursue a culinary career. I thought it was very interesting, and you write about this in the cookbook, how truly disrespected soul food was at culinary school.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes, definitely. When we got to the regional cooking class, we talked about all the regions of the United States. And we dabbed on international cuisine, Italian and, yeah, of course, French, Mexican, Asian. And then there was, oh, yeah, soul food, and literally, the teacher pretty much turned it over to me and asked me the questions, told me to talk to the class.
Kerry Diamond:
And you touch in the cookbook on the difference between soul food and Southern cuisine. Can you talk about that a bit?
Deborah VanTrece:
Soul food is Southern cuisine, okay? It's just people, to me, find it more palatable if they call it Southern. If you call it soul, I don't know if it's the connotation that it comes from African-Americans so it can't be good. And so the preference is to refer to it as Southern. But if we do our history, we know that in the South, the people cooking the food were the slaves. And the slaves were using their techniques a lot and discovering new ingredients, of course. But also, there were things that were taking seeds, things that were taken from Africa and brought also and planted here. So there were things that were familiar with them that they knew how to cook, they knew what to do with it. And arguably I think that the base of true American cooking kind of comes out of the soul food that was being produced from slaves.
Deborah VanTrece:
The term soul food, it kind of got coined during the civil rights movement when the leaders were pushing for pride in the Black communities. There was Black power, Black pride, soul food, soul this, soul that. Southern food, to me, it's really, really close to being the same, other than radishes with butter and bread, because that's something I've never understood. I will put that on the Southern, that's Southern food.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so funny.
Deborah VanTrece:
But otherwise, when you get into the legumes and the sweet potatoes, that cooking, a lot of that are recipes that have been inspired by African-Americans and just kind of handed down even to the families that they were cooking for.
Kerry Diamond:
You have so many great recipes in this. I started writing down all the ones that I just loved, and I had a list of basically all the recipes. Just the names of them, you're going to get so hungry when you flip through this cookbook. Like meatloaf wellington with sorghum mustard, deviled egg poboys, red bean risotto with tasso and andouille red-eye gravy, Cajun sweet potato salad. And this one, crawfish gravy with scallion, goat cheese, and black pepper biscuits. That killed me.
Deborah VanTrece:
That's a good one, too. I just made those.
Kerry Diamond:
And we didn't even get up to the dessert. I mean, the desserts are unbelievable. So you came out with your very first cookbook in March, right? Did it come out in March?
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, and congratulations. I know you've been working on this for a while. How was it received?
Deborah VanTrece:
It's been very well received. Better than what I could even imagine. You know, it was... or is my first cookbook. I still pinch myself. And then attending all things Cherry Bombe. It's like, okay. And looking at the cookbook authors, just kind of being enamored with them to know, "Okay, girl, you're a cookbook author too." It's amazing. It's a good feeling. It's a good feeling. But, yes, the reception has been great. I was a little bit worried, and I still worry about the fact that we've released a cookbook in the midst of a pandemic.
Kerry Diamond:
I know it's almost unfair.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. And it does sometimes, I feel like, god, you're getting cheated of the whole experience of the book tour. But I've had some amazing press behind it. And we've gotten attention from everybody under the sun, and it's been... I'm so grateful and so thankful for it. So, I'm going to continue to go on. And as things are opening up, I'm thinking, maybe I can fit in a couple of book tour places, and actually go and meet some people.
Kerry Diamond:
This book is going to have a life of years.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Going to be around for a while. I mean, first off, you can't do a new cookbook in a short period of time. They take forever to work on.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes, they do.
Kerry Diamond:
But, yeah. I think this book's got a lot of life in it. And I bet people would love to see you in person. I mean, for me, that was the biggest bummer. You know, I've been a fan of yours for a while. And I was like, "Oh, Deborah got so cheated having this book out in the middle of a pandemic," because you would have had a killer book tour.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah, I would have.
Kerry Diamond:
You're a people person. You would have collabed with everybody around the country. I don't know, I think there's still an opportunity to do that.
Kerry Diamond:
Now, your career has been on a real trajectory for the past few years. Every time I saw you, like more cool things were happening and coming your way, and your national profile was growing. And then the pandemic hits.
Deborah VanTrece:
What has helped is me just being myself and staying true to who I am. I started this like a long time ago, but when I started, Kerry, I'd never worked in a restaurant. I had no professional experience. And I didn't know what to expect. So my expectations on how this should go are just still kind of like, okay, well we'll just see what happens, you know? And I know, none of this has been planned. It's just kind of like, do, do, do, do. "Oh, you should do a cookbook." "Yeah, you're right, I should. Okay." I felt myself being in a position where I felt more blessed than a lot of people.
Deborah VanTrece:
And I did start at the bottom because I didn't know what I was doing. So I've gone through the process, and it's taken a while to get up to where I'm at. But I've not forgotten what I went through to get there. And because of that, I can give you sound advice. I can be very candid with people when they're saying, "Okay, I was a caterer and I lost everything." I'm like, "I don't have any clients anymore. It's a pandemic. What am I supposed to do?" My position has shifted, so I stepped back through this as the executive chef. I promoted another gentleman who I felt needed that opportunity and deserve that opportunity. Was I sick of being the chef? No. But I need to share that space with someone else. I need to do that. And I'm in a position now where I can, so it was the good time to do it.
Deborah VanTrece:
And then to work on these advisory councils, I started being contacted by all types of companies. And being able to be a part of talking about grants and how this money can be spent best in underserved communities. All of that has been very fulfilling for me. It's kind of the peel that I didn't know I needed. And now I've taken that and I'm on a whole another trajectory, it seems.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. You mentioned that someone else is the executive chef right now. You gave yourself the title creative director, which isn't a title we hear a lot of in the restaurant industry.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What does that mean, exactly?
Deborah VanTrece:
For me, it is having the ability to still direct where we're going to go with the restaurant, with the menu. I kind of sit back and I'm more of an adviser. I've got my daughter managing the front of the house. I have-
Kerry Diamond:
Kursten, right?
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes, Kursten. And then I have the executive chef. And they're young. And a lot of the people who I work with, they've not had these opportunities and they don't come from generations of entrepreneurs. So this is new for them. So just being more of a motivator and a director. If I see them going the wrong way, telling them, bringing them back in, okay? That's not good. And why things will work and why they won't work.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it. And I love that you picked that title because you are fashionable. You've got those fabulous glasses that are like your signature glasses. And you hear that term creative director a lot in fashion. And I was like, it's so interesting that Deborah chose that title for her, for what she does. All right. Tell me about those glasses. Whose glasses are they?
Deborah VanTrece:
Today, glasses are Tom Ford.
Kerry Diamond:
I knew they were Tom Fords. I could have guessed it. Because it's so funny, when we were talking about the creative director thing, I was like Tom Ford is one of those people you think of when you think of like creative director, where they have this vision that goes beyond a menu or pamphlet products or whatever it is.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's dive into a few of these recipes in the cookbook. Pick like two or three that you think are very quintessential Deborah and Twisted Soul signatures.
Deborah VanTrece:
One that is probably getting overlooked that is definitely Deborah is the cocoa-crusted lamb. I won awards off of that. And we have a big festival, it actually, Taste of Atlanta here. And I did this lamb on a big green egg, and the line wrapped around the whole festival because the word got out that this was the taste that you needed to taste. And when we looked up, I couldn't see the back of the line, where people would use their little tickets and then they would get back in the line again and eat while they were in the line because they wanted to come back around.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. And it's like the secret recipe that I've won all these awards with, and there it is for people to try. So that's one of my favorites and it's definitely-
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us the ingredients. What goes into making that?
Deborah VanTrece:
It really is more of the rub and the cocoa. So it's basically like a barbecue seasoning that I'm making from scratch. Garlic powder, onion powder, smoked paprika. But the addition of the cocoa adds an element of a char, actually. So when it's cooking on a grill, because this one gives you like some little grill instructions, it's the char and then the fat in the lamb. Because the fat actually drips back down onto your charcoal which gives you smoke that like actually seasons your lamb a little bit more. And I think we serve it with a dark cherry, like dark cherry gravy or something which is-
Kerry Diamond:
You snuck that recipe in the back of the cookbook. And I spotted it just today and I was like, dark cherry gravy on page 179.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You just like slipped that in there.
Deborah VanTrece:
It's just a slip in there, and it's a super, super good gravy. It's like, for me in my head, it was like a cross between barbecue sauce and gravy. And like we put it together and played with it just a little bit, what would you get? And it's really good what you get there. It's really, really good.
Deborah VanTrece:
I think a fun one is the duck schnitzel with the sweet potato waffle. I think that one is something, everyone should try that as a little brunch dish. It's super easy to make. Everyone has told me that the seasoning on the duck, that it was absolutely one of the best duck entrees they've ever tasted and they were so proud of themselves.
Deborah VanTrece:
And the one that's getting the huge buzz, which is kind of funny to me, but it is, is the bacon and praline mac and cheese.
Kerry Diamond:
Bacon and praline-
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. Bacon and... So it's a mac and cheese. It's got bacon in it. And then I covered it with like a praline crust. So it's kind of crusty on top, and so you get the sweet and the salty from the bacon. It's really, like, it's really good. It's really good.
Kerry Diamond:
Aside from the bacon praline which is unique, what goes into this mac and cheese?
Deborah VanTrece:
It's a bechamel, like some cream, milk, butter, flour, making a roux. I do live by American cheese for mac and cheese, I'm sorry. I know people don't want to hear that, but it's the thing. And then it's got some sharp cheddar. I play with my cheeses all the time. But the clincher is the bacon, and the pecan, and the brown sugar and that coating on top. And when you bake it and, it's the cheese is bubbling. And then you go through and the crust is kind of crunchy and it comes through when you... you can hear it when you put the spoon through it. And it's really, really delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my God. I want that for my birthday even though my birthday's passed.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one.
Kerry Diamond:
You also have cream cheese in this. So you have cheddar-
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes. And cream cheese. Mm-hmm. Give it that little creamy texture. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Any secrets for folks who want to try to make this at home?
Deborah VanTrece:
No. Everyone, I've like talked to people because that seems to be one of the go-to recipes that people are loving, and all I've heard is that it's delicious. So I think if you just follow the recipe, you'll be okay.
Deborah VanTrece:
And I think my favorite is the paella. The paella macaroni I think is like... That is the dish that for me, it's something I had in Spain at someone's home that I happened to drop by. And instead of making the paella with rice, they made it with macaroni noodles and it's something I've never forgotten.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it. I love it. I mean, all of this illustrates, Deborah, I think, how fearless you are when it comes to flavor. And you said something really interesting in the beginning of the book that... These weren't your exact words. But, the cuisines really can't get stuck in amber and frozen in time, that they constantly have to be evolving to move these cuisines forward. Why do you think that?
Deborah VanTrece:
Yes. I think it's important. To me, there's no chef, at least no present-day chef that should ever think that their recipe cannot be improved upon or should not be approved upon. It should. Every day, there's some new ingredient that I'm finding out about. There's a world of spices. And with each culture, when you taste their food, you generally taste something that's unfamiliar to you. And it is imperative that we start cross-utilizing our knowledge and our ingredients to create even more dishes and better dishes. We don't want to stay stuck in the same thing over and over again. And with people and their individuality, it's, to me, food is going to constantly move. Even farmers that are coming up with new things to do, and if I cross-pollinate this, I can get that, and things that we didn't even know we could eat, we're learning, "Okay, you can eat this." So if we can eat it, how do we prepare it? After one person prepares it, of course, everybody else wants to try another version of it.
Deborah VanTrece:
So as we progress with food, I think it just makes that world more and more exciting for all of us.
Kerry Diamond:
What's next for you, Deborah?
Deborah VanTrece:
What is next for me? Vacation, one day. In the meantime, I am really, really focused on growing the business. I really am kind of stuck on a bigger location. We've outgrown the location that we're in. And with the catering, and hopefully that will swing back around, because it's still not anywhere close to where it was.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought you were going to spend a little bit more time with planning that vacation.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. That vacation, it's going to come. It's going to come. Yeah. But even when I talk about vacations, I'm looking for the next food spot to go enjoy.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. All right. We're going to do a little speed round with you and then we will let you go, because I know you are a busy human. Okay. Where do we even start? What is the oldest thing in your fridge?
Deborah VanTrece:
Okay. Oldest thing. It's going to be a condiment of some sort.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you using your own condiment? Everybody is doing their own condiments now.
Deborah VanTrece:
I do sometimes. I do sometimes. There's some.
Kerry Diamond:
I meant some that the rest of us can buy.
Deborah VanTrece:
There are some brands that are absolutely amazing. So, yeah. But I think probably the oldest thing, I've got some molasses butter that I made that's been in there for a while. I keep thinking, you know, don't throw it away. You'll do something with it. You're going to add it to something. And it's like in the back. I can see it in my head. It's in the back, in the corner. I keep forgetting it's there, but it's been there for a while.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sure it still tastes good. All right. What is your most-used kitchen implement?
Deborah VanTrece:
A cast iron skillet.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your most treasured cookbook?
Deborah VanTrece:
Princess Pamela's Soul Food Cookbook.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. I knew you were going to say that.
Deborah VanTrece:
Yeah. And it's the paperback version, the raggedy, not the new one. I've got the originals. I got a couple of them that are in baggies. They're so old.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you love about that book?
Deborah VanTrece:
When I first made the decision to do soul food, someone gave it to me. They found it because they thought, "That's peculiar. She wants to open a soul food restaurant." Okay. And they knew I wanted to take traditional recipes and do things with them. And it is as traditional as you get with soul food.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us a song that makes you smile.
Deborah VanTrece:
Oh my God. Cardi B, if it's up and it's up then it's up then it's stuck.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you a music in the kitchen person or a silence in the kitchen?
Deborah VanTrece:
No, I like music in the kitchen. I don't need it all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your kitchen footwear of choice?
Deborah VanTrece:
Well, I usually have a couple of things. So I usually have something that I actually work in. Alegria has these bright-colored Mary Janes. So I got a couple of new pairs of those. One has like little flowers, pastel flowers, all over it. But then I like a little designer sneaker or something, just in case I have to go out on the floor. It's like, people don't know sometimes I'm completely dressed just to go out on the floor. It's like apron off. Okay. Chef jacket, looking good. Does it match the shoes? All right. That's it. But the shoe game is pretty important to me.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your last pantry purchase?
Deborah VanTrece:
Panko breadcrumbs.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you do with them?
Deborah VanTrece:
I was actually testing out a recipe for a potato croquette for Campbell soup, actually. I'm going to do something with them. And I wanted something that, again, went across cultures all over the world, and the croquette in some version you can find in just about every culture so...
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Last one. So we can kind of combine this with the vacation that you need to take. When everybody is free to travel, where is the first place you would like to go?
Deborah VanTrece:
France. Yeah. France. I want to go spend some time. Right a year before the pandemic, I got to take an amazing tour of France with a liquor company. Just, I was the only chef amongst a bunch of bar people, but it was just absolutely incredible. And so I'd like to try to duplicate a little bit of that again.
Kerry Diamond:
Deborah, that's it. I know we got to let you go, but thank you so much for your time.
Deborah VanTrece:
Thank you so much, Kerry. It's good to see your face.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Deborah VanTrece. It's always a blast talking to Chef Deborah. Her debut book, The Twisted Soul Cookbook is out now, and you don't want to miss it. Also, if you are in the Atlanta area, go visit Twisted Soul and tell them Cherry Bombe sent you. Thanks to today's sponsor, Talea Beer Co. I love their beer a lot. Maybe I'll even see you at the taproom this summer. Radio Cherry Bombe is produced by Cherry Bombe media. This episode was engineered and edited by Jenna Sadhu. Thanks for listening everybody. You're the bombe.
Harry from When Harry Met Sally:
I'll have what she's having.