Dishing on Julia - Episode 3
Julia Child’s Recipe For Success
Hunter Fox:
Whoa, whoa! Synaptic misfire, almost forgot the most important thing. Where are we with The French Chef?
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so glad you asked. We will get to that in just a minute. But first, I'd like to welcome you to Dishing On Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, the HBO Max original series inspired by the life of Julia Child.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Each week, I'll recap a new episode of Julia and chat with special guests about the making of the show and the cultural impact of our culinary icon.
On today's show, we'll dig into episode three of our series, the Boeuf Bourguignon episode. Three is clearly the magic number today, because we also have three great guests. We'll be talking to director Melanie Mayron and writer Eboni Booth about how Julia Child capitalized on an emerging medium to become the very first celebrity chef. Then it's cult cookbook author and beloved baker, Dorie Greenspan, who worked with Julia in the 90s, and who worked at the Food Network in its infancy.
But first, let's recap what Julia and her pals cooked up this week. Poor Russ Morash, he's still trying to kill Julia's TV show. But his boss, WGBH president Hunter Fox, played by Robert Joy, will have none of it. Hunter's wife made Julia's coq au vin and he loved it.
Hunter Fox:
I slept like a baby afterwards.
Rodney:
There's wine in the sauce, sir.
Hunter Fox:
Now, that's true, Rodney. But either way, I'm compelled. So, off we go.
Kerry Diamond:
We meet a new character this week, Julia's father, John McWilliams, Jr., AKA Pop, AKA Big John, played by James Cromwell. A cranky conservative businessman visiting from California, he's dismissive of Julia's TV dreams and just plain mean to his son-in-law.
John McWilliams Jr:
Paul, I know you're keeping busy, but would it be a violation of your early retirement and your delicate hands to attend to the needs of your house?
Kerry Diamond:
Yikes, Pop. To add insult to, well, insult, Pop puts ice in his red wine. It's more than Paul can bear.
Paul Child:
Julia, I wasted a 55 Bordeaux on a man with no taste or curiosity. Let's just go to bed.
Kerry Diamond:
The next day, Julia is back at WGBH. Russ tells her the show is just too expensive, so they can't continue. Julia drops a little bombshell of her own.
Julia Child:
If money is our only concern, I won't let it stand in our way.
Kerry Diamond:
She offers to bankroll the whole series. Now, we should note here that Julia's mother was an heir to a paper fortune and cantankerous Pop was a successful businessman. So Julia did have money, but she wasn't that rich. Paul's extravagance at dinner that evening sets her off.
Julia Child:
What bothers me is that Paul went full high gussy and ordered a $100 bottle of champagne.
Avis DeVoto:
We're celebrating.
Julia Child:
And caviar, does he think we're the damn Vanderbilts?
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe over at the Gilded Age that would fly, but not here. Julia decides to teach a cooking class in her kitchen to raise some funds. Pop and Paul don't understand why she's doing this with so much already on her plate, but then again, they don't know Julia needs some cash. Russ, meanwhile, is checking on his other show, I've Been Reading with professor Albert Duhamel, when his boss Hunter decides to do a switcheroo. Ross gets Julia full-time, Alice is moved to Albert's show. No one is happy. Least of all, Albert.
Albert Duhamel:
I will not be upstaged by a quiche.
Kerry Diamond:
Suck it up, says Hunter.
Hunter Fox:
My circus, my clowns. Thanks for being accommodating folks. Can't wait to see what we come up with.
Kerry Diamond:
Back at Alice's apartment, her mom Virginia, played by Adriane Lenox, isn't that interested in her daughter's professional trajectory. Personal trajectory? Yes.
Virginia Naman:
Have you been dating?
Alice Naman:
No, mom. I've been reading.
Kerry Diamond:
Ditto Russ's wife. He is dying to quit. She reveals she's pregnant and asks him to hang in there. The set of The French Chef gets built and our plucky heroine Julia figures out a way to finance the series that does not involve cooking classes. She hits Pop up for the money. And with that, the filming of Julia's first official episode gets underway.
Russ Morash:
All right, crazy kids. Let's give this a try.
Kerry Diamond:
I'd like to introduce our first guests, Melanie Mayron who directed this episode as well as an upcoming one, and Eboni Booth, who wrote the episode. Melanie and Eboni, welcome to Dishing On Julia.
Melanie Mayron:
Thank you.
Eboni Booth:
Hi Kerry.
Melanie Mayron:
We're so happy to be here.
Eboni Booth:
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
I am so happy to meet you both. We are going to jump right in with some questions. I have so many questions for you. Melanie, I'd love to know, did you know much about Julia Child, before working on this project?
Melanie Mayron:
Well I heard her name my whole life, and I remember seeing the show when I was young. When I did get the job, I read the book that she wrote, My Life in France, and that was all about her living and working there with her husband Paul, eating French food and getting interested in it and learning how to cook it. So, the book was amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
Eboni, we're going to jump over to you. I'd love to know about your Julia story. What did you know about Julia previously?
Eboni Booth:
I knew who she was. I'd never seen an episode of The French Chef all the way through. And again, I think my knowledge of her was sort of limited to what I learned watching Julia and Julia. I knew she had written cookbook, but I didn't have any sense of her as a person until I sort of saw that movie and saw a Meryl Streep's depiction of her.
Kerry Diamond:
The three of us did not grow up watching Julia Child on television. And I still haven't asked my mother why we didn't watch Julia Child, but we watched everything else on PBS. So I guess the three of us will have to get to the bottom of why we didn't grow up watching Julia Child. Eboni, as a writer, how did you go about learning about Julia?
Eboni Booth:
I read the book Melanie mentioned earlier, her memoir about her time in France. I read a couple of biographies written about her. And then I actually, I watched a lot of episodes of The French chef, obviously, but I also watched and read a lot of interviews with her. It was during I think the first winter of COVID, and sort of reading about her life and her experiences wound up being the best balm during those sort of like cold pre-vaccine months.
Kerry Diamond:
I would imagine there's a point where you don't want to learn too much though.
Eboni Booth:
You know, I've heard a lot of writers say that and I have so much respect for it and their imaginations. I think it might be my insecurity or me just sort of clinging to a Linus blanket. I just want all the information I could find and then find a way to interpret it on my own. But I never reached a point where I said, oh, okay I know enough. I still feel like, oh, I should have read that other book. I don't know why. I think there's something about being able to find the freedom within the boundaries of what happened allegedly, that there's something about that that feels sort of right for me when approaching real life stuff. But I definitely understand the impulse to step back after a certain point and let your own narrative take over.
Kerry Diamond:
Melanie, for Julia, the secret ingredient turned out not to be her cookbooks, but television. I'm curious, based on what you learned about her, how do you think she was able to be so prescient? Was it luck? Good timing? Bold vision?
Melanie Mayron:
It's just who she was. I mean, any actor, anybody, it's your personality that will sell anything. Any actor, depending on who they are, who their soul is, what their personality is. They're going to put that into the role. Julia was such a brilliant communicator and so fun. She was so quick-witted and quirky. And she was a brilliant cook, she explained the minutia of every recipe. That's what she did in Mastering the Art of French Cooking. It was just all her and that's, how do you explain that? That's just who she was, that's who she was born to be.
Kerry Diamond:
And Melanie, it's interesting that she recognized the power of television. You also, in a sense, identified the power of television. What made you gravitate toward TV?
Melanie Mayron:
There is tremendous power and responsibility with television. On Thirty Something we'd go to a sound stage every day and do your work. And it was just the crew. And then, I remember that first season we found out we were like the show and People's Choice Awards. And so many people were watching us. Except my experience was just driving onto a lot, parking in my space, going into a stage, shooting the show and going home. It's wild when you start getting recognized. And you know that the little project you're working on in this kind of major warehouse is something that's being seen so everywhere.
Eboni Booth:
Because so many people work hard and so many people have exceptional personalities who don't become household names. I mean, I think that some of it is timing and I think a lot of it is luck. And I think she seemed to be a very, very hard worker and had a lot of tenacity. And there was so much perseverance in her pursuit well before she became a television star. But I think every once in a while the stars sort of align, and that, I think culturally, maybe we were kind of hungry for something about her that felt authentic, that she sort of felt unlike... She felt a little unguarded and unscripted in a way that a lot of other figures on television didn't, and certainly a lot of other female figures on television didn't.
And I think there was something about her that felt sort of grounded and real. And we were sort of wanting that maybe culturally at a time. And so success is such a tricky thing. I want to believe, just because of what I sort of learn about her before she became famous, that the work would've continued regardless in some way, and that she would've found a way to reach people regardless of the scale. That she loved cooking and she loved community. And that sort of felt like a real through line.
Kerry Diamond:
The show is so fascinating because we're watching the real start of food television, the evolution of public television and a new wave of feminism. Melanie, so much of Julia is subtle and intimate with these beautiful moments between characters. How do you as a director approach telling a story that's so sweeping, but personal?
Melanie Mayron:
Well, the sweeping-ness of it I think is just the outer, that's what the story is. But the real work, what Eboni wrote so brilliantly, is the human moments. Is just what you said, the real specificity of the moments. You know, Sarah Lancashire as Julia, her Julia is amazing and she can have so much going on. And David Hyde Pierce, the acting ensemble is really terrific and just top of their game. So, it's sort of... I think, as a director, I'm just dealing with each scene, what's to be accomplished in the scene, what the conflicts are in the scene, and what's the point of it. And just having them realize it as best they can. Right Eboni, wouldn't you say?
Eboni Booth:
I think so. I think so. And I think in the writer's room it was so much fun toggling between the two. To what you say Kerry, Daniel and Chris really wanted us to embrace the sort of food and the sort of larger story too, but also pay so much attention to those sort of interpersonal details. So I think for a lot of people, you might come for the pastry dough and stuff, and that stuff is so much fun to create and indulge, but it's just as lovely to sort of bolster it with figuring out what these people want and sort of where they are emotionally and socially in a given moment and finding a way to sort of bounce between the two worlds was like a really fun writing task and then watching Melanie and everyone else actualize on set was really great.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us a little bit more about the writer's room. Was this a virtual writer's room or did you all get to be together?
Eboni Booth:
No, it was a virtual writer's room. We started in February, 2021. Yeah, it was, gosh, I can't even remember how long we worked, but we worked for a few hours a day and we would sort of make our way through the different character tracks and the different aspects of the story that we wanted to hit. And it was always so fun to remind ourselves, or just to go back to, oh, the food, the food, right? Like where in the script can we sort of take the time and take up that page real estate to talk about the hamburger she's making or the dough she's rolling out?
Kerry Diamond:
Was this your first TV writer's room?
Eboni Booth:
Yes, it was. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And how was the experience?
Eboni Booth:
It was great. It was so great. The room itself was so supportive and I learned so much just about how television works and how the sausage gets made. But I think also having a subject like Julia Child and having the frame of this story was just a really great way to understand how narrative could work and how one way that storytelling can function. I just feel really grateful for that. And Daniel and Chris have such a wonderful, generous spirit, and there was so much openness in the room amongst all of the writers that it was just a really wonderful experience.
Kerry Diamond:
Because you are also a playwright and that is not a communal experience-
Eboni Booth:
It is not.
Kerry Diamond:
Writing a play.
Eboni Booth:
You know, my background is in acting so I do understand trying to meet someone else's vision or the real power of collaboration. But in terms of writing together, I didn't understand the power of that multi-brain union. And then as we were all sort of creating the story together and figuring out what the scripts could hold and would contain, I just see, oh, it's better. It's better when it's not just you, there are just things you don't think of. Everyone sort of has different skills and different areas of expertise. And so that balance was really wonderful to discover.
Kerry Diamond:
I always say at work, two brains better than one.
Eboni Booth:
Oh my goodness. Yes, yes, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Melanie, does a director have to do the same kind of research as a writer, or do you approach directing an episode in a completely different way? How do you prepare?
Melanie Mayron:
I got Eboni's script, but the directing preparation is going out and picking any locations, if there are more locations to shoot. Looking at the sets and basically trying to figure out in each scene.. They call it, it's like staging or blocking, like in a play. Where the actors would move. If they're sitting, if they're standing, if they get up and move here, what they're doing in the scene and sort of pre-working that all out, because one of the things with television schedules is you have to move quickly. You have nine days or 10 days to do a show, and you've got many scenes a day. So it's not like in the theater where you're going to rehearse for six weeks or eight weeks and the actor figures out, hey, I would go here on this line and maybe I would sit on this line.
You don't have any rehearsal. The actors come in, you tell them where you want them, when you want them to move and why. And then they run it and you tell the cameraman what shots you want or how you want it shot. And they go to hair and makeup. And now they're lighting and they're setting up the shot that you're going to do now. And then they come back and you do one rehearsal so that the camera people know what they're doing. The sound guy knows what he's doing with the boom mic. And then you're shooting.
The preparation for the director is really just getting your hands on the script and seeing what you actually have to put on its feet. But it all has to kind of pre worked out. And what gets hard is when you tell an actor what you've worked out in terms of what they're doing, because they may not want to do that. Or they might not want to sit here. They might want to stand. And then what that does is they might want to move here instead of when you wanted them to move. And that might affect some shots that you had and how you were going to shoot things. So you have to be quick on your feet to sort of change it. So I think one of the blessings about also being an actor and coming to it is I'm pretty good at, I kind of act out all the parts beforehand.
Kerry Diamond:
You do? Wait, tell us more about that.
Melanie Mayron:
Well, I mean, it's like when I read the script, I kind of picture like if was playing her, if I was playing him.. Right Eboni? I'm sure you did that as you were writing, too-
Eboni Booth:
Yeah, absolutely.
Melanie Mayron:
Because you're an actor. You know you kind of see it, so you kind of see, oh, you know what? I would get up at this point or I would move over here at that point. Or maybe I would sit down here. So my instincts are good.
Kerry Diamond:
At any point, did you try out a Julia Child accent?
Melanie Mayron:
No, not in a million years.
Kerry Diamond:
Don't worry. We won't make you do it today.
Melanie Mayron:
I won't go near that. I mean, I was so impressed with what Sarah did-
Eboni Booth:
Oh my goodness.
Melanie Mayron:
...what she came up with. And it was her own.
Eboni Booth:
It's so her own, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I was so curious how she would handle Julia's voice.
Eboni Booth:
I didn't know either. And I saw the pilot and I said, that's just so lived in. I mean that's a live person. Yeah, it was so much her own.
Kerry Diamond:
Eboni, tell us a little bit about the script for episode three. What did you work into that?
Eboni Booth:
It was just about sort of finding a way to have a lot of fun. And again, having the container was helpful, and then I could just sort of find the freedom in those boundaries. But I'm not a comedic writer. And I was like, oh no, we got to try to, how do you try to give this some life? But I think when you try to honor what people want and then find obstacles to put in their way, somehow or another we just all start smiling because we can just relate to those sort of pie in the face moments.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you find your inner comedian?
Melanie Mayron:
She did.
Eboni Booth:
It depends on who you ask, but I... The cast is so great so anything that was there, they were able to imbue with a lot of levity and bounce. But it was really fun. I feel like as a playwright sometimes I'm just so self serious and how do I make this point that will change the world? And in this case, it was just like, how can I find the moment between these people that feels original and poignant and sort of unique in a certain way.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you tell us a few moments you loved in this episode?
Eboni Booth:
Yeah. I loved Alice, the scene with Alice and her mom. That was really fun getting to... So that's actually kind of fun. When you write earlier in the season, you're sometimes writing characters for the first time and Virginia Naman was one of those characters. And I sort of loved that. I loved the cooking class scene so much. I loved the scene where Julia's sort of on the set, marking through rehearsal and just determined to sort of learn. And she and Russ are on the same side for the first time, and he introduces those little puppets and we just get a sense of the sort of united front that they might become moving forward. I loved watching David tape out the set and filming that was like one of our first days working. And I was laughing a lot. So many of those moments bring me a lot of joy.
Kerry Diamond:
Were those puppets a nod to Mr. Rogers?
Eboni Booth:
That's a good question. I don't remember that. I remember Emily, one of the writers in the room, mentioned having read about something like that happening, that she would sometimes get confused with the cameras and they needed a way to sort of differentiate for her. And I can't remember how far we took it, but I think that the sort of grain of the idea came from real life, that they had little costumes to help her out.
Kerry Diamond:
Melanie, how about you? What really stood out to you in episode three?
Melanie Mayron:
Well, the cooking class was gargantuan, to shoot that, because there were so many steps of the food process. What, we were talking about preparation before, what food were we going to make? What were the stages of it and how would she teach it? That all had to be out with our food stylist. And props, what would be placed where when, so that we could switch it up. And there were 11 people in the kitchen and it was pretty much like shooting in a kitchen with the two cameras.
So that was really challenging, but I was thrilled how it came out and with the music and the editing and the acting. That was really fun. I mean, the scenes that we're talking about, what Eboni mentioned, were all really fun. And how to shoot it in a fun way when Paul was taping out the floor and how the camera went right into his tush. There was just a lot of sweet, fun things.
Kerry Diamond:
But technically the cooking class was the toughest scene to shoot?
Eboni Booth:
Ooh, yeah.
Melanie Mayron:
Yeah. It was like a day and a half. When you watch a show and you see what they call inserts, like close on the flame on the stove, or close on an egg cracking, or three shrimps lined up, or whatever. Each one is a shot. And that shot takes time to light and you need to shoot it a few times. So it's like, if you do the math, the cooking class... And there were 11 people in there, so you'd cut to Alice, you'd cut the pole, walking around measuring things, you'd cut to John watching.
Everywhere you go you've got to cover everybody and shoot the different students. The housewives laughing at her and Julia instructing everything and close ups on her hands or whatever she's doing. So there was just a lot. And every step of it until they finally go in the dining room and everybody gets to have the finished lunch, you get to show it and all it's glory. Yeah. That was gigantic.
Eboni Booth:
It was also so fun working with Christine, the food stylist. I'd never done that-
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah Christine Tobin.
Eboni Booth:
Yeah. And she's amazing. I mean again, one of the best things about this being my first job at a wonderful job was just understanding all of the different elements that create something. And working with Christine, I mean, we started talking before we got to Boston, just about what we were sort of envisioning and seeing the way she and the women working with her just created the stages of Julia's- Yeah. Just the food it was so, it was really inspiring. It was just another way to approach narrative that I just hadn't considered that was just so fulfilling.
Melanie Mayron:
I've shot some TV shows when there's action sequences. What makes action, is the hand on the steering wheel turning it, the foot on the pedal. Like the wheels screeching. The food in the show was like action sequences. Like when she cooks the hamburger meat and the onions and everything she's putting. And I said to myself, okay, this is like, instead of having cars and cars flipping and stunt cars and people falling off of floor, instead, the action sequences are the food sequences. And I had to think of them the same way in terms of breaking down what all the shots were to give it that excitement and that energy.
Kerry Diamond:
Eboni had you thought of omelet making as you or high speed car crash?
Eboni Booth:
I hadn't. I hadn't it. And now I will always, always and forever.
Kerry Diamond:
Melanie, I love that. Everything I watch now with food I'm going to think about, okay, what is the equivalent action here? Falling down a flight of stairs, gun fight. You know, all those things. I have not asked either of you, if you cook. Melanie, do you cook?
Melanie Mayron:
Yeah. I have a few dishes. My daughter started getting into Blue Apron. So we get a couple meals and we're cooking at night now. And what's fun about that is then you go, oh, I see. Well, I could just throw this together and that together. And you can sort of go off on your own, which is good. But yeah, it's fun to cook. I mean I'm good at the dishes I make. Let's put it that way.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you attempt any Julia Child recipes before this?
Melanie Mayron:
Not yet.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you planning on it?
Melanie Mayron:
Maybe.
Kerry Diamond:
Eboni, how about you? Do you cook?
Eboni Booth:
I don't.
Kerry Diamond:
You don't either!
Eboni Booth:
I don't cook at all. My boyfriend is a very good cook. I do like to bake. And I worked in restaurants and bars for so long as a auditioning actor, so I love food and I sort of like the ceremony around food, but I am a little hopeless in the kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I have to ask you each, if Julia were coming over for dinner, what is one thing you would make? And Melanie, you can't make a Blue Apron thing for her. And who would you invite over for dinner? So, Melanie, what would you make?
Melanie Mayron:
I would have family and friends over that would understand, that if it was a calamitous result...
Kerry Diamond:
They wouldn't judge you too harshly.
Melanie Mayron:
That's right.
Kerry Diamond:
Well Julia, from what I understand was pretty chill. I mean, she loved a cocktail. She loved goldfish crackers.
Melanie Mayron:
That's true. That's true.
Kerry Diamond:
So Melanie, you could just make a cocktail and put out some goldfish crackers and...
Melanie Mayron:
I do a lot of wok stuff because I think you can't really go wrong with the wok. I'd chop up vegetables or tofu or chicken or filet or whatever. And she liked Asian food so maybe I would say, hey, here's something that's not yours. Here's something that's mine. What do you think?
Kerry Diamond:
Eboni, how about you?
Eboni Booth:
I think I would do...
Melanie Mayron:
She would take her out.
Eboni Booth:
No, I think I would do tuna salad sandwiches. I know she would like tuna and I like tuna. I feel like there aren't that many ways to go wrong with it. My tuna salad's not bad. Zach makes really good bread. And I have a chocolate chip cookie recipe that I like.
Kerry Diamond:
Zach being your...
Eboni Booth:
Zach is my fella. So we could do tuna on homemade bread, chocolate chip cookies, and maybe Manhattans. And I think I'd keep her all to ourselves, it'd just be us and our cat.
Melanie Mayron:
Ooh that sounds good.
Kerry Diamond:
I think Melanie wants to come over for that meal.
Eboni Booth:
Melanie you can come too.
Melanie Mayron:
I want to come for that one.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, thank you both so much for your time.
Eboni Booth:
Kerry, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You've created a beautiful thing and it's such a thrill getting to speak with both of you.
Eboni Booth:
Thank you.
Melanie Mayron:
Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
Now let's check in with the aforementioned Dorie Greenspan. Dorie is the author of 14 cookbooks, including her latest Baking with Dorie. And she has a newsletter XOXO Dorie. Back in 1991, Dorie first met Julia and got a job offer from the culinary great. Was it an offer she couldn't refuse? Let's find out. Dorie Greenspan, welcome to Dishing on Julia.
Dorie Greenspan:
So happy to be with you.
Kerry Diamond:
You have had such a history with Julia Child. I would love to know how you came into Julia's orbit.
Dorie Greenspan:
You know, it's so funny. I met Julia in 1991 when my first book came out. I thought, if you're a writer, you just stay at home and write. And I was invited to do a demo at Boston University to promote my book. I had never done a demo. I had never been in front of an audience. I was the kid who sat in the back of the classroom, wouldn't raise her hand. But I thought, okay, the book it's my baby, I've got to do this.
I was on the program with Jacques Pépin and Julia Child. I mean just saying it now, you can hear my voice is cracking. I was a wreck. I was just a wreck. And I was the last person. So I had to sit through everybody's fabulous demos and then do mine. And Julia came up at the end and she put her arm around me. And she said, "That was wonderful. We are all having dinner tonight and I'd like you to sit with me." And that was it. She literally took me under her wing.
That was also the night when she said to me, "Have you ever seen that Dan Aykroyd Saturday Night Live skit? You know, the one where he imitates me?" And I said, Julia, I must be the only per person in all of America who's never seen it. And she stood up. She just kind of, all tallness of her, stood up, put her arms on the table and proceeded to do the imitation. It was Julia imitating Dan Aykroyd imitating her. I loved her before, but really.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh, there is so much to unpack in that anecdote you just shared with us. Okay. First off, you had to do your first ever demo in front of the king and the queen of the demo.
Dorie Greenspan:
That was right, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Jacques and Julia. Okay. That must have been truly terrifying. So in time, you started to work with her. How did that come about?
Dorie Greenspan:
I went to work for the Food Network and I was new there. Food Network was new, I was new. And I was asked to write Baking with Julia to go with the PBS series. And I turned it down. I said, nope, I'm in showbiz now. I'm not going back to cookbookery, as Julia would say. And after about six months, I realized I missed writing so much. And I called and said, who's writing that book. And they said they hadn't found anyone. So that's how I got to work with Julia on the best project of my life.
Kerry Diamond:
How was Julia as a boss?
Dorie Greenspan:
You know, she wasn't my boss. I wanted her to be my boss, I begged her to be my boss. And she wasn't. She was very busy, very busy shooting the series. We did 26 episodes. And I was busy taking notes and getting the recipes and getting ready to write. And at the wrap party, I said, well, Julia, I'm going to go home and I'm going to write and I'll start sending you stuff, oh, maybe in about a week or so. And she said, "I don't want to see anything." Her words were, "Go home and write your book." And so I got to be Julia's collaborator and friend.
I so wanted her to be my boss. I so wanted her to. I mean, she was helpful of course, but I was really imagining that we would be outlining this together and sitting next to one another, not that we had all that much time to write the book, but you know writing together. But no. She said, "This is yours, go home." And I said but... And she said, "I know you'll do a good job." I'm going to cry. She said, "I know you'll do a good job." She had more faith in me than I did.
Kerry Diamond:
What had you done up until that point that made her trust you so much?
Dorie Greenspan:
From the little she saw and the contact that we had, she said to me, "You write recipes the way I do." And I was so frustrated I said, you mean long? And she said, "No, I mean, detailed and helpful."
Kerry Diamond:
You and Julia became such good friends you spoke on the phone every day.
Dorie Greenspan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about that.
Dorie Greenspan:
It's funny. It was just, it was the morning call. And so sometimes we would talk about lunch. Sometimes we would talk about the weather. She was the first person I would call when I would come back from Paris. So I would call her and she had two questions. They were always the same. She would say, "Is the foods still good?" And the other was so funny. It was, "Do they still sell cooked beets in the market?"
Kerry Diamond:
That is so funny. You two definitely shared a love of Paris.
Dorie Greenspan:
Absolutely. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
When did Paris get into your blood?
Dorie Greenspan:
Julia says that she thinks, not the exact quote, but she says something like, I must have been born French, but no one told me. And I, in fact, returned from Paris, went to my mother and said, it will take me a while to forgive you for having me in Brooklyn. I was meant to be born in Paris. I've never had that connection to another city. It was immediate and it continues all these years later.
Kerry Diamond:
A lot of us feel that way about Paris. But let's talk about Cambridge for a second. And I want to talk about this episode. Did you spend much time in the Cambridge kitchen?
Dorie Greenspan:
Every day for two months?
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. What was it like in that kitchen?
Dorie Greenspan:
When I first went to the kitchen, it wasn't a TV set. It was kind of heart-stopping because we all knew the peg board with the pans. And you'd come... The first day that I got there, I came up the back stairs and there was Julia at the top step. And that first day, Stephanie Hersh and another assistant had timers around their necks. And Julia had a timer around her neck. And they had notepads and they were timing hard boiled eggs to get exactly the right time. And they were like coaches in the gym. And Michael, my husband, says that the first time that he came to the kitchen and opened that back door and saw Julia at the steps, he walked up and she threw her arms around him. And he credits her with teaching him to give a really good hug.
She was a hug teacher. But that kitchen... You had the feeling that it could welcome anyone. You could be alone in that kitchen or alone with Julia or together with Julia and feel that it was cozy. You could be there with the entire crew, kind of elbow to elbow, and feel like, yes, this is exactly the way it's supposed to be. It was such a warm kitchen. It was a funny kitchen too, because it was a public kitchen. And so there were all of these little labels on things, coffee here, boil for six minutes or... I mean she had little labels everywhere telling you what to do. Oh, it was just, to be in that kitchen was really, it was really a treat to see all the rolling pins in the pastry kitchen, to see the pantry, to see her bookshelves. It was so lived in and so warm and welcoming.
Kerry Diamond:
Telling the story of a legend always presents particular challenges. I'd love to know. What did you think of Sarah Lancashire's portrayal? Were there any moments or mannerisms where you thought, oh my goodness, that was so Julia?
Dorie Greenspan:
I closed my eyes because I wanted to not see her, but see if I could hear Julia. And I did. And I heard the Julia, there's a big Julia. I heard a home Julia. I heard an everyday Julia. It really touched me. And there's a moment where she's in Paul's studio. She comes in and she says, I love this, she says, "May I borrow your brain for a moment?" And he's looking at the papers and she's standing behind him and you see her from the back and you see the way she puts her hand on her hip, behind her. That was so Julia.
There was the moment that just said that's Julia to me was right before she's about to film her episode, her very first episode of The French Chef. She says, "One moment." And walks out from behind the counter and thanks the crew. That was Julia. That was so Julia. Julia would go into a restaurant kitchen and shake everyone's hand from the executive chef to the dishwasher. Everyone got a smile. Everyone got a thank you.
And I don't know whether she did that or not the first time she was filming, but that was Julia. Julia had perfect comedic timing. And you had, in that just little minute, you had Julia, truly sincere Julia. And then you had Julia knowing... She was so great at this. Leaving with a funny line, "And they'll be leftovers." That was a perfect moment.
Kerry Diamond:
Was Julia aware that her influence on society went beyond teaching us how to be better home cooks?
Dorie Greenspan:
You have to believe she knew because she put herself behind causes and organizations that she really believed in. And she supported Planned Parenthood during a time when that was, it certainly went against her upbringing and her family. She was clear that that meant a lot to her. She was a supporter of the Democratic Party. But for a public figure, who's not involved in politics, to make their politics clear... So she must have known that she could have an influence and that she wanted to.
I saw it in small ways. So we were out for lunch once and a woman came up to her, as everybody came up to Julia, and said that she so admired Julia, she was so interested in cooking, she was a student at Radcliffe, and she was thinking of leaving school to become a chef. And Julia talked to her and said, "You have to be educated. You have to get your degree. You have to finish school. And it's doubly important for a woman to be educated in this field. And we're filming tomorrow. Do you want to come see what we're doing? Do you want to come see the kitchen?" So she must have known that in small ways and big, she could touch people.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's jump ahead to food television. I would love to talk to you about food TV, especially because you were involved with the Food Network in the very beginning. Tell us a little bit about that. What was the food network like in those early days?
Dorie Greenspan:
Oh, it was like a high school play. It was really... So I started at the Food Network before it launched. My job was to beg chefs to be on television.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you imagine?
Dorie Greenspan:
Can you imagine? And also, I had to buy a TV to work at... Yeah, I didn't have one.
Kerry Diamond:
Like Julia, in the first episode.
Dorie Greenspan:
Like Julia! That's right, that's right. We bought a TV so that I could go work on TV. Nobody really knew what they were doing. We were all learning as we went along. And it was fun .
Kerry Diamond:
When I was watching Julia, I was really struck by how she set the structure for all future food shows.
Dorie Greenspan:
Absolutely. Absolutely. She was so smart. And when you see her working... In the episode, when you see her working on the recipes and working on how it should be, she's like how I going to do a four hour dish in 28 minutes? And she showed all of us how to do that.
Kerry Diamond:
What would you say are the through lines, from Julia pioneering the industry to present day cooking shows?
Dorie Greenspan:
I think we've lost some of what was so important to Julia. Julia, and maybe it was because Julia had this magic, Julia could teach you to do something and entertain you at the same time. And teaching was really important to her. I just thought, the first meeting that we had about Baking with Julia, she said to me, "This is not for fluffies."
Kerry Diamond:
This is not for fluffies.
Dorie Greenspan:
This is not for fluffies.
Kerry Diamond:
What or who was a fluffy?
Dorie Greenspan:
A fluffy was someone who didn't take cooking seriously, who was just not going to learn and take what she or he had learned and use it. She wanted to teach people. And I remember a day early on in the Food Network where I said... There was somebody I wanted to have on a show. And somebody said to me, do you think everybody would like to have this person in their living room after... I said, but this person knows so much about food. And that was years ago. And I think we've moved really to entertainment. What Julia wanted to teach us is, we can get it from food TV, but I don't see that as the aim of many shows now.
Kerry Diamond:
It always seemed to me that Julia turned cooking into a spectator sport. Why do you think people at home love watching TV cooks as if it were tennis or basketball or fill in your sport of choice?
Dorie Greenspan:
I think it's because it's fun to see something we know how to do. Or, I mean even if we can't flambé the crêpes, it's something we know, something we've seen. And so it's a little bit of getting behind the scenes, seeing how it's really done. But it's also, you don't have to cook it, you don't have to shop for it, you know? So it's kind of relaxing to see somebody else do it. I think that many of us watch food television for the inspiration. It's aspirational, it's inspirational. It is instructive as we see. It has all the elements. Julia understood that if she wanted to teach people something, she had to keep them with her and that it had to be lively, and she didn't know how to be anything but lively, but I think once again, she set the tone and the structure.
Kerry Diamond:
Dorie, let's talk about where you're up to today. You are a major cookbook writer. Your 14th cookbook, Baking with Dorie, came out last fall. Congratulations.
Dorie Greenspan:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
On number 14. What is Baking with Dorie all about?
Dorie Greenspan:
So it started out as an all savory baking book and I kept... The book just kept getting sweeter and sweeter and sweeter. So it's a mix of sweet and savory baking recipes, all of them simple. I love this book because it takes a baker from morning to midnight. I hadn't had a chance to do breakfast baking in a long time. And I love that. And so there's a breakfast section. There are cakes, there are cookies, there are pies. There's the savory section. And I got a chance to, I didn't know I was going to do this until the end, I looked at all my recipes and I thought, oh, I've played favorites with some. So I had like mini collections of meringue, brioche, chocolate chip cookies. It's really, it's kind of how I bake today, what I'm doing in my kitchen today.
Kerry Diamond:
You also have a wonderful newsletter that I love reading, that people will forward to me from time to time, called xoxo Dorie. Not to be confused with XOXO, Gossip Girl.
Dorie Greenspan:
Not to be confused.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you decide to do a newsletter and how can folks subscribe?
Dorie Greenspan:
So subscription is doriegreenspan.bulletin.com. I hadn't been thinking about it, the idea was presented to me and I thought, oh, oh, the chance to kind of write anything I want. And I have been loving it. Yeah, it's twice a week. Which is, as somebody said to me, I now have a beat. And it's got lots of recipes. It's got stories. I recently wrote about Julia. When I'm in Paris I write from Paris and talk about places I've seen, food I've made. It's a chance for me to connect with readers about topics that interest me, that interest them, but that I don't often, before, didn't have the chance to write about.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you think she would make of newsletters and all the social media today? Would she have jumped right in?
Dorie Greenspan:
Julia was so interested in everyone else. I think the opportunity to hear from people would be delightful for her. You know she was a great correspondent. She sent letters and postcards all the time. She picked up the phone and called all the time. If she could be in touch with people the way we are now, I don't know, I think she would love it.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay Dorie, final question. If you could have one last dinner with Julia, what's one thing you would make and who's one person you would invite?
Dorie Greenspan:
Right before Julia left for Santa Barbara, Michael Joshua and I drove to Cambridge and took her out to lunch. And we had oysters. We had so many oysters. And Julia loved them. She loved them. And she would take the oyster and when it was finished, she would like slap the empty oyster shell down. I got such pleasure out of watching her enjoy those oysters. I would love to have oysters with Julia again.
Kerry Diamond:
And who would you bring along?
Dorie Greenspan:
I would bring along Avis DeVoto, whom I'd never met, but I read As Always, Julia, the book of letters between Julia and Avis, and wanted to meet her from that moment on. I was so sorry to finish that book, it was like losing the company of two such smart, caring friends. So I would love, I would love oysters and Julia and Avis.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, Dorie that is a great spot to end on. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your stories. It is always wonderful to see you Dorie.
Dorie Greenspan:
I love being with you. Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for this episode of Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, now streaming on HBO Max. Dishing on Julia is produced by Cherry Bombe Media. Thank you to the Cherry Bombe team, including executive producers Catherine Baker and Audrey Payne, special projects editor Donna Yen, associate producer Jenna Sadhu, and editorial assistant Krista White. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Special thanks to Steven Tolle and the team at City Vox for the audio production. Check back as we dish on the latest episode of Julia and chat with our cast and crew and special industry guests.
Paul Child:
To Julia.
Julia Child:
To us.