Dishing on Julia - Episode 7
Julia Child & The Kitchen Conundrum
Christine Tobin:
I've only seen her as Julia, and that's okay, but man, my mind will be blown if she was ever to walk in and I just see Sarah as Sarah.
Kerry Diamond:
That's Julia food stylist, Christine Tobin, talking about Sarah Lancashire, who plays Julia Child. Christine and her team were responsible for all the gorgeous food on the show. I'm so excited that Christine is joining us to share some behind the scenes details and tell us how Julia has influenced her life and career. Welcome to Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, the HBO Max original series, inspired by the life of Julia Child. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, and each week I recap a new episode of Julia and chat with special guests about the making of the show and the cultural impact of our culinary icon. Before we talk to Christine, we'll check in with Jenee LaMarque, who directed this episode as well as episode five, and Julia producer and writer, Emily Bensinger, about their contributions to the series. So let's dish on the latest episode. The Foie Gras episode. Can you believe we're up to episode seven? That means only one episode left after this.
Avis Devoto:
C'est la vie, mon cheri.
Kerry Diamond:
We're. Back on the set of The French Chef. Julia is making duck a l'orange, the exacting dish with its sweet and sour caramel sauce. And an entire roast duck requires a lot of attention. And Julia is clearly flustered.
Julia Child:
I just utterly distracted. My mind kept wondering to my speech for the gala.
Kerry Diamond:
What's diverting her attention? A speech she is scheduled to deliver at a public television gala in New York City. She and Avis go shoe shopping while Alice runs through her black tie wardrobe options with her mother, who encourages her to be a little sexy.
Virginia Naman:
Besides, you have my legs. Let the people see them.
Kerry Diamond:
She also pushes Alice to go on a blind date with the son of a family friend while she's in New York. Back at the Child's, Julia rehearses her remarks. Paul, despite being sick, suggests a rewrite.
Julia Child:
I'm offering after dinner remarks at the Waldorf. It's not a lecture at Harvard Hall.
Kerry Diamond:
The French chef crew makes its way to New York City. Julia leaves Avis to attend to the sick Paul at the Pierre Hotel. As she heads to lunch with her editor Judith Jones, and Judith's boss Blanch Knopf. Knopf being the publishing house responsible for Mastering the Art of French Cooking, Julia's cookbook, which is selling like hot cakes thanks to The French Chef TV show. But guess who doesn't watch The French Chef? Blanch Knopf. She is not a fan of television. Is anyone having flashbacks to Paul's TV tirade from episode one?
Blanche Knopf:
TV is not the future. It's fleeting.
Kerry Diamond:
And to think Julia was so excited about lunch at Luteces. She was finally going to try one of the famous French restaurant's signature dishes, Foie Gras with dark chocolate sauce and a bitter orange marmalade. Something is bitter, and it's not just the marmalade. Chef Andre Soltner, the real life Alsatian chef who helmed Lutece for decades, and was the man responsible for the foie gras dish, pays a visit to the table. Chef Andre is played by A.J. Shively.
Chef Andre Soltner:
May I ask you a small favor, mon ami?
Julia Child:
Yes, of course. Anything.
Chef Andre Soltner:
Let's leave the real cooking to the men or I'll be out of a job, eh? La cuisine France is no place for a woman. Not even a French one. Bientot Julia. It was truly an honor.
Kerry Diamond:
Hmm. Check, s'il vous plait. Russ, meanwhile, still looking to do work he considers more meaningful than The French Chef meets with Madeline Anderson, a trail blazing TV producer, and one of the inspirations for Alice Naman's character. They have espressos in Greenwich Village at Cafe Regio, supposedly the first place in America to serve a cappuccino. Russ is eager to head down south to report on the Civil Rights Movement. Madeline tells him to look in his own backyard.
Madeline Anderson:
Boston is as segregated as Birmingham. Just go outside and turn on your camera. Tell the story of the deep north.
Kerry Diamond:
Russ is embarrassed. Alice seems to be the only one having a great time in New York at the moment. In fact, she and her date, played by Tosin Morohunfola, chat for so long that a waitress has to shew them out at closing time. Isaac wants to see her again that very night, but Alice has the gala. Back at the Plaza Julia is inspired to rewrite her speech, and Judith, back at the office, takes her boss to task. Blanch Knopf will have none of this cookbook nonsense.
Blanche Knopf:
Your legacy is Anne Frank, Jean-Paul Sartre and Camus. You just won the National Book Award.
Judith Jones:
Okay.
Blanche Knopf:
You are the preeminent woman editor in the country. I have groomed you to be that. There is no one else like you, except me. That makes you an example for all other women. And you cannot take your stature, this opportunity you have as a woman in this business, and squander it editing cookbooks. Let someone else do that. Anyone else. You cannot.
Kerry Diamond:
The French Chef crew, dressed to the nines, arrive at the gala. Even Paul musters the strength to join in them. Julia is introduced by Vaughn Meader, a real life comic famous back in 1962 for impersonating president John F. Kennedy. Julia tells the audience that TV is a window to the most remarkable places, and the housewives she cooks for have endless horizons later. Julia bumps into Betty Friedan, played by Tracee Chimo Pallero. Betty, as many of you know, is the real life author of the book, The Feminine Mystique, one of the country's leading feminists, she is not a fan of Julia's.
Betty Friedan:
A good meatloaf isn't enough anymore. Now women have to prepare meals worthy of the finest chefs and still leave time for the children and the laundry. You've nicely raised the bar and what it means to be a good wife to professional levels.
Paul Child:
Now see here.
Betty Friedan:
How can these women, who you have locked in the kitchen, possibly find time for anything else, let alone a career?
Kerry Diamond:
Paul and Russ come to her defense and Julia takes refuge on a couch in the lobby. A man named Fred asks to join her. An attempt to cheer her up.
Fred Rogers:
Well, I like you. I like you just the way you are.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Show of hands listeners. How many of you knew that was Fred Rogers, who in just a few years would go on to star in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. Fred is played here by Rob McClure. Julia, by the way, made a cameo on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood in 1974 and cooked some spaghetti. Does Julia recover and have a snappy new day? Will Alice and Isaac make their mothers happy? Will Paul make a full recovery? We'll find out next week, but don't go anywhere. What's that?
Julia Child:
You've been here all this time? You're an angel, that's what you are.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes you are. And now let's welcome to Dishing on Julia our first guests, Julia producer and writer, Emily Bensinger, and director Jenee LaMarque. Emily and Jenee, welcome to Dishing on Julia.
Jenee LaMarque:
Thanks Kerry.
Emily Bensinger:
Thank you.
Jenee LaMarque:
So great to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
Emily, let's start with you. When did you first learn who Julia Child was?
Emily Bensinger:
My husband and I were living in this small town in Texas and we were big takeout restaurant people, and there were just very few restaurants and nowhere to get takeout from. And so we started cooking. And he watched, funnily enough, her omelet episode and he started making omelets. And we had omelets for three weeks straight. But he got so good at it, and he still, it's the only thing he can make, but he can make a really good French omelet. And that was the very first time I had seen Julia. And then I started cooking while we were living in Texas and I actually can't make an omelet. But I never really, I don't have to.
Kerry Diamond:
You didn't need to make an omelet.
Emily Bensinger:
Exactly. Yeah. But that was one of the funniest things about reading the pilot. Totally related to Albert.
Kerry Diamond:
Jenee, how about you?
Jenee LaMarque:
My husband went to baking school and is an amazing baker. And, I think the first Valentine's Day we were together, I got him the book Baking with Julia, but then his name is Julian. So I just added an N to the end of the cover of the book. And then I think beyond that, it was probably Julie and Julia was probably my next, the place where I learned probably the most about her before being on the show.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you grow up in a foodie family?
Jenee LaMarque:
I grew up in a foodie family, but my mom was not a cook, but we love going to great restaurants and all of that. We're definitely foodies. But my husband is an incredible cook, an incredible baker, and I've learned a ton from him. And now my 14 year old daughter also just went to baking school. So everyone's baking around town.
Kerry Diamond:
Emily, what drew you to this project?
Emily Bensinger:
I had worked with Chris before, which is a pleasure. And when he had mentioned that I had an opportunity to maybe work on Julia I jumped. And I met Daniel, and read the script, and the script is so great. And who wouldn't want to work on the show about Julia Child?
Kerry Diamond:
Jenee, how about you?
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah, actually, I had also worked with Chris before, although not directly. I did an episode of the reboot of Party of Five, which he was an EP on. I mean, what drew me to it is I love working with HBO. I had never done a period piece before. Julia Child is just, she just makes everything better. Being around her is just life affirming, and joyful, and hopeful. And I think that's definitely coming through on the show.
Kerry Diamond:
Jenee, as a director, I'm so curious, what kind of preparation you do for a project like this?
Jenee LaMarque:
I approached it like, I guess, any episode that I would direct in the sense that the first thing is to just know the script inside and out. And for me what's most important is to really be clear on what the character arcs are in each scene, and also, what the emotional story of the episode is. Those things are the most important to me. And then from then on it's just listening to Emily, to Daniel, to Chris about what their intentions are, and collaborating with the other department heads to try to tell that story, that emotional story, that we are all talking about. And that can be through many things. Production, design, cinematography, costume design. So I just really enjoy collaborating with the different departments to sort of build it together. To me, it's all about the script.
Kerry Diamond:
And Emily, since you're responsible for the script, or you're one of many people responsible for the scripts. What kind of research or preparation do you do?
Emily Bensinger:
I did a lot of reading for this project. I read Alex Prud'homme. I read a biography of James Beard, because I ended up writing the episode where we meet James Beard. The Man Who Ate Too Much is wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
John Birdsall's book.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a great book.
Emily Bensinger:
It's fantastic. And I watched a lot of The French Chef, which did not feel like research.
Kerry Diamond:
And was this the first period piece that either of you had worked on? One of you said you'd never worked on a period piece before.
Emily Bensinger:
I write a lot of period, but no one's ever made them before.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, great.
Emily Bensinger:
Period is so fun.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yes, it is. Every day that I would get to work on the shooting days it just, the cars, the costumes, the production design, just the purses, the bags. It just delighted me to no end.
Emily Bensinger:
I'm so mad I wasn't there. The sets, the costumes-
Jenee LaMarque:
Next time.
Emily Bensinger:
... it all looks so gorgeous.
Jenee LaMarque:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. So you mentioned that the writers aren't necessarily on set. So is that just one of the things you have to accept, Emily, when you're a writer?
Emily Bensinger:
No, I was actually a special circumstance. Chris tends to have his writers on set, producing their episodes, which is wonderful. I had just had a baby a few weeks before my episode was shooting, and so I did not go to set. But I was on Zoom for the production meetings, and I got to speak with Jenee and a lot of the actors almost every day. I think, I don't know if I made any sense on those phone calls, but-
Jenee LaMarque:
Oh, you completely did. Yeah. I mean, I was shocked that she was able to function at the incredibly high level that she was functioning at that moment, because my brain, after I had babies were just gel.
Emily Bensinger:
I don't remember any of it, but I mean the baby, he was just asleep the whole time.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah. Sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Aw, well congratulations. It's, I guess, two babies, right?
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah. It was-
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah, two babies.
Emily Bensinger:
... very exciting.
Jenee LaMarque:
But I do think that's actually unique about Chris, is that he does want his writers on set, producing their episode. He's very empowering as a showrunner, I would say. And more so than any other showrunner I've worked with in that regard. And I'm also a writer, so I love that he treats the writers the way that he does. I think it's really special and great.
Emily Bensinger:
It's very special. I hope more showrunners start doing it, because I think it's good for the show, and it is so wonderful for the writers.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah. I mean it's like also prep for becoming a showrunner, because you're getting that onset experience that otherwise you wouldn't get.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah. And set is just cool.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah. Set is cool.
Emily Bensinger:
It is just so cool to be there. And there's so much free food. I really missed out on the free food.
Jenee LaMarque:
It's true.
Kerry Diamond:
We're talking to Christine Tobin after we talk to the two of you.
Jenee LaMarque:
Oh God, yes.
Emily Bensinger:
That's going to be great.
Jenee LaMarque:
Christine, yes. She would share all of her creations, because she would prep for the episodes and be trying things out, and she would just bring you beautiful little things every day that you were on the stage. It was so good.
Emily Bensinger:
Oh, don't rub it in.
Jenee LaMarque:
Sorry.
Emily Bensinger:
Season two.
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like if Julia were a high school and you had a yearbook, Christine would've won most popular-
Jenee LaMarque:
Oh yes. For sure.
Kerry Diamond:
... in the year book. Who would've gotten most likely to succeed?
Emily Bensinger:
I think I read that David Hyde Pierce was most likely to succeed in his high school yearbook.
Jenee LaMarque:
I mean that totally tracks.
Emily Bensinger:
It could have, it might have been most talented.
Jenee LaMarque:
I mean-
Emily Bensinger:
It was probably most talented.
Jenee LaMarque:
... that also tracks for me. Yeah. I mean, come on.
Kerry Diamond:
Emily, I love that you know that.
Jenee LaMarque:
Sarah Lancashire, I mean.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah.
Jenee LaMarque:
David Hyde Pierce.
Emily Bensinger:
It's hard. I mean, how can you pick from this group of people?
Jenee LaMarque:
I know.
Emily Bensinger:
It's a lot of people at the top of their game.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Jenee, you mentioned that you are also a writer.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You've also been an actor.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So I'm so curious. How is it that directing has won out, or do you still hope to do all three throughout the course of your career?
Jenee LaMarque:
I don't hope to do all three. I started as an actor just because growing up I did theater, and it's when you're interested in film and television, actors are the face of it. So it's like, that's the thing that I was first drawn to. But then what I realized, after being in LA and pursuing acting for a minute, is that, I wrote this short film that I produced, and I was in, and I realized that I just highly prefer the writing and the producing of it to the acting in it. I was like, oh, what I really love is collaborating and building something with a team. That's what I love.
Being an actor can be a very solitary pursuit. And I just wasn't interested in that lifestyle. I just wanted to make things, and I wanted to be in control of my own creativity, which is why I started doing screenwriting. And then I went to AFI and I studied screenwriting there. And so I'm still doing that. I've written and directed two movies, and I've written and directed a few episodes of television as well. And then I'm now hoping to make another feature soon.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about episode seven because a lot happens here. The Betty Friedan scene is fascinating. And as I mentioned in the recap, Betty feels that Julia has set women back. And I would love to know, do you two agree, disagree? Was that a fair assessment at the time?
Jenee LaMarque:
I think it was probably a fair assessment at the time, perhaps. I don't think it holds water now just because for me being a true feminist means allowing women to have all of the options. I mean, I think what she's specifically calling Julia out on in episode seven, to me, I'm like, if that's what a woman wants to do, then let her do it. I think at the time there's this more radical view of what it meant to break away from the patriarchy and what was happening in the '60s. And I think there's a lot more latitude in 2022.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah, totally agree. I think when we were talking about that scene we really wanted Betty Friedan's argument to be compelling. I don't disagree with what she was saying, but I think if you only look at people as symbols then you're going to miss a lot. And what Julia ultimately is a symbol of is of forging your own path and being a trail blazer and a ground breaker. And she was also a huge advocate for planned parenthood. I think if Betty Friedan saw her today they'd be friends. Maybe they wouldn't be friends. But maybe they would.
Jenee LaMarque:
Maybe they would. Hopefully Betty continued to evolve.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah. And I think-
Kerry Diamond:
Julia certainly evolved.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
On a lot of topics.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yes.
Emily Bensinger:
She did. And one of the wonderful things about her was that she was not afraid to change her mind and to say that she's changed her mind about things. She really was her own person. And I think that's what The Feminine Mystique is about. It's about women getting to be their own people.
Kerry Diamond:
I also want to talk about the wonderful back and forth with Avis and Paul. And Jenee, that must have been so much fun to direct. Tell us how that was given that Bebe Neuwirth and David Hyde Pierce have so much history together.
Jenee LaMarque:
Well, I could honestly shoot an entire season of just the two of them in a hotel room bothering each other, and hanging out, and talking. I mean, it was just so, so fun. And they have such an easy chemistry and a trust of one another, that those days that we were shooting those scenes in the hotel were just, they were just magical. They were so fun. I mean, my collaboration with both of them was really wonderful. And David and I definitely shared a very special connection. I was talking to Emily about that on the way in. Yes, David and I really saw eye to eye as artists, and so that was really, really fun. He even called me on the weekend one time to tell me how much he liked working with me. And no actor had ever done that. And it was just like, David's just such a good guy that you're like, of course he called me on the weekend to tell me that.
Emily Bensinger:
He's amazing.
Jenee LaMarque:
He's amazing.
Emily Bensinger:
And he really, his connection with Paul and what he brought to Paul was just, it's so easy to write Paul off as all these different kinds of things. And David really made him a full person. And Paul Child was believable. And I think David, he did so much research. He knew everything about Paul Child.
Jenee LaMarque:
He knew everything. Yes. He knew everything.
Kerry Diamond:
Emily, who has it been the most fun to write for? Which character?
Emily Bensinger:
That's such a hard question because they're all so fun. I think writing James Beard was a dream. I think I'd have to say James Beard. But Alice's storyline is, I think, my favorite.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Then we have to talk about Mr. Rogers, because he is also in this episode, which is just absolutely the cherry on top. Why did you drop in Fred Rogers? Does anyone know where that came from?
Jenee LaMarque:
I'm going to defer to Emily on this one.
Emily Bensinger:
I think just, we're making a show about a giant of public television and you can't not talk about Fred Rogers if you're going to talk about public television.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah.
Emily Bensinger:
And we all, everyone in the writer's room, you just say Mr. Rogers and everyone goes, "Oh." We all love him.
Jenee LaMarque:
It's sort of how people feel about Julia, right?
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah.
Jenee LaMarque:
There's a similar feeling, a warmth when you think of them.
Emily Bensinger:
Totally.
Jenee LaMarque:
I think it's, I love the end of episode seven. It could be cheesy. And it's just so understated and elegant the way that they wrote it, and the way that the actors performed it. And it was sort of exactly what Julia needed in that moment.
Emily Bensinger:
And yeah. It's just, who wouldn't want that to happen to them when you're feeling your most blue. You end up sitting next to Fred Rogers. Yeah. That's what we were hoping for.
Jenee LaMarque:
And he tells you that he likes you just the way that you are. Yes. I mean, that's what everybody wants to hear pretty all the time, every day. Right?
Emily Bensinger:
And it also, I think the other thing that was great about adding him in is it does give some context for, I mean, he hadn't had his show yet, and it just reminds you of how early Julia was.
Kerry Diamond:
I felt like Julia had her own personal Mr. Rogers Neighborhood moment right then and there.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I only learned this last year. Did you know that Julia was actually on Mr. Rogers?
Jenee LaMarque:
I did not.
Emily Bensinger:
I don't think I knew that either.
Kerry Diamond:
It is an interesting scene. I have to re watch it, but she shows up they make spaghetti, and you can find it on YouTube. So just Google Julia Child.
Jenee LaMarque:
I'm definitely going to look for that one, I guess.
Kerry Diamond:
Mr. Rogers. Yes. And then I want to hear what you two think after that. I should have sent you that as homework. Any other favorite moments from episode seven?
Emily Bensinger:
I can tell you mine.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah. Go for it.
Emily Bensinger:
Which you did such a good job with the Alice at the end. Just that moment in the hotel lobby with Isaac.
Jenee LaMarque:
Oh, yes.
Emily Bensinger:
Just that heart melt. Uh.
Jenee LaMarque:
That was really fun.
Emily Bensinger:
And it was so sweet.
Jenee LaMarque:
It was really exciting because I had worked with Tosin, the actor, before on another show and I had suggested him, and then they ended up casting him, and I just love him. So I was so excited that it had worked out, and he was so fun.
Emily Bensinger:
So romantic.
Jenee LaMarque:
It was so romantic. It was so fun.
Emily Bensinger:
And their diner scene also was. Yeah.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah. That day on set was really hard, but the scene itself was just coming unfrayed.
Emily Bensinger:
You can't tell.
Jenee LaMarque:
It was like 100 degrees in that diner with no AC, and everyone was wearing sweaters and-
Emily Bensinger:
Oh my God. I didn't know that.
Jenee LaMarque:
It was, yeah. Yeah.
Emily Bensinger:
Well, their chemistry was great.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Last question for you two. If Julia were coming over for dinner, what would you make and who would you invite?
Emily Bensinger:
I would just want to have Julia teach a bunch of my friends and I how to cook. My friends and me. Yeah.
Jenee LaMarque:
Oh, that sounds like the best.
Emily Bensinger:
Yeah. I would never cook for her. I'm not, I don't, I'm not good myself. I would want her to show me how to cook. And I think that's what she really loved, so.
Jenee LaMarque:
I think I would just invite my closest friends, like my best girlfriends. And I have a friend named Steven, who's a huge foodie. He's one of my best friends. It would just be very intimate. And I guess I'd probably make Steak au Poivre, and a really wonderful salad with lots of herbs, and colorful. And my husband makes pretzel challah. And it's incredible. So we'd make that. I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Stop the presses. Pretzel challah.
Jenee LaMarque:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How do we get our hands on that?
Jenee LaMarque:
He uses the real lye and everything.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Jenee LaMarque:
It's the, yeah, the dangerous chemicals.
Emily Bensinger:
Cool. Fight Club.
Jenee LaMarque:
So
Kerry Diamond:
This could be a really lucrative side hustle for you. I'm telling you.
Jenee LaMarque:
It really could. It's just incredibly-
Kerry Diamond:
Pretzel challah.
Jenee LaMarque:
...It's so good. And then you just like use it for the rest of the week when it goes bad and make French toast. And it's so good.
Emily Bensinger:
I want to come to your Julia dinner.
Jenee LaMarque:
Okay, cool. You can totally come.
Emily Bensinger:
It sounds more fun than mine.
Jenee LaMarque:
You definitely should come to the Julia dinner.
Emily Bensinger:
Great. I'm inviting myself to your dream Julia dinner.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you so much to Emily and Jenee for joining us. Now let's welcome our next guest, Julia food stylist, Christine Tobin. So you come from a family of Julia Child lovers. Your mom, your dad, everybody loved Julia. Tell us about the connection.
Christine Tobin:
My mom and my Nana lived with us and she was the one immigrated from Sicily. So we were always a big culinary family with her and my Nana cooking. We would have priests over every Sunday.
Kerry Diamond:
Priests over every Sunday.
Christine Tobin:
Oh yes. And they really delighted in that. So we grew up with lots of company and family coming in from New York City, because we had moved to Massachusetts when I was two. And then Julia Child's entrance into this what was a heavier into Sicilian cuisine or Italian cuisine, and American cuisine. It was him that really sort of gravitated towards watching Julia on WGBH, PBS at that point.
Kerry Diamond:
This is your dad?
Christine Tobin:
This is my dad. So growing up, watching PBS. First you start with Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street, and then you slowly sort of graduate into these other shows, and sort of paid more attention to those programs. So Painting with Bob Ross would come on, and then would come Julia Child and The French Chef. And my dad would sit with his stack of newspapers. I would sit on the carpet and be drawing from Bob Ross, but then suddenly gravitate and sort of graduate to paying more attention to what Julia Child was doing. And then he would just enjoy her and just have a smile from ear to ear while watching her. And it was mostly him in my family that would then cook from her cookbooks as a challenge. So his claim to fame was the duck l'orange. I mean, I can still taste it. And it's still to this day, one of the greatest food stories of dad.
Kerry Diamond:
I also love how PBS shaped you, Christine.
Christine Tobin:
Absolutely.
Kerry Diamond:
I think if somebody asked me, pick three TV shows that would describe Christine Tobin, I would definitely say Sesame Street, Painting with Bob Ross, and Julia Child. You basically are all those shows in a blender, right?
Christine Tobin:
It totally makes total... There's so much making sense from this job and this experience that I'm going to take a lot of time to sort of put pen to paper and write this stuff down, because it is very strange, not strange, but really magical how all those things in early age just sort of has kept breath with me and just sort of formed its own life.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. And hopefully after this episode people have really caught on to the fact that this entire series is a love letter. Well, it's a love letter to many things, but it's also a love letter to public television.
Christine Tobin:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I still, I prefer watching now the Masterpiece Theater drama series, and the Sherlock's, and the Homes series. And we had Doctor Zoom. Was it Doctor Zoom? No, Doctor Who.
Kerry Diamond:
Doctor Who.
Christine Tobin:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
We're on Zoom, but the doctor is Doctor Who.
Christine Tobin:
We're on Zoom.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Christine Tobin:
Yes, because that's all that was on back then. Once we were teenagers then we would watch the Creature Double Feature, and wrestling. Then comes MTV, and then it's all over for a while.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you still like Julia as a teenager?
Christine Tobin:
I did. But I think at that point my interests were definitely more in visual art making. And back then, my parents always encouraged me to be an artist and work creatively. But in retrospect, had I been more in tune to my interest in Julia, and I think it was just more like it was so ingrained in our family interests, and togetherness, and the way we shared with our community, our friends on the street, or family, it just was part of us, than something I thought that I could pursue as a career. It was more of a hobby, cooking. And I would pretend I was her bringing home the recipes from home economics, or making salad. I was always in charge of making the salad at night times because we always had a salad at dinner. So I would just sit there and just in my head, like her voice was already part of my inner voice until I found my own voice, if that makes any sense. And I still hear her in my head, and it hasn't really, she's always been there.
Kerry Diamond:
Now. You've worked on a lot of cool jobs as a food stylist, but I would imagine it doesn't get any better than working on a Julia Child series. What went through your mind when you got the initial call?
Christine Tobin:
I thought leaving Little Women was the pinnacle and a full circle moment for me.
Kerry Diamond:
You had worked on Greta Gerwig's Little Women.
Christine Tobin:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Beautiful movie.
Christine Tobin:
And then when I got off the phone with the producer of Julia, I definitely just hung the phone up and started heart palpitations. Not that I was scared or anything, but just like, this is even bigger, and what an honor that they entrusted me to give me a call. Just pure excitement.
Kerry Diamond:
What kind of research did you do to prepare? I can't even imagine.
Christine Tobin:
So once I received the scripts, I just went right into highlighting and dissecting each script with each dish, or restaurant scenario, and then started flushing out outlines, and what props we're going to need, and what set dressing we will need. And it then carried on to recipe testing and development from my house before we had the sound stage built. I was just immediately just wanting to get ahead on it, because I mean, it was just a big job, and I didn't want to fall behind on anything. And I was really excited.
Kerry Diamond:
What is set dressing?
Christine Tobin:
Set dressers are those who bring, my needs are what would be on the table scapes, or platters, and napkins, and cloths, and glasses. And then as props that we'll bring and source. Those items that an actor will actually touch. So a glass, or a knife, or the food itself. So I fall technically under the property department.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the team decide what food or recipes would be shot for the series? You said you got the scripts and went through and highlighted it. Had much of the food been decided at that point, or did you have input?
Christine Tobin:
A lot of the food had been decided. Hence the title for each episode is exactly how it was titled for each script.
Kerry Diamond:
Hopefully, everyone has noticed every episode is titled after a food.
Christine Tobin:
And hopefully, everyone's making them at home to eat while you're watching the episode.
Kerry Diamond:
I hope so, too.
Christine Tobin:
It was just about researching and practicing those steps and actions to best illustrate, with Sarah, or for Sarah, for the directors, what the beats are for each.
Kerry Diamond:
Sarah Lancashire, who plays Julia.
Christine Tobin:
She's amazing. It's me who's designing and flushing out a menu, or a table scape of other foods that, frankly I would want to eat, that would make sense and be period correct. And also celebrate those chefs and their legacy like Joyce Chen, and going through her cookbook and cooking from it. I mean, it was awesome. And same with Lutece.
Kerry Diamond:
I knew of Joyce Chen. I didn't know she actually had a Chinese restaurant in Cambridge starting in 1958, 1959. Really remarkable.
Christine Tobin:
Super remarkable.
Kerry Diamond:
People might not realize a lot of the restaurants are based on actual restaurants. The French restaurant they go to. How about the San Francisco restaurant? Was that a real restaurant?
Christine Tobin:
As far as I know. I'm still wondering the same thing. It's a fictional restaurant. And the hardest part is it's James Beard who says, "I'm taking you to my favorite restaurant." Well, then I reached out to food makers like legends out in San Francisco. Like, "I don't suppose you know James Beard's favorite restaurant?" No one knows. And it wasn't until I had a two hour conversation with Dorie Greenspan, which pinch me. And I asked her and she said, "No, well, the saying is his favorite restaurants were the ones that welcomed him in." He just loved food and he loved celebrating it and loved sharing it similar to Julia.
So in this case it was a restaurant named Fable and it was scripted as being a farm-to-table restaurant. And really having to research that as far as that period goes, and here we are in today's time where that is the norm. Slow food, farm to table. I did then just focus on Chez Panisse and the legacy of Alice Waters, and was really careful about it, because I didn't want to mirror it completely because it wouldn't be really period correct, but just sort of have her as a source of inspiration for some of the items that you see on the table. And it was a beautiful a table.
Kerry Diamond:
Because I'm such a big fan of yours, and I knew how much work you had put into each of these scenes, I loved the restaurant scenes and I was constantly pausing looking for little Easter eggs or clues you might have dropped on each table. And for the San Francisco one, I was like, oh, I want to figure out what restaurant this is based on and I kept pausing. And there was a lot of bread on the table. I thought maybe that was an homage to San Francisco sourdough. Did you bone marrow moment on the table?
Christine Tobin:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So it was great.
Christine Tobin:
I love designing table scapes. It's like one of my favorite parts and elements of the job, because you really play with colors and textures. And so the robustness of certain dishes. So the bone marrows, I don't even know. I have no idea how I thought of bone marrow, but I just wanted the height of it and the succulence of it. And of course, James Beard is the one in the table who just went for it. Christian just starts slathering the marrow on toast. But the bread, that is one piece that is a Chez Panisse special. I don't want to... I guess a specialty is a cheese stuffed dough that is fire baked.
So because of our location, we have that in the background. So it actually added the element of a background actor's action by pulling this bread out of the wood burning stove. And I don't know if anyone would pick up on it, but it was also just to make sense of the overall scope of the space that they were in, because there's so many. In case the camera was to hit the background and what was happening in the activity of the kitchen, just what would make sense of what would be there at the table.
Kerry Diamond:
We're getting super nerdy now. I even missed that, Christine.
Christine Tobin:
So I love nerding out, but we're so lucky that when we were shooting Julia it was in the middle of the summer entering fall. So here in Boston, I was able to go to my happy place at this farm, Allandale Farm, and get the most beautiful tomatoes, and gentle lettuces, and really celebrate our local produce as Julia would.
Kerry Diamond:
Christine, what is a gentle lettuce?
Christine Tobin:
Oh, like a butter lettuce.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Christine Tobin:
Just those really soft, delicate lettuces, like a bib lettuce.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a lovely description. I did notice there's the scene in, I think it's episode six, when Simca and Julia are having yet another one of their fights. And Simca is trying to talk her into the cassoulet, and Julia's trying to talk her into bread, and there are the most beautiful tomatoes on the counter in Simca's house. And I was like, oh, I just love those details.
Christine Tobin:
I do too. I just always disappear to my little secret places when there was a beat of quietness on set or a day that was just a prep day and I would just say to my team, I'm just going to go to my happy places. And it would be the farm. It would be the Eastern European markets in Brookline for really specialty delicacies, and meats and such. Depending on whatever scene was coming up, or for something like the Joyce Chen Chinese food scene, going to the Asian markets in Quincy and Dorchester, which is just so much fun anyways, and just sort of picking out and curating some of those items to flush out further. If you just pause it at the right time, you could probably see it, because it goes by really fast.
Kerry Diamond:
Was all the food real? It certainly seems like it was.
Christine Tobin:
All the food was real. It happened to always be real and no one's ever asked me to do anything other than real. I am very intrigued with the idea of mold making, and just from my sculpture background and my art background, and I'm not afraid to do those things. It just is a totally different brain and would need a different space and timeline to make those things, because I know in LA they have prop houses, and New York. But here I'm just kind of a lone wolf. I have no idea. I'm just making up as I go.
Kerry Diamond:
Your deal is real, so.
Christine Tobin:
My deal is real. I'm just making it up as I go, but I'm open to whatever the needs are. And when it comes to food in front of people, that just freaks me out. I would much rather have them want it, and eat it, and enjoy it because that's the natural reason why food should be there.
Kerry Diamond:
Now people actually ate this food. I know a big thing with food stylist is food waste and you did a lot to combat food waste on set. Tell us about that.
Christine Tobin:
Throughout the sound stage, we had a strict recycling program, but for us in our needs, we had someone come and collect our compost from the back of the building. And then we also had a communal fridge outside of the kitchen space so cast and crew can come by and sometimes if there's just a head of lettuce, and it's a Friday and someone could take it home.
Kerry Diamond:
Or take home that gentle lettuce.
Christine Tobin:
All the gentle lettuce, but there's just no way I'm throwing out beautiful, fresh food unnecessarily. I mean, it blows my mind. And even if we're on location we always bring to go boxes. And we have a line in front of us at the end of each scene or wrap and people are able to take home whatever was prepared in that scene. So something like the Chinese restaurant scene, and Luteces, and others, we always make sure people can take home things.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about the kitchen because you apparently had this really gorgeous kitchen that was not typical for TV shows.
Christine Tobin:
I'm a lone wolf here in Boston, so I don't know what people are doing anywhere else. I just know for me, this was an incredible gift.
Kerry Diamond:
I know, but you're no slouch. You've worked on some big stuff.
Christine Tobin:
I've worked on some big stuff, but we always just get scrappy about it. And the film, we're just always a bunch of like carnies and we're just scraping, we're just pulling it together. And in this case, they took the time to talk to me about how best to move forward and a truck versus a stationary kitchen. And from the pilot and having had the experience in a stationary space where myself and Rachel and Carolyn who, and were my two assistants then, we just cooked communally, and it brought, and we will continue to bring a certain spirit to the food and food making. And it just allowed for a lot of creativity and organic float from kitchen to set, and also was such a nice way of inviting people inside of the process. So we would have people bounce in and check on us or, or whatnot. So I wanted to continue that with the sound stage once we started filming the rest of the series.
Paul Peabody, who was the head of the construction team, had just said, just take a piece of paper and draw what you think. And I did. And he passed it along and that ended up in a million other hands and they approved it, and they built it. And it was built no different than the rest of the sets where it was built and it was soundproof. And they installed sprinkler system. They busted through cement wall to give plumbing. And then with a company called Westermans in Worcester, Danny, who's great. Hi, Danny. He came in and we just talked about what best equipments to bring in that would be used. And we used every single inch and piece of equipment that was brought in.
And having something like a walk-in and a sanitation area with a dishwasher, that's huge. I mean, we're usually with bus buckets with sanitation spray at the end of scene sometimes, depending on where or what the job is. And that's just the elements of the job. But in this case, the production took very good care of us as a department. And also, just even in the food safety elements, not just for COVID, but just food handling and such that we had just an incredible once in a lifetime experience.
Kerry Diamond:
And you had them put in a window so you could see out and folks could see in. Why was that important to you?
Christine Tobin:
Because I've always worked in kitchens that had a window, or an open space, like open kitchens. And just much information you can get from standing there and looking in to talk to the chefs, or whatnot. And to communicate, I thought, well, to be holed up would feel really claustrophobic because we're always going to be in here a lot. So I just wanted to be able to look out and just see the motion of the floor, and see, I can tell if something's about to get cut, or if they're rolling, or there's lunch, or something's going on.
But then what ended up happening is then people started looking in. The light was always shining from the inside of the kitchen in this dark space. And I know when there were times where I would have to travel in between the stages on the sound stage, it just made me so happy to see the lights on and see the activity going in, because we were working nonstop. Food on film takes a lot of care and a lot of work. And I not for a minute wanted people to not see that because we really put in 150% to the production of it.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you make Julia's actual recipes for some of these scenes? When we see the Crepe Suzette, when we see a roast chicken that she's serving her dad and Paul.
Christine Tobin:
Oh. Roast chicken.
Kerry Diamond:
They're all-
Christine Tobin:
Yes. All of the croutons that the chickens served on top of, the pan juices, everything is from her cookbook 100%. The one thing that had to be a bit altered, only because she didn't have such a recipe, was the cooking class scene. It was scripted, I think, as shrimp puffs or shrimp turnovers. I don't remember. But looking through the cookbook and not finding it, but just trying to come up with something. So I came up with the dough going into to the muffin tins and her putting the shrimp on top, because ultimately that would be much more attractive for camera than just a triangle. So that is something that I took the liberties of finessing, but it's out of necessity. And I worked with the writer on it. And that was really wonderful because I never, someone like me doesn't get those opportunities.
Kerry Diamond:
Christine, this is going to be like asking someone who's their favorite child, but did you have a favorite food scene in the series?
Christine Tobin:
I keep going back to Joyce Chen only because it was such a joyful moment for the characters to be there celebrating. It was just so cheerful. And I think in the spirit of Julia and Paul and their friends, just how they would sit and just enjoy their company, enjoy their food. And I know that Chinese food is one of Julia Child's favorite cuisines. And I most certainly will have to include any moment that I got to support Sarah in her preparations in food making on camera.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Let's talk about Sarah for a second. Is it true you never saw Sarah Lancashire out of character? That you only knew her as Julia Child?
Christine Tobin:
I've only seen her as Julia. And that's okay. But man, my mind would be blown if she was ever to walk in and I just see Sarah as Sarah. I mean, even before Julia I was a massive, because of watching Masterpiece, and BBC, and all of her work, I'm a huge fan of hers as an actress. So I would probably faint, even though I've been around her for however many months.
Kerry Diamond:
I get the sense that this project has really changed you and moved you as a person.
Christine Tobin:
It has. And I don't know how to articulate it quite yet, because I've started putting thoughts onto paper about it just so I can go back and understand it a bit more, because the whole time you're just so busy doing the job. And there were moments that I would be either on the stage or on the other side of the wall from Sarah and be like, this is wild. This is crazy. I find my reflection on food and food making very personal. My history goes back to childhood with having such wonderful food makers. And then I became one and self-taught through the guidance of chefs that I worked for, but never really pieced it together. And then, just like this slow progression into what is now a career at 50 years old. Not saying it wasn't three years ago or two years ago, but you just sort of, as a freelancer, you just sort of bounce between in jobs.
Be like, I hope the phone will ring. And it does. And you do it and you piece together just like Julia did. You piece together income sort of geared off of art making, visual art making, and then going into the culinary world. So I really have built up such array of experiences through food, and find that all the experiences are personal experiences. So when I come to set and working on movies, it is personal to me. And I might nerd out a bit more than someone else might, but I just take a lot of care and responsibility to that part of the storytelling. So I think moving forward after this incredible experience, just finding ways to continue what really has turned me on most, which is how food plays such an important part in a narrative, a part of the visual storytelling.
Kerry Diamond:
Christine, this is the last question. And I'm so sad because I have loved talking to you. You're having dinner with Julia. What would you make and who would you invite?
Christine Tobin:
This is so hard, because I really would want to throw like a massive party, but I don't want to overwhelm her. I would want to recreate the cooking class scene with the beautiful lettuces and all these beautiful things from the farm. And I would want to include the recipe of hers that's sort of like our fusion, she and I, these shrimp things. And I would invite my team of incredible food makers. My assistant, Rachel Michael was Susan Spungen's assistant for a number of years. And she's a mom to two awesome kids. My friend, Carolyn White. I've known her since she was nine. Changed careers midlife from guidance counselor to chef. Sophia Aolo who is incredible at cooking as a mom of four. And then I have Brianna Borrelli. I have Tony Silva. I have the PAs, Abby and Carly. Valerie, of course.
And I think if we could sit down together with Julia and share something that we created of hers, but just with a couple of our own personal twists, I just think that would be a nice gift for all of us. And I think Julia would have a serious blast with us because we're a lot of fun. And I think she would really appreciate our own individual paths to have gotten to the point of helping bring herself back to life through her food that she loves so much. So, that's my answer.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you so much to Christine Tobin for joining us. I don't know about you, but I definitely need a snack right now. That's it for this episode of Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, now streaming on HBO Max. Dishing on Julia is produced by Cherry Bombe Media. Thank you to the Cherry Bombe team, including executive producers, Catherine Baker and Audrey Payne, Special Projects Editor Donna Yen, Associate Producer, Jenna Sadhu, and Editorial Assistant Krista White. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Special thanks to Steven Tolle and the team at City Vox for the audio production. Check back as we dish on the latest episode of Julia and chat with our cast and crew and special industry guests.