Haley Bennett & Victoria James Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. I'm coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City.
On today's episode, I'm chatting with Haley Bennett, the star and a producer of the new film "Widow Clicquot," which opens in theaters this Friday, July 19th. "Widow Clicquot" is the amazing and true story of Barbe-Nicole Clicquot Ponsardin, AKA Madame Clicquot of the Veuve Clicquot champagne empire.
Audio Clip:
Welcome to the vineyards of Versailles, the most beautiful in all Champagne. My darling, I think we might have found a secret to perfect happiness. I am hopelessly, unequivocally yours.
Haley Bennett:
Francois willed the vines to me because he knew I would never sell. I will be continuing to care for them myself.
Audio Clip:
Wine is a very difficult vocation, my dear. You underestimate what it would require.
Haley Bennett:
I know what it requires. I've been in the fields for years.
Audio Clip:
You have one chance, one. These fields do not need replanting or starting over again.
Haley Bennett:
I disagree. They need to struggle to survive.
Kerry Diamond:
The movie is based on The New York Times bestselling biography by Tilar Mazzeo. I know lots of you read her book and are excited to see the story on the big screen. And if you didn't read it, add it to your summer reading list.
In the second half of the show, we're checking in with another woman of wine, Victoria James, the author of “Wine Girl,” a very moving memoir that I recommend you all read. This is a re-air of my interview with Victoria from 2022. Stay tuned for Haley Bennett and Victoria James.
If you love all things wine, Cherry Bombe has a special event coming up this October 26th and 27th called Jubilee Wine Country. It's taking place at the beautiful Solage Resort in Calistoga, California. Jubilee Wine Country will feature two days of talks, panel discussions, a picnic lunch, a baker's breakfast, our big Wine, Women, & Song event on Saturday night, and lots more. Our keynote speaker is none other than Chef Dominique Crenn, and we'll have amazing folks there all weekend long. For tickets and more information, visit cherrybombe.com.
Now, let's check in with today's guest.
Audio Clip:
Now that Napoleon has been brought to his knees, all of Russia wishes to celebrate the end of this war by drinking The Comet. Your champagne is all sold. I wish I had more to sell.
Haley Bennett:
I've been turning the vessels each day over the last few weeks. And as I thought, sediment has solidified at the base, ready to be released.
Audio Clip:
The Tsar himself said he will drink none other. We must seize the moment.
Haley Bennett:
This is most definitely the future.
Kerry Diamond:
Haley, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Haley Bennett:
Hi, Radio Cherry Bombe.
Kerry Diamond:
So excited to chat with you. Let's jump right in, because you are very busy. The film premieres tonight. Tell us what drew you to the role of Madame Clicquot.
Haley Bennett:
Madame Clicquot is multifaceted, spirited, audacious, and brave woman who created an empire against all odds. And she is an icon. She's known as the Grand Dame of Champagne in France and in Europe, but I'm really excited about unbottling this woman and bringing her story to life for the screen for the first time.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you prepare for the role?
Haley Bennett:
Barbe is a woman who lived in a time when women were incredibly prohibited, and Barbe was widowed at 27. And her husband died very suddenly and left her with a young daughter. I was given Tilar Mazzeo's book, and it is a New York Times best seller. I was given the book by a young sommelier and she said, "You have to play this part." And I expected a story about luxury and bubbles and something that was much deeper than what I found, which was a woman who was designing her own life. And that was something that I could really relate with. It's what I'm trying to do. I'm in my 30s and I feel like I'm only now just starting to scratch the surface of what I want to achieve and my potential both professionally and personally. And I feel like "Widow Clicquot" has inspired me to move forward with that.
Clicquot is the kind of woman I hope to be, and I want to support other women and girls to do the same. And so, I produced this film and it's important for me to shine a light on ambitious, successful women who dream big and that want to achieve their goals, while still staying true to themselves. When I read the book for the first time, it was like the pages just lit up and she was a beacon of light for me. And I want to carry that torch forward, and I want to pass it on to my daughter. And it's one of the reasons I wanted to tell this story, because I want to be a light.
Kerry Diamond:
Haley, I was so excited to learn you're a producer on the film. What did it mean to star and to produce?
Haley Bennett:
To produce the film just means that you have a lot more control over all of the different aspects of the filmmaking. From the costumes to the production design, to the locations, to the set design, you're weighing in on all of those decision-makings or you're making those decisions on your own. And it's a more in-depth kind of collaboration. A lot of the films that I've done recently, like Swallow, I produced, I really prefer to work that way.
I do consider myself to be a very collaborative person, and I'm happy to jump on different projects, like “Borderlands,” or “Press Your Luck,” or “Till.” But what really makes me happy is producing films. I have a project upcoming that I can't really talk a lot about, but that I'm very excited about. That is even more in-depth than what I tried to do with Clicquot.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you remember who the young somm is who gave you the book?
Haley Bennett:
Yeah, her name is Jackie. She's a dear friend of mine. I met her, funny enough, coincidentally, on a farm that really inspired our filmmaking. It's a working vineyard. The reason I met Jackie is, she was working on that farm and we stayed in touch. And over the years, we became friends, and we are connected by this farm and our friend, Souza. We all go there and spend time there, and it's this very just raw and authentic. And Souza's farm and vineyard is very much fused into the essence of our film, "Widow Clicquot."
Kerry Diamond:
Did you get to visit the actual Veuve Clicquot winery?
Haley Bennett:
Yes. Yeah, I went to the winery. I visited her home that she actually lived in in Champagne. I went to the Clicquot estate. I passed through the actual caves, the Clicquot caves, and I saw the riddling racks. I touched the journals that Barbe-Nicole kept. And she was completely fierce, and she was the heart and soul of this operation. From the viticulture, she's a inventor. She was very involved in the marketing. She created the tangerine.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, the famous color?
Haley Bennett:
Famous color. She took it off of a notebook that she had. And during the war, she smuggled wine across borders. And she was very audacious and very brave to do what she did.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't wait to see you bring all of this to life on the screen. I could talk to you for the next hour.
Haley Bennett:
I hope I didn't give too much away.
Kerry Diamond:
You did not. You did not. Don't worry. And congratulations. From what I've seen, the film looks absolutely beautiful. And I can't wait to see it tonight.
Haley Bennett:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you so much to Haley. We'll be right back with Victoria James in just a minute.
Our Paris issue is out right now. If you are headed to the City of Light this summer or dreaming about a trip to Paris, our new issue is your perfect guide. Learn about the amazing women taking over the Paris food scene and discover all of their restaurants, bakeries, cafes, and more. We've got stories with some of your favorite Francophiles, folks like Ruth Reichl, Dorie Greenspan, and Mashama Bailey. You can pick up a copy at your favorite bookstore or magazine shop or culinary store, places like Smoke Signals in San Francisco, SCOUT in Marion, Iowa, Now Serving in Los Angeles, and Books Are Magic in Brooklyn.
Next up is a re-air of an interview I did with one of the most interesting women in wine today, Victoria James. Victoria is the author of “Wine Girl,” the moving memoir of how she became the youngest sommelier in the US at the age of 21. Victoria is also the beverage director at Gracious Hospitality Management, which includes the COTE Group of Steakhouses and the new Coqodaq fancy fried chicken spot here in New York City.
Victoria James, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Victoria James:
Thank you so much for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
It is so nice to see you, even though we're not in the same room together. You're down in Miami. Lucky you. Before we talk about your book, let's get a few life updates from you. Where does life find you today, and who is the newest member of your family?
Victoria James:
Oh, I just recently had a daughter. Her name is Simone, and she is just wonderful. She's teething now, so no one's sleeping very much. But she is such a joy.
Kerry Diamond:
Aww, Simone is such a beautiful name. Why did you pick that name?
Victoria James:
My husband, Lyle, and I, we had a running list of names that we were thinking about while I was pregnant. And I felt like we just really had to meet her first. And so, we met her and she just seemed like such a Simone. We're both Francophiles and we love the literary world. So, we were going to Simone and Harper, like Simone de Beauvoir and Harper Lee. And we decided on Simone Harper.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that. Okay. Practically speaking, I have to ask this, how do you work as a sommelier when you're pregnant?
Victoria James:
That's a great question. So, first of all, I wasn't really showing until I was around six months. So, in the very first trimester, I found out I was pregnant, Kerry. And literally the next day, I had to go down to Miami to open up this restaurant down here.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Victoria James:
So, our second restaurant, COTE, we have in the design district here, and we were throwing a crazy New Year's Eve party with Nas. And there's lots of champagne and everything. And I was like, "How am I going to do this?" Let me tell you, I opened up this restaurant. I was down in Miami for the whole first trimester for three months. It was definitely a learning curve. We had been trying to get pregnant for a while, and it wasn't as easy as we thought. And so, when it happened, it was such a joy. But I didn't really think about practically, I guess, how it would work. I taste up to 100 wines a day for my job.
Kerry Diamond:
100 a day?
Victoria James:
100 a day.
Kerry Diamond:
I probably should have asked first for you to explain what a somm actually does day to day, because I'm sure a lot of us just have a glamorous image in our minds of trying the best wines in the world, traveling to vineyards. But there's a lot of hard work and a lot more that goes into it.
Victoria James:
Well, you're not too far off. There are definitely those fun elements as well. But you're in a restaurant, on the floor, serving wine to 300 people a night. And it's definitely a good workout. And you get to taste all these great wines, but you're not drinking them because you're working. So, you spit everything. So, as a sommelier, I would smell everything. And sometimes, if I needed to, I would sip it and spit it. But trace amounts do get absorbed, so I was very careful there.
But the biggest thing was smell. I don't know why some women have different experiences. But for me, when I was pregnant, I was like a superhero. I was the best sommelier ever. I could smell if a wine was scorched from across the room. It was crazy.
Kerry Diamond:
That's incredible. Did it heighten all your senses?
Victoria James:
It heightened all the senses, both good and bad. No, but it was really amazing. Once during the second trimester, I told one of our sommeliers to pour me a flight of wines, what we would call in the industry an impossible flight. So, wines that I would not be able to guess because they were somehow atypical. And I guessed every single one right. It was just incredible. So, I don't know, I think being pregnant made me a better sommelier.
Kerry Diamond:
That is amazing. Okay, tell us about COTE. Well, there are multiple restaurants now. What is the restaurant group all about? And what is your role there?
Victoria James:
Yes. So, COTE is a Korean steakhouse that's really the brainchild of Simon Kim, who's the proprietor. And, of course, we have not just Simon, we have a whole team of partners who are really great. So, we have Chef David Shim, who's the chef partner, Tom Brown, who's the director of operations. And we have Chef SK, myself. We also have Amy, who does our operations, too.
So, we have a lot of great partners all involved. But essentially, the idea is that it's melding the traditional Korean barbecue, where you cook on the table and it's super fun, and it's fire and booze and such, and the classic American New York City steakhouse, and combining those two. And we were super lucky. After we opened, we got a Michelin star. We got all this press, and it really allowed us to do cool things.
And my role is everything liquid. So, I oversee everyone who's on team beverage, sommeliers, bartenders, barbacks, and also the unit beverage managers. But also, of course, although wine lists and bar programs and such. So, it's really a dream job.
Kerry Diamond:
Is it common for a somm to be a partner in a restaurant group?
Victoria James:
I don't think so. There are a few, for sure. But I was very fortunate that I worked with Simon at his first restaurant, Piora, in the West Village. And we just really worked so well together. And he's so gracious and so kind. And when he was opening up this next restaurant, he wanted to give me a piece of the pie. Actually, he's so funny. He gives so much, but he says he gives because he is also greedy.
And what he means by that is that if he gave parts of his business away to different people, he knew that we would treat it like our own. Of course, because it is our own, and we have that ownership. And so, myself and the other partners really, really pour all of our heart and soul into the restaurant. And so, it was actually a really smart move of his to give us significant pieces of the pie in order for his business to thrive.
Kerry Diamond:
So, walk me through the different aspects of COTE. There's COTE in New York. There's COTE Miami. You've got a cocktail bar. Is that in both locations?
Victoria James:
It's called Undercote. It's in New York. There are no basements in Florida, unfortunately, but I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
Good point.
Victoria James:
But maybe we'll have, I don't know, a Topcote one day or Undercote.
Kerry Diamond:
Topcote? I love it.
Victoria James:
Topcote. I don't know, we'll see. But we're working on a third location now to be determined as to where officially. But I think the concept is so fresh and invigorating. And Simon was one of the first to elevate Korean cuisine in the mainstream and really bring it to the people. And since then, we've seen so many great examples of amazing Korean chefs and restaurateurs coming forward and also living their dream.
Kerry Diamond:
If someone is going to COTE for the first time, what do they absolutely have to order? And what should they pair with it?
Victoria James:
So, they absolutely have to order our Butcher's Feast, which is our pre-fee option. It's super affordable. Simon really was passionate about making it still approachable. And although we're a Michelin star, although our reservation book fills up a month in the advance, we wanted to make sure that still, you could go, even if you're a college student and bring your partner there. So, that's super affordable and delicious. And it comes with all the traditional Korean banchan and four fabulous cuts of steak.
So, of course, you have to drink wine with it. There's nothing better in the whole world to pair with steak than wine. I'm a firm believer in that, and I've tried all of the things, trust me. So, I always get a really great bottle of red, something that's not too rich and overpowering, but like a Northern Rhône Syrah, Bandol Rouge, is really great.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about this incredible book that you've written. Your memoir, “Wine Girl,” came out in March 2020. Tell us why you wanted to write “Wine Girl.”
Victoria James:
I wanted to write this book for a long time. It actually was my idea before my first book, which was a really fun, whimsical book on rosé. And I talked to my literary agent about the concept, about this woman trying to make it an old man's world and talking about all of the sexism and abuse that happens, but also the really beautiful, glittering side of wine and why I fell in love with it and how it's so unique. My literary agent was like, "Yeah, that sounds really dark. I don't think that would sell." And this was pre-MeToo also, so no one was talking about these sorts of stories. And she was also like, "I don't know, you have a really great career ahead of you. Maybe not."
And so, I just kept working on it and almost therapeutically writing about these experiences. And then, all of a sudden, MeToo happened in the restaurant world. The Mario Batali thing happened and all of these different women were coming forward. And my agent called me and said, "Okay, I think we're ready for your book." And I was still pretty nervous. At that point, too, we had coach. The restaurant was doing really well. I was nervous what the other partners would think about the book and if they would even want to continue to work with me.
So, I had them all read it first. And I remember Simon, who is just so intelligent and so smart, but he doesn't read a ton of books, he's a very, very busy man, he read it all in a couple days. And he asked me not to change a thing, which was really powerful. He's an Asian American and as a Korean man, even still, when he goes to a lot of these events, it's a bunch of white French and Italian chefs. And then, there's Simon and Chef David. And so, he really understood what it meant to be on the margins of society and how important it was to talk about these things.
So, I finished the book, sold it. It was actually a really crazy story. I sold it to one of our regulars at the restaurant, Daniel Halpern, who is legendary. He was Anthony Bourdain's editor. And when we were putting together the finalized manuscript to send it out to publishers, I asked my agent, "Let's just send it to Daniel Halpern. We're not best friends, but he comes into the restaurant and we occasionally email about wine. Maybe he'd be interested." And she said, "Okay, but don't get your hopes up." She's very good at what she does, and she's like, "A lot of these people come in bright-eyed, bushy tailed." But this is Daniel Halpern.
So, we sent it out on a Friday, the manuscript. And on Monday morning, he called my agent, Allison, and said, "We want to preempt the book. So, take it off the market before it even goes to auction, before any other agent..." So, it was really wild. I didn't know that that was even possible.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow, sounds similar to Stephanie Danler's story. Stephanie's the author of “Sweetbitter.” I'm sure many of you out there have read that book. And I feel like maybe one of the regulars at Union Square Cafe, where she worked, was involved in the purchase of that book.
Victoria James:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
I have to look that up.
Victoria James:
Yeah. Actually, I believe that's true. And she really wonderful and I love her very much. And her writing's great. We actually pitched it as “Sweetbitter” meets “Educated” in terms of the book. So, she's a great inspiration as well.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the title, “Wine Girl.”
Victoria James:
So, it's sort of a reclamation of this slur I was called, as in, "Bring over the wine girl." Or I suppose they only send over the real sommelier when you spend money. And it was the equivalent of maybe someone saying, "Hey, boy, come over here. Send over the girl." But they wouldn't call any of my male colleagues that, of course. And it was just this theme throughout my career. Even if I started working in fancier places, one Michelin star, two Michelin-star restaurants, I still was nothing more than just the wine girl. So, taking back that and reclaiming that title.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you radiate competence to these people?
Victoria James:
Luckily, being a sommelier is not brain surgery. But I think a lot of people can relate to is just starting out in a field and really wanting to be taken seriously, and really being diligent and studious, and knowing your worth and that you're a smart person, and still not being taken seriously. And that's hard and that's true for, I think, every profession. But it was certainly a challenge in wine because it is literally an old boy's club. And it hasn't changed for centuries. So, it really was hard to break into as a young woman.
And I remember I would always constantly try to make myself look older. I saved up money so that I could buy my first pre-used Hermes scarf, because I saw all the women on the Upper East Side wearing those. And I just wanted to just look much older always. But, of course, hard to fool many. I think it just takes time, and you just have to keep your head down and work really hard. And hopefully, if you can win someone over and speak intelligently and relate to them on a personal level, they'll quickly be on your side.
Kerry Diamond:
I stayed up late and reread your book last night, and the first word that came to mind is harrowing. I had forgotten how harrowing, especially the beginning of this book, is. And the universe did not hand you an easy-breezy life in any way. How was the experience of reliving all of those experiences?
Victoria James:
Yeah. Writing, it was definitely therapeutic in a way, to be able to go through it and make sense of it. I think it also gave me a greater sense of empathy, to be able to relive some of the moments that my family members, that I went through, that friends went through. But honestly, Kerry, it didn't really feel real while I was writing it. I just always have kept a diary, so it really didn't feel like, "Oh, this is something that hundreds of people will read."
And it wasn't until I recorded the audiobook that it really hit home like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I..." Every paragraph, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I forgot I said that. I can't believe this is going to be out in the world." There was one part where I had to run to the bathroom and I puked, and it was so visceral and painful.
Kerry Diamond:
Was it almost like you were in a trance when you wrote it? Sometimes, as a writer, I know that had happens.
Victoria James:
It just felt like my safe place, like I could say anything here. There would be no repercussions because it felt like a diary in a way. And maybe a trance, for sure. And once the manuscript was done, I had gone over and I'd edit it so many times. I just remember sending it, the publisher is just not even wanting to reread it.
And even when I was working with Daniel Halpern on it, I don't know how to describe it, it didn't feel real until the audiobook, and then until it went out in the world, when everyone had an opinion on different parts and things. And I was like, "Oh, wow. Well, I can't believe I did that. I guess I did."
Kerry Diamond:
You'll have to tell me if I'm making too much of a leap here, but there are a lot of instances in the book where I feel like you really had to detach yourself and remove yourself mentally from the situation. Because they were just so hard and awful. And what you were put through was just excruciating. There are so many words I can use for what you went through. Was it something like that, where you just had to detach because it was just so hard, what you were sharing on the page?
Victoria James:
Yeah, there's lots of hard bits. There's lots of parts about abuse, sexism, misogyny, but it wasn't almost like detaching. It was like, I don't know, the first time when you have a painful memory and you relive it for the first time. It's incredibly painful. When you relive it for the second time, it's quite painful. When you relive it for the third time, it's painful. And by the fourth and fifth and sixth and 10th and 12th and 30th time, there's peace there. And I think that's where I eventually got to.
Kerry Diamond:
You note in the beginning of the book that you relied on years of your own diaries, your mother's diary, court transcripts, and other matters of record, to piece your story together. I was curious, what was it like reading your mother's diary?
Victoria James:
Yeah, that was another world. I know so many parents say this and maybe it is cliche, but you never really understand until you have your own child. And even writing this book, I didn't fully understand what my mom had went through, or just the depth of what it takes to be a parent. And then, I actually became one this past year and I had no idea.
And I think to see how much my mom was struggling with depression and she at one point had three children under three, which I can't even... One is so hard. I can't even imagine three. And then, also her asking for help, struggling with mental illness and not being able to get it, being refused. Going through these deep, deep, dark depressive periods where she wouldn't eat for days, and lock herself in her room, and me trying to connect with her and reading from her perspective, what she was going through.
And it's so funny. Because at that time, I remember feeling so alone, even though there was four children at one point and her. And she also felt so alone. And it's so interesting that there were so many of us that we all felt so trapped and so alone. And it just really gave me great empathy and a greater understanding of who she is.
Kerry Diamond:
Your first experiences around alcohol were not positive ones. Can you tell us the casino story?
Victoria James:
So, in the book, it goes from my childhood up to working in restaurants, and then eventually having my own restaurant. And so, in the beginning of the book, I talk about my childhood, my first experience with alcohol, and my father who was a struggling alcoholic at the time. And I was quite young. My siblings and I, we were teenagers. And my father, he had a very addictive personality. And so, he became addicted to gambling, as well as drinking. And so, we would sometimes not have to go to school. And he would bring us all down to Atlantic City, to the Trump Hotel Casino.
Kerry Diamond:
I laughed when I read that part.
Victoria James:
Yup, very fitting. Everything was gold, and everything was cheap, and everything would break. But they would send a limo to our house actually to pick us up. And we did not come from means, so that seemed the fanciest thing ever. But there was also this bit of guilt, like how much money is my dad really spending that they're sending this limo for us? And we would get to the casino, and he would just spend all day and all night there.
Sometimes, we wouldn't see him for days, and I felt so trapped staying in a hotel room with my siblings. I wanted to be able to do something. And seeing all this money that my father was losing, I couldn't bear to just sit in a hotel room and just watch as we might lose everything in our house.
And so, I had my brother watch my little sister, Lauren. I went down to the casino. It's a very strange thing for a teenage girl, and it was before I even had my first job as a diner waitress at 13. So, it started when I was really nine or 10 and went up until the late teenage years. We could go down to these casinos. And so, I wanted to find my father and talk some sense into him. I don't know what I thought it would do.
But he was at that point, I quickly discovered at the blackjack table, and completely incoherent. He was drinking too much and losing so much money, and there was nothing I could do to stop him. So, I realized that I had to take things into my own hands. And I realized that all the waitresses at the casinos, I don't know why, they weren't really incentivized to serve people. I'm not sure why.
Kerry Diamond:
They weren't incentivized to provide hospitality?
Victoria James:
Yeah, they didn't really care. I think that working in a place like that must be quite awful. So, someone thought I worked there. There was this guy who asked me to get him another drink, maybe because I looked so out of place. And I was a very obedient child and I said, "Of course." And so, I went to the bar, this lady, and asked her for another cocktail for this guy, bring it to him. And then, he gave me a chip. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I just made money, he just gave me a casino chip," which was a lot of money.
Kerry Diamond:
A chip for $100.
Victoria James:
Yeah. When you're that age, that's like you've won the lottery. And so, then, there was this guy next to him and he was like, "Oh, I need a refill, too." And so, I was essentially just running drinks, and the ladies all thought it was hilarious. They thought it was very cute. I didn't write about that, too, but they actually would also give me chips, too. Maybe they felt bad for me.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a very darkly comic part of the book.
Victoria James:
Yeah. Even just in retrospect, it seemed so realistic at the time and almost like not a big deal. But now, looking back and having my own daughter, thinking about a 10, 11, 12-old-girl doing this in a casino just blows my mind. So, I was running drinks and it kind of was my first ever job. I was the drink girl. I would run people their cocktails in casinos.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. So, clearly, you did not grow up around fine wine. We've more or less established that. Yet, at the age of 21, you somehow managed to become the youngest sommelier in America. I'd love to know, how did you fall in love with wine, and how did you become so knowledgeable so fast?
Victoria James:
Yeah, it was through restaurants that I fell in love with wine. I started after being a drink girl at casinos. I got my first job in restaurants at a greasy spoon diner under the railroad tracks in New Jersey at 13. And just really, I was driven mostly monetary to begin. I wanted money. We didn't have any at home, and I wanted sneakers without holes in the bottom. I wanted the cool jeans that all the girls in my class did. And so, I got a job and quickly realized that I really found my place here.
I think Anthony Bourdain talks about this, but the restaurant world is full of misfits and weirdos and pirates and people that don't quite belong in other corners of society. And I really felt like I belonged there, and I loved the people. I loved working with people that were so much older than me. And I just loved it. So, I progressed from diners to bartending during college and, from there, quickly realized, to your point, I knew nothing about wine.
I found this dusty, old copy of Wine for Dummies behind the register at the bar I was working at. It almost did feel like fate, like you find this Jumanji book or something. And so, I opened it and really, I guess I never realized before that wine was this whole world, that it could represent centuries of tradition and people and these incredible winemaking practices. It blew my mind. To me, wine had always seemed quite boring. And, of course, alcohol, I had so many issues with my father and struggling with my own things. But I didn't realize it could have purpose and it could be an ingredient in a good meal. And I fell in love with pairing.
And so, I dropped out of college to study wine and become a sommelier. It was something I knew I wanted to do as soon as I learned it was even a thing and how to pronounce sommelier, that took a while, but I wanted to become that right away. And so, I just pursued it like a college degree. And when I was 21, became certified as a sommelier. And I remember when I got my pin and my diploma, they're like, "Wow, you're definitely the youngest in the country by a long shot." And it was just a really wild moment.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any idea that you were the youngest?
Victoria James:
I always was the youngest person in every room, but there are people who have been sommeliers before that are quite young. Even in the book, I talk about it. Ironically, my husband became one when he was working in Oregon. He was foraging for mushrooms and working at a restaurant. And he went in for a position to be a cook at a restaurant. And they said, "We don't need a cook, but we need a sommelier." And he said, "Well, I'm 20 and I don't know anything about wine." And they said, "That's fine. You'll learn." And this is the Willamette Valley in the early 2000s, so I think people have certainly done it before, but maybe not to the level I did at that time.
Kerry Diamond:
You were part of a group that exposed inappropriate and sexist behavior going on in the world of wine. And it took way longer for the MeToo Movement to reach that world. You write about this a lot in the book. Why do you think that was?
Victoria James:
I think because it's such an old-world society. Even still to this day, even though a lot's changing, it is the definition of an old boys' club. And it's elite, it's hard to get into. It costs a lot of money to become a sommelier. You have to try a lot of wine that's very expensive. The courses are very expensive. And so, it just unfortunately has seemed to be only for a while for this very privileged subset of older white men. And so, it was very hard to break into.
And anyone who tried, I felt myself, a lot of other female sommeliers, well, you could get into this industry, but it came at a certain price. And we were constantly sexualized and belittled and abused. And no one really was talking about it, and it's really one of the reasons I was so passionate to write this book. Because whenever I would talk about this sort of stuff happening, everyone would say, "It's not that bad in the wine world. Come on, it's not like that. There's no crazy things happening."
Honestly, Kerry, it wasn't until I wrote my book and it came out that this whole thing just exploded. So, I remember a couple weeks after the book came out, everyone was home in the pandemic and they had tons of time to read. And women all over the industry were sending me messages on Instagram and social media. Within a couple of weeks, I received thousands of messages. It was insane. And so, myself and Jane Lopes, who's also a sommelier who I worked with and wrote about in the book, and Liz Dowty, started compiling all these stories.
And I had worked before with Julia Moskin at The Times for another story about a sommelier she wrote. She was trying to, for so long, prove that it wasn't just one bad egg. Because when she wrote that story about that one specific sommelier in October of 2019, everyone said, "Well, it was one bad egg. Oh, it's just Mario Batali. It's just one person." But what I was trying to show was that, no, it wasn't one bad egg. It's the entire industry is like this. But she needed more, and so we collected all these stories.
I remember we had this Google Document. It was called Operation Girl Power. And we were just collecting everyone's stories. We're not journalists. We're not amazing, award-winning New York Times journalists like Julia, so we passed this along to her and we said, "Hey, do you think you can do something with this?" And she was like, "Yeah, definitely." And so, she's really wonderful, and she was very thorough. And she spoke with all of these women. Even though there were hundreds, unfortunately, only a few dozen wanted to come forward publicly, but a couple dozen was more than enough to show that there was this incredible pattern of abuse and more than just one bad egg.
And so, that happened in November of 2020. This groundbreaking article came out in The New York Times, front page of the food section. And many articles Julia wrote after that subsequently, and it changed our industry forever. So much so that the whole, entire board resigned. Many of these master sommeliers lost their credentials.
Kerry Diamond:
And when you say the board, you're talking about the Court of Master Sommeliers?
Victoria James:
Yes, exactly. And there's a newborn now, and I'm quite hopeful and I think we're finally seeing real change.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I can't thank you and all of those women enough, because it is not easy to come forward. I'm curious, what have you put into place at COTE, so as to improve life for the staff, so as not to repeat some of the things that you've gone through in the world of wine, in the world of fine dining?
Victoria James:
Yeah. That was super important for me, that the restaurant that we have is the exact opposite of everything we grew up in. And luckily, everyone who works at the company is very open to that. And Simon and the other partners, really, really, it's important to them. So, it's also great we have so many women in positions of power.
So, at our restaurant, the Director of Operations, Amy Zhou, who's also a partner, and then Cynthia Chang, who's our HR amazing leader, we all three are also the founders of Wine Empowered, our 501(c)(3) nonprofit that offers tuition-free wine classes to women and people of color in hospitality. And so, the three of us were all very passionate about this inclusivity and making a safe space.
So, at the restaurant COTE specifically, Amy came up with this really great system that's color-coded. And essentially, it's red, yellow, and green. We call it like a code blue. If anyone ever feels uncomfortable, they just call this code blue. They're instantly removed from the situation. A manager goes in and determines if the guest was being inappropriate, if they're being... Any sort of protected class, if they were being sexist, racist, et cetera. That's full stop. Hospitality ends as soon as that happens, and you leave the restaurant. And you have a security person that can escort you out.
So, it's just really important that there is zero tolerance for any kind of that behavior. And we still do that to this day. And the most important thing is people and protecting... We are responsible for our staff, and so it was really important to us that there is zero tolerance for any sort of behavior like this.
Kerry Diamond:
Victoria, you mentioned Wine Empowered. Can you tell us more about that and how people can participate?
Victoria James:
Yeah. So, Wine Empowered offers free wine education to people in hospitality that are people of color or women. And for us, it was really important to us that the people who are on the margins of this society, of this old boys' club, that we bring them inside and give them... The biggest barrier is, of course, education. As I mentioned, it's incredibly expensive. And also, it just doesn't feel inclusive.
When I was going through these schools and these programs, I was oftentimes the only woman in the room. And I know how that feels. And it doesn't feel good, and it doesn't feel as if you really get the full education and opportunity. And so, if someone wants to be a part of this, you can follow us on Instagram @wineempowered.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, let's talk about something fun. You just launched a glassware collaboration with Lenox, the legendary tabletop company. How did this come about?
Victoria James:
Yeah. Lenox approached me pre-pandemic a few years ago to create this stemware series. They had seen some interview I had done, and they just loved my story and wanted me to be a part of this new line. And I was incredibly honored. Lenox, they were the first ever tabletop company to design China for President Woodrow Wilson. They've done four presidents since then.
They have an incredible history, and I was incredibly honored. And I didn't want to just launch a product line. It's not really my thing, unless it was something I could really have complete control over. So, we came up with this agreement and they have just been so wonderful. It took us years to design, talking to different scientists and other wine professionals. And I'm really happy with what we finally came up with.
Kerry Diamond:
So, this was years in the making?
Victoria James:
Years in the making, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And thank you, I will call it stemware from now on. I've used the term glassware. I stand corrected. But I was so happy to learn about this collaboration, because a lot of people are afraid to speak up the way you did for fear of losing sponsorships and industry support. But Lenox wasn't scared off by you speaking your truth. I think that's amazing.
Victoria James:
They are an amazing company. And I think one of the reasons they wanted to work with me is because I wanted to stand up for what I believe in. And that's their value as well. A lot of women are very uncomfortable about coming forward because they think they will lose their sponsors, their jobs and-
Kerry Diamond:
Right, their livelihood.
Victoria James:
... their livelihood. I wish I could stand here and say, "Oh, don't worry about that. It all works out in the end." Because to be honest with you, it actually doesn't sometimes. And for some women, they do lose everything. And that's really unfortunate and terrible. But that's also why if you are in a position of power where you can speak up, you have to. And for me, that I knew of at the time, I was the only female sommelier that was also a partner at a Michelin-starred restaurant that had this power. And I couldn't just easily be fired. And my partners were on board. Not everyone has that. And it's why it's so, so important that if you can speak up, you should. Because I do empathize.
And when we were going through this New York Times article and this process, so many women did drop out. Because even some of their employers threatened them and told them that if they went forward, they would lose their job. And they have children, they have families. So, yeah, it still happens. It's not easy. So, if you can speak up, please do. But if you can't, hopefully, us sharing our stories will change the industry for everyone else.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Well, thank you again to Lenox. All right. Educate me, Victoria. Tell me about the stemware.
Victoria James:
Yeah. The stemware, again, I'm really excited about. They're beautiful. Also, Lenox have been around for so long, over 130 years, that they have these really, really great relationships with our manufacturers. So, they were able to produce these glasses that were light and ethereal, but are super competitive in terms of pricing. If you compare them to Zalto and RIEDEL's, they're really half the price of those. Which was important to me, because I'm about making things approachable to everyone.
So, it's super simple. There are two glasses, one for warmer regions, one for cooler regions. And why I chose not to do something that was great variety-specific or maybe red wine, white-wine specific, it's interesting because this is a secret that sommeliers know, but for some reason, not a lot of consumers in mainstream. The most important thing about wine, more important than anything else, is where it comes from.
There's this mystic notion called terroir in the wine world that is essentially the core of what a wine is, what shapes it, the sunshine. Of course, the weather, the people, the slope, the soil, all of these things make a wine what it is. It's why a Bordeaux doesn't taste like a Burgundy, doesn't taste like a German Riesling, a Barolo. Because they all have this sense of terroir. But if we want to get super geeky, I can make 500 wine glasses and there's going to be one for every region in the world. But that's not what I'm about, so I wanted to simplify.
So, what are the two things that really separate everything? It's cooler regions and warmer regions. Because in cooler regions, you have elevated levels of acidity, you have lower levels of alcohol, body and richness. And you sometimes have much more delicate aromas. In warmer regions, to oversimplify, you have usually higher levels of alcohol and body and richness, more ripeness. Sometimes much more overt aromatics and sometimes lower acidity. So, separating these two in the two camp, simplifying it, let the somm do the work.
Essentially, these two glasses are for everything; red, white, rosé, sparkling. It's all you need on your table, and they are also beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
They are very beautiful. Is it true that somms don't love drinking sparkling out of flutes?
Victoria James:
Yeah, it's a fun fact, actually. Flutes are great because they do preserve the bubbles. There's less surface area, less exposure to oxygen, so the bubbles really last for longer. So, if you want your wine extra bubbly for a longer period of time, then maybe flutes are your go-to option. However, for me, champagne's expensive. And so, if you buy a bottle, you really want to appreciate it. And the only way to do that is to be able to really smell it.
90% of taste is actually smell. I don't know if you've tried to put your nose into a flute and swirl, but it is impossible. You'll get some everywhere, up your nose maybe. And so, the best thing is always a wine glass with an actual bowl in it. If you go to the Champagne region, we'll actually serve it in this as well. I prefer the wine glass, but there's a time and place for everything.
Kerry Diamond:
So, I'm a big rosé drinker during the warmer months. Which glass do I drink my rosé out of?
Victoria James:
So you know, Kerry, I'm a huge rosé fan. My first book was on rosé, and I just absolutely love it. It's the best thing ever. Also, fun fact, if you go to a restaurant and you don't want to spend a lot of money, but still get a high-quality wine, you can get rosé.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, good tip.
Victoria James:
They're always going to be much more affordable. Sometimes, there's crazy exceptions. But anyway, what glass to drink your rosé out of? So, the cool thing about my stemware is that there's cool region and warm region. So, if you're drinking a rosé from the Loire Valley in France, that's going to be a cooler region. If you're drinking a Napa Valley rosé, that's going to be warmer, and you want it in that glass.
It's funny, actually. The first book I did on rosé, I did a test. So, I blindfolded a group of sommeliers, master sommeliers, wine buyers at Jean-Georges and Danielle, and I had them try and tell the difference between red, white, and rosé. And none of them could tell the difference.
Kerry Diamond:
Really?
Victoria James:
Which is crazy. So, color only matters to a certain extent. It really is the structure of a wine, the acid, alcohol, body sweetness, and tannin that matters the most. And that is what is developed by climate.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a fun test.
Victoria James:
Yeah, you have everything. And some people are also like, "Well, I don't know if the wine I'm drinking is from a warm region or a cool region. I don't really know. What does this count as?"
Kerry Diamond:
We'll just share your phone number, so they can text you when they're-
Victoria James:
You can share my phone number, they can text me. But also, just try it in both glasses. We did that the other night here at COTE Miami. And we poured in Albariño from Spain because one of the sommeliers were like, "Well, this could be cool region, this could be warm region." And we tried it and it was infinitely more delicious in the cool region glass. I mean, infinitely.
Even we asked a random person who didn't even work on our wine team, "Which wine glass would you want to drink out of?" And they're like, "This one, for sure." Because it just makes the wine smell so much better.
Kerry Diamond:
That is so interesting. Okay, and I'm asking this question for a friend. Is it ever acceptable to put an ice cube in your rosé?
Victoria James:
So, I actually did this the other day. On Sunday, we went to the beach here. And the rosé they served was super, super hot, so I put an ice cube in it. The best thing is just to stir it around, take it out. Yes, it does change the wine. It, of course, waters it down. But sometimes, it is a necessary evil.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You wouldn't stop talking to someone just because they did that?
Victoria James:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, Victoria, let's do the speed round. We always ask treasured cookbook, but I thought for you, it could also be a treasured beverage book.
Victoria James:
Well, I have one that's both, actually, and it is really treasured. I think it's out of print. It's not mine, it's my husband's. But I try to steal it as much as possible. It's called “Ten Vineyard Lunches” by Richard Olney, and I am a huge Olney fan. I absolutely adore him. He was friends with all the culinary elites. He dated James Baldwin. He had for lunch MFK Fisher and Julia Child and James Beard and Elizabeth David over for lunch all the time. So, I love that one.
And then, he also did another book called “Lulu's Provencal Table,” which is about Lulu Peyraud from Domaine Tempier, and I think also out of print. But honestly, it's just, it reminds me about why I got into wine. And I share some of these stories in the book. My book is not all dark and depressing. There are some fun scenes as well. And it's really why I love wine. It's the sense of place and its people. And it's this magic ingredient that can bring people together.
Kerry Diamond:
Song that makes you smile.
Victoria James:
A song that makes me smile? I will have to say, well, Lyle and I for our wedding song, we had Sam Cooke's Wonderful World. So, that always makes me smile when it comes on.
Kerry Diamond:
Last pantry purchase.
Victoria James:
I'm addicted to salt, full-blown addiction, and so I always have to have a little Maldon Salt in my bag. And we just got to the apartment here in Miami, the corporate company apartments, and there was no salt. So, we ran out, and we had to buy some Maldon.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, favorite kitchen tool.
Victoria James:
My favorite food is eggs. I think it's the most perfect food, and so I have this amazing tool that my husband got for me that cracks the egg in the egg cobbler perfectly. So, you can remove the top and have the perfect soft-boiled egg.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite food smell.
Victoria James:
There's nothing better than fresh citrus. When you're peeling an orange and that fresh citrus smell, it's transporting.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?
Victoria James:
I love reading, but I also love cinema. I love television and movies. I just love all things. We recently watched a couple nights ago this Argentinian film from 2014 called “Wild Tales,” which tells different stories of revenge. And it's magical realism and I loved it. So, highly recommend.
Kerry Diamond:
Dream travel destination.
Victoria James:
Definitely something not wine related, because I feel like I'm always going to wine regions, which is beautiful, too. But Madagascar. Also, a huge fan of butterflies. I would be a lepidopterist if I wasn't a sommelier. And studying the different species of butterflies is one of my passions. And that's where the largest population of different types of butterflies live, so I would go there.
Kerry Diamond:
And last question, if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Victoria James:
Well, so cliche. I would also say Richard Olney, because I know that he would bring all of the Illuminati of the food and wine world. So, I do want to hang out also with Julie Child and MFK Fisher and Craig Claiborne and Elizabeth David and James Baldwin and such. So, I know he would also bring all the hot gossip as well and cook these amazing feasts, and we would drink this amazing wine. And we would forage together and it would be great.
Kerry Diamond:
I love it. Well, Victoria, I also love you. I'm just filled with so much admiration for you. And I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for women and for this industry, and for taking the time to talk with me today.
Victoria James:
Thank you so much for your time.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to subscribe to Radio Cherry Bombe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave a rating and a review. Let me know what you think about the show and your ideas for future guests. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt, our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening everybody. You are the Bombe.