Janet & Jennifer Zuccarini Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City.
Today's guests are two amazing sisters, Janet and Jennifer Zuccarini. Janet is the CEO of the Gusto 54 Restaurant Group. She is a star restaurateur with 12 restaurants in Toronto and a handful in L.A., including the popular Felix restaurant. We'll list all of Janet's places in the show notes in case you'd like to visit. Janet is also a judge on “Top Chef Canada.” The new season of the show just started yesterday, by the way. Good luck to all the chefs competing for the top prize. Jennifer Zuccarini is the founder and CEO of Fleur du Mal, the buzzy lingerie and ready-to-wear line worn by the likes of Dua Lipa, Doechii, and Tate McRae, just to name a few fans. Jennifer recently opened a shop in Williamsburg and is about to move her Manhattan Fleur du Mal flagship to a big new location. I can't wait for that. Jennifer and Janet grew up in Toronto, the daughters of a proud Italian immigrant and entrepreneur who hoped his daughters would take over the family business one day. Learn what happened when they decided to follow their dreams and carve their own paths, and how they wound up as success stories in their respective fields. As you're about to learn, entrepreneurship clearly runs in the family. Today is the third episode in our mini-series brought to you in partnership with Destination Canada. Over the past few weeks, we've been shining a spotlight on some of our favorite Canadians. Speaking of Canada, I hope those of you who celebrated Canadian Thanksgiving this past weekend or on Monday had a wonderful holiday. Stay tuned for my conversation with Janet and Jennifer Zuccarini.
Today's show is presented by Destination Canada. I first discovered Canada when I was 18 years old and going to college in upstate New York, just an hour outside of Montréal. I couldn't believe this beautiful, exciting city was so close by. I visited every chance I got. My favorite thing to do was dance at the best new wave club in town and end the night with poutine at an after-hours diner. My tastes have changed a bit since then, although I still love new wave music and poutine. And luckily, Canada has grown with me. I've returned to Montréal several times and visited Vancouver and Toronto, too. Today, Canada is a place where I can find everything I want, especially when it comes to culture, connection, and authenticity, and its landscapes and people. From indigenous ceremonies, to Québécois winter carnivals and Caribbean parades, to Lunar New Year celebrations. Culture in Canada is as rich and diverse as its people. Each region reflects a unique blend of traditions, languages, and stories rooted in the land. One great example of this is Christa Guenther of Feast Café and Bistro in Winnipeg. She's an indigenous chef bringing ancestral recipes to the table in delicious modern ways. Canada invites you to experience its incredible culture through nature, storytelling, and community. Start planning your visit today at canadanaturally.com.
A little housekeeping: planning for our Jubilee 2026 conference in New York City is underway. It's taking place on Saturday, April 25th, at the Glasshouse. If you've been to Jubilee in New York before, you know what an incredible day it is. Amazing speakers, food and drink, and community. This year's featured Gloria Steinem. Yes, the icon herself. Caroline Chambers, Asma Khan, all the way from London, and 1000 attendees. Jubilee is one of the biggest gatherings of women in the food and drink space in the U.S., if not the biggest, and we would love to see you there. Visit cherrybombe.com for early bird tickets and more info. If you're an official Bombesquad member or a Substack subscriber, check your inbox for a special discount. If you're new to Jubilee, check out our Instagram feed for a taste of what Jubilee is all about.
Now, let's check in with today's guests. Jennifer and Janet, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Janet Zuccarini:
Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
Super first podcast together, which is so much fun. Have you done many interviews together?
Janet Zuccarini:
No, weirdly, we haven't.
Kerry Diamond:
I was trying to find them. I mean, I can see how you two support each other because I saw a lot of pictures of you, Janet, wearing Fleur du Mal.
Janet Zuccarini:
I mean, is there anything else I should be wearing or anyone should be wearing other than Fleur du Mal?
Kerry Diamond:
It's nice to have a supportive sister. And do you eat in a lot of Janet's restaurants?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Always, but unfortunately, there's not one in New York yet. But that's why I love going home to Toronto, because Janet has 12 restaurants there, so I really only eat at her restaurants.
Kerry Diamond:
Amazing. I had a few, I no longer have restaurants, but just hearing 12 restaurants just makes me want to break out in a cold sweat. When Jennifer said you don't have a restaurant in New York yet, either you have a really good poker face or you have no plans to open your ...
Janet Zuccarini:
I don't have any plans. It was originally in the plans before COVID hit, so it's a bit of a sore spot because I had all these great plans before COVID. And then, COVID turned my life upside down and the world's lives, everyone's lives upside down, so yeah, we were going to open a Felix in New York City, which is a restaurant in Los Angeles.
Kerry Diamond:
This has nothing to do with ... Well, maybe it has to do with restaurants and a little bit of what Jennifer does, but it has nothing to do with Canada. I rewatched the final season of “Sex and the City” last night. It's 20 episodes.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Do you mean the original?
Kerry Diamond:
Yes.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
The original “Sex in the City.”
Kerry Diamond:
Season six. It dawned on me this morning. You two were probably leading very “Sex and the City” lives during that time period.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
1998 to 2004.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I moved to New York in 2001 at the height of “Sex and the City.” I've re-watched the show, not every episode, but I love going back to the earlier seasons. Those are my favorites, but when I first moved here, it was also when Soho House had just opened, and I remember going to the rooftop at Soho House when it was the place to be in New York, and Candace Bushnell was there, at a table with champagne everywhere and a seafood platter. I don't know. She was embodying everything that “Sex and the City” was and we're like, "Oh my God, there she is."
Kerry Diamond:
That was a perfect thousand in one sighting.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. And Candace Bushnell, I hope you all know, wrote “Sex and the City” and inspired the whole series.
Janet Zuccarini:
Did you watch the reboot, though?
Kerry Diamond:
I can't even get into it. The reason I went back and watched the last season was because I was so deeply disappointed by the reboot.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, you had to regain your faith. But I love Sarah Jessica Parker.
Kerry Diamond:
So do I.
Janet Zuccarini:
I so love her.
Kerry Diamond:
I love her so much. It kills me to say a bad word about anything she's involved in because she really is ... I don't know if you two have dealt with her, but she really is the nicest human being. Maybe not to you. Wait.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
No, no, she's amazing. No, I have a funny story.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, you two are laughing. I was like, "Oh, maybe that wasn't your experience." Who's going to tell it.
Janet Zuccarini:
I was a finalist to be an orphan in the Broadway “Annie,” when Sarah Jessica Parker was Annie. So I flew up from Toronto. It was such a big deal, and Jennifer came. Jennifer was three years old. Came to New York with me and we were at the auditions and Sarah Jessica Parker was there and she was in her costume, dressed as Annie. And we were so excited auditioning and going to meet her, and I went up to her and I said, “This is such a thrill.” And then Jennifer, who was just the most adorable three-year-old you've ever seen with blonde curly hair. And she grabbed onto Sarah Jessica Parker's dress, and then, Sarah Jessica Parker said, “Does she belong to you? Tell her to stop touching my dress.” And so, I think she became much nicer. Well, she was like 13.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
But I think I had my ... I used to have this Snoopy autograph book. I think I had that ready for her to sign it.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh. Okay. We're just going to give a moment of grace to a 13-year-old Broadway star-
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
Couldn't have been easy. Do you want to belt a few notes for us now?
Janet Zuccarini:
Definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
Will the sun come out tomorrow?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
You couldn't hit the high C.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. I faked the audition. There was a singing teacher who told me, if you can't hit high C, you'll never make it anywhere. So I made it to the finals. I'm on Broadway, and then I was trying to fake the high C. and then they called me out into the middle of the stage like, Janet, can you hit a high C?
Kerry Diamond:
Moment truth.
Janet Zuccarini:
Then tried hard and then exited stage left.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you cry, or were you a tough kid?
Janet Zuccarini:
I mean, I was disappointed. How exciting for a young girl from Toronto to-
Kerry Diamond:
You couldn't be an orphan?
Janet Zuccarini:
I was auditioning to be an orphan. I wasn't ... I definitely wasn't any material-
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. I thought you were.
Janet Zuccarini:
I wasn't even an orphan material.
Kerry Diamond:
But I bet you know every word to every song.
Janet Zuccarini:
Oh my God. Yes. “Annie?” No question.
Kerry Diamond:
Janet, were you a child star up in Toronto?
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, I was a child actress, definitely not a star, but I did a lot of commercials and when I was doing commercials starting at the age of four, there was no unions. They would work me 12 hours a day and I quickly got the reputation of being able to work 12-hour days and not complain.
Kerry Diamond:
You were a tough four-year-old.
Janet Zuccarini:
You know what, it showed the work ethic, I think back then, and I just got hired a lot. The kid who shuts up and works for 12 hours hire her and I just did a ton of commercials. Commercials, and some little movies, plays.
Kerry Diamond:
And did your mom kind of nudge you or dad nudge you into this or were you that kid who was like, I want to do this?
Janet Zuccarini:
Well, no. My mother ... As a four-year-old, she pushed us, all of us. We did a little bit of ... Jennifer did a little bit. Our sister Jackie did a little bit. And I just had that quality, which is being a ham. I definitely had the ham material, which doesn't age well. People say, “Why didn't you continue being an actress?” And I was like, “I was just a ham.” That's all I had in me.
Kerry Diamond:
Aged ham, this is why I'm a food person. My brain immediately went to prosciutto.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big leg of prosciutto now.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you a ham?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Probably not.
Kerry Diamond:
You're not? Okay.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
That wasn't me.
Kerry Diamond:
And you are still a ham?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Am I still a ham?
Kerry Diamond:
No, no. Yeah, are you?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I mean, toned down a little bit, but Janet was like the funny ... My mom labeled us all. That's what you are.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
They're like, Janet is the actress. She's the one with the personality.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. I was the one with the personality that-
Kerry Diamond:
Thanks, mom. Did she say you had no personality?
Janet Zuccarini:
No, she is.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
But she said I was ... Well, I was the cute one.
Kerry Diamond:
You're the pretty, the cute one. And how about your other sister?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Smart one?
Kerry Diamond:
The smart one. We'll be right back. This Saturday, don't miss the Great Community Bake Sale, set to be New York City's largest and most impactful charity bake sale yet. Hosted by Cherry Bombe cover girl and star baker Natasha Pickowicz in collaboration with Care of Chan. The event will bring together over 100 of New York City's best bakers and pastry chefs, plus a few folks from out of state, all under one roof. Sample treats from viral bakeries like From Lucie, Elbow Bakery, Hani’s, and Radio Bakery, alongside food media personalities whose baked goods you cannot get your hands on, like Sophia Roe, Carla Lalli Music, Hailee Catalano, and our very own Jessie Sheeha,n who hosts our baking podcast, She's My Cherry Pie. Buy as many tickets as you like. Each $10 voucher is redeemable for one baked good. Together, up to 20,000 baked goods will be sold, all to benefit four local nonprofits: Heart of Dinner, Make the Road New York, One Love, Community Fridge, and The Teaching Kitchen at Lenox Hill Neighborhood House. Snag your tickets at Eventbrite. The link is in our show notes.
Have you checked out Cherry Bombe on Substack yet? If not, click the link in our show notes or head to cherrybombe.substack.com, and discover what Substack is all about. It's a media platform where you can find all your favorite writers on whatever topics you love, food, fashion, news, et cetera. On Cherry Bombe’s Substack, we've got articles from the recent issue of Cherry Bombe magazine, like our Missy Robbins and Nancy Silverton cover stories, great recipes, events, news, our Friday newsletter, and more. You can sign up for free or become a monthly or annual paid subscriber, which gets you special perks like discounts to events, including Jubilee. If you love Cherry Bombe, you'll love our Substack. I subscribed to a lot of stacks and love the platform. Check it out and send me an email or a DM. I would love to know what you think.
So your mom was from Germany, dad was from Italy. What was it like growing up? Did you have a very Canadian upbringing, whatever that means, or was it very influenced by your parents' backgrounds?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I would say we grew up in a very multicultural environment. Everyone I went to school with, everyone I grew up with, their parents were immigrants, pretty much everybody. So I feel like where we grew up in Toronto was not necessarily being Canadian, but Canadian in a way that it was so multicultural. I feel like growing up in Toronto at that time, people would be like, “What's your background?” That was the number one question, because one was like, "Oh, I'm Canadian." I say I'm Canadian now that I'm here in New York, but I'm only there Canadian by birth.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting. Same for you, Janet?
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, very much children of immigrants, that was a certain type of upbringing that I think people related to, if you had ... if you were first generation, you felt that ... Our father was very Italian, thick Italian accent. Our father brought the first espresso machine to Canada.
Kerry Diamond:
Which I cannot believe.
Janet Zuccarini:
We have to slip that in. You're probably going to-
Kerry Diamond:
Your dad has had so many firsts. The first espresso machine. I mean he could have started Starbucks first wood-fired pizza oven.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, you did your homework. Love that.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, that's pretty incredible.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. He also had the first heated patios, outdoor patios in Toronto, which is much needed.
Kerry Diamond:
That's amazing.
Janet Zuccarini:
Pioneer in 1954.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about food growing up. Who cooked, and did your dad's Italian culture prevail in the house?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yes, because my mother was German and my father really did not like German food. Once a month or every few months, my mom would make sauerkraut and dumplings or ribs, and dumplings. And my father would always complain about it, but that would be her one ... It was pretty much mostly Italian.
Kerry Diamond:
Did your mother learn to cook Italian?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Through my father-
Kerry Diamond:
Or your dad cooked?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
She can cook her 10 things that she makes and she learned, I think all of them from our father. He was actually a good cook, but my mom would not let him cook in the kitchen. Really? She was very particular about who was in the kitchen.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting.
Janet Zuccarini:
Our father taught her and yeah, our father was just an excellent cook.
Kerry Diamond:
What we're mom's specialties? You said she had 10 things. Do you remember some of them?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
My mom, she's very funny. She takes a long time to prepare one thing, so growing up, sometimes we would just have green beans and potatoes for dinner and that was it, and we would take her all day to make that. I'd go to a friend's house and they would have many dishes and I was like, "Wow. I went to Linda's house and they had salad, and chicken, and potatoes." And my mom would be like, "How did they do that?" I'm like, "I don't know," but my mom would just make a big thing of cauliflower, but she'd mostly make steak because my father ate that every night, pretty much.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so funny. Didn't your dad own a steakhouse?
Janet Zuccarini:
The Sidewalk Cafe was a cafe, a wood-burning piece of a pizzeria, then a steakhouse on the third floor.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I didn't actually know that.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm happy to teach you that. So you had a lot of steak, did you two-
Janet Zuccarini:
We had a steak and pasta. She would make great red sauce.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Lasagna, she made a really good lasagna.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
A saltimbocca, that was one of her signature dishes.
Kerry Diamond:
That must've taken all day. Yeah, that was a good one.
Janet Zuccarini:
Everything had to be a one-pot meal, and if that meant vegetables, it was going to be vegetables, but showing up in one-
Kerry Diamond:
You two are literally the first two to come on the show and say that about your childhood meals and upbringing. Did you two cook? Were you allowed to go in the kitchen and help?
Janet Zuccarini:
Not at all in our home. You did cooking on your own, a little bit, Jennifer?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Janet Zuccarini:
When I was 18, I moved to Italy and then I would start calling my mother to get some of the recipes, “Let me get the recipe for the red sauce,” and let me start making pasta, and I started cooking at home a lot. Then, I started entertaining a lot. I didn't have a lot of money when I was a university student in Rome, so I just started having friends over. Friends started to compliment me on my cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
That's exciting.
Janet Zuccarini:
That's where it started, where I was like, "Maybe I have a little knack here."
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Did any Canadian food slip its way in?
Janet Zuccarini:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
It was-
Janet Zuccarini:
At school.
Kerry Diamond:
Italian household. At school? Such as ...
Jennifer Zuccarini:
At lunch, I would eat fries and gravy. Toronto, we don't eat poutine. It's not popular there.
Kerry Diamond:
What's the word, Québécois? Yeah, Québécois thing.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
But we'd eat the most unhealthy ... That's what I get-
Kerry Diamond:
Fries and gravy sounds great to me right now.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah, fries and gravy, that was it.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, you were used to the one thing at home, so I wouldn't be surprised that you would only have fries for lunch, right? How about you, Janet? Any Canadian things you remember?
Janet Zuccarini:
Restaurants, I guess.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
No, not Canadian, and our mother used to ...
Janet Zuccarini:
This is so bad. Just everyone would have these elegant little sandwiches and our mother, it would be very Italian style, like half a block of cheese and prosciutto or something and on half a loaf of bread and I would be so embarrassed pulling that out. You're kind of embarrassed of your culture when you're going to school and why can't I have a nice little white bread and tuna salad like everybody else? No, I would just take that sandwich for lunch.
Kerry Diamond:
I read somewhere that your dad was kind of disappointed to have three daughters and no sons. Is that true?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
That's true. I think it worked in our favor because not having sons made him very invested in us being the children that were going to take over his business. So he wanted a son to take over the family business and he didn't get that. So he really treated us a bit more like boys in a way. He was like, "You have to work." His philosophy was to be an entrepreneur. That was the only way to go. Don't work for somebody, start your own company. And really, really, all he wanted in life was for us to take over the family business. That's all he wanted. That's it.
Kerry Diamond:
Because I was wondering if it was nature versus nurture, but he really nurtured you to become entrepreneurs and not work for somebody else.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
And we all had to work ... I mean, from when I was eight years old, I had to go in and work at his office, which I really hated, but I had to do it ... I had no choice. I was forced to go do that.
Kerry Diamond:
So your dad got out of the restaurant business and opened a wholesale business and started selling or leasing.
Janet Zuccarini:
The importing and distributing. Yeah, importing espresso machines and restaurant equipment from Italy and distributing it across Canada. When I would work for him, when we would work for him, we would be selling espresso machines to restaurants, to hotels, so I had that exposure of selling to restaurateurs, let's say.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you go to Italy? Did you know you were going to come back and work for your dad?
Janet Zuccarini:
I promised him that I would. I said, "Please just let me go do some ... let me live in Italy." And then with the promise that if he would cover some of the costs of school, that I'd come back and work for him. But as very young children, we would go to work, our friends would be going up to their ... what we call cottages and it would be like, the cottage country in Ontario is what the Hamptons are in New York. And my friends would be going up to their cottages and we'd be showing up and working and dealing with people and they're like, why am I dealing with this kid?
I'm selling an espresso machine. But it was all good training and work ethic. I hated it, but you look back and you appreciate it.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, my parents always made me get a job, and looking back, I'm like, thank goodness, because it kind of made me who I am today. You went to Italy though for eight years, didn't you?
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. I went to-
Kerry Diamond:
That was a long time to get away.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. I did my undergrad, I traveled for one year, then I lived in Milano for some time and then, I went back and I did my undergrad in business. Then I did my master's in business, and so I ended up being eight years. Any excuse to ride around in my Vespa and smoke cigarettes in the classroom.
Kerry Diamond:
My god, I want to see those photos.
Janet Zuccarini:
In the good old days.
Kerry Diamond:
The few photos, we had no social media. So I know you look back and only got a few photos of those times. And when did you squeeze in becoming a certified ... I'm not going to say the word right-
Janet Zuccarini:
Pizzaiola. It was after I opened up my first restaurant in Nervosa.
Kerry Diamond:
So you had a restaurant.
Janet Zuccarini:
It was after that and it was not having a consistent product. And whenever I'm in my business thinking how can I improve on this? And then I was like, let me learn. How are you going to really teach people unless you know.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you go back to Italy to get certified?
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You all need to know this. Janet was the first certified female pizza maker in all of Canada.
Janet Zuccarini:
Well, yeah, in this association, which is the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana, it's a known program where you get certified to make a very strictly ... All the strict rules of making a Neapolitan pizza. So I went through that and they told me, I was the first female Canadian to get certified there.
Kerry Diamond:
I believe it.
Janet Zuccarini:
So I'm going to take that at their word.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, so maybe there were some other women making pizza in Canada.
Janet Zuccarini:
Listeners, comment if you know someone who got certified at the AVPN.
Kerry Diamond:
You could fact-check us folks. But that is remarkable because folks might not realize this, there's so many incredible women making pizza now, but it's still a field dominated by guys. It's like sushi. There's so few women who are official sanction makers of sushi. Did you know that you were unique in that respect?
Janet Zuccarini:
Definitely male-dominated, but when you look at the Pizzaioli in Italy, it's a job that nobody ever leaves. It pays very well. You will have children. Your son will work in that pizzeria, take over from you. You will retire, you will work your entire life as a Pizzaiola. And each little pizzeria in Naples, they typically will make about 300 pizzas a day. In the certification process at the end, you go work in a pizzeria. So I was put in a pizzeria in Naples. I remember I was wearing a Cartier watch and the guy's in Italian going, "You walk around the street wearing that watch, they're going to kill you. They're going to kill you for that watch. Take it off." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, okay."
Kerry Diamond:
Casual, making your pizza with your Cartier watch.
Janet Zuccarini:
And then, the men would come in and order a pizza and I would have to make the pizza. And every single time, 100% of the time, they said not by her, she's not making my pizza. So then I had to tell everyone who ordered a pizza from me, if you don't like the pizza, I will refund you. I will refund you your money. But this is the only way that I'm going to actually get certified and get the practice. But they would just be not from her.
Kerry Diamond:
I have so many follow-up questions. How did you find someone to hire you or to go through the ... did you have to get an internship and go work-
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, I was an intern. They placed you?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. And were they welcoming to you?
Janet Zuccarini:
No, they just looked at me like, "Oh god, got a woman. Oh no." But then we had fun in the end when we got to know each other a little bit more and then, I was pretty good making the pizza.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh, do you have an Ooni or something at home now?
Janet Zuccarini:
I have a wood-burning pizza oven called Gozney.
Kerry Diamond:
You have a Gozney.
Janet Zuccarini:
Excellent brand.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your go-to pizza to make at home?
Janet Zuccarini:
It's always going to be a margarita for me. I like it. I like it, classic. I like a tomato sauce. I'll put buffalo mozzarella on it. Typically, I'll top it afterwards with a little prosciutto, like not cooked in the oven, and then arugula, dressed arugula. That's my order.
Kerry Diamond:
I love arugula on a pizza.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, me too.
Kerry Diamond:
And more prosciutto, the aged ham.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, I mean it all comes back to the aged ham.
Kerry Diamond:
So you do come back eventually, and you work for your dad. You meet these two guys, and they convince you to give them all your money and be a partner in the restaurant project, and your dad is pissed.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, exactly. I came back and as promised, worked for my father. I just felt, the hardest thing was working a nine-to-five job sitting in an office. Sitting in an office, yes, getting up, selling espresso machines. I was really unhappy and I was like, I cannot do this. These guys asked me to be a partner and really overnight I was in the restaurant business just like that and working 16-hour days and running around and that made my father upset to see me work that hard, the 16-hour days, but running around in a restaurant and talking to people and I thought it was so much fun. I loved it.
And when you connect with your passion, it doesn't feel like work, although it can be hard work. I recognized it was very hard work, but I also loved it.
Kerry Diamond:
We should note you were about 30 years old, you sell your condo and you have to move back in with your parents and your dad is-
Janet Zuccarini:
Into the one-pot meals. Is it green greens and potatoes, mom? Let's go.
Kerry Diamond:
And your dad does not approve of what you're doing. So that had to have been kind of challenging moment for you?
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah, the only saving grace is I was never home. I used it just go into my little bed, my little childhood bed and go to sleep and my days were 16 hours or so. I knew that everyone would get over it. My father didn't speak to me for about a year and then eventually came around and we really had a heart-to-heart and he said, I thought I created something great for you and I didn't want to see you work so hard. It was really something coming from love. And he was also angry. He's like, "Who's going to take over the family business?"
But people have to be left alone to discover their own path and their own happiness. And my father ... His father wanted my father to work on the farm, take over the farm and my father left the farm, left his little town in Abruzzo to go to Rome, then to go to London, then to come to Toronto. I said, "Your father wanted you to work on the farm and you left him very disappointed." And he goes, "Because I hate the farm." And then I said, "Well, I hate your business." Yeah, he couldn't believe it. I don't like your business. I like the restaurant business.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about the Toronto restaurant. Toronto, I have to remember not to say that second-
Janet Zuccarini:
Did Eden Grinshpan teach-
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I kind of knew that. I knew that beforehand, but you can kind of ... You do.
Janet Zuccarini:
I do.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Janet Zuccarini:
I like it. Jennifer likes to show off that she's living in New York. Now, you can always tell, I'm starting to say Toronto now too, because L.A. 10 years-
Kerry Diamond:
See, what was the Toronto restaurant scene when you had your first place?
Janet Zuccarini:
Lots of great Italian restaurants actually, because of the recent immigrants. You had very authentic Italian restaurants and Jamaican restaurants, Caribbean, Chinese. It was an authentic dining scene and probably room for things, bringing a little New York vibe there. I'm not saying I brought that there, but there was room for that where I felt like going to L.A., there was room for some more authentic, cool Italian restaurants. With Felix, we opened up and it was very popular when we opened up because I felt the gap was there where you had more recent immigrants in Toronto. So a little bit different, less trendy, more authentic I would say.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, we're going to pivot to Jennifer. You moved to Montréal to study fashion, right? What did you study?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I studied fine arts, art history, because I thought at that time maybe I wanted to be an art dealer.
Kerry Diamond:
So you didn't know early on you wanted to be a fashion designer?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I did. I knew I wanted to be a fashion designer from when I was eight years old. I started sketching. I actually took sewing lessons. My mom got me a sewing machine. I didn't know other extracurricular activities-
Kerry Diamond:
How did you know fashion was a thing? Were you buying fashion magazines?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
My mom would buy a lot of magazines, so I had exposure to all the fashion magazines and then at that time, I used to watch a lot of the fashion television shows.
Kerry Diamond:
My god, I knew you were going to say that.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
But at TV with Jeanne Beker, who we both know.
Kerry Diamond:
Jeanne Beker was the queen.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah, I never missed that style with Elsa Klensch.
Kerry Diamond:
My god. We had the same Saturdays.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah. Fashionphile, Tim Blanks, who was also ... He's Canadian and British or he spent a lot of time in Toronto. So I watched those shows and I was like, "Oh my God, this is what I want to do." And I loved John Galliano and Alexander McQueen and a lot of British designers at that time. That's what it said in my third grade, whatever, yearbook. I was like, I want to be a European fashion designer.
Kerry Diamond:
What was the Canadian fashion scene like?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
There's so many talented Canadian designers, but when I was growing up, I didn't know any because I was completely influenced by Europe and the U.S., but especially Canada and I think ... And the U.K. and London, Toronto, and London have a certain relationship, I think, so we had a lot of influence from that. Yeah, I was like, "I want to be a fashion designer." I started working in retail when I was 15, all those years, like fashion, fashion, fashion. But then I started to feel like, "Well, maybe I want to do something else." It felt almost like I wanted to think about doing something else for a minute.
And I read a book about art dealers at that time and I was like, I think I want to be an art dealer. I'm going to travel around the world, discover ... This is what in my mind, I thought it was, like travel around the world, discover artists, throw parties.
Kerry Diamond:
Sounded ... I guess if you're Larry Gagosian, that's what I was kind of thinking.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
That's what it is.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you find Montréal? Did you love Montréal? It's very different from Toronto.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I loved Montréal so much. I mean, I still look back at that as really one of the highlights of my life was living there. It was so fun.
Kerry Diamond:
What years were you there?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I was there in '96, so 2001.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a fun city, and such a beautiful city.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
It's a very cosmopolitan, small kind of like Amsterdam or great nightlife scene, restaurant scene, art scene. It's so fun. I mean, I wanted to leave eventually, but I had the best time there and I started working. I knew after I was getting to the end of my degree that I wanted to go back to fashion, so I started working for a Montréal designer and then, I applied to go to FIT and moved to New York.
Kerry Diamond:
Our famous fashion school here. Fast-forward a little, you co-found your first lingerie line called Kiki de Montparnasse. I remember, I mean that was such a big deal. I was working in magazines then and everybody just loved what you were doing. It was so sexy. Thank you. It was kind of the opposite of Victoria's Secret, which you would go on to work at. Why and how did you want to have your own lingerie line?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I think I was always thinking about starting my own brand and being in fashion and in my head, I had that singular focus and I think I always loved lingerie. It was always something I would get excited about because people that are into lingerie, they kind of collect it and I don't know, there's a very strong emotional connection with that category. So I loved it, but I didn't know that's what I was going to do. Ultimately, I thought I would have a fashion brand, but everything that I did was very inspired by lingerie and the designers I liked brought ... thinking about Alexander McQueen and Corsetry and all of that kind of, that was always there.
Jean-Paul Gaultier, which I still would love. I always had that influence and then Kiki was the first opportunity for me to express that. And when you do something that really resonates with you and feels like your calling, that's kind of what happened to me. It took me a while to get there, but then I was like, "Oh, this is my thing. This is my destiny in a way to build something in this world" and the lingerie, but also desire, that world fascinates me.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you sell Kiki?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
It was sold after I left a few years later.
Kerry Diamond:
And you left to go to Victoria's Secret? Is that the path?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yes, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you wind up at Victoria's Secret?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Kiki, we were three partners and then at some point ... Well, one of the partners who was my boyfriend at the time, had a falling out with the other partner. It was just kind of like a messy situation and honestly, I wasn't that happy there either. I wanted to do something else. I wanted to start my own brand. But Victoria's Secret reached out to me through a friend and I was like, "No, I don't want to do that."
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have to move to Columbus?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
No. So you worked for them here in New York? Yes, I worked for them here in New York, but I would travel to Columbus. I had to go there, there was a private plane that would fly there every day, like a bus. So we'd sometimes just go for the day for meetings, get on the plane and fly over and fly back. It was kind of amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you do for them?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I was the Design Director of Intimates.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a big gig.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
It was. I mean, there were other design directors, but I had my area that I was more on the sexier kind of-
Kerry Diamond:
Got it. You were doing the sexier stuff.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I wasn't doing the cotton underwear or anything, even though I love that. That was at the print department-
Kerry Diamond:
I hate to say this, those are prime Epstein years. When you were there.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
They were, but there was no zero talk of him. Zero. That wasn't a thing,
Kerry Diamond:
Right. Nobody knew. I mean, nobody knew.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
No, I didn't know until after I left.
Kerry Diamond:
No one knew except all those guys who contributed to the birthday book. Those guys knew.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
My God. Yeah, I was just looking at that. I actually didn't know about that until I left Victoria's Secret, and I was starting Fleur, and someone was talking about Jeffrey Epstein saying that I should meet with him to be an investor in my company… I know.
Kerry Diamond:
My God.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
And they're like, "Oh, well, he manages all of Les Wexner's money." And I didn't actually know that, while I was at Victoria's Secret. That wasn't something-
Kerry Diamond:
Thank God.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah, no, thank God.
Kerry Diamond:
That didn't happen.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thank God it didn't happen.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean that's one of the reasons I love what you're doing and all these women who have their own indie lingerie and intimates brands because it's like, "That's who I want to give my money to. I want to give it to you."
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You're like, yes, give me your money. But I'm just so proud of what you've done and the other women in the category.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thank you. No, I feel ... I just actually went to go look at a space on Madison and I met with the co-op of the building. There was a very older people that have been in the building for many years and they were like, "Oh, well this is not what we were expecting." And I was like, "What were you expecting?" I was expecting some old guys. I was like, "Oh, well here it is." This is ... Fleur is me.
Kerry Diamond:
And you've expanded the brand a lot, not just to different locations. You now have a Williamsburg location, so welcome to Brooklyn.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
But you do, I don't know, what's the term for it, like ready to wear, a day wear. It's not just lingerie and intimate stuff.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
We do a lot of ready-to-wear. Ready-to-wear, that's inspired by lingerie or somehow ties-
Kerry Diamond:
Still sexy.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Sexy. Yeah, sexy, like sensual, like celebrating sensuality desire, that's the way I think about it.
Kerry Diamond:
And what are your plans for the company? Do you think you'll sell it one day? Well, I know if you have investors, I learned that when we raised money that you have to think about your exit-
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Which is painful. I'm like, "Oh my God, you want your money back? I didn't know that."
Kerry Diamond:
It's like, "Wait, I want to run this until I drop dead." That's not an option?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah. It's funny, because I thought about it a certain way when I raised money, I really did think I would have it for a shorter period of time and sell it and then do something else. And now, that I've invested so much into it and it's such a part of my life that now I feel, "Well, why do I want to run away from this thing that I've spent all these years building?" And I don't want to start, if I started another brand, it wouldn't be in this space. But I do have investors, so it's something to ... Yeah, eventually probably there'll be some kind of transaction. But I love what I'm doing and I'm in a growth mode and I'm excited to continue building a Fleur and getting it out there even more.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you think you'll open in Toronto one day?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah, I think so, because actually, we have a lot of customers there. It's one of our top international cities, so it's in the top five, so yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that because of you?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I don't think so.
Kerry Diamond:
Or are they just sexy things up in Toronto? Is that your sister buying all the clothes up in Toronto?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah. It could be Janet's friends single-handedly ... I feel like people don't know I'm Canadian. And I always feel excited. I think when you leave Canada, you're very much like, well, I'm in New York and you meet somebody from Toronto and you're like, well, hey. But I'm in New York now. And no, when I meet somebody from Canada, I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm Canadian." And I'm so excited by it, but I feel more excited to share that I'm Canadian.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know what it is, but I feel like I know so many Canadians now in New York and I don't feel like I knew a ton of Canadians years ago. So I don't know if people were keeping it secret or there's just so much more Canadian pride now. Have you two had the opportunity to work together much? Have you collaborated?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I know what you do is so different.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Well, I used to work in Janet's restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
You did, which one?
Janet Zuccarini:
You were a server.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I was a server sometimes.
Kerry Diamond:
Very hot server.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I grew up working in after retail, I worked in bars and restaurants and clubs, because you made more money there. And so sometimes I would waitress at Janet's restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
Was she a good waitress?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Excellent.
Kerry Diamond:
That was not Janet answering, just FYI.
Janet Zuccarini:
You were excellent, and you brought a lot of men to the restaurant. Yeah, for sure. Everyone ... Because you're beautiful, sweet, great server.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thank you.
Janet Zuccarini:
And I was like, "Oh my God, if you could stay here. I was making so much more money with you there."
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Truly. Janet also once was like, "I need you to do me a favor. I need you to deliver a pizza to somebody else." And I was like, what? I was going out somewhere. I was like, I can't know. And you're like, I just need you to do this. It's for a very important customer. I'm like fun. So I remember going in my car, ringing the doorbell. Pizza delivered-
Kerry Diamond:
Before Uber Eats.
Janet Zuccarini:
Yeah. I mean, we have delivery.
Kerry Diamond:
I was joking. That's ... God. Uber Eats. You know what I wanted to ask? I said this to Eden as well. I know this is a cliche, but every Canadian I know is so nice and so, I don't know you, but I'm assuming you're nice. So everyone tells me you're amazing, but you I know and you're so nice.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And that's not standard in the fashion industry. I mean we love fashion, but not everybody's nice.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I know. It's the one thing I don't love sometimes when I go to certain fashion events and I'm like ... I mean, I'm used to it. So I don't really think about it now.
Kerry Diamond:
How about hospitality? It's so interesting that you're in Toronto and L.A. L.A. is known for great restaurants. You have some of the great ones, people can't even get into your restaurants, but L.A. is not really known for service and hospitality.
Janet Zuccarini:
True.
Kerry Diamond:
Toronto?
Janet Zuccarini:
More so? Definitely more so. And so, I think when I first went to L.A. in 2015, I met some people in the business and first lesson I was given is find people, find your managers, find your general manager like East Coast, New York, Chicago. And it's just more lackadaisical, I feel. If I'm going to generalize it, service is laid back, just like Californians are more laid back and we don't want that in hospitality. I find that difference when I ... Now I'm 10 years in L.A., but I go back to Toronto or New York and I'm like, "Wow, they're on it. Everyone's fast, everyone's alert."
And so it is a different vibe. It's a different vibe of service. So I'll try to a lot of times, bring people from Toronto or get some New York energy in the restaurants in L.A., because you want that. You just want to be taken care of.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. We're going to run out of time soon. I was like when I was writing all the questions, I'm like, "Oh my God, they're going to die when they see all the questions I sent over."
Janet Zuccarini:
Let's go back to “Annie,” I think a few more minutes we should ...
Kerry Diamond:
I know you've been on Joe Rogan. I feel like we could do a Joe Rogan and have you two on the show for three hours and not even scratch the surface. I'd really love for you each to come back individually because I have so many business questions for you. I really just admire what the two of you have built so much.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I mean, I admire what you've built. I love ... I'm such a fan of Cherry Bombe and everything that you've built.
Kerry Diamond:
That means a lot. And you're a pleasure to talk to, and you have a beautiful voice.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
That's important.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I like our little mutual admiration society here. I'm going to ask you one more question, because we do have to get out of here. I haven't been the candidate in a while. Where should I go?
Janet Zuccarini:
Well, I'm going to say come to Toronto and we'll take you on a tour of my restaurants.
Kerry Diamond:
My gosh.
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I'll have to do that.
Janet Zuccarini:
And we're going to go to Chubby's Jamaican. We're going to go to Kiin, which is royal Thai. We're going to give you a feeling of backpacker Thailand at PAI and Yorkville for some good Italian. We'll give you a tour of the restaurants
Jennifer Zuccarini:
I highly recommend.
Janet Zuccarini:
I think I need to come up for a week. We're going to do it. We're going to do three restaurants a day.
Kerry Diamond:
How about you? Where should I go? Exactly what Janet said?
Jennifer Zuccarini:
Well, I would definitely pick Toronto first because of Janet's restaurants and I feel like Kiin, the royal Thai restaurant. I ate there this year and it was my most memorable meal of the year. It's so special, so I love it there, but I would go to Montréal. I can get you a great list of restaurants there.
Kerry Diamond:
I would love that. I would love that. Well, you two are the Bombe. I love that you are such smart, sexy, supportive sisters.
Janet Zuccarini:
I was just ... It's so great that we could be here together and we've never done a podcast together or much together and we spend so much time traveling and hanging out, so this has been so much fun. Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, thank you both.
Janet Zuccarini:
Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I'll catch you all on Monday with our next episode. Thank you for listening. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is a studio engineer at Newsstand Studios. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu. Our editorial assistant is Brigid Pittman, and our head of partnerships is Rachel Close. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.