Kat Lieu Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Kat Lieu. Kat is a writer, recipe developer, cookbook author, and activist. She's the founder of the Modern Asian Baking Blog and of the Subtle Asian Baking community, which celebrates Asian flavors, cultures, and creativity through the art of baking. You probably know Kat from some of her viral recipes, like her mochi cookies, pandan milk bread, and black sesame chocolate cookies. But Kat had an entirely different career before she got into baking. She was a doctor of physical therapy for over 13 years and a certified lymphedema therapist. She launched the Subtle Asian Baking community online in 2020 during the pandemic in response to her cravings for the sweets and desserts of her childhood, as well as the uptick in anti-Asian hate. And since then, she has helped raise over $100,000 for Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month causes. Kat decided to leave her medical profession in 2022 to pursue her passion for baking full-time. She also published her first book, “Modern Asian Baking at Home,” that year. Last year, she was awarded the Toni Tipton-Martin Award from the IACP for her food writing. Kat joins me to talk about her incredible journey and also her brand new, gorgeous book, “108 Asian Cookies: Not-Too-Sweet Treats from a Third-Culture Kitchen.” We discussed the sweets and treats she enjoyed growing up in Brooklyn with her family, such as black sesame soup and steamed custards, and wait for it, rice crispy treats, and those she ate when visiting her grandparents over the summer in Montreal, like chiffon cake and cream puffs. And I loved learning about how these early sweet memories influenced the baker, Kat has become. Kat also walks me through the recipe for her crazy rich billionaire shortbread. It's her spin on millionaire shortbread with a nod to the very popular 2018 movie, “Crazy Rich Asians.” It has a pandan shortbread base topped with a layer of coconut caramel with curried peanuts and then a layer of chocolate ganache. Raspberries and gold leaf are optional final flourishes. I loved chatting with Kat, so stay tuned for our convo. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com.
We're having a short snack break with California Prunes, who helped make this episode possible. I always have a stash of prunes in my pantry because there's so much they can do. I love that prunes can satisfy your sweet tooth while being good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper, and antioxidants to support healthy bones. Wellness trends may come and go, but prunes aren't going anywhere. So why not chop up some prunes this weekend to fold into your favorite oatmeal cookie recipe? In mine, I combine them with M&Ms and potato chips for a cookie that has everything you'd ever want. It's chewy, crunchy, salty, sweet. Just talking about them makes me realize I need a cookie right now. Prunes are also a great natural sweetener in baking recipes. If you need any tips on sweetening with prunes, check out all the different ideas and recipes at the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. And I've got the inside scoop on a sweet contest our friends at California Prunes are hosting. Share your favorite recipe using California Prunes, whether it's an elaborate bake or a simple snack, for the chance to score hundreds of dollars in gift cards, kitchen gear, and swag. Just post your creation on Instagram or TikTok and tag @caprunes and @nocrumbsleft to enter. The contest runs from October 27th through November 17th. So get baking, get snacking, and good luck.
Peeps, did you hear the news? Jubilee New York 2026 is happening on Saturday, April 25th, at the Glasshouse in Manhattan, and early bird tickets are on sale now. Jubilee is Cherry Bombe's annual conference celebrating women and creatives in the world of food and drink. It'll be a beautiful day of connection and community, plus delicious bites and sips. You'll meet other thoughtful food folks and be inspired by the featured speakers, panelists, and more. I had such a great time at this past year's event and I know next year's will somehow be bigger and better. Early bird tickets are on sale now through December 31st. If you're an official bomb squad member or a paid Substack subscriber, be sure to use your discount code at checkout. You can find it in your inbox or on our Substack website. Head to cherrybombe.com for all the details. I hope to see you there.
Let's chat with today's guest. Kat, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk billionaire bars with you and so much more.
Kat Lieu:
Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
You were born in Canada to a Chinese mother from Hong Kong and a Chinese-Vietnamese father from Vietnam, but you were raised in Coney Island in Brooklyn. However, you spent your summers in Montreal with Amma and Yehyeh, your paternal grandparents. Can you tell us about the cake that you and Amma baked when you were about four-years-old for your fifth birthday?
Kat Lieu:
Yes. So Amma was not classically trained, but she grew up in Hanoi. And during French colonization, she actually learned a lot of French baking techniques. So she was the only baker that I knew growing up and where I had the opportunity to make chiffon cakes and learn how to make mooncakes with her during my summer spent in Montreal. And that was one of the most delicious birthday cakes I've ever had. And I don't think it can ever be repeated because maybe eggs just tasted or smelled better back then when she was whipping up the meringue for the chiffon. Maybe strawberries were more fresh, but she made that cake from scratch. And I was thinking about it for at least a month as a child. You're four-years-old turning five and all you could think about was that freshly baked chiffon cake that your grandma's going to make for you for your fifth birthday. So beautiful core memory for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know you were almost always with her during your birthday 'cause you visited her in the summer and you have a summer birthday. Did that become your cake, or did she switch it up every year?
Kat Lieu:
She switched it up. And then I think we started to buy more cakes afterwards, like ice cream cakes. But that was the one that really defined my first memories of my birthdays. And I love my birthdays.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amma was really the only baker in your family. And I know she made chiffon cakes, mooncakes. You described her making cream puffs. Is that sort of the profiteroles, and then she would fill them with cream?
Kat Lieu:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, was it just like a regular whipped cream? Were there flavored whipped creams?
Kat Lieu:
It was a custard one. So she went very, very traditional with her baking of the French goodies.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love. And also durian ice cream?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. So grandma Amma had a freezer that was huge and she'd have durian ice cream there year-round that she made from scratch. I would say like, "How long ago did you make this? " She's like, "Maybe two years ago." But things don't go bad when you freeze it. So it's still very, very good. Very tasty.
Jessie Sheehan:
What kind of flavor should we picture for those that don't know durian?
Kat Lieu:
Very polarizing. So some people love it. Some people hate it. All the men in my family, they hate durian. They call it stinky, cat food diapers, baby diapers. But for me, it just smells fragrant. I don't think it's stinky. And when you taste it's very creamy. So like a cheesy with a bit of onion, sweet, creamy, king of all fruits. As an ice cream, it's just so, so good. You just have to try it and give it a spin and then see what you think. You could be on the camp that hates it and you could be on the camp that loves it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wasn't she also an incredible cook of Vietnamese food?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, she did everything from scratch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God.
Kat Lieu:
She could make anything. So she'd take us to restaurants and say she could make something better and she was right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that confidence. In learning a little bit about you, it sounds like summer's in Montreal. There were so many important food moments with you and Amma and Yeh Yeh. Tell us where Yeh Yeh brought you. Wouldn't he kind of bring you around to either restaurants or supermarkets or just show you all of the delicious treats?
Kat Lieu:
Everything from eating a blue cheese salad very early on as a kid. So I loved blue cheese to an Indian buffet, Japanese buffet, learning how to eat matcha and appreciate it at like six years old.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Kat Lieu:
And they'll take me to a cafe, Alvin Hoot, right downstairs by their apartment and he'll have lots of carrot cakes and Nanaimo bars and delicious coffee. So yeah, he had me drink coffee and we always joke like that's why I'm so short because they made me drink coffee when I was five, six-years-old.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by Diamond of California Nuts, the century old nut brand I couldn't bake without. If I open my freezer for you right now, because that's where I keep my nuts, you'd see my stock of Diamond walnuts, almonds, and pecans ready for whatever I'm baking next. I love that they work with family run farms that guarantee quality and commitment to the craft. Diamond also created the first ever ready to use nut pie crust, which just so happens to be gluten-free. If you haven't checked these out, you must. They're the best holiday baking shortcut. The first ingredient is nuts, not flour or sugar, and you can really taste the difference. There's a pecan crust that would be amazing with your Thanksgiving pumpkin or apple pies and a chocolate crust that I just want with everything. When you're at the grocery store, look for the nuts in the white bag with the red Diamond logo in the baking aisle. That's your sign. You're getting premium quality nuts that bakers have trusted for generations. Visit diamondnuts.com to find a store nearest you and to explore their fan favorite recipes like pecan sticky buns. Yum. Happy baking.
Cake lovers, you are going to love the next issue of Cherry Bombe magazine. I'm so excited to announce that the upcoming holiday issue of Cherry Bombe is all about cake. It's going to be packed with sweet stories, beautiful recipes, and heartfelt essays dedicated to our favorite dessert. Stay tuned for the cover reveal. I know it's going to be extra delicious. The issue will be out in early December, so head to cherrybombe.com to subscribe now and ensure it lands in your mailbox just in time for the holidays. Now, back to our guest.
Back in Brooklyn, your mom, I'm sure both your parents worked hard, but I was reading about your mom worked incredibly hard as a seamstress to make ends meet, sometimes working till midnight, but she was also cooking and even making sweets. Even though she wasn't using her oven, she would make sweets that were either fried or steamed or boiled. Can you tell us about the Hong Kong and Chinese desserts that she made when you were little?
Kat Lieu:
She made a lot of black sesame soups 'cause she said that would keep our hair nice and black and silky. And she's right. I'm 40-plus and I barely have any strands of white hair yet. She also has very nice peppery hair at 76. She would also make a lot of custardy milky, silky puddings that all you do is just mix eggs with boiling milk and some sugar, or she would steam it into a custard. She would put custard into pumpkins and steam it. Very delicious. And she'd make a lot of cakes like fried mochi.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Kat Lieu:
But we never made cookies together, and we never baked cakes other than grandma's chiffon cake, but only for very special occasions. She did make the cheesecake from the Philadelphia cream cheese recipe-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Kat Lieu:
... and Rice Krispies Treats, the two things that she made that were Western.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to say, I'm a huge Rice Krispies Treat fan. I cannot tell you how excited I was to learn that that was one of the things your mom made. And it made me think like she had a sweet tooth, yes?
Kat Lieu:
I believe so. She doesn't say that she does. She does love things that are not too sweet, but I do think she likes half-and-half. It depends. She loves mooncakes, but she loves the egg yolk in the mooncake. So I think she leans more towards savory, not to sweet treats.
Jessie Sheehan:
I always like to ask guests about food TV, whether they were watching it or not. And I know you were really into “Yan Can Cook” and Martin Yan and you would watch the reruns religiously. One of the episodes was maybe about scallion pancakes and that ended up being kind of monumental because the first dough you ever kind of worked with was a scallion pancake dough, yes?
Kat Lieu:
Yes. I was watching it. I followed along religiously. The first time I made it, the dough was a little too tough. And then I tried again and again, and I made it for my little sister. We were young. We were very young back then and she loved it and it just solidified my love for making things from scratch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. Was that one of the first things you would've made by yourself?
Kat Lieu:
That was one of them. Then came meatloaf, was of total failure. I tried to make my own guacamole, another failure, but the scallion pancakes were really, really good.
Jessie Sheehan:
So were you more interested in making savory food for yourself than sweets?
Kat Lieu:
I think so. Yeah, I think so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Were there any other shows that were interesting to you?
Kat Lieu:
No. Martin Yan really called to me because he spoke our language. He looked like my grandfather.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course.
Kat Lieu:
My mom loved and idolized him, but we did watch a lot of something called TVB, which is Hong Kong TV, but we had to go rent the VHSs from Chinatown every Sunday and bring it home. So it was very rare that we got to see Hong Kong television, but they did have a lot of Cantonese-speaking cooking shows that I also like to watch. But for some reason, I really wanted to just learn from Martin Yan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. I was on a panel with him a couple of years ago, and it was such an incredible treat and honor, and he is hilarious.
Kat Lieu:
Oh my God. If I could get the book in his hand and just meet him. He's my idol.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that. What about cookbooks? Were there any cookbooks? Was your mom at all interested in looking at cookbooks, or did you have any interest?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, I actually borrowed a lot from the library. We didn't have a big stack of cookbooks at home. We borrowed a lot. I read a lot of Better Homes & Gardens, so we subscribed to that. So I would love looking at the recipes from there. And my grandmother, after she passed away, my aunt gave me her stack of cookbooks, but they're all in Chinese.
Jessie Sheehan:
Those are Amma's?
Kat Lieu:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, wow. When you were getting the Better Homes & Gardens books out of the library, were you actually cooking from them or more you just loved reading them?
Kat Lieu:
I read them in the bathroom. We didn't have phones back then to doomscroll on the can, right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Kat Lieu:
So I would just be reading the back of shampoo labels and the Better Homes & Gardens and whatever magazines we had.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that. But at this point, let's say high school-ish, college-ish, you weren't thinking about food as a career. You love to eat, you like to cook, et cetera, but that was it. It wasn't like, "I wonder if I could do this professionally."
Kat Lieu:
I had so many dreams for my profession. I was making video games. I was writing romance novels. I was doing so many things. I wanted to be an architect. I almost got into nutrition school in McGill in Montreal, but I decided to stay in Brooklyn and went on a healthcare track and that was from my parents' pushing.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to say, you basically say that your parents chose your career of physical therapy after high school for you.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, they did.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell me how that worked.
Kat Lieu:
It was one, I couldn't stand blood, so I can't become a nurse to draw blood or become a surgeon. I can't do that. And so my mom says, "成為物理治療師。冇血，只係做運動," which meant, become a physical therapist. There's no blood, just exercise. And I'm like, "Mom, do I look like I like to exercise?" But I went into Brooklyn Tech and I was in biomed major in the high school.
And then after that, I went into Brooklyn College and there was this pre PT track that you could get your PT degree very quickly. And my mom was going through PT for her knee problems. And she said, "Why don't you try volunteering there? You've had foot problems as a child. You went to PT yourself. Check that out, volunteer and see how that goes." So I did that and I kind of liked it because you get to work with people and I love to teach and work with people. And I got my physical therapy degree, three of them very quickly by the age of 23. Went on a fast track, did college through summertime, just ran through all of that. So by the age of 23, I was doctor of physical therapy. Parents were super proud, very, very happy that they finally have another doctor in their family.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was that like a PhD situation?
Kat Lieu:
It's a doctorate.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's incredible.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, doctorate to master's, and a bachelor of health science.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, they were very proud. But for me, I kept searching. I kept searching and searching.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then it was during the pandemic. You started really craving your mom's desserts and sweets like her Hong Kong egg tarts and cocktail buns and Subtle Asian Baking was sort of born out of those cravings amongst other things during the pandemic. Can you tell us about Subtle Asian Traits, Subtle Asian Cooking, and Subtle Asian Baking?
Kat Lieu:
So around 2018, a group online on Facebook called Subtle Asian Traits was born, and it was all about memes of Asian diaspora experiences, how your mom would never tell you that she loves you, but she'll feed you fruits and slices of fruits and so forth. Or your mom would take a slipper to smack you before she would say anything nice to you. And from that, I spun off into a group called Subtle Asian Baking just because there wasn't a group like that. And my goal was to really promote the love for Asian flavors and Asian ingredients in the form of baking. I thought about savory and sweets, but the sweets part really blew up, especially during COVID where everyone was making sourdough bread, macarons, and our group just really connected and formed. And we had a lot, a lot of followers very quickly. The one thing that I'm super proud of is this group was able to raise a lot of money for charity. So we use our platform for good.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you decided to start Subtle Asian Baking. What does that look like? You just start like a Facebook page?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. Anyone can start a Facebook page if you wanted to. Subtle Asian traits wasn't something that was trademarked. You can't trademark the words subtle and Asian. So I just added baking, but I did reach out to Subtle Asian Traits. "Do I have your blessing?" We became friends and they're like, "That's fine." But Subtle Asian Baking just became an entity on its own.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's incredible. I know that when you think of Subtle Asian Baking beginnings, you not only think of the pandemic, but you also think of the uptick in Asian violence and sort of giving this voice to all of these Asian bakers and people who were then going to go out and make all this money for these causes is kind of amazing.
Kat Lieu:
Yes. It was right around that time. There was just a lot of anti-Asian sentiments. I believe it came out of COVID coming out of China and Wuhan, and then of course the president at that time not helping it and just fueling a lot of racism, myths, and hate against Asian American and Asian communities. And because of that, we rallied our group to not only love the flavors that represent Asia, but also we need to love the people.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I assume sort of Subtle Asian Baking and your role in that and your social media that led to your first cookbook deal.
Kat Lieu:
Yes, it was because Subtle Asian Baking got so big, so fast. We were featured also on Eater. People just loved our story that we were raising money and also building the love for Asian baking. Prior to 2020, prior to our group when you Googled Asian baking, there was nothing online about Asian baking. It just really blew up the love for pandan, matcha ube, black sesame. And the first cookbook deal, yes, it was from an editor. His name was Jonathan Simcosky, and he sent me a very nondescript email. I thought it was spam. He was like, "Are you working on a book?" And I'm like, "What book? Children's book, rom-com? What do you mean?"
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kat Lieu:
He's like, "A cookbook, a Subtle Asian Baking cookbook." I said, "Oh, okay, let's do it. " And then that just happened, book one, then book two, and now book three. Tell us what your mom said when you got your cookbook deal the first time. She thought I was paying... She still thinks that I pay for everything. So if she hears this, she'll say, "How much did you pay Jessie?" When I go on anything, she's like, "How much did you pay? How much did you pay for the book to be printed?" I guess it just never resonated with her that people would value my voice and actually pay me instead of me having to pay to get my voice amplified. It just never clicked with her.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is she disappointed that you're not still doing physical therapy?
Kat Lieu:
I think she's become my biggest fan. The first year, yes, because it was so hard to become a physical therapist. It took almost half a year to get that board exam in, and then your schooling. To throw that all away just seems like a waste. I don't feel it is a waste because I learned so much as a physical therapist. I don't think I could write a cookbook the way I do without having been so good with my bedside manners and teaching thousands and thousands of people, physical therapy, and lymphedema care.
Jessie Sheehan:
So tell us recently, I believe, tell us about being on the TEDx stage.
Kat Lieu:
It was incredible. It was having that spotlight on you, having 400 people just clap and laugh, not at you, but with you, and being able to talk about racism so openl,y and talking about dispelling the myths against MSG, and then telling everyone about this framework that I created from the acronyms MSG, it was so empowering.
Jessie Sheehan:
What's the framework?
Kat Lieu:
The MSG framework. It's “make it yours, say it louder, go all in.” It was a 16-minute speech that I memorized.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Kat Lieu:
And then afterward, someone came up to me, and she is viral on TED Talk herself, millions of views. And she said, "That was the best talk ever." And it just felt so, so validating.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, Kat. That's amazing.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. From someone who didn't speak English to being able to speak to so many people so powerfully, it was just such a full circle moment for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible. I know we were talking before we began recording a little bit about a move that you're feeling professionally right now, about moving sort of away from content creation and into food writing. Can you tell us about that?
Kat Lieu:
Being a writer has always been my dream. So I've always wanted to write books, always wanted to write novels. If we get a fourth cookbook deal, amazing. But if it doesn't happen, you have to sustain your living certain ways. And I've been able to do that being a food writer. So I write for Tasting Tables, Simply Recipes, sometimes Allrecipes, parade.com, and very recently Eater, so I'm very appreciative of that. And when I sit down and write, it just feels like such a beautiful creative outlet that I love.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. Now we get to talk about the new book.
Kat Lieu:
Yay.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's called “108 Asian Cookies: Not-Too-Sweet Treats from a Third-Culture Kitchen.” So I have a couple of queries. First, tell me about putting not-too-sweet in the title. It's funny, you said that earlier when you were talking about your mom, but tell me about putting that in the title.
Kat Lieu:
I thought about that being the title itself, but someone else already came out with a book called “Not Too Sweet.” Not too sweet is, in Cantonese, 唔太甜. So if you give my mom a cake or a cookie, she will never tell you that it tastes good. She'll say, "唔太甜." Not too sweet.
Jessie Sheehan:
So interesting.
Kat Lieu:
And then that means she likes it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kat Lieu:
I think it's because in Asian cultures, a lot of our sweets are very balanced and we actually eat sweets throughout the day versus just for dessert. So for breakfast, you can have a cake. For lunch or tea time, you can have a little snack. Because of that, we don't frost cupcakes with a lot of sweet frosting. We use less sugar. We balance a lot of the sweets with pork floss or salt or miso, soy sauce. It was just so important to have that in the subtitle because I wanted people to know how different these treats are, how different these cookies are. So not too sweet, made it into the subtitle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Will you also tell us about the meaning of third culture kitchen that you use in the title?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. Third culture mainly is who I am, someone who was born in Montreal to Chinese-Vietnamese parents who have multiple cultures that influence their life and that influenced my life. At home, while we will celebrate Halloween in October, we also celebrate Mid-Autumn Festival and have mooncakes. We have sriracha next to ketchup. We have mochiko or glutenous rice flour next to AP flour. It's just so many different cultures that are not from the place of where you're born, so not Montreal and not where you're raised Brooklyn, yet you still are American, but you are also influenced by the cultures of your parents' heritage. So I think that is what third culture means to me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the book includes some of your viral recipes, it includes recipes that are passed down through generations. It includes community favorites. Can you tell us about the mochi cookies?
Kat Lieu:
Mochi cookies are from when South Koreans immigrated to California and they were missing the sweets that they have. It's called tteok, T-T-E-O-K or guk. I'm not saying it correctly 'cause I'm not Korean, but it's inspired by that recipe. And then I made it into my own version. So you can make the mochi cookies using water, using milk, adding whatever ingredients that you want, and then turn it into bars or turn it into cookie form. And it's resonated a lot with the community because these cookies can be vegan, gluten-free and so different from a normal cookie, and they're just so, so delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Texturally, so good. We kind of touched on MSG before when we were talking about the TED Talk, but tell us about adding it to cookies. There's a whole section in the beginning of the book where you talk about the importance of MSG and why you wanted it in the book.
Kat Lieu:
MSG is basically the sodium salt of glutamic acid and people always say MSG is a chemical, but basically everything that you eat is a chemical. Salt is a chemical, right. It's sodium. Adding MSG just really pumps out the umami flavors in a cookie, especially if it's a sweet and savory cookie. So if you're making a matcha cookie, matcha has inherent umami notes. And if you're adding a little bit of that MSG, it just brings out the umami notes and the grassy notes of your matcha. And if you're making char siu cookies, adding a little bit of MSG again just brings out that delicious savory note, makes you smack your lips, and then also it balances the sweetness. So yes, MSG has been very fundamental in my savory sweet baking.
Jessie Sheehan:
It reminds me a teeny bit of how we use vanilla in baking. Even in the lemon cake, I will probably add a little bit of vanilla because I feel like the vanilla helps bloom the lemon.
Kat Lieu:
Yes. It's all about the balancing and the blooming.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Using it to bring out other flavors. Tell us about the chewy Taiwanese Snowflake crisp, which I think might be your favorite cookie. And I think I made them when you sent me your first book.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But they also are featured in this book.
Kat Lieu:
Yes, yes, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about those.
Kat Lieu:
Because they remind me so much of Rice Krispies Treats, again, something that my mom made a lot when we were growing up, but they just have that extra chewiness. And because you're using crackers like Ritz crackers, they also have that saltiness. And then you add in your nuts. It's just a cookie that shows you how versatile a cookie can be and how much of a shape-shifter it can be and how much of you you can put into a cookie. So you can make the marshmallows ube colored and ube flavored or pandan flavored depending on your mood. And you could add in chocolate chips if you don't like nuts. You can make a vegan if you want if you're using vegan marshmallows and vegan crackers. The chew is just so good. So I just love everything about this cookie. It's also so easy to make, so they're a little dangerous. So I try not to make them because I can't stop eating them.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, before we jump into the recipe, tell us about your mom eating your Cantonese shortbread for the first time.
Kat Lieu:
So she grew up super poor, super, super poor in Hong Kong. She was working ever since she was 11-years-old, and that meant she had to ration her money. That meant would she have a meal that day or having a Cantonese shortbread from a bakery that's fresh in the morning. She would never choose a shortbread because then she could have the meal, but she always knew what it looked like. She always smelled it. She always saw people eat it and it gave her a lot of nostalgia when I baked it for the first time, took it out of the oven, white, puffy, beautiful cookie. She looked at it, she smelled it. She's like, "脆餅," which is Cantonese shortbread. She took a bite and she's like, "Wow, I never had this, but in my 70s, I finally could try it."
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe a Cantonese shortbread?
Kat Lieu:
It's a huge cookie. It's not too sweet. And the whole point of it is when you bite it, you want the powder to turn your lips white. And it's just substantial because it's good for breakfast. It's good for a worker who's very tired, who needs energy. It's not so much a dessert, but it's substance.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Now we're going to talk about the recipe. So we're talking about crazy rich billionaire shortbread, and these are kind of based on millionaire bars, which we will also talk about. Tell us how the movie “Crazy Rich Asians” inspired this bar.
Kat Lieu:
Well, that movie was so historic because it had an all Asian cast or a mostly Asian cast, and it actually did well in the box office. Many years ago when I was starting my career as a PT, I thought maybe I could write a romance novel and convince my parents that I don't have to be a PT. But unfortunately, when I was trying to sell the book, my mentor told me, "You'll never sell this book because your characters are Asian." And this was in my 20s, but then seeing “Crazy Rich Asians” become such a box office success made me realize maybe other people were wrong. The Asian culture can sell and Asian actors can drive a movie and drive ticket sales. And so I wanted to create a cookie that really represented the opulence that was shown in that movie. And I thought, "Why go millionaires when we could go billionaires?"
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. You created a shortbread fit for a billionaire, but with comforting, warm, familiar flavors anyone can enjoy. It's a play on a traditional millionaire's bar, which is shortbread base, then kind of a chewy caramel and then chocolate. But yours has this incredible jade green, buttery pandan shortbread, which forms the base. Can you remind us what pandan is?
Kat Lieu:
Pandan is a leaf. So you find it in Southeast Asia and it has notes of vanilla and young coconut. And when you blend it and make it into an extract, it'll turn your goodies green.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we have that shortbread. Then we're topping it with a layer of decadent coconut caramel that's studded with curried peanuts and then followed by a chocolate ganache, then some raspberries and flex of edible gold foil if we're feeling billionaire-ish. So first things first, we're going to make the curried peanuts. So we're going to heat up a wok or a frying pan over medium high heat. Is there a brand or type of wok or frying pan that you like to use?
Kat Lieu:
I'm blanking out on the name of it, but it was the wok that Kenji Lopez.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, recommended?
Kat Lieu:
Recommends, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love. I love. And which do you use? Are you always using a wok when you're making the peasant?
Kat Lieu:
Yes, that's the wok, but I forgot the name of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And if we're using a frying pan, like a cast iron or just any frying pan.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, any frying pan would work.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once the wok or pan is hot enough and is starting to release a little bit of smoke, we're going to add a neutral oil, then we're going to add some curry powder. Is there a spice brand that you love or a particular type of curry powder?
Kat Lieu:
I do love S&B curry powder, but if you go into any Asian supermarket and just ask someone what their favorite curry powder-
Jessie Sheehan:
Buy that one.
Kat Lieu:
... use that one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, great. Add curry powder, add a little bit of soy sauce. Favorite brand?
Kat Lieu:
I have a few. So I would shout out Haday. Haday is a really good new soy sauce. I also love one that I can't pronounce because it's all in Japanese. So I think it's an arimitsaki or something. I'm butchering it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to add some light brown sugar and some MSG. Where would we buy MSG?
Kat Lieu:
I would say any Asian supermarket, and go with the brand that you know. So I know Ajinomoto.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. You call for a dash. I don't usually talk about measurements, but is a dash like a pinch?
Kat Lieu:
I would say go with your eyeball with dashes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kat Lieu:
But with MSG, you always want to use at least four teaspoons.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And we're going to stir all of those ingredients together. What tool are we stirring? We're forming a paste. Are we using a spatula?
Kat Lieu:
Just a spatula. Yeah, a wooden spoon would work too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And then once that's aromatic, after about two minutes, we're going to toss in some skinless shelled peanuts, chop them or whole peanuts or-
Kat Lieu:
It depends on your taste. I always like whole peanuts-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I know. And they visually-
Kat Lieu:
Or halved. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, visually they're really pretty. Then we're going to cook the peanuts in this paste, stirring to coat with the paste until toasty, fragrant, and releasing oil for a few minutes. And then we'll remove from the heat and set aside to cool. I love this tip. If you're going to be kind of crunched for time when you're making these, you can make the peanuts a day ahead of time or you can skip them all together.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And maybe if you have a peanut allergy, you skip them all together. Now we're going to adjust the rack to the middle position in our oven and preheat it to 350. I love this tip. This is how we're going to line the pan. We're going to crumple up a piece of parchment paper, then uncrumple our piece of parchment paper and use that to line a 9-by-13-inch baking dish with an overhang. So, a couple of questions. The overhang is on the long sides of the pan?
Kat Lieu:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And no greasing. There's nothing; we're not using anything to stick the paper down into the pan.
Kat Lieu:
No. When you crumple it and uncrumple and then you just press it in, it'll just stick.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to smooth and press down the parchment paper with our hands. Now we're going to make the shortbread crust. We're going to use our stand mixer fitted with a paddle attachment, or we can use a mixing bowl with a hand mixer fitted with either the whisk or the beaters. And we're going to cream some cubed room temp, unsalted butter, some light brown sugar, and some red miso. Then we're going to add the egg and the pandan extract with color. Can you buy the extract without color?
Kat Lieu:
Yes. I have a friend named Jamie, Jame, and she makes Halo Pantry colorless pandan extract.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, okay. Good to know. And is there a brand of pandan extract?
Kat Lieu:
I usually use Butterfly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And where do we find it?
Kat Lieu:
Again, any Asian supermarket, H Mart-
Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome. We will be going. We will be going.
Kat Lieu:
... 99 Ranch.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to mix that until it's incorporated again on our mixer. We're like at a medium speed?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Kat Lieu:
Around there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to add some all-purpose flour. Do you have a favorite brand?
Kat Lieu:
King Arthur Baking.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And some sweetened coconut. What brand of sweetened coconut do you like?
Kat Lieu:
It's usually go to Whole Foods, whatever I find that's organic.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to add some King Arthur Flour, some sweetened coconut from Whole Foods, and we're going to mix on low until the shortbread dough just forms. What should we be looking for? Just like it sort of comes together, like cleans the side of the bowl.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. When it's pasty or it balls up into your paddle attachment.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, okay. Then we know we're done. We're going to then take the dough, press it with our hands into an even layer in the prepared baking dish, and we'll bake it until golden, about 20 to 25 minutes and then transfer it to a wire rack to cool. It's funny. There are a lot of steps, but each step is so easy, right?
Kat Lieu:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Then we're going to make the caramel filling. So while the shortbread is baking, we're going to combine some sweet and condensed milk or we can use sweet and condensed coconut milk. Which do you use?
Kat Lieu:
I use the regular, but I always like to give vegans a choice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And sweet and condensed coconut milk is sort of a similar product made by a different company that comes in a can.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. It's very similar to just regular sweetened condensed milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That's amazing.
Kat Lieu:
Same texture. Tastes very coconutly, but vegan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that. I love coconut. So we're going to add some sweetened condensed milk or sweetened condensed coconut milk. We're going to add some unpacked light brown sugar. And I wondered about that. Why unpacked?
Kat Lieu:
Because when it's packed or unpacked, unpacked just means that you use less of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, okay.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. And so I just wanted to make sure the volume was correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
I got you. Unpacked. Now we know why. Light brown sugar. So we're using a little less than a packed cup. Some light corn syrup and some coconut milk. We're going to add some red miso. So the red miso is going to be in the caramel, and we also put a little bit in our shortbread. It's a theme. And some Japanese whiskey or bourbon into the saucepan, a specific brand of Japanese whisky or bourbon.
Kat Lieu:
I love Suntory.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to whisk continuously over medium heat. The caramel is ready when the mixture darkens to a rich amber color, it thickens and it kind of pulls away from the sides of the saucepan as you stir it. That should be about eight minutes. A candy or digital thermometer should register about 235 or 240 degrees. But do we need to use the thermometer?
Kat Lieu:
It's just for those who are not too confident. If you've never made caramel before, it could become too hardened. So it's just to give people some confidence. If you have it, use it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And do you have a favorite digital thermometer that you love?
Kat Lieu:
The funny thing is, I just look at reviews and whatever has the best reviews. I recently just broke one that I used for many years, so I just had my husband buy me the next best one.
Jessie Sheehan:
I do the same thing. I look at the reviews and I'm like, "Okay, I'll get that one." Another way to tell it's ready. If you run a spoon through the bottom of the caramel and it leaves a trail on the bottom of the pan... Not the bottom of the caramel. If you run a spoon through the caramel, kind of dragging it along the bottom of the pan, if the space, the trail takes a little bit of time to fill up again, then you know it's ready.
Kat Lieu:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay. And you'd want to avoid overcooking because the caramel will taste burnt.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah. It will burn very easily.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Now we're going to mix the curried peanuts into the caramel and immediately pour the caramel over the baked shortbread, smooth the caramel with an offset spatula into a flat even layer, and then we'll refrigerate for at least 30 minutes to allow the caramel to set. Would you ever speed this up by sticking it in the freezer?
Kat Lieu:
You can.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, yeah, you totally can.
Jessie Sheehan:
And right now we're going to go ahead and make the ganache, but I also loved this tip. You said, "We do not need to add the ganache. And as it is right now with the curry peanut caramel and the pandan shortbread, it's almost like a payday bar." Yum. Now we're going to make the chocolate and ganache topping. So after the caramel is set, 'cause we want it to be ready, we're going to combine some semi-sweet chocolate bars and finally chop them. Is there a brand that you like?
Kat Lieu:
I always use Baker's.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. We're going to finally chop some Baker's semi-sweet chocolate bars. We're going to add some coconut cream. Couple of questions. Is that like the sweetened coconut cream like Coco Lopez?
Kat Lieu:
Or like that creamy top that you get from a can of coconut milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
So not sweetened?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, doesn't have wheat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Not sweetened. Okay. Good, good, good. Coconut cream, unsweetened, and a little bit of neutral oil, which is either canola or vegetable. Does that promote kind of the glossiness in the ganache?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, it helps it not seize up. So it helps it keep it silky and pourable.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to combine all of those ingredients in a microwave-safe bowl. I love that you use the microwave, 'cause I'm very microwave-forward myself. Then we're going to microwave in 30-second bursts, stirring with a rubber spatula after each burst. Again, a brand of spatula?
Kat Lieu:
OXO is great.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Until the mixture is completely melted and smooth, about two minutes. Then we're going to pour the chocolate ganache over the set caramel, smooth the chocolate into an even layer and garnish with flaky sea salt. Then we have the option to top with raspberries with the stem end down and we can decorate with either these raspberries. This is all optional. We can decorate the chocolate with the raspberries or with edible gold leaf or both. Where would we buy the gold leaf? Do you buy that like on Amazon?
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, I do. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to cover and refrigerate the bars for like 20 minutes, and we'll use a sharp knife to slice the shortbread. Can you tell us about one or two other cookies from the book that people are loving and making?
Kat Lieu:
Very surprisingly, the fah cookie. People are already making it, and that one gave me so much headache.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about it.
Kat Lieu:
Imagine trying to put all the components of fah into a cookie. I went a little bit too far, but now it's become a really good one. It has all the spices, it has some lime, it has some basil, so it does taste really, really good now and it seems to resonate with people.
Jessie Sheehan:
What's the base of the cookie?
Kat Lieu:
The base is really kind of like a shortbread.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kat Lieu:
Yeah, kind of like a shortbread, but a little bit more buttery, a little bit more chunky. So that one has been resonating. And a lot of people have been making the black sesame white chocolate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, tell us about that one.
Kat Lieu:
That one is a striking black cookie. So it's not burnt, but it's like beautiful. It looks like cookies and cream, then you have a smothering of white chocolate over it and a little bit of sea salt. And it's just such a striking, beautiful cookie that tastes so, so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Kat, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Kat Lieu:
Oh, thank you, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Diamond of California Nuts and California Prunes for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.