Lauren Ko Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, "Snackable Bakes." Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Lauren Ko, the contemporary pie artist and author of the baking book, "Pieometry." Lauren is also the culinary creative behind the popular Instagram account, @lokokitchen. Since Pi Day is coming up March 14th, we thought it would be fun to chat with Lauren about all things pie and her signature spoke design, which has been dubbed the modern lattice. The self-taught baker joins me to talk about her journey from novice baker to pie expert and she guides me through her signature spoke recipe with berry filling. Stay tuned for our chat.
Thank you to Plugra Premium European-Style Butter for supporting today's show. As some of you know, I've been a big fan of Plugra for some time now and was introduced to it at my very first bakery job, when I was just a newbie baker. Fast-forward to today, I'm a professional baker, cookbook author and recipe developer, and I can continue to rely on Plugra for all my baking needs. My fridge is always stocked with Plugra sticks and solids. I especially love that Plugra contains 82% butterfat. The higher butterfat content means less moisture and more fat. And, as bakers know, fat equals flavor. Plugra butter is also slow-churned, making it more pliable and easy to work with. I do a lot of baking, this time of year, for work and for myself and my family. Comfy bakes, like my pistachio chocolate anytime buns and cinnamon sugar buttermilk donut holes, and I always reach for Plugra unsalted butter. I've also been making a lot of yeasted breads lately, and I love the buttery flavor Plugra adds to my dough. Plugra Premium European-Style Butter is the perfect choice from professional kitchens, to your home kitchen. Ask for Plugra at your favorite grocery store or visit plugra.com for a store locator and recipes.
Let's check in with today's guest. Lauren, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk about your signature spoke pie with bluebarb filling with you and so much more.
Lauren Ko:
Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Jessie Sheehan:
You have a truly incredible pie making origin story. Can you tell us about how and why you started making pies. I believe that Pinterest may have played a role.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. It's a long winding story, but mostly it's all accidental. Basically, I moved to Seattle in late summer of 2016 and I was funemployed. My professional background at the time was in social work and nonprofit administration, so I was looking for a job in that space and in the meantime just dinking around on the internet as one does with too much time on their hands. And I think I stumbled across some really beautiful pictures of pie on Pinterest and I thought, I've been cooking and baking my whole life, but in my Chinese Honduran American family, not a lot of traditional apple pie or really any pie happening. I made it to adulthood having never made one and wondered if I could. So I just googled a recipe. I don't even remember which one it was, where I found it, but basically I made my first plaid lattice apple pie and it was fine. Didn't change my life. I didn't instantly transform into a pie lady. It was simply something that I added to my repertoire of things that I would make for fun on the weekends or to feed my family, and that was that.
I think maybe I made three, four in the next year, so it wasn't even an obsession or anything that I was wildly interested in. And then fast-forward to August of 2017 when I started my Lokokitchen Instagram account, and again, that was also a fluke. I felt like I was becoming that friend and putting too many food photos in my personal Instagram account and I feel like Instagram was a different space back then. So I really needed a little bit of separation. I really just meant for it to be a personal photo album, a holding space for things that I was making again for fun or to feed my family.
It was going to be summer salads, blueberry muffins, alfajores or whatever I was making, but it just so happened that the first photo I posted was this geometric peach pie. And again, that was probably the fifth pie I had ever made in my life. It was probably just the most recent photo in my camera roll. And then it got several hundred likes, which as a regular person by then just working a normal office job totally blew my mind. A few days later I was like, well, should I post another photo of a pie or a tart or something along these lines? So that's what I did. Again, several hundred likes. Within a month I had a thousand followers, which again, as a regular person was like, what is happening? Are these trolls? Are these bots? Should we go back on private? I don't know who these people are. How are they finding me? Again, totally different landscape. That was also the time that I created and shared my first of what would become my signature spoke to celebrate that 1000 followers and things just snowballed and spiraled from there.
Jessie Sheehan:
You were struck with textiles and colorful designs and geometric patterns, and those were the things that excited you artistically. And so then you thought, well, why don't I put that on a pie?
Lauren Ko:
Totally. So there's a couple factors coming into play at that time. I had an office job by then, I wasn't super happy, it wasn't very creative, and so baking for fun post workday or on the weekends was my creative outlet and also this therapeutic zen session for me to zone out, think about something else and recharge. And I've also always just loved design. I've always been an appreciator of art and color and texture, textiles, all kinds of things. Then also when I first stumbled across those beautiful pictures of pie on Pinterest, pie was I think maybe coming into its moment, and there were a few original pie makers who had these really beautiful floral pie tops or it was really popular to do letter cutouts and have little messages on the pies, but just a lot of really rustic foliage, things like that, that as a novice I felt like I could not create. I didn't feel confident in my dough making skills or my free hand design cutting, and so I just naturally one gravitate towards clean modern design, but two, for this particular instance, it was a lot of geometric designs are constructed of straight lines. That's how I settled on this aesthetic was just like I can cut dough out of straight lines and then construct them that way, and that's how I landed on this aesthetic that embodies Lokokitchen now.
And then just always drawn to color, always trying to do things that I don't see happening elsewhere or trying to think outside the box or the circle and do things. Pie is this very traditional rustic dessert, and I didn't see anybody exploring it in a modern, colorful way at that time. And so just wanted to explore something that I hadn't seen before.
Jessie Sheehan:
Instagram ended up leading to a book deal. And your New York Times bestselling book, “Pieometry.” Can you tell us about the book?
Lauren Ko:
It is a book with 25 pie recipes and 25 tart recipes, and within those, there's crust recipes, there's dough recipes, there's filling recipes, and also step-by-step instructions for 50 designs. I like to say that this is a book for everyone, so whether you are a trained pastry chef ... Which by the way, I am not. I've never worked in a professional kitchen nor have I gone to culinary or pastry school. And so this book is also for people who are like me, home bakers who just enjoy creating at home in their own space. And it's also a book for armchair bakers. For people who like to appreciate good design, lots of color, lots of texture, and who like to eat with their eyes. And it's also a great gift. So if you don't like to bake, you can give this to someone and have them make these things for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Two other things I wanted to say about the book, you say that really even though the pies look difficult to produce, they can be achieved with a knife, a ruler, and some patience. Have you found that to be true from people buying the book and writing to you hopefully nicely DMing you, et cetera, saying yes, I never ... Because I am such a awkward person with ... I just feel like I would not be able to do it. That there's no way I could cut the strips as thinly as they needed to be cut or all of that. What would you say to someone like me?
Lauren Ko:
As I tell everyone, if I can do this, anybody can. I understand that some of these things that I do, some of these designs do require a little bit of time and patience. And again, this was just my zone out activity in the beginning. But I'm also a huge proponent of making what you have work for you. So if you're short on time, short on patience, there are designs and ways that you can craft something that looks and tastes beautiful within your parameters. You don't need a lot of fancy equipment. When I started doing this, I didn't even have a ruler in my apartment, so used a cookie sheet and a paring knife to cut those dough strips. And as I teach my workshops, I tell people at the beginning of class that most of my designs look more complicated than they are to execute. And everybody's always like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And then I do the demo and the last half of class everybody gets to make their own pie, and the signature spoke is one of those designs that I teach, and a majority of people construct that design and they're always shocked by one, how quickly it comes together, and two, how simple it really is to execute.
It's been dubbed the modern lattice, and I think it's actually easier than the traditional lattice because there's no folding back strips and figuring out which pattern. Once you put a dough strip on your pie, you're done with it, you move on to the next thing and you don't have to think about it again. So yeah, I think if maybe one design feels too complicated for you, then surely there's another one in the book. But yeah. I'm a huge proponent of this is easier than it looks, which is nice because you have something really fancy and beautiful at the end and you didn't necessarily have to break your brain or do any high level calculations to get there, but also there's something for everyone.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before we dive into your pie, tell us a little bit about what you're working on. I think you're maybe focusing on in-person workshops and events.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I'm currently teaching a bunch of workshops around Seattle and then in March for Pi Day, which has become the biggest day of the year for me, surprisingly or not surprisingly. I get to go teach a couple workshops with the Dallas Arboretum. And then usually summer is a little bit slower, so I just hang out and make plans for fall, which is big major pie season. So usually I have a lot of workshops and classes of different varieties and do lots of in-person events at that point. That's basically what I'm focused on. People keep asking if I'm writing another book. I'm not ready to jump back in quite yet.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best prunes out there. I'm a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. California Prunes are good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper and antioxidants to support healthy bones. I've started making myself a daily smoothie, which is a great vehicle for incorporating healthy foods into your diet. One of my favorite combinations right now is blueberries and kale with some prunes added for natural sweetness and depth of flavor. When it comes to baking. You can use California Prune puree to replace some of the sugar, eggs or fat in a recipe. It's super easy to whip up, just blend prunes and water together and voila. You can also add California Prunes to any treat that calls for dried fruit like bread, scones, cakes and cookies. Prunes pair well with ingredients like chocolate, caramel, honey, coffee, even chilies. They also add sweetness and depth to savory recipes like chicken marbella, sauces, or stews. For recipe ideas and more, be sure to check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
I've got great news listeners. Jubilee 2024 is taking place Saturday, April 20th at Center 415 in Manhattan and tickets are on sale now. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women and culinary creatives in the food and drink space in the US. It's a beautiful day of conversation and connection and I hope to see you there. You can learn more and snag tickets at cherrybomb.com. Now back to our guest.
So now we're going to talk about your signature spoke pie with bluebarb filling. Your signature spoke design is rightly considered the modern lattice and is a mainstay of the book. I think I've read its design to you represents your name, your brand and entire modern pie movement. And I think that the design is based on string art. Can you tell us what string art is?
Lauren Ko:
Either string art or a mix of those spirograph stencils that I really loved as a kid. String art, I think it's that art medium where people put nails into a wooden board or some harder surface and then they basically construct a full design wrapping string in lines or concentric. I'm terrible at math so I don't even know what the correct vocabulary is. But basically you wrap string around these nails and create these designs. And it was also inspired by a lot of those spirograph stencils that I was really obsessed with as a kid. Which funny story, I was recently in a drug store, like a CVS getting passport photos done, and they had a pack of spirograph stencils for sale and I had no idea that was still a thing these days. Well, I don't know if having them in CVS means they're relevant, but I was shocked to see them on the market all the same. But basically there are these designs or geometric shapes constructed of straight lines and that was the inspiration for this spoke design. And again, going back to being a novice, I didn't think that I could do any crazy designs or anything that was hand cut, but I was confident in my ability to cut dough strips and that's how this design was born.
Jessie Sheehan:
So first things first, we're going to make two discs of pie dough for this particular pie. We're going to combine some ice and some water in a small cup. Then we're going to combine in a large bowl some flour, sugar and kosher salt. Do you like a glass bowl or a metal bowl? Do you have a go-to bowl?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I have a whole stash of large stainless steel mixing bowls that I use for my workshops, and so I just keep those in my kitchen and reach for those too. They're nice because they're dishwasher friendly, so I can just toss them in afterwards.
Jessie Sheehan:
Restaurant supply situation with those?
Lauren Ko:
Pretty much.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we have our dry ingredients in this big bowl. We're going to stir up the dry ingredients. You say just stir with a spatula. Should I be picturing a flexible silicone spatula or a wooden spatula? What's your tool of choice?
Lauren Ko:
I love a silicone spatula that's sturdy but still has a little bit of flexibility on the end to scrape up at the end.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to add some cubed unsalted butter. You're going to toss the cubes to coat them in flour. I assume you can do that with either the spatula or your hands. Then you're going to flatten each cube of butter with your pointer fingers and your thumbs. Often people say just with your fingers, but I love the specificity of the pointer and the thumb. And then toss to coat flattened butter pieces and now we're going to continue to massage that butter into the dry ingredients. At this point, still using either the spatula or your fingers?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. Usually my hands. I like to get in there. That way you can control the butter piece sizes. I think a lot of recipes when I was first learning to make dough say an assortment of walnut size pieces or peas, but I prefer an assortment of cornflake sizes because I want those butter pieces to be flat to bake into those pastry layers instead of round chunks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, my next note was going to be how much I love the cornflake comparison because I've never heard it described that way, and I feel like that's ... At least for me, having eaten cornflakes as a child that's very visceral and I'm like, oh yeah, cornflake. Of course. That makes so much more sense. When you think walnut or pea, you're thinking round and thick, but you're for fassaging it as it were. So we have a range of cornflake sized pieces that we've massaged and you can do up to this point in the recipe in a food processor as well, which is just you're still combining that water and ice, but then you're putting the dry ingredients into a food processor pulsing quickly to incorporate, sprinkling in the butter cubes, pulsing about 20 to 25 times. Again at this point, are we looking for corn flakes when we open up the food processor? I know there might be some errant pieces that didn't quite get corn flaky enough, but is that still our visual with the food food processor?
Lauren Ko:
Less so. I think with the food processor it's harder to get those flakes and so I generally make my dough by hand because you have better control of the butter pieces, but doing it in the food processor does save a little bit of manual labor and time. Usually if I go that route, I'll just take a quick peek and sift through some of the butter really quickly and just flatten any pieces that look a little too round, a little too large.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you've use the food processor, you're going to have dumped into that big large bowl that you used if you made the dough by hand. You're going to add two tablespoons of that cold water and then you're going to fluff the moisture through the flour with that spatula gently turning the mixture as it were to moisten the dry ingredients and the butter. And then you're going to continue adding cold water one tablespoon at a time. Is there a typical amount of water that you think you end up using from that ice and water mixture or is it just so weather dependent and temp of kitchen dependent that it just changes all the time?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. It really depends. I think it depends on the flour, the butter that you're using, and to some extent the weather. In my book, I have the recipe for a single disc of dough and I basically always make two discs at the same time, so I double the recipe. For double it's usually anywhere from eight tablespoons to 11 on a really juicy day. So I know that pie dough has that reputation for being really scary and finicky and so much of what I've learned is just by repetition and practice and doing over and over until you get a sense of how it should feel, how it should look.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think it's scary for people ... And I'm one of the people who's scared because I love being told what to do.
Lauren Ko:
Same.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I find it very hard when I have to make decisions in the middle. Like what do you mean I should just keep going? I don't know. I want someone to say, stop at this. But you're right, it's about feel and it's about look and it's about practice.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I feel the same way. And I also want to know that it's going to ... As a perfectionist, I want it to turn out that first time. I want it to be good every time. But as I've learned, so much of what I've really learned about baking and pie dough and pies is from failures or mistakes. That's what has taught me the most. So when people in my class are like, "Oh, I'm scared. What do I do next?", or, "I'm just really hesitant to jump in there.", I like to tell them that there are no baking failures, just learning experiences. So even if you're scared, go for it and if it doesn't turn out exactly as you hope, you'll still have takeaways to guide you on your next baking venture.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. So as you're incorporating this water into the butter, into the dry ingredients, you're pressing the dough with your flexible spatula after each tablespoon until the dough begins to come together, but you're going to avoid heavy kneading. And by heavy kneading, do you just mean you're going to avoid trying to turn it into a cohesive dough in that bowl with the pressing of that spatula?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. Definitely. I think dough is the same word used for bread and pie, and I think the process is very different. So we're not super handling it and mixing it and putting a lot of strength into this dough unlike bread. We're just bringing it together until it holds. We're not really getting in there with our knuckles or hands or any muscle strength.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to turn the dough out onto our work surface. Do we need to flour the work surface at this point or-
Lauren Ko:
I do not.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. It's still pretty crumbly so you don't have to worry about it sticking.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. Usually if your dough is sticking you probably-
Jessie Sheehan:
Put in too much-
Lauren Ko:
A little bit too much moisture in there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes. So we turn our dough out onto our work surface. We're going to gently form it into a rounded mound with our hands. We're going to wrap the dough tightly in plastic wrap and then gently press it into a round flat disk about five inches by one inch, and we're going to refrigerate for at least three hours. Why three? I feel like often you see one or even two, but three seemed long to me. Is that just your experience for when the dough is going to be the most easy to work with if you wait that amount of time?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I prefer a dough that's a little bit more formed and relaxed. I think you can certainly roll out pie dough and make a delicious pie in less time, but for a lot of my designs that require a little bit more durability, a little bit more time, it'll just be much easier the longer you let your dough rest. So I basically always let my dough rest overnight. I think three hours is the bare minimum, but I rarely ever reach for a dough that's been sitting that short. I usually make a huge batch of dough the day before, let it rest overnight and then I'll make the pies the day after or I'll toss all that dough in the freezer so that when I am ready to make it, I can pull out dough and let it thaw and have it ready to go.
Jessie Sheehan:
Speaking of that, if you're letting a dough disk that you have frozen thaw, are you doing it in the refrigerator or on the counter and how much time does it need?
Lauren Ko:
I usually do it overnight in the refrigerator if I have the wherewithal to think ahead and plan ahead. If I'm in a rush, I'll let it sit on the counter until it's thawed and then I'll pop it back in the fridge for at least an hour before I really roll it out.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to roll out the pie dough. First question, do you have a particular rolling pin that you like, like one with handles, one that's tapered?
Lauren Ko:
The one that I have is a tapered one, and that's simply because that was the one that was in my kitchen way back when and it's just what I've become accustomed to. So in my workshop I talk a lot about make what you have work for you. So if you have a rolling pin with the movable handles or you have a dowel shaped one, any of those will work for any of these designs. It's just whatever you're most comfortable with is going to be the best one for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to roll one of our discs into an 11 by 15 inch rectangle. We're going to roll the dough onto the rolling pin and then unfurl it onto a sheet of parchment paper. Question for you, would you ever roll it out on the paper?
Lauren Ko:
I don't like to because I find that it slips around and it's a little bit unwieldy, and so it's much easier and more straightforward for me to just roll it out on my countertop and then move it to a parchment sheet.
Jessie Sheehan:
And again, we don't need to flour the countertop with your dough, correct?
Lauren Ko:
Before I roll out the dough, I do put a little bit of flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
So at this point we would-
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I'll flour the work surface. I'll probably dust a little bit of flour on my rolling pin and then I'm constantly moving the dough as I'm rolling to make sure that it's not sticking to the countertop. And if it is, I'll sprinkle a tiny bit of flour on. You can always dust off excess after.
Jessie Sheehan:
We've unfurled the dough onto a sheet of parchment paper and then we're going to use a ruler. What ruler should I picture? Like a thin metal one?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I like stainless steel because again, I can toss that into the dishwasher afterwards. I came into a whole supply of wooden ones for my workshop, so that's what I use. Those are a little trickier. When you wash, you have to make sure they're super dry before you put them away, but pretty much anything will work. I find that any rulers that are super heavy, they can be a little bit more unwieldy. But pretty much we're just using the ruler as a straight edge. And in the book and the recipes, I have to provide specific measurements, but rarely am I measuring the width of my strips. People think I'm going one by one and making sure each ... I'm eyeballing it. And the most important thing is just to make sure you're holding your ruler secure so it doesn't wiggle around and then you get those straight lines. Otherwise, it's approximate. You don't need to stand there and mark out each little strip.
Jessie Sheehan:
If we all want to buy rulers, is it something you buy in a restaurant supply store or is it just a ruler you get at Staples?
Lauren Ko:
I think the Staples ones are fine, as long as the stainless steel ones don't have that cork backing on. I think that gets gross after you wash it a while and it's absorbs. It doesn't feel very sanitary. So stainless steel. I like the ones that are a little bit longer, like 15 inch, 16 inch so they give you lots of leeway for those continuous lines. But yeah, either restaurant store or just office supply store is fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're using the ruler, as you said, as a straight edge, and then we're also using a rolling pastry wheel. Again, I assume it's not a fluted wheel, so almost like a pizza cutter situation you could use.
Lauren Ko:
Basically. The one I use has the crimped wheel on the other side and then just a straight blade on the other side. I've never used the fluted side because I always go with the straight lines, but a pizza cutter would be fine. A sharp paring knife would also work.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to cut the rectangle that we've rolled out width wise. I always get confused. Width means we're going horizontally?
Lauren Ko:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Okay. That's how my brain works. I'm like, what's a width?
Lauren Ko:
I know. Same. Basically you want to cut across the long edge, if that makes sense.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Because it's 11 by 15 inches.
Lauren Ko:
So your strips will be shorter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm. The 11 inches are your sides and the 15 inches are the ones, as they say, facing you as it were.
Lauren Ko:
Yes. So your strips should be 11 inches long.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we are going to cut the rectangle width-wise into 30 quarter-inch strips. But as you said, you're not there measuring. You're just trying to get about 30 strips more or less.
Lauren Ko:
Totally.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it really important that the dough is super cold at this point? Should we be moving between our refrigerator and our counter at this point for fear of the dough getting too soft?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I think it depends on your environment and what the weather is like. When I make this in the summer, it gets a little bit trickier, and I do find that I spend more time putting the dough in the fridge, which is also why I roll the top disc of dough out first so that it can sit in the fridge while I do the rest of the steps. And so if it is getting soft, if you're trying to cut your dough into strips and the dough is sticking to your wheel, you can either flour it or stick it back in the fridge. The colder it is, the easier it will be to work with.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once you've cut your strips, you're going to slide a flat baking sheet. So in other words, I almost never use them anymore, but I remember them from childhood more. It's a baking sheet that has no rims, correct?
Lauren Ko:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
And usually there's one edge of it that's like a little bit raised, which is like how you hold it. Okay. So we're going to use that kind of baking sheet.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. And if you only have rimmed baking sheets ... Sometimes that's all I have to use. I'll flip it down and then put the dough on that side.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's a great tip. That's a great tip.
Lauren Ko:
It just makes it easier to slide the dough off the sheet later.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to grab that parchment with the dough on top of it, slide the baking sheet underneath that piece of parchment and then place that in the refrigerator. Now we're going to roll out our second dough into a 14-inch circle, roll the dough under the rolling pin and then unfurl it into a nine-inch pie pan. I read that you're a fan of metal pie plates as opposed to glass.
Lauren Ko:
Yes. My favorite one is the USA Pan. I've basically never ever gotten soggy bottoms with that pan. And also because I give away so much of what I make, I mostly use those disposable foil tins, the ones that are a little bit sturdier. So there are ones where you pick it up and your pie basically folds in half. I don't buy those. But the disposable ones, they still bake really great and I can give away all these things and not have to worry about getting all my pie plates back.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to take the edges of this dough circle that we just rolled out and we're going to gently ease the dough into the pan, nestling it in ... And I love this so much. Nestling it into the inner elbows of the pie pan. I love that image. And I was literally, as I was reading that, I was looking at my elbows like, oh yeah. Hello, pie pan elbows. I love that. And we're going to trim the excess dough with kitchen shears and we're going to create a one-inch overhang and then fold the overhang back under itself to create a slightly elevated edge. But obviously we're not fluting or anything. So should I picture that extra edge being on top of the rim of the pie plate, like resting on the rim?
Lauren Ko:
Yes. It should definitely be resting on the rim. Anything that hangs over will probably melt off or droop when you bake it. I teach both. So we either do the clean modern edge where we fold it under or we leave extra overhang and then we do the crimped edge at the end.
Jessie Sheehan:
It shouldn't stop within the pie plate. It needs to come out and sit on the top so that we can stretch our strips across.
Lauren Ko:
Correct. Otherwise, you run the risk of your pie also slumping down into the plate.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to make our bluebarb filling. This is one of the things I do love about pie making because often a filling is so simple like this one where basically, we have some fresh or frozen blueberries. We're setting aside about a quarter cup of them. I also love that you can use fresh or frozen. I think that's nice for people because you can make this in any season. So then we're going to combine that with fresh or frozen rhubarb, some sugar, some tapioca starch. Can you tell us why that is your starch of choice?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. It's my thickener of choice because one, it's super affordable and easy to buy. It's readily and widely available at Asian grocery stores where I shop a lot. And also something that I learned from Stella Parks is that when it gels with the fruit juices, the gel is clear as compared to a flour or a cornstarch filling where it tends to be a little bit cloudier. So just aesthetically, I think it looks a little bit more appetizing. And it also thickens with your fruit juices pretty reliably.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to add some lime juice in there, some kosher salt, sugar. This is all in a large bowl and then we're gently folding with a spatula until the fruit pieces are coated with that mixture. And then we're going to pour the filling into the pie shell. And now a moment of truth. We're going to create our spoke. So we're going to place a two-inch circle cutter. I'm picturing a cookie cutter or a biscuit cutter. Is that correct?
Lauren Ko:
Yes. And if you don't have one, you can also use a small bowl or a cup and put it upside down. Anything that's round and that approximate size will work.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we put that in the center of the pie, and we're using this as a reference point as we build our spokes around it. Now we're going to use a small pastry brush and we're going to lightly dab water around the edge of the pie shell. So this is our glue obviously. The water is like our glue for the spokes. I love that we're just using water, but is there a reason we're using water and not egg wash?
Lauren Ko:
Because the design process can get a little complicated, if there are ways that I can simplify every other part of the process, I will. That's why I don't add any other liquids to my pie dough. I try to keep the fillings relatively simple and straightforward. I want to devote all my time and energy and brain space to the design part. So keeping it simple.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we remove our dough strips from the fridge. We're gently going to pick up a strip handling it only from the ends. Why is that important to remember? If we hold it from the middle, will it break?
Lauren Ko:
It probably won't break, but you might squish it a little. You'll ruin that pristine line. And with dough, the golden rule is to keep everything cold. So the more you handle it, the more places you touch it, the more risk you run of warming up your dough, of getting it melty and squishy. So the less you touch it, the better, and just handling it by the ends is enough.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we hold it by the ends and we're going to lay it across the pie with the strip grazing the outside of the circle cutter. So it doesn't really matter for this first piece where we place it as long as a little bit of one of the sides of the strip touches our center cutter.
Lauren Ko:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Great. Now we're going to lightly press the strip into the edges of the pie, which has a little bit of water on it, and that's going to secure our first strip.
Lauren Ko:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now I will go take a nap because I'm so nervous.
Lauren Ko:
And that's the entire technique.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Right. Which is great.
Lauren Ko:
You just repeat that until your pie surface is covered.
Jessie Sheehan:
We take another dough strip, we lay that across the pie. This time the center of the second strip should lay slightly on top of the first and also graze that center circle. But the big thing that I'm getting about where it gets placed is at the end of the strip that's in your left hand is one half inch off of the first strip that's already down. And the one in your right hand is one half inch to the right of the other strip, correct?
Lauren Ko:
Yes. So it sounds really technical, but yes, the end in your left hand is to the left of the previous strip. The end in your right hand is to the right. So basically you're just moving the same direction all the way around the surface of the pie. It can get a little fuzzy because it tends to be an optical illusion. So sometimes people put a couple strips down and they're like, oh no, what's next? You're just moving in the same direction all the way around, laying these straight strips along the surface.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Yeah. I'm just thinking about it very intellectually. I also think that once you're actually doing it it makes sense. It's just when you're reading it, you're like, just a minute.
Lauren Ko:
I don't learn by reading technical instructions, so even writing them was hard because I'm like, oh, this feels and sounds so complicated but it really isn't. You're just laying straight strips left to the left and right to the right. Another tip I have about this design is that because it's an optical illusion, sometimes I see that people have a tendency to want to curve these strips around that center cutter and make it like a spiral vortex, but it's just straight line. So you don't have to think about curving it or wrapping these strips. You're just laying straight lines all the way around.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to continue laying the dough strips in this fashion working our way around the pie surface twice. Explain to me twice. Is that because the second time around we're filling in that half-inch space between each strip?
Lauren Ko:
Sort of. It doesn't always end up that precisely, but basically you just want a double layer all the way around, and that's just your visual cue for knowing that you're done. So sometimes they happen to fall nicely in between the previous strips, but if not, it's also not a deal-breaker.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Good. Now we're going to press the edges of the pie. Again, there's a little bit of water on that edge. Press the edges of the pie to secure the strips in place, and then holding a paring knife at a 45 degree angle to our work surface we're just going to run around the edge of the pie pan to trim the excess dough. We're going to gently remove that center ring, the little biscuit cutter or the cookie cutter, and carefully fill that crater with the reserved blueberries, which I love that.
Lauren Ko:
Purely aesthetic, but still fun.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I wondered if when you first made it, did you not put anything in there and then you're like, oh, this would be a cool spot to put something.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. It just felt like it was missing something. And sometimes I'll even put fresh blueberries after I bake it just for a touch of freshness and just a little bit of a texture contrast.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we fill it with the reserved blueberries. Now we're going to chill the pie in the freezer only just while the oven comes to temp to 425 degrees. Maybe about 20 minutes depending on your oven. Or you can freeze the pie until solid. But basically we're just chilling it before baking. We're going to line a rimmed baking sheet with parchment. We're going to prepare an egg wash. And I love this part. You give us a lot of choices about egg washes. Different kinds of egg wash depending on the finish we want. And I am working on a new cookbook and happen to have an entire recipe page and photo devoted to egg wash. So I really appreciate this.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. There's so many options out there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. It's really important. But I understand that for you say if your wash is just milk, then it's going to be a brown matte finish. If it's egg white, it's going to be a clear and shiny finish, whole egg, yellow and shiny, and then whole leg with splash of heavy cream, deeply golden and shiny. And I love that you just give us all those options. Is that for any of the pies in the book or for this specific pie would you like us to be using a whole egg?
Lauren Ko:
I basically only egg wash my pies when I'm using my plain all-butter pie dough. So if there's no coloring involved, then I want to bring out that deep golden brown. If I'm using any of the other doughs that are naturally colored with fruit juices, vegetable juices, vegetable powders, I want to maintain as much of that color as possible. So I do not egg wash those and I'm a little bit more finicky as I'm baking. But for this particular pie in this dough egg wash, we want it super golden and crusty and beautiful and delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the oven reaches temp, we remove the pie from the freezer, place it on the prepared sheet, and we're going to egg wash it with the whole egg, egg and cream I assume and sprinkle with Demerara sugar. I love the sparkle and crunch that sugar brings to pie crust. Does it affect the design at all?
Lauren Ko:
Not usually. I think as long as your pie is properly chilled, then that sugar doesn't really have an effect. I find that if your dough is warm and a little bit melty and you sprinkle on that sugar, it does start to blend in together. And so it's just visually less crisp, but it will still taste delicious. So either way.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to bake for about 25 minutes, rotate the pie 180 degrees and lower the temp to 350. If our edges are already brown, we'll cover with a shield. Tell me what shield you like. I think I have a bright red silicone one that fits around the edge of the ... I don't even know what brand it is, but that's the one I have.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I also use those because they're reusable and I can again toss them in the dishwasher, but I find them really annoying to use. They're a little fiddly. They don't stay that well and they're hard to handle when they're really hot, but they're just the best option I've found that isn't using a new sheet of foil every single time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. If the top begins to brown excessively, we do rest a sheet of foil lightly on top. I find ... And this is probably because I have a convection oven. But I find my foil is always flying around. Does yours just stay put or do you have to bend it at all to get it to lay there?
Lauren Ko:
Mine generally stays. The convection option doesn't work on my oven, so I never bake on convection. So I guess I don't really have to worry about the fan running, but if the foil is not stable, I'll just maybe press it a little bit in the center so that it has a little bit of structure. But we also don't want it to stick to the surface. So usually it stays.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to continue baking until the filling is bubbling in the center, which is just like a pet peeve of mine. I feel like people don't understand that. First of all, pie needs to be brown. It's not supposed to be ... Even though it's very pretty when it's a pale golden, usually your fruit is not cooked and your pastry isn't even really cooked unless it looks very brown. And then also you actually have to see the fruit with bubbles in the center, not around the edges. Then you're done.
Lauren Ko:
Exactly. Because when we're using these thickening agents like tapioca starch, we want that to cook out otherwise we're going to get this gritty floury taste and texture when we eat it. So it's really important that you're feeling cooks through. One of my biggest baking failures or disasters was under baking a pie, under baking the filling and I have never done it since. Once you do it once, you cannot do it again because it's so gross and devastating.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also it's soupy. The filling isn't set. I feel like you can see that when ... I don't know. Somebody's doing a cooking video or something and it looks gorgeous, but you know that once that thing is sliced, it's just going to collapse.
Lauren Ko:
Exactly. And that crispy flaky crust that you worked so hard on, you lose all the value in that because the soup is just soggifying everything.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally. We're going to check our pie every 30 minutes, rotating the pie and adjusting the shields as necessary for like 80 to a hundred minutes, which I also love. Pie takes a really long time to bake. That's an hour and 20 to an hour and 40. People don't realize that.
Lauren Ko:
I know. And it can be really daunting because that is a huge chunk of time. But yeah, you want it to be cooked. You work so hard on it, you want it to be cooked. You want it to taste delicious. And I bake everything from frozen because once I make my pies, I keep them in the freezer and when I have the opportunity to bake, I bake them straight from the freezer and that just adds more time. But I think it's worth it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think I know, but why are we dropping the temperature from 425 to 350 after 25 minutes? Why do you do the temperature drop?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. I like to blast it at high heat initially just to preserve that pristine design. And then I drop the heat much lower so that we give our filling time to cook all the way through without burning our crust.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you're baking from frozen, you might be adding as much as 30 to 45 minutes to that bake time, just so people know.
Lauren Ko:
And numerical ranges are always a suggestion. Really rely on visual cues. If it's been 50 minutes and your filling is still soupy, then you probably want to keep baking it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you ever use a probe thermometer to pull a pie?
Lauren Ko:
I don't. I probably should if there's a pie top that's like pretty covered. I basically just bake mine until they're bubbling through.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.
Lauren Ko:
For me, I think there's the aesthetic preservation that people are concerned about. They don't want the fruit juices or the filling to bubble through and mar the top design. I feel like that's part of the process. I call it blupage. It makes the crust extra delicious so it's not really something that I work really hard to avoid or prevent. So yeah. I just rely on that visual.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to cool completely on a rack before slicing and serving. And cooling completely can be four hours. You can eat a warm pie, but it also don't you think pie can take a really long time to set up?
Lauren Ko:
It takes so long. But a lot of it is passive time, so you're not hunched over your work surface for a full day. But there is a lot of waiting or a lot of time involved.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you ever slide a warm ish pie ... Not hot, hot, hot into the freezer or refrigerator to cool it down more quickly?
Lauren Ko:
Sometimes I do. Especially with tarts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Me too.
Lauren Ko:
I feel like maybe I shouldn't, but I do it anyways because I'm impatient.
Jessie Sheehan:
Please don't tell. I won't tell if you don't tell. But I do to.
Lauren Ko:
Won't tell anybody.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I'm too impatient.
Lauren Ko:
Except everyone who's listening.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. I wanted to talk about a couple of other recipes from the book that just jumped out at me. The first is Truth or Square. It's an ice cream tart with a funfetti Oreo crust, mint chip ice cream and Andes mint tiles, which basically is everything I love in the world. I think you describe it as one of the easiest, and either it's my word or your word, but yummiest. Please tell me everything about this.
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. That's my favorite recipe to direct people to if they're like, oh, I am not a baker. I'm not an expert. I'm really scared to try these things. This one is so easy. The crust is three ingredients, comes together in 10 minutes and that's all the baking you do. And then you fill it with your favorite ice cream. And then you can focus on the design part, which is basically cutting Andes mints in half and then creating a checkerboard design. So again, things can be as complicated as you would like to make them, or you can keep it as simple and streamlined as matches your time, patience or skill set, and it tastes delicious. Who doesn't love ice cream with Oreos and sprinkles and chocolate and mint as a combination. It's a classic.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, if they don't like that, then I don't like them. That to me is like heaven. And Andes mints, so my grandmother. I'm so all over that.
Lauren Ko:
Very vintage.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Love it. And then one other one I wanted you to tell us a little bit about. And again, these names Truth or Square, this one's called Berried Treasure, but buried is B-E-R-R-I-E-D. Can you tell us about the lavender blueberry whipped cream and the berries and the shortbread in this tart?
Lauren Ko:
Yeah. That one was inspired by summer farmer's market. I'm lucky to have a really lovely one in my neighborhood that runs all year round, but you just cannot beat the produce abundance in the summer season. And there are multiple stands that sell all varieties of berries in all different shades. And I felt like really needed to take advantage of using those colors, those flavors, that gradient in a way that was fresh and also really easy. So you can just plop these berries into this cream that's been infused with lavender or any other flavoring that you want while maximizing the blackberries as well that are in peak season. So super easy crust. That's basically a giant shortbread cookie, a no-cook cream that you whip up that's light and fluffy, and then you put your berries on top. So you can either go with one type of berries or use multiple, or arrange them in rows so you have that really fun ombré gradient or however you want to construct that design. And then you have a really light semi-sweets-ish, also tart and juicy dessert to serve right away.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Lauren. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Lauren Ko:
Oh, right back at you. Thanks so much for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter and California Prunes for their support. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your baking buddies about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. And our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.