Michelle Tam Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Each week I talk to the most interesting culinary folks around. Today I'm chatting with Michelle Tam, who some of you know as Nom Nom Paleo. Michelle was working as a hospital pharmacist on the night shift when she had a food and fitness revelation, and Nom Nom Paleo, the blog, was born. The Nom Nom Paleo universe has grown to include three best-selling cookbooks, including the latest Nom Nom Paleo Let's Go: Simple Feasts and Healthy Eats, an app, and a line of spices. After 12 years on the night shift, Michelle was able to quit her job and focus on Nom Nom Paleo. She doesn't think of herself as an entrepreneur though, but she has clearly built something incredible that has helped lots of folks lead healthier lives. Stay tuned for my chat with Michelle in just a minute.
I'm so excited to talk to Michelle because she and I will be hanging out in person very soon at the Graduate Hotel in Palo Alto for a special networking event. It's taking place Thursday, March 2nd from 5:00 to 7:30 p.m. at President's Terrace, which is Graduate Palo Alto's rooftop restaurant and bar. The hotel is located in downtown Palo Alto, close to the Stanford University campus. Come and meet other folks in the Bombesquad and from the local culinary scene and enjoy snacks and sips from President's Terrace. Then we'll have some talks and a panel discussion with great food folk from the area, including Michelle Tam and Avery Ruzicka of Manresa Bread. Tickets are $30 and include all food, drinks and a copy of our magazine. Head to cherrybombe.com to snag your ticket and we can't wait to see you.
We are also hosting networking events at the Graduate Hotel in Chapel Hill on February 9th and the Graduate Hotel in Tucson on February 23rd. Our Chapel Hill event is sold out, but we still have a few tickets for our Tucson event, so don't delay. If you are not familiar with Graduate Hotels, it's a collection of 33 handcrafted hotels in college towns across the U.S. and U.K. Each one has a unique design inspired by its hometown and their restaurants and lobbies are perfect gathering places for visitors, students, and locals. I'm so excited to check out Graduate Palo Alto. Some of you might not know this, but I used to work for Yahoo Food and would visit Silicon Valley a lot, and cool hotels were in short supply back then, but no longer.
Graduate Palo Alto is a restored historic hotel with lots of the cool touches Graduate is known for, in this case, like hand painted redwood wallpaper and custom art inspired by the university. For more information on our event, visit cherrybombe.com. And for more information on Graduate Hotels, visit graduatehotels.com.
Now let's check in with today's guest, Michelle Tam. Welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Michelle Tam:
Oh, I'm delighted to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
I am delighted to talk to you. It's been such a long time since we saw each other. We figured out, what was it, 2017?
Michelle Tam:
Yeah. And then there was that dark void of the pandemic, which I think we're still in, where time just stopped and I literally... How could that have been three years?
Kerry Diamond:
Time absolutely stopped. I feel you on this end. And you have kids. I think it's even more acute when you have kids because three years in the life of a child is such a big percentage of their life.
Michelle Tam:
Definitely. But I am thankful that they were teenagers when this happened because everybody that had a toddler during pandemic, I can't even imagine trying to do work, and then you're still in charge of all the stuff at home and your kids and then your husband's at home. It sounded nightmarish for all my friends. So with the teens I was like, "Leave me alone. Mom has to work. You have to help out with cooking for yourself." So I think I was luckier than a lot of people in that respect.
Kerry Diamond:
So the boys are cooking for themselves?
Michelle Tam:
If it was up to them, they would just throw nuggets into the air fryer and not eat a vegetable, and so they can... And then my younger son can fry eggs, so that's kind of a good thing. So they can survive, but I don't know that they're thriving if they were to cook for themselves.
Kerry Diamond:
So they're not about to take over Nom Nom Paleo?
Michelle Tam:
No, and I talk about it all the time. I'm like, "You know what? I feel like retiring. Do you guys want to take over?" They're like, "No." And my older son is like, "No, I like gluten. This is never happening." So I'm like, "Okay."
Kerry Diamond:
And you also did have a baby of sorts during the pandemic because you put out a cookbook almost exactly a year ago.
Michelle Tam:
We actually worked on it during pandemic and because my husband and I do all the things, like he does all the photography, and the layout, and the cartoons, and all the artistic stuff, and he used to do that at night and on the weekends. He was still working his regular job, but we had a lot more time to work on things just because he's like, "Oh, we have an hour break between meetings, let's go and shoot this recipe right now." And I'd be like, "Okay." And so we actually got a lot done. And I definitely think the pandemic and being trapped at home and being away from friends and family really did shape with the content, because I think initially I had different ideas of what recipes would get in there, and we already had this whole outline.
But then when we actually started filming things and with everything happening in 2020 and with all the racial reckoning, and I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to change what we're going to put in this book." And I just wanted it to be a love letter to growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area surrounded by all these immigrant communities and just kind of celebrating the food I loved to eat growing up.
Kerry Diamond:
We are going to talk more about the book, Nom Nom Paleo: Let's Go. I always love your titles. And you mentioned your husband, that's Henry Fong, right? Your life partner, your husband, your collaborator.
Michelle Tam:
He has this whole artistic vision for our books and everyone's like, "Oh, artistic vision." It's like we have a crazy technicolor comic book vibe to everything. So it's not like this kind of frou-frou fancy aesthetic, but it's like a fun cartoony vibe.
Kerry Diamond:
And we should note that Henry is a lawyer. It's not like you married an illustrator and book designer.
Michelle Tam:
Exactly. But he is someone that I think has always wanted to be an artist, and he has been doing art ever since he was a child. Being raised by two Chinese immigrant parents is like, art is not all you're going to do with the rest of your life. You have to make a living. And so he ended up going to law school, but he's always loved drawing. And when I met him in college, he actually had a cartoon in the Daily Californian because we went to UC [University of California] Berkeley. And so he's always been cartooning and drawing. And so I think he likes that his day job takes care of that side of the brain. And then he's able to do all this artistic stuff when he helps me out with Nom Nom Paleo.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, you've both had such interesting journeys. We've got so much to cover in this interview, but you did say that the new book, which is your third New York Times best-seller, congratulations, is a bit of a love letter to growing up in San Francisco in the Bay Area. You have one of the best bios on your website, so anybody who's got their own website should take a look at Michelle's because it is sort of the gold standard of bios. But you mentioned something very sweet in there. You said that your mom was a great cook and that you were her little shadow in the kitchen. And I would love to know more about your mom. What was she cooking and why were you so intrigued?
Michelle Tam:
My mom, I think she's a lot of immigrant moms who do everything. They worked and at the same time, they were able to come home and then make a magnificent six-course Cantonese meal every dinnertime, which I don't do at all. In fact, I almost do the opposite. People think I love cooking, but I don't love cooking. I love eating. So I always try to make... That's a whole thing with our cookbooks, and our blog, and our app is I just try to make it as easy as possible to cook. But I feel like my mom did the opposite. And maybe it's because she was working at a job that she didn't particularly love, she was in a foreign country away from her family living with my in-laws. I feel like there was a lot of stuff that she didn't really deal with.
And part of how she probably dealt with that was cooking these elaborate meals. So she was able to take charge of something, and this was something that she was really great at, and everyone acknowledged her for it. But when I say it was her shadow, I really was just her shadow because she wouldn't really let me help her. She would let me do terrible things like peeling raw shrimp and washing the vegetables. I'd be like, "This isn't fun. If this is cooking, I don't want to do it." But I would also be amazed at how she would be able to just make these literally six-course meals at dinnertime plus the soup, and everything would be hot at the table when we all sat down to eat. And so I would always just follow her, and I knew if I just pestered her enough, she would give me a sample of something because Chinese parents aren't always the most effusive with words about how they feel. And so I knew when she would kind of slip me a piece of barbecue pork like, "Oh, Mommy loves me."
Kerry Diamond:
You did go to Berkeley to study food, nutrition, and science.
Michelle Tam:
I never thought that I was going to have a career in food per se, but I've always loved food and I've always loved eating, and I've always been described... There's a Cantonese phrase called 餓底 (ngaw-dai). That means that you live to eat. And that's just how I've... I will drive really far because I've heard there's an amazing taco truck in this parking lot in San Jose, or if I travel anywhere, I just want to find the really delicious spots. Whereas Henry's like, "Oh, well, let's go check out this gallery or whatever." I'm like, "Okay, but I don't know why you'd want to do that." And I actually thought about going into research into food science and creating frankenfoods and maybe getting a Ph.D. in that, but certainly not doing what I do now.
Kerry Diamond:
So you studied food, nutrition and science at Berkeley. You meet your husband while you're there, which is so sweet. You guys have been together forever. Next you go on to get a doctorate in clinical pharmacy. Do I have that right?
Michelle Tam:
Yep. I am a registered drug dealer or a pharmacist.
Kerry Diamond:
What led to that?
Michelle Tam:
I think it was just practicality. I had taken all these pre-med courses, but I didn't want to go to medical school because I didn't want to touch naked people. I didn't want to go to optometry school because I didn't want to stick my hands in people's eyes. I didn't want to be a dentist. I didn't want to be a nurse. There was all these things, and I was like, "What can I be?" And I was like, "Oh, I could be a pharmacist." So that's what I did. And I was like, there's lots of jobs available. I was just being very practical. And I think there's lots of flexibility. You could work at all hours. You could either work community pharmacy or you could work in a hospital, so you could work any time of the day, but I could still make a good living and go eat at great places. So I think that was why I did that. It wasn't like, "Oh, I love studying drugs." It was like, "Ah, this is a good job."
Kerry Diamond:
You wound up working the night shift in a hospital for 12 years. That must have been tough.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah, when I was interested in nutrition and food science, I actually wanted to be some sort of nutrition educator. And then when I went to pharmacy school, I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll do some sort of drug information." And I thought I was going to work at a drug company, but then when I did a residency at a drug company, I was like, "Wow, some of the stuff that they say is true about how drug companies really are a profit driven machine." And so that's when I decided I'd work in a hospital setting, and I worked in the ICU [intensive care unit] for a while. But my schedule was so crazy I couldn't make restaurant reservations.
And so the night position came up and I was like, "Oh, if I work nights, I'll work seven nights on and then I'll have seven nights off and I'll be able to know for the rest of my life when I can make reservations." And so that's why I started working nights. And I did that for 12 years. And I think I worked nights longer than I should have because I discovered paleo and I felt so much better that I continued working longer than I think I should. And then Nom Nom Paleo kind of blew up and I was like, "Oh, I can quit my job." And so that's what I did.
Kerry Diamond:
But how did it affect you? I mean, even though you had seven days on, seven days off, it still must have impacted your relationships, your schedule, everything.
Michelle Tam:
Working nights is hard. And I think when you're young, it's not as bad because you can bounce back because you are literally getting jet lag every other week and you're just having to... And it's terrible. You're going against your circadian rhythms. And so I definitely think I did a lot of damage to myself working nights for as long as I did. But it also enabled me to discover something that made me feel better. And it also gave me the time to develop my blog and do all this stuff. If I could go back and change things, I wouldn't change it. But I don't actually recommend people work nights if they don't have to. And I know that it's not possible. And first responders and hospital workers, you have to work nights, but it's not good for you.
Kerry Diamond:
God bless the folks who work at night, all our restaurant friends, all the frontline workers.
Michelle Tam:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You must have had a huge amount of empathy for all the frontline workers during the pandemic.
Michelle Tam:
Oh, for sure. I felt guilty. I was like, here I am working from home, working for myself, and I am not on the front lines, and I still have tons of friends who work in hospitals, and it was really hard. I felt really guilty.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned that while you were working the night shift, Nom Nom Paleo started to take shape. Now one thing that people might not realize is your husband was really the first one to go on this food and fitness journey. Tell us a little bit about that.
Michelle Tam:
We only have two kids. So when our second son was about two years old, we're like, "Oh, we can finally start exercising and eating right again." Because at this time we're like, "Oh my gosh, we're in our mid-thirties and we just feel sloppy." So we started doing exercise DVDs at home because we couldn't leave the house because we had two small children. And he was like, "Oh, I'm going to research." And he's really good at researching all the things to do. And he was also a blogger, because he actually had a daddy blog years ago. And so he decided to do a fitness blog to chronicle his journey and also to keep himself accountable. And so he had this blog called Fit Bomb, and he decided to do P90x, which are these exercise DVDs that was advertised on late night television.
And he would write about his workouts, but also to keep it interesting. He did research on the people in the videos, and apparently one of the other people in these DVDs is this guy named Mark Sisson. And when he Googled what he was doing, now he has this thing called Mark's Daily Apple. And he was talking about this primal way of eating, and he's like, "Hmm, this is really interesting." So then Henry started looking into that and he is like, "Oh, this is a really interesting way of eating. It's kind of eating the way your ancestors do, eating lots of vegetables and healthy animal proteins and maybe avoiding grains, which is kind of a newer phenomenon." And I remember he told me about this and I was like, "Wow, that sounds crazy." I'm the one that has a nutrition food science major and had it in the nineties.
So that's when it was all about whole grains, no fat, no saturated fat, but that's what I was taught was healthy. I was like, "This way of eating that you're describing sounds like you're going to get a heart attack and die, so if you want to do it, just make sure your insurance premiums are paid up and we're good." And so he tried it and immediately he's like, "I have so much energy. And then he got a six pack immediately and he started doing CrossFit. And at the same time I started doing an exercise DVD. It was like this girl version called Chalean Extreme, and I really actually like them still.
Kerry Diamond:
Shout out to Chalean Extreme.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah, you're supposed to take a picture the first day and 90 days after. And he was like, "Wow, my 90-day picture looks great. How about yours?" And I looked at mine and I was like, "Wow, mine looks worse than when I started." And I was like, "I don't know, maybe there's something to what Henry's talking about." But Henry knows that he can't tell me what to do. I have to pretend like I came up with this decision myself. And so I think just one day I was like, "Nope, I'm going to do this."
And it happened to be we were on a cruise in Alaska, and I think we were in a buffet line, and I saw someone who was in line on oxygen and on a scooter, and I was like, "Maybe I should just try this and see what happens." And I felt so much better. And I think anybody, you find something that you feel so much better doing, you become a super annoying evangelist for it. And so I started telling people about this, and then finally my sister pulled me aside one day and was like, "Michelle, I love you, but you're being super annoying about this whole paleo thing."
And I'm like, "Okay." And so Henry's like, "What you should do is you should just start a blog, just put it up on the internet and then if people want to find it, they can find it." And I was like, "Okay, that sounds great." And so that's how Nom Nom Paleo started as a Tumblr blog where I didn't think anyone would ever read it. And I swore all the time. And it totally changed because initially I was just kind of writing about what you could eat when going out, if you were paleo or if you're going to work, what kind of stuff you would pack. So it wasn't even really a recipe blog, but then I realized, "Oh, I have to actually probably create paleo recipes because I'm modifying everything to make it paleo. I may as well create my own stuff." And that's just kind of how it started.
Kerry Diamond:
And you came up with such a great name. How did Nom Nom Paleo come about?
Michelle Tam:
That that had no forethought whatsoever? That literally was Henry, I think right before me going to work at night, I think he was just setting up something on Tumblr and he, "Oh, if you had a blog, what would you call it?" And I just said, "Oh, Nom Nom Paleo." Because ‘nom nom’ at the time, back in 2011, 2012 was not as annoying as it is now. Now it's a verboten phrase, just like moist. They're like, "Oh, nom nom is the worst." I'm like, "No, I understand." And so then I was like, "Nom Nom Paleo." And so now 10, 11 years later, I'm like, "Oh, no. Nom Nom Paleo was kind of limiting." Especially because I'm definitely not as dogmatic as I used to.
In fact, everyone's always like, "What is paleo?" I'm like, "My definition of paleo is way more lax and chill than anybody else's version." I really think that people should just pay attention to how food makes them feel and then eat the ones that make you feel great. And then when you do decide to eat ones that don't make you feel great, just make sure it's worth it.
Kerry Diamond:
I definitely, during the pandemic, because I was fortunate enough to work from home and spent a lot of time with myself thinking and working, I really saw how food impacts my mood, my emotions, my wellbeing, and in a way that I just hadn't been able to in the previous decades. And I felt like I learned a lot about myself and my relationship to food. Nom Nom Paleo has delighted so many people, and you cover so many different ways that people eat, whether it's Whole 30 or gluten free or traditional paleo. And I think people just need to take a look at your Instagram account to get a really good snapshot of what you're all about because the food just looks so delicious that's on your Instagram. And I forgot you make dessert, you love dessert, and it doesn't matter how you eat right now or what you want to eat. I feel like you've got a lot of solutions and great ideas for people.
Michelle Tam:
Thank you. But the whole dessert thing, I think was a pandemic thing. I think once I was home, I was like, "You know what? I'm going to start making more desserts because I feel like it." And so our latest cookbook actually has a lot more dessert recipes than the previous two, just because I was kind of on a dessert kick.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, let's talk about this book. I've read this about you and Henry as well, that you decided to lean a little bit more into your identities as Asian Americans in this book more so than previous ones. Why was that?
Michelle Tam:
I think because of all of the violence that was happening against Asians in the last two, three years, I was just like, I'm tired of hiding who I was. And I think I've always... I think especially with the generation that my parents were and that the age that I am, because I'm 48, I'm definitely... Like Zoomers these days, like my kids, they're just so open-minded and they just know so much more than I feel like I ever knew. But I know that when I was raised, it was just to fit in and assimilate and not make any waves, try to be as white adjacent as possible. I think I just was like, "No, I'm proud to be an American." Even though a lot of people just automatically assume from looking at me that you're a foreigner. And I'm just going to celebrate who I am.
Kerry Diamond:
Now, your previous two books, I felt like you always just very comfortably navigated multiple cuisines and cultures. We all know now that you just love food in general.
Michelle Tam:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So you were celebrating a lot of different things and just putting out there the way you like to eat.
Michelle Tam:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
So what's different in this book?
Michelle Tam:
I think it really... There are foods that I just missed eating because we were trapped at home. A lot of them were foods that my mom used to cook for special celebrations. We have spatchcock roast duck, I recreated Chinese egg tarts because I miss them. I have pot stickers in there. So there's a lot of recipes that was truly comfort food for me. But at the same time, growing up in the Bay Area, there's a lot of food that is comfort food to me, but true comfort food is the stuff that my mom would cook for me. And that's a lot of the stuff in the book.
Kerry Diamond:
What did your mom think of the third book?
Michelle Tam:
I think that they're proud, but they've never kind of voiced like, "Oh, I think it's really interesting that you mentioned this in this book." Or, "I never thought that you felt this way." There's none of that kind of stuff. So I think she's proud, but I've also kind of learned from my relationship with my mom how I want to change things with my two sons. And so I feel like, you just learn and grow.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you feel personally, Michelle, putting this side of yourself out there?
Michelle Tam:
I just wanted to. And Henry and I, because we do things the way we want to do it, and our publisher's really good about letting us do a lot of what we want to do. And I was like, "I don't care that this might not sell as much because it's not appealing to just everybody. But I know that there's a lot of people like me that this would appeal to, so I'm just going to do this the way I want to."
Kerry Diamond:
So you've had a whole year of this book out in the wild. What's the most popular recipe?
Michelle Tam:
I think the pot stickers are really popular. The paleo sandwich bread is really popular.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what paleo sandwich bread is.
Michelle Tam:
It is a grain-free bread that you can bake and slice up and make sandwiches with.
Kerry Diamond:
How does one make a grain-free bread?
Michelle Tam:
Oh, that one took so much work. So there's cassava flour and cashew nut butter and just a lot of work. And that one was one, my friend, who's a recipe tester who's not paleo, so that's also why I love that she's my recipe tester. She's a sourdough baker, and so she totally helped me make sure it totally worked and seemed like bread.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you enjoy the recipe development part?
Michelle Tam:
I do, if it doesn't take me 20 times to make it. If I hit it within the three to five tries, because I always have to re-do it and test it, and then we shoot it. So there's a lot of times that it gets tested. But if it's something that takes longer than that, then I just get really mad and I just want to give up. But there are certain ones that I don't. I think the pot stickers I resisted for a long time, but when I finally did it, I was like, "Oh, I guess it was worth all the work."
Kerry Diamond:
Walk us through the pot stickers.
Michelle Tam:
The pot stickers. Because I love pot stickers and I love dumplings, and I was like, "There's just no way you can make a grain-free wrapper. You can wrap it in cabbage or something, but it's not going to be a pot sticker." But I had a scallion pancake recipe and Henry's like, "I bet you can turn this into a pot sticker dough.” And I was like, "I don't think so. I think it'll just be gummy." But then one of my readers said that she tried it and then because she said it, I was like, "Oh, then I will try it." And then I got it.
Kerry Diamond:
And what's the filling?
Michelle Tam:
The filling is actually very traditional. It's like pork and cabbage, but instead of soy sauce, I use coconut aminos. I use a lot more fish sauce than is traditional for Cantonese cooking. Coconut aminos is a soy sauce replacement, but it doesn't have the saltiness umami that I like. So I always combine the coconut aminos with fish sauce, but it's got the same seasonings. But I don't put minced ginger because the minced ginger has an enzyme that breaks down pork and makes it really mushy. And so a lot of people are like, "Oh, my mom used to makes it this way, but the meat is really soft." I'm like, "That's because the ginger breaks down." And if you actually like it, then you can keep it. But I don't personally enjoy that texture.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe the pot stickers is the answer to this question, but which recipe is the most personal to you in the new book?
Michelle Tam:
Probably the pot stickers. But I think also the egg tart is probably another really personal one just because I remember going... And my mom actually never made egg tarts at home. That's totally like a dim sum dish. But I just remember going to dim sum with my family, maybe once a month on Sundays we'd drive up to San Francisco and buy all these groceries and then eat dim sum. And that just brings back all these memories.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back. I have a little Cherry Bombe housekeeping. Tickets are now on sale for Cherry Bombe's 2023 Jubilee Conference, taking place Saturday, April 15th, at Center415 in Manhattan. This will be our 10th in-person Jubilee, and we can't wait to see you. Jubilee is always a beautiful day of connection and community, and Jubilee also happens to be the largest gathering of women in and around the food space in the U.S. So don't miss out. For tickets and more information, visit cherrybombe.com.
What else? We launched a brand new podcast. It's called She's My Cherry Pie, and it's hosted by baker and author Jessie Sheehan, and it drops every Saturday morning. Each week Jessie talks to a world-class baker and does a deep dive into one of their signature baked goods. I love this show, and I think you will too. The first few episodes of She's My Cherry Pie are live. So check out Jessie's chats with Claudia Fleming, Joy the Baker, and Joanne Chang. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and you can find the transcripts on cherrybombe.com. Enjoy a slice of our show or go for the whole pie. Now back to our show.
Let's talk about you as a business person because you are fully a successful entrepreneur now. How did that part of you develop?
Michelle Tam:
I feel like I'm one of the worst business people ever. I remember one of my friends who is actually a true entrepreneur. She's asking me something, she's like, "Well, what's the ROI [return on investment] on this?" And I'm like, "What's an ROI?" And so I definitely don't know that I run things well from a business perspective, but I think my ethos for all things Nom Nom Paleo is that whatever I'm creating has to be useful or delightful. And if it's not fun, I'm not going to do it.
And I am in a really lucky position because Henry still has his job and I still have my pharmacy license, and so I have all of these privilege and backup so I can do this. But I do think being able to really create things the way we've wanted to has also been why we're successful because we have this very clear image of how we want to present our materials to people. As I told you before, I don't love cooking, but I love eating. And as a reluctant cook, I always need step-by-step pictures for everything I need little cartoon characters cheering me on. And so those are all things that we've incorporated into our app and our books and on the blog.
Kerry Diamond:
So you mentioned the app. How's the app going? Thousands of people have downloaded the app, I looked at that.
Michelle Tam:
Oh, it's good. App creation is not something I recommend for anybody. So if you're like, "Oh, I want to create an app." Don't do it because it's super expensive. And anytime there's an iOS update, it breaks the app and then all these Android users will say, "How come you don't have an Android app yet?" And you'll be like, "It's because it costs so much money to do." And people don't want to pay more than 99 cents for an app, so don't do it.
Kerry Diamond:
What does your app cost?
Michelle Tam:
$5.99. And it's forever. And I add free recipes every week. I always talk about how I love our app. We went to Webbys for it, and we are really proud of it, but it's so much work to maintain and it just causes so much agita.
Kerry Diamond:
And it's you and Henry. Do you have other members of the Nom Nom Paleo team?
Michelle Tam:
I have a part-time worker who's really amazing that helps out mostly with Facebook because I'm not a big fan of Facebook and you only have so much time. And then she helps with newsletters and other admin stuff. But content creation is all me and Henry.
Kerry Diamond:
In terms of how you monetize everything. I mean, clearly you've got three cookbooks. You've got the $5.99 app, you've got the spices, you offer those on your website, and those are really fun. You put so many free recipes out, even on your website and it's incredible the amount of free content you put out there. So thank you for all of that. But how do you monetize all that?
Michelle Tam:
So ad revenue on the blog. So this is actually something that I didn't even... I think years ago when we started the blog, the ad networks were terrible. And at the time I was afraid that they'd have a McDonald's ad on my site, and it was paleo, and it was really hardcore back then. And so I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to do any ads." But then I was invited to a food blogger retreat, and these were these top food bloggers and they were just talking about how they just made all this money on their blogs. And I was like, "Really, because I kind of make it with affiliate stuff." Back when Amazon affiliates paid money. And the books and I had the app and all these kind of piecemeal ways where I was like, "No, the main way we make money is ads on our site."
And I was like, "What?" I was like, "I tried that once." And then I think I had Google AdSense, which made me maybe $500 a year. And they're like, "No, you should join." And I guess if you're a food blogger, the two main ones that most people are in, if they have enough traffic are AdThrive and Mediavine. And some of them were like, "I don't have a huge presence on social media." If you actually look them up, they maybe have a respectable amount, maybe 20,000 or something or less. But they get maybe 10 million page views a month on their blog. So they were showing me their little dashboards of how much money they made, and these women on these blogs are making millions of dollars a year. And I was like, "I don't have that traffic, but I'm going to throw the ads on my site." Which I know people are like, "The ads are so annoying, I can't stand them."
But that is how I'm able to provide free content because I'm being paid and this way I can pay for our servers and all the things that make running a web business successful. And so all of my friends who are bloggers and I was like, "You need to get enough traffic to get on an ad network because that is how you make money." I mean, until it all crashes, which it could.
Kerry Diamond:
So blogs are not dead from your perspective.
Michelle Tam:
They are not dead, but it is hard. I lucked out because I started so long ago, and because you've been on the internet for as long as you have, you have all these backlinks and you have good Google juice. So even if you weren't optimizing it properly, because mine is old, I lucked out. But there are so many people now who are just starting out and they know exactly how to search for keywords and SEO [search engine optimization]. Like all these things I still don't really understand, but they are making a killing on ads. It's amazing. And a lot of people like, "Oh, those are so annoying to read those super long stories before blog posts." And I'm like, "Yeah, those are actually few and far between." The people who are really successful have really useful content and they work really hard at it. And a lot of them are women and moms, and I'm like props to them for figuring out how to run a business at home and being able to do things on their own terms.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you do many brand partnerships?
Michelle Tam:
No, I don't. I think it's one of those things where I'm always like, "Ugh, I would love to do a brand partnership with so-and-so." But then if I ever get approached by someone, I'm always like, "I don't want to have them tell me what to do, and I don't want to have to send my stuff to get vetted by them." Whenever I share stuff, it really is just very organically I'm like, "Oh, here we are, whatever." Or this is something I really love. And so I've done a few in the past, but I can probably count it on one hand and I know it's stupid and I'm leaving money on the table, and I have no issues with anybody choosing to do that.
Kerry Diamond:
But I think this is so inspiring, Michelle, for folks who are out there who want to be content creators but maybe don't have the relationships, but they have a great idea to see that you can do it on your own like you have.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah, you do have to work super hard. I feel like-
Kerry Diamond:
Not saying it's easy.
Michelle Tam:
No, no. But I think I really... Because I was doing it while I was working nights, I just think I worked so hard and at this age now I'm really ready to retire sometime. I mean, it's not something that's way off in the distance. I'm like, "Oh, what is my escape plan?" Because I am thinking of one, because when it is not fun anymore, I'm going to just parachute out.
Kerry Diamond:
You've put so much great content out there. I would imagine that, like you said, a lot of the back catalog continues to perform well.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah, it definitely needs to be updated. And that's something too is like you always have to create new content, but then the older stuff, you do have to re-shoot stuff and add information that's helpful. But even that, it's a lot to keep up. And so there are many times when I'm like, "I really do think I'm just going to do the things I want to do." Because life is short.
Kerry Diamond:
More power to you, the more you can do that, I say fantastic. Thank you for answering those questions. I think it's super helpful for folks out there. Let's talk about Silicon Valley and Palo Alto. You and I are going to get to hang out in person in just a few weeks, which I'm thrilled about.
Michelle Tam:
I'm so excited.
Kerry Diamond:
It has been a long time since we've seen each other in person. We're doing this really fun event at the Graduate Hotel in Palo Alto. I haven't been to Palo Alto in so long and it was never considered a food scene, and I think that's changed a little bit.
Michelle Tam:
I definitely think it is changing. What I think the Bay Area has always had is that they've had a lot of really great ethnic food, like Indian food in Sunnyvale is amazing. Vietnamese food in San Jose is really amazing. Mexican food up and down the whole peninsula is amazing. But in terms of the upscale stuff, people were still heading up to San Francisco and then Berkeley and Oakland to eat that stuff. But I think more and more of those types of restaurants are coming down here. But then I think also all of those mom-and-pops with the second generation, if their kids have taken over, have just made them amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
I always felt like the area got so overshadowed by San Francisco and Oakland, but now I don't know. The scene seems to be evolving a lot. We'll have to get some of your favorites. Maybe we can share them on... I don't know if you have anything off the top of your head that you absolutely love, but we can maybe get some and share them.
Michelle Tam:
I think we shared some on the Instagram. I mean, I think Zareen's is a really great Pakistani place that is always super crowded. Oh, Ethel's Fancy is really great. It's a nice place to go, but it's nice and casual because they'll play Tame Impala or something in the background, and it's not white tablecloths, but it is somewhere you could impress your parents by taking them.
Kerry Diamond:
What kind of food do they have?
Michelle Tam:
It is, the chef I think trained at the French Laundry, but his mom, I think, is Japanese American from Hawaii. So it's got Japanesey Californian, but with the laid back vibe.
Kerry Diamond:
One thing you definitely have out there is entrepreneurs, and we're going to have a lot of our favorite entrepreneurs at the event, at the Graduate Hotel. And even though you kind of refer to yourself as an accidental entrepreneur, Michelle, nonetheless, you are an entrepreneur and you've built something amazing.
Michelle Tam:
Thank you. I will take that. But my imposter syndrome was like, "Huh?"
Kerry Diamond:
I can tell. So I have to say, I'm so surprised. I know you and I don't know each other that well, but when I look at what you've built, I look at it with just amazement and admiration and you are so modest when you talk about it.
Michelle Tam:
Thank you. I don't know. I think because it's such a solo, or it's an experience where it's Henry and I in our house creating stuff and just throwing it out into the ether, that I forget that other people are impacted by the stuff we create. So I don't know. That could be it.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, Michelle, we're not letting you off the hook just yet. We have a little speed round for you. I would love to know what one of your favorite books on food is. Could be a cookbook, could be a memoir.
Michelle Tam:
I still love Salt F… I mean, I think everyone still is, but I think Salt Fat Acid Heat is just one of my favorites because I just think it just taught such fundamental stuff, but it was such an aha moment for me, and I always refer to it.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food movie?
Michelle Tam:
I love Big Night. I love that. The old school, checkered red tablecloth food that they talked about, and then also kind of the fancy food that the brother makes. So that's a really awesome food movie.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite kitchen tool.
Michelle Tam:
I don't know. I have so many gadgets I like and it changes. Probably my meat thermometer. I think my Thermapen ONE. I'm not one of those people that can just touch meat and know exactly what the temperature is. I do stab it and it makes me feel better when it is in the range I want.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your favorite childhood food?
Michelle Tam:
Probably wantons, and I think my mom made wontons more often than any other type of dumpling because it's still time consuming, but it's an easier dumpling to make.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your snack food of choice?
Michelle Tam:
Ugh, I'm trying to eat more protein because I'm old. I eat a lot of eggs. I know it's not sexy, but I do end up eating a lot of eggs.
Kerry Diamond:
You snack on eggs.
Michelle Tam:
It keeps me, when I force myself to eat eggs as the snack, then I'm not mindless eating. But my true favorite snack is probably dark chocolate. I do snack on that, but I don't consider that a snack. I just consider that a supplement.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you not a snacker?
Michelle Tam:
I'm not a snacker. I'm someone that once I decide to do something, I'm very good at following that, but it takes me a really long time to adopt something. But once I do, I'm like, "Oh, I'm all in."
Kerry Diamond:
What's your footwear of choice in the kitchen? Barefoot?
Michelle Tam:
Barefoot.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you wear shoes?
Michelle Tam:
Chinese family. No shoes in the house.
Kerry Diamond:
So if you drop a knife, so be it.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah, exactly. This toe's got to go.
Kerry Diamond:
This might be a tough one, but is there any motto or mantra that you live by?
Michelle Tam:
This was kind of a joke, but I used to say, I think in Rogue One... I'm not a Star Wars fan at all. Henry is a huge Star Wars nerd, and my two sons are as well. And so I'll watch all the Star Wars movies, and so I watched Rogue One and I was like, "Wow, this is actually a great movie." And one of the characters, their mantra is, "I am one with the force and the force is with you." And so I say it anytime I have to do some public speaking or something. And I know it's so hokey that that is now my mantra.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I am a Star Wars nerd, and I really believe in the force.
Michelle Tam:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
So I totally hear you on that one. Okay. If you had to be stuck on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Michelle Tam:
It would have to be someone that could cook for me. Who would it be? I don't know. That's a really hard one. I don't know. But it would also have to be someone that I'd want to hang out with. I don't know. Ina [Garten], I think I would kidnap her and put her on the island with me.
Kerry Diamond:
I know we all want to be on the island of Ina. Michelle, yay. So much fun to talk to you. And I can't wait. I think the event's almost sold out.
Michelle Tam:
Oh. That's fantastic.
Kerry Diamond:
But that's great. But it's going to be such a fun group of people and I can't wait to see you in person, and this was such a blast to talk to you and to catch up. So thank you so much.
Michelle Tam:
Oh, it was my pleasure.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, Michelle, you're the Bombe.
Michelle Tam:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Michelle Tam of Nom Nom Paleo for joining me today. Don't forget, our event at the Graduate Hotel in Palo Alto is taking place March 2nd. Tickets are available at cherrybombe.com, or click on the link in our show notes. If you have any Silicon Valley dining recos for me, DM me on Instagram at @kerrybombe. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our theme song is by the band, Tralala. This episode was recorded at CityVox Studios in Manhattan. Catherine Baker is our producer, and Jenna Sadhu is our associate producer. Thanks for listening. You are the Bombe.