Nigella Lawson:
It's sometimes good to shine a light on the food that tastes wonderful, but would make a serious Instagrammer or magazine picture editor start biting their lower lip nervously.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, Bombesquad. Welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe, the show that's all about women and food. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Brooklyn, New York. Today's guest is Nigella Lawson, one of my all-time favorites. I love her voice, I love her cookbooks and I love her writing. Her brand new book is called, Cook, Eat, Repeat. I also love that title and it's quintessential Nigella. She sneaks in a few essays, an entire chapter dedicated to rhubarb and a recipe for a curry that uses banana peel. We talk about all of this and more in just a minute. Today's episode is sponsored by Crate&Barrel and Chronicle Books, publisher of the upcoming Tables and Spreads by Shelly Westerhausen. Later in the show, I'll tell you more about Shelley's book, but first, Crate&Barrel. I love Crate&Barrel. I'm a firm believer that every meal is a special occasion. Crate&Barrel has an incredible collection of beautiful modern pieces that will take anything you eat or drink up a notch, thanks to the timeless design and terrific quality of their dinnerware, glassware, and serving pieces. It doesn't matter if you're enjoying a home-cooked meal or having your favorite take-out while binging your latest streaming obsession, it all feels way more festive on tabletop collections by Crate&Barrel. You'll find so many great pieces at affordable prices at Crate&Barrel. I just ordered a set of super chic martini glasses and they were $6.95 a piece. Just what I need to toast the Cherry Bombe event of the year, the Julia Jubilee. Crate&Barrel is a sponsor of our upcoming conference, and you don't want to miss the special Crate&Barrel demos we're doing with Paolo Velez and Nancy Silverton and Mariana Velásquez and Susan Spungen. You can sign up for those at cherrybombe.com. You can also head over to crateandbarrel.com right now and have fun browsing and shopping. Speaking of the Julia Jubilee, our virtual celebration of the life and legacy of Julia Child, our kick-off event is happening April 22nd with Ina Garten and Stanley Tucci. We're bringing these two fab foodies together for the very first time for a chat about the movie Julie and Julia, their wonderful TV programs, and more. All of our Julia Jubilee content is free, but the Stanley and Ina event is a fundraiser for the Food Education Fund, so tickets start at $10.00. Visit cherrybombe.com to snag a ticket and learn more. Thank you to all of our Julia Jubilee sponsors, Kerrygold, Crate&Barrel, Whole Foods, Le Creuset, San Pellegrino, and Kobrand Fine Wine & Spirits. Now, here's my chat with Nigella.
I had so many emotions reading the cookbook, but mostly my biggest takeaway was, I feel like you had such a good time writing that book.
Nigella Lawson:
You are so right. I really, really did. I mean, as you know, when you write, it's such an odd mixture between joy and anguish and they are inextricably linked. Actually, I really was so grateful to be able to romp anywhere I wanted and really do something that felt right for the book. It's idiosyncratic, my books often are, if you compare them to a conventional cookbook, but at the same time it's two-fold really, because it really comes out of my life of cooking and reflecting on why it's an important ritual for me.
Nigella Lawson:
Then it suddenly became, not quite a chronicle of the era of COVID, that's not true and in fact, you'd think Cook, Eat, Repeat would be a reflection of last year, but the title predates it, because I think the title I came up with in 2019.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned that your books are often idiosyncratic, which is absolutely true, but I felt this one more so than others, I mean, and this is probably why we love you so much, Nigella, but you have an entire chapter on rhubarb. Did you just decide you'd be throwing out all the rules?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I knew I wanted to have certain chapters on a few ingredients and a few ideas. I didn't want it to be, oh, well, if I'm going to be doing ingredients, it all has to be ingredients, because then you box yourself in a corner. Of course, what happens is, I always write far too much and even though I did manage to get another 32 pages out of them, I write too much. Some of the chapters, which were going to be in there, had to be dropped, so it's odder because there aren't that many ingredients. There's one chapter called A is for Anchovy and then there is the rhubarb chapter and I guess even though my brown food chapter, ‘A Loving Defense of Brown Food,’ is one food group, I approached it in that way. Then the other things were just, things I wanted to talk about and write about and connect with people over. In that sense I suppose had I written less, it probably would have had more of each sort of thing, but I quite like it as it is in that way, there are many fewer chapters than I might have thought, but they meander more and take in other things along their way.
Kerry Diamond:
The table of contents is so brilliant, and you've referred to a few of them, ‘A is for Anchovy,’ is so great. You said you didn't come up with this term, but I had never heard anchovy referred to as bacon of the sea.
Nigella Lawson:
No, do you know what, I wish I knew who had, but it is wonderful, isn't it?
Kerry Diamond:
It is-
Nigella Lawson:
It's such a wonderful phrase. I mean the thing is, the danger of having that sort of approach is that people look through it and think, "Oh, I don't like rhubarb and I don't like anchovies." On the other hand, I would never want to lure someone into a book if they thought they wouldn't like it, but what I have found really endearing, because the book came out in the UK earlier, is how many people who thought they didn't like anchovies, had been brave and tried on or two of the recipes. I'm quite clear about which ones are full on anchovy and which ones just are, the pleasant one with the umami. It's rather lovely to talk about things you adore and I'm hard-pressed to find food I don't like, but food that I feel is such a part of my cooking life, in fact has a ritualistic part, it just feel wonderful to talk about that. I think for many people, rhubarb has not great connotations, because it's, I don't know, it's different for us, we think of it at school and people used to put a very fibrous khaki mush on your plate and it was hideous. I feel now everyone, there's much more availability of that wonderful pink rhubarb, which lifts the senses and is so, has that fabulous sherbertyness.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, you talk about the forced rhubarb.
Nigella Lawson:
We have forced rhubarb and I have given, obviously, the nearest equivalent in the States and it's sounds quite poetic, it's known as the rhubarb triangle. It's that area in the north of England and they first plant it outside and they take it in and they grow it under cover and under candle light only, so it's rather a wonderful image isn't it? They're very proud of it.
Kerry Diamond:
It sounds like an old English mystery novel or something.
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah, it does, doesn't it?
Kerry Diamond:
The murder rhubarb triangle death.
Nigella Lawson:
I know, it does sound that, with someone with a lot of pink stalks on top of them.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about one of the rhubarb recipes? What's your favorite?
Nigella Lawson:
At it's simplest, I like what you could either call a rhubarb compote or a roast rhubarb. I find it is the best way of keeping the flavor, because you're not adding liquid and also the color. That one, you just take rhubarb and then, it's terrifying the amount of sugar you put on it, but-
Kerry Diamond:
You had a very good King Lear reference in there, I saw, rhubarb love sugar as meat loves salt.
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that.
Nigella Lawson:
You need that. You roast it and it's just in itself, I put ... I'm going to try and say it in American, aluminum over the tin. As much as possible you want the rhubarb cut into lengths depending, so I would do shorter lengths for a stubby stick of rhubarb and elegant, longer lengths for the skinny sticks. Put over the sugar, put foil as I would call it, on top, and roast it. Now, just for, it really depends, you have to start looking, generally for 30 to 40 minutes. Then you've got this ridiculously pink compote. If you leave it in the oven pan, after it comes out, it gets almost candied and then you lift the rhubarb out of the liquid and may as well carry on making it, and I use the liquid, I boil it down a bit and I use it to add to drinks, or anything, a bit of ice cream. If you had some vanilla ice cream in your freezer, you put a bit of rhubarb syrup and a few chopped pistachios, that's low effort and wonderful.
From that comes, I think, perhaps one of the greatest showcases for rhubarb, which is, in this country, rhubarb and custard are an absolutely quintessential pairing. When I was very young, we used to buy this hard candy that was yellow on one side and pink on the other, which was meant to be rhubarb and custard. For me, that's a trifle and it's a spectacular trifle. I mean it's hard to make a trifle if you haven't got a lot of people round your table, but I somehow manage it.
Kerry Diamond:
I was just thinking, you could make a trifle for one, in a glass, for yourself.
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, yes, you really could, you really, really could and I'm not hesitant about doing that. I mean I'd love to have more than one, but that's ... Because I aways thought that's oh, for another day. I think that really, but I've got a cake as well, which perhaps draws on the American baking tradition more, because it draws on a rather fabulously toasted marshmallow frosting that, and I took my guidance from Stella Parks' baked tart, who I call the cake consigliere, because she's so precise. Then it's rather wonderful, because you have the sharpness of rhubarb and the sweetness of the frosting, and yeah, plus the joy of wielding a blowtorch.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, and people I know, can't see the photo, but all those fun little peaks and-
Nigella Lawson:
It's beautiful, isn't it? I know, it's a very tender cake. I mean in that sense, it's pretty easy to make, it takes a while. My recipes aren't complicated, because I couldn't cook something complicated even if I tried. I'm very keen in the book often to say, "Well, this has got quite a few processes, none of them is difficult." I do think there's a tendency for people to confuse time-consuming and difficult. They're different, so I think you need to say, which is which. Of course, I write at great lengths and people sometimes think, "That means a recipe is convoluted." I fear, in this huge drive to make recipes not turn a page in cookbooks, key guidance is left out, all in the sake of brevity, so shorter doesn't always mean simpler to follow.
Kerry Diamond:
No, absolutely, and the book is such a joy to read and for folks who love your writing, I mean, they will absolutely love this cookbook. Nigella, tell me what your Game of Thrones glove is?
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, I wish, I'm not in my kitchen now. Really it's a glove, but instead of me, so if you imagine it, it's slightly stretchy, but the thread is metallic. It's not like chain mail, but it's a bit like you've got some dark, glinting, it's like a glint glove as if it's a bit of armor. Because I am one of the clumsiest people and I always say to people, "I am a complete kitchen klutz." You don't need to have the dexterity to be allowed to cook, although obviously, I'm having to sweep up my floor a lot. I really love having vegetables, all of them cut on a mandoline, so it's very thin. I don't like those guards you get and I can't trust myself not having cut protection.
You just get these gloves and just because I don't want to be the source of woundings in other people, I have said any time I use a mandoline in a recipe, I say, "I forbid you to use it without ..." It's called a cut-resistant glove or a Game of Thrones glove and it's very useful.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I have to find that, because I don't own a mandoline for that express purpose.
Nigella Lawson:
No, no, well, I think Microplane might make them, anyway, it's liberating, it's fabulous.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, I'm going to find that glove and then I'm going to buy a mandoline. Because I've had to skip all these great recipes.
Nigella Lawson:
No, I know, because it's too frightening.
Kerry Diamond:
It is. I would use that-
Nigella Lawson:
You need to get quite a sturdy mandoline.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, okay.
Nigella Lawson:
As well, because then, oh my God, it's so wonderful, it makes ... I think in life, sometimes doing things, and this is true whether it's cooking or not, but I always think you learn lessons in the kitchen. Doing things that you feel, you are not the sort of person who can do that, actually gives you a lot of confidence, which can translate to other spheres as well. Because really, I know that often restaurant chefs feel it's natural to have to go to have stitches put in their hand a lot, but no normal person would want that, so it's so easy to arm yourself against it. I'm always whipping my mandoline out now.
Kerry Diamond:
When you called it a Game of Thrones glove, I envisioned one of those gloves that they sometimes wear to shuck oysters. Yeah, I was trying to picture you with a chain mail glove.
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, well, I would have loved to.
Kerry Diamond:
That little bit didn't make sense.
Nigella Lawson:
I would have loved that. The chain mail does work, but obviously they make them just in man hand size.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, yes.
Nigella Lawson:
Then its not safe. I'd buy a pair of them if they fitted and I don't have particularly small hands, yeah. Also, this is probably, one shouldn't say this, the other day I had some sea urchins and I used my mandoline gloves to prepare them. Then rather than wash them in the washing machine, I put them in the dishwasher. Because I thought, I'd bung them in when I'm doing the dishes.
Kerry Diamond:
Why not? That's a good tip. Okay, let's talk, and you might be a little tired talking about this, because I know it was a hit in the UK, but banana peel, you have a banana peel curry recipe. I'll confess, I never cooked with banana peel and I did a little homework and saw that it is done in Indian and Brazilian cuisines. Tell us about your curry, how one can cook with banana peel?
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah, well I just thought, I have a couple of banana breads and a banana, what I would call a warm puddingy cake. Yeah, I'm so bad at waste, I don't like it. I thought, "Oh, I'm putting so many of these peels in the bin." I thought, "I'm sure I remember that they could be eaten." I looked it up and they could, so I just was a bit frightened, but I thought, "I have to try it." It seemed to me that something with an aromatic sauce would be ... So this sort of curry, but it's very much, it's as I say, it's more an aromatic stew.
I had a cauliflower and I also used some of the leaves. You have to soak the peels first. They don't look like you're desperate to eat them, by the time they're pretty mottled with black and slightly flabby. There's an astonishing thing which is, when you've cooked them, they take on some of the flavors or the texture is softened by the sauce it's in, but at the same time you can't believe how delicate they are, because they're a delicate floral or mineral taste. No one would know they were that. They look a bit like you ... I mean not that one would do this, it looks a bit like you had peeled eggplant and had the skin and maybe a quarter of an inch or an eighth of an inch of the flesh of the eggplant. They have more of that sort of flavor which is, and that texture which is slightly velvety when it's been cooked a long time. Yes, you have to take a leap of faith the first time you eat them, but it is, which I understand, I mean nothing compared to the leap of faith you'd have had to take the first time you ate an artichoke however, or a potato. It's lovely to think you can do that and I think it lends itself to many other different ways of cooking it. Although I don't know that I'd want to be cooking six banana peels a week, actually you could quite easily, and I think having soaked them, I think you could also puree them and add them for bulk when you bake or for certain other things. I think there's quite a lot of potential there for a certain playing about in the kitchen. It's just for me, I always find it gratifying, the less I throw away the happier I am.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, that's good to know. I have some practical banana peel questions though. You're using the ones that you were making banana bread with. I let my bananas really go far, when I'm making-
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah, well, I do too.
Kerry Diamond:
Using them for-
Nigella Lawson:
As I say, they're to beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you recommend the darker banana peels? Or can you use a yellow banana peel?
Nigella Lawson:
I would worry. I think what you need. It doesn't matter if it's not really dark, but you know how bananas go from being a fairly inflexible peel when they're quite yellow and that even before they go, really mine look like they're about to walk off in some dark place by themselves. Before they get like that, you maybe you wouldn't want that, so you could actually feel there's a bit more give and they're softer. I think as long as they're not actually feeling a bit like they're that plastic-reinforced cardboard, which they are a bit, the soaking helps. I suspect if they were less dark you would probably have to cook them for longer. I mean when you cook, you always have to make adjustments on that, but I don't think I'd want it if it was crunchy and bright yellow.
Kerry Diamond:
You talk about how much you hate waste in the kitchen and when I was reading your book, so not only do you use pasta water, that a lot of us now know to use, but you also use potato water. I've never-
Nigella Lawson:
Potato water, it's like, if you cook, boil potatoes and keep the water, let it get cold and use that for bread making. It's actually like that, the milk roux, the Tang- ... I don't know how to pronounce it, Tangzhong. Do you know what I mean? That Japanese way of making bread so it's extra soft, when you make a flour paste and let it get cold. “It gelatinizes,” I think is the popular expression, so it just makes your bread stay fresh for longer and makes it a bit, a lot more, soft bounciness.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so you take the potato water and you put in the fridge, how long can you keep it for?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I think you could probably keep it for about five days. I keep it all, but I mean I would be overrun with it if I didn't use it, so I tend to measure a bit more than I need in the jug. I wait until it's properly cold in the pan. I scoop the potatoes out, because I want to get all the bits that have settled to the bottom, which is all the starch. If I'm making bread the next day I just leave it out in the kitchen, but if I ... Well, I come from a cold island, but otherwise you could leave it for about five days. I mean it says in the book, but I always have to refer to the book, because when I'm cooking for myself at home, I often go wildly, wildly above what I'm allowed to say, so check.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a nice script.
Nigella Lawson:
It's really wonderful and actually and I write about this too, if you don't have potato water and this is something I tried years ago and it does work, I'm not above putting instant mashed potato powder in with the flour and doing it that way too.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, okay. You have a lot of fun recipes about bread, essays about bread, you're love of toast comes through loud and clear in the book. Tell us, a version of Jim Lahey's no-knead famous-bread-
Nigella Lawson:
Yes, so it's very much his, but I've just talked about it. I mean I feel that I'm not a chef who has to talk about originality, I always, even when I change a recipe completely, I credit where it first came from or how it entered my life anyway. I haven't changed his very much, apart from I add a bit of lemon juice and I don't know what he's going to think when I offer the mashed potato powder. I've also got a very, old-fashioned sandwich loaf, that's ridiculously easy, in fact which was a sour-cream loaf which I came across from an Australian, well, Australian-British baker called Dan Lepard. What I did, because during lockdown and I was here by myself, I wasn't doing excellent milk management and I used spoilt milk. I know a lot of people ... I think that's, so I'd some spoilt milk and I just add bit of butter as well, and it's one of those loaves that you can't quite believe how easy it is, because it just has three 10 second kneads, 10 minutes apart. For people who have never made bread before, I mean I think it's pretty much foolproof and is ... I love sourdough and I love Jim Lahey's bread and I like those ones that really give your jaw a bit of a workout, but sometimes you want a comforting sandwich with old-fashioned toast and this makes incredible toast.
Kerry Diamond:
You seem to have some rules about how to butter the toast.
Nigella Lawson:
Well, do you know what, I did it on TV, as a rule. I was saying I have a double buttering approach. I toast the bread. The minute it's out of the toaster I do a fairly thin layer, by my standards, a fairly thin layer of butter, unsalted. You call that sweet butter don't you, or unsalted butter?
Kerry Diamond:
Unsalted now, yeah.
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah, so unless I've got incredibly good French or Cornish butter with sea salt in it, I do a thin layer of butter, which goes in and gives you that rather wonderful, when you bite it and it softens the bread. I call it a ‘crumpety bite,’ because it's a bit like the way butter goes through the holes in a crumpet. Then I wait a bit and that's the hardest part. Then I put a bit more butter on top, so it doesn't all melt, so I have some pooled and some solid bits of butter. Then I use Maldon salt, but you could use, if it's good, kosher salt, but Maldon salt's got a softer flake. I put that Maldon salt on top and may I say, it is excellent.
Kerry Diamond:
Sometimes you'll use anchovies on top of that, back to ‘A is for Anchovies.’
Nigella Lawson:
I do. If I'm having anchovies on toast, I want the bread to be quite thin, but I actually like thicker bread if I'm having just bread and butter and anchovies, which I like. I think Jim Lahey's bread is great for that. I mean all bread is good for that, but definitely anchovies on butter and sometimes maybe a bit of char-grilled red bell pepper is wonderful too. I remember being in Milan and having that. That was their appetizer and I thought, "Oh, this is fantastic."
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds so good. Speaking of the anchovies, I meant to ask you earlier, you refer to a technique a lot in the book, that I love so much, melting anchovies. For the folks who aren't anchovy fans, can you walk through what it means to melt an anchovy?
Nigella Lawson:
Yes, it's very odd, the idea of melting a fish, but essentially, of course, because the anchovies have been in a tin and they're in oil, they're quite delicate. When you start a recipe off, even if you chop them, so if you've got a skillet or a pan in front of you, I would put a bit of olive oil, put however how many filets I want, and I find the more you eat them the more you have to add more filets, a bit like chili, you want more and more.
Nigella Lawson:
With a wooden spoon or any kind of spatula, not a soft one, as I cook I stir and as it gets warm it's as if the anchovy is beginning to dissolve into the oil and you're left with ... You can see it's there's some minty-brown flecks in the oil, but essentially that could start being, you add onions to it for a stew, it really highlights the sweetness of lamb if you're cooking it that way. Or, if I was making a quick but murky-looking pasta dish, a bit like Aglio Olio e Peperoncino, you just have anchovies there too. Then mince or grate in a bit of garlic and some chili flakes or crushed chili. It's so wonderful and I feel that it's sometimes good to shine a light on the food that tastes wonderful but would make a serious Instagrammer or magazine picture editor start biting their lower lip nervously. Because you can do that, as long as you say to people, "It is a bit murky." For example, that I often like to do that with butter, rather than olive oil, or maybe a bit of olive oil. Do the anchovies and toss some just cooked carrots in. I'm not a huge fan of cooked carrots, but you add that rich depth ... Saltiness sounds sharp, because it's deeper than that, it's a resonance, like a saltiness resonance. You add that to carrots and it completely makes you eat them in totally different way and maybe a little zing of lemon juice. I suppose sometimes you have to sacrifice picture book pretty for pleasure. For me it's easy enough, that's a swap I'm willing to do.
Kerry Diamond:
I'll be right back with Nigella after this word from Chronicle Books. I'm guessing more than a few of you have a copy of Shelley Westerhausen's very popular book, Platters and Boards. Well, Shelley has a wonderful follow-up to her best-selling book coming out very soon, it's called Tables and Spreads: A Go-To Guide for Beautiful Snacks, Intimate Gatherings and Inviting Feasts. This beautifully photographed recipe collection and styling guide from the creator of the ‘Vegetarian Ventures Blog,’ shows you how to easily create lovely, abundant spreads for every occasion. Whether it's a snack, dinner for one, or a burrata bar, a polenta spread, or a savory focaccia party. I would like an invitation to a savory focaccia party. Anyway, Shelley's included more than 60 easy-to-prepare recipes plus behind-the-scenes insights into creating a beautiful inviting table for every occasion. You'll find tips on choosing a theme, styling your food in creative ways and working with linens, flowers and the music. Platters and Boards is perfect of those seeking high-impact results with easily sourced ingredients. You can find Platters and Boards at your favorite book store starting May 4th. Now, back to Nigella. I love the title, ‘A is for Anchovies,’ so much. It was making me think about other letters in the Nigella alphabet of food. If A is for Anchovy, what would B be for?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, actually, I have a checkered history with beet and there was going to be a chapter called, ‘Beet and Me.’ I couldn't fit it in, so I smuggled a few beet recipes in. There's, at the opposite spectrum of the murkiness of anchovy-flecked oil is, I have this ridiculously pink, it looks like it's going to be all gentle and it's really fierce and it's a beet, yogurt, chili and ginger sauce, which you have cold. Which adds zing to anything and is so superbly cheering in every aspect. C would have to be chicken. I have written a lot about chicken, but definitely. If you wanted D, well, would I want dates? Now, I'm just guessing what D would be. I don't know, but you could carry on and it would be fun.
Kerry Diamond:
Don't worry, I won't make you go through the whole alphabet though.
Nigella Lawson:
I don't mind. I don't think we've got enough time. I think everyone would stop this, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your book and the promotion of the book. Because you have two amazing events coming up, and when I saw the online conversation with, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like the Marvel universe of your favorite culinary personalities. You'll be talking with Ina Garten, right?
Nigella Lawson:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you and Ina know each other?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, it's really odd, we're connected in that my agent, he died a few years ago, my last agent was a friend of hers, so we used do messages and do that. I connected with her and I've been on one of her shows, I did it from the UK. I have to say, I absolutely adore her and I think she's wonderful, so that's great. Then I'm doing one with Yotam Ottolenghi, which will be great, but I mean he's a very good friend of mine, so it's often ... When it's someone you know a lot, you have to be a bit careful, because you could start veering off-topic and going to going to chit chat or say things you shouldn't. I'm not actually a big garden person, but I don't know, but it is really thrilling.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, so people can buy tickets to those and we'll share the information for that at the end. I was just laughing, thinking, "If it was you Ina and Yotam, I think people's heads would explode with happiness."
Nigella Lawson:
Well, perhaps we should be, but we're not altogether on a sofa, but the way we do it is fine. I'm sorry I can't come to the States for the launch. I would be willing to brave it as this stage, having had my vaccination, but it's not permitted and I respect that, obviously.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, how did you fare during lockdown? Because lockdown in the UK was very serious?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, yes, but I actually took it more seriously. I went into lockdown before the government rather tardily instructed us to go into lockdown. I was already in lockdown. Then, I was very serious about it and I treated myself as if I was a vulnerable 85-year-old. Because I am my children's only parent and I just couldn't afford to endanger my health on that basis. Also, I was really frightened that I wouldn't get my book done, so I thought, "I can't risk it." We were permitted to go outside for a walk every day and I didn't even do that for the first ... Until I finished the book I didn't go out. I mean having said that, I exercise for an hour every day, inside, and I have a little garden I could sit in. Britain came out of lockdown for a bit, in summer, but I wouldn't, I stayed in. I was by myself actually, I was in solitary confinement for months and the book was my companion, writing it.
Kerry Diamond:
I could tell that a little bit, because you referenced a lot, eating by yourself, in the book.
Nigella Lawson:
Yes, I have to say, although it's odd for me not to cook for others, although I did sometimes, I had those deli type boxes and I'd either leave things out or give some to my neighbor or send food over if someone's not well or had a baby, so I did do that. Mostly, it was just cooking for myself and in a different way than normal. Because normally when I cook for myself, which I do often, it's within the context of maybe eating with other people at other times, either going out or eating or cooking for them. Therefore, maybe when I'm there I don't need to cook that much, but I wasn't doing any of that, so my evening meals became a little ceremony where I would just think, "What do I want to eat and how will I do it?" Also, I was I say, re-testing, I had to change one chapter. I had a chapter that was going to be called, ‘How to Invite Your Friends To Dinner Without Hating Them Or Yourself.’
That suddenly, obviously was inappropriate, and so I did want to talk about how the evening meal can make a difference, generally, in a more down-home way. I added quite a few recipes for one, either at the end of a recipe or in the heading to the recipe I'd say, "Well, just use the whole chicken, this is how to go about it if it's just for one." I felt, the more versions I could give, of a recipe, so it would suit different people doing different things or a different sized tables. I felt the more ... It was doing the best I could for each recipe and for each reader. I like that. I'm an obsessive tester and re-tester. Normally I have an assistant who just, well, the way Freda is with me and she'd go, "Right, stop that, you've done that, so often." There's no-one here to tell me no to, so I went on and on and on and on and wallowed, and I loved that.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, so we know you cooked, we know you worked out, you said you worked out an hour each day. What else did you do to-
Nigella Lawson:
Well, six days a week, I did it six days a week.
Kerry Diamond:
Take a day off, okay, good. Take the Sunday off. What else did you do to take care of yourself? Did you read? Did you meditate?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, no I didn't meditate. Actually I'm such a-
Kerry Diamond:
Or in some ways your cooking is your meditation, you work on it.
Nigella Lawson:
Well, yeah, but I did quite a lot of lounging about, staring into the middle distance. Having been someone that always reads, my concentration went a bit. I couldn't watch television or I couldn't read, yet, somehow my time was very full. I was writing a book for most of the time and then editing, editing remotely is difficult, it's quite tiring. The photo shoot was very late, because we couldn't do it. I didn't even know whether it would happen. Then, in the brief summer thing, even though I said I kept myself under lockdown, except for one thing, which is I made a TV series here, so I was pretty busy. The fact that I spent a lot of time, again not reading, I got into audiobooks more, to send myself to sleep, if I couldn't sleep.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, any recommendations?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I'll tell you what I really love, Emily Nussbaum's, I Like To Watch. It's an anthology of her TV reviews in The New Yorker. Now, I don't watch a great deal of television, so I don't even know about, but they're such beautifully written pieces about culture, about society, about ideas, that I found that wonderful. I think being engaged with ... Connected, I would look at it the other way, being connected to an engaging intelligence is wonderful. I also, the one book that really did keep me going and I read it over and over again and also listen on audible over and over again, is a book by Bess Kalb and it's, Nobody Will Tell You This But Me. I can say it's about ... If I say what it is it sounds so different than the ... It's an extraordinarily written and structured book and it's as if the posthumous members of her ... Her recently deceased grandmother, who's got a terrific voice, but it's also the story of the Russian dolls of mothers and daughters and suffering and ... It's about so much and it sounds cliché to say, it makes you really laugh and it makes you cry, but it is that book. I think it is truly great and I mean I do think it's really great and I know that it had come out, I think at the beginning of lockdown, or at the beginning of the whole thing and didn't ... I think it should have been reviewed everywhere and it hasn't been reviewed as much. I mean of course, anyone who reads it sees its greatness, but I mean, I could pass that book onto everyone, I have bought ... I think I made them sell out here, I bought so many and then I did a tweet or something about it. Because you really feel, do you know when a book is wonderful and you want to give it to someone? I once read a fabulous quotation saying, "Seeing someone read a book you love is like having a book recommended person." I rather like that.
Kerry Diamond:
That's the sad part about people reading on their phones now, you can't see what people are reading in public anymore.
Nigella Lawson:
I know, and as a nosy person, it is a pity.
Kerry Diamond:
I used to love being on the subway back in the day when everybody would read a book. Exactly, you could tell a lot about the people by what they were reading.
Nigella Lawson:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, Nigella, we have to let you go in a few minutes, so we'll do a quick little speed round with you.
Nigella Lawson:
Bear in mind that my year of lockdown has ... You say speed round, I feel speed will not be of the essence, so I apologize.
Kerry Diamond:
We shouldn't even call it a speed round, because it winds up not even being a speed round. Coffee, tea or something else?
Nigella Lawson:
Tea. I'm a tea drinker.
Kerry Diamond:
Hod do you take it?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I have recently started having it black sometimes, but then you have to have good tea. I like strong teabag tea and I like it slightly darker than ... They used to have pantyhose we'd call American tan, I like it on the dark side. I have been having black tea sometimes, but then I put leaves in the mesh for minute and it gets a bit complicated, but no, tea.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Nigella Lawson:
I drink far too much of it.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your last pantry purchase?
Nigella Lawson:
My last pantry purchase, because, I have so many of them, I'm embarrassed, I ...
Kerry Diamond:
You have so many purchases you're embarrassed? Or so many pantries your-
Nigella Lawson:
No. No, no, no, I wouldn't have enough pantries, there's no such thing. No, I'm trying to think, absolutely, not only did I do an awful of pantry buying, but then I'm quite good at taking things off. I think my most recent purchase was, do you know that wonderful chili cress oil? There's a company here which I kept reading about and I had to order the stuff and it's in Ireland. They do these wheys, which I think is the Japanese take on it and they do a black bean whey that is so wonderful. I mean, I am a condiment queen, so there are so many condiments I want to be getting all of them, that's the most recent, but it won't be the last.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a tough time to be a condiment queen, because I think that we entered before a few weeks ago and it was like, have we even reached peak condiments? Because it just seems like there's so many incredible condiments being-
Nigella Lawson:
There are, but I try and keep things to a minimum, because otherwise it all goes a bit wrong. I am really, there are certain ones I need to have. Although I make this fermented hot sauce in the book, which I have that a lot. Taking care of my nitro zone and it's very, very hot, which I love.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you listen to music in the kitchen when you cook?
Nigella Lawson:
No, I don't. I don't listen to music-
Kerry Diamond:
You don't?
Nigella Lawson:
No, I don't. I love the sound of the cooking and I don't ... Background music is not for me. I feel like, "Oh, my brain is going every which way." However, I do listen to music when I do the dishes. Because then I'm dancing along with it.
Kerry Diamond:
What do you listen to when you do the dishes?
Nigella Lawson:
A lot of tunes from my youth, my distant youth, though I'm not quite glad to have it distant. I might have some Communards, a lot of disco, then a few more things in few more weeks. I have to be able to dance to them, I'm not a listener to music, I like to dance. Actually, it makes a big difference to washing up or doing these chores.
Kerry Diamond:
I did listen to the Communards and I don't think I have heard anyone refer to them in about, I won't even say how many decades.
Nigella Lawson:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, so the last question. When everybody can travel safely again, where's the first place you'd love to travel to?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I have a trio I'd like to do, but not at the same time. I want to go to New York, I miss New York. I need to go to Venice and I'd like to go to Sydney.
Kerry Diamond:
Why Venice and why Sydney?
Nigella Lawson:
Well, I spent a lot of time in Venice when I was younger. I used to go once a year and I used to hire a little apartment. I mean it's so long ago, pre Airbnb and everything. I feel Venice, New York and Sydney are ... There's so many beautiful places I want to go, they're the cities I know well and feel, it's not like a vacation, that I could go and say, "Right, I'm going to rent an apartment for a month and live here and be part of the life." Because I think, a certain feeling that you could have a month or even two months, because essentially it doesn't matter where I work, really would be a help to find this antidote to being in the same four walls for a year. Whereas, the notion of just a vacation, it's not my strong point in life, but the idea that you go somewhere and you can cook your dinner and I've got friends in ... Well, I haven't really got friends in Venice, but I don't mind just gazing out at the lagoon, that's fine. Maybe one or two friends, but not many. I suppose they're cities which I ... Sydney and New York and Venice, are cities which I feel mean a lot in my life and therefore I want to go back. I mean actually, there are some places I've never been to and I'd love to to go Japan, but I feel very much that sense of, I need to return to these beautiful cities.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Well, New York misses you, I know that much. Congratulations Nigella, the book is fabulous.
Nigella Lawson:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Nigella Lawson for joining us, it's always a treat when Nigella comes by. Her new book is called, Cook, Eat, Repeat and it's out April 20th. For more information on her events with Ina Garten and Yotam Ottolenghi visit nigella.com.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you to Crate&Barrell and Tables and Spreads by Shelley Westerhausen for supporting this episode. Radio Cherry Bombe is produced by Cherry Bombe Media. This episode was edited and engineered by Jenna Sadhu. Thanks for listening everybody, you are the bombe.