Shilpa Uskokovic Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Our guest today is Shilpa Uskokovic. Shilpa is the senior food editor at Bon Appétit and the co-owner of Hani's Bakery in New York City, which she runs with her husband, Miro. Shilpa and Miro are dear, dear friends of mine, and I am so excited to talk to Shilpa. Shilpa is an incredible baker, cook, and recipe developer. She's known for creating recipes that are equal parts reliable and delightful, whether it's a dreamy raspberry cream cake, a perfect pasta, or the ultimate peach and blueberry summer pie. She brings Michelin-level technique to approachable home cooking and baking with plenty of fun and always texture, which she describes as her favorite flavor. Born and raised in Chennai, India, Shilpa studied economics before swapping spreadsheets for spatulas. She trained at the Culinary Institute of America where she met Miro, then worked in some renowned New York City restaurants like Jean-Georges and The NoMad before turning to editorial. Shilpa and Miro recently opened Hani's Bakery and Cafe in the East Village in New York City, a cozy spot that blends their restaurant roots with seasonal, nostalgic American bakes. It's lovingly named after Miro's mom. And trust me, you've got to stop by if you're in the city. It's one of the best bakeries around, and I promise you I am not even remotely biased, and they have the best chocolate cake. Seriously, they do. Shilpa joins me to talk about her culinary journey, including her first bake, a Victoria sponge, people watching at the tiny tea stalls in Chennai, the BA Bake Club, and why the location of Hani's is so special to her and Miro. Then we walk through her peanut butter Rice Crispy Treats with brown butter recipe. Talk about yum. Shilpa shares two secret ingredients for making the best Rice Crispy Treats, including one she actually learned from me and why the Halva one at Hani's is such a hit with customers. I loved talking with Shilpa, so stay tuned for our chat.
Today's episode is presented by California Prunes. Just this morning, I made my go-to smoothie of kale, blueberries, and prunes, and I couldn't have had a better morning. It's so good. I've been snacking on California Prunes since forever, and I love knowing how good they are for your gut, your heart, and particularly for your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper, and antioxidants to support healthy bones. If you're trying to find ways to swap in natural sugars into your diet, like I did in my smoothie, prunes are there for you. I have a feeling there are some bakers listening. You guys probably already know how classic prunes are in French baking. I love baking a prune clafoutis because not only do the deep purple prunes look so beautiful in the light custard batter, but the fruit plumps up and gets even juicier when baked. And when I'm not baking with them, I'm snacking. I stash a container of prunes in my pantry for a sweet treat whenever I need it, and I pack a little bag of them to take on planes, usually paired with some salty almonds. For more info and recipes that range from prune cocktails to cakes, check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. That's californiaprunes.org.
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Let's chat with today's guest. Shilpa, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk Rice Crispy Treats with you and so much more.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I'm excited to be here. It is a little odd because we know each other really well in real life.
Jessie Sheehan:
I couldn't agree with you more. It feels so funny.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It's so official.
Jessie Sheehan:
I agree. It was so interesting researching you because I know you so well, but there was a lot that I don't know about, so I'm excited to learn. You grew up in southern India in Chennai. Can you share an early baking or sweet memory from your childhood there? Either something that you ate, something that you made, something that someone else made for you.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Okay, I'll share. The very first thing I ever baked, it was a Victoria sponge cake. It was this recipe from a huge board book. It was like “My First Cookbook.” That was the name of the book. And I remember just being so fascinated by cookbooks at the time. My parents traveled a lot, they traveled to Europe, they traveled to the U.K., so we had a lot of cookbooks. Did they ever cook from them? They're lovely parents, so I'm not going to castigate them on air. So then nothing was ever cooked out of those cookbooks, but they became sort of my reading material for many years. I always liked books, and the cookbooks were just another thing to pore over. So I remember reading those books. And then one day I decided, "You know what? I'm just going to bake this cake."
So I baked it. I remember my grandma was walking. She would always walk inside our house because she was diabetic, and she wouldn't want to go out because it was a little too humid. So she would walk the perimeter of our house, essentially, every evening. So she was pacing around. I put this cake in my parents' Panasonic oven, which was like a microwave slash oven combo, and I remember sitting in front of it and watching the cake rise. And that was my very first baking memory especially. And I think from then I was addicted to that feeling.
Jessie Sheehan:
So was the board book like a book for kids?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes, it was a children's book.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you remember how old you were?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I think I was maybe like 10.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
So not super young, but young enough.
Jessie Sheehan:
So that is so interesting because that's something else I wanted to talk to you about, which is whether you're sort of identify as more of a cook or more of a baker because you do both at BA. But it's so interesting the first thing you gravitated towards, which maybe a lot of kids are like that, but was cake.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a slightly difficult one to answer. I think I'm a bit of both. I'm a baker, maybe I'm a baker at heart because I love sweet things. I think we're united on that front.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I love desserts. So I'm a baker at heart for sure, but I am a very good cook, perhaps even better a cook than I'm a baker, maybe.
Jessie Sheehan:
When I was researching you, which as I said felt so peculiar, I stumbled upon your recipe for thengai buns on Cake Z.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I wanted you to talk to us about thengai buns.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Within this recipe and the headnote that you had written for it, you mentioned old-school bakeries and tiny tea shacks and sleeper trains and school cafeterias. And I wanted you to set a picture for us with the eating of the thengai buns and where we might be doing it.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Thank you. That's a nice little gem that you picked up. I love Cake Z, and I was so thrilled to have contributed that recipe for them. Thengai is the Tamil word for coconut, and Tamil Nadu is the state that I grew up in. So I was always surrounded by these coconut buns. They were essentially sort of a brioche or milk bread hybrid. There was this brioche bun that was stuffed with a mixture of shredded coconut and candied fruit, which I would later discover was actually diced green papaya that was candied and dyed red. At the time, I thought they were candied cherries, but it wasn't the case. So it was this mixture. It often had cardamom in the coconut mixture. It was always this thing that I wanted at a bakery when I went to it. My parents wouldn't always buy it for us, but that was the one thing I would go to anytime I went to a bakery.
It probably didn't have eggs. It's because a lot of people in India, especially the south, tend to be vegetarian to the extent that they don't even eat eggs. So we have bakeries that specialize in making baked goods without eggs, which we know that's quite a feat to achieve. But there were these specialty bakeries without eggs. We ate eggs, so that wasn't the deciding factor. But these buns would be there at a bakery. There would always be these little tea shacks around the city, like small stalls, let's call them, everywhere because drinking tea is a big part of our culture. And nothing is more fascinating than watching someone at a tea shack having a little tea. Because Jessie, the glass of tea is no bigger than a thimble. It probably feels like a quarter cup of tea at most. But to watch someone on break in that tea shack drinking that quarter cup of tea for half an hour, it's so fascinating. The joy, the complete disassociation from daily life in that moment. It's beautiful.
Every tea stall or shack will have these glass jars of what we call biscuits in India, which we call them cookies in America. And they're often just dry cookies. They wouldn't be like chewy cookies. They're dry, shortbread cookies. At the back there would be like a selection of buns and fried pakoras. But the coconut buns, those are the ones that I gravitated to.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. We'll be right back. Cherry Bombe's next print magazine is the Italy issue. And trust me, you're going to want to copy. This dreamy issue is all about la dolce vita with delicious recipes, beautiful photography and stories that will transport you straight to the trattorias, bakeries, and gelato stands. The Italy issue will be out this September, and the only way to guarantee your copy is to subscribe at cherrybombe.com. I know you're going to love the cover star too. Or cover stars. My lips are sealed for now. So head to cherrybombe.com or click the link in our show notes to subscribe. Now, back to our guest.
So eventually you went to university in India and you got an economics degree. And I have to say I have in bold, "Why!!" Were you interested in business? Was it just a degree that just made sense to you in light of your family? What drew you to it?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Honestly, sometimes I ask myself why too. I was, and I think I still am very good with numbers. I used to love accounting in high school, so that was a natural path. And I felt like economics was wide enough that I could then do many other things.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love learning new things about you. I did not know about the numbers. I wonder if that's-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Well, see, Miro would laugh if he hears that because he's like, "Tell your dad to get a refund from that college," but he's not on this podcast.
Jessie Sheehan:
You get your economics degree and then you decide to go to culinary school in the U.S. So many questions, any pushback from your parents? How did you make that decision? How did you even know about the CIA?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Okay, but I was studying for my economics degree. I was-
Jessie Sheehan:
And was that, honey, was that a four-year, a traditional-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It was three.
Jessie Sheehan:
Three years. Okay.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah. But it was a traditional undergraduate program. And then I was also doing a separate accounting course, which would put me on my way to being a chartered accountant. I don't know what it's called here. A CPA?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I think. I was studying that course to become a CPA. And that's when I realized, wait a second, high school numbers are very different from real-life adult numbers. And I hated it. I think I failed that first exam on purpose because I did not want to continue. So I hated that so much. And that's when I realized, "Wait, I actually don't like sitting at a desk. I actually don't like being stationary in one place." My personality is the type that I need instant gratification. I need to make some things. I need to see it come to life in front of me. And that makes me feel very happy. And there was a time when it was very confusing to trying to figure out what the next step is. I remember feeling very lost for a few months, and then I kept thinking, what is the one thing that was constant my whole life?
And I realized it is cooking. That is something that I always return to. That's something that I always turn to at many moments in my life, and which did bring me a great amount of joy. And I thought, "Okay, what about this?" And again, I was very fortunate to have an uncle of mine who lived here at the time, and he suggested the CIA and he said, "If you want to go to culinary school, that is the best one out here. So would you want to consider that?" And I did a little bit of digging and I realized that okay, "Yes, maybe this is the thing that I should do." And when I made that decision, it was never with the intention of doing anything with it. My parents were gracious enough to be like, "If this is your interest, go and pursue it. It doesn't matter what happens at the end of it, just take this course." Which I'm very grateful for. That's a rare thing. It wasn't cheap to go to culinary school. And I'm very blessed that my parents allowed me that freedom to do so.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you arrived in culinary school, and I think I kind of know the answer, but would you say you identified more as a baker or a cook?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Well, I came to school for culinary. I did not-
Jessie Sheehan:
No, I knew that. But was it like a bake... Oh, could you have made the choice to go for-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes, I could have made the choice to either do baking or culinary.
Jessie Sheehan:
I did not know that.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
At the time when I enrolled. And then in the culinary program, there was a section where we would do baking. So I felt it was more bang for my buck to do a culinary program where I could do some baking rather than if we did the baking course, it was strictly baking. So I thought, "Okay, I could learn more by doing a culinary program." So I chose culinary at that moment.
Jessie Sheehan:
And what about Miro, your husband who you met there, was he identified as a baker at that point? No. Or he was the same as you?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, we both went to culinary school for the culinary program, not baking.
Jessie Sheehan:
So after culinary school, I know everything I read on the internet says like, "Shilpa worked in restaurants before she went to BA." But there was, I feel like when I met you, a teeny window of private cheffing. Correct? There was, yeah.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And was that, I don't even remember because we were just becoming friends. Was that more like you were sick of, you didn't want to do restaurant work anymore. You hadn't really even imagined a food media career for yourself, and so that was a way to still cook, do what you love, but just on a much more manageable schedule than restaurants?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes, that was exactly it. I was working in these restaurants before, right after school. I worked in Perry Street, I worked at the NoMad, I worked at Maialino, worked at Marea, really good restaurants, and I genuinely loved the work there. But there was just this day I woke up suddenly and I was like, "I'm done. I can't do this anymore." I still don't know what that switch was that turned off. I just decided that I don't want to work in restaurants. And I'll be honest, it was a very tough decision to make because I was very close to moving up the career ladder at that stage, working in kitchens. So it was a very difficult decision to say, "Okay, I'm going to step away from restaurants", but I just needed to and I wasn't really happy anymore. And that's when I decided, "Okay, let me take some time for myself." And I did. So while it was tough, I think it was a very necessary step. And while it took a few years for myself, that's how I fell into private cheffing.
Jessie Sheehan:
And was it the kind of thing where, I can imagine that part of what you didn't like were the hours and being on your feet all the time?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I mean, it didn't feel very sustainable working in restaurants. I think the greatest irony of working in a restaurant is you're often eating like shit. You're cooking all of this wonderful food, but the way you're feeding yourself is actually terrible. You're working these odd hours. You barely have time to eat before or after work. You're either eating very late, you're eating trash. You often go for shift drinks with your colleagues. All of these are great at the moment, but just didn't feel sustainable to me in the long run.
Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah. But listen, I still miss that. I still miss the adrenaline of working in a restaurant, but I am very grateful.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I was going to ask you that if it's something that you missed. So tell us about how the job at BA came to be.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Sometimes it almost puzzles me how I did end up here. I think the shortest way to answer is I was, do you know Erin McDowell who wrote the book on pie-
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course yes, she's been a guest-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Lovely, lovely, Erin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, yes, yes.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Erin reached out to me asking if I would like to help out on the photo shoot for her book. She said she was doing this photo shoot. She had an assistant already, and she just said, if I was available I could come and hang out. So I said, "Yeah, absolutely, I'll do it." So I ended up going and helping. I was like the second assistant. Erin is extremely talented, and Caitlin, her assistant is very talented as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Who food styled my last two books.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes. So we all know Caitlin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I love Caitlin. So I was just helping out. And then it was towards the end of the shoot and Erin had posted, it was the last day, Erin took a picture of all of us working the shoot, and I guess she posted it on her stories. And Sarah Jampel who worked at Bon Appétit at the time, Sarah's now at King Arthur Baking Company. I guess Sarah saw Erin's story, and I don't know why or how, but she reached out to me and she asked me, "Would you like to contribute to Bon Appétit?" And I said, "What?" I said, "Yes, of course I would love to." So I started contributing recipes to BA first. I contributed a couple of recipes, and in the middle of that, a job opened up. I saw a job posting online for a food editor position at Bon Appétit.
So I emailed Sarah and I was like, "Sarah, can I apply for this?" And she said, "Yeah, of course. Send me your resume." So I did, and one thing led to the other, and I remember it was the summer of 2021. I had just recovered from a broken ankle. I was in India at the time because I went there. It was post COVID, we were finally allowed to travel. So I wanted to be with my family. I flew out to India. Then it was in the middle of being there that we had this interview process with Chris and Meryl as well. And I remember sitting at home, my legs still in this boot, interviewing with Chris, and then I actually started freelancing with BA for maybe six months.
I food edited a Christmas cookie story in the middle of August, and it was my first week freelancing. My oven had broken down, and there I was like, "Oh, my oven broke down." I was like, "They're never going to give me a job after this." It was a lot of anxiety, but I was freelancing with them for six months. And then Chris was like, "Well, this job is available if you want it." And I was like, "Yeah, I'll take it." So that's how I ended up there.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I feel like there was also a moment around that Bon Appétit time where you started to publish more recipes online. You worked for Food52 a little bit, for The Kitchen. I think I stumbled upon some Simply Recipes recipes. So there was a little bit of an introduction for Shilpa from the restaurant world to recipe development online, culminating in the BA job.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Would you say at this point you prefer at the BA developing baking recipes or savory recipes?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I like that I'm in a job that allows me to do both because it really helps balance both desires. I love developing baking recipes, but I also realize when I'm deep in the middle of developing, let's say three recipes for a pie or a cookie and a cake, I'm like, "Oh my God, when is the next savory recipe coming along?" So I think I'm very lucky that I get to do both and both really capture my interest almost equally. It's hard to pick. It's hard to pick. But yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's funny because, so I know you're an incredible savory cook. First of all, because Miro told me, I remember very early on, he might've even said you were a better baker than him too, but he definitely said you were an incredible cook. And then also the first time we ever had you over for dinner, you brought me Saag Paneer.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh yes, I remember you saying you love it? So I was like, "Okay, here's what I can bring for you."
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. It was so delicious, honey. Now, there are a couple of things you do at BA that I wanted to talk about, and the first is the BA Bake Club.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh, thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us all about that and tell us all about your work husband, Jesse.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
BA Bake Club is something that I thought of, I want to say now, two years ago. Something that I thought of two years ago, and at the end of the year, you have to set goals for that following year. That was something new to me in corporate America. So one of the questions like, "What are your goals for the next year?" And I really thought hard about it. I decided that I wanted to do something that connects me little bit more closely with our readers. It's lovely to develop recipes, put them on the websites, hope that people are cooking from them. And sometimes you get feedback in the form of comments left on your recipes on the website, but I was really missing this human interaction. That was something that I did get when I was at restaurants. You could see a plate go out, you would see it come back empty, or you could look into the dining room, see a diner's face. I really missed that kind of immediate feedback loop.
So that was my goal, to do something where I could interact more directly with our readers. And I decided that it had to revolve around baking because, well, first of all, I love to bake and I think that baking lends itself to this community sort of aspect. You can bake something, you can talk about it. You can have very similar results in baking so that people can talk about the same thing. As opposed to cooking, there are things that you can change a lot when you cook at home, but baking for the most part, almost everybody's using the same. They're using all-purpose flour. They're using butter, they're using sugar. It's a bit more standardized and it gives you something more compact in a way to study and talk about.
That's how BA Bake Club really came about, and I really saw how big this could grow. It was beyond just sharing a recipe. In my mind I was like, "Let's develop a recipe. Let's share it. Let's have people talk about it." And I felt like this could translate into real-life events. We can have podcasts built around it. We can have products built around it one day. So it was really this big-picture thing that grew out of my desire to have a more direct connection to our readers.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, incredible. I had no idea it was your idea.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, it was my idea. It was my idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
And was Jesse like so into it?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Jesse, at the time when I thought about it and wrote this down, Jesse wasn't at BA just yet, so that explains why there was a pause. It didn't really take a start right when I thought about it. I thought about this. I put up this plan. I was very lucky to be able to work with Emma. Emma is our editor at BA. She's on parental leave right now, but Emma was the one who approached me and said, "Hey, are you passionate about something?" And then I told her all about Bake Club, and she said, "Okay, make a plan for it." So she really pushed me to come up with a concrete plan for Bake Club, and then Jesse came along and we just decided that there was now two of us excellent bakers, and this would be the perfect time to do this thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
So great. Also. Now, I wonder if this was your idea too. The name of it sounds like a Shilpa name. Tell us about Baking, Hows, Whys, and WTFs.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
That was actually Sarah Jampel who named that. Sarah's brilliant. I love her. Sarah came up with that name. But Baking Hows, Whys, and WTFs was a baking column that I wrote, which do really deep into baking peculiarities. "Do you need to preheat your oven? Why? What is all-purpose flour? What is the difference between baking powder and baking soda?" I love baking because I feel like I'm a nerd at heart, and it really lets you be that, and then at the end result, you get to eat cake. So I love knowing the hows and whys, so to speak, of baking. And this column really let me dive deep and just let my nerd flag fly.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it, also, because not everyone is like a tip or a trick, but I love tips and tricks and hacks, and I feel like-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, you're great at that.
Jessie Sheehan:
... all of that. Okay. Now I want to talk about Hani's, which is the bakery that you and Miro opened recently in New York City. So tell us about the Hani's journey, whatever version of that journey you want to tell us.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Okay. Hani's is a bakery that I co-own with my husband, Miro. I have to say it right off the bat. Hani's is Miro's dream. That is his dream. It is named after his mom. His mom was an excellent baker, and she unfortunately died when he was very young. I think he was in his very early twenties. In many ways it's his story to tell, but he did promise her that he would open a bakery in her name and he did many years later. So Hani's is our bakery in the East Village, which always gives me the chills when I say that. I'll say, because we used to go to that area all the time after our shift as line cooks, we would go to this place. There used to be this place where they would sell $5 shots, and then around the corner from there was this Japanese fried chicken place.
It's crazy that we would go there, and now we have a business there. That's wild. Every time we pass by, we're like, "Miro, that's ours, right?" He's like, "Yes, that's ours." That's crazy to me. But totally his dream. Something he really wanted to do for a long time. He was the pastry chef at Gramercy Tavern for many years, and an established pastry chef before that as well. And we knew it was time for him to do something of his own. But then COVID, all of this came by. And in many ways, actually, I think COVID was a catalyst for Hani's. It was then when we realized that working for somebody is great in that you have a steady paycheck, you don't have too many worries, but also you can just be let go at any moment. So it felt really important for us to have agency.
That's how Hani's came about. In many ways, it was a lot of planning that went into opening the space as anybody who owns a business will tell you. Miro put in so much work. He was working on this since 2021, and we opened in 2024, towards the end of it. So it took like three, three and a half years of hard work. But we're so proud of it. And it's a modern, we call it a modern American bakery because we are very inspired by American baking traditions.
Jessie Sheehan:
There just two things I would love you to tell us about at the bakery. First, the chocolate cake, and then also PB&J cake.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
We love cakes. And also I found out very early on when Miro and I were dating that his mom also used to love cakes. It felt very important for us to have cakes at Hani's. So we made sure we had a strong cake program. We have multiple cakes, but I think the ones that stand out the most are, as you mentioned, the chocolate cake, which is a very simple chocolate cake in many ways. It's a take on Brooklyn Blackout. So it has these devil's food cake, chocolate layers. It has a chocolate pudding on the inside and a chocolate ganache outside. And we put cake crumbs on the side. It's just like an emoji version of a chocolate cake. When you want chocolate cake, that's the slice you want to be getting. And we cut them into huge pieces at the bakery, and it's very imposing and lovely.
The PBJ cake. PBJ cake has a fascinating story. It actually started off as a birthday cake that I made for a friend of mine who loved peanut butter. Our friend, she passed away many years ago at this point, but in many ways it is a tribute to her and that memory of that summer in the backyard with her, and that was her favorite cake. But it was essentially yellow cake layers. And then we do a wild blueberry compote sort of jam and layer that in, and we have a peanut butter buttercream. And I think what pushes it over the top for me is we put a black sesame peanut brittle all around, and that really sort of takes it to a place where it's a little bit unexpected. There's that toasty quality of the sesame seeds that really complements everything else in a way that's very unexpected.
Jessie Sheehan:
Also, texture is your favorite flavor, and it brings texture.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yep. That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which I love. All right, now we're going to talk about literally one of my favorite things of all time. Rice Crispy Treats. So have you always been a fan? Would you have eaten Rice Crispy Treats during your childhood at all?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
No, I never ate Rice Crispy Treats until I was over 20 years old. And the first time I had it was the one in the blue package and I was like, "Oh my God." I love the texture of it. It was horrifically sweet to me, but I did love the texture of it and I found it fascinating.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. There's now a New York City famous version of Rice Crispy Treat at Hani's. Lisa Marie Donovan, who was just a guest on the podcast. Hi, Lisa. Just covered it for the New York Times. So peeps, go and check that out online. We're not going to discuss that one, but we are going to mention it a little bit. But we're going to discuss a peanut butter one from BA. I think this is true, that sort of the idea for the one that's at Hani's, and maybe even in some ways your idea for the peanut butter one, it was all born when you and Miro had a pandemic pop-up bakery called Extra Helpings, and you had a Rice Crispy Treat on your pop-up menu. Can you tell us about that particular Rice Crispy Treat?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Jessie, you really researched this.
Jessie Sheehan:
I try, honey.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Digging up bits of my past. I'm like, "Whoa." Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
I try. I try.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I feel so special. Thank you for paying so much close attention. I appreciate that. Yes, you're absolutely right. The origin story of the Rice Crispy Treats is Miro and I made it for our pandemic-era micro bakery, which we call Extra Helpings. And we were baking out of our home. We are very fortunate. We live in Queens and our kitchen is quite large for New York City standards, so we could bake a lot of food. We put these Rice Crispy Treats on the menu just on a whim. We were like, "Okay, we need to fill up the box with something. Let's put Rice Crispy Treats." The response was crazy. And I was like, "What?" The number of comments that we got on those Rice Crispy Treats from people who bought it?
I was like, "Miro, this is wild." I did not expect that. So we kept making it. And I remember at the time, because we had to make such large batches and at home we would melt all the marshmallows and the brown butter in our orange Le Creuset, and then we would pour it into this very clean, I promise, and food safe container, which was maybe like 20 quarts. And we would put our Rice Crispies in there and mix it and then set it on half sheet trays. So we really had an operation going. But that was my first experience with the Rice Crispy Treats and knowing that an audience is there to appreciate them. Sometimes we added peanut butter, but mostly it was like a brown butter, vanilla, salty Rice Crispy Treat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum. Yum. And after that experience, I'm sure Miro always knew he was going to put it on the Hani's men?u
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Actually, no, we didn't. The fact that the Rice Crispy Treats are on the Hani's menu was very last minute. We never anticipated having it on the menu, but I remember this very clearly. It was a few days away from opening in November of 2024, and we decided that we needed something that we could make quickly. We needed something on the menu that we could make a large quantity of in a relatively short amount of time. And then we thought about what we used to make at our micro bakery, and I said, "Miro, what about Rice Crispy Treats?" And we decided yes. And Miro had the brilliant idea to make a pistachio halva version of them. We buy tahini from Seed+Mill from Rachel Simons, and we love her halva as a snack. And so we thought, "Okay, why not that flavor, pistachio halva in Rice Crispies." And that's how that menu item came to be. Completely accidental, very unplanned, very last minute, but went on to be one of our best-sellers.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it, it's so delicious. The recipe we're going to talk about today is a peanut butter, brown butter Rice Crispy Treat from BA. When you pitched Rice Crispy Treat, how'd you come up with peanut butter?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
This recipe that exists online on BA.com was definitely inspired by the ones that we made Extra Helpings. They already had many of the things that are in their final recipe. The peanut butter was a last minute addition because I just wanted to see how we could boost the flavor a little bit more. I think we maybe had a recipe for a vanilla Rice Crispy Treat. So I just decided to add something else because I really wanted these Rice Crispies to live on the sites, and I knew I couldn't get away with just a vanilla flavored one. So I was like, "What else can I add?" And then, "Peanut butter." That's how-
Jessie Sheehan:
They have two incredible ingredients that are unusual that I would love you to tell us about. And then of course, we're going to go through the recipe, but tell us why we are adding non-fat dry milk powder when we brown our butter?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh, browning milk powder to recreate a very supercharged brown butter of sorts was one of my very first techniques I explored when I joined Bon Appétit. Prior to this, I published a recipe for a chocolate cake with brown butter buttercream, which used the same technique and that blew up. And I've always done this. Adding non-fat milk powder to your melting butter as it browns really boosts the available amount of milk solids. And so you get a very concentrated brown butter flavor. Because think about it, when you melt butter to make brown butter, there aren't a lot of milk solids in butter. I was thinking of ways that I can increase the element that gives brown butter its actual flavor, and milk powder is nothing but milk solids.
Jessie Sheehan:
So was it literally like a genius Shilpa discovery?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
No, absolutely not. I would love to take credit, but no. I'm a genius in many ways, but no, I definitely didn't come up with that one. I read about it for the first time in this blog called Ideas in Food, a lovely blog. And the authors behind that blog also have a donut shop called Curiosity Donuts, and they just have these wild, wonderful ideas. And that's when I first read about it and I thought, "Wow, that's brilliant." And I filed it away in my brain, and when it came to making desserts, I knew that this was a lever I could pull.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I feel like Christina Tosi at Milk Bar uses milk powder in a bunch of different ways, although I don't know if she does it in brown butter, but I love it. Does this mean whenever you're making brown butter, like savory, sweet, whatever, you're always going to add a little bit of milk powder?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
For baking? Almost, yes. Almost always, yes, I do. For savory, not so much, but what I have taken to doing is this. I take a cup or so of milk powder and I toast it in some butter, and then it makes me a cup's worth of brown butter solids, and then I keep that in the fridge. So whenever I want brown butter flavored something, I just crumble off a little bit of those brown milk solids and I scatter it over anything. It's excellent over pasta. It's great over summer corn, just steamed corn with butter and these brown butter sprinkles on top is amazing. And then also, yes, I use it in cookies in different applications.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you're not even melting the butter with the, you've already-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I've already done that. You can batch your brown butter flavor element and hold on to it in the fridge-
Jessie Sheehan:
And without even any of the butter just toasting the milk solids?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
You can do it dry. You can just toast your milk powder dry either-
Jessie Sheehan:
But you're doing both and they're putting in the fridge?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes. I like to melt it with the butter and brown it with the butter because I think there's some sort of alchemical reaction and I think it works better and it tastes nicer when it's bloomed and browned in the butter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Tell us about the addition of sweetened condensed milk.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
That's something I learned from you, Jessie. That is something I learned from you, and I'm always grateful to you for that because you wrote about it and you said sweetened condensed milk is what keeps your Rice Crispie Treats very chewy. I think you should talk about it actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, it was, oh, actually this is coming full circle because it was at the Cherry Bombe Jubilee, I believe it would've been 2019, because it was pre-pandemic. And Libby Willis of MeMe's Diner, which RIP MeMe's, it's no longer, I can't remember what I was? I think I was making little tiny coconut cupcakes because I think that Whole Foods had sponsored Jubilee and I needed to use a product, a coconut product from Whole Foods. So I had little coconut cupcakes and she was right next to me with her Rice Crispie Treats from the diner. And I had never tasted a Rice Crispie Treat that delicious.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh, wow.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I just said to her, "What the F is going on?" And she said, "It's sweetened dense milk." And it blew my mind.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It's a game changer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, and it's true. I think you're right. It's not only, you talk about the shelf life because it allows them to stay chewy for longer, and then it's just an unctuousness, a milkiness, a maltiness that adds that flavor, and then also that initial chew.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I love it. I'm always grateful for that trick that I learned from you.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's such a good one. And you're so cute when you write in your head note, you'll say, "You're going to think you can skip this, but don't skip it."
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes, don't skip it.
Jessie Sheehan:
"Because your treats will be dry, hard and... ". This is classic Shilpa, "... deeply ordinary." All right, so let's get into this recipe. So we're going to take an eight-inch square pan, and you even tell us that this is because we're going to have dramatic, tall, and as you described them, "Tall as small buildings, Rice Crispie Treats." But if you want to have sort of a more modest portion, we can do a nine-inch square pan or a nine by 13 for ultra-thin bars, and we're going to line the pan. It can be metal or glass. Do you have a preference?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Metal always.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, me too. Because you want those square edges.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. I hate a rounded edge.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I knew we were friends for a reason.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, the worst. The worst. So metal all the way. Do you have a pan, like a metal pan preference?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I don't know Jessie, but I just know that I always look for straight sides.
Jessie Sheehan:
And kind of heavy-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... not wimpy. So we're going to line it with parchment paper, leaving an overhang on two sides. Do you grease first to help the parchment paper stick or do you just put in the paper?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I have a peculiar pet peeve.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, tell me.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Is that I don't like to grease the pan before I add parchment because then when you flip something out, the bottom of the parchment is greasy and I don't like that feeling on my hands. So, I know it's silly. And I know if you grease the pan first and then put the parchment when you drop your Rice Crispie Treat, or when you're dropping cake batter, for instance, the paper won't shift around as much, but I'll take that. I'll sacrifice and put up that small bit of shifting just I don't have to feel that greasy underneath-
Jessie Sheehan:
So no grease, you're just going to put in the paper?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, I just put the paper and then I grease the paper sometimes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to melt some unsalted butter cut into pieces in a large Dutch oven or other heavy pot over medium heat. And then once it's melted, is that right? Because we're not adding the milk powder until the butter is melted?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, technically it doesn't really matter when you add it. For ease, I say let the butter melt fully, but before it bubbles, just let it melt fully. And then you add the milk powder.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to add a little bit of nonfat dry milk powder. Is there a brand?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I usually like Bob's Red Mill.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It's easy to find.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to add the dry milk powder once the butter's melted, but before it's bubbling and we're on medium heat, so nothing is going to get too, too hot anyway, but we don't want it to. Then we're going to cook stirring constantly with a heatproof rubber spatula. Is there a brand of flexible spatula that you like?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I actually like Matfer brand. It's like a very restaurant brand, and you can find from kitchen supply stores-
Jessie Sheehan:
It like the red handle and the white-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the white top.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
And it's either those or they have a black handle and white top. I had a collection of colorful ones from another company and I love the colors, but honestly, I think the Matfer ones stand the test of time.
Jessie Sheehan:
They're the best. So we're going to cook stirring constantly with our Matfer rubber spatula until the mixture turns dark nut brown, the milk powder may clump up. Don't worry, it'll take about four minutes. Then we're going to add the mini marshmallows and we're going to cook stirring vigorously until the marshmallows are melted and the mixture is smooth about two minutes, and we're keeping it on medium heat through this?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes. And you can adjust the heat, but really the medium heat gives you a little bit more control. Also, I'm closing my eyes so I can picture every step.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh yeah, no, I know. I see you closing your eyes. I understood exactly what was going on. And then I think this is an important note about Rice Crispies making. For those of us that truly love them, like you and me, that people make a mistake if they put the temperature up too high because actually medium or even low to do everything, you'll have much more control.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes, I agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
You have much more control.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
So medium is good. I mean, I'm an impatient person, so I can relate, but when you turn up the heat, you're going to be sad. Once the marshmallows are melted, we're going to add our sweetened condensed milk. Brand of sweetened condensed milk?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I generally like Eagle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And we're going to also add our creamy peanut butter. Brand of peanut butter?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh, okay. For cooking, it's always going to be Skippy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
Either vanilla bean paste or vanilla extract.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It's always going to be vanilla bean paste for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
It is, yeah.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah. I actually get Miro to buy me a big bottle from the restaurant from Chef's Warehouse. But otherwise I really like Heilala and I also like Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Add some kosher salt. And we're going to stir till incorporated, and then once everything's incorporated, we'll remove from the heat. I feel like sometimes I add my sweetened condensed milk with my marshmallows, but I was interested in your order. Do you think the order in which adding everything is, I mean obviously it's important, it's what you decided to do, but do you have a reason for that order? Why it's best if the marshmallows are melted before we add our peanut butter and sweetened condensed milk?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes. The marshmallows will take a little bit longer to melt. The condensed milk and the peanut butter, they just need to melt. They don't need to cook. But if you add them, I felt if you add them with the marshmallows, that extended time in the pot, because the marshmallows take a longer time, might overcook the condensed milk and also condensed milk has so much sugar, it has a tendency to catch and the texture of it, along with the peanut butter, it's very thick and sticky. So it does have a tendency to catch at the bottom. So just to avoid it from catching and burning, I prefer to melt the marshmallows first. Then you add this very quickly, just stir to melt.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to fold our puffed rice cereal. I'm assuming it's Rice Crispies?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Always. Yes. Interesting fact about Rice Crispies is that they're not gluten-free.
Jessie Sheehan:
And people think they are.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yeah, they're not. I guess they use barley.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also thought it was an interesting, I was interested by how BA gets around, Rice Krispies Treat is technically spelled R-I-C-E K-R-I-S-P-I-E-S because that's the brand name.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you guys get around it by kind of flagging the texture, which is crispy.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it's Rice Crispies, C-R-I-S-P-I–E-S.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I thought that was interesting. I feel like whenever I write a cookbook and I have been known to put Rice Crispie Treats in my cookbooks, I have to call them like puffed rice treat, and it's so much nicer to say rice crispi-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Rice crispi.
Jessie Sheehan:
... but with the C, not the K. So we're going to add our Rice Crispies into our marshmallow mixture, scraping the bottom of the pot until combined, the cereal is coated. Then we're going to scrape the mixture into our prepared pan. We're going to gently press it into the corners. Smooth the top. You ask us to avoid compacting the mixture.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I suggest the same. Tell us why that's important to avoid.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
It's because it's the same reason that a good sandwich is great. It's because it leaves air pockets in between. You want a little bit of air and flow for everything to eat well, I think. What do you feel?
Jessie Sheehan:
I think exactly the same thing. I feel like if you compact it too much, maybe the first day you're still okay, but that it gets too hard and kind of crispy and cracker like when that's not what you want.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to sprinkle with a generous pinch of flaky sea salt. Is there a brand of flaky sea salt that you love?
Shilpa Uskokovic:
I generally always like Maldon. I also like Jacobsen sea salt.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. We're going to cover loosely with foil and let sit at room temperature until set. Two hours is going to be enough or up to two days.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes. Up to two days, who's going to wait that long?
Jessie Sheehan:
I know-
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Not me.
Jessie Sheehan:
I can literally, I mean, I'm sure you and Miro can do this. Alone, I can practically eat like, oh, I just keep going back for little slivers.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love them so much. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Shilpa, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie and also my Rice Crispie Treat.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Oh my gosh. You're my sweetened condensed milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're my milk powder.
Shilpa Uskokovic:
Thanks, Jessie. Truly a joy to be here. No, it feels really special to be speaking to a friend.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to California Prunes for supporting our show. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.