SHE’S MY CHERRY PIE - cheryl day transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps. You're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and this is the second episode of the new miniseries, She's My Cherry Pie. I'm your host, Jesse Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, cookbook author, and mom. Each Saturday I'm hanging with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bake. Today I'm talking biscuits with none other than the Queen of the South, Cheryl Day of Back in the Day Bakery in Savannah, Georgia. We'll also talk about her Janie Q Provisions product line and her epic baking book.
Thank you to California Prunes for sponsoring this slice of She's My Cherry Pie. Peeps, let's talk about California Prunes. You may not know this, but prunes are healthy, delicious, and have a rich deep flavor that pairs beautifully with everything from espresso to chocolate, caramel to cinnamon. If playing with flavor is your jam, then you know what I'm talking about. For my baker friends, we're looking to cut down on sugar. It's prunes to the rescue or rather prune puree. What is prune puree you might ask? Well, it's a combination of prunes and water that you blend together to create a velvety mixture that keeps in the fridge for up to four weeks. You can use the puree to replace from one third to half the sugar in a recipe. You can also do egg and oil swaps, amazing peeps, right? Visit californiaprunes.org for the swap specifics and to snag some holiday recipes for gingerbread, sticky buns, scones, and more. Look for prunes at your favorite grocery or specialty store. Peeps, you'll be swooning over prunes in no time.
Now let's check in with Cheryl. Cheryl!
Cheryl Day:
So excited to be here with you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, I'm excited to chat with you. Before we dive into biscuits, I did want to ask you a little bit about the new TV show with Milk Street. It's so exciting. I want to hear the scoop. I watched the Noodle Kugel Pudding episode, which I loved, and I'm going to watch more, but tell people who may not know about it. What is happening on that amazing show?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, I'm so excited about this show on Roku. Christopher Kimball invited me to co-host with him, which is, I thought, an incredible opportunity. I've never hosted a television show before. It's just us having a great time doing something that I love, which is paying homage to our ancestors and all these families. There's 10 episodes. We go into the houses of different families and their generational recipes that they want to recreate, and it's so fun to try to crack the code and just recreate these great recipes and some of those... I can't wait for everyone to see all of the episodes. There's some that literally have brought tears to my eyes and I was there, but still rewatching it, it's just so touching. It's just a very heartwarming show. It's just all the warm fuzzies and I think really everything that we really need more of right now. So yeah, it's a great show. My Family Recipe on Roku.
Jessie Sheehan:
I totally agree. And I also love your rapport with Christopher Kimball. I love watching you too.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah. We have the best time together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Since we are going to talk about biscuits and there is sort of a very special biscuit maker in your family, I was hoping you would talk a little bit about your great, great grandmother, Hannah Queen Grubbs.
Cheryl Day:
Oh yeah. She's the OG in our family. I discovered that baking is literally in my DNA. Hannah Queen Grubbs was enslaved. She was born in around or about 1838 in Alabama. Her job was making a lot of biscuits. She was what they call a pastry cook. So she worked in the house and she made all these delicious baked goods, pies and cakes and biscuits and just all of these delicious recipes. And after emancipation, she continued to bake for many different prominent families in the South. And it's something that was a part of her life and I'm just so excited that it's become a part of my life too, and that I'm passing the torch from Hannah Queen Grubbs to the here and now.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. And wasn't she also maybe worked in the home of a really famous politician, was it?
Cheryl Day:
She did. She did, a Democrat politician, dare I say, in the South. And it's funny, my mom was going through school teacher training and she met this politician and she asked him if he remembered her grandmother and of course he did. He said she made the best biscuits in Dale County, which was the county that they lived in Alabama, so that was pretty cool that he still remembered her biscuits.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. To switch gears, I also wanted to hear for those of us, including myself who have never been to Back in the Day Bakery, if you could tell us, I know there are biscuits, but could you tell us some of the yummy things that are available in the bakery? And very specifically, could you tell me about chocolate church cake and the frosting?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, sure. So we have, let's see, how can I describe? If you think of what an old-fashioned Southern bake sale would be, so everything from decadent brownies, chocolate chip cookies, big chocolate chip cookies as big as your face, slices of pie, cake. I do something called baby cakes that I'm known for. They're little miniature cakes that would serve, well, I thought of it for one or two people, but the baby cakes are just a small, little beautiful cake to be enjoyed by one or two people, which I decided to do because I will go into a bakery and buy an entire cake when I'm traveling and I can't eat an entire cake by myself. So I thought, "Oh, wouldn't it be fun to just make a beautiful little miniature cake?" Because I think sometimes you just want cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that, but I can already tell that I will be the person buying the baby cake who's not sharing it.
Cheryl Day:
Okay. Yeah. Well, that's fine. That's absolutely fine. But then we do savory things too. My husband, Griff [Griffith Day] does beautiful artisan breads. He does grandma style pizzas. He makes beautiful croissants. We do something that's probably one of my favorite things that Griff just started making. They're pecan frangipane croissants. I've never seen or heard that before, usually it's an almond croissant, but since we're in Georgia, we thought, why not? We always have pecans, pecan, however you say it. And so that's one of my favorite things. And then he does baguette sandwiches, very French style like jambon-beurre and some little fromage cheese. And then, of course, there are the biscuits. Biscuits are just something that people do love to line up for, for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think this is me quoting you. At the bakery, people come from miles around to eat them each morning slathered with pepper jelly, stuffed with eggs and bacon, or simply smeared with a little butter. Oh my gosh, Cheryl. I want all three.
Cheryl Day:
I know and now jam because we started our jam provisions line. So we love selling them just simply with one of our jams and a delicious whipped butter. And they're just really so good. And I love to make all different kinds of biscuits.
Jessie Sheehan:
You've said so many amazing things about biscuits that I can't stop quoting you, so you were going to have to forgive me. But one thing I loved is if you're a southern baker, you need more than just one biscuit recipe. I also love that you wrote in Treasury, there's no right texture, every kind, be it layered and flaky or tender and soft or not has its place on the table.
Cheryl Day:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted to start by talking about the cathead biscuit recipe. Before we even get into it, you had mentioned that Jennifer Garner made it famous and because I am just a sucker for a little celeb story, could you just share that before we go deep on catheads?
Cheryl Day:
Cathead biscuits are simply a drop biscuit that you can pull together very easily. But yes, Jennifer Gardner, who I absolutely love, who has visited the bakery and we have become friends, she was kind enough to put a nice little blurb on the cover of my cookbook. And she was so funny. She said, "Cheryl, I'm on the cover of your book." And she thought it was hilarious. And I was like, "I know. I'm in good company." I'm sure you've seen her pretend cooking shows that she does.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Cheryl Day:
So we've been very fortunate that just out of the blue, she loves our books. So she made the biscones. Apparently, she did tell me in person that she makes them quite frequently. It's something that she loves because she can whip them together, so she did it on her pretend cooking show, and we were super excited about that.
Jessie Sheehan:
In the Back in the Day Bakery cookbook, they're called biscones, but you refer to them also as catheads. And then in Treasury, they're the cathead biscuits with scallions and remind me, scallions and…
Cheryl Day:
Cheddar. And then you could put bacon. I love them because they're so versatile. I mean, traditionally, you would know them as a cathead biscuit. The reason I called them biscones was because one busy day in the bakery, Griff and I were flying around trying to get open on a Saturday and I just started scooping out. I used to roll them and cut them in the whole thing. But I said, "I think I can just scoop these out, plop them on the pan." And there we had it. It was like a biscone, a cross between a stone and a biscuit. And so yeah, biscones were born. But yeah, traditionally it really is a cathead biscuit because it's the size of a cat's head.
Jessie Sheehan:
I want to talk about the specific ingredients in the cathead with you. For flour, you're doing a combo of cake flour and all purpose, which I think is an attempt to mimic a White Lily flour. Is that right Cheryl?
Cheryl Day:
That's right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell people just in case they don't know what White Lily is and why some people believe it's a great flour to use with a biscuit, just in case people don't know?
Cheryl Day:
Sure. It's just an old Southern company that has been around probably forever. And it is winter wheat that is just specifically known in the South. And it became this rite of passage that, oh, you had to use White Lily for your... Kind of like how people say, you have to be in San Francisco to make sourdough or have a certain type of water in New York to make the best pizza. It became that kind of thing. But I just figured there had to be a way that everybody could make biscuits no matter where they lived, and they didn't have to go online to order some special ingredient because to me, my goal is just to make sure that people are getting in the kitchen and baking. And I don't want to make it difficult to do that. I want to keep it approachable.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And of course there's sugar and salt in the biscuits and then buttermilk. And I had a question and I hope this isn't sacrilege to ask.
Cheryl Day:
Uh-oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, right? But could you use milk? Could you use sour cream? Could you use a different kind of dairy fat? Or do you feel like you're not eating a cathead or a biscone unless you are putting buttermilk in there?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, absolutely. The only thing I do think is sacrilege is to pretend that you can make buttermilk from milk, which I know a lot of people say to add an acid, to add lemon juice. I see it all over the place. Let's just be clear, that is not buttermilk. I would prefer that you use sour cream or Greek yogurt or something like that and just maybe thin it down a little bit with a little bit of milk. But don't pretend that you can make buttermilk because buttermilk is a byproduct of making cream and butter, and it's not milk with lemon juice.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love you for saying that, Cheryl, because I didn't even know that there was anything to be concerned about when trying to do that. Because I, of course, just am following the... Oh look, I can make my own.
Cheryl Day:
Right. Well, I mean you can and you're making something, you're souring the milk, but let's not call it buttermilk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. I love that.
Cheryl Day:
Let's just not.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, no, I'm with you. We are not going to do that at all. And then I love this too because this is exactly how I make an egg wash. For your biscones and your catheads, you're using an egg wash, which is a little different than another biscuit we're going to talk about. And you always put a little bit of salt into it and maybe people think it's funny to go granular on egg wash, but there are a lot of different ways to make an egg wash.
Cheryl Day:
Oh wow. Yeah, I think I wrote a little essay about this once. It's just going to break down the egg. It starts to break it down. And so it's going to be easier to incorporate when you add just a little tiny pinch of salt. And then it depends on the result that you want, the type of brownness you want. If I'm doing a pie, I'll do half and half or a heavy cream rather. I know Griff on his croissants, he does a special egg wash on those. He adds a little bit of cream, I believe, to his croissants, to the egg wash. So yeah, it just depends on the look that you're going for. And I don't think there's any right or wrong way. I just think it's a nice tip so that you're not getting a big glop of egg when you're whisking it in and you're brushing on your egg mixture on top of your biscone or whatever.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally. It's nice to know that there actually can be some thought into what are you trying to achieve?
Cheryl Day:
I really do think so Jessie. I mean I really do like to think of myself as an intuitive baker in many ways. I do. I mean, I know all of us bakers know that you have to follow the science and a recipe, but I'm a creative person at heart, first and foremost, and I do like to play around in the kitchen. I still like to, maybe somewhat like a savory chef, I like to bend the rules a little bit where I can. And egg wash is certainly a place that you can play with.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now I want to talk a little bit about the tools because you have a tool that some people use, but some people don't. So obviously you're going to need a whisk because you're going to whisk your dry ingredients and then you say you can use your fingers, but you're suggesting a pastry blender. And I just did want to say for our listeners that in another episode when I spoke with Lisa Ludwinski from Sister Pie about pie, she also calls for a pastry blender when she's working her butter into her flour. So peeps listeners, we now have two people saying that maybe we all need to get pastry blenders and put them in our baking drawers, FYI.
Cheryl Day:
Pastry blender, that's what I use. That's what I use at home. If I'm making six pies, that's what I use. But if I'm making a hundred pies, I'm definitely going to do a different technique.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing. When you're making your biscuits, you have a large metal bowl because you want to keep things cold.
Cheryl Day:
Right. Plus it's like a low metal bowl so you can get your hands in there. And let me just say an aside for myself, that making biscuits and/or pie dough, any time I'm cutting in butter, that whole process, it is therapy that you cannot pay for. When your hands are in that dough, in that bowl, and you're having that tactile experience of either cutting it in or working it in with your hands, there's just no therapy that is that priceless.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so funny that you said that, Cheryl, because literally my next note is quoting you again because I'm clearly obsessed with quoting you, so get ready. But I wrote biscuit making is all about touch, so work gently, but with purpose.
Cheryl Day:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I can't tell you the great ideas that I've come up with with my hands in the bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. The final tool before we jump into the assembly that I just wanted to mention is, and this is what makes a cathead biscuit so great, is that you're literally scooping, the final tool would be this three ounce ice cream or portion scoop that you are using too, which I just love.
Cheryl Day:
That was the revolutionary ‘aha moment’ that happened when I realized I could just scoop those little babies out and you don't have any waste at all. And then you just scoop them, you tap them lightly, like what you would a cookie or a big cookie or something like that and then you can do your egg wash or if I do a fruit, like a dried fruit or something like that, you could also just do a little milk wash or a heavy cream wash too. Again, it's just being creative in the kitchen. You do you.
Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent. Hold onto your whisk because we'll be right back peeps.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everybody, Radio Cherry Bombe host Kerry Diamond here. I want to tell you a little bit about Jessie's latest book, Snackable Bakes: 100 Easy-Peasy Recipes for Exceptionally Scrumptious Sweets and Treats. It's the perfect cookbook for anyone who loves baking from scratch, but is pressed for time, which I'm guessing is most of us. All of Jesse's recipes can be assembled in less than 20 minutes with pantry friendly ingredients and short, easy to follow instructions. Whether you need a sweet treat for yourself for a bake sale, dessert swap, or potluck, Jessie's got you covered.
While Jessie loves a snackable bake, she is not a fan of cleaning up. So most of her recipes come together with nothing more than a bowl, a whisk and a spatula. I love that because I managed to use every bowl and utensil I own when I bake. I don't know why that happens, but it does. Jessie's recipes include epic snickerdoodles, raspberry crumb topped pie with easiest ever crust, the dreamiest chocolate peanut butter cup, that's my personal fave, apple pie bars and devil's food snacking cake with marshmallow frosting. Sound yummy? Then pick up a copy of Snackable Bakes for yourself or a beloved baker at your favorite local bookstore.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you, Kerry. Back to Cheryl. So just to go through those assembly steps of that cathead biscuit, we're tossing the butter in with our hands at first before we're grabbing our pastry cutter. And then I love how you describe the butter and its coarse, sandy patches to flat shaggy pieces to pea-size chunks and some larger bits.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, you want all of those.
Jessie Sheehan:
In my head I can picture each one, but can you tell people what they're looking for and maybe there's a teeny bit of smearing going on either with fingers or that pastry blender?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, sure. So first of all, the first thing you're going to do is you're going to take your cubed butter and toss it because that is your little extra insurance. You're making sure that you're coating the butter in the flour. And so when they go in the oven, everything's coated and nothing's leaking out and you're not having a big mess in the oven. And then that's when you go in with your pastry cutter. You're just basically not wanting everything to be uniform. I guess that's another part of my creativity. And also knowing that it doesn't have to be... I know a lot of recipes say all pea-size, some of it is you're smearing, some of you will have flat pieces. It's a very therapeutic, tactile experience making biscuits and/or pies because again, it's the same method for me. Basically you want a variety, you pick it up in your hand and you see a variety and when you bake those, you're going to see that is the flakiness that you're going to get. It's not all uniform, it's just a variety of texture and flakiness and delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then you're going to make a well, which basically for peeps that don't know, just making a space in the middle of your dough so you can get that buttermilk in there. And this is what I really love, Cheryl, you write in the directions that you're going to mix the buttermilk in with one hand. Is that insurance against over mixing? You're just saying to use one hand or am I reading too much into it?
Cheryl Day:
No, that's trying to keep one hand clean. Basically, you're mixing it with one hand. And yeah, that's actually a really good point that you're not over mixing if you're just using one hand, keep one hand clean, which it's so funny that I say that because at the end of it, I probably also say somewhere in the book that you're going to make a mess at the end. A delicious mess. But I always start out that way because then sometimes, you may have to stop and you can go in there then with a spatula if you need to. But yeah, just to get that feeling of what the dough, I think that's so important. I mean, that's a little bit woo woo maybe, I don't know, but I just feel like there is something about having that connection to your food when you're making something that does extend when it's baked. I mean, that's something that you're making for someone.
There's something Griff and I always used to say and we still say it to this day. We always think of ourselves as just, because we have long lines of people that wait to come in and we make a lot of product, but we just think of ourselves as one, we're making something for one person to enjoy. I just think of that one person that's going to enjoy it instead of thinking that maybe I'll have 300 people today or whatever. So yeah, I just think it's important to have that connection. And I think using your hands does give you that.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it's also, people talk about being able to taste the love in the food that they eat.
Cheryl Day:
Right. I was trying not to be cliche and say that, but I mean, it is so true. I mean, I always say that bakers are the sweetest folks on earth and it's so true. I mean, some of us are savory too. At the end of the day, I just think bakers are just so caring and think about what they're creating for people.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I know you write that if you have at a certain amount of buttermilk, but you also say if the dough seems a little dry, add a little more. Obviously, if it's a little wet, you're a little bit in trouble. But I know that can be a teeny bit scary for people. Like, oh my gosh, I have to add more? Is it a weather dependent thing, Cheryl?
Cheryl Day:
Absolutely, yes, of course, it's a rate of absorption and if you live somewhere that it's humid, it's going to be one thing. And really one thing that I do tell bakers, especially if they're just starting out, take notes. I mean, chances are it's going to be the same if you're doing it. Well, actually most things are going to be different every day. But take notes on what's different, what you might want to change. And really, I think baking is such a therapy of being present and really paying attention to what you're doing. It's like you can't just be automatic pilot. You really have to pay attention and see how things are different. You can't just think it's going to be the same every day. Your results are going to be exactly the same. Sometimes things change and you just have to really be present and pay attention to all of those things.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love this. It's not needing exactly, but you say to after you've added your buttermilk and you're good to go, you're turning the dough onto itself in the bowl. Can you tell people what that means to turn the dough onto itself?
Cheryl Day:
So in the bowl, so since it's a one bowl method, you are basically doing a fold. We don't want to call it really lamination, but it kind of sort of is, I mean, anytime you do a fold like that. So you're folding it onto itself to create another layer. They're really going to be flakier than you think. I mean, some drop biscuits are just soft, but these have texture and flakiness and that fold helps with that. Another thing that you can do, and it depends on how experienced people are, because I think sometimes people do tend to over mix. Another method I'll tell people to do is take your bench scraper and just cut straight through the middle and then take the bottom piece and put it on the top piece. And then that's creating a layer, very much how I do the flaky biscuits. But you can also do that same method with this, and then that way you won't have the tendency to overwork your dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
I just love that all of this is happening in one bowl because when I first read it, I was like, oh, are you transferring that onto your work surface? But you're not. You're literally doing it in the bowl, which I hope people realize is just straight up genius. I love it so much.
Cheryl Day:
Unless you love washing dishes and cleaning up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. And then I also love this when you're ready to go and you're going to begin scooping, you want to pat that dough until it resembles a loaf of bread. I just love that imagery. I thought that was great.
Cheryl Day:
Oh, thank you, thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're welcome. You're welcome. Then you're scooping with that portion scoop and you're putting all 12 biscuits onto your sheet pan that's been lined with parchment. I've read sometimes, Cheryl, people will have you almost put all of your biscuits into a 9x13 pan because there's some theory that if they're touching, they rise higher.
Cheryl Day:
I mean, I think Edna Lewis's recipe is that way actually where the biscuits kiss is how she described it, and then that pushes up the others. Yeah, it's not necessary for this particular biscuit to do that. Actually, none of my biscuits, I don't really do any of them that way, but there's definitely recipes that you'll find that they have them just barely kiss. And they're all together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Gotcha. All right. I want to move on to the flaky butter biscuits, which is a recipe from the bakery and it's in Treasury and it's a little more complex because there's some cutting and stacking and folding and I noticed in this recipe, in terms of the ingredients, it's still a combination of all purpose and cake, but this time it's not like a half and half ratio anymore.
Cheryl Day:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us a little bit why it's a little different?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah. I mean, so it's a totally different texture that biscuit, it's got a lot more butter in there and it's going to be more like a layered flaky biscuit. Whereas the biscone or cathead is, it's just a totally different texture. I mean, they really are unique from each other. It's a totally different recipe. So the texture's going to be totally different. It's not the gateway, but it's the first recipe in the Treasury. And I'd sell a lot of cookbooks at the bakery because after someone has one, they ask if that recipe is in the cookbook. And it took me several books to create this version and put it in the cookbook.
Jessie Sheehan:
This one has powder and soda, so it's a variety of leavenings and a little bit more. And again, we're after flaky layered.
Cheryl Day:
Exactly. And it's reacting to the buttermilk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing. I also love, this one's a little different too. There's no egg wash this time. It's melted butter, which is also special.
Cheryl Day:
Absolutely. More butter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Always a good idea. The tools in terms of this recipe are a tiny bit different, only because we're going to need a two and a quarter inch biscuit cutter and a rolling pin, although you did say you could use your hands. Can you tell us what rolling pin you love for making biscuits?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, I am probably one of the few people that still uses like a grandma-style rolling pin. I don't use a French rolling pin. I've had a lot of folks work for me and that's all they use. I don't know. I use kind with the ball bearings. It's the kind I learned how to bake with my grandmother. I like the heft of it. I like how it feels in my hands. I love it. I take good care of it and I hope I have it forever. I do have a collection of rolling pins, as you would imagine. And at home I will use just a straight rolling pin if I'm just doing 12 to 16 biscuits or whatever the recipe calls for. And you can also pat it down by hand.
I'll never forget one time I had Judy, my editor, who you know, of many years over for breakfast when we were working on the Treasury and I thought it was hilarious that I did not have a lot of my ingredients at my house. And one of the things I didn't have, I didn't have my big rolling pin. And so I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm having Judy over for breakfast and I don't have a rolling pin to make these." So I just patted them down. It's not that big of a deal and used my other little rolling pin and it was totally fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
In terms of the assembly, it's the same oven temp, but it gets a teeny bit different than catheads because you're going to turn out the dough onto the work surface. And I know it's so fancy, but you're going to fraisage the butter or for dough, but could you tell people what that fancy word means and what you want them to do?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, that's the only fancy French word that I use in baking, a fraisage. It's a way of incorporating the butter into the flour where it's smearing it is it another way of saying it in English. And then it just creates these layers into the dough and then so you'll fraisage that again, another therapy project and then you'll turn it and then also there's cutting and all that good stuff because you're basically building layers. There's one thing I will say about this recipe. You can actually use every drop of biscuit dough, which is very unusual because sometimes the biscuit dough will tend to get tough towards the end. These just get flakier and flakier. The one thing I will say is you may have at the end some that look like little leaning towers of pizza because they're so flaky because you've created so many layers at that point that they just lean over in the oven. But oh my God, those are sometimes the best one because you can literally see how many layers there are in those.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And for people that don't know what Cheryl's talking about scraps because with pie dough, with biscuit dough that you're cutting out, you will have a little bit left over and some recipes will tell you, you can't turn that into a biscuit because it won't be as fluffy or tender or this or that, so that's wonderful to know about these-
Cheryl Day:
Every drop for that particular recipe you can use.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now we're going to get into something that, I don't know if this is scary or not, but maybe not everyone knows about it. I call them letter folds. You're calling them a tri-fold in the recipe. Can you tell people about what happens to the dough once you've finished fraisaging, it's on the counter and it's time to do some folding.
Cheryl Day:
So you'll do your tri-folds or letter fold. I think I've said it both ways and that's basically the same thing. And then maybe sometimes people don't remember how to fold a letter, Jessie, to put it in the envelope. So it's a little tri-fold that you're creating more layers. And then I'll have you cut it down the middle with a bench scraper and stack it as well. Again, if you don't feel comfortable with the folds, you can certainly do the stacking a couple more times. It's one of those things.
Biscuits are definitely a rite of passage in Southern baking, but it's something that you can't expect to do perfect on the first time. It's something that you have a relationship with and you do them every so often and you'll see that you'll start to feel more comfortable and your biscuits will come out better. I cannot tell you how many people I've had write me that say, this is the best biscuit they've ever made. So we started doing our biscuit mix, which has all of the ingredients in there too. And that's one of the provisions that we have, so everybody can make that same biscuit and follow these directions and make them at home because I think everybody needs to know how to make a biscuit.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it's funny, I've been letter folding pie dough since back in the day, I guess, back in the day, that's the bakery. I never have done that with a biscuit and I think that's spectacular.
Cheryl Day:
It's funny. I mean I think you'll be great at making these biscuits, Jessie, because really I make my pie dough in a very similar way. I mean, it's very similar how I make it to create those flaky, you're getting flaky layers with pie dough too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you cut the dough with the bench scraper the way you do with biscuits when you make pie?
Cheryl Day:
I do. I do and I stack the bottom to the top and then I'll cut it again and stack it until I start to see those layers that are just so satisfying to see when you cut into a biscuit or pie dough, you can literally see them.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just so people can visualize this, Cheryl's literally cutting the dough in half on the counter than taking one half and putting it on top of the other. And then you roll it out again. Yes?
Cheryl Day:
Right, or sometimes I'll cut it again and stack again. I mean, you'll get the feeling of your dough and you'll see if it's starting to resist that you're not going to do that, but if it's super hot or if it's super warm, I can definitely do that or if it's cold, sometimes you can do it, but you just have to get the feeling of your dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
When it's time to start cutting and I do want you to tell us a little bit about punching out the biscuits because there's an art there.
Cheryl Day:
There is.
Jessie Sheehan:
But you're doing about an inch. You're either patting or rolling your dough into about an inch. Now, I've seen biscuit recipes that are one and a half inches, but my guess is that doesn't even matter when you're making this flaky biscuit, they're going to rise.
Cheryl Day:
I mean, they're going to rise. You could definitely do it a little bit thinner. If you want to make a few more, you'll get a few more biscuits. If you do it a little thinner, it's still going to puff up and rise. You can do mini biscuits, but yes, so when you get to the cutting, that's the one thing that is very important. You want to make sure that you're not twisting the cutter when you cut it. And I know a lot of folks like to cut, especially in bakeries, they'll cut with a sharp knife and do square biscuits. And I mean, that's great.
But I find that you will get the dough when you're cutting it with a knife, it kind of pinches a little bit and it doesn't get as flaky as I think mine do. But I mean, it's still going to be flaky, but you know what I mean? When you cut it, I mean, it's going to seal it a little bit if you're doing it with a knife versus doing it with a biscuit cutter that's going to do it straight down, but it does make it easier. And a lot of people just like to cut. And maybe they'll be a little on the sides that will not flake up all the way, but they'll still be beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've always known not to twist that cutter, but I had never heard the explanation that you're actually, when you twist, you're sealing the edges and you're precluding the rise. And I thought that was so interesting.
Cheryl Day:
Exactly. And you're going to want to dip your cutter into your flour, like your bench flour that you have each time. I had someone once that wanted to spray the cutter and I didn't quite understand the logic behind that. But anyway, but obviously, that's also going to affect... You're basically wanting to get a straight edge because if you get that straight edge, that's exactly how they're going to bake straight and beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you can do that easily with a sharp cutter. You go down and up. But if you do it with a knife, and I am partial to the knife kind just because it's a little easier, but you are absolutely right, it's impossible to knife straight down and then pull up without... You're going to seal.
Cheryl Day:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's so interesting.
Cheryl Day:
But I mean, it's still a great biscuit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, yes, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. So then you're brushing with a little melted butter, you're baking, you're rotating, you're eating. Yum, yum, yum. Heavenly angel biscuits, which I'm madly in love with, it's another Treasury recipe. This one, to me, is so genius because you're getting some of that rise from yeast, yet you are not requiring that that dough sit on the counter for an hour, anything like that. So please, please, please tell us everything.
Cheryl Day:
I mean, it's pretty straightforward. That's another old timey recipe. It's almost more like a yeasted roll. They're great for making little ham sandwiches or little savory sandwiches, but it's a totally different kind of biscuit. And people in the South know all of these biscuits and love them all for different reasons. But yeah, it's more like a little yeasted... The texture is more like a roll, I would say, yeah, but super simple to make.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Well I noticed it has self-rising flour in it, which I have to say is one of my favorite ingredients. You don't see very much in recipes. I try to bring it into my recipes because even though I am not from the South, all of the baking that you do that's all my favorite stuff. And often you-
Cheryl Day:
But the thing about self-rising flour is, is that I always wondered how do you know how much leavening you're really getting? So in that recipe, the little bit of yeast definitely gives you that extra insurance basically. I may even have said that in my head. I mean, basically that yeast is going to give you that little extra insurance to make sure you get a nice rise because as much as I love self-rising flour just with regular flaky biscuits, I did once use it at one time, and I just didn't find that my biscuits were what I quite wanted them to be as far as the texture and the rise.
Jessie Sheehan:
Makes sense. I have a scone recipe where I use it, but I add, just like you do in this recipe, there's a little soda, I add a little leavening as well. That makes perfect sense.
Cheryl Day:
A little extra insurance.
Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent.
Cheryl Day:
Makes it easy peasy as Jessie would say.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, which is always my fave. And then one more thing, there's a little shortening in this recipe, in addition to the butter.
Cheryl Day:
Again, another old fashioned recipe, grandma would've mixed, actually my grandmother may have just used all shortening, but I like to do that mix with the flavor. In one of my earlier cookbooks, I did another biscuit recipe and it was a mix as well. I've done pie recipes that I've mixed shortening. It's just an old fashioned technique, but I love the taste of butter. I love butter so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love butter too, but I love to put a little shortening in some of my cookies so they don't spread as much.
Cheryl Day:
Oh yeah, molasses cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God. A hundred percent. So I am not just for the record, I'm not anti shortening in case anybody's taking a poll. I love shortening. And then in terms of the assembly, it's pretty similar. There's needing on the counter, but you're not doing the folding because you probably don't need it. It's a different vibe.
Cheryl Day:
Exactly. Biscuits for all.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then the final biscuit that is in Treasury and then I just wanted to touch on is the sweet potato biscuit.
Cheryl Day:
Yes. That's one of my favorites actually.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. And we have a mixture of cake flour in all purpose, but we have the addition of some sweet potatoes. Can you just talk about where that comes from and what that's like and the whole shebang?
Cheryl Day:
Well, sweet potato is a pantry staple in the South. I think it's becoming more of a staple all over the country, but we're very fortunate here in the South. It's something I grew up with. I grew up in Los Angeles, but my mom was from the South, so we always had sweet potatoes and I just love the flavor. You could use pumpkin, as well, if you wanted to. And you don't have sweet potatoes on hand because you will need to roast the sweet potatoes first. But the flavor of them is just so delicious, putting a little honey butter on top or making a ham sandwich. But basically, it's very similar to the flaky biscuit in texture, but that is just another part of the liquid is the sweet potato or like I said, you could use pumpkin too.
Jessie Sheehan:
And there's no folding in that one, right? You're adding your ingredients, you're doing a little bit of kneading, but you're not doing the folding in the cutting.
Cheryl Day:
It's a little messier because of the sweet potato too, but it's very similar to the flaky biscuit.
Jessie Sheehan:
One other thing I loved, which I think I saw in the Back in the Day Bakery cookbook, but Griff's chicken and vegetable cobbler, like his hot dish.
Cheryl Day:
Oh yeah. Very Minnesota.
Jessie Sheehan:
And doesn't that have biscuits on top of it?
Cheryl Day:
It does, it does. And those are basically biscones. And those will be next to each other side by side, like a little cobbler. And I love to put some fresh herbs on top. That recipe is, this time of year, it is just incredible. I mean, just so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. It looked so good to me. And I loved the idea of different ways you can use biscuits besides all the amazing ways with a little-
Cheryl Day:
Oh, we could talk a lot about using biscuits in different ways. Croutons. I mean, we don't ever have leftover biscuits very often, but we will make extra to do croutons and one of my favorite things is our Southern party mix that we make with biscuit croutons. That's delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Can you just describe that a little bit for us? What a Southern party mix like?
Cheryl Day:
So yeah, it's like a typical party Chex Mix kind of mix, with worcestershire and all those good things. But we make biscuit croutons, and I think Griff puts a little Zab's, which is one of our favorite hot sauces in there and tosses it together. There's butter, of course, more butter. Sometimes we put nuts with them. I have a peanut allergy, so we'll usually do other nuts, cashews or almonds, and it is addictive. It is so good. It's actually in the Treasury. You'll have to make some.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. I am going to go and find that recipe right now because I also love the idea of little tiny biscuits in a Chex Mix, it's brilliant.
Cheryl Day:
Right, or you could do like a panzanella salad with croutons. I mean, there's just so many things that you could do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey, you're blowing my biscuit mind. Anyway, Cheryl, I just wanted to thank you so much for coming on the show and just wanted you to know that you are my cherry pie.
Cheryl Day:
Aw, thank you, Jessie. I am so excited to be a part of this podcast. Thanks for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cheryl, thank you so much for joining us. You can follow Cheryl and all her businesses on Instagram, and you can pick up a copy of her book, Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking at your favorite bookstore. Don't miss any episodes of She's My Cherry Pie. Sign up for the Cherry Bombe newsletter at cherrybombe.com to learn about all the episodes and other news from Cherry Bombe HQ. She's My Cherry Pie and Radio Cherry Bombe are a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Thanks to the team at CityVox Studios, executive producers Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and assistant producer Jenna Sadhu. Thank you for listening to She's My Cherry Pie. Happy baking peeps.