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SMCP Hetty McKinnon Transcript

 Hetty McKinnon Transcript


























Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest “Snackable Bakes.”Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes. 

Today's guest is Hetty Lui McKinnon, the recipe developer and cookbook author of books such as “Community,” “Family,” and “Neighborhood.” Those who know and love Hetty closely associate her with veggies of all kinds. So, it's no surprise her brand new cookbook is a love letter to her favorite food group. It's titled “"Tenderheart": A Cookbook About Vegetables And Unbreakable Family Bonds.”So, why is Hetty on our baking podcast? Well, because “"Tenderheart"” has a number of recipes for baked goods, including the one we're going to discuss today, Hetty's ginger and coconut mochi cake. Stay tuned for my chat with Hetty. 

Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter and California Prunes for their support. I've been a fan of Plugra for some time, as anyone who has peaked in my fridge can attest. I was introduced to Plugra by my coworkers at my very first bakery job, and I continue to use Plugra today in my work as a professional baker, recipe developer and cookbook author. Because of what I do for a living, I go through a lot of butter, as you can imagine. I especially love that Plugra contains 82% butter fat because the higher butter fat content means less moisture and more fat. And as bakers know, fat equals flavor. Plus, it's slow churned, making it more pliable and easy to work with. I use Plugra Premium European Style Unsalted Butter when making either my easy-peasy melted butter pie dough or my traditional cold butter pie dough. I also love the buttery flavor Plugra adds to my favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe, which also calls for melted butter. Can you tell melted butter is one of my ingredient obsessions these days? However you use it, Plugra Premium European Style Butter is the perfect choice from professional kitchens to your home kitchen. Ask for Plugra at your favorite grocery store or visit Plugra.com for a store locator. 

Let's check in with today's guest. Hetty, so excited to have you on...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Jessie.

Jessie Sheehan:
... She's My Cherry Pie and to talk ginger mochi cake with you, and so much more.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Wow. This is so amazing to be here.

Jessie Sheehan:
The baking recipe we're going to talk about today is from your new book, “"Tenderheart.” And spoiler alert listeners, "Tenderheart" is very much not a baking book, but instead a book about Hetty's favorite vegetables and some fruit as well. Nigella Lawson describes "Tenderheart" as a love letter to vegetables and almost a memoir through recipes. Can you, Hetty, unpack what Nigella means by that?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I mean, okay, so it's hard book for me to put into words because there's so much. On the surface level, it's 22 of my favorite vegetables. But the reason why I love vegetables, I mean, I call this my vegetable origin story. In working on this book and thinking about the role that vegetables have played in my life, I had to go back right to the beginning to my dad.

My dad worked at the produce markets in Sydney. He was a banana monger and he filled our house with vegetables and fruits and just fresh things like not only just fruits and vegetables, but fish and seafood and everything like that. So, a lot of my love of vegetables really stems from that, and the memories of those. And I don't think that's really something that I touched upon or even realized before I worked on this book.

As people that own my books know, I do like to write first person narrative memory and the sense of nostalgia, and the sense of longing is a huge driving force in everything I do. So, I don't know if I really know how to write about food without those parameters actually.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that's amazing. I know that you and I had spoken about the fact that I think the book originally when it came out in Australia had a banana on the cover.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you had said to me, that's very symbolic. That's important. You'll understand when you read the book. And so, I just loved learning about your dad and selling bananas as a teenager at the Sydney market. And, of course, why that was so important to you, that should be on the cover. I just loved connecting my conversations with you to the book, so I thought that was really beautiful.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, the American cover has a yellow zucchini, looks like a banana, not quite a banana. But the banana, it requires you to dig a bit deeper into the story before you understand why that is actually on the cover of the book.

But what I loved about working on this book is that, I really allowed myself to remember him. And that's something that I don't think I've really allowed myself to do because you move on life, big moments in life happen. You go to college, you get married, you have children, you move across the world, and so much of what you hold onto is the present rather than what happened many years ago.

So, trying to unpack the role that he played in my life, and just all those small memories that I talk about in the book that's scattered through the book, it was very joyous for me to allow myself to go there again.

Jessie Sheehan:
It's such a gift. So, it was his job working at the vegetable market, and the fact that he brought home crates of produce and as you write, taught you about the beauty and versatility of fruit and vegetables, which is just so amazing. It wasn't necessarily how he prepared them in any way for you or a particular dish. It was literally, I think growing up that living amongst cartons of fruit and vegetables seemed completely normal to you. And talk to me about that.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. I mean, this was our life. Almost all my memories of being young are of food in some way. I think that there were always bananas on the dining table, which nobody ate because we were very sick of bananas. But then, everything my dad brought home was in boxes and crates, boxes of oranges. My dad finished every meal with an orange. I don't know why, but he just loved oranges.

And then, I just remember just having to step over boxes to get to a certain place. We had everything on the cusp of seasonality. Because at the markets, everything comes out before you get it in your actual stores. So, I remember stone fruit season, the first cherries of the season, the first mangoes of the season. My mom was the major cook in the family, but she never shopped for food like fresh produce. It all came from the markets.

So, we were really spoiled and I don't ever remember like, nowadays, you hear about people not liking vegetables or not knowing what vegetables are or certain vegetables, and I just never had that. It was just so foundational to our lives was this having just this abundance surrounded by abundance. My dad shared that abundance. He loved giving things away.

I remember going to our family doctor and he would never go without a crate of something, a box of oranges, a huge crate of stoned fruit or mangoes. And we also gave relatives and friends like boxes of fruit and vegetables as gifts. So, yeah, it's really amazing to think about it because before this book, I don't think I ever touched upon that abundance in my life when I was younger.

So, now that it's such a preoccupation, this actual obsession with vegetables, which I do think about constantly. I literally am very obsessed with vegetables and thinking about what I can do with them, how can I encourage other people to love them more like, it's my life's work really. I wonder where that came from and I think it all came from those early years.

Jessie Sheehan:
Now, I think I know the answer to this, but was there ever any baking happening in your childhood home or any sweets making that your mom was doing? And is there any baking happening in your house like your husband, your kids? I know you're not a big baker.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I'm not a big baker. I do often bake for... Look, when I bake in my family right now, I bake for my family. But my mom is a proud non-baker, and she would say it all the time, "Oh, I don't know how to bake. I don't know how to bake." She would have flour and it's probably got weevils in it because she's had it for 30 years, but she'll still keep it.

But there were certain sweets, and you probably won't be surprised by this. But the sweets were things like red beans soup, black sesame soup, like Tong sui is sweet soup, which is often what Cantonese people end the meal with. So, it was not a staple, but she would. If she was making anything sweet, it would be something like that.

The black sesame soup, I still crave the flavor of black sesame because of that soup. And then, grass jelly. So, grass jelly is, I don't even know what it's made of, but it's herbal and it's a little bit bitter and it comes in a can. It comes out like a whole solidified...

Jessie Sheehan:
Yup, like cranberries, cranberries.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. Basically, it looks like cranberries. It comes out, it's actually black. And then, she'd slice it up. And then, she would make a syrup out of bingtang, which is black sugar. So, brown, block sugar, which is quite hard to buy. You can buy it at Chinese grocery stores.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
So, I think desserts like that. But there was definitely... I don't remember any baking.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, fascinating.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, now before we jump into the recipe, I did want to say that I just love the quote at the start of the book about love and grief being sisters or being inextricably linked. And now, don't worry peeps, I know this is a baking podcast and I promise not to get too sad. But I just lost my dad pretty recently, Hetty.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, I'm sorry.

Jessie Sheehan:
And so, I feel like I understand that quote so well, which obviously, you've understood it for years. But that idea that your love, and then something that feels so bad, but that something that feels so good, like this book for you is a way to process that grief and bring the love out.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
It is. Yeah, I mean, you don't have one without the other.

Jessie Sheehan:
Right.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
If you don't love, you don't grieve. You grieve because you love.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
So, that's not something that... It's really odd to lose a parent when you're... And I think I talk about this too, but before you're fully formed.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I remember those... And again, I don't want to get too down, but I remember losing my dad, at that time, all I thought about was practicalities. I was just 15. So, I thought about... I lost him on New Year's Eve, 1989, and I remember thinking, it's the school holidays. Thank God, I don't have to go to school and explain why I no longer have a dad.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And it was like, I went back to school a month later and I was very focused on people just thinking everything was normal. I don't even know. I think people knew and found out about it, but it was just all those things of a weird way of processing loss and death when you're... And death is still very taboo in our society like how do you talk about it?

For me, and this is very much my personality, I never want other people to feel uncomfortable. I always want to make them comfortable. So, in processing his grief as a 15-year-old, I was more worried about how are my friends who are teenagers going to deal with me having lost my father? And there's just years of that.

And so, as you grow up, people ask you about your parents, and then it's always like... For me, for many years it was a cursory when my father passed away when I was young, and then we just move on ahead. Nobody wants to talk about it. And a part of it was really for me embracing that almost that this is a part of my story, and it's a part of a lot of people's stories. And if we can't actually process the death part of it, we're never going to be able to process the memories.

And I think for me, working on this book and really leaning heavily into the memories and allowing myself to think about him again, and allowing myself to really feel sad, that's what I want to offer in writing about this in a cookbook. I want to offer comfort always.

So, it's not like you have to have lost someone to appreciate this book, but it's really, I feel like recently I've been thinking most of my books are really about love in a way. It's like love and all the emotions that are inextricably linked with love. So, yeah, I think there's more about love than anything else maybe.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, of course. And it's also like the book can help those who are grieving or feeling lost. But also, help them because it's a book full of delicious food, including a ginger and coconut mochi cake. That's my segue.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
We're finally talking about the cake.

Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes. I'm a California Prunes fan when it comes to smart snacking and baking. First off, California Prunes are good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. Prunes contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health, potassium to support heart health and vitamin K, copper and antioxidants to support healthy bones. And, of course, prunes are a great addition to scones, cakes and crackers. Anything you are baking that calls for dried fruit, consider California Prunes. Prunes work perfectly in recipes with rich and complex flavors like espresso, olives and chilies, and they enhance the flavor of warm spices, toffee, caramel and chocolate.

If you love baking swaps and experimenting with natural sweeteners, you can replace some of the sugar in a recipe with California Prune Puree. Prune puree is a cinch to make as it's a blend of prunes and water. You can find more details on the California Prunes website, Californiaprunes.org.

While you're there, be sure to check out all the delicious recipes, including the salty snack chocolate fudge with pretzels and California prunes inspired by the recipe from my cookbook, Snackable Bakes. Happy baking and happy snacking.

Kerry Diamond:
Hi everybody, I'm Kerry Diamond, the founder of Cherry Bombe and the Editor-in-Chief of Cherry Bombe Magazine. The Cherry Bombe online shop is temporarily closed because we're switching warehouses. If you are looking for the newest issue of Cherry Bombe, be sure to visit one of our amazing stockists. Cherry Bombe is carried by great bookstores, cafes, magazine shops and culinary boutiques across the country and abroad. Places like Back in the Day Bakery in Savannah, Good Cakes and Bakes in Detroit, and Le Dix-Sept Pâtisserie in San Francisco. Visit Cherrybombe.com, first stockist near you.

Jessie Sheehan:
This dessert looked so delicious. And actually, when I first got the book and I was thinking about what I was going to make, this was the thing that I wanted to make.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, I'm so excited that we get to talk about it. But first things first. You say that your favorite Chinese dessert is growing up were of the chewy, stretchy variety and that those kind of represent childhood and home. Tell us what is chewy and stretchy like the way it feels in your mouth.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
So, this dessert is made with glutenous rice flour, and many Chinese desserts are made with glutenous rice flour that stretchiness, that chewiness. Dim sum, you have the white oval ball with the coconut on the outside, it's called Lo Mai Chi. That was one of my favorites. And that can come with a red bean, it can come with lotus.

My favorite is actually peanut and coconut as the filling. Those for me, going to a Chinese bakery, they're the things that I always go for first. That chewiness is... It could be like, if you didn't grow up with, it can be quite odd in the beginning because it's like, "Hey, what's going on here?" When you bite into a cake, you expect the crumb to be light and you expect to be airy. But there's nothing... It's not airy. It's an amazing texture.

And I think a lot of the foods that I grew up with, and the ones that I love most are textural. Like Cantonese food is very textural. So, there's a lot of these kind of foods made with glutenous rice flour like starches. For me, it's like it does taste like home.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you also mentioned a cake, which I think also must taste like home too, which was your mother's New Year's cake?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes. So, this really is an iteration of Nian Gao. It means, like sticky cake, but it's also a homonym for... Nián means year. Gāo means, is a homonym for higher or tall. So, there's a lot of symbolism in Chinese culture and Chinese celebrations, and particularly the Lunar New Year. So, that's what every family will have on a table, almost like an altar. You'll have these kind of cakes.

So, this is an iteration of that. That cake is a much simpler cake. It's actually, it's... I don't even know if you really call it a cake, but it's steamed for one, and it's made essentially with three ingredients, glutenous rice flour, the black sugar, the bingtang, the brown, black, sugar and water, and it's steamed. And that's in its most basic form.

And then, you have that around the house as good luck, prosperity for the Lunar New year. And then, the way it's eaten, you can eat it just by slicing off little chunks, but what most families do is they will fry it. And it's quite an odd flavor because my mom would most often just fry it, but you can dip it in egg, and then fry it.

So, it brings that dessert to a savory spot, which I think pretty much sums up most of the desserts in my book. And the way I like to bake is this bringing the sweet back to the savory. Because in Chinese culture, there is this saying of not too sweet, which is actually the name of my dessert chapter in, To Asia, With Love.

Not too Sweet is a point of pride in Chinese families. It's the highest compliment that can be paid to any dessert is not too sweet. Most of my desserts are not too sweet. So, back to the Nian Gao, it is... So, this is really a version of it. And it's funny because I wanted to talk about this idea of mochi.

Mochi didn't exist when I was young. That word has really become part of popular culinary vernacular only in the last few years, I feel like. Mochi is a Japanese word. It does refer to stretchy desserts made with starches or made with glutenous rice flour.

Glutenous rice flour, for our listeners who might not know is also known as sticky rice flour or sweet rice flour. Some people just call it Mochiko, which is a brand of glutenous rice flour. So, mochi is quite a new term. When I was thinking about naming the cake, I wasn't quite sure what I would name it because butter mochi, which is the Hawaiian iteration, it's similar to this, but it has much more butter in there. And it's much more, I feel like it's more squidgy.

This is quite squidgy too. But a glutenous rice cake doesn't have the same ring as a mochi cake. And mochi is a word that everybody understands now. When you hear mochi, what do you think? You think chewy. You think stretchy?

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No, I was thinking of... It's like gooey and bouncy inside. It's crispy chewy on the outside.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
It has gluten. It's naturally gluten-free. You're right, it's evocative.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
It's evocative. And I think that's why that term has taken off. And I'm actually, quite grateful for it because it's a way of describing a food that I think some people don't even know what glutenous rice flour is, like what is this?

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's great. So, you say that the ginger coconut mochi cake offers all the chew and gooeyness of a childhood treat, but with ginger and coconut. And then, you're right, if you're new to glutenous rice or mochi desserts, and I was like raising my hand, me, you say what one needs to know is that the cake is not going to rise.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Not going to rise much.

Jessie Sheehan:
That once it's baked, it's still going to wobble and be a little bit difficult to slice until it's room temp and just about saving it on the counter for a couple of days. But you're better off freezing it. And I loved that, that you just gave us a little bit of like, okay, if you don't know what you're doing, let me explain.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, and I think I have almost a fear of dry cakes. It's one of my things. It's like, if that cake is dry, I'm not even going to bite into it because to me, it's not worth it.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
But so, the thing about the mochi cake, it's very hard to get a dry mochi cake. It's almost... I think it is the most fail-proof cake you're ever going to make because also there's no gluten in glutenous rice flour, which is the antithesis of what it's named. It's naturally gluten-free.

So, you can't overmix it. I mean, I don't mix it too much because it does develop bubbles and that's more important if you're steaming. But for this one, this mochi cake is actually baked. It's really hard to get it wrong.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You don't need any equipment. And I'm also like, I don't ever want to get out my KitchenAid if I don't have to.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Often, I will see a recipe and it says, cream the butter, and automatically I'm not doing it. This one literally is, you pull everything out and throw it all together.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And the hardest thing is, if you're new to it, knowing when it's ready. But you've got to know that if you bake it for a time that I've specified in the book, it's pretty much going to be ready. I mean, everyone's oven is slightly different.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, when one makes this cake, first things first, you're going to heat your oven to 350 and you're going to... We're grease our pan. Do you grease with butter or spray or coconut oil?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I'm super lazy. I always use spray. I use like a non-stick spray.

Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yup.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you line with parchment paper?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I do.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you usually do it in an eight-inch square baking dish?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I do it as a square because I like the shape when I've cut it. That's what I'm thinking. A Chinese Lunar New Year Nian Gao is always round because that's very symbolically good luck. Round has no beginning, no end. But for this, for my one, I like the squareness of it because I like being able to cut off either a slice.

Jessie Sheehan:
Or a sliver.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Or a sliver.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yup. And I love those sharp edges.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, same. And do you have a brand of cake pan that you love?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Recently, I realized because I shipped a lot of my... Or most of my cooking stuff over. I'm always updating things, but my baking gear was something that I hadn't updated until recently, I did go through and chuck out a bunch of stuff. I was like, "Why do I still have this from literally 15 years ago?" It's rusting. I'm like, I can actually afford a new muffin tin or a new square baking tin. So, I did buy a very nice one. It's a Nordic Ware one.

Jessie Sheehan:
Nice.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I'm a bit of a fan of the old Nordic Ware.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. Again, no sharp edges and they're very straight.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. Yeah, I think Nordic Ware is great. And you also say that you can do this in a round pan?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
Or you say even a spring form, just make sure you put it on a sheet pan in case the butter seeps out.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, so the butter is quite runny. That's also like a signature of glutenous rice flour. It doesn't thicken up at all. Unlike cake butter that can get thicker the more you whip it, it doesn't do any of that. So, it does look runny when you put it in the pan, but it'll be okay.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, the first thing we're going to do is that we are going to place four eggs in a large bowl. And I was just going to ask, do you have a bowl? Do you like to use glass Pyrex bowls? Do you like to use metal bowls? When Hetty's baking in the kitchen, what bowl are we picturing her with?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I have two bowls I will use. One is, I have a lovely set from Mud Australia, which is deep mixing bowls, but I like them because they have a little spout. I like the spout, but they're heavy. But I have them out. Most of my gear is out, ready to go. And then, I also love the material kitchen bowls because they're light. So, they're the two brands of bowls I would use.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. I love it. So, into our bowl, we're going to whisk four eggs...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Four eggs.

Jessie Sheehan:
... and whisk them 30 seconds, a minute. Are you just breaking up the yolks?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Enough to, yeah, have them... The yolks and the whites.

Jessie Sheehan:
Incorporated.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Incorporate them out, faded.

Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect, perfect.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
But we are not whipping air into them.

Jessie Sheehan:
Right, right. And then, we're going to whisk in our glutenous or sweet rice flour. And you mentioned this brand before, but just in case people want to try and find it, you said Mochiko.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
There's Mochikoo, which is the Japanese. It's from Koda Farms in California. A fantastic brand and very available now.

Jessie Sheehan:
Awesome.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Erewhon is a Thai rice flour, glutenous rice flour, and it's more available at Asian grocery stores. And people from Asian households really will know these brands because they come... There's the green for the glutenous and the red, which is the normal rice flour. And then, there's I think the blue is a tapioca starch. And people who've grown up will really know, will identify with that brand.

But I buy them on bulk. They're so cheap from Chinatown. They're usually on special, usually get three packs for two bucks. And they're very finely milled, and I really love that. You can also... There's Bob's Red Mill. Bob's Red Mill is amazing for big supermarkets because they have all the starch...

Jessie Sheehan:
Do they have glutenous?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
They have stick... They call it... I think they call it sweet rice flour.

Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, good to know.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Bob's Red Mill, sweet rice flour.

Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You cannot get Mochiko, and you cannot get to an Asian grocery store. That one is going to be your best friend. And that's why, I think it's amazing because they also have all the types of tapioca. They have everything.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, they're amazing.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
So, it's really... It's great to have it. Like my local supermarket in Park Slope has it. It's great. It's great.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. So, we have our eggs, then we whisk in our flour. And now, we're going to whisk in two cans of coconut milk, full fat coconut milk.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, always.

Jessie Sheehan:
Always. Me too. Yeah, is there even any other comment?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, there's no other option.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, and is there a brand you like about...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Basically, I mean, I love the brands from the Asian grocery stores. I feel like they're fattier for some reason, and they're probably not. But I feel like they are. And I like that extra fat in just if you're going to go, you're going to with coconut milk, you might as well go all the way. But from my local supermarket, I think I just use that Thai kitchen brand...

Jessie Sheehan:
Yup, I use that.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
The one that's everywhere.

Jessie Sheehan:
Totally. And do you have to like... Since we're using the whole cans, I'm assuming we don't, but do we need to open the can whisk inside the can to...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I don't.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. Sometimes, you have to do that because the solids at the bottom.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, it's always. Yeah, it's always separated...

Jessie Sheehan:
But it doesn't matter. Perfect.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
... but that's because...

Jessie Sheehan:
You just going to combine it anyway. You just chuck the whole stuff. Perfect. Then, you're going to whisk in some granulated sugar. Could you use brown sugar or would that...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, you can. I mean, I'm also very... I will use what I have, a lot of the time. The brown sugar is going to... Just add some more caramel notes to it. With this one, I went with white because I really wanted the flavor of the ginger to come out.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Then, you're going to whisk in some melted unsalted butter that's cooled or warmish?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I put it in the microwave and take it out.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yup, me too.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You have some good butter melted.

Jessie Sheehan:
I do. I love butter. I love butter in the microwave. And I have many tips. The big one peeps, just in case you're interested in, is pull the butter when there's still chunks of butter, but most of it's melted. So, then you can whisk in those chunks and then you've melted and cooled your butter at the same time.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, it's like chocolate in a way.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Like tempering chocolate.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, yes, exactly. Same thing. Then, you're going to peel and grate some ginger and whisk that in. And then, also ground ginger, which is just... So, you just getting ginger from every place you can.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, I mean this is in the ginger chapter, and I really did want the ginger to be quite pronounced. Fresh ginger and ground ginger is two different flavors to me. They don't actually, serve the same purpose in this dessert or in cooking in general. Your fresh ginger is peppery and it's vibrant and it's juicy and it's got this whole kick to it. I don't find that kick in ground ginger. It's more a perfume to me.

So, I really wanted to bring those in... It's almost like one is at the front of when you're tasting and one is at the back. So, I wanted to bring both of those elements in.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I've never heard it explained that way, but that's so true. Is there a brand of ground ginger that you like?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I, at the moment, I'm using the... I think it's called the Buffalo Ginger from Burlap & Barrel.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I have that one. It's so good.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I did a big spice redo and I went with all really nice brands. So, it's like that's something everyone should do. Every couple of years is like, yeah, because so many beautiful spices out there right now.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, it's true.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And I really change your cooking.

Jessie Sheehan:
It's true. And then, unsweetened, shredded coconut. Is there a brand of that that you like?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, I think the one I usually use is actually Bob's Red Mill.

Jessie Sheehan:
I use that one too.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, I mean I put a bit of coconut in there. There's coconut on two places in this dessert. It's on the top, which I know you're getting to, but in the actual batter, you don't taste it too much. It melts in, but it's just like a hint of texture because mochi cakes or glutenous rice cakes are very smooth.

So, I wanted just the idea of texture, but not enough to go, "Oh, there is chunks of coconut in here." And also, the fragrance of it too. It's like, I approach this cake. I approach savory food. You let layering in lots of those. So, it's not just coconut in the butter, but there's also the coconut on top, and there's also the coconut milk.

So, you're being emphatic about that coconut, but not in a way that it's like, "This is not a coconut cake." When you eat it, you're not thinking, "This is a coconut cake." But it's definitely there.

Jessie Sheehan:

Yeah. I think, now I know the answer to this in light of the texture thing because... But I was going to ask, could you use sweetened coconut?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You could, but it would be too sweet for me.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You could. But I find sweetened coconut so sweet.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I would reduce my sugar because I don't like things personally that sweet.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I might do the sweetened, but don't tell heady peeps. And then, there's some fine sea salt. So, I had two questions. First of all, is there a brand that you love? And also, do you ever use Kosher? Like you use Kosher and savory? But...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I do use Kosher. I use like the salt that ongoing thing in a recipe developer's life because certain publications require the use of certain types of salt. And it's specified in the recipe because there's very different saltiness of salts.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, diamond crystal and Morton's are very different...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Very different.

Jessie Sheehan:
Folks do not... You should mostly right, stick to Diamond Crystal because Morton is just...

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I do. Very salty.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I use Diamond Crystal in most of my recipe development, but I say recipe development because I'm referring to editorial.

Jessie Sheehan:
Right.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
For my books, I always use sea salt because that's my personal preference. I love sea salt. I love the braininess of it. It is what I used in Australia. And Australia is like... I was talking about this recently, it's like a bougie food scene because in Australia we just use Morton Sea Salt. Morton which is expensive here and used as more of a finisher. I basically developed my first few books basically all on Morton.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's fascinating.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And I still will use Morton a lot, even in my recipes. I will crush it up. It's just old habits and I like the flavor of it. I love... It tastes so much of the sea. And I'm sure other sea salt brands also taste of the sea, but that's just the one I'm used to.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we're going to whisk all of these ingredients together for 2 minutes until completely smooth.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
It's so smooth.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yup, yup.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I mean, until there's no lumps. I mean, you don't want lumps in this. And sometimes, I've never had that problem, but I have seen other people put it through a sieve. I feel like that's a fussy move. So, I would rather just whisk.

Jessie Sheehan:
Whisk. I was going to ask you, I would never do this. And you probably would never do this either. But could someone do this with a hand mixer if they wanted or a stand mixer?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I would. But why would you get it out?

Jessie Sheehan:
Why would you? I know, I know.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
You can absolutely. But it doesn't actually require, I'm one of those people... I will even dare to whisk egg whites to stiff if I can do it with just a hand whisk.

Jessie Sheehan:
I feel the same way about whipped cream. I would much rather just be really tired and sad because I used my hand to make the whipped cream than pull out my stomach.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Why are we so lazy, Jessie? Yeah. I mean, there is no hard work in the whipping for this cake. So, I don't see any need or requirement to get out any equipment.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. So, now we're going to pour the butter into our prepared pan, and we're going to bake for 30 minutes. Then, we're going to rotate the dish, top with a little bit more coconut and bake for another 25 to 30 until the edges are starting to brown, yes, and the top springs back when gently pressed. So, I have two questions. First of all, do you rotate savory food too that you bake? Or do you just rotate when you're baking like a cake?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Only if I have to.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I mean, you probably know, simple is the best for me. And if I don't have to rotate for a certain reason, I will not rotate. Even if it's... I do it like sheet pan recipes. People always ask me, "Do I have to rotate?" It's like, "You can, if you want to." Also, every oven is different. There are some ovens which the heat is just not distributed properly. And if you've got one of those ovens, you should absolutely rotate. But mine one is okay. It's hotter around the edges.

I feel like for my oven in particular, I would almost have to move the food that's in the middle of the pan to the edges, and the edges into the middle. That's more important than actually rotating. But yeah, I mean, I think for this one, it's like, you have to open the oven anyway to put the coconut on the top, which then toast in that final 25 to 30 minutes of cooking. So, yeah, may as well just swing it around.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you don't use a cake tester, you just use your finger, is it because of the texture of a mochi cake? You wouldn't really put a toothpick in it.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's going to look like it's uncooked. That's the thing. If you're going to put a bamboo skewer in or a toothpick in there, it's going to probably have a little some bits hanging onto it. And it's almost like it's going to trick you into thinking that it's not cooked. It's going to cook in the time that's specified, but also the edges will start to... In the book, you can see they're golden around the edges, and it will start to look like it's pulling away from the edges a little bit.

But it still will be wobbly, and it's almost impossible to cut. As you take it out of the oven, it's still going to be very wobbly. Sometimes, I can't wait. And so, there's actually nothing better than a hot emoji.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
It's basically like, you do your best to cut into it. And then, you just basically have to yank it off. I did that when I made it recently. And my son was home with me and he's like, "This is so good." Because it's basically like, you're pulling. It's almost a cheese pull, but it's a mochi pull. Because when it's hot, it's not going to come apart. I mean, I do say in the book, if you need to cut it straight away, maybe have a bit of oil woodwork or cornstarch. I mean, you don't probably want to eat cornstarch, but it helps the knife go through a very, very soft mochi.

Jessie Sheehan:
I have to say I loved that tip of lightly dusting your knife with cornstarch. I thought that was a great tip.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. I mean, it's actually a good tip for working with glutenous rice flour products. The glutenous rice balls, the Lo Mai Chi that's in my... Into age with love. It's basically like, you cook this glutenous rice flour and it's basically, you can't get it off your fingers. And the way you basically work into the ball is you put cornstarch on your hands, on your countertop, and that's just... It's the only way to work with it.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to take it out of the oven. We're going to let it rest for about 30 minutes, run a knife around the perimeter of the cake to loosen it, and cut into slices. Do you invert it onto the counter or do you cut it in the pan?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I cut it in the pan.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
It's probably not a good thing to do, right? Because you mark your pan.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. But yes, I mean, that can be problematic. But if you have parchment on the bottom, you may not. And also, there's something homey and comforting and nice about a cake that's still in its pan.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, because one of those things actually with many of these glutenous rice cakes and Nian Gao, they're in the pan. So, we take slices out straight out of the pan. So, I will keep it in the pan for most of the time, and then I will just lift it out and move it into a container if I'm going to put it in the fridge.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And if you want to freeze it, I do mention that it's very good cake to freeze. The easiest way of doing it is actually pre-slicing it. So, pre-slicing and wrapping it in parchment because then the great thing about that is you just take out one slice at a time, and stick it in the microwave or in your fry pan or in your toaster. And you can have mochi cake whenever you want.

Jessie Sheehan:
I want... But I want it now. I did want to just talk about three more desserts from "Tenderheart" that I love so much, just briefly. But in the same ginger chapter, ginger and date sticky rye pudding.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. I mean, first of all, I love that you're making it a muffin tin. Maybe, everybody does that, but I just thought that was just so simple and nice and easy. There's a puree of dates with ginger. Why the flax? There's flax, milk, olive oil.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah, it's vegan. And so, it's free.

Jessie Sheehan:
So, the flax takes a place of an egg?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Love it.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
So it's a flax egg, brings everything together. And sticky date like, with people ask me, what's your favorite dessert? And I'll often say Pavlova, which is the sweetest dessert ever. But I just... I don't know. It's like the Australian thing, I feel like it's my dessert. But sticky date is another one I just adore.

And the thing about Australian dessert is they're very British because we are a colony. But it is like so much of it is just tied to things that I would try and felt very different to what I was eating at home. And rye has that lovely earthiness to it. Yeah, there's a few great desserts in the ginger chapter.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh, love it. Love it. And then, also, I love this. I have a recipe like this. I can't believe I'm like, "Had he made a recipe that I would make?" But the spiced pumpkin baked donuts.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, my God, yes.

Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, it's so good. And don't one of your sons adore them or something?

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Nobody. My daughter likes... But we could just call it pumpkin. But it's squash, winter squash, whatever you call them in America. I still don't get it. But we call everything pumpkin in Australia. So, my two boys don't like pumpkin or squash. And so, I made this and they were like, "What is in this?" And my youngest, Huck said, "Oh, these are the best donuts I've ever had." He's very like that. And my middle son was what? Who really does not like any vegetables that are sweet, he does not like sweet vegetables. He said, "Oh, you can make anything taste good."

But yeah, they are so delicious. They are actually on the sweeter spectrum of my desserts in this book. But the squash just gives it that beautiful tender moistness because I talked about... This is the antithesis of a dry donut. Because often I think baked donuts can get dry.

Jessie Sheehan:
Agree.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
And I think that the squash is doing double duty. It's adding flavor, it's adding color, but it's also adding that moistness, which is very satisfying.

Jessie Sheehan:
I also love that the sugar that you dip the donuts in is like a pumpkin pie, spice sugar, which I just think is brilliant. I've done a cinnamon sugar, but I love the idea of using pumpkin pie spices in there.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
That sounds delicious.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yeah. I mean, I love the use of spice itself, if I can get that in there somehow.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then, finally, I adore this one too. I could make this one too. The lazy spiced butternut tiramisu.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my gosh. First of all, I love any recipe with the word tight... What will I see. I love any recipe with the word lazy in the title. And then, it's just basically whipping together mascarpone squash and layering it with lady fingers.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Yes, yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, Hetty, your next book, dessert book.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
I think it's going to be... Someone asked me this recently, actually during my book tour, someone said, "Are you ever going to do a baking book?" And I said, "There's probably less than zero chance I'll ever do a baking book." But it's really fun. I mean, I think with this book, I loved working with the parameters of the vegetables. It was so fun to go, "This is a vegetable book. But there's going to be desserts in here," which are desserts that I like to eat.

Tiramisu is something, my kids love tiramisu. So, it's like bringing those kind of classic desserts, but can reinventing them with vegetables. But using vegetables in a way that's very intentional. It's not like gimmicky. The other dessert is the sweet potato bunt, which is a marbled bunt with black sesame.

So, I realized during this talk that you and I are actually quite similar bakers because there's lazy factor comes in this kind of people talk about baking like, it's all about ratios and it's got to be really exact. And, I mean, I obviously, use scales for everything because I'm a recipe developer, but this bunt is basically one butter, and then I don't even... And then, you split the butter in two. I don't even measure, but you probably should.

I just eyeball it, split it into. I add sweet potato mash to one side. I add black sesame paste to the other side or black tahini, and then you just basically marble it into a bunt tin. And it comes out half black... It looks like a tiger, black and orange. It looks so impressive because all bunts are impressive. But it's like the easiest dessert you are ever going to make. So, yeah, it was really, really fun actually working on the dessert...

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
... the cakes and the desserts for this book.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Hetty. And I just want to say that you are y Cherry pie.

Hett Lui McKinnon:
Oh, you're my cherry pie. And what a pleasure this has been, so fun. Thanks, Jessie.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter and California Prunes for their support. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on your favorite podcast platform, and tell your baking buddies about us. Be sure to check out our other episodes and get tips and tricks for making the most popular baked goods around from birthday cake, to biscuits, to blondies. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is London Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.