Susan Bae Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and the author of four baking books. Each Saturday I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today I'm chatting with Chef Susan Bae, the pastry chef of Moon Rabbit, the popular Vietnamese restaurant in Washington, D.C. Susan is known for her unique desserts that marry savory and sweet, like green curry sponge cake with avocado sorbet and fish sauce caramel. Her creativity makes her such an exciting chef to watch. In this episode, Susan and I talk about using fresh produce and herbs in desserts, why it's important to her to push people to try new ingredients, and creating dishes that mimic nature. We also go through the recipe for her chocolate mayonnaise cake. I adore using mayo in chocolate cake as it lends a richness and flavor and an extra moist texture. And, Susan and I chat about how we think it would also be great in a red velvet cake. Susan was a delight to speak to and I know you'll love her story. Stay tuned for our chat. If you'd like to follow along, you can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com.
Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best kind of prunes out there. I am a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. You probably already know that prunes are good for your gut. You might even know that prunes are also good for your bone health, but what you really need to know is that prunes are absolutely delicious in both sweet and savory dishes. But don't just take it from me. Here's what some of the country's top culinary experts have to say. Chef Bronwyn Wyatt of Bayou St. Cake says, "Prunes have an earthy, winy richness that pairs beautifully with the tart fresh flavor of berries." Chef Kat Turner from Highly Likely in L.A. says, "They are an incredibly versatile ingredient that strike a great balance between sweet and savory. They're incredibly sensual." Ana Castro from Akamaya in New Orleans says, "Prunes have a sultriness to them. They're very rich and like velvet. I like to use prune puree in my baked goods to give them great flavor and also to replace some of the sugar, eggs or fat in the recipe. It's super easy to whip up. Just blend prunes and water together and voila." For recipe ideas and more, be sure to check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
I have big news for you. My new cookbook, “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes” will be available Tuesday, September 24th. This is my first savory baking book and I'm so excited to share it with all of you. It features a hundred easy-peasy baking recipes for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and of course snacking, from sage butter scones to smash burger hand pies and tomato za'atar galette. You'll also find six of my essential savory baking hacks, including how to make my magic melted butter pie dough and the quickest and easiest caramelized onions. I just announced my cookbook tour and tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com. The launch party will take place in Manhattan on Tuesday, September 24th. Then I'm in San Francisco on Tuesday, October 8th, Chicago on Tuesday, October 15th, and Boston on Wednesday, October 23rd, and I can't wait to see you. Thank you to Kerrygold and King Arthur Flower for supporting my tour. You can also click the link in the show notes of this episode to pre-order the book now or pick up a copy at your favorite local bookstore starting September 24th. I hope you love “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes” as much as I loved writing it.
Let's check in with today's guest. Susan. So excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk chocolate mayonnaise cake with ganache frosting with you and so much more.
Susan Bae:
Thanks so much for having me, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you were born and raised in a Korean home in L.A. and I wondered if you could share a little bit about the baking and cooking that was happening or not happening in your home when you were growing up.
Susan Bae:
Yes. So I grew up in Los Angeles. My parents were immigrants. They worked so much. They worked all the time. We didn't really have too many family dinners. And I think because they worked so much, I was left to create meals on my own with my sister because they weren't home often. My mom was not the best cook either, but there was a traditional comfort foods of Korea that really stuck with me. But everything else I had to teach myself. I think that's where my passion for baking took off.
Jessie Sheehan:
When it was just you cooking for you and your sister, were you making American dishes? Were you making Korean dishes and were you always baking for the two of you?
Susan Bae:
It was mostly American dishes because my parents would always just cook Korean dishes. Yeah. And the baking part, that came later down in maybe high school era. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us the story of what you baked for your dad that made you realize that you loved baking?
Susan Bae:
I made my father, well, a replica of a McDonald's apple pie. He loves that pie. I attempted it. I had never baked before and it wasn't very good, but he enjoyed it so much and he was so loving about it. He was very proud of me and I think that kickstarted my love for baking because I just loved seeing how happy he was.
Jessie Sheehan:
Did you try and fry it? I won't lie. I haven't had one in a long time, although this is actually making me hungry for one.
Susan Bae:
It's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
But I feel like it's the apple hand pie. Rectangular shaped, but fried.
Susan Bae:
Correct. Yeah. So I made the pie crust. It was obviously not structurally sound. Probably could have binded the ingredients a little better, but yes, I threw it in the fryer. It just exploded and splooged. Very mangled. But got on the plate and he was like, "Wow." I was like, "Thanks, dad."
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw. I also think because fried is my favorite food, I think even a splooge-y, mangled, fried apple pie sounds delicious to me.
Susan Bae:
It was good, but it was definitely not McDonald's.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know that when you were, maybe it was high school when you were growing up, you got really into food blogs.
Susan Bae:
I did.
Jessie Sheehan:
And can you tell us a little bit about those blogs, which ones you were reading? And that inspired your love of sweets maybe along with that splooge-y, mangled apple pie.
Susan Bae:
There were two blogs that I followed pretty religiously. One was Smitten Kitchen and the second one was Joy the Baker. And I think a lot of my inspiration came from her as well, because she had moved to New Orleans and she was just doing her thing and it was just so inspirational and I loved testing out all of the recipes, so it was great.
Jessie Sheehan:
So after college, you went to culinary school. And at one point, I think it was post-school, you were working four different part-time jobs so that you could learn from all different sorts of restaurant experiences. Was that your idea? You were like, "Oh, I want a vast variety of experiences to teach myself?" Because four sounds like a lot.
Susan Bae:
Yeah, so it was a mix of both, I would say. I was just starting out. I was living alone for a little bit in L.A. and I was like, "Okay, I need money." But at the same time, I still wanted to learn and absorb, so I just dabbled in different restaurants, different bakeries all at once, so I could just absorb all of that information. It was tough, but I have no regrets. It was the best times of my life.
Jessie Sheehan:
And were all of those four jobs, were they all in pastry?
Susan Bae:
Pastry. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that. So you've described your dessert style as unique and out of the box, and I assume part of that style was honed during that experience of dipping your toes into so many different types of pastry. But can you unpack what's unique and out of the box about what you do?
Susan Bae:
I think I learned to really love the element of savory, so I try to incorporate that along with fresh produce that are local. Growing up in California, we had the farmer's markets, so that was very ingrained in my style of work. So I would say fresh produce, fresh herbs, and also an element of savory.
Jessie Sheehan:
You've said that you're not afraid, obviously, to experiment with flavors and dessert, and you've said that it's important for you to challenge people with your desserts, like putting durian in a dessert and pushing people to try ingredients that are important to other cultures.
Susan Bae:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I feel like Kevin Tien, your partner at Moon Rabbit is also, that's the ethos maybe of the restaurant. Is that fair to say?
Susan Bae:
He is, yeah. This is our heritage. This is our culture. These are foods we eat on any typical day. But in American cuisine, not very common. And most people, again, let's use durian as the example. People are afraid of the fruit because there is a scent. It's very pungent. It smells like gasoline almost at first whiff, but behind that smell is a very delicious, sweet vanilla-y taste that I think people, they get deterred by the smell initially. But this food is important to us, and so it's about taking our culture, our heritage, and saying, "Hey, it's not all that scary. It's actually quite delicious." How can we make this... I hate using this word. Approachable. I hate using this word, but if you try it in this way, maybe you'll change your mind or maybe you'd be open to it. So we're really big on that.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Peeps, have you heard the news? Cherry Bombe's first ever Jubilee Wine Country is happening in Napa Valley on October 26th and 27th. It'll be a weekend filled with great wine winemakers, beautiful food, seasonal produce, conversation, connection, and California. Passes are now available. To learn more and snag a pass, visit cherrybombe.com.
I think it's interesting because you talk about savory elements, and I have just written this new book and it's all about savory baking, but what we're talking about here is different than savory baking, different than putting cheese or meat into baked goods. It's really about a plated dessert that is actually taking from the savory kitchen and adding that to this beautiful restaurant dessert.
Susan Bae:
Right, right. I think an example would be our new mushroom dessert on the menu basically highlighting and showcasing mushrooms. So we take a lot of wild foraged mushrooms, blend up in there. Again, big in our culture, in our cuisine, and allowing people to try that in a different way, not just in stock or in a sauce.
Jessie Sheehan:
And there are a lot of, at least at Moon Rabbit, a lot of Vietnamese ingredients in your desserts, including things like fish sauce and green curry and soursop. And I love the idea of really, you're pushing the envelope of at least what people's expectations are.
Susan Bae:
We try. People at work joke around and say, "Oh, she goes ham sandwich," which means she just goes crazy. But this is how I express my creativity, and when it all comes together in the end, it's very fulfilling for me and it's also really fulfilling to be able to share that with a new experience with guests as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I've also read that there's a part of the natural world that you grew up in when you were foraging and hiking in California that also influences this more savory side of your baking. How do those two things interact? The savory side and the natural world?
Susan Bae:
I just love nature. I wish there was a better way to put it, but I feel very passionate about the earth and the world around us. And yes, being in California, hiking, foraging, being immersed in that, the natural environment is very inspiring. When I feel inspired, I create. And so it really shows in the type of work that I put out onto a plate. It's going to look like maybe a log, a piece of driftwood, some moss will adorn it with herbs and flowers. But yeah, nature is very much a part of my pastry style.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also know that both you and Kevin at Moon Rabbit have said that you want diners to taste traditional at Vietnamese food even if it doesn't look traditional.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that may be part of what you were just describing? The way we might see moss or a log, but then the flavors are going to be what is familiar to you guys and maybe not familiar to the diners?
Susan Bae:
Yes. Absolutely. Kevin is, I think his style is very much more, we want it to look similar and taste similar. For me, it's like people eat with their eyes first. And when I'm creating a dish and it looks like nature, it's not just a random thing. Usually it's the geography of Vietnam or a certain area of Vietnam and then taking those flavors that are relevant to that area and incorporating it. And it comes full circle, I would say. So geographically it looks like an area and then all the flavors from that area come into the dish as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was that a big learning curve since you grew up in a Korean home for you to learn? Was Kevin like your teacher in terms of learning about the different flavors or was it just you on your own experimenting with the cuisine?
Susan Bae:
So definitely in the beginning for sure. I always still gain inspiration from all the other chefs at Moon Rabbit, but my very first job was actually at a Southeast Asian restaurant, so that's where my knowledge of most of the ingredients came from. So I was familiarized with a lot of the ingredients. I worked with them all the time. Me being equipped with that knowledge and then paired with the further Vietnamese knowledge and culture that Kevin and his upbringing, it just created this wonderful force and we work together.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know that you and Kevin were friends on social media, and that was how you both knew about each other's work, but do you think it was your time at that restaurant that also inspired Kevin to ask you to partner with him? He knew you'd already had exposure to the cuisine, or do you think he just loves you and it wouldn't have mattered?
Susan Bae:
You know what? I don't know if he knew that I was working with Southeast Asian flavors in the very beginning. At the time when we did become friends, I was working at a very Californian restaurant, so it's amazing. I think it was a mix of... I don't know. How can I say this?
Jessie Sheehan:
Some kind of kismet.
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Susan Bae:
Some kind of kismet. And again, we did each other for a very long time. He's seen my other work, and I think it was just so much trust, right? There was a lot of trust. He was just like, "Yeah, I want you on my team." And we just created this beautiful bond.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing. Okay. So now we're going to talk about your chocolate mayonnaise cake with ganache frosting, which is literally just saying those words makes me so happy, which I believe is unique and out of the box in its own way, though obviously different than the kinds of desserts you're right now creating at Moon Rabbit. So first, can you tell us a little bit about chocolate mayonnaise cakes and how you discovered them?
Susan Bae:
Again, I think the very first time I discovered was probably on a blog. I can't remember which one, but definitely on a blog first, and then I was just scrolling through the recipe box. It was chocolate mayonnaise cake, and I was like, "This is weird. This is weird. Why is there mayonnaise in a cake?" But now I think I understand. Okay, eggs, oil. Makes a lot of sense. But yeah, that is how I first discovered chocolate mayonnaise cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that I might have to go back and do a search of both Deb and Joy's sites to see if one of them has a-
Susan Bae:
I'm sure one of them does.
Jessie Sheehan:
It feels like something that each of them could have.
Susan Bae:
Right. Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love them so much. I discovered them, my grandmother had cut a recipe for one out of a newspaper in the 1960s or 70s and stuck it in her recipe box.
Susan Bae:
Yeah, it is a very-
Jessie Sheehan:
And I discovered it.
Susan Bae:
Very retro dessert, as they would say.
Jessie Sheehan:
It is. I wonder if they were created during a time where maybe it was hard to get eggs or more expensive to get eggs, and so it was easier to buy this product that had them already included.
Susan Bae:
I think you might be right. I did read somewhere that it started up in the 40s when food was scarce, but then it really gained trajectory around the 60s, and that's when it got really big.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And I once tried to put mayonnaise into a vanilla based cake, and I found that I could taste the mayonnaise almost. Have you ever tried to make it with a different flavored cake? I feel like it should work, and I might need to retry.
Susan Bae:
I have not tried, but I wonder if the chocolate really masks it a bit and tones it down because I would assume a vanilla cake with mayonnaise would taste very eggy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I also-
Susan Bae:
And oily.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I also remember almost, you know how mayonnaise is a teeny bit tangy?
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I remember tasting that in the vanilla cake, not in a good way, whereas I could imagine that if there was an undertone of tang in the chocolate cake, it would sort of almost work.
Susan Bae:
Meld together. Right. What about a red velvet? I wonder if that would work.
Jessie Sheehan:
Honey. Genius.
Susan Bae:
Right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Susan Bae:
Because there is still a tang, but you still get the cocoa.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that idea.
Susan Bae:
I think that might work.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And also, I don't know if this is standard, but I know my own red velvet cake recipe calls for oil, so it's already sort of there.
Susan Bae:
Oh, Jessie, please create a recipe for red velvet mayonnaise cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. I'm going to. I'm going to. I wish that I could stop the interview and take a note, but I have to remember at the end of this to write it down. So this particular cake, often people will use, I think originally when we're talking about the 40s and the 60s, people were literally taking out the fat in the cake, melted butter, or oil completely and the eggs and putting mayo in. But you don't do that. You add the mayo, but you still add a little bit of fat and some of the eggs. Can you talk about why?
Susan Bae:
I just like the richness with the mayonnaise. It's already moist, but I want it more moist. So we just add that little extra bit of oil. I like a rich chocolate cake. I don't know. But when I crave it, that's what I want. I did try it with less oil. I didn't omit it completely, but I just needed a little bit more.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have a chocolate mayonnaise cake in my last book, like a snacking cake, and I didn't add extra oil, but I did add an extra egg. I just wanted that unctuousness.
Susan Bae:
Right, right.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think it gives it a little lift.
Susan Bae:
The spring.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I know you mostly offer this cake for wholesale? Is that right? It's not usually plated up in the restaurant?
Susan Bae:
No, so not in the restaurant. We've partnered with Any Day Now here in Washington D.C. at Navy Yard, and they're an all-day diner, and they were like, "We need some cakes." I was like, "What are you guys looking for?" They said, "Old school retro cakes." And chocolate mayonnaise was one of them. And I actually came up with this recipe specifically for them. But in the restaurant, sometimes when we have events and stuff, we'll create it as a snack for ourselves, but we don't usually serve it in the restaurant.
Jessie Sheehan:
First thing we're going to do is we're going to heat our oven to 350 degrees and we're going to grease a sheet pan. So my first question is, is there a particular size? Is it a half sheet pan? Do we only need one? I know we're going to be cutting out the cake from this flat cake.
Susan Bae:
So definitely a half sheet pan. I do cut it out with, it depends on what size you want. I usually don't go beyond an eight.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you get three eights out of one half sheet pan?
Susan Bae:
Yes, you can.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, great.
Susan Bae:
So corner, corner, middle. So you could get two halves out of a middle and stick them together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, brilliant.
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Brilliant. Susan was just doing a lot of pantomiming, which I wish you guys could all see, but oh, that makes sense.
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the third layer, which will be the middle layer, is actually two halves.
Susan Bae:
Stuck together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. And do you have a half mold or... Oh, once you flip it out-
Susan Bae:
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're able to do half-and-half.
Susan Bae:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
So smart. Oh my god, that's so smart. I probably am the kind of person who would've gotten an entirely new sheet pan.
Susan Bae:
Oh no. Such a waste.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Susan Bae:
We want all those cake crumbs.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's great. And are we greasing the pan with cooking spray and lining with parchment?
Susan Bae:
Yes. So cooking spray, I like to use Vegalene, found in most industrial kitchens, and then just parchment paper and that's it. And then we're going to pour the base.
Jessie Sheehan:
The home bakers can't find Vegalene, right? I've never seen that in the grocery store.
Susan Bae:
No.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it different than a Pam?
Susan Bae:
I'm sure the greasing is different. Pam usually has that buttery flavor, I feel. Vegalene, there's not really much of that, but Pam works great.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think I know the answer to this, but why do you like the sheet pans for this cake as opposed to three eight inch round cake pans?
Susan Bae:
Maybe it's because I work in a professional kitchen. We usually like to save the crumbs or whatever and use it for a different product like cake cups, but you can definitely go in a pan. Not a big deal. I just like how flat it bakes on a sheet pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you do that with all cakes?
Susan Bae:
We do, yeah. Unless it's a sponge cake. Then we would go in a full round pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to cut the cake as we just discussed, with these cake molds after it's baked. Is there a brand? And I think, I know the size is usually eight inch, but is there a brand and is that a restaurant supply product? Because I feel like we all need to have cake molds.
Susan Bae:
Amazon has it. I like to use Ateco, but Amazon has it. Restaurant supply stores carry it. I think most places sell it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I didn't realize Ateco did it, but I guess that makes sense because I have small biscuit cutters and cookie cutters of Ateco and it makes sense that they just bring that product up until maybe a 10 inch or a 12 inch. Should I picture just the ring or is there a handle on top of the ring?
Susan Bae:
No handle. Just the ring itself. Again, there are different brands. I just find that the Ateco brand is a lot sturdier.
Jessie Sheehan:
And should I picture a sharp end on both the bottom and the top or is the top rimmed?
Susan Bae:
It's not rimmed, but it's not sharp either.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Susan Bae:
So it's just edged enough so it could cut into the cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you can tell which side to cut with or you can cut on both sides.
Susan Bae:
Both sides.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh. I am literally going to buy those.
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Oh, and I'm also developing a red velvet cake.
Susan Bae:
Red velvet cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice. Yep.
Susan Bae:
Don't forget.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Susan Bae:
I'm waiting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Those two things.
Susan Bae:
I'm waiting for your recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Those two things. So we've prepared our sheet pan. We have our cake molds ready. Do you call them cake molds?
Susan Bae:
Ring molds.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ring molds.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have our ring molds ready. So first we're going to combine buttermilk, cold brew, vanilla all together. Couple of questions. First of all, do you have a favorite vanilla brand?
Susan Bae:
I like to use vanilla paste.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, nice. Do you have a favorite paste?
Susan Bae:
Nielsen Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Neilsen Massey. Yep. That's a really yummy one. Do you make the cold brew yourself or do you buy it?
Susan Bae:
So we use Grady's cold brew.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Susan Bae:
It's just very concentrated cold brew, so you get a lot of that rich chicory... How else can you describe coffee?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I know.
Susan Bae:
Bold coffee flavor.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And I think that's a brilliant tip. Because there are so many chocolate cake recipes that call for coffee, because we all know a tiny bit of that coffee flavor will pop our chocolate. Won't actually taste like coffee. But the idea of using cold brew is so smart, Susan, because it's so concentrated and a lot of people have it. And you can now buy it like that, Grady's or other products in the grocery store.
Susan Bae:
Exactly. Mm-hmm. I think most recipes, I think... Sometimes I've seen espresso powder. I personally don't love the taste of espresso powder. I feel it doesn't taste as fresh. I don't know if you agree or not.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, no. It's funny because when I'm developing recipes, I want everything to be so easy and simple and I want everybody to have it in their pantry, and not that everybody has espresso powder, but I like to use it. Even though we don't like that word. I like to use it because it just means that you could buy it once and then you could be making the cake for years to come and you would always have it.
Susan Bae:
Right. Oh, you're so right. You're so right. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Just because some people don't want to go, even though I am going to develop a recipe with cold brew, my fear would be maybe not everyone wants to go to the supermarket to buy it.
Susan Bae:
Right. Just to have in the pantry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Even with coffee, I feel like a lot of people don't make coffee every day. Or I make coffee every day, but I don't have a cup hanging out that I can then bake with. So the espresso powder is just my idea of you have your boiling water, you have the powder, you can add it to the cake easy peasy.
Susan Bae:
And it's ready for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Susan Bae:
That makes a lot of sense.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So we're combining our buttermilk, our cold brew, our vanilla. Are we whisking them together?
Susan Bae:
Yes. Whisk it together. Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to measure this maybe in a bowl or in a big measuring cup?
Susan Bae:
Measuring cup or bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
And why the buttermilk?
Susan Bae:
Just again, I like that extra tang. And it adds to moistness as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tenderness.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And so we'll set our wet ingredients aside. Next we're going to whisk together all-purpose flour. Is there a brand you guys use?
Susan Bae:
King Arthur. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to whisk together King Arthur Flour, baking soda and baking powder. Why are you using both here?
Susan Bae:
Extra oomph.
Jessie Sheehan:
Cocoa powder. Do you like Dutch processed cocoa powder? And do you have a brand? Or do you like natural cocoa powder?
Susan Bae:
So we prefer Valrhona, but cacao berries are next. So Dutch. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that Valrhona cocoa powder.
Susan Bae:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love the color.
Susan Bae:
There's nothing that compares quite like it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nothing. I love that color.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So delicious. And then we're going to add fine sea salt. And I wondered first if there's a brand, and also, do you ever use kosher in your baking or are you a fine sea salt gal?
Susan Bae:
You could actually use kosher or fine sea salt. We use Diamond Crystal.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm. We're going to combine all of this together. Whisking it, I presume, in a big metal bowl. Is that what I should picture?
Susan Bae:
Sure. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because that's restaurant supply style. Then we're going to add sugar to this mix. We're whisking this in a bowl. We're not in a stand mixer.
Susan Bae:
No. You can go in a stand mixer. But I just like to use a big bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. Of course. And we're going to add sugar to this mixture. Is it granulated or is it brown?
Susan Bae:
Granulated.
Jessie Sheehan:
And why not brown? I feel like sometimes people like to add brown to chocolate cake for the molasses-y moistness.
Susan Bae:
So the cold brew that we use already has a very dark taste to it. It's personal preference, I guess. I prefer just letting the coffee shine through where it can.
Jessie Sheehan:
Even a choice like that is important to recognize because there is a difference between what brown sugar is going to taste like and what white sugar is going to taste like.
Susan Bae:
Oh, yeah. For sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the taste of white sugar is sometimes what the dessert needs-
Susan Bae:
We want. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or that people want. So we're going to add sugar and eggs into the bowl of an electric mixer with our whisk attachment or our paddle?
Susan Bae:
I would recommend whisk to start. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And we're going to whisk until the eggs are lightly pale. And is there a particular speed and are we looking for ribbons?
Susan Bae:
I would say medium.
Jessie Sheehan:
Medium speed?
Susan Bae:
Yeah. Medium.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that thing where you lift the whisk and you see the mixture ribbon into the bowl?
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is that what we're looking for?
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
You're using probably a Hobart or something big.
Susan Bae:
We are using a Hobart. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. So yours is probably much faster than ours, but that can take five minutes.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Susan Bae:
Five to seven. Maybe even longer depending.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I'm assuming if you wanted you could try to do that by hand. Or is ribbons, does ribbons take forever by hand?
Susan Bae:
Oh, gosh. It just reminds me of a story in culinary school when I tried to whisk eggs and I just literally sprained my wrist trying to whisk eggs.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Honey.
Susan Bae:
It'll just take a very long time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Good to know.
Susan Bae:
A lot of elbow grease.
Jessie Sheehan:
Good to know. Elbow grease and sprained wrists. Then we're going to whisk in vegetable oil and I'll also, could we use melted butter if we wanted to?
Susan Bae:
You can sub some of it. I wouldn't recommend all of it because again, I feel vegetable oil adds a different level of moistness that butter just can't. It can't. It can't go there.
Jessie Sheehan:
I couldn't agree more. I also think that cakes with oil can be left on the counter for longer.
Susan Bae:
Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
They stay fresh and moist and don't dry out. So I'm a big oil and cake person. Next we're going to whisk in the dry ingredients in three additions, alternating with our buttermilk and cold brew vanilla mixture. And I thought it was interesting. Sometimes in my chocolate cake recipes I actually add the Dutch process cocoa powder to the wet ingredients just to bloom that chocolate. I usually do that because I'm using hot water and espresso powder. Since yours is not hot, it's room temp ingredients, is that why you're choosing to put the Dutch process in with the dry ingredients?
Susan Bae:
Yeah. I haven't had a real reason to bloom for this recipe. Definitely in a red velvet I've bloomed it, but it seems to work just fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great.
Susan Bae:
To just throw it in the bowl here.
Jessie Sheehan:
And last, we're going to mix in our mayonnaise. Is there a brand that you like?
Susan Bae:
Duke’s.
Jessie Sheehan:
Duke’s. And we're going to do that on low speed just until it's incorporated into the batter. And I wondered why we're doing it last.
Susan Bae:
Just worked out that way.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Susan Bae:
Yeah. I know some people like to go in the beginning to coat the flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Susan Bae:
I haven't tried that. This is just how we've experimented the recipe and it works out fine. So we're like, why change a good thing?
Jessie Sheehan:
And next we're going to bake for 20 to 30 minutes. Do you rotate the sheet pan while it's baking?
Susan Bae:
I would highly recommend to rotate if you're just baking at home. We are very spoiled and we have a combi oven that just works wonders and the fan goes around all the way. But definitely if you're baking at home, I would recommend to rotate halfway.
Jessie Sheehan:
How will we know when the cake is done? Are there any indicators we're looking for? Do you touch with your finger or do you use a toothpick?
Susan Bae:
So I do all of that, but I also check for the edges of the sheet pan because what happens is once the cake is cooked all the way through, it'll start to separate from the edges of the sheet pan. And that's one of the clear indicators for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
And when you do the toothpick, are you a moist crumb person or do you want it to see it clean?
Susan Bae:
Moist crumb.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. I feel like so frequently people bake too long and so I always encourage people to pull when you see a crumb.
Susan Bae:
Right. Just the tiniest little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. Exactly. And then we're going to cool the cake before we're going to cut it with our ring molds.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
My new term. And I wondered, do we cool it in the pan? Do we flip it out to cool it? What's your technique?
Susan Bae:
I would just cool it in the pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then run a butter knife or something around the edge?
Susan Bae:
Right, right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you flip it out on a cooling rack and then flip it back up so you're looking at the top?
Susan Bae:
Yes. To take off the parchment as well on the bottom.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Susan Bae:
Once it's cooled though, I just go on a flat surface is fine, but cooling in the pan first. Once that's all cool, flip it over onto a flat surface and then peel off the parchment and then you cut with your rings.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you're cutting the bottom.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
The bottom is facing you.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And do you have to prepare the ring molds in any way? Do they stick? Do you need to spray them?
Susan Bae:
I guess it really depends on what you're cutting. For this cake, it works fine. I have noticed that it does stick sometimes. So maybe a light spray of that Pam.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's not a bad idea.
Susan Bae:
Yeah, it's not a bad idea.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. I can't wait to buy my ring molds. I'm so excited. I don't know why I've been sleeping on ring molds my whole life.
Susan Bae:
It's great for when you build entremets and mousses too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us what entremets are.
Susan Bae:
It's like a mousse or something with filling on the inside, like a mousse cake where you put the acetate around it too. That's really helpful to have a ring mold on hand.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the acetate is that almost plastic paper, for lack of a better word, that you would stick inside the mold so that you could fill the mold higher than the edge of the mold.
Susan Bae:
Right, right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
I do not think I will be buying acetate, but I love that I can describe it well and nod.
Susan Bae:
You're a pro.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to make the ganache frosting. So we're going to bring cream and corn syrup and sugar and salt to a light simmer. And I had a couple of questions. I also use corn syrup when I... But can you remind us why we're putting a teeny bit of corn syrup in?
Susan Bae:
There's a pliability to the ganache and it just makes it so glossy and I think that's why I just love adding corn syrup.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, me too.
Susan Bae:
Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think you can also add Lyle's Golden Syrup.
Susan Bae:
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I feel like in some professional kitchens are people adding glucose or?
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Am I right that can be subbed out?
Susan Bae:
Yeah, so that is the original. It comes with glucose, but for this we use corn syrup because it works just as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice.
Susan Bae:
Glucose can get expensive too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to bring cream, corn syrup, sugar, I'm assuming it's granulated, and salt. Again, we could use kosher, we could use fine, to a light simmer. So are we looking for just bubbles around the edges?
Susan Bae:
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Just so that we dissolve our sugar. We're whisking occasionally. Now we're going to put unsweetened chocolate, which you refer to as 100% chocolate, which I love that expression for something that has absolutely no sugar in it also. I find that helpful because now I understand that the higher number of chocolate is going to be closer to 100% and therefore darker. Teaching at every moment or learning at every moment. And is there a brand of unsweetened or 100% chocolate?
Susan Bae:
Again, I'm a Valrhona girl, but we also use Cho chocolate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, nice.
Susan Bae:
Yeah, and Cho is really great.
Jessie Sheehan:
And so we're going to put the unsweetened chocolate and some semi-sweet chocolate, which is about 66%. Is that Valrhona too?
Susan Bae:
Yes. Or Cho.
Jessie Sheehan:
In a bowl. I'm assuming it's a metal bowl like we used earlier. And we're going to pour the hot cream mixture over the chocolates and allow the hot cream to melt the chocolate for about how long before we get in there and whisk?
Susan Bae:
I would say a few minutes, maybe three or two just so that we know that if you whisk too early there's going to be chunks of chocolate. The warm cream is not going to melt the chocolate all the way through. We actually want this to be very melted down and emulsified.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm just thinking about this for my own self making ganache. Is there anything you're looking for in the bowl? You can't really tell if... It'll look melty on top, let's say, but you can't really tell.
Susan Bae:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there anything you guys are looking for? You just know if you wait about three minutes, you're good to go?
Susan Bae:
I guess, yeah, we usually at least give it about three minutes or we stick something into the mixture and move it around to make sure we're not feeling large chunks. And then we'll go in and finish it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great. So we're going to whisk to incorporate until smooth. Then we're going to add, I assume room temperature, unsalted butter.
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And why butter?
Susan Bae:
Who doesn't love butter? No, we need it to set up a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Susan Bae:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to add some vanilla and then we're going to use an immersion blender to blend the ganache until smooth, shiny, homogenized. So a couple of questions. Are we using the immersion blender when the ganache is still warm?
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do we all need immersion blenders? Are you using them all the time in the pastry kitchen?
Susan Bae:
I am a big, big advocate for having an immersion blender. It just really mixes things up very nicely. You can emulsify things beautifully and it's handheld and small and compact. It's one of my favorite tools, I would say.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there a brand that you like?
Susan Bae:
Just use a KitchenAid one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
If you were just making a regular ganache and you were not turning this into a frosting, would you still use the immersion blender or is the immersion blender adding some kind of air into it that we're going to want for the frosting?
Susan Bae:
I just like it because it's almost a comforting security to know that everything is blended and smooth. It's great for ganache. I would have to say it's my favorite because again, elbow grease is required in a lot of pastry and baking. And sometimes an immersion blender, having that on hand is just buzz buzz and you're done. And it really just gets all of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to store our ganache in a container. Should I just picture a plastic restaurant supply container situation?
Susan Bae:
Yeah. Yeah. Whatever container of choice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Store it in a container with plastic on top or some kind of cover and allow it to cool overnight on the counter. I thought that was interesting. So not in the refrigerator.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm. You can actually store it in the refrigerator, but when you are about to use it, you really just want it to come to room temp. And sometimes we leave it in the fridge. It takes a very long time to thaw down and you won't be able to pipe it as beautifully or work with it as easily if it was ice cold.
Jessie Sheehan:
I like the idea of leaving it on the counter. It's just so much easier. And then it keeps the consistency that you want. You don't have to bring it back to that consistency.
Susan Bae:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you need to do anything to it after it's waited overnight? Blend it again or It's good to go.
Susan Bae:
That's it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ooh, I love that.
Susan Bae:
You're good to go.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And then would you ever frost the cake right away as soon as the ganache is done or do you like to let it... Well, I guess you have to let it sit because you have to let it set.
Susan Bae:
Yes. I guess it depends. If you wanted to pour it over something to glaze it, it would work just fine. But I like to pipe my ganaches so it really needs to set.
Jessie Sheehan:
So will you spread it with an offset and also pipe? What should we picture? When you're ready to frost the cake, what's your technique?
Susan Bae:
So we spread it on the cake first and then we'll do the finishing decorating touches by piping it. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice. I wanted to talk about a couple of other additional recipes. Can you tell us about your green curry sponge cake?
Susan Bae:
The dessert is called just simply curry. And we take all of the aromatics that normally come in green curry minus the onions and the garlic, and we infuse an oil, we make a sponge cake out of that. The cake tastes like curry, but it doesn't have the overly savory notes, just the herbaceous spicy notes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you make an infused oil that you use as one of the ingredients-
Susan Bae:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
In the sponge cake. Oh my gosh, brilliant. I love that. I feel like you could do that in a bunch of other flavors for sponge cake by infusing flavor into oil.
Susan Bae:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is that a vegetable oil?
Susan Bae:
It's grape seed oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
Grapeseed.
Susan Bae:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow. Why grape seed?
Susan Bae:
It seems to pick up the aromatics better than just plain canola. I'm not sure why. And it's also another neutral oil. Yeah. But I'm sure canola would work fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you have the sponge cake. And then do you have an avocado sorbet and a fish sauce caramel?
Susan Bae:
Yes. So it comes with a fish sauce caramel, and then an avocado sorbet. And on top we foam a soursop yogurt mousse to help round out the dessert so you get a little bit more of that fatty element that you would get in a curry.
Jessie Sheehan:
What about your seaweed dessert, which is like a pandan panna cotta set with agar? Describe that one.
Susan Bae:
So that was inspired by just seaweed in general. And again, part of our culture and heritage, but more importantly it's an untapped ingredient that's not really found normally in pastry or sweet things. And I really wanted to highlight the versatility of that because we don't set our panna cotta with gelatin. We use agar agar, which is extracted from seaweed. So it's a pandan panna cotta. It's a confited wakame boiled down in sugar syrup. And then we do a chocolate streusel and then we add on sea beans, which is actually a succulent that tastes like seaweed, and also sea grapes from Vietnam. Hit it with coconut lime foam and then we put a coconut lime granita on top, so it's very refreshing, but it's umami and sweet, but you get the earthiness from the chocolate. It just melts right together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sounds incredible. And then finally, we talked about durian a little bit, but can you tell us about the white chocolate mousse situation that you make with the durian?
Susan Bae:
Yeah. I realized that I really wanted to temper the stink from the durian, and the best way I was able to do that was to mix it with white chocolate. So it mellows it out and just brings out more of the floral, vanilla-y notes from the fruit. We pair that with some acid. My acid of choice is passion fruit. And to give it a herbaceous note to it, we pair it with dill, which you wouldn't think would work, but it works beautifully.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Susan. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Susan Bae:
Aw. You're my cherry pie, Jessie. Thanks for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course. That's it for today's show. Thank you to California Prunes for supporting this episode. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your baking pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.