Victoria James Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. This is the third episode of our special Power Miniseries, and today's guest certainly knows how to use her power. It's Victoria James, the trailblazing sommelier, author, and advocate for working moms. Where do we even begin with Victoria? She overcame a complicated upbringing to become one of the youngest sommeliers in the country, a journey she wrote about in her memoir, “Wine Girl: The Obstacles, Humiliations and Triumphs of America's Youngest Sommelier.” In 2020, she helped expose the sexual harassment happening at the highest level of the wine industry and was featured in a New York Times investigative story on that subject by reporter Julia Moskin.
Victoria has risen through the ranks of Gracious Hospitality, parent company of the celebrated COTE restaurants. Today, she is their Executive Director of Beverage and Partnerships. Victoria is the mother of two. Her little one is only three months old. Through her Instagram account, she has helped normalize seeing pregnant women and nursing moms working in restaurants, beverage, and hospitality. "People should get used to seeing us pump in all the places we weren't able to years ago," she wrote in a post last month. “Mamas, all the spaces are yours.” Last week, Cherry Bombe hosted our first-ever Power Awards, and Victoria received the Trailblazer Award given by Cherry Bombe and the legendary champagne house, Veuve Clicquot. Victoria is such an important person in our industry, and I can't wait for you to learn more about her. Stay tuned for our chat.
Speaking of Veuve, our Power Miniseries is presented by Veuve Clicquot, the iconic champagne house led to greatness by one of the most powerful women in the history of Champagne, Madame Clicquot. Bold, brilliant, and ahead of her time, Madame Clicquot took over her late husband's champagne house at just 27 years old. In an era when women couldn't have bank accounts or run businesses, she defied expectations and led with vision and determination. Madame Clicquot established many firsts in the world of champagne: the first vintage champagne, the first riddling table, and the first blended rosé champagne. She took the world of champagne into the future and never looked back. Today, Veuve Clicquot honors her with the Maison's newest vintage cuvée, La Grande Dame 2018, a champagne that embodies everything Madame Clicquot stood for: vision, drive, and audacity. This 25th vintage is made with 90% Pinot Noir, her favorite grape, and delivers a balanced finesse and brightness that echoes the sun-kissed harvest from which it came. Staying true to the house's motto, only one quality, the finest. Elegant and precise, La Grande Dame 2018 has delicate notes of citrus and floral and a salinity that speaks to its deep roots and craftsmanship. As we raise a glass to powerful women everywhere, let's remember the original Grande Dame who poured her boldness into every bottle and changed the world of champagne forever. Learn more about La Grande Dame 2018 at veuveclicquot.com.
Now, let's check in with today's guest. Victoria James, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Victoria James:
Thank you for having me back.
Kerry Diamond:
So thrilled and so nice to see you again. I got to see you last night, and now I get to see you, what, not even 24 hours later.
Victoria James:
We need more of this.
Kerry Diamond:
We do need more of this. You just had a baby.
Victoria James:
Baby Margot.
Kerry Diamond:
Baby Margot. 12 weeks old.
Victoria James:
12 weeks.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Victoria James:
Fresh.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you take much of a maternity leave?
Victoria James:
I have a very robust maternity leave, but being a restaurateur, you're never... You're always in the mix. It's my other baby, so it's hard.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. You have an expanded title now, which we'll talk about. So, you've got even more responsibility since we spoke to you last time, but let's talk about your award. We were so proud to give you our first-ever Trailblazer Award last night in conjunction with our friends at Veuve Clicquot. I was curious. What does being a trailblazer mean to you? When you hear that someone's a trailblazer, what comes to mind?
Victoria James:
Blazing trails always.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good one.
Victoria James:
No, it was such an honor to receive. Thank you. When I was a young sommelier growing up in this world of wine 15 years ago, it's crazy to think that 15 years ago, I was 21, the youngest sommelier in the country. Certainly not the case anymore. I always was very scared to enter rooms, right? I was this young chick. I didn't look like a lot of people in the wine world. You have this fear, but you swallow it anyway, and you go forward, and so to me, I think that's what a trailblazer is. It's being scared but doing it anyway and hopefully so that other people don't have to be scared in the future.
Kerry Diamond:
I know we talked about you when we gave the award out last night when I introduced you. I feel like we barely scratched the surface on how much of a trailblazer you are. Knowing you to the extent that I do, I know you don't walk around and think about yourself that way, but really when you stop and think about it, the things you've done, the firsts you've done, the work you've done on behalf of women in this industry is really, really remarkable. It's been 15 years since you became a sommelier. It has been a very busy 15 years, so I don't know if you've stopped to pat yourself on the back at all, but I hope you have.
Victoria James:
That's sweet. I mean, it's been so busy. Last month, I had lunch with one of our restaurant partners and Simon at Le Bernardin. Amazing, super lucky. Chef Eric's amazing. The sommelier at the end, she pulled me aside and just said, "Thank you for all the work you've done for us in our industry." Probably because I was six weeks postpartum, I just started crying, and I cried on the taxi ride home. I guess you don't sometimes stop to think about it, but it means a lot that all the work is doing something for others.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. We should mention Simon, because I know he's going to come up a lot in this conversation. Simon Kim, your business partner, he's the founder of Gracious Hospitality, which is the parent company of all the restaurants you work with. You're nodding. Am I getting that correct?
Victoria James:
Yes. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
I met him for the first time at the S.Pellegrino brunch-
Victoria James:
That was the first time.
Kerry Diamond:
With Stanley Tucci. That was a very fun brunch. It was so nice to meet Simon. He seems really lovely, and Gracious seems to be the right word to name his hospitality company.
Victoria James:
He's good energy. He's amazing. When I met him 10 years ago and he had this dream concept of COTE, someone asked him, "What will you name your hospitality company?" Because it doesn't matter at first, right? But once you start to become more well-known, people think of your hospitality group. He said, "I'm going to call it Gracious Hospitality. They said, "It's not really catchy. What about something else?" He goes, "No. Gracious," and he stuck to it because he really believes hospitality should be gracious. It's so funny. A few years ago, I saw this person again, and she was introducing Simon and me to a table of guests. She goes, "Gracious Hospitality, isn't it an amazing name?" I was like, "Yeah, it always was." Simon is the embodiment of graciousness, and he's a really good person and a great boss.
Kerry Diamond:
What is his background? Was he a chef, a restaurateur?
Victoria James:
Simon Kim, he started busing tables at his mom's restaurant in Tribeca, and went to hospitality school, actually in Vegas. So, it's a return, and he had some kitchen stints, but always been a front-of-house restaurateur. I think chef-driven concepts are amazing, but one of the things that makes Gracious so different is it really is Simon's brain, and he is front-of-house driven. So, just like when you go to a Danny Meyer restaurant, you get Danny Meyer's brain. When you come to Gracious restaurants, you get Simon's front-of-house brain, which is pretty cool, and it's always hospitality-driven.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, he seems like he's been a great partner to you, and he's been a big supporter of your projects, of which you've had many.
Victoria James:
Yes. I mean, I definitely have been a thorn in his side many a times. I'm very grateful to him that he lets me do a lot of crazy things. Sometimes I'll bring up a side project or an idea to him, and you can just tell that it's... But he is so supportive, and he's so good, and he always has everyone's best interest in mind. So, I think as long as it's best for the restaurants, everybody wins.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the restaurants since we're on the subject. Walk us through the world of Gracious Hospitality.
Victoria James:
So, Gracious Hospitality was founded about 10 years ago by Simon Kim. He's the CEO and founder. We opened COTE Korean Steakhouse in New York City in 2017, our flagship. The partners then were myself, Simon, Chef David Shim, and Wesley Sohn, our director of hospitality.
Kerry Diamond:
So, you were a partner right out of the gate?
Victoria James:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Impressive.
Victoria James:
Yes, all three of us. So, it's just me and the boys. I was like their kid sister that served them wine, and I was in charge of all the liquid. We were super fortunate we got a Michelin star right away and a lot of early support. We opened up in 2021 COTE in Miami, also got a lot of support there and a Michelin star. Then last year, we opened up COTE in Singapore and also COQODAQ, our Korean fried chicken concept with the largest champagne list in America. Later this year, we're opening up COTE in the Venetian in Vegas, and next year, we're doing a behemoth of a project at the 550 Madison space, the old Sony building, which will be four concepts in one skyscraper.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. The new issue of Cherry Bombe's print magazine is out now, and it's our first ever Power issue. Inside, you'll find our power list of 100 women doing amazing things in the food world, plus recipes from folks like Meredith Hayden and Hailee Catalano, and features on Gloria Steinem, Chef Mashama Bailey, culinary creative Sophia Roe, and others. We proudly print our magazine at the family-owned Meridian Printing in Rhode Island. If you've never seen our magazine before, it's bold, beautiful, and thick, and is printed on gorgeous paper. You can subscribe at cherrybombe.com, or pick up an issue at your favorite bookstore or culinary shop, places like Soho News in Manhattan, Lucy's Snackbar in Corpus Christi, Texas, and Omnivore Books on Food in San Francisco. Visit cherrybombe.com for the full list of stockists.
What makes you unique as a somm? You addressed this in the book, and you've addressed this in different interviews, but sometimes people might look at somms the way they look at doctors. It's like you want the doctor to be maybe a little older than you, to maybe have gone through some things themselves, so they understand what phase of life you're going through.
Victoria James:
For sure. I think Simon saw in me a lot of himself. We were both underdogs, right? He comes from a Korean American background. I was a young woman, and he's super young as well. We both were never taken seriously, but we wanted to be. So, when I was growing up in this industry and a 21-year-old sommelier, luckily, it's not as high stakes as being a doctor. You're just serving wine, but I was able to bring a different perspective. So, not when I was 21 but a little bit later when I was pregnant with my first daughter, Simone, I remember working the floor as a sommelier during the pandemic, eight, nine months pregnant, knocking over wine glasses with my big belly. I was so self-conscious of what all the men would say when I would walk over to tables. They'd have these client meetings, and this big, huge pregnant woman comes over trying to serve them wine, so self-conscious.
Then this one day, I was serving this table, and this woman at the table gave me a weird look. The end of the meal, she pulled me aside and said, "Thank you so much. It's so amazing seeing you working, doing what you love, being pregnant. It's so empowering." It's so funny. The whole time, I was so worried about what the men would think. I didn't stop to think what the women would think and what it would mean to them. That's, I think, the perspective I offer that's different. I have been very fortunate as a young female sommelier to be able to connect with a lot of young women and a lot of people who love and admire women and their perspective. So, it's a double-edged sword, but I think it's served me well.
Kerry Diamond:
You have done a lot to try to normalize being pregnant and working in food, drink hospitality. Is that something you set out to do, or is that something that just happened along the way?
Victoria James:
Yes, someone asked me that the other day because I've been posting all these photos on Instagram and videos.
Kerry Diamond:
If you're not following Victoria on Instagram and you are a woman in this industry, you really, really should.
Victoria James:
These photos of me pumping-
Kerry Diamond:
in a bikini,
Victoria James:
... in a bikini in the wine cellar at Michelin Star restaurants in the boardroom, at Cherry Bombe Jubilee, at galas. Well, first, I just did it because, I don't know, you're alone usually in a room for 20 to 30 minutes, and what else are you going to do? But in a way, being a woman in this industry and postpartum, especially when you're pumping, you're isolated. It's extremely isolating. You have to leave these rooms sometimes to go into another room by yourself, and in that quiet, you want connection. I knew that if I was feeling that way, I'm sure so many other mothers were too. So, I started just sharing these funny things, and I think it really resonated with a lot of women because they felt the same.
I think it's important that we see women pumping all the time, and all of the male partners at work have gotten used to me. One of the other partners too, Amy Zhou, who's amazing, who's also postpartum and pumping, we're in these meetings, and we're just pumping during it. I think it's great to normalize it, because it's just a normal, normal thing, and we're just feeding babies out here.
Kerry Diamond:
You brought up nursing, but really you've done two things. You posted a lot of you pregnant also, and I think I have seen people have weird reactions to servers who are pregnant, to restaurant employees who are pregnant. You know this. I used to own restaurants, and back when I had my places and we had a pregnant server, people were very uncomfortable with that, even though the server wanted to keep working. I think that's the first thing you've done. You've really tried to normalize the experience of being pregnant and being in these jobs. It's one thing to be a server. It's another thing to be a pregnant somm, because people don't understand how can you be a sommelier and be working in wine, and be pregnant, and be tasting, and doing all the things you're supposed to do? Do you mind explaining how you do your job when you're pregnant, because I think it'll enlighten a lot of folks?
Victoria James:
For sure. Our head sommelier at COQODAQ, Erica, is amazing, and she had a similar experience, because she was regnant as a sommelier before she started with us. She gave me a call. We had mutual connections in the industry, and she was like, "How do I do it? People are so uncomfortable." I told her that story of the woman coming up to me and thanking me. I think that times are changing luckily, but being a sommelier, you just smell the wine. You taste it. You can spit it out. You just have to own it. I told her, "There's a power in being pregnant. You're carrying human life. It's pretty badass."
So, I think that I just tried to channel mostly going table side, putting my big belly forward, hands on my hips, going right up to these tables and saying, "What are you going to drink?" Because you have this big mama energy like, "How is someone going to say no to you?" So in fact, actually, it really was super useful in sales when you can use it as a tool and when you can own the power, but I get that it can be hard for a lot of women. I think the biggest thing we can do is just normalize it.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you think it helped that you had a reputation to stand on at that point?
Victoria James:
For sure. I think that's also why it's so important that if you do have a platform, and you have gone to this level to try and use it to do those sorts of things, because when I was talking last night about the whole New York Times thing and all the sommeliers, I couldn't have done that 15 years ago. No one would've taken me seriously, and they would've said, "Oh, she's just complaining about abuse or harassment, but she's not even a very good sommelier. I've never even heard of her. Who is she?" Sort of thing. So, it helps that a decade later, you have all these accolades under your belt, and so people are like, "Oh, well, now I'm paying attention." So if you have that power wherever you are, you need to use it.
Kerry Diamond:
You're right. You shouldn't have to have this amazing reputation to be able to do your job and be pregnant at the same time. It should just be.
Victoria James:
It should just be. It should just be.
Kerry Diamond:
Then you brought up the nursing part. It is amazing what you have been doing for nursing moms. I mean, restaurants are not easy places to really just be a human sometimes, let alone a nursing mother. I mean, there aren't places to change. There are very few offices. There's just not a lot of extra space off the floor generally.
Victoria James:
Also, just unless you've breastfed, you might not know that it is exhausting. I mean, I think it's like you burn 20 calories per ounce, so you're just constantly burning 500 to 800 extra calories a day. You're constantly dehydrated. You're worn down. You're physically producing food for another human being. It's already exhausting, and then you have to carry around a bunch of things. It's not fun. It's not enjoyable. I mean, nursing can be with the babies on you, but pumping's a machine sucking on your nipples. What's fun about that? It's just exhausting. So, why are we making it more hard? Just give us mamas a break, please.
Kerry Diamond:
Exactly. I love what you wrote on your last post about, "Mamas, take up all the space that you need to."
Victoria James:
Yeah, all the spaces should be for moms. I mean, come on. You have to love your mom. Moms, they're the best.
Kerry Diamond:
Mom's the Bombe, as we like to say. Another thing I'd like to talk about and an area where you have certainly been a trailblazer, is fighting sexual harassment in this industry. Folks might be familiar with the article that Julia Moskin wrote that you participated in that brought down a lot of folks at the Court of Master Sommeliers, because a lot of sexual harassment was going on, but there was actually a bigger project behind the scenes. Can you explain to people how that article came about?
Victoria James:
Sure. So in March 2020, my book “Wine Girl” came out, and it detailed a lot of abuse and harassment I had gone through. Maybe because it was the pandemic, a lot of people were reading, especially hospitality workers that were maybe out of jobs. I started getting hundreds, I mean, carry hundreds of messages from women all around the world detailing, "Oh my gosh, I went through something similar too. Here's my story of harassment, abuse, misogyny, rape," terrible stories. There started to be a through line, and there were a lot of names, people that kept coming up. So, I started collecting these stories with two other amazing female sommeliers, Jane and Liz, who were also in the articles.
We just started this document. I remember it was still called Operation Girl Power. I don't even know how I came up with that name. Then we started talking. Then this woman said, "Hey, call this woman." Then this woman said, "Call this woman and this woman," and this whisper network started, and we realized that there was crazy institutionalized abuse, harassment, all of these crazy things happening within the Court of Master Sommeliers, I mean, happening all over the wine world for sure. But specifically, it was just really part of this process. You had to sleep to get to the top to get a master sommelier pin or what have you. So, we took all these stories and all of these interviews that we did over the course of six months, and then handed it to Julia at the Times.
I was like, "Julia, I don't know if you can do anything with this. Obviously, you're amazing. You did the whole Mario Batali story and the Spotted Pig. I don't know if this is something. What do you think?" She was like, "What?"
Kerry Diamond:
Because it was so many years after Me Too.
Victoria James:
So many, and it was just... What we had collected, there were so many women. Last night at the awards when I was talking to Julia, she was like, "I thought the food world was bad. These men in wine were so entitled, and they're so just gross. It was just another level, this secret society, this old boys club that no one really knew about. All of this abuse was just rampant. It was horrible." So, the article came out, and I remember the day I was pre-opening at COTE Miami. I was in the middle of these interviews, and I just broke down. I mean, right before the article came out, Julia called me and she said, "Hey, I want to give you a heads-up, a warning about something in the article that might upset you." I was like, "Oh gosh, what could it be? I've already told the world everything."
She said, "One of the women, she also went through something similar, and she thought she had to do this thing with this guy, because he had told her this is what Victoria James had done." She said, "Well, I guess this is how you become the next Victoria James." I just... I'm sorry, I'm crying now. I just broke down. I was like, "I cannot believe that these terrible men had also used my name to try and learn other women, and I didn't do anything to help." It was just so awful. I'm so glad that those men are now... The whole Court of Master Sommelier is the board had to resign, and all of these... Not all of them, there's still some out there, but in general, most of them had to resign and were forced to lose their titles, and the culture has changed.
I mentioned this last night, but a year later, a reporter called me and asked me, "Did it work? Have you dismantled misogyny in the wine world? Is it over?" She was missing the point, right? Because I think that... First of all, the impetus is never on us as the women and sharing our stories, but it's not about what we took down and what we dismantle. It's about what we built and this beautiful sisterhood. I think that the more we come together as women, the more we share our stories and are there for one another, it's so powerful. We don't have to worry about breaking down things. We're just always building.
Kerry Diamond:
You said something though, Victoria. You said you felt like you hadn't helped, but you had written “Wine Girl” at that point. You revealed so much in that book about what you had been through. When I read that book even before the Julia story came out, I just thought it was remarkable because you had broken open a lot that was going on in this industry that people might not have even realized. So, I do think you helped with that book, and, I don't know, maybe didn't even realize how much you were helping.
Victoria James:
Yeah, for sure. I think that when I was early on in my career, I saw a lot of abuse not just with me, and I didn't think I could say anything. I didn't think anyone would care. I knew it was wrong. I always felt this guilt like, "I needed to share my story to help others too, because I knew that it was all around me."
Kerry Diamond:
The times have changed, and I think more people feel empowered to speak out, but there was a time when if you weren't at a certain level in your career that you had to stay quiet because no one would listen to you.
Victoria James:
I mean, even last night, one woman came up to me, and she went to the CIA years and years ago. She said, "It brought back these memories." She's like, "There was one woman per class in the CIA." She said, "I remember whenever you had to go to the walk-in freezer, you just had to bring a knife with you. It was just part of the culture." It's so crazy to think but-
Kerry Diamond:
Right, that you're paying to go to culinary school, and you need to bring a knife with you into the walk-in.
Victoria James:
Yeah, crazy. So, I think times have changed, but we just need to keep sharing our stories.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, it's interesting because our overall topic today is power. This is part of our Power Miniseries, and I think this is what using your power means, all these things that we're talking about. Speaking of the word power, you started an organization called Wine Empowered. Tell us about that.
Victoria James:
So, Wine Empowered is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. So, we offer tuition-free wine education to women and people of color in the hospitality industry. So, what the goal is here is we diversify the whole hospitality industry by empowering these people with this education. It started back in... 2018 is when we officially incorporated long before these conversations were a thing, because we were offering these fee wine classes at COTE, and the other two female sommelier founders and me, we realized that we thought a little bit of education, a free wine class would lead to better sales at the restaurant, would lead to better morale, et cetera. It did, but what was most impressive was that people walked away from these classes feeling empowered.
They took this education, and they went from bussers, dishwashers to servers to sommeliers to managers. We realized, "Wow, this is the key to making the whole hospitality and wine world more equitable and getting more people at the top and making it more dynamic from different walks of life." So, Wine Empowered was born. We're still very small but mighty, but please support. You can go on our website, wine-empowered.com.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell people the different ways they can participate or support.
Victoria James:
The biggest thing is following us on Instagram at Wine Empowered, staying attuned with... When we're doing our annual classes, we always need recommendations for great candidates who would be perfect for the program. We want to give this education to people who really, really take hold of it and do amazing things in our industry. Of course, you can always support. Donations are always welcome.
Kerry Diamond:
You've had a real financial impact on people's lives. You talked about someone who took the classes who was a dishwasher at the restaurant making about $50,000 a year, and today, they're a manager making 150,000. That's a big jump.
Victoria James:
Yeah. I mean, the program is essentially, it helps people build their careers. It's a career training program. The tuition-free wine classes, it's a skill you can learn that's niche and can really, really help advance your career. It has had great impact. We've seen people start as servers, for example, or bartenders, and now run programs for entire restaurant groups. So, it really does have quite the impact.
Kerry Diamond:
That's great. You were the country's youngest sommelier at one point. Was there any program like this when you were coming up in the industry?
Victoria James:
No, definitely not. Everything, you had to pay so much money for. I remember taking out loans, working extra, extra, extra, anything to try and make money and pay for these very expensive wine courses that you pay so much money for. Then you get in the room, and they don't even respect you. You're like, "Okay, come on." So, that's also the thing about Wine Empowered. Obviously, it's tuition-free, but it's also a safe space where people can really learn and grow.
Kerry Diamond:
People really need to read your book. I mean, when you talk about all this, you're not someone who came from money or privilege or any of those things. I mean, talk about trailblazing. You really had to figure out the education part for yourself, take all those steps without mentors.
Victoria James:
For sure. I mean, it's interesting. I definitely grew up with not a lot of money, which is how you end up working at a greasy spoon diner when you're 13 under the railroad tracks in New Jersey. But, it's an interesting dichotomy because my dad's mom was a cotton picker in Tennessee, and she was very of the earth. Then my mom's mom was a countess from Italy, and so she was very blue blood. So in the book, I say, "It's like this blue blood means blue collar." So, although I didn't have a lot of money, I always, as every young girl does, and you read princess books and things, and you think you're so special. I remember reading the “Little Princess” when I was young, and just thinking I was this Stephen Crane character, this flower in a mud puddle.
Maybe it's these high ambitions I had, like Simon does as well, but I always believed, and I'm not quite sure why, but that there was something better and I could build it for myself, which now that I have two young daughters, if you rewatch a lot of these princess movies, you realize how actually badass the princesses are. The other day, I watched “Thumbelina” with my daughter. First of all, the dude is totally boring. He gets frozen in an ice cube, but the entire time, “Thumbelina” is a badass and crushing it. I'm like, "Wow, all these princesses are so fucking cool."
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, I thought you were going to say the opposite, that they're not very empowering.
Victoria James:
If you look back, there's definitely some problematic things for sure. Like, Snow White's just laying there. Some dude kisses her and wakes her up. Not great, but some are pretty badass and really make it for themselves, and the dude is just usually a dud. So, I think we need to bring back more of that storytelling.
Kerry Diamond:
I would like to see some of those princess stories rewritten. Absolutely.
Victoria James:
For sure.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the idea of writing memoir come about?
Victoria James:
So, this is actually a good story. I always kept journals. Writing for me is really therapeutic. It's a way I make sense of things. I think it was David Sedaris. Someone said, "I don't know what I'd do if I don't have writing. I'd be a mess." I feel the same. Around the time I met Simon in 2015, I also met this literary agent. I had been writing stories for New York Magazine and just things here and there on wine. She said, "Do you have anything else?" I said, "Well, I'm writing on this book about being a young sommelier as a female, all these things I faced." She's like, "Listen, no one's going to buy that. Why don't you instead write a book on rosé? The rosé craze is huge." I go, "Okay, sure, that's a good idea." So, I actually did that.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, right. I forgot. That's your first book.
Victoria James:
“Drink Pink.” It was actually a great idea because it was during the rosé craze, and I told people to take Rosé seriously, et cetera, gave me a good introduction to the publishing world, which as you know, is complicated. Then Me Too hit, and that story that Julia wrote about the Spotted Pig came out, and my agent called me. This is not Andy, the one before-
Kerry Diamond:
I was going to ask.
Victoria James:
Andy McNicol's amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
We have a friend in common who's a brilliant literary agent.
Victoria James:
... and my current agent. She said, "Do you still have that book?" I said, "Yes." She said, "Okay, I think now people will buy it." I wrote the manuscript over the course of six months, a year, pieced together all these journal things, all these writings I had, and made it into a manuscript with her help. We were ready to send it out to publishers. I remember it was a Friday. She said, "Well, is there anyone that you have a connection to in the publishing world that maybe we should specially send it out to?" I said, "Well, there's this one guy who comes in the restaurant sometimes, and he's really nice. Sometimes I email him wine recommendations, and he's super sweet. I don't know if you know him. His name is Daniel Halpern."
She's like, "Okay, well, we'll send it to Daniel Halpern.” But he's a legend in the publishing world. He was Anthony Bourdain's editor, Padma Lakshmi, Patti Smith. The list goes on, Joyce Carol Oates. She said, "We'll, send it to him. Don't hold your breath. Usually, it takes a few months." This was a Friday. Monday morning, she calls me, and she says, "Daniel Halpern wants to preempt the book and take it off the market. He doesn't want to go to auction."
Kerry Diamond:
I just got goosebumps.
Victoria James:
I mean, I was beyond. I couldn't even speak, and it was meant to be. It was such a testament too to, I think, hospitality workers, because I had met him through the restaurant, and we had just built a relationship based off that. I don't think I would've trusted anyone else with my story but him, and he's just the absolute best. He was so gentle and sturdy throughout the whole process.
Kerry Diamond:
It sounds a little bit like Stephanie Danler's story with “Sweetbitter,” for those of you who've read that.
Victoria James:
Right. Didn't she meet someone at Bouvette when she was working there?
Kerry Diamond:
I can't remember whether it was Bouvette or one of Danny Meyer's places, but she, I think, met her future editor through the restaurant.
Victoria James:
I mean, oftentimes when we have people that we're hiring or bringing onto the team, I always say like, "Think about it. What's in it for you?" I mean, you never know who's sitting in front of you. I think that if you always are putting yourself forward, everybody wins. I think that some of our even servers and people at the restaurant have seen some amazing success with people that they've just served.
Kerry Diamond:
So, putting all of that out into the world, everything that was in “Wine Girl,” how did that change things for you personally?
Victoria James:
It's one of those things. It was just like, "Bomb it. You just had to get out," and you definitely feel better afterwards for sure. I didn't expect it to have the impact it did. I thought it might be therapeutic. I thought it could help and resonate with some people. That's why I wrote it, but I didn't expect it would have such a huge impact on the wine world, and I think that's been the most rewarding thing.
Kerry Diamond:
You love writing. You are launching a Substack soon.
Victoria James:
I am.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about it.
Victoria James:
I love Substack. I've been following along some favorites for quite some time. I know everyone has a Substack these days, but there was a gap to me. I wanted to read about restaurants and wine as a restaurateur or sommelier would. I want to introduce to the conversation more the way we talk about restaurants, and food, and people, and wine. So, we're launching that later this month, and I'm very excited.
Kerry Diamond:
What's it called?
Victoria James:
It's easy: Wine, Restaurants, People. It's just going to be about wine, restaurants, and people and behind the scenes. I think everyone's always curious about what goes on behind the scenes in restaurants, in the wine world. What do sommeliers actually drink and think about these bottles of wine they serve, and how does one go about ordering millions of dollars of beverage a year for a restaurant group, all of these cool things? I could talk to a journalist I guess, but wouldn't it be just better if I just wrote it myself? So, here we are.
Kerry Diamond:
How often do you expect to publish your Substack?
Victoria James:
Weekly.
Kerry Diamond:
Putting the pressure on you right now.
Victoria James:
Weekly. Weekly. I think the people that really pay to subscribe will get some pretty cool things, lots of cool insider info and tips, and lots of great wine recommendations and pairings and recipes and travel lists, and really behind the curtain.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, everybody, stay tuned for that. We also haven't really talked about the kids. Now, you've got two kids. Simone is so adorable. She really is one of the cutest kids I've ever seen.
Victoria James:
She's the best.
Kerry Diamond:
She has more style than most grown-ups.
Victoria James:
She's the best. Simone is... I don't even know how to describe it. Kids just give you so much focus and joy. One of the best things about Simone coming to this world besides her amazing light is now whenever I look at somebody, I'm like, "Oh, this is somebody's daughter. This is somebody's son, and I love her so, so much." Just seeing someone be like, "Oh, Kerry, you're someone's daughter. I love you so much because I know someone loves you so much." It helps too, especially in restaurants, when you're dealing with a general population. Let me just say, it's really hard to love people sometimes. So, it gives you perspective where you're like, "Okay, focus. This is somebody's daughter. Okay, I'm going to be nice." So, it helps. It's a magical thing.
Kerry Diamond:
There's a little bit more conversation now about postpartum. I know postpartum depression is something that has been written about and talked about for a long time, but I think there's a new level of conversation that's taking place. I don't know if you read Sarah Hoover's book, Motherload, about postpartum. Sophia Roe is talking about postpartum care, Caroline Chambers, who's got a great Substack, What To Cook When You Don't Feel Like Cooking. She spoke at Jubilee, and she said one of the things she would really love to see more of for moms is a bigger focus on postpartum care. How are you doing?
Victoria James:
Thank you. No, I mean, it's nice just to ask somebody like, "How are you doing?" I think to talk about it more as well, it's so hard. It's so hard, even if you have amazing support. This time with Margot, I have my partner who's amazing. I have my sister who lives nearby who's amazing, my brother-in-law, my partner's entire family. His in-laws moved half a block away, all these amazing people, and it's still so hard. Your body just gets wrecked, and your hormones are crazy, and just weird things that happen. This is so funny as a sommelier as well. I had pregnancy gingivitis. When I would brush my teeth, my gums would bleed. Isn't that insane and also disgusting? But then two weeks after I gave birth, it stopped. Crazy things happen to your body that you never would imagine, and so it's just difficult. So, I think that support, talking about it is just so helpful.
Kerry Diamond:
You've been really good about bringing Simone to things.
Victoria James:
Yes. I mean, Simone comes to everything, because I think it's so important. Actually, Clare Reichenbach, who runs the James Beard Foundation, she brings her daughter Sasha everywhere.
Kerry Diamond:
She does. Sasha's super cute.
Victoria James:
Super cute. I asked her about it one day, and she's just like, "Sometimes, child care falls through, et cetera. That happens with me as well, but I think it's so important for your daughter to see that your mom works." I was talking to Rita Jammet about this when I interviewed her for Cherry Bombe and-
Kerry Diamond:
Longtime restaurateur and champagne maker.
Victoria James:
... champagne maker and queen. She used to have one of the six best restaurants in New York, La Caravelle, along with Lutece and La Côte Basque. How did she do it? She had essentially triplets, one son and then twins back to back. She was like, "Listen, your kids just need to see you work." They're all amazing now. They're all incredible. Nick has Sweetgreen. Christophe and Patrick also are wildly successful and great humans and great family people. So, I think it's just important for your kids to see that work is part of your life, that you're not doing it, of course, to provide for the family, but also because it's a part of your identity and who you are, and it's important for you to prioritize that as well as parenting.
Kerry Diamond:
Rita's been a great mentor to you.
Victoria James:
She's the absolute best, and she is truly the fairy godmother to so many in this industry, especially women. She was, at the beginning of my career, so helpful. Again, it was so isolating and hard for me, and she's always been so supportive. I remember I gave her an early copy of “Wine Girl.” I just wanted to see what she would think like, "Was it too much?" She was so supportive and so sweet. So, she's the best.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about this summer. You have some fun things going on this summer. You all are going to be at the U.S. Open.
Victoria James:
So last year, COQODAQ, we had an amazing run at the U.S. Open. We had a stall there where we served amazing chicken nuggets topped with caviar, Petrossian Caviar, which is actually a deal, because you're getting a tin of caviar for $100. I know everyone was like, "Oh my gosh, the most expensive chicken nugget." It is a deal for caviar, actually, but we'll be back with those beautiful orange boxes. COQODAQ is taking over the U.S. Open again in an amazing way. So if you're at the U.S. Open this year, look for our COQODAQ pop-up.
Kerry Diamond:
The U.S. Open has really stepped it up food and drink-wise.
Victoria James:
Yeah, they're crushing it. It's amazing. I've always loved the energy and vibe of the U.S. Open, so I'm glad that we now have amazing representation in food and beverage.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you a tennis fan?
Victoria James:
Recently. I used to just go to the U.S. Open because I just loved... There's something really intimate about the stadium. I mean, it's so wild. It's dead quiet, and everyone takes it so seriously, and I've gotten into it more. My partner always jokes that I'm into sports in a very posh way. I like to go, and someone nice maybe will take me. I don't really understand what's happening, but I love the energy and vibe.
Kerry Diamond:
You sound like me. My first trip to the U.S. Open was for what turned out to be Serena Williams' last game.
Victoria James:
Wow.
Kerry Diamond:
Kerrygold had extra tickets, and they said, "Would you like to use them?" I was like, "Absolutely."
Victoria James:
I mean, it's so inspiring what these athletes do and what they put themselves through. So, I might not know what's even going... I don't even know the rules half the time, but I'm just like, "This is so inspirational."
Kerry Diamond:
Hugely so. Then The Venetian, so back and forth to Vegas a lot.
Victoria James:
Just starting these trips. Last year was my first year in Vegas ever. I was like, "Whoa, this city is intense."
Kerry Diamond:
You know I'm a big Vegas fan.
Victoria James:
Well, so you told me that, and I didn't get it at first, because I'm not... I like the boutique hotels and the nonna making you pasta. So, Vegas was never really my thing, but this last trip I took a couple of weeks ago, I was like, "I get what Kerry's talking about," because here's the thing that's amazing about Vegas. As a hospitality worker, one in four people, their job is in hospitality. It is truly the best hospitality city in America. When I was doing all these interviews with candidates, people would come with so much pride and dignity, because you're able to make huge six-figure salaries as a server, as a busser, as a runner, have an amazing house, send your kids to great schools, the quality of life, the dignity and pride in the hospitality workers. Even if it's not your city, it's definitely your people. So, I love Vegas. So, we're opening up COTE in The Venetian in Las Vegas later this year, so hopefully that will be packed all the time.
Kerry Diamond:
The Venetian has a lot of fun food and beverage stuff that they're working on.
Victoria James:
Yes. They just opened up their food court.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, did it open?
Victoria James:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
I saw it when I was there. I saw the posters for it.
Victoria James:
Amazing. I mean, Dead and Company has something there. Scarr's Pizza, which I love, which is great.
Kerry Diamond:
Ivan Ramen, right?
Victoria James:
Ivan Ramen, Turkey and the Wolf, that amazing focaccia sandwich place. I can never pronounce, All'Antico Vinaio, I think.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you get to see Dita Von Teese while you were there?
Victoria James:
No, but I love her. Did you?
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know if her... Yeah, I love her. She came on the podcast, and she was a great interview.
Victoria James:
She did. Oh my gosh.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know if she's still in residence there, but if she is, definitely go see her.
Victoria James:
I really want you too, because I watched Gia's film, “The Last Showgirl.” I know Gia was also on the show, and I love her.
Kerry Diamond:
Gia Coppola.
Victoria James:
She also has an amazing Vegas list.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sure.
Victoria James:
After watching her movie, I was like, "Wow, the showgirl culture and the last renaissance of that, she captured so well." Next time, I do have to see Dita, because she's definitely bringing it back in a big way.
Kerry Diamond:
That was a beautiful movie. What should people be drinking this summer, or what are people drinking with the chicken and the caviar?
Victoria James:
Yes, champagne. So, everyone, come to COQODAQ.
Kerry Diamond:
That was a leading question. I know you love champagne.
Victoria James:
Everyone, come to COQODAQ and drink champagne. It's just the best excuse to drink champagne. Also, you have no excuse not to drink champagne. First of all, it's the most amazing pairing with fried chicken and caviar. We have under 100 selections. So literally, you can get amazing selections for under 100 bucks, champagne. We have the largest champagne list in America so-
Kerry Diamond:
No, I didn't know that.
Victoria James:
Oh yeah, we go big. So, I wanted to make this program where it was like, "You can't say no." We have affordable. We literally have everything. It's like you walk into a library like an Enotec. Crazy things. If you're a wild collector, if you're a weirdo like me, there's something for everybody. So, you need to drink champagne at COQODAQ this summer.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you still on the floor?
Victoria James:
I try to be not as much anymore. With two kids and four restaurants, it's hard.
Kerry Diamond:
You have a new title, right? You've added partnerships to your title.
Victoria James:
I've taken on some partnerships too, which is great. It just naturally came about because wine is so fun. So, I think people are naturally attracted to my beverage side of the company, because it's liquid. We've just done so many fun things together. So, it's been such a joy to work and bring in so many new fun partners from fashion and beauty and the literary world and media and continue. So if you want to do a fun partnership with our restaurants, let us know.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a whole new world.
Victoria James:
Whole new world.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. We'll ask you one last question because we've almost run out of time. If you could have a dream person come to the restaurant and set them up with chicken, caviar, champagne, who would you love to serve?
Victoria James:
Well, I served my dream person last year. It happened. My whole career, I was waiting, waiting for this person to come in. I mean, I thought it was going to happen once when I was a sommelier at Marea. It didn't. It was another president and first lady. Then finally, finally 14 years into my sommelier career, I was like, "I need to serve wine to Michelle Obama." Finally, she came in to COTE with Barack for their anniversary. It was so amazing. I cannot tell you how nervous I was. I mean, I was like, "This doesn't actually happen. Your dream doesn't really come true."
She was so lovely, and Barack was so amazing. I served her a glass of Favia, Cabernet Franc from California, female producer. My hands were shaking the whole time. At the end, me and Simon and Wesley were like, "Can we take a picture?" So, we get a picture with Barack, and Michelle's just sitting at the table. I was like, "Michelle, I want a photo with you. I mean, come on." She was like, "Oh yeah, we'll get the photo," so sweet. So, I did serve my dream person.
Kerry Diamond:
Congratulations on manifesting that.
Victoria James:
It's all downhill from here.
Kerry Diamond:
I doubt that. All right, well, Victoria, thank you for coming by. I know how busy you are, and it's always delightful to talk to you. Thank you for being you and for everything you do.
Victoria James:
Vice versa. Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Victoria James for talking with me, and big thank you to Veuve Clicquot. If you missed our previous Power episodes with Kristen Kish of “Top Chef” or Katina Connaughton of SingleThread restaurant and farm, be sure to go back and give a listen. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to CityVox in Manhattan and Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Tarkor Zehn, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial coordinator is Sophie Kies. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe. Don't forget, use your power for good.