Vivian Howard Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from New York City.
Today's guest is someone very near and dear to me and the Cherry Bombe universe: chef, author, TV host, and proud PBS champion, Vivian Howard. Vivian has been a longtime friend of the show, and if you know her work, you know she has always been one of the most thoughtful, curious voices in food, so it makes sense that her latest PBS series is called “Kitchen Curious.” Vivian goes straight to the pros to get answers about what we're cooking, eating, and buying, from the truth about seed oils and grocery store myths to why the French love frozen food, she digs in with her trademark honesty and humor. Of course, we also talk about Thanksgiving. We talk turkey, sides, stuffing, and lots more. The holiday is just a few days away, as you all know, but I am sure plenty of you could still use some tips, tricks, and advice from one of the country's top chefs. I know I could. We also chat about Vivian's restaurant world. She has her place, Chef & the Farmer in Kinston, North Carolina, where she's hosting intimate kitchen bar dinners. I would like to go to one of those. There is her Charleston spot, Lenoir, and her Outer Banks restaurant, Theodosia. Yes, the same Theodosia from “Hamilton” for all my ham fans out there. Speaking of Charleston, we have a special working lunch event coming up in Charleston on Thursday, December 11th, with OpenTable and the Visa Dining Collection. Head over to cherrybombe.com for all the details and ticket information. I am so happy to reconnect with Vivian Howard. Stay tuned for our chat.
Today's show is presented by JW Marriott. Nature is healing. Those words may come up often as an internet meme in all of our social feeds, but there is truth to be found there. Research has shown that spending time in a natural setting can have a positive effect on our mental and emotional well-being. At JW Marriott, nature is part of the brand's DNA. Founder J. Willard Marriott treasured his daily nature walks, and his wife Alice was an avid gardener. Now every JW Marriott property around the world has its own JW Garden, providing a sustainable source of fresh herbs and vegetables that are used throughout the guest experience, from your welcome elixir to your in-room dining order to your late-night cocktail. Best of all, the JW Garden offers guests a chance to sit, connect to nature, and just be, so you can reap some of those mental health benefits yourself. Think of it as a chance to check in and tune out. Learn more and book your trip at jwmarriott.com.
The new issue of Cherry Bombe magazine is almost here, and it is all about cake. The pages are packed with sweet stories, beautiful recipes, and gorgeous photography, all on thick, lush paper. The issue will be out in early December, so head to cherrybombe.com to pre-order or subscribe. For the cover reveal and behind-the-scenes videos, head to Cherry Bombe on Instagram.
Now, let's check in with today's guest. Vivian Howard, welcome back to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Vivian Howard:
Thank you for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Let's get started because there's a lot of ground that we have to cover. Let's start with “Kitchen Curious.” I have loved all your shows over the years, and you have a brand new PBS series that debuted, I believe last month, right?
Vivian Howard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What is “Kitchen Curious?” I mean, you could tell a lot from the title, but in your words, what is “Kitchen Curious” all about?
Vivian Howard:
“Kitchen Curious,” really, we delve into questions in every episode that I think everyone who has a kitchen has. Over the last five years, I have been doing what I think a lot of people have, which is scrolling, running into a million experts on food and wellness, and what we should be eating and what we shouldn't. I just wanted to provide and also learn. I wanted to ask real experts the answers to these questions and I wanted to kind of dial in on some of them. That's what we do.
And where a chef's life and somewhere South, I think we're somewhat aspirational. In every episode, I go to a farm or I go to the farmer's market. I'm working with really beautiful ingredients that a lot of people can't access. I really wanted this to meet people where they're at. Every episode almost, we go to the grocery store, not the co-op, but like Walmart and Piggly Wiggly, and we go to the aisles where the question resides. I mean, I live in rural America, a lot of people, only the best option they have is a Walmart. So I wanted to represent that.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so interesting that you said you wanted to talk to experts because so many of us consider you an expert, so the fact that you were even craving expertise says something.
Vivian Howard:
Well, that's why. That's one of the reasons, one of the aha moments for having this show was this discussion of seed oils and how over the course of my lifetime, the fat that is trendy has changed. When I was a kid, it was like margarine. I mean, I wouldn't even put margarine on my legs today.
Kerry Diamond:
We had I Can't Believe It's Not Butter when I was a kid.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, exactly. That's margarine.
Kerry Diamond:
I mean, I'm sure that still exists, but yeah, wouldn't touch it now.
Vivian Howard:
And at that time, all animal fats were maligned, and now they're back in vogue. And so it's like I do consider myself an expert in many ways about certain aspects of food, but if I'm confused by the conversation, then I imagine a lot of people really are.
Kerry Diamond:
So, seed oil, once and for all, tell us, just wade right into that Mahua seed oil argument, Vivian. What's the truth about seed oil?
Vivian Howard:
Well, I think the truth, what I actually learned was that we should be eating the spectrum of oils, and that aside from things that don't start with raw ingredients like margarine, we should not demonize any of the foods. That's really what I learned.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good take. Why is tallow trending? I was at a farmer's market this summer and I bought a tallow face cream and stopped using it because my cat wouldn't stop licking my face. That's gross. I'm so sorry people, but I'm just sharing the truth. And then when I was down South, I was in Nashville with my friend Libby Callaway, and we were driving, I saw a giant billboard that said, "Our fries are now fried in tallow." What's going on?
Vivian Howard:
Okay, so there's a really wonderful Revisionist History episode about the McDonald's French fry and how it went from being fried in tallow to being fried in-
Kerry Diamond:
And tallow, it's just beef fat, right? That's what tallow is.
Vivian Howard:
Yes. It's just rendered beef fat and it makes the crispiest, most delicious French fry. But at some point, one man actually took it as his mission in life to change the fat that they fried in at McDonald's and it became a hydrogenated whatever compound. And that's what we've been eating forever and we have learned that that's not good for us and perhaps something like tallow is better.
Kerry Diamond:
One guy?
Vivian Howard:
Yes, basically. I did not know I was going to quote this episode today, so you'll have to listen to it, but it's a fascinating, wonderful episode of Revisionist History, and it was like one guy. He had a heart attack and then he's like, it's because of the tallow, essentially, it's the French fries and he-
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, this was on the Malcolm Gladwell podcast, Revisionist History?
Vivian Howard:
Yes, yes, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you a guest or you just listened to it?
Vivian Howard:
No, I just listened. I wasn't-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you would've been a good guest for that one.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, well maybe one day.
Kerry Diamond:
That is so interesting.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, but I think what's interesting to me about tallow and bacon fat and schmaltz is that really they are fats that we all bring into our kitchens, and if we take a little time to render them, or in the case of bacon fat, just save them, that's the fat we've already paid for, if that makes sense. I don't think that tallow or bacon fat should be a cornerstone of your diet, but for me it's this waste not, want not thrifty thing that draws me to cooking with fats like that.
Kerry Diamond:
I also keep a little thing of bacon grease in my fridge just because you don't want to pour that down the drain in New York City and it seems like a waste to get rid of it.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah. And it's great, if you ever want to make croutons, toss your bread in the bacon fat. I love to make toast and put vegetables or whatever on it and pan fry a big piece of toast in bacon fat and that's a great use for it. Really, swapping half bacon fat for half butter in almost any recipe where butter works, I think adds a nice little porky smokiness.
Kerry Diamond:
Huh, would you do that in a cookie?
Vivian Howard:
Yes, I have done that in a cookie. It's surprisingly very good, but you can't use all bacon fat because it renders out a little differently and gets kind of greasy.
Kerry Diamond:
An all-bacon-fat cookie though, that would be interesting. All right, last question on the tallow beat. Would you use a tallow face cream? I know you have a dog. Your dog would love that.
Vivian Howard:
Absolutely not. Just because, I mean, I've always had acne issues and I know that tallow is not bad, but I know it's saturated and it's going to saturate my pores.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Well, I'll send you the tallow face cream then.
Vivian Howard:
Thank you. Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
So funny.
Vivian Howard:
I'll make a candle out of it.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. Early bird tickets are officially on sale for Cherry Bombe's next Jubilee conference happening Saturday, April 25th, in New York City. Jubilee is our annual celebration of connection, community, and of course, great food and drink. It's one of the biggest gatherings of women and creatives in and around the food world, and the energy in the room is always incredible. Over the years, we've welcomed some amazing speakers to the Jubilee stage: Martha Stewart, Ina Garten, Molly Baz, Sophia Roe, Padma Lakshmi, Caroline Chambers, even Gloria Steinem. You never know who's going to show up, and what magical moments might unfold. To learn more, head to cherrybombe.com. Early bird tickets are available through December 31st, and if you are a Bombesquad member or paid sub-stack subscriber, check your inbox for a special discount code.
You also went to Paris, my favorite place, and visited a supermarché there, but it was all about frozen food.
Vivian Howard:
Yes. So there's a whole episode that kind of touches on the question of ultra-processed foods, but in a different way. I'm arguing that your freezer is the best preservative you have. And one way that I demonstrate that is by going to Paris and going to Picard, which is the French, their favorite grocery store, and everything is frozen.
Kerry Diamond:
You need to say that again because people might not... You have to go to one of them to truly understand it, but literally, it's just a supermarket that has frozen food.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, everything is frozen. They may have a few loaves of baguette or something that's not and people there treat it... When we go shopping for frozen food, it's like we buy a freezer's worth, and it's like, "Oh, we're going to lose power for the winter and we're going to have to eat from our freezer." But the French, they go to Picard every day and pick up whatever they might have for dinner. And it's not all frozen meals. Oftentimes it's prepped, blanched vegetables that they can then throw together a meal easily. The way they shop there is still very French, but not just in the episode. I was only in Paris for two days, so I fly to Paris, we shoot all day. I buy all this food at Picard, I go back to this apartment that we've rented and I cook myself dinner in the microwave and have dinner in my apartment in Paris.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, girl, two days. You couldn't squeeze out an extra day or two?
Vivian Howard:
Well, actually I did end up staying an extra day and I'm so glad that I did, but I hadn't made any plans and so I was staying on the left bank and I picked a restaurant that I wanted to go to. I didn't have a reservation and it was on the right bank and I just spent the whole day walking over there and it was wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
That is the best thing to do over there. Women are crushing it in Paris right now, which is very exciting. I know that that's not what we're-
Vivian Howard:
I know. I wish that Mashama's place had been open. I could have taken her on my little excursion with me.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, tell me when you go back, because last time I was there, Mashama's place wasn't open yet and I'm dying to go back.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, me too.
Kerry Diamond:
So for those who are like, "What are you two talking about?" Mashama Bailey, who lots of you know, she was on our cover. We adore Mashama. She has The Grey down in Savannah. She and her business partner actually opened a restaurant in Paris, which blew everybody's minds because not that easy to have a restaurant in America in Paris, but they're doing it.
Vivian Howard:
I think it looks so much fun. If she gets tired and wants to take two weeks, maybe she could have some guest female chefs from the South come in.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that would be fun. Oh my gosh. Let's talk about the show a little bit more though. You are super committed to PBS and I just have to say I love that about you. You have always been a PBS girl, starting with your very first show, right?
Vivian Howard:
Yeah. People have always said, "You should get on the Food Network or you should do this or you should do that." And over the years I have explored opportunities with different networks, but at the end of the day, I have had to compromise a lot of what I feel is important. I don't want to do TV or social media or anything unless I have a reason or a purpose, unless I feel like I have something to say and that I can add to a conversation in a positive way. And I find that PBS is the only place that will really allow me to do that.
And the other thing, Kerry, that people don't realize about PBS is that I haven't made a show in five years, but I never went off TV. Because PBS, the things that people enjoy, they continue to air and they air all over the country, and if you've ever stayed in a hotel, you run into PBS. I mean, I get texts all the time from people all over the country. They're like, "I'm in a hotel and here you are." So there's a lot. Also, you own everything that you make on PBS, which is so rare. I almost think that PBS is soon to become radical in the way that it once was, and I'm proud to be on it.
Kerry Diamond:
I think that's great. We're proud of you too. Okay. A few other things before we talk restaurants, because I need an update on all your restaurants. How are your kids? How are the twins?
Vivian Howard:
Well, they're not kids anymore. They're freshmen in high school.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, good. Just high school. I was worried they were college age already and I was feel like I'm a hundred years old. Okay, just high school, good.
Vivian Howard:
I mean, I know we are a hundred, but-
Kerry Diamond:
No, we're not. Take that back.
Vivian Howard:
They're good. They're good. They're very different. They're twins and a boy and a girl. And I went to boarding school because I grew up in a rural place and I wanted more opportunity and my parents made that happen for me, and so I had such an amazing experience there that I always said, "If I can make this happen for my kids, I will." I never dreamt that one of them would want to go and one of them wouldn't. That's been really challenging this year. I don't know. It's kind of sad. It's just different, but she is very happy. She's thriving. And I'm picking her up on Friday and she's bringing home a friend from South Korea, and so it's exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that is really exciting. Oh, I'm glad to hear they're doing okay. I met them when they were little and they're such special kids. That's great. Okay, Vivian, walk me through your restaurant world today. Tell me how many places you have and let's just go place by place and tell me what's special about each of them.
Vivian Howard:
We'll start with Chef & the Farmer. I closed Chef & the Farmer three years ago because I didn't feel like it was mine anymore. I didn't know how to insert myself and change it, and I really felt like it needed to evolve, but I didn't know what it needed to evolve into.
Kerry Diamond:
Can I just interrupt and cut you some slack for a second? It was also deep in the pandemic when you closed it.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, yes, yes. But I have this 10,000 square foot building in rural eastern North Carolina, and I wanted to keep the building and keep a very small staff so I needed to figure out how to raise some money. And so I started doing these kitchen bar dinners two Novembers ago. So this is my two-year anniversary. Three nights a month, I do two seatings of roughly 15 to 20 people and it's seven courses and I entertain and I talk through the courses. I started doing it because I needed to raise money, but I have gotten so much out of it and it's been this kind of retribution for me.
Because for years, people would travel from all over the country to go eat at Chef & the Farmer and see me toiling behind the line like they did on the show. And once the show started and I was able to write a cookbook that was 600 pages long, I was not running the restaurant anymore and people were not going to see me, but I was writing that book three blocks from the restaurant. And the guilt of it all got so terrible for me that I tracked another way home so that I would not have to pass the restaurant and see all the people there to see me that were not going to.
Kerry Diamond:
I remember being with you at Charleston Wine and Food and just the pressure you were feeling from people who told you they'd been to the restaurant and you weren't there and how disappointed they were. And I could just see in your face how it was just kind of destroying you on the inside.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, because I didn't want, nor do I want to be in the restaurant every night. I've done a lot in my career to earn opportunities not to have to do that, but I also realized that in a chef's life, I connected with people in a way that people don't normally on TV. That was very transparent. They were literally in my home. It was a really tricky thing. I'm never going to see everyone who goes to one of my restaurants. I just know that. I think the expectation now is that you probably aren't going to see me, but the kitchen bar, every person who goes gets everything they want and more from me.
I can sleep. I sleep so well, not because I'm just tired after that, I do that, but it feels good. And I also in doing that really recognize that I love projects that have a beginning, a middle, and an end. I knew I loved writing books. I loved writing my column and I loved making a show with the season's end. And I love planning and then doing and then winding down and the kitchen bars are that for me.
Kerry Diamond:
It's interesting because you had that relationship with your viewers sort of before social media took off and before influencers became a thing and we had terms parasocial, all these people had a parasocial relationship with you. Well, that's great. I'm glad you've got an option for all of them. Seven courses, that's a lot. Are they your greatest hits?
Vivian Howard:
No. No. So I use it as an opportunity to, one, test recipes for my other restaurants to really celebrate the month and the season. Occasionally, I'll bring something back that has a nugget of the past in it, but we're always learning and I think I'm always becoming a better chef, and so I want to apply that.
Kerry Diamond:
So Chef & the Farmer is in Kinston, North Carolina, for people who want to come to the bar dinners and they can reserve a seat via your website, vivianhoward.com?
Vivian Howard:
Yes. And we're going to have some really big news, Kerry, coming out about Chef & the Farmer in general in the next couple weeks maybe, yeah, three weeks. Anyway, very soon, so.
Kerry Diamond:
Very, very exciting. Stay tuned, folks. And I'm going to try to come to one of the dinners in December. I can't wait.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, yes. I hope you will. So stay tuned on that front. So Lenoir is in Charleston, and that stands for Lenoir County, which is the county that I live in in North Carolina. And so it's Southern food, but really Southern food through the lens of the frugal farmer. So lots of vegetables, grains. We cook with a lot of fruit, that sort of thing. Every time I go to Charleston, it's funny because my kids, everyone says I'm going to town. So I not only go to work at the restaurants, but that's where I do my shopping and my dining out and all of those things. And then last summer I opened a restaurant in Duck, North Carolina, which is way far down in the Outer Banks, and it's called Theodosia. That is when I go to the beach.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that only open in the summertime or is that a year-round?
Vivian Howard:
Yes, yes. So we'll open this year, May 15th, and close at the end of September, but Theodosia is named after Theodosia Burr who actually was sailing from Charleston, where she lived, to visit her father in New York and her ship sank off the coast of Nags Head. We're very close to Duck.
Kerry Diamond:
Aaron Burr's daughter, Theodosia. Do you want to sing a few lines with me from the-
Vivian Howard:
I could. Will you start me off?
Kerry Diamond:
“Dear Theodosia.”
Vivian Howard:
That has been a really wonderful project.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, how beautiful that you named it for Theodosia. That song makes me cry every time I hear it. Did you pick that name because of “Hamilton?”
Vivian Howard:
Well, actually I picked the name because I never grew up going to the Outer Banks, but I was going to open a restaurant there and I'm trying... What connection do I have to this place? And as a kid, I love this little book called The Legends of the Outer Banks, has a dolphin on it. I would take it to camp and read the ghost stories fireside. I was that kid. One of the most famous ghost stories is about Theodosia and she's wandering on the beach looking for her father.
I realized that because of “Hamilton,” the musical, so I was just trying... That was my connection to the Outer Banks. And I also thought if you didn't know who Theodosia was, if you didn't know anything about the ghost story, it's just a pretty word. It rolls off your tongue and it feels like something you want to know more about.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you seen the musical?
Vivian Howard:
I mean, I've seen it on Disney. And I mean, I could sing every word of the album. My kids and I really loved it.
Kerry Diamond:
Every word.
Vivian Howard:
I have not seen it in person. I will, I will.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I'm making a list of all the things we have to do together, Vivian. We have to go to Paris and eat at Mashama's restaurant. We're going to go see “Hamilton.” I thought “Hamilton” was one of the most important cultural moments in my entire life when I saw it.
Vivian Howard:
I mean, I've longed to see it. I mean, I might spontaneously combust watching it in person. I'm serious.
Kerry Diamond:
That's entirely possible. For people who haven't seen it or listened to the soundtrack, the soundtrack is one of the best road trip soundtracks.
Vivian Howard:
It really is, and it's a journey. What I've wondered ever since “Hamilton” is like... Why can't we do that again? Somebody, let's do another one that's just that much fun and that singable and that relevant.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe somebody will make one about Theodosia Burr one day, right?
Vivian Howard:
Maybe.
Kerry Diamond:
Stranger things have happened. Let's go back to Lenoir because you just made me remember the last time I was in Charleston, I think was right when you were opening.
Vivian Howard:
Yes. In the middle of the pandemic. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us some of the highlights at Lenoir. What are the dishes that everybody loves or are you changing the menu constantly?
Vivian Howard:
So the menu changes pretty regularly, but one of the things that is consistent there is we always have my tomato pie, which is something I kind of can't escape, but it's the ultimate vegetarian entree too and something people really love to share. We have my fried collard chips there, which are kind of a Vivian Howard cult classic. I have a really talented chef there. His name's Manuel Dollwet. He's from Germany, and I've learned so much from him about being organized and-
Kerry Diamond:
Can you give him my phone number?
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, I know. I mean, I've learned it. I'm not saying I've applied it, but working with the chef both at Lenoir and Theodosia has been a really cool gift because it has really felt like a collaboration. It's not all on my shoulders, if you will. Actually, you may know Charlotte Coman. She was with Ashley Christensen for a long, long time, and she was my chef at Theodosia, and now she's working with me in Kinston until she goes back to Theodosia in the summer.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, very cool. And Ashley Christensen, our friend in Raleigh, North Carolina, who has the wonderful Poole's Diner. If you're in Raleigh, go there and please order the mac and cheese for me and send me a picture.
Vivian Howard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
How's Hot & Handy? Is it still open?
Vivian Howard:
Handy & Hot.
Kerry Diamond:
Handy & Hot. I think I did that last time I talked to you.
Vivian Howard:
I know.
Kerry Diamond:
Handy & Hot.
Vivian Howard:
Just look it up on the Urban Dictionary and you'll know why it's Handy & Hot.
Kerry Diamond:
And not Hot & Handy. Handy & Hot.
Vivian Howard:
Handy & Hot is great. We kind of specialize in hand pies. They evolve over the seasons. And right now we've got a riff on Thanksgiving stuffed in a hand pie, and we've got a fun like pecan cinnamon roll pie. Hand pies are just the most fun thing because if you have a really tasty bite of something, you can immediately think, "Well, how can I make that into a filling?"
Kerry Diamond:
Did you open Handy & Hot first?
Vivian Howard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Because I do think I went to Handy & Hot and I had some of the unbelievable hand pies. It's just not a thing we really have here in New York City unless you count a knish as a hand pie, which I guess in a sense, it sort of is. No, you're like, "No, not at all."
Vivian Howard:
Knish, not really.
Kerry Diamond:
I take that back. I take that back. A knish is nothing like a hand pie.
Vivian Howard:
And Handy & Hot are biscuits. The South is known for biscuits, but a lot of places, and people love this so I'm not criticizing, but a lot of places are like they put a fried chicken breast and pimento cheese and bacon and a pickled green tomato all in a biscuit. And for me, a biscuit is the filling should just be about complementing the biscuit rather than-
Kerry Diamond:
But you can't eat that the way you described it, and I've seen those because I've been all over the South. You cannot eat that.
Vivian Howard:
No, no. My favorite biscuit, if I'm going to the Bojangles here, I just get a ham biscuit because I think that's a great counterpoint to the biscuit. So at Handy & Hot, we do a ham biscuit with cheddar.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you saying ham, H-A-M?
Vivian Howard:
Yeah, country ham.
Kerry Diamond:
Got it.
Vivian Howard:
But it would be very salty.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know what that is. I couldn't tell whether you were saying a hand biscuit and I'm like, "What the heck is a hand biscuit?"
Vivian Howard:
No, no. We weren't talking about hand pies, but a hand biscuit, country ham with apple preserves, so that's salty and sweet, and then some sharp white cheddar. So those are three fillings, but it's not massive.
Kerry Diamond:
The filling should not be bigger than the biscuit.
Vivian Howard:
Right. The biscuit can't handle it. It can't nor should we ask it to.
Kerry Diamond:
Also, when I went to Handy & Hot, you had Cynthia Wong's Life Raft Treats. It was maybe one of the first times I had tried them, and I love Cynthia Wong. I have not seen her in a hundred years.
Vivian Howard:
I love her too. If you want a fun Instagram to follow, you can see how far behind I am on this when I say that. But I love following Life Raft Treats because they do the most amazing, realistic ice cream creations, like a lunch tray with everything for Thanksgiving on it, and it's all ice cream. I mean, it's just amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
Wasn't she famous for the ice cream-
Vivian Howard:
Not fried chicken.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, the non-fried chicken, but it's ice cream that looks like fried chicken and is so good. I have to say. I mean, you and I have had a lot of laughs over the years, but I don't think I have ever laughed harder than hanging out with Lindsay Collins from F&B Radio and Cynthia when I was in Charleston. Those girls are a good time and I'm very excited to come back. Okay, that was a nice little tee-up to Thanksgiving. You mentioned the Thanksgiving hand pie. What's in the Thanksgiving hand pie?
Vivian Howard:
We have stuffing like some crispy stuffing, so there's texture in there, some turkey and gravy, but really, the most important thing is to have an acidic sweetness. So we've got a chunky cranberry sauce that works in there. So if you were to make a sandwich out of leftovers, all of those things, that's a great idea for the day after Thanksgiving, make a bunch of hand pies and then you can freeze them and then give them away for Christmas.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you deep fry your hand pies or bake them?
Vivian Howard:
We deep fry them because frankly, they are better, but they're all bakeable.
Kerry Diamond:
Sadly, most things are better deep-fried, including turkey.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you ever deep-fried a turkey?
Vivian Howard:
I have. I have. And it's better, but it's an ordeal. You have to have a lot of things in place and you can't do it outside if it's windy.
Kerry Diamond:
You don't want to do it inside.
Vivian Howard:
No, no, no, no.
Kerry Diamond:
I thought that's what you were implying. People, do not deep fry your turkey inside. Especially don't do it in your garage. The one or two times I was around the deep-fried turkey situation, it was outside in a driveway.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, it needs to be outside, but I've just found that if it's windy outside, it's just very hard for the oil to heat up properly. I've not only deep-fried turkey, I've done what looks like slow poaching it in that oil because it wasn't hot enough.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's painful. It was confit of turkey.
Vivian Howard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh. What are some family Thanksgiving traditions that you cannot get away from?
Vivian Howard:
Both my favorite thing about Thanksgiving dinner and the thing that my family does the worst is the dressing. My mom growing up, she would call her famous dressing. It was infamous is the problem, and it's one of the first things I participated in making and it was the Pepperidge Farm cornbread crumbs, saltine crumbs. Everything was fine except rather than sauteing onions and celery to put in there, she would just chop up raw and just put it straight in the dressing. And then we would crack whole eggs and whisk them and pour that over top. And it's just like everything was wrong about it, but I had it every single year. And so now I make a dressing, but we still have that one and I still have a spoonful of it because it just feels right.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, you make two dressings.
Vivian Howard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
You make the ones with your mom's.
Vivian Howard:
An edible one and the one with the raw onions.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't think your mom Scarlett is going to be listening to this episode, but just in case. Sorry, Scarlett. Everybody loves you. Okay, so you've got the infamous one, and then what's in your stuffing?
Vivian Howard:
I like to do nice, crusty stale bread.
Kerry Diamond:
Can it be any bread, baguette, brioche, whatever?
Vivian Howard:
It could be any bread. I like to use something that I find hanging around at the restaurant or at home. I probably wouldn't buy a loaf of bread for it. I would find something because part of the fun of making stuffing for me. using what you have around. So I really like sausage in stuffing, like breakfast sausage, cooked and crumpled up or Italian. Let's go Italian sausage, cooked and crumpled up. Then onions, celery, fennel, maybe some fennel seeds since we're going in that direction.
Kerry Diamond:
How far do you saute them? How far do you take it?
Vivian Howard:
I would get them nice and lightly browned. They haven't just sweat, they're not just sweaty, they're a little bit browned. I would put some garlic in there too and then I would saute some mushrooms separately and add that. I would then call it as an Italian sausage, fennel, and mushroom stuffing, and then pour some chicken broth or turkey broth over top, and maybe some Parmesan cheese, and then bake it like that.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, the cheese is an interesting addition. Do you just mix the cheese throughout or you top it?
Vivian Howard:
The only reason I said Parmesan is because I've got this Italian theme going, so I think you could leave that off because it kind of messes with Thanksgiving and all the other things don't.
Kerry Diamond:
You're going to laugh. I have no idea why this popped in my head when you said, because I have an Italian, I thought you were going to say a boyfriend.
Vivian Howard:
No, I wish. I wish.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my God, that's so funny.
Vivian Howard:
No, I wish I had an Italian boyfriend for Thanksgiving.
Kerry Diamond:
You have an Italian theme going on. Okay, maybe next Thanksgiving. Maybe next Thanksgiving.
Vivian Howard:
Yes. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
And how about turkey? You must be so sick of talking about turkey, having been a chef all these years. How do you make the Thanksgiving turkey, and are you the one who makes it?
Vivian Howard:
Well, I always make a turkey, but my uncle, my mom's brother, always makes a turkey in a bag. That's like a thing. And it turns out pretty good. It's moist, but the skin is terrible.
Kerry Diamond:
You have to go back to turkey in a bag. What is that?
Vivian Howard:
You buy it, and it's in a bag. It's been injected with flavors and it comes out very juicy. This is a thing, I think a lot of people do. I've never purchased one. I've only had my uncle Dwight's.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Anyway, if any of you make turkey in a bag, please DM me. I need to know more details.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, you can tag me too.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. What's a Vivian Howard turkey?
Vivian Howard:
This year, and I've never done this before, but we were talking about stuffing, I should have deleted all of that. Because I do really like to spatchcock a turkey and I've done that several times before. It cooks more evenly, it cooks more quickly. But this year I'm going to make that little stuffing mix and I'm going to press it into the bottom of my roasting dish and I'm going to put my spatchcocked bird on top of the stuffing and roast it that way.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a big roasting pan, or what are you doing it on, a big sheet tray?
Vivian Howard:
Well, I have like a paella pan that will fit it. It's actually the Smithey, like a party pan, but it'll fit in my oven. If you have a relatively small turkey, you could probably do it on a half-sheet pan, like a baking sheet.
Kerry Diamond:
And you're not worried about overcooking the stuffing or are you constantly moistening the stuffing?
Vivian Howard:
Well, the bird is going to render down and keep that stuffing really, really moist. So one of my favorite recipes that I don't know if I came up with it, I didn't get the idea from anyone else, I just... One day I had some bread, a big stale loaf, and I was experimenting with roasting chickens on top of things. And so I roasted a chicken on top of this big slab of bread and it made the most delicious chewy in places, crunchy in places piece of toast I'd ever had. And so this is translated into stuffing that idea.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about a veg side that you're doing.
Vivian Howard:
Well, this is super fun and very region-appropriate. I live in eastern North Carolina, and we grow more sweet potatoes here than anywhere else in the world. I have been doing this thing and we're going to do it at my family Thanksgiving, and it could be an appetizer, honestly. So you roast a whole sweet potato and then cut it in half and you hold half of it in the palm of your hand and you're going to scoop three-quarters of the flesh out, not all of it. So you want to leave a quarter inch of flesh there.
So you have a sweet potato skin, and then you can either roast that in the oven with a little bit of salt and oil or you can fry it, which is frankly better, so it's really crispy, with persimmon and apple and spiced pecans and chopped arugula, chopped mint, some kind of cheese if you're liking blue cheese, farmer's cheese, Parmesan cheese, and then just like lemon juice, honey and olive oil and make that little salad and put it inside of the sweet potato and you can eat it almost like a toast. The sweet potato is the vessel and it's really surprising and delicious and texturally very interesting and-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds so yummy. This is why you're a chef.
Vivian Howard:
And a great way to have a salad on Thanksgiving when I think we don't often work that in well.
Kerry Diamond:
A salad is a must. We had Melissa Clark on the show last week, and she's a big proponent of salad on Thanksgiving. All right, before we let you go, a dessert.
Vivian Howard:
Well, my mom and sister and I were talking about this last night, pecan pie. We were talking about our family's pecan pie. My mom has always made the recipe on the back of the Karo syrup bottle, but just doubled the pecans. It makes for a very nice pie, so we'll definitely have that. But no one ever eats it on Thanksgiving. We eat it the next morning for breakfast with coffee because inevitably there's kind of more exciting desserts at Thanksgiving. We indulge in those and then it's great with coffee in the morning.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds perfect. I love pecan pie. And don't sleep on those recipes that are on the back of the bottle, the box, the package, whatever. I mean, some of those recipes are time-tested and excellent.
Vivian Howard:
They are tested. The one on the back of the Karo syrup, you could just add some orange zest and maybe some grated ginger to really change it. But you have a formula that really works.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, absolutely. Viv, last question. What are you most thankful for this year?
Vivian Howard:
So grateful and thankful to be surrounded by my family. My parents are old and feeble and needy, but I'm 47 years old and I still have them. Thankful that my children are happy and healthy, or happy-ish, I think it's hard to be a 14-year-old nowadays and not have a lot of challenges. Yeah, I'm grateful for all those things.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Okay. We've run out of time for a speed round, but I'm going to ask you the final question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Vivian Howard:
Can they be dead?
Kerry Diamond:
Alive or dead. They can be dead.
Vivian Howard:
Well, I think there's only one obvious answer. It would be Julia Child.
Kerry Diamond:
Why is that?
Vivian Howard:
Well, first of all, I would really like to engage with someone who lived their life pre-social media. She just seemed to have a zest for life and a fun spirit, and a great sense of humor. Laughter is one of the things that I value even more than good food. That would be very important on a desert island.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I have no doubt you two would eat well and laugh a lot. But yeah, talk about parasocial relationships. My God, the whole country had a parasocial relationship with Julia Child.
Vivian Howard:
Yes, yes. We still do, some of us.
Kerry Diamond:
We do. Do you know people would call her on Thanksgiving because her phone number was in the phone book in Cambridge?
Vivian Howard:
Oh my God.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. We've had a lot of folks over the years who worked for Julia, and they would tell us stories like that. Amazing, right?
Vivian Howard:
Yeah. Would she answer?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, she would. She would. Do you want to give everyone your phone number right now? We can broadcast it.
Vivian Howard:
Not today. Not today.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe tomorrow. All right, well, Vivian, thank you, and happy Thanksgiving.
Vivian Howard:
Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Vivian Howard for joining me. We have one more Thanksgiving episode dropping this Wednesday with our friend Tommi Vincent. It's a beautiful show about family, friends, food, and giving thanks. Don't forget, tickets for Jubilee 2026 are on sale. We're taking pre-orders for our beautiful new issue, and we will be in Charleston on December 11th. Visit cherrybombe.com for more. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Special thanks to CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu. Our executive assistant is Brigid Pittman, and our head of partnerships is Rachel Close. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.