Zaynab Issa Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. I've still got a touch of laryngitis, that is what happens when you talk too much, but we're making the best of things. Today is the second episode of our Fashion Plate miniseries, presented by our friends at Boden. Over the next few Wednesdays, we'll be talking to folks at the intersection of food and fashion, one of our favorite subjects, and how they bring taste and style to everything they do.
Joining me today is Zaynab Issa, one of the most fashionable recipe developers and food content creators out there. She is currently working on her debut cookbook titled, “Third Culture Cooking: Classic Recipes for a New Generation.” It will be out in April. I'm very excited about Zaynab's book and I think it's one that all of you cookbook lovers out there will want to add to your collection. It's going to be as stylish and as interesting as she is. Zaynab joins me to talk about growing up in New Jersey with her fashionable sisters, juggling her cultural identities, how she got her start in food media, her love for travel, and more. Stay tuned for our chat.
Our Fashion Plate miniseries is presented by Boden, the British clothing company that you are going to fall in love with. Boden believes in color, timelessness, and attention to detail. If you are mad for plaid, and prints, and corduroy, can we talk about the corduroy for a second? You might not know this about me, but I love corduroy. Boden dropped their corduroy collection earlier this month, and be still my heart, blazers trousers, skirts. There's even a midi corduroy shirt dress. And one of the colors, this is a total coincidence, is Cherries Jubilee. The dress selection in general will thrill you. You can search by length, mini, midi, or maxi, by occasion, and by style. You can even search for, are you ready for this? dresses with pockets. Boden also has great accessories, bag, shoes, and boots. There's Mini Boden for children, and even Baby Boden. Boden was founded by Johnnie Boden, a dog lover and our favorite, a girl dad. His irreverent spirit is a guiding light for the company. You'll meet Johnnie later in our series. Head to Boden.com to brighten your day and your wardrobe. Use code CB10 for 10% off.
Tickets are on sale for our Jubilee 2025 conference, happening April 12th in New York City. That date is so far away, yet not. Jubilee is an amazing day of community, and connection, and great food. This Jubilee is going to be our biggest one yet. We are busy planning lots of exciting stuff for you. And I'll share this just with you, but I think today's guest might be on the Jubilee stage in April, fingers crossed. Early bird tickets are on sale at cherrybombe.com, and if you are an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing.
Now, let's hear from today's guest. Zaynab Issa, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Zaynab Issa:
Thank you for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
You have so much personal style.
Zaynab Issa:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And it really carries over to your food and to your Instagram. You have one of the nicest Instagrams out there.
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, and you really seem to follow what is in your heart, in terms of your Instagram. You're not-
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, there's no other way to do it.
Kerry Diamond:
You're doing Brat summer, you're not doing demure and all that. You're just doing what seems to come naturally to you.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, that's the only way I think, especially with anything creative if you're taking too much inspiration from trends, you're not creating them.
Kerry Diamond:
And you would rather be a creator of trends than a follower?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I think so.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, so trending music, things like that.
Zaynab Issa:
Trending music I think is helpful for reach, but if I'm not being too strategic about it, I probably am not thinking about that too much. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I love that. I want to take it back a little bit further and find out how you developed your eye, because you clearly have an eye, not just for fashion, but photography, for food, for food styling. Where do you think that started to develop?
Zaynab Issa:
Definitely my childhood. So I have a very large age gap between my two older sisters, so I'm one of four siblings. I have a younger brother and my two sisters are seven and 10 years older than me. While they were in high school, I would say figuring out their personal style, I was watching them do it.
I have a uniquely millennial take on style, despite the fact that I'm Gen Z, but definitely they inspired, influenced me in typical older sibling fashion. They're also girls, so I think I took to whatever they were doing, and then my mom also has a very unique aesthetic, a strong personal style as well. Very traditional, loves ruched curtains, mustard, that's her vibe.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, ruched curtains and mustard in the color mustard, or, and mustard like in the fridge?
Zaynab Issa:
The color mustard, the color mustard and the color rust, crystal grapes. That should give you everything that you need to know. She was an esthetician and a hairdresser. Aesthetics and beauty have kind of always been a theme in my life, I would say.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so interesting. And were your sisters cool girls?
Zaynab Issa:
I think so, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Aw, I'm sure they love hearing that.
Zaynab Issa:
Definitely. Both of them have kids, our lives are very different and both of them just came to town to do a birthday celebration for me without their kids for the first time ever, and I was like, is this going to be fun? I haven't hung out with them alone in so long, and it was just the best time ever.
Kerry Diamond:
What'd you wind up doing?
Zaynab Issa:
We went to the US Open championship game, which was really exciting, and then we did Le Veau d'Or, I don't know if I pronouncing that correctly.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I haven't been there yet.
Zaynab Issa:
Which I was really, really excited about and it was nice to do it in a group of four.
Kerry Diamond:
That's the new restaurant from the guys at Frenchette and Le Rock.
Zaynab Issa:
Yes, exactly. I was really excited about it just because of how small and intimate it felt, the French bistro vibe is raging right now. And then we went to Sammy's in Astoria, which is one of my favorite Afghan restaurants, fantastic. We got gelato, a lot of eating. Went to Apollo Bagels, I forced them to wait on the line. I was like, "It's worth it, I promise." They're like, die-hard, Northern New Jersey Goldberg Bagel fans, and I was like, "This is better, I promise."
Kerry Diamond:
Are they foodies like you?
Zaynab Issa:
Yes, definitely, my whole family, both my parents. My mom's family were farmers in East Africa, so I think that presence of food, it was just always around. My grandmother's an incredible cook, all of her sisters are incredible cooks. They raised my mom and her family. I think having four kids, my mom was constantly cooking. My grandma lived with us for a period of time too. So I mean, food is the one thing that was constant in my life.
Kerry Diamond:
Did your mom's interest in aesthetics carry over to food?
Zaynab Issa:
Yes, she has an insane platter collection, very unique glassware, like we have this one vintage cabinet that has housed generations of glassware from my grandmother and my grandfather's wedding martini glasses. We don't drink, why are there martini glasses? I don't know. With gemstones on it, it's just all very interesting, ornate things. None of it is trendy, I would say. It's all just unique.
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like you could do some fun food styling-
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
... for those pieces. That would be a cool series.
Zaynab Issa:
So we actually did a portion of the cookbook in my parents' house. A lot of those elements are present. I feel like you can tell when the vibe shifts into this dark wood, very early 2000s Tuscan kitchen vibe, but it was really interesting and important to me in my cookbook to see that kitchen because that's where I learned to cook. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, I'm envisioning little Zaynab watching her sisters get ready. What were your sisters into?
Zaynab Issa:
Both of my sisters were very into fashion, I would say. My eldest sister is now a psychotherapist, but she was like a mall girl, I would say.
Kerry Diamond:
New Jersey, yep.
Zaynab Issa:
I know, truly. There's a lot of food at the malls, which was what was more interesting to me. My second sister, she did fashion and beauty PR, and that is kind of where I started. Anything she was doing, I was doing. She got her first internship in college freshman year, I emailed her boss to be like, "Can I also write for your blog?" And she said yes, so that was my first internship, was in high school, and it was writing for my sister's boss doing the same thing as my sister. She was so pissed.
Kerry Diamond:
So you're kind of a nepo baby, in a sense.
Zaynab Issa:
That's definitely, I literally just followed everything.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest.
We're hosting our very first Jubilee Wine Country at the beautiful Solage Resort in Calistoga, California, on October 26th and 27th. Join me, Dominique Crenn, Jeni Britton, Tanya Holland, and lots of other amazing folks, for what is going to be an incredible weekend of food, drink and of course, wine. For more information or to purchase tickets, visit cherrybombe.com.
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. It's Jessie Sheehan, the host of She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I have big news for you. My new cookbook, “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes,” is now available. This is my first savory baking book and I'm so excited to share it with all of you. It features 100 easy-peasy baking recipes for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and of course, snacking. From sage butter scones, to smash burger hand pies, and tomato za'atar galette. You'll also find six of my essential savory baking hacks, including how to make my magic melted butter pie dough and the quickest and easiest caramelized onions.
I just announced my cookbook tour, and tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com. I'm in San Francisco on Tuesday, October 8th, Chicago on Tuesday, October 15th, and Boston on Wednesday, October 23rd, and I can't wait to see you. Thank you to Kerrygold and King Arthur Flour for supporting my tour. You can click the link in the show notes of this episode to order the book or pick up a copy at your favorite local bookstore. I hope you love “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes,” as much as I loved writing it.
Kerry Diamond:
New Jersey mall, that's a whole thing, but I'm cracking up that you were more interested in the food at the mall than the clothes.
Zaynab Issa:
100%. Yeah, I loved a Zara trip for sure, but Pinkberry, Cinnabon, Panda Express, Sbarro, Jamba Juice, the Starbucks at Target.
Kerry Diamond:
Auntie Anne's or something.
Zaynab Issa:
Auntie Anne's, yeah, of course, and the food at BJ's is wildly so good. So I remember it. I haven't been to BJ's since I lived with my mom, but she would obviously shop in bulk because there was upwards of 10 people living in our house at all times. It's the churro at BJ's was so good. That was like my, sit in the cart with my churro as she bulk shopped for hours.
Kerry Diamond:
I bet, I bet there are some fans out there. I have never been to a BJ's. I've never been to a Costco, either.
Zaynab Issa:
I haven't been to a Costco either.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what? Maybe we'll, I'll drag you.
Zaynab Issa:
We can do that.
Kerry Diamond:
I did an episode a year or two ago because I had never been to Trader Joe's.
Zaynab Issa:
No way.
Kerry Diamond:
I swear to God, I don't know how it happened. It wasn't a big thing here in New York when I was 20s and 30s, and then every time I tried to go to a Trader Joe's, the lines were out the door and I was like, I can't deal with this. So I never did it, and then finally I was like, I got to-
Zaynab Issa:
You got to go, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
... go visit a Trader Joe's. So we did a funny episode about the Trader Joe's virgin.
So mall culture, also third culture. Let's jump right into it, not just New Jersey culture. You've been influenced in lots of different ways.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, for sure. I think being the child of immigrants definitely puts you in a unique position to absorb American culture as you see it, as you grow. I grew up in a suburban town in New Jersey, I think that's very American. I saw all of the very American things like Friday football, just mall culture, all of that. But at the same time, I'm East African and Indian, Khoja more specifically. That community existed in Queens, New York at the time. And every weekend without fail, we were in New York visiting other Khoja families, going to the mosque. All of that really was a huge part of my life. I would say 30 to 40% of my time was spent engaging in that culture. It really influenced the way I feel about food, the way I feel about community. I think food is the most exciting part about culture, so I absorbed that more than anything.
I think because my parents grew up somewhere else, the notion of leaving the country was very casual. Vacation internationally was very, I feel so privileged to say, very casual, it was like a yearly thing. My parents took us to Greece, Malaysia, London, Paris, and that also influenced the way I felt about food. They would definitely find the Indian restaurant in Paris and make us walk two miles for it and then find out it was closed. That actually happened. They never told us no when it came to food, and I feel so grateful for that, but that also really informed the way I think and feel about food. And I'm very aware that each place has a distinctive cuisine and I think that's a great thing. That's really informed the way I think about food, cuisine, and culture.
I think probably that jump started my fascination with New York City. I felt like it was a place where all the things that I knew kind of existed naturally. Living in New Jersey, I would have to seek it out. When I was away, it was very transient. I'm traveling, that's why I get to be immersed in all these different cultures. But in New York City, it kind of feels like this thing happening all the time. You're constantly seeing something different than yourself, and I think that makes me feel comfortable, interestingly enough. The melting pot of it all really is where I feel safest. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, no, I agree with you. I was running to the city and we always called it the city. Did you do the same?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, same.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. People are like, "The city? Don't you live in the city?" I'm like, "Well, no. Manhattan is different."
Zaynab Issa:
Is the city.
Kerry Diamond:
Manhattan is the city. The second I could hop on the ferry and ride the subway by myself and get a job in the city, I did it. I loved it here.
Zaynab Issa:
I did those FIT pre-college programs.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I did too. Did we talk about that?
Zaynab Issa:
No, we haven't.
Kerry Diamond:
Saturday Live.
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, no way? Is that what it's called?
Kerry Diamond:
It was called Saturday Live when I did it, yeah.
Zaynab Issa:
Okay, they called it, I think Pre-College. You would pick a class, go every Saturday for five or six weeks. I did that I think two or three times with some other kids from my high school and we would rotate carpooling, and that was my first time going into the city regularly for something and it was amazing. I met so many interesting people.
Kerry Diamond:
I loved that so much. I thought it was very, very formative. But yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about riding the subway-
Zaynab Issa:
True.
Kerry Diamond:
... at a young age in your world view, because it is a melting pot down there.
Zaynab Issa:
Growing up in a very American white town made me feel more uncomfortable than comfortable, and then right across the bridge, literally 15 minutes from my house, there's this. I'm wearing a scarf, so it's not a thing, nobody's looking at me and thinking, oh, what is that on her head? Literally 15 minutes away from my childhood home, which is still something I find so interesting. Walking around there, whenever I return, I feel a little bit off.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so interesting, it's almost like there was this portal that you went back and forth.
Zaynab Issa:
Literally, state lines, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting. Did you study at FIT?
Zaynab Issa:
No, so I studied at Baruch College. I desperately wanted to go to NYU. My parents had sent me for a summer before senior year to do another credit bearing pre-college program. I had the best time. I really loved downtown New York after that. I got into NYU and then I think what ended up happening was scholarship paperwork came through for Baruch and so my parents were like, "If you're getting a free ride, you're going to Baruch. It's a great business school." They had always pushed me towards a more traditional professional career, so they were like, doctor, lawyer, work in finance. I think for them, their view as immigrants is safety is your priority. For me now, I'm like, you guys did that part, you made us safe. You did the hard work. Don't you want to see what I can do here? You came here for what? For opportunity to live out your American dream and luckily you succeeded at it. This is the fruit of the American dream, is like your children have the opportunity to do anything safe or not.
Kerry Diamond:
Because you knew you were a creative?
Zaynab Issa:
I think they all knew it. Anything I had ever done, I would make soap in middle school, cupcake soap, that Bramble Berry era on YouTube. I would make that and sell it at school. I always had a creative entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, I got in trouble for it constantly. I was making lip balm and then I would get sent to the principal's office because you can't sell things at school, and then people would be like, "Just give it to me. I'll give it to you. I'll give you cash at recess." Okay. So I think they knew that I had it in me, but I think they just didn't understand how I could work in food outside of a restaurant and make money. Their idea of restaurant life was not what they had in mind for me. The hours were crazy, it was not stable. One thing that bothered them a lot would require pork and alcohol being in my life in a way that for them, they're just like, "That's not for us. We don't do that."
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like we missed a step. We've talked about your creative side, your entrepreneurial side. You showed that at a super young age. Your sisters were into fashion and beauty, you were as well. You went to FIT, but then food becomes a professional interest?
Zaynab Issa:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Where'd that happen?
Zaynab Issa:
I had wanted to go to culinary school. I had created a-
Kerry Diamond:
Instead of college?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I had created a plan. I was going to go do culinary school in Dubai, where they would honor, I only ate halal meat. I don't eat pork and I don't drink. That would be something that was familiar to them, if I tried to push it, they would respect it. My parents were like, "You're 17 years old. You're not moving to Dubai." I was pretty good at pushing back, but that just felt like something that was so big that it was so far from anything I could realistically convince them to do. Instead, I had made a deal with them that I would go to Baruch, provided I could live in the city, which is something my sisters hadn't done. They said yes to that and they did keep their word, although it took them a minute to get there.
Culinary school was always something that I really wanted to do, but they made it seem impossible. I don't know why. Personally, I never thought of a career in food media. I think the one thing about representation that I think has merit, I don't always agree with all of the thoughts behind everyone needs to be working in every field, but I do think that it's helpful to see someone doing something that you want to be doing, for you to feel like it's possible. I didn't know anyone in food media, I didn't know what that looked like, it wasn't even an option. I obviously watched Food Network so much, but I mean, nobody really looked like me. There was, I think one South Asian host. It just felt like so far. So if it wasn't restaurants, how was it going to work?
Food basically became my hobby. It continued being an interest of mine. It was never something I was pursuing. I thought I had a better shot at working in fashion, so I kind of pursued the breadth of fashion internships that were available to me. I did PR, I did styling.
Kerry Diamond:
Where did you intern?
Zaynab Issa:
I interned at Bradbury Lewis. I interned at Time Inc, and The Knot as well. The Knot was editorial and Time Inc. was basically influencer marketing, which really informed the way I feel about what it means to be someone on the internet that gets paid to advertise. The Knot was really great for traditional writing experience, my boss there was amazing. My last internship was at The Knot in 2019. Right after that, I went to study abroad in Florence for a month, I did the winter semester. And then I entered into my last semester of college. That was when I wrote the zine for my thesis project, and that kind of propelled my career. And that was when the pandemic hit, that was when I started posting on TikTok. They say, when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, the dominoes start to fall, and I felt like that was really true.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about the zine. I love a zine.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, the zine was my art minor. The project was to create any project that was a commentary on the political climate in the U.S. at the time. For me, I'm like the only thing that I think can get people to understand each other or at least see that we're so much more similar than we think, is food. Sitting together over a shared meal is the most eye-opening experience. If you hate somebody but you go out with them, 20 minutes in, it's like, oh, she's not that bad. It's just the way it goes.
I ended up basically formally recipe developing with the help of Dani Dillon, who now works at Care of Chan. She was at The Wing where I had a membership back in 2020, 2019. I reached out to her and I was like, "Can you help me with this?" And she was so, so helpful.
Kerry Diamond:
Dani's great.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, she really is. I just kind of started formalizing these recipes that I had grown up eating that nobody knew anything about. If you don't know what Khoja culture is, how would you know what Khoja food is? But it's very specific, it's also in and of itself, kind of third culture because there's the migration pattern there too, and a mixing of cultures and influences. I think it was 10 or 15 recipes. The philosophy was very like, make these, learn about something you don't know. See if you like it and apply that principle to your life and through food. That got in the hands of, I think she was the social media manager at Bon Appetit, Emily Schultz at the time, and she posted it and then she offered to connect me with people. And I mean, I kind of owe my professional food media career to her. I really feel that way.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you sell the zine or was it just for school?
Zaynab Issa:
My professor ended up telling me to sell it, and I had been garnering a bit of a TikTok following from just cooking. I wouldn't say I was recipe developing consciously at that time. I was very much telling, in that way that we were talking about. I was telling people what I was making and people were following me for it. I had made this scene, my professor was like, "Sell it." I ended up ordering 1,000 copies of it, which is still crazy to me. Who bought it? I don't know, but I fulfilled every single order myself, and I think that kind of pushed me into feeling like, okay, I know what I'm doing. People are making these recipes, they're working, they're enjoying them, they're really dabbling in the unfamiliar. There was no fusion in these recipes. These were recipes exactly as they were made. I maybe made one or two changes, but there was no real food editing happening for ease and convenience. Damn, if people are interested, there's an audience for this, which was really exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh, I have so many questions. Let's talk a little bit about Khoja cuisine before we talk about magazines and your zine and things like that. I would love to learn more.
Zaynab Issa:
I've done a lot of research on this. I've written an article for Eat Magazine that kind of tracks the migration pattern that created what is now the Khoja diaspora. So for the most part it's people from India, namely Gujarat, that migrated into East Africa, mostly Kenya, Tanzania, and Zanzibar, which are all off the eastern coast. This was many generations back. Then what happens is they start to mix with the local people. The Swahili language is born, which is a mixture of Arabic, Bantu, and Hindi. You have this whole new population.
The food is heavily spiced. There's a lot of coconut, rice, tomato, onion. There's also heavy regional differences. It's very unique, but it kind of feels familiar if you are familiar with South Asian food, Middle Eastern food, or African food. You can see the intersection, but it's definitely a mix in and of itself. It's delicious, it's the food that I think of when I think of nostalgic food.
Kerry Diamond:
Want to give us a few examples of dishes?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, so one of the most popular ones I would say is Kuku Paka, which is a chicken and coconut curry that's spiced with turmeric. There's tomato, onion, coriander, tons of coconut milk. Ideally, it's using fresh coconut milk. Some other examples are Khoja biryani, which is also known as Swahili biryani and it's like South Asian biryani, but has more of a stewy sauce that kind of cascades over the spiced rice. It's fantastic, definitely top five favorite meals. Pilau, which is a rice pilaf, heavily spiced with cumin. There's goat meat and beef usually in there. Potatoes, garlic, ginger, sometimes tomato, chilies. There's a recipe in my cookbook for that, which is my mom's recipe, it's my favorite recipe in the book.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I can't wait.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, it's fantastic.
Kerry Diamond:
Are there any Khoja cookbooks?
Zaynab Issa:
There are. They're more that style of between homes, so they're self-published generally, that Zine could be considered a Khoja cookbook, but I wouldn't say there's any formalized one. There is “AfriCali,” which is an amazing cookbook that was recently published. She's East African, she's Kenyan. A lot of those influences are represented in her book as well, so that's amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
And how about any restaurants that specialize in that?
Zaynab Issa:
Very few. Yeah, I know, I can't think of any, in fact. Yeah, there's opportunity there, for sure.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. You sometimes think the food world's covered.
Zaynab Issa:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
But not necessarily.
Zaynab Issa:
Especially as people get more familiar with the regionality of cuisine, you really realize you haven't covered anything.
Kerry Diamond:
So the Bon App folks discover your zine. What I do know about you, you think like a magazine editor, definitely feel like you could have been an editor-in-chief, even just the way you organize-
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
... your Instagram and your social media. I feel like you think in that way.
Zaynab Issa:
I'm a Virgo, that should tell you everything you need to know. Definitely very analytical. I like to think big picture and then work down.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Even your travel guides, I mean, there's so much that we can talk about that you do. But okay, so you go to Bon App. What did you do there?
Zaynab Issa:
So I was-
Kerry Diamond:
Right out of school?
Zaynab Issa:
Pretty much, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I was 22 when I got that job, which is crazy to think of. They really put me through the wringer interview-wise though. I think that that interview process was six months. Chris Morocco was my manager at the time. He took a risk on me and I'm aware of that, and I think he really helped me hone my skills, along with everyone else in the test kitchen, it's a very collaborative environment. I got hired as Associate Food Editor. There was two others at the time, Kendra Vaculin and Rachel Gurjar. Christina Chaey was Senior Food Editor, and underneath the Assistant Food Editor was Jessie YuChen, whose responsibility is mostly cross-testing, some food editing as well. The job of the associate food editors is really just to develop recipes and food edit recipes, pitch stories, work with social, and appear on video occasionally. So that was definitely a dream job.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you think you were going to wind up doing when you graduated?
Zaynab Issa:
Editorial, for sure. I wanted to work in traditional media, I really value traditional media. I owe a lot of my career to social media. I think that the way information moves in traditional media is much, much, much healthier. As far as disseminating information, it's checked multiple times, there's so many eyes on it, it's getting better. It's like putting a wet piece of clothing in the dryer and it's tumbling and it's moving and it's moving, and when it comes out, it's dry, it's wrinkle-free, it's crispy. Social media, you have to put a lot of eggs in your own basket in a way that kind of makes me uncomfortable. I'm glad I did it, of course, because I feel like it's the future in a lot of ways, but I love having that background. I don't think I could confidently do social media without that background. Pursuing the job of influencer is a little freaky to me.
Kerry Diamond:
You seem a little uncomfortable with that title, even.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You do not call yourself an influencer.
Zaynab Issa:
Technically, I know I am one. I got to get behind it probably a little bit more. I think I do a lot of work in traditional media that makes me feel like it's fine.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. I do like the term content creator much better, because I think that at least recognizes the work that has to go into this.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, true. For me, I know what that means, that someone that's making money by being present on the internet, so call me what you want kind of thing. I need to be doing things outside of that to make me feel okay with that term. I don't think I could ever just appear on the internet.
Kerry Diamond:
So tell folks how you make a living.
Zaynab Issa:
I have a cookbook deal, that's a very big part of how I make a living. I also publish recipes, freelance with magazines, so like The Kitchn, King Arthur, and then also I do sponsored content work, which is definitely a big chunk of it. That's why I couldn't write it off. I think once you start seeing the money to be made in ad work, it's very difficult to write it off. That's why I can't say I'm not an influencer, because if you present me with the right brand, the right opportunity, I'm going to take it.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you maintain your integrity when doing projects?
Zaynab Issa:
Saying no, a lot. You have to say no a lot. I mean, people can see through it. If you are a good influencer, people know what's on brand for you. So if you see me doing an ad and you raise an eyebrow, you have a right too. I raise an eyebrow when I get certain. I'm like, oh, if they're reaching out to me, I must be doing something wrong. I'm not representing myself well enough, if the person behind this ad thinks that I would do it. I mean, sometimes they're shooting their shot, but a lot of the times the outreach that I get is quite... I'm even surprised that they would want to work with me. I did a job with The RealReal, that was so exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love The RealReal.
Zaynab Issa:
Because I love The RealReal. I also did a job with All-Clad. It's like a year long job and that's a dream.
Kerry Diamond:
Another great brand.
Zaynab Issa:
That one, I'm like, I want to work with you guys forever. I have purchased this cookware many times over the course of my life, every single piece I've used is fantastic. When those come through, the alignment is there. I also, I think, have a very hard time doing things I don't want to do. And so if the alignment isn't there, it's, I'm dragging my feet.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, it seems like you have a lot of integrity. I think that's what it comes down to.
Zaynab Issa:
I try to.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah.
Zaynab Issa:
I can't work well if I feel like who I am is being compromised.
Kerry Diamond:
Where are you most active?
Zaynab Issa:
Instagram.
Kerry Diamond:
On Instagram? Okay.
Zaynab Issa:
Right now, yeah. I've been working on this cookbook for two years now. Before that, I was working at Bon Appetit. Before that, I was pretty much exclusive, I was in college and posting on Instagram. The work that I was doing for the past three years, including Bon Appetit is the work that I was doing on social media, in terms of recipe development. Obviously much more refined, but recipe development, content creation, all of that was happening at the magazine and is happening for the cookbook.
I see certain creators that are able to manage both throughout the whole thing and I'm like, wow, I wish. I don't have the brain space to put my all into all of these different things. I'm the kind of person that whatever's right in front of me is what's getting most priority. Now things are sort of trailing off with my cookbook and I can pick up on socials again, which I'm very grateful to be able to have somewhere always to put that energy. I do always want to be creating.
Kerry Diamond:
Before we talk about your book, let's talk about travel. You've been traveling from an early age to very interesting places. You were in our Paris issue.
Zaynab Issa:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you for that.
Zaynab Issa:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I loved learning about all your recommendations, but you share a lot on your stories. All your travel guides, which are fantastic. What are some of your favorite places to visit?
Zaynab Issa:
Okay. I love Istanbul, that's one of my favorite cities. I loved Ischia, which is where I just went a few weeks ago. It's an island in the Gulf of Naples. Absolutely stunning, beautiful, food was incredible. Mexico City is a great one for food specifically as well. Hotel-wise, Palm Heights is a great hotel, very close. It's like a 15-minute drive airport to hotel, which is also ideal when you want a quick weekend getaway.
Kerry Diamond:
Any place in the U.S.?
Zaynab Issa:
I like Miami, I do. I mean, you can't beat New York. If I have to pick a place in the U.S. I'd pick New York. So much good food here. London is nice.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you travel for food first?
Zaynab Issa:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you pick a destination?
Zaynab Issa:
Yes. I pick a destination by hotel, to be honest. I love a good hotel. A hotel will draw me into the destination and then I will build off of that. So the Peninsula in Istanbul is a stunning, stunning hotel. It's the best hotel I've been to, I think. Turkish food is something that I frequently eat here. There's a really great place on Long Island called Bosphorus, they have wonderful food. Yeah, I'll build from there, but hotel kind of draws me in because I am a homebody. If my base isn't great, I'm not going to have a good trip.
Kerry Diamond:
So interesting. I'm thinking of all these potential career plans you could go down one day.
Zaynab Issa:
I know, literally.
Kerry Diamond:
Like an editorial director, creative director for a hotel group, or.
Zaynab Issa:
I would love all of that, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. Let's talk about your real baby right now, which is your cookbook. I know you're so proud of this. Tell us the title and how it came about.
Zaynab Issa:
The title is, “Third Culture Cooking: Classic Recipes for a New Generation.” The title originally in my proposal was “Third Culture.” I kind of always was very fascinated by that concept, it's the one term that really describes how I feel about my own identity. It recognizes that there's a multitude to me, as a child of immigrants who grew up in a country outside of where their parents grew up. And so I think it's a really strong term and interestingly enough, does describe America in and of itself. Most of us come from somewhere else and have a lineage we can trace outside of here. So to think about American food as third culture food in and of itself is something that's really fascinating to me, and that's kind of how the concept of the book was born.
It's exactly how I develop a recipe with multiple influences, different techniques, different ingredients. I think the American-ness in my recipes is the way they're written, the pantry that I'm using, it's global, but it's still like you can find all of these things at Whole Foods. I think that it's kind of where people are at right now with food too and how they want to be cooking, which is really important to me to meet people where they are. I want to be efficient in my work and making sure I feel like I'm creatively expressing myself and filling a need for myself, but also that it's useful to other people.
Kerry Diamond:
The title is such a great title, because third culture isn't necessarily a term that everybody knows, but once you understand what it means.
Zaynab Issa:
Everything starts making sense. Yeah, for sure. I think it's something that if you are a child of immigrants, you've come across pretty early in your life when you're having that identity crisis of like, I'm not enough of this and I'm not enough of this, so what am I? And I think it can apply to cuisine just as much as it can identity.
Kerry Diamond:
When is the book coming out?
Zaynab Issa:
April 1st is currently is the publication date.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, right. I knew that because you're going to speak at Jubilee.
Zaynab Issa:
Oh yeah, yes. Very excited for that.
Kerry Diamond:
Our first official Jubilee speaker, everybody. Tickets are on sale right now if you want to come-
Zaynab Issa:
Definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
... hear Zaynab and get a signed copy of her book. Are you taking the photos?
Zaynab Issa:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Who's your photographer?
Zaynab Issa:
Graydon Herriot is who I worked with.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, wow, fancy. Okay.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I had my dream team pretty early on, I think from working at Bon Appetit. You learn a lot about photo style and who the options are, and there's obviously a multitude and so many incredible options. Graydon Herriot are the photographers that, their work has always just really stuck with me. I love how classic it is. I think when you're working on a project this big, you can't help but feel like this is the end-all be-all project. With that feeling in mind, I was like, I just need this to feel classic. I want to look at this in 20 years, since I've poured my heart into it for two years, and be like, wow, I made some good decisions. This still is kind of beautiful. You know what I mean? So I didn't want anything over-designed or over-photographed. I wanted to create multiple worlds too, because I feel like sometimes cookbooks, the style is very distinct and it makes flipping through it a little bit boring, but I feel like if you don't follow a specific aesthetic, then each page just is kind of like a new world, something new to suck you into.
Kerry Diamond:
Has the process made you a better recipe developer and cook?
Zaynab Issa:
Definitely. I think I had gone from cooking to cook, cooking for editorial, which is you're being checked a lot, your idea is never really your idea because it's been changed so much, which I think is very beautiful. But something about a cookbook when you're the author of it is like, it's exactly the way I wanted it to be, which is crazy, but it's very different, in terms of having to check yourself. I worked with a bunch of recipe testers, namely Kat B, who's amazing at her job. And then I had my assistant for the book also cross-tested recipes because she's like an avid cooker from cookbooks, so her opinion was super valuable to me, what was working for her wasn't. But I mean, in the same vein, editorial recipes get cooked a lot and checked a lot, and I wanted that to be true here too, because while I care a lot about beauty, I also care a lot about function. Making sure it's been cooked by many different cooks is important.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a food stylist?
Zaynab Issa:
Pearl Jones.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I've always loved Pearl's work. I worked with her in the test kitchen at Bon Appetit, and her instincts aligned the most with my own, which I feel like is very important when you're working on a project like this. Working with people whose work you admire already. Talent can be different if the tastes align. I feel like you're setting yourself up for success. I think with everyone, Rebecca Bartoshesky did the prop styling as well. Everyone on the team, we pushed the book out as well, because I wanted to be able to work with all of these people. There was synergy and taste, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have personal styling principles?
Zaynab Issa:
Definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
I never stopped to thinking about mine, but I guess we all do. What are yours?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, definitely. Unfortunately, value, comfort.
Kerry Diamond:
Why is that unfortunate?
Zaynab Issa:
Because I mean, you're sacrificing something by prioritizing comfort. I'll pick-
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I'm going to stop you right now. I have never not seen you look really chic. I mean, there's a difference between somebody who's walking down the street in sweatpants or athleisure, and you.
Zaynab Issa:
It's more like when I change out of the itchier mohair sweater into the cashmere sweater, because I'll be good with whatever the day throws at me in this softer sweater than the sweater that looks better. That's like a decision I always grapple with is like, this looks so much better, but I'll feel so much better in this. So I'll always pick what I feel better in, which is unfortunate because I'm aware of what could have been. Comfort goes into function for me. Color palette wise, I stick to darker tones. I like a white T-shirt, but that's kind of as far as my interest in very light colors goes.
I like pops of color in accessories. I believe in a simpler outfit with heavy accessorizing. I think accessories really can define your style as a person, which is a printed shoe, a colorful bag, a black bag is great, but a colorful bag is like, oh, okay, interesting choice. Color creates a lot of visual interest for me. The tension between colors will make me look at your outfit. I live in New York, I love an all-black outfit, but when I see someone playing with color right, I love it. I think accessorizing color and comfort define my style.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you in the book? Are there a lot of pictures of you? I know for some authors that's a tough call.
Zaynab Issa:
It is tough. I don't like the idea, again, I was thinking about this book as my end-all be-all project. I don't like the idea of preserving my face in time. In 20 years I'll look at that and be like, oh my God, I look so different. I didn't love the idea of that, but I do have two photos.
Kerry Diamond:
Or you look back and be like, oh, look at me.
Zaynab Issa:
Ideally, I think that's the conclusion I came to is, it's better to have it than to not. So I think I have two photos in the book, which feels like plenty.
Kerry Diamond:
And did you obsess over the photos or what you were wearing, or?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, we did it in prop two. I would say it was the last day of my first set of shoots. I honestly don't think I had the brainpower to obsess over it. I wasn't sure when it was happening.
Kerry Diamond:
A cookbook will do that to a person.
Zaynab Issa:
I know, literally. I barely remember any of it. There's a portrait actually, that I definitely did obsess over a little bit with me, my mom and my grandmother, which was really important to me to nail. And I wanted to do a lot more with the styling of it than I did, but I'm really happy with the way it came out. It's very minimal, it's soft and bold, which I think is going to age really well. It's a very nice composition as well, so I love that photo. And otherwise, yeah, they're pretty simple, I'm happy with them. In one of them, I'm wearing a black polka dot dress, which is very simple. In the portrait I'm with my grandmother, I'm wearing a black dress as well, and then I'm wearing a white top in another one of them. They're all more timeless. I'm definitely doing less than I would regularly, but I think it's for the best.
Kerry Diamond:
I can't wait to see those photos. Whose style do you admire?
Zaynab Issa:
I like Zoe Kravitz's style a lot.
Kerry Diamond:
I love her, very delicate tattoos and jewelry choices.
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, exactly. A lot of contrast and tension in her style. In what you're talking about, her tattoos, but the jewelry. I think she looks like an angel when she's walking as well, which it helps. She carries clothes well, which people don't talk about enough. It's not just the clothes, it's how you're walking in them. How they are sitting on you makes a big difference to how the outfit looks.
Kerry Diamond:
So your book's coming out in April. What is going on between now and then?
Zaynab Issa:
So we're wrapping up all of the final cover design stuff, all really interesting, exciting conversations. As a first-time author, it's all very new to me and I'm definitely feeling the weight of the decisions, but I'm really excited. I know everything will be exactly how it's meant to be. Then I think we go to print soon, which is crazy because then everything's done. There's no more decisions to be made, which I'm really looking forward to.
Kerry Diamond:
So thrilling. All right, let's do a little speed round. What's your morning beverage?
Zaynab Issa:
Matcha, strawberry matcha.
Kerry Diamond:
Strawberry matcha. Oh, how do you make your strawberry matcha?
Zaynab Issa:
If I'm making it at home, I'll use strawberries, raspberries, or blackberries, whatever berry I have in the fridge. Honey, salt, muddle it at the bottom of a glass. I'll make my matcha like hot water, matcha powder. Milk goes into the glass, matcha goes on top, stir it all together, drink it with a bubble tea straw so that I can get the pieces of blackberry or strawberry up the straw. If I'm buying it though, which is more often than not, I'm getting it from KIJITORA in Williamsburg. I get an iced strawberry matcha latte, skim milk, less strawberry so it's not too sweet.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, I need to get my butt over to Williamsburg.
Zaynab Issa:
It's so good. It's so, so good, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
It sounds great. Yeah, okay. What's always in your fridge?
Zaynab Issa:
Cucumbers.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite thing in your closet?
Zaynab Issa:
Probably a watch.
Kerry Diamond:
A watch?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I want to be eventually a watch collector. I'm working my way there.
Kerry Diamond:
Looking at your wrist, you are wearing a watch. Okay, you'd like to be a watch collector?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I love watches. I don't know, I'm so fascinated by them. There's something that it's quite dated about them. It reminds me that time is subjective, and what 24 hours feels like to me is different than what 24 hours feels like to you. So, I think I like it for that reason.
Kerry Diamond:
Beautiful. What is a treasured cookbook in your collection?
Zaynab Issa:
“Salt Fat Acid Heat,” yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Classic.
Zaynab Issa:
That taught me a lot about cooking in general.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming?
Zaynab Issa:
I just finished “Suits,” which is like a show I started when I was 16 years old and for some reason I never kept up with it properly, but anytime I would see a new season get released somewhere, I would watch it. I thought I finished it, but I hadn't. And Netflix, I guess put it up last year, and so I watched the last two seasons and I watched the last episode of the last season last night, and it was great.
Kerry Diamond:
Favorite snack food?
Zaynab Issa:
I like that Himalayan pink popcorn.
Kerry Diamond:
What was your favorite food as a child?
Zaynab Issa:
Jamoca ice cream from Baskin-Robbins. I would have that every Friday. My dad would take me every Friday after he got back from work. I love that ice cream forever.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite food smell?
Zaynab Issa:
I think it's onions and garlic and ginger, specifically. If there's not ginger in it, it doesn't hit as hard, but I think that's because onions, garlic, ginger is like a nostalgic trio for Khoja cooking.
Kerry Diamond:
Footwear of choice in the kitchen.
Zaynab Issa:
I don't wear shoes in the kitchen unless I... When I was in the test kitchen, I was wearing sneakers.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you did? You wore sneakers?
Zaynab Issa:
Yeah, I wore Solomons throughout my time at the test kitchen. I love Solomons, those are the most comfortable sneakers I own. But when I'm cooking at home, I'm not wearing shoes in the house.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Dream travel destination?
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, right now, I've been thinking a lot about Tunisia. Tunisia and Oman are top of my list right now.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Last question. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, Ina Garten or Padma Lakshmi. Yeah, those. Who do I pick?
Kerry Diamond:
Why those two? Maybe you could bring them both.
Zaynab Issa:
Ina Garten because, dying to pick that brain. Really, I want to know. I want to be able to read her as a person, desperately. And Padma Lakshmi, I just think is iconic, obsessed. I would love to get my cookbook in her hands, that would make me so happy. I like what she's doing with “Taste the Nation.” I think she's a South Asian that's been in media for a really long time. Would be really interesting to talk to her.
Kerry Diamond:
Padma is one of my heroes, I love her. And funnily enough, a lot of people say Ina and Padma, but no one's tried-
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, really?
Kerry Diamond:
... to get them on the island together.
Zaynab Issa:
Together.
Kerry Diamond:
Just you.
Zaynab Issa:
Only together.
Kerry Diamond:
Zaynab, this was so nice. I loved getting to know you better.
Zaynab Issa:
Thank you so much for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
And I'm very proud of you and everything you've done.
Zaynab Issa:
Oh, thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
I just feel like there's so much more you're going to do-
Zaynab Issa:
I hope you're right.
Kerry Diamond:
... in the food, and media, and hospitality world, and I can't wait to see what's next for you.
Zaynab Issa:
Thank you so much for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Zaynab and the team at Boden for making our miniseries possible. Don't forget to use code CB10 if you're shopping over at Boden.com, and check back next Wednesday for more Fashion Plate. I would love for you to follow Radio Cherry Bombe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave a rating and to review. Let me know what you think about the show and who you would love to hear from on a future episode. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to the teams at CityVox and Good Studio. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.