Victoria James Transcript

 Victoria James Transcript

Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe. And I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Each week, we talk to the coolest culinary personalities around the folks shaping and shaking up the food scene.

Today's guest is Victoria James, one of the most important voices in the world of wine in my humble opinion. Victoria became the youngest sommelier in the US at the age of 21. And she's the author of a brilliant and often harrowing memoir titled Wine Girl. I highly recommend you pick up a copy.

Victoria's an amazing human being. And I am honored to speak with her. We talk about her book, her upcoming project with Lenox, being a new mom, her role at the COTE Restaurant group in New York and Miami and her role in the wine world's MeToo Movement. Stay tuned for our chat.

Today's show is sponsored by Luke's Lobster and American Unagi. If you think sustainable seafood is important, definitely listen up. Luke's Lobster, along with the Island Institute of Maine, has partnered with American Unagi to sell their locally sourced responsibly raised, smoked eel on Luke Lobster's online market.

This part is very interesting. American Unagi is led by Sara Rademaker, the founder and CEO of the country's only glass eel farm, which she started after learning there wasn't a single eel growing facility within the US. Before American Unagi, glass eels consumed in the US were caught locally, flown internationally to be raised and then flown back to the US. Makes no sense, right? Sarah, Luke's Lobster, and the Island Institute are working hard to support means coastal communities and the fishermen and women based there. As someone who loves seafood and the beautiful state of Maine and visits there every summer, that's important to me too.

If you'd like to try American Unagi smoked eel or maybe some lobster or other sustainably sourced seafood from Maine, visit lukeslobster.com. Use code Cherry 15 now through March 31st for 15% off all products. Next week, I'll share some of the ways I've been enjoying American Unagi smoked eel.

Now, for some housekeeping, tickets to our Jubilee Conference on April 2nd are sold out. If you'd still like to attend, you can sign up for the waiting list on cherrybombe.com, and make sure you're signed up for our newsletter too. We have some exciting activities planned for Sunday, April 3rd, in New York City that all of you can take part in.

Now, let's join today's guest, Victoria James, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.

Victoria James:
Thank you so much for having me.

Kerry Diamond:
It is so nice to see you, even though we're not in the same room together. You're down in Miami. Lucky you. Okay. Before we talk about your book, let's get a few life updates from you. Where does life find you today, and who is the newest member of your family?

Victoria James:
So, I just recently had a daughter six months ago. Her name is Simone, and she is just wonderful. She's teething now. So no one's sleeping very much. But she is such a joy.

Kerry Diamond:
Simone is such a beautiful name. Why did you pick that name?

Victoria James:
My husband, Lyle, and I, we had a running list of names that we were thinking about while I was pregnant. And I felt like we just really had to meet her first. And so, we met her. And she just seemed like such a Simone. We're both Francophile and we loved the literary world. So we were going to Simone and Harper, like Simone de Beauvoir and Harper Lee. And we decided on Simone Harper.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that. Okay. A very literary little girl. Okay, nice. Okay. Practically speaking, I have to ask this, how do you work as a sommelier when you're pregnant?

Victoria James:
That's a great question. So, first of all, I wasn't really showing until I was around six months. So in the very first trimester, I found out I was pregnant, Kerry. And literally the next day, I had to go down to Miami to open up this restaurant down here. So our second restaurant COTE, we have in the design district here, and we were throwing a crazy New Year's Eve party with Nas. And there's lots of champagne and everything.

And I was like, "How am I going to do this?" And let me tell you, I opened up this restaurant. I was down in Miami for the whole first trimester for three months. I think I was the only sober person in this entire city. And it was definitely a learning curve. We had been trying to get pregnant for a while, and it wasn't as easy as we thought. And so, when it happened, it was such a joy. But I didn't really think about practically, I guess, how it would work. I taste up to a hundred wines a day for my job.

Kerry Diamond:
A hundred a day.

Victoria James:
A hundred a day.

Kerry Diamond:
I probably should have asked first for you to explain what somm actually does day to day, because I'm sure a lot of us just have sort of a glamorous image in our minds of trying the best wines in the world, traveling to vineyards. But there's a lot of hard work and a lot more that goes into it.

Victoria James:
Well, I mean, you're not too far off. There are definitely those fun elements as well. But it's a blue collar job. You're in a restaurant on the floor serving wine to 300 people a night. And it's definitely a good workout. And you get to taste all these great wines.

But you're not drinking them because you're working. If I tasted all of them, I would be blacked out by the first. So you spit everything. So as a sommelier, I would smell everything. And sometimes, if I needed to, I would sip it and spit it. But trace amounts do get absorbed. So I was very careful there. But the biggest thing was smell. I don't know why some women have different experiences. But for me, when I was pregnant, I was like a superhero. I was the best sommelier ever. I could smell if a wine was scorched from across the room. It was crazy.

Kerry Diamond:
That's incredible. Did it heighten all your senses?

Victoria James:
It heightened all the senses, both good and bad. So if anyone was wearing cologne in the room, I wanted to kill myself. But no. But it was really amazing. Once during the second trimester, I told one of our sommelier to pour me a flight of wines, what we would call in the industry, an impossible flight so wines that I would not be able to guess because they were somehow atypical. And I guessed every single one right. It was just incredible. So I don't know. I think being pregnant made me a better sommelier.

Kerry Diamond:
That is amazing. Okay. Tell us about COTE. Well, there are multiple restaurants now. What is the restaurant group all about? And what is your role there?

Victoria James:
Yes. So COTE is a Korean steakhouse, that's really the brainchild of Simon Kim who's the proprietor. And, of course, we have not just Simon. We have a whole team of partners who are really great. So we have Chef David Shim who's the chef partner, Tom Brown, who's the director of operations. And we have Chef SK, myself. We also have Amy who does our operations too.

So we have a lot of great partners all involved. But essentially, the idea is that it's melding the traditional Korean barbecue, where you cook on the table, and it's super fun. And it's fire and booze and such, and the classic American New York City steakhouse and combining those two. And we were super lucky. After we opened, we got a Michelin star. We got all this press. And it really allowed us to do cool things. And my role is everything liquid. So I oversee everyone who's on team beverage, sommeliers, bartenders, barbacks, and also the unit beverage managers, but also of course, although wine lists and bar programs and such. So it's really a dream job.

Kerry Diamond:
Is it common for a somm to be a partner in a restaurant group?

Victoria James:
I don't think so. There are a few, for sure. But I was very fortunate that I worked with Simon at his first restaurant, Piora, in the West Village. And we just really worked so well together. And he's so gracious and so kind. And when he was opening up this next restaurant, he wanted to give me a piece of the pie. He's so funny. He gives so much. But he says he gives because he is also greedy.

And what he means by that is that if he gave parts of his business away to different people, he knew that we would treat it like our own, of course, because it is our own. And we have that ownership. And so myself and the other partners really, really pour all of our heart and soul into the restaurant. And so, it was actually a really smart move of his to give a significant pieces of the pie in order for his business to thrive.

Kerry Diamond:
So walk me through the different aspects of COTE. There's COTE in New York. There's COTE Miami. You've got a cocktail bar. Is that in both locations?

Victoria James:
It's called Undercote. It's in New York. There are no basements in Florida, unfortunately. But I don't know.

Kerry Diamond:
Good point.

Victoria James:
But, maybe we'll have, I don't know, a Topcote one day or…

Kerry Diamond:
Topcote. I love it.

Victoria James:
Topcote. I don't know. We'll see. But we're working on a third location now to be determined as to where officially. But I think the concept is so fresh and invigorating. And Simon was sort of one of the first to kind of elevate Korean cuisine in the mainstream and really bring it to the people. And since then, we've seen so many great examples of amazing Korean chefs and restaurateurs coming forward and also living their dream.

Kerry Diamond:
If someone is going to COTE for the first time, what do they absolutely have to order? And what should they pair with it?

Victoria James:
So they absolutely have to order our Butcher's Feast, which is sort of our pre-fee option. It's super affordable. Simon really was passionate about making it still approachable. And although we're a Michelin star, although our reservation fills up a month in the advance, we wanted to make sure that still you could go, even if you're a college student and bring your partner there.

So that's super affordable and delicious. And it comes with all the traditional Korean Banchan and four fabulous cuts of steak. So, of course, you have to drink wine with it. There's nothing better in the whole world to pair with steak than wine. I'm a firm believer in that. And I've tried all of the things. Trust me. So I always get a really great bottle of red, something that's not too rich and overpowering, but like a Rouge is really great.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Good advice. I'm writing that down for when I come visit. All right. Let's talk about this incredible book that you've written. Your memoir, Wine Girl, came out in March, 2020 right in the middle of the... not at the middle of the pandemic, right at the start of the pandemic when no one knew what was going on.

Victoria James:
I know.

Kerry Diamond:
So you've got a lot of folks still discovering this book. Tell us why you wanted to write Wine Girl.

Victoria James:
I wanted to write this book for a long time. It actually was my idea before my first book, which was a really fun whimsical book on rosé. And I talked to my literary agent about the concept about this woman trying to make it an old man's world and kind of talking about all of the sexism and abuse that happens, but also the really beautiful glittering side of wine and why I fell in love with it and how it's so unique.

My literary agent was like, Yeah. That sounds really dark. I don't think that would sell." And this was pre-MeToo also. So no one was talking about these sorts of stories. And she was also like, "I don't know. I mean, you have like a really great career ahead of you." Maybe not.

And so, I kind of just kept working on it and almost therapeutically writing about these experiences. And then all of a sudden, MeToo happened in the restaurant world. The Mario Batali thing happened and all of these different women were coming forward. And my agent called me and said, "Okay. I think we're ready for your book." And I was still pretty nervous. I mean, at that point too, we had coach. The restaurant was doing really well. I was nervous what the other partners would think about the book. And they would even want to continue to work with me.

So, I had them all read at first. And I remember Simon who is just so intelligent and so smart. But he doesn't read a ton of books. He's a very, very busy man. He read it all in like a couple days.

And he asked me not to change a thing, which was really powerful. And he also comes... He's an Asian American and as a Korean man even still, when he goes to a lot of these events, it's a bunch of white French and Italian chefs. And then, there's Simon and Chef David. And so, he really understood what it meant to be on the margins of society and how important it was to talk about these things.

So I finished the book, sold it. It was actually a really crazy story. I sold it to one of our regulars at the restaurant, Daniel Halpern, who is legendary. He was Anthony Bourdain's editor. And when we were putting together the finalized manuscript to send it out to publishers, I asked my agent, "Let's just send it to Daniel Halpern." We're not best friends. But he comes into the restaurant. And we occasionally email about wine.

Maybe he'd be interested. And she said, "Okay. Don't get your hopes up." She's very good at what she does. And she's like a lot of these people come in bright-eyed bushy tailed. But this is Daniel Halpern. So we sent it out on a Friday, the manuscript, and on Monday morning, he called my agent, Allison and said, "We want to preempt the book." So take it off the market before it even goes to auction before any other agent. So it was really why I didn't know that was even possible.

Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Sounds similar to Stephanie Danler's story. Stephanie's the author of Sweetbitter. I'm sure many of you out there have read that book. And I feel like maybe one of the regulars at a Union Square Cafe where she worked was involved in the purchase of that book. I have to look that up.

Victoria James:
Yeah, actually. I believe that's true. And she really wonderful and I love her very much and her writing's great. We actually pitched it as Sweetbitter meets educated in terms of the book. So she's a great inspiration as well.

Kerry Diamond:
That is an excellent description of the book. Tell us about the title, Wine Girl. Why that title?

Victoria James:
So it's sort of a reclamation of this slur I was called as in bring over the Wine Girl, or I suppose they only send over the real sommelier when you spend money. And it kind of was the equivalent of maybe someone saying like, "Hey boy, come over here. Send over the girl." But they wouldn't call any of my male colleagues that, of course. And it was just sort of this theme throughout my career. Even if I started working in fancier places, one Michelin star, two Michelin star restaurants, I still was nothing more than just the Wine Girl. So kind of taking back that and reclaiming that title.

Kerry Diamond:
How do you battle that perception? I mean, there's the aspect of being a woman in this world where some people are more comfortable dealing with men and wine. But the age factor, I mean, I'll be honest if I'm going to get surgery and a 21-year old surgeon walks in, I might want to reschedule my surgery. How did you radiate competence to these people?

Luckily, being a sommelier is brain surgery. But yeah, that's very different. But I think a lot of people can relate to is just starting out in a field and really wanting to be taken seriously and really being diligent and studious and knowing your worth and that you're a smart person and still not being taken seriously.

And that's hard and that's true for, I think, every profession, right. But it was certainly a challenge in wine because I mean, it is literally an old boy's club. It's like this pale male stale club. And it hasn't changed for centuries. So, it really was hard to break into as a young woman. And I remember I would always constantly try myself look older. I saved up money so that I could buy my first perused like Hermes scarf because I saw all the women on the upper East Side wearing those.

Victoria James:
And I just wanted to just look much older always. But, of course, hard to fool many. I think it just takes time and you just have to keep your head down and work really hard. And hopefully, if you can win someone over and speak intelligently and relate to them on a personal level, they'll quickly be on your side.

Kerry Diamond:
So I stayed up late last night. I'm very happy to have coffee right now in front of me. But I stayed up late and re-read your book last night. And the first word that came to mind is harrowing. I had forgotten how harrowing especially the beginning of this book is. And the universe did not hand you an easy breezy life in any way. How was the experience of reliving all of those experiences?

Victoria James:
Yeah. Writing, it was definitely therapeutic in a way to be able to kind of go through it and make sense of it. I think it also gave me a greater sense of empathy to be able to relive some of the moments that my family members that I went through, that friends went through.

But honestly, I mean, Kerry, it didn't really feel real while I was writing it. I just always have kept a diary. So it really didn't feel like, "Oh, this is something that hundreds of people will read." And it wasn't until I recorded the audio book because I also read the audio book that it really hit home. Like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I..." Every paragraph, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I forgot I said that. I can't believe this is going to be out in the world." I mean, some parts, there was one part where I had to run to the bathroom, and I puked and it was so visceral and painful.

Kerry Diamond:
Was it almost like you were in a trance when you wrote it? I mean, sometimes as a writer, I know that had happens.

Victoria James:
It kind of just felt like my safe place. I could say anything here it. There would be no repercussions because it felt like a diary in a way, and maybe a trans, for sure. And I didn't, even once the manuscript was done, I had gone over. And I'd edit it so many times. I just remember spending it. The publisher just not even wanting to reread it. And even when I was working with Daniel Halpern on it, I don't know how to describe it. It didn't feel real until the audio book, and then until it went out in the world, when everyone had an opinion on different parts and things. I was like, "Oh, wow, well, I can't believe I did that. I guess I did."

Kerry Diamond:
I mean, you'll have to tell me if I'm making too much of a leap here. But there are a lot of instances in the book where I feel like you really had to sort of detach yourself and remove yourself mentally from the situation, because they were just so hard and awful. And what you were put through was just excruciating. There's so many words I can use for what you went through. Was it something like that where you just kind of had to detach because it was just so hard what you were sharing on the page?

Victoria James:
Yeah. I mean, there's lots of hard bits. There's lots of parts about abuse, sexism, misogyny. But it wasn't almost like detaching. It was like, I don't know, the first time when you have a painful memory and you relive it for the first time, it's incredibly painful. When you relive it for the second time, it's quite painful. When you relive it for the third time, it's painful. And by the fourth and fifth and sixth and 10th and 12th and 30th time, there's peace there. And I think that's where I eventually got to.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You note in the beginning of the book that you relied on years of your own diaries, your mother's diary, court transcripts, and other matters of record to piece your story together. I was curious, what was it like reading your mother's diary?

Victoria James:
Yeah. That was another world. I know so many parents say this and maybe it is cliche, but you never really understand until you have your own child. And even writing this book, I didn't fully understand what my mom had went through or just the kind of the depth of what it takes to be a parent. And then, I actually became on this past year. And I mean, I had no idea. And I think that to see how much my mom was struggling with depression and she at one point had three children under three, which I can't even... One is so hard. I can't even imagine three, and then also her asking for help struggling with mental illness and not being able to get it, being refused, going through these deep, deep, dark depressive periods where she wouldn't eat for days and lock herself in her room and me trying to connect with her and reading from her perspective, what she was going through.

And it's so funny because, at that time, I remember feeling so alone, even though there was four children at one point and her. And she also felt so alone. And it's so interesting that there were so many of us that we all felt so trapped and so alone. And it just really gave me great empathy and a greater understanding of who she is.

Kerry Diamond:
I just want to stop for a second and say how much I loved your book and how much I admire you, Victoria. And I just feel like you were so brave to do this book for reasons we'll talk about later. The bravery is just really what sits with me after finishing the book. Okay. A few more questions about your life. Your first experiences around alcohol were not positive ones. Can you tell us the casino story?

Victoria James:
Yes. Before saying the casino story, I do have to say, Kerry, the feeling is mutual. I have such admiration for you and for everything you've created that Cherry Bombe. I'm sure people say this. But to give women this platform and this space is really beautiful. So thank you.

Kerry Diamond:
Thanks, Victoria.

Victoria James:
And always been a huge fan. So thank you. But this casino story, so in the book, it goes from my childhood up to working in restaurants and then eventually having my own restaurant. And so, in the beginning of the book, I talk about my childhood, my first experience with alcohol and my father who was a struggling alcoholic at the time. And I was quite young. My siblings and I, we were teenagers. And my father, he had a very addictive personality. And so, he became addicted to gambling as well as drinking. And so, we would sometimes not have to go to school. And he would bring us all down to Atlantic City to the Trump Hotel Casino.

Kerry Diamond:
I laughed when I read that part.

Victoria James:
Yup. Very fitting. Everything was gold, and everything was cheap, and everything would break. But they would send a limo to our house actually to pick us up. And we did not come from means. So that seemed the fanciest thing ever. But there was also this bit of guilt, like how much money is my dad really spending that they're sending this limo for us. And we would get to the casino, and he would just spend all day and all night there.

Sometimes, we wouldn't see him for, I mean, days. And I felt so trapped staying in the hotel room with my siblings. I wanted to be able to do something. And seeing all this money that my father was losing, I couldn't bear to just sit in the hotel room and just watch as we might lose everything in our house.

And so, I had my brother watched my little sister, Lauren. I went down to the casino. And it's a very strange thing for a young girl to go, a teenage girl. And it was before I even had my first job as a diner waitress at 13. So it started when I was really nine or 10 and went up until the late teenage years. We could go down to these casinos.

And so, I wanted to find my father and the kind of talks and sense into him. I don't know what I thought I would do. But he was at that point I quickly discovered at the blackjack table and completely incoherent. He was drinking too much and losing so much money and there was nothing I could do to stop him. So I realized that I kind of had to take things into my own hands. And I realized that all the waitresses at the casinos, I don't know why. They weren't really incentivized to serve people. I'm not sure why.

Kerry Diamond:
They weren't incentivized to provide hospitality.

Victoria James:
Yeah. They didn't really care. I mean, I think that working in a place like that must be quite awful.

Kerry Diamond:
I was going to say, "Yeah." I think you're pretty worn down pretty quick.

Victoria James:
So, someone thought I worked there. There was this guy asked me to get him another drink, maybe because I looked so out of place. And I was a very obedient child. And I said, "Of course." And so, I went to the bar, this lady, and asked her for another cocktail for this guy, bring it to him. And then, he gave me a chip. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I just made money." He just gave me a casino chip, which was a lot of money.

Kerry Diamond:
A chip for $100.

Victoria James:
Yeah which is more money when you're that age. That's like you've won the lottery. And so, then, there was this guy next to him. And he was like, "Oh, I need a refill too." And so, I was essentially just running drinks, and the ladies all thought it was hilarious. They thought it was very cute. And they would actually... I didn't write that too. They actually would also give me chips too. Maybe, they felt bad for me.

Kerry Diamond:
I mean, it's a very darkly comic part of the book.

Victoria James:
Yeah. I mean, even just in retrospect because it seemed so realistic at the time. And so, almost like not a big deal. But now looking back and having my own daughter thinking about like a 10, 11, 12-old-girl doing this in a casino just blows my mind. So I was running drinks. And it kind of was my first ever job. I was the drink girl. I would run people their cocktails and casinos.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay. So clearly, you did not grow up around fine wine. We've more or less established that. Yet, at the age of 21, you somehow managed to become the youngest sommelier in America. I'd love to know how did you fall in love with wine, and how did you become so knowledgeable so fast?

Victoria James:
Yeah, it was through restaurants that I fell in love with wine. I started after being a drink girl at casinos. I got my first job in restaurants at a greasy spoon diner under the railroad tracks in New Jersey at 13. And just really, I was driven mostly monetary to begin. I wanted money. We didn't have any at home. And I wanted sneakers without holes in the bottom. I wanted the cool jeans that all the girls in my class did.

And so, I got a job and quickly realized that I really found my place here. I think Anthony Bourdain talks about this. But the restaurant world is full of misfits and weirdos and pirates and people that don't quite belong in other corners of society. And I really felt like I belonged there, and I loved the people. I loved working with people that were so much older than me. And I just loved it.

So I progressed from diners to bartending during college and, from there, quickly realized your point. I knew nothing about wine. I found this dusty, old copy of wine for dummies behind the register at the bar I was working at and almost did feel like fate like you find this Jumanji book or something.

And so, I opened it. I guess I never realized before that wine was this whole world that it could represent centuries of tradition and people and these incredible wine making practices. And I mean, it blew my mind. To me, wine always seemed quite boring. And, of course, alcohol, I had so many issues with my father and my struggling with my own things. But I didn't realize I could have purpose. And it could be an ingredient and a good meal.

And I fell in love with pairing. And so, I dropped out of college to study wine and become a sommelier, something I knew I wanted to do. As soon as I learned it was even a thing and how to pronounce sommelier, that took a while. But I wanted to become that right away. And so, I just pursued it like a college degree. And when I was 21 became certified as a sommelier. And I remember when I got my pin in my diploma and they're like, wow, you're definitely the youngest in the country by a long shot. And it was just a really wild moment.

Kerry Diamond:
Did you have any idea that you were the youngest?

Victoria James:
I mean, I assume I always was the youngest person in every room. But there are people who have been sommeliers before that are quite young, even in the book I talk about it. Ironically, my husband became one when he was working in Oregon. He was forging for mushrooms and working at a restaurant. And he went in for a position to be a cook at a restaurant.

And they said, "We don't need a cook. But we need a sommelier." And he said, "Well, I'm 20, and I don't know anything about wine." And they said, "That's fine. You'll learn." And this is the Willamette Valley in the early 2000s. So I think people have certainly done it before, but maybe not to the level I did at that time.

Kerry Diamond:
You were part of a group that exposed inappropriate and sexist behavior going on in the world of wine. And it took way longer for the MeToo Movement to reach that world. You write about this a lot in the book. Why do you think that was?

Victoria James:
I think because it's such an old world society even still to this day, even though a lot's changing. It is the definition of an old boys club. And it's elite. It's hard to get into. It costs a lot of money to become a sommelier. You have to try a lot of wine that's very expensive.

The courses are very expensive. And so, it just unfortunately has seemed to be only for a while for this very privileged subset of older white men. And so, it was very hard to break into. And anyone who tried, I felt myself, a lot of other female sommeliers, well, you could get into this industry. But it came at a certain price. And we were constantly sexualized and belittled and abused. And no one really was talking about it. And it's really one of the reasons I was so passionate to write this book because whenever I would talk about this kind sort of stuff happening, everyone would say, "It's not that bad in wine world." Come on. It's not like that. There's no crazy things happening."

Honestly, Kerry, it wasn't until I wrote my book and it came out that this whole thing just exploded. So I remember a couple weeks after the book came out, everyone was home in the pandemic. And they had tons of time to read. And women all over the industry were sending me messages on Instagram and social media. I mean, within a couple of weeks, I received thousands of messages. It was insane. And so, myself and Jane Lopes, who's also a sommelier who I worked with and wrote about in the book and Liz Dowty started compiling all these stories.

And I had worked before with Julia Moskin at the times for another story about a sommelier she wrote. She was trying to for so long proven it wasn't just one bad egg because when she wrote that story about that one specific sommelier in October of 2019, everyone said, "Well, it was one bad egg. Oh, it's just Mario Batali. It's just one person."

But what I was trying to show was that, no, it wasn't one bad egg. It's the entire industry is like this. But she needed more. And so, we collected all these stories. I remember we had this Google document. It was called Operation Girl Power. And we were just collecting everyone's stories. We're not journalists. We're not amazing award-winning New York times journalists like Julia. So we passed this along to her and we said, "Hey, you can do something with this." And she was like, "Yeah, definitely."

And so, she's really wonderful. And she was very thorough. And she spoke with all of these women. Even though there were hundreds, unfortunately, only a few dozen wanted to come forward publicly. But couple dozen was more than enough to show that there was this incredible pattern of abuse and more than just one bad egg.

And so, that happened in November of 2020. This groundbreaking article came out in the New York Times front page of the food section. And many articles Julia wrote after that subsequently. And it changed our industry forever so much so that the entire board resigned. Many of these master sommeliers lost their credentials.

Kerry Diamond:
And when you say the board, you're talking about the court of master sommeliers.

Victoria James:
Yes, exactly. And there's a newborn now. And I'm quite hopeful and I think we're finally seeing real change.

Kerry Diamond:
Well, I can't thank you and all of those women enough because it is not easy to come forward. But you all did it. And you have changed the wine world. And you're also doing your part to change world of fine dining. I mean, that world has so many problems and issues as well. And you write about that in the book. I'm curious, what have you put into place at COTE? So is to improve life for the staff, so is not to repeat some of the things that you've gone through in the world of wine, in the world of fine dining.

Victoria James:
Yeah. That was super important for me that the restaurant that we have is the exact opposite of everything we grew up in. And luckily, everyone who works at the company is very open to that. And Simon and the other partners really, really, it's important to them. So it's also great we have so many women in positions of power.

So at our restaurant, the director of operations, Amy Zhou, who's also a partner and then Cynthia Chang who's our HR amazing leader. We all three are also the founders of Wine Empowered. Our 501(c)(3) nonprofit that offers tuition free wine classes to women and people of color and hospitality. And so, the three of us were all very passionate about this inclusivity and making a safe space. So at the restaurant COTE specifically, Amy came up with this really great system that's color coded. And essentially, it's red, yellow, and green.

We call it like a code blue. If anyone ever feels uncomfortable, they just call this code blue. They're instantly removed from the situation. A Manager goes in and determines if the guest was being inappropriate, if they're being any sort of protected class, if they're being sexist, racist, et cetera. That's full stop. Hospitality ends as soon as that happens, and you leave the restaurant. And you have a security person that can escort you out. It's just really important to us that there is zero tolerance for any kind of that behavior. And we still do that to this day. And the most important thing is people in protecting. We are responsible for our staff. And so it was really important to us that there is zero tolerance for any sort of behavior like this.

Kerry Diamond:
Victoria, you mentioned Wine Empowered. Can you tell us more about that and how people can participate?

Victoria James:
Yeah. So Wine Empowered offers free wine education to people in hospitality that are full of color or women. And for us, it was really important to us that the people who are on the margins of this society of this old boys club that we bring them inside and give them ... The biggest barrier is, of course, education. As I mentioned, it's incredibly expensive.

And also, it just doesn't feel inclusive when I was going through these schools and these programs. I was oftentimes the only woman in the room. And I know how that feels, and it doesn't feel good. And it doesn't feel as if you really get the full education opportunity. And so, if someone wants to be a part of this, you can follow from Instagram @WineEmpowered. We're opening up applications this year for the next class as well. So if you do fit the criteria, please do think of applying.

Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about something fun. You just launched a glassware collaboration with Lenox, the legendary tabletop company. How did this come about?

Victoria James:
Yeah. Lenox approached me pre-pandemic a few years ago to create this stemware series. They had seen some interview I had done, and they just loved my story and wanted me to be a part of this new line. And I was incredibly honored. I mean, Lenox, they were the first ever tabletop company to design China for President Woodrow Wilson. They've done four presidents since then. They have an incredible history. And I was incredibly honored. And I didn't want to just launch a product line. It's not really my thing, unless it was something I could really have complete control over.

And so, we came up with this agreement. And they've just been so wonderful. It took us years to design talking to different scientists and other wine professionals. And I'm really happy with what we finally came up with.

Kerry Diamond:
So this was years in the making

Victoria James:
Years in the making. Yes.

Kerry Diamond:
And thank you. I will call it stemware from now on. I've used the term glassware. I stand corrected. Before we talk about the glasses, I do want to say for transparency's sake, Lenox is an advertiser. I just want everyone to know that. But I was so happy to learn about this collaboration because a lot of people are afraid to speak up the way you did for fear of losing sponsorships and industry support. But Lenox wasn't scared off by you speaking your truth. I think that's amazing.

Victoria James:
They are an amazing company. And I think one of the reasons they wanted to work with me is because I wanted to stand up for what I believe in. And that's their value as well. A lot of women are very uncomfortable about coming forward because they think they will lose their sponsors, their jobs and-

Kerry Diamond:
Right. Their livelihood.

Victoria James:
... their livelihood. I wish I could stand here and say, "Oh, don't worry about that." It all works out in the end because to be honest with you, it actually doesn't sometimes. And for some women, they do lose everything. And that's really unfortunate and terrible. But that's also why if you are in a position of power where you can speak up, you have to.

And for me, I was the only that I knew of at the time, I was the only female sommelier that was also a partner at a Michelin starred restaurant that had this power. And I couldn't just easily be fired and my partners were on board. Not everyone has that.

And it's why it's so important that if you can speak up, you should, because I do empathize. And when we are going through this New York Times article in this process, so many women did drop out because even some of their employers threatened them and told them that if they went forward, they would lose their job and they have children, they have families. So yeah. It still happens. It's not easy. So if you can speak up, please do. But if you can't, hopefully, us sharing our stories will change the industry for everyone else.

Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Well, thank you again to Lenox. All right. Educate me, Victoria. Tell me about the stemware.

Victoria James:
Yeah. The stemware, again, I'm really excited about. They're beautiful. Also, Lenox and have had been around for so long, over 130 years that they have these really, really great relationships with our manufacturers.

So they were able to produce these glasses that were light and ethereal but are super competitive in terms of pricing if you compare them to Zalto and Riedels, they're really half the price of those, which was important to me because I'm about making things approachable to everyone. And that was very, very important to me.

So it's super simple. There are two glasses, one for warmer regions, one for cooler regions. And why I chose not to do something that was great variety specific or maybe red wine, white wine specific, it's interesting because this is kind of a secret to sommeliers. But for some reason, not a lot of consumers in mainstream. The most important thing about wine, more important than anything else is where it comes from.

And there's this mystic notion called terroir in the wine world that is essentially the core of what a wine is, what shapes it, the sunshine, of course the weather, the people, the slope, the soil. All of these things make a wine what it is. It's why Bordeaux doesn't taste like a Burgundy, doesn't taste like a German Riesling, a Barolo because they all have this sense of terroir.

But if you want to get super geeky, I can make 500 wine glasses. And you can… one for every region in the world. But that's not what I'm about. So I wanted to simplify. So what are the two things that really separate everything? It's cooler regions and warmer regions, because in cooler regions, you have elevated levels of acidity. You have lower levels of alcohol, body and richness. And you sometimes have much more delicate aromas.

In warmer regions to oversimplify, you have usually higher levels of alcohol and body and richness, more ripeness, sometimes much more overt aromatics and sometimes lower acidity. So separating these two in the two camp simplifying it, let the somm do the work. Essentially, these two glasses are for everything, red, white, rosé, sparkling. It's all you need on your table. And they're also beautiful.

Kerry Diamond:
They are very beautiful. And this will make you laugh. I don't know how in the world this happened. But I opened where I have all my glasses. And I literally had no wine glasses in there. I think I brought them to some Cherry Bombe event and never brought them back.

Victoria James:
Oh my gosh.

Kerry Diamond:
So I've been drinking wine out of these little tumblers that I have. And I have these coops that were my grandmother's. Some of them were broken over the years. So I'm down to three of them. We've been talking to you and Lenox about this project. I was like, "Oh my God. I'm so happy," because I need to order Victoria's wine glasses. But they really are so beautiful. It is true that somms don't love drinking sparkling out of flutes?

Victoria James:
Yeah. It's a fun fact actually. Flutes are great because they do preserve the bubbles. There's less surface area, less exposure to oxygen. So the bubbles really last for longer. So if you want your wine extra bubbly for a longer period of time, then maybe flutes are your go-to option.

However, for me, champagne's expensive. And so, if you buy a bottle, you really want to appreciate it. And the only way to do that is to be able to really smell it. 90% of taste is actually smell. I don't know if you've tried to put your nose into a flute and swirl. But it is impossible. You'll get some everywhere up your nose maybe. And so, the best thing is always a wine glass with an actual bowl in it. And if you go to the champagne region, we'll actually serve it in this as well. So yeah, I prefer the wine glass. But there's a time and place for everything.

Kerry Diamond:
So I'm a big rosé drinker during the warmer months. Which glass do I drink? My rosé out of?

Victoria James:
So, Kerry, I'm a huge rosé fan. My first book was on rosé. And I just absolutely love it. It's the best thing ever. Also, fun fact, if you go to a restaurant and you don't want to spend a lot of money. But it's still got a high quality, you can get rosé.

Kerry Diamond:
Oh good tip.

Victoria James:
Always going to be much more affordable sometimes. There's crazy exceptions. But anyway, what glass to drink your rosé out of? So the cool thing about my summer is that there's cool region and warm region. So if you're drinking a rosé from the Loire Valley in France, that's going to be a cooler region. If you're drinking a Napa Valley rosé, that's going to be warmer. And you want in that glass.

It's funny, actually, the first book I did on rosé, I did a test. So I blindfolded a group of master sommelier wine buyers at John George and Danielle, and I had them try and tell the difference between red, white, and rosé. And none of them could tell the difference-

Kerry Diamond:
Really?

Victoria James:
... which is crazy. So color only matters to a certain extent. It really is the structure of a wine, the acid, alcohol, body sweetness and tannin that matters the most. And that is what is developed by climate.

Kerry Diamond:
That's a fun test.

Victoria James:
Yeah. You have everything. And some people are also like, "Well, I don't know if the wine I'm drinking is from a warm region or a cool region." I don't really know what does this count as.

Kerry Diamond:
We'll just share your phone number. And so they can text you when they're-

Victoria James:
My phone number. They can text me. But also, I mean, just trying to build glasses. We did that the other night here at COTE Miami. And we poured in Albariño from Spain because one of the sommeliers were like, "Well, this kind of could be cool region. This kind of could be warm region." And we tried it. And it was infinitely more delicious in the cool region glass, I mean, infinitely. We asked a random person who didn't even work on our wine team, which wine glass did you want to drink out of. And they're like, "This one, for sure," because it just makes the wine smell so much better.

Kerry Diamond:
That is so interesting. Okay. And I'm asking this question for a friend. Is it ever acceptable to put an ice cube in your rosé?

Victoria James:
So I actually did this the other day. On Sunday, we went to the beach here. And the rosé they served was super, super hot. So I put an ice cube in it. The best thing is just to stir around, take it out. Yes, it does change the wine. It, of course, waters it down. But sometimes, it is a necessary evil.

Kerry Diamond:
Okay. You wouldn't stop talking to someone just because they did that.

Victoria James:
No.

Kerry Diamond:
How about the Piscine, classic French champagne with an ice cube in it? Is that sacrilegious?

Victoria James:
Well, it's not sacrilegious, Kerry. But I don't know if you want to know the story. I might ruin it for you about how it came about. Oh, Piscine actually was created, went to the South of France. And the height of leisure became a thing. And people were just drinking gobs of rosé in mass quantities.

And in order to save money and make more money, they started buying really, really cheap, inexpensive rosé that wasn't high quality. And fun fact, actually, the colder wine is, the more you can't taste it. So that's why if you drink a wine ice cold, it actually masks all of the inferior qualities and all of like those things that just give you a headache the next day. And so, they would serve it ice cold in this Piscine because it tastes way more delicious. And if you drink that same wine at like the proper temperature, you would vomit.

Kerry Diamond:
Got it.

Victoria James:
So, that's why it became so fun.

Kerry Diamond:
Well, it's fun to say. And it's cute when it comes out in the coop and there's an ice cube. But, yeah. Okay. I won't order that ever again. Okay, Victoria, let's do the speed round. We always ask treasured cookbook. But I thought for you, it could also be a treasured beverage book.

Victoria James:
Well, I have one that's both actually, and it is really treasured. I think it's out of print. It's not mine. It's my husband's. But I try to steal it as much as possible. It's called Ten Vineyard Lunches by Richard Olney. And I am a huge Olney fan. I absolutely adore him. And he was friends with all the culinary elite.

He dated James Baldwin. He had for lunch, MFK Fisher and Julia Child and James Beard and Elizabeth David over for lunch all the time. So I love that one. And then, he also did another book called Lulu's Provencal Table, which is about Lulu Peyraud from Domaine Tempier and I think also out of print.

But honestly, it reminds me about why I got into wine. And I share some of these stories in the book. My book is not all dark and depressing. There's some fun scenes as well. And it's really why I love wine. It's the sense of place and its people. And it's this magic ingredient that can bring people together.

Kerry Diamond:
Song that makes you smile.

Victoria James:
A song that makes me smile. I will have to say, well, Lyle and I for our wedding song, we had Sam Cooke's Wonderful World. So that always makes me smile when it comes on.

Kerry Diamond:
Last pantry purchase.

Victoria James:
I'm addicted to salt, full blown addiction. And so, I always have to have a little Maldon salt in my bag. And we just got to the apartment here in Miami, the corporate company apartments, and there was no salt. So we ran out, and we had to buy some Maldon.

Kerry Diamond:
Do you have one of those Maldons in the little slide container? Yeah. I have one of those.

Victoria James:
Yes. Also, because we're in Miami, I brought that out the other day and someone did not think of a salt. They thought it was something else.

Kerry Diamond:
I could see that happening. Okay. Favorite kitchen tool.

Victoria James:
Favorite kitchen tool. My favorite food is eggs. I think it's the most perfect food. And so I have this amazing tool that my husband got for me that cracks the egg in the egg cobbler perfectly. So you can remove the top and have the perfect soft, boiled egg.

Kerry Diamond:
Nice. Favorite food smell.

Victoria James:
There's nothing better than fresh citrus. When you're peeling an orange in that fresh citrus smell, it's transporting.

Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?

Victoria James:
I mean I love reading. But I also love cinema. I love television and movies. I just love all things. We recently watched a couple nights ago this Argentinian film from 2014 called Wild Tales, which tell sort of different stories of revenge. And it's sort of magical realism. And I loved it. So, highly recommend.

Kerry Diamond:
Dream travel destination.

Victoria James:
Definitely something not wine related because I feel like I'm always going to wine regions, which is beautiful too. But Madagascar. I'm also a huge fan of butterflies. I would be a lepidopterist if I wasn't a sommelier. And studying the different species of butterflies is one of my passions. And that's where the largest population of different types of butterflies live. So I would go there.

Kerry Diamond:
And last question, if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?

Victoria James:
Well, so cliche. I would also say Richard Olney because I know that he would bring all of the Illuminati of the food and wine world. So, I do want to hang out also with Julie Child and MFK Fisher and Craig Claiborne, and Elizabeth David and James Baldwin and such. So I know he would also bring all the hot gossip as well and cook these amazing feasts, and we would drink this amazing wine. And we would forge together, and it would be great.

Kerry Diamond:
I love it. Well, Victoria, I also love you. I'm just filled with so much admiration for you. And I can't thank you enough for everything you've done for women and for this industry and for taking the time to talk with me today.

Victoria James:
Thank you so much for your time.

Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Victoria James for joining me. Pick up a copy at Victoria's memoir, Wine Girl, at your favorite bookstore. And you can learn more about her wine glasses at lenox.com. And if you're in New York or Miami, check out COTE restaurant.

Thank you to Luke's Lobster and American Unagi for sponsoring today's episode. Use promo code Cherry15 for 15% off all products at lukeslobster.com through March 31st. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band, Tralala. Thank you, Joseph Hazan studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. And thank you to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. And thanks to you for listening. You are the bombe.