Ayesha Nurdjaja and Vicki Freeman Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Each week, we talk to the coolest culinary personalities around. The folks shaping and shaking up the food scene. Today's guests are restaurateur, Vicki Freeman and chef Ayesha Nurdjaja. The dynamic duo behind Shukette, the hot new Middle Eastern restaurant they last year in Manhattan.
The Cherry Bombe team and I went there last week for a Jubilee weekend guest chef dinner, featuring Ayesha and Eden Grinshpan of Eden Eats, and it was a blast. It's hands down one of my favorite places to eat in New York City. Vicki and Ayesha talk about what it's like being an overnight success, when you've been in the industry for decades. Stay tuned for my chat with these two warm, dynamic humans.
Today's episode is sponsored by Mommenpop. In the spring and summer, there is nothing I love more than a spritz. If you are the same, you need to know about Mommenpop. The aperitif brand made a Napa California by winemaker, Samantha Sheehan, with peak season, local, organic citrus and Chardonnay. Trust me when I tell you Mommenpop is going to be your new favorite spritz ingredient. Mommenpop contains no added sugar, flavors, or colorings. The vibrant color and subtle sweetness come from the fruit itself.
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A little housekeeping, I just want to thank everyone who made Jubilee so magical the other weekend from our speakers to our sponsors, volunteers, to all of you who attended our conference, it was such a special Jubilee this year. I haven't listened to the Jubilee recordings yet, but if all the recordings sound okay, we're going to share them on future episodes of Radio Cherry Bombe. Our speakers dropped a lot of wisdom last weekend, and I would love for you to hear what they had to say.
What else? Our new issue is out, issue 19. It's all about entrepreneurs, and we celebrate lots of them in this issue of our print magazine, including our cover star Sana Javeri Kadri of Diaspora Co. You can pick up a copy at your favorite local bookstore or magazine shop, like Kitchen Arts & Letters here in Manhattan or Omnivore Books on Food in San Francisco, or you can purchase one through cherrybombe.com.
Issue 19, by the way, is the first issue I did not edit. Cherry Bombe's Audrey Payne edited this issue, and worked with all of our contributors and she did a beautiful job. Thank you so much to Audrey. Now let's check in with today's guests.
Vicki, Ayesha, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Thank you.
Vicki Freeman:
Thank you, we are so excited to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
This is so exciting. I am so thrilled to talk to you two, because there's a lot of ground to cover. But I thought we'd start with how you two met.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I left A Voce to go work in a restaurant called Red Gravy in downtown Brooklyn.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I remember Red Gravy.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
And I was ready to leave and I spoke to Missy, and she said, "You have to talk to these people." And I said, "Who are these people?" And she said, "Vicki and Marc Meyer." And I said, "Why?" Because I was cooking Italian for so long, and Vic's was already Italian concept. And I said, "You don't need me." And she said, "Just talk to them. Just see what they're about." So I said, "Okay." And Marc had given me a call and I remember being Prospect Park, and I'm not a park kind of person. I have no idea why I was there. And I remember not being able to truly understand what he was saying on the phone. And I said, "I think it's just best we meet in person." So he said, "Okay."
And we met at the High Line Hotel, and the three of us sat down and I would say we were there for about two hours. We never spoke about the restaurant. We never really spoke about, I don't know, the restaurant business. It was just kind of like a meet and greet to get to know one another. And when I left there, I was like, "They're good people."
Vicki Freeman:
I think we believe so much in fit for the company, that that's why a lot of our interviews are not as so much, like, "What's your favorite dish to make?" You know what I mean? There's a bigger picture thing. So we just instantly felt a connection with her.
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like I should turn the interview over to you. If you were interviewing me to join your company, what's a question you would throw at me.
Vicki Freeman:
Where do you like to go out to eat?
Kerry Diamond:
That's a good question, everywhere.
Vicki Freeman:
I think you can tell a lot, because-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I think it's a great question. Because I first, we interview a lot of people now, but initially when I first sat down with Vicki, I was like, "Wow, that's so true, because you can find out a lot about someone." Because if someone says to you, what's your favorite restaurant? And they say, "Le Bernadin," it's a hard thing-
Kerry Diamond:
I'm going to think you're fancy.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Right. But it's also, it's okay to say that, but we want to know where you eat like on the every day. What are the local businesses? Or the local restaurants? What's your flavor for your neighborhood?
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me how The Bowery Group came to be.
Vicki Freeman:
It started with the first restaurant we owned, which was actually at the time, just my husband and me. And it was called Five Points. And in my mind, then, I was going to open one restaurant. That's all we were ever going to have. Never was that person that was like, "Every year we're going to open new restaurant. We're going to do this or we're going to do that." I was like, "One is great." Except for that, we also took on another partner, which is still our partner. Someone named Chris Paraskevaides, because he had worked for someone named Steve Hanson for 18 years. And he had all the systems that I had none of.
So we were like, it was a perfect combination, but at some point we realized, for me, it was very stressful actually owning one restaurant. Because we all had kids, and we'd have a slow night, and I'm like, "That's it, our kids are going to go hungry, we're never feeding them again." And there was also many things we wanted to do. So that was sort of the beginning. But Ayesha, who was this amazing Italian chef, who came to work for us at a Hundred Acres, which had been open at that point for seven years?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yeah. Eight, I think it was.
Vicki Freeman:
Eight.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yep.
Vicki Freeman:
And was, I don't know what you want to call it, some combination of-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Traumatized.
Vicki Freeman:
Some combination of Mediterranean and Southern, and we just wanted her in the company. And so we were sort of like, that-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
It was fried chicken and waffles, etouffee, biscuits with chive butter, all good delicious, skate wing with succotash, and I'd never cooked anything like that. And thank God when I got there, there was a sous chef, his name is Jonathan Milan. He was moving to California, but I said, Jonathan, you cook and I'm going to clean. I just had to acclimate to the space and to everything, but it had, there's Rosie's.
Vicki Freeman:
Oh, and then Rosie's, but we turned a Hundred Acres into Shuka, and our newest project is Shukette, which is on 24th and Ninth. And that's our brand new baby.
Kerry Diamond:
Vicki, how did you fall into the restaurant business?
Vicki Freeman:
I really feel like I've been in my entire life. My parents were very into food and restaurants, and we probably ate out four to five nights a week.
Kerry Diamond:
No way.
Vicki Freeman:
I grew up in the West Village.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Vicki Freeman:
And I grew up next to Mario's Italian Restaurant was sort of like our home. And then when I was 15 years old, I got my first job at Bob's Big Boy. And I thought it was the greatest thing in the world, even though it was just horrible. And I wore a plastic uniform with nurse's shoes and a hairpiece, and I worked... I will remember this-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Are there photos of this?
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. A plastic uniform, you have to...
Vicki Freeman:
I don't know how to explain it. It was like striped, but I don't know what it was made out of, but it was like stiff plastic thing.
Kerry Diamond:
I have visions of like a shower curtain.
Vicki Freeman:
It was hideous.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
In like a Girl Scout-
Kerry Diamond:
Did you just hose off when you went home?
Vicki Freeman:
Well, that was a point of it. You could just like wipe it down.
Kerry Diamond:
Yuk.
Vicki Freeman:
It was so disgusting.
Kerry Diamond:
But wait, four to five nights a week, that's a lot. I was one of five kids. So I think it's hard to pack five kids up and-
Vicki Freeman:
Right, and it was just-
Kerry Diamond:
... take them to restaurants.
Vicki Freeman:
It was me and my brother. I have a stepbrother and sister who added on, on the weekends.
Kerry Diamond:
Did your parents not cook? Is that why you went out so much?
Vicki Freeman:
My mom actually was a really good cook. It's just, I think no one wanted to do the dishes or I don't know what it was. And we really loved restaurants. I mean really I've loved restaurants... Crazy stories of going to like cheese tastings at a young age. And I don't know, they were ridiculous. I definitely knew good mozzarella from bad mozzarella, and-
Kerry Diamond:
As a kid?
Vicki Freeman:
As a kid.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow, you got hooked.
Vicki Freeman:
It's really snobby. It sounds snobby, but there was a passion to it.
Kerry Diamond:
Ayesha, how did you fall into the restaurant world?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I grew up with a great appreciation for food and my mother is probably one of the best cooks or chefs that I've ever known. Anything that she touches is gold. I've cooked the same recipe side by side with her, and throw my food in the garbage, because I'm like, "Doesn't taste like yours, and I'm just frustrated." She uses a paring knife and paper plates because she skeeves cutting boards. She says, "No amount of salt and lemon is going to take out the skeevy things on there." She's Italian, she's half [Napolitan 00:09:29], half [Calabrese 00:09:30], and she's second generation Italian.
Growing up, we ate like three course dinners. They weren't fancy, they were family style, but we hardly repeated anything. We probably wanted to repeat, she made this meatloaf thing that had mashed potatoes on top with smoked paprika, and then she would put it in, the ovens had the broiler on the bottom, and then we'd get like nice and crispy on top. She had so many signature dishes. Me and my brother. Always, now, it's like, "Ma, can you make this? Can you make that?" And she's like, "I can't believe you guys remember that stuff."
Kerry Diamond:
So your mom's a great cook.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
My dad was a chef.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, your dad was a chef. Okay, now we're now we're getting to it. Your dad was a chef.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
He was a chef on a ship that transported liquid natural gas from America to Asian countries. He was home for four months and away for four months, which works wonders when your home, but in a marriage is terrible, obviously, when you have two small children. So my parents divorced when I was 12, but they were the best of friends. I really had an amazing childhood and they would out cook each other. It was like Chopped every night.
I moved out when I was 19, and I was watching Lidia Bastianich on television. And I would watch your cook and her hands and something about how simple she would hold a pepper, and then like 10 minutes later, she's got some onions and garlic, and then some rices in the thing. She's like pulling apart mozzarella, cutting basil, and then mixing it together. And here's your stuffed pepper. And there was something about watching her. And I said, "I want to try that."
So I started to cook. And I realized that there was something about cooking that was very centering and soulful for me. Where I had not cooked as a child or throughout my childhood, because my parents were in their own game. They didn't need any more players. I enrolled in culinary school and I worked at Felidia.
Kerry Diamond:
Was your goal, I'm going to work for-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
... Lidia.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
When I saw her on television, I was like, "I'm going to work for this woman."
Kerry Diamond:
Felidia's one of Lidia Bastianich's places.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yes. Her signature restaurant.
Kerry Diamond:
You decided to stay in Italian food.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I did.
Kerry Diamond:
That was your thing.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yeah. I had a very big love affair with flour and water. And how just simple... I think it came like 360 for me with the simplicity part of it. Because the food at Felidia wasn't simple, but the ingredients were really straightforward. And when you use high quality ingredients, you don't really have to do a lot to them. And I think that as my career went, I learned other things. I worked for Terrance Brennan at Picholine. I wanted to learn French and stuff like that. And then how I ended up in the Middle East is a whole other story.
Kerry Diamond:
Right, we have to talk about that. We should jump ahead to Shukette, because it is such a sensation. And you two have worked so hard. How does it feel at this point in your careers to have an overnight success?
Vicki Freeman:
I always say this, you open something thinking it's good. Nobody opens anything going, "Oh, this is sort of mediocre. I hope it works." I mean, I so believe in Ayesha. When we did this project for Ayesha, I mean, for all of us, but it was about her, her food. And I just so believed in it. But in saying that, never in my wildest ever dream, did I think it was going to take off the way it took off. It was, we were supposed to open in March of 2020. We had food. We had people we were training. We had staff, and we're getting ready, we're ready. And we know what happens. So we get shut down. And the restaurant itself is, A...
The idea behind the restaurant was a lot of our travels being in Israel, we really wanted the sense of community and tightness. And you're sitting with your neighbor and you're sitting right across from the cooks. There's just that feeling of connection and community and all this stuff, except for in a pandemic. We open literally the worst pandemic restaurant anybody could ever open. So we sat there going, now what? Because there's not enough plastic. We'd have to wrap everybody in plastic. There was no six feet of separation, right? There was none. You know what I mean.
Kerry Diamond:
No, it's very intimate at Shukette.
Vicki Freeman:
Very intimate. And none of that was... It just wasn't. So there's no point in opening up a semi-Shukette. We have to open up the Shukette, that Shukette was meant to be. And that was really, really important to us, whenever time it took, however long it took. So by the time we finally did open, I think it was a combination of everything. I mean, number one, I think it's her food. Number two, I think it's a super fun place to be. And I think that with everybody feeling sad and so much stuff, to walk into a place every night that feel so full of joy, I think really propelled it to what happened to it.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
And I think when we opened people were excited to eat out. We had a very strong vision, and I'm really glad that we didn't do like a two point five version of Shukette. We talked about, it's very hard to have a restaurant that's dormant for a year, whether you're getting a break or not on rent, there's still bills to be paid. Every day would be like, "How could we do this? Should we just do lunch? Should we just do breakfast? Should we make it into a coffee shop? Should we do food to go only?" And there was something very special, there was like an underlying energy, always in that space for us that we knew that when we opened the door, that it was going to be special. Never, never, ever thinking that it would be as magical as I feel that it is, but we knew that it was going to be special.
Vicki Freeman:
I also think one thing, we both separately together had very strong vision. And maybe even in another year of getting to even make that vision stronger, and talk about it all the time. And I think there was something, to me, a little bit of the magic happened in us coming together like that.
Kerry Diamond:
Walk us through the space. Tell everybody, for those who haven't been there, what the spaces like.
Vicki Freeman:
It's one rectangular space, and the kitchen probably takes up 75%. Then on the other side of it, with the narrowest walkway, the fact that we have all figured out, I don't even... When we first opened, I was like, "This is going to just never work," because you have to like stand back. And sometimes you're almost leaning against the guests there as you're trying to make room for all the people running food, and doing all the things. But, as in most things, I don't think about it anymore. You know what I mean? We all have a rhythm, we just move around each other. But on the other side are some booths, and in the back, are a couple of other tables against the wall. And then there's outside seating.
Kerry Diamond:
Are you surprised that you have become kind of chef famous in New York for something that's not Italian food?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Yes and no. I think,, yes, because I mean, famous is a great word, but I think it really is about like soul. I put my heart and my soul every day in the cooking, and I don't do it for the accolades and I'm so grateful for whatever it has come my way, and will come my way. But I really love to cook. I love the restaurant. I love the restaurant business. So for all the good and the bad. I used to tell people, "I have great days and really, really bad ones. But at the end of the day, I feel lucky, because I get to do what I love to do. And not many people can."
The menu at Shukette is definitely, people always say, "What's the difference between Shuka and Shukette?" And it's easy and hard at the same time to answer. I would say the breads of the star of the show at Shukette. We make five different breads daily, who doesn't love a carb in olive oil and garlic.
Kerry Diamond:
Garlic. Oh, the garlic.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
The garlic. And it's very market driven with what comes in, when I'm at the Greek market. We change it pretty frequently. There are some staples. I mean, we're only not open a year yet, but Fish in a Cage was a hit when we opened it.
Kerry Diamond:
Gosh, it's not even a year, yet.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
No, July. The thing about Shukette that I love the most is I have... When Shukette was born, a different part of me was born, and it came with this freedom of that, I don't feel like I have to have anything on the menu. And there's something to be said about that. Because when you create a menu, you start thinking about people. You start thinking like you have... I remember when I met Vicki and Marc, and I started to gain their trust at Hundred Acres. They said, "You have to have a chicken and you have to have a steak."
So when we made Shukette's menu, we had a chicken and a steak, but I did it the way that I wanted to do it.
Kerry Diamond:
Which is?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Oh, we marinate the chicken. It's half chicken. We marinate it with saffron and yogurt for three days, lots of dill and garlic, and then it's grilled and served with toum, the fluffy garlic sauce and shata. It's just juicy. It's got the char marks from the charcoal. And the steak is, right now, served almost like a sandwich. It's going a lafa on the bottom with some pickled cabbage, the white sauce and sumac onions and parsley. But that's what I feel like every day there, I just feel like I'm cooking with such freedom to create, and without restraint.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us the Shuka/Shukette connection.
Vicki Freeman:
Well, the biggest thing is Ayesha's the chef and partner of both of them, so that is definitely a connection. But I'll tell a little bit of a funny story about how Shuka came about. So Ayesha was the chef at Hundred Acres, making this food that she had never really made before. And all of a sudden she started putting up these Middle Eastern dishes. And this was never, maybe you can tell the story, I don't think it was ever in her, like, "I'm going to be a Middle Eastern chef." It's just like, she just had, there was just something that she was feeling, would make it, and I was like, "Wait a minute, what is going on here?" Because they were spectacular.
And finally, that New Year's Eve, we were like, which made no sense at Hundred Acres, we decided to do a Night in Morocco. So that whole night we just did a feast and everybody would come at big tables and just food would be coming out. I mean, I think you did 40 different dishes that night.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
37 dishes.
Vicki Freeman:
37 dishes that night.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I don't know how many people ate to 37, because I'm sure they didn't get them all.
Vicki Freeman:
And it was magic. And we sort of just went, "What are we doing?" So we shut down Hundred Acres, and redid it a bit and opened up Shuka. And it was, the first week of Shuka was dead as a doornail. And I thought, "Okay, we..." Because it wasn't that a Hundred Acres ash doing particularly horribly, you know what I mean? It wasn't anything, what Shuka is now, but it was okay. And so we sat there and it was like crickets. So I was like, "Oh, this is really, really interesting." And I don't know if it was day, I don't want to sound too biblical, day seven. No, but I don't know what day it was. All of a sudden they started to come and never stopped. And I mean, it's just been way beyond whatever we thought we would do in that space.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow.
Vicki Freeman:
And it's been busy ever since then.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
My mother grew up in Cobble Hill, on Strong Place, which is a very small block, before it was what it is now. And the four generations of my family were basically born and raised in this one brownstone. My grandmother did not really believe in refrigeration and getting things, she would shop every day. And when I was a little kid, we just to go to Sahadi's and get a ticket, and she'd let me take some treats. And then she'd be like, "Taste this," and it was a grape leaf. She was an adventurous woman. And then we'd go to Damascus and share a chicken shawarma.
And when I was all enough to eat out, I always loved Middle Eastern food. And I think what I love about it is the meze and the convivial style of eating, and that non-conforming coursing, where you are subjected to your own appetizer and your own entree. And it's more of this, what I call now, the rip and dip, and where everybody is sharing and getting to taste everything. I was traveling to the Middle East and I just really started to get into the cooking and the reading of the books and the culture. And I was like, "I really want to do this." So it's all been learned.
Kerry Diamond:
I love how much your childhood's informed what you both do now. Like you with Lidia and going to Sahadi's, and then you going out with your parents and working at Bob's Big Boy. For all you parents out there, it's amazing what you expose your kids to now. You have no idea the ramifications.
Vicki Freeman:
That's very true.
Kerry Diamond:
So having a hit brings its own set of challenges. What are you having to deal with that you never anticipated?
Vicki Freeman:
Listen, is it so great that everyone wants a reservation? It's so great. But sometimes I get emails or something, and you've been to the restaurant, a lot of them are for parties of 12 and 14 and 17. And we just can't, there is no table. There's no nothing. You've seen it, it's all booths. There's nowhere to put even that kind, if we wanted to put that kind of a thing. And people get upset, and they'll think that like, "Oh, you're just trying to be special," or, "You don't want..." I want everyone to eat my restaurants. There's never a part of me that wants to ever be like, "Yeah, we can't fit you." Come, we want every single person to come. So that part is hard, sometimes I'm saying no and not making it seem like we're just saying, no, to say, no. It's, literally, "I can't, there's nowhere to put you."
Kerry Diamond:
Have you developed a tough skin over the years? I had the thinnest skin when I owned restaurants. I just felt like I was letting people down left and right.
Vicki Freeman:
Yeah. I have not. Not only that, but if someone comes in for some reason to any of the rest strengths and writes a bad Resi... There was a while where I couldn't read anything. I told my managers, "You have to read them and tell me what we need. If there's something constructive that we can fix or we can do something." But I hate to say it after all these years, maybe you're different, but after all these years, I still have a very thin skin.
Kerry Diamond:
Maybe thin skin is the wrong term. It's just, you put your heart into these project and it's just like a knife wound, when you read those reviews.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I've learned to accept that people don't understand what you do and what goes into it. And I think maybe sometimes I compartmentalize it. The past, I have my own little speaker system where I listen to my own music, because sometimes the people sitting right in front of you, and they take a fork and they flick the garlic off the thing, and I'm like, Ooh, that hurts. That hurts me. Or someone would say something, like they don't like anything. And there are times I think that you could go to your thick skin and be like, "Okay, I need the courage just to pass by this point." But there's a lot of heart and soul that go into things. And I could definitely understand that people don't like things, but I think that's sometimes the way that it's said, maybe, the delivery.
Kerry Diamond:
Ayesha, what are the challenges for the kitchen when you've got a place that's such a hit?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Staffing. I thought when we got reviewed by Pete Wells, that the resumes were going to become flying in like paper airplanes. I mean, I remember when I was younger and looking for jobs or people talking about like any of the new hot restaurants, everybody wants to apply. But I think the pool is not as saturated as it used to be. And there's talent out there, for sure. I don't know where they're working and if they're happy, I'm grateful for that. Because they do think a lot of what I've learned is I can't hire people just to hire people. They have to love what they do. And especially in an open space, I think, I don't know, a few weeks in Jonathan Waxman came to the restaurant, and when he was done eating, he came and he said, "I've never seen a cook smile the whole night."
And that made me kind of feel good, because you know it's a tough job, physically, mentally and everything. And we try to really make a positive environment and everybody happy. We do some dancing before service starts, and listen to some music and we have a little pep talk and stuff like that. But during the night, when you're doing 300 covers, and the space is challenging. It's beautiful, don't get me wrong, but it is very challenging. They have to walk the food from one entire end of the kitchen, all the way to the other. And when you're listening to like, "Fire three more. Six Labneh. I need four frena." And you're in the middle of walking the plates and then you have to go back. It is definitely a challenge. But to know that they're happy and I'm cool with that. But I really thought, on the labor ends of it, that we would be in a better place than where we are.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me about this dancing of the start of service.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Oh, we have to get into it. We listen to Tiesto, Let's Get Down to Business. Sometimes we dance to the Lady Gaga and Let it Rain. Is that it? You just need to-
Vicki Freeman:
And Ayesha will lead, the line.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Sometimes the music is definitely loud at Shukette, Shuka. Shukette, where are we? Yes. It's loud at both. But sometimes-
Vicki Freeman:
At both.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
... at the five o'clock hour, believe it or not between five and 6:00, we do about a hundred people. Some of them are older and don't like the music loud, so we lower it. But we in the kitchen can't change that energy, because you need to just be on. And I feel like music to me is a big part of my life. And I think it's just the vibe of what we're trying to do.
Kerry Diamond:
So if someone wants to apply front or back of house for a job, what kind of person are you looking for?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Someone who loves to cook. Someone who has the passion for food. Someone that wants to be part of a family. Someone that definitely likes to smile, because you have to smile at people. And someone who is dedicated, it's not about the years or the time, it's about, when they're there, I want them to be there. And knowing that they're learning and tasting. So someone who's who is really eager and wants to learn how to work their way up, is someone that I'm looking for.
Kerry Diamond:
Vicki, what are you looking for?
Vicki Freeman:
Number one for me is you have to love restaurants, and equally you have to love being... I could teach anyone how to do the books, the back of the house, da, da, da, you have to love being on the floor. You have to love the guest. You have to love that whole experience. And it was interesting, because when we first opened, we could not find staff. And so I took over the hiring, and the greatest part of it is, I brought in people whose resumes I would've never even given a second look to. Been like, just whatever they had done, I was like, "No." And I ended up hiring the entire wait staff that we ended up having. And a lot of them, they're still with us, and some of the best people I've ever hired.
Because they had that passion and they had that love of restaurants. And even though it wasn't anything close, I mean I think one girl, she only worked at TGI Fridays, but she had this spark about her, and something that I saw/ and I was like, "You, this is exactly what I want." And it's hard to find. I think in a good way, some of it, but people after the pandemic want somewhat of a different life, and you have to be willing every night to come in and bring it.
Kerry Diamond:
Restaurants are evolving right in front of our eyes. How are you adapting to these new times for restaurants?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Coming back from the pandemic was probably the hardest, challenging time, where the rules were changing. Was it masks? Was it gloves? Was it washing your hands every 11 seconds? And there was a lot of bobbing and weaving. And I think we were all in our careers at that point where, we have like two strong feet on the ground and we found ourselves just scraping by on a pinky toenail. And it's challenging then, because it's very easy to lead when you're confident and you know what you're doing, and at that time, it's not that we didn't know what we were doing, but it was just challenging. And I think that we've learned to have a different mindset, a different acceptance.
Opening a restaurant with a team that never had New York restaurant experience in serving, and sometimes cooking. Is daunting. Because there's an expectation there, and someone's already laid the groundwork and now you're just building upon that. But to have to be the person to give that foundation is a lot.
Vicki Freeman:
Everyday, I still feel like it's changing, what the expectation is. When we came back from the pandemic, it's weird. It's different for both of us. I didn't find that as daunting. It was hard, when we came back from the shutdown, it was definitely hard, but you give me a problem, I can solve it. You know what I mean? Okay, how are you going to make people safe? How are we make them have a good time? How are we going to do all this? And everybody was so grateful to come out to eat, after those three months.
They were just like... It just made me, I don't even want to say what opening cook shop was like. I just cried completely. Because it was overwhelming, people are bringing bottles of champagne and they were so happy. I find that now a little, the expectations are getting higher and higher. So it's not just so much, "Thank you for being open, and thank you for working." It's like, the expectations are changing. So I feel like we're always trying to listen, to be there, and figure out what's going on now and work on what that is. So that's why I'm like, where are we today? And that's sort of where I was thinking about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Will we see more Shukettes? I mean, it feels like Vegas, like a Shukette would crush at Vegas.
Vicki Freeman:
Oh, geez.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
It's so funny, because Vicki and I have this conversation all the time. She says, "No." She says, "More Shukas."
Kerry Diamond:
More Shukas, okay.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I see more Shukettes, but I don't know. You have to have people in place at a place like Shukette that are going to bring it. Vicki's been on the floor since we opened four to five nights. I mean, she's taking a little break now, because she got into an accident, but not because she's walking away from it. You have to have people that are on the floor, or in the kitchen that are going to bring it or else the concept falls flat. Does that make any sense?
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. I just laugh-
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
…connection.
Kerry Diamond:
... when I hear Vegas come out of my mouth, because I think I've been the Vegas twice. You are the opposite of a Vegas person. You did not-
Vicki Freeman:
I am the absolute opposite of a Vegas person.
Kerry Diamond:
But that's the energy at Shukette.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
…out there.
Vicki Freeman:
And she's Miss Vegas, so we're like-
Kerry Diamond:
You would like to do Vegas.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I would a 100% do Vegas.
Vicki Freeman:
For me, the only reason I guess that I hesitate on the Shukette thing is I do, I mean not to sound, whatever this is going to sound like, but I think Shukette is magic. I think we created some magic.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you worry magic won't-
Vicki Freeman:
I don't know-
Kerry Diamond:
... happen twice?
Vicki Freeman:
I don't believe in chaining out magic. You know what I mean? Not to mean we can't do another Shukette, but to me it's so special what it is. Even in a way, on the grimey corner. I mean 24th and Ninth is not the most beautiful... We're in a strip mall. It's not the most gorgeous thing, but somehow that adds to the whole situation and-
Kerry Diamond:
Right, that's one of Manhattan's few strip malls.
Vicki Freeman:
Right, few strip malls. It's like, and-
Kerry Diamond:
I hadn't even thought about that.
Vicki Freeman:
... I would be a person to tell you, "I hate a strip mall," but I certainly love it in the middle of Manhattan. I think it's kind of cool. But it's, I don't know, I do worry about creating what we created, again. And I've seen some of like my most favorite restaurants try to recreate something and I don't know.
Kerry Diamond:
So the new issue of our magazine is all about entrepreneurs, and you two are very entrepreneurial. Would love to know something you now know that you wish you knew when you were starting out?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I wish that we could give some kind of class on how to save your money and how it could pay off. Even if it was a $100 a week, then when I was making $250, that would be impossible. But I really wish that I could have done that then, and been smarter.
Vicki Freeman:
And I think me, and I'm really honestly still not that great at it, so I'm going to say something that I'm still not great, is to be able to handle the ups and downs. Because no matter what business you're in, if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you have to be able to handle the ups and downs. They're going to happen. I mean, you listen to Jeff Bezos, listen to anybody, and I've never heard anyone just go, "We just started a trajectory up and we never had a problem and everything was great." But I think to be a strong entrepreneur, you have to be able to handle the ups and downs.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. I mean you have so many restaurants and have been operating in New York for so long. I mean, New York's a tough city, you're doing something, you seem to be handling the ups and downs.
Vicki Freeman:
Well, good, if it appears that way, that's good.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
No, but I think that's the charm of Vicki and a lot of our group, it really is hard in the hands, it's not even on the sleeve. I think like we generally go to work every day to give genuine hospitality from the front and the back, in all five restaurants. And we're very lucky to work with many people that come to work to do the same thing. And we're neighborhood restaurants and very proud of that. And we don't try to be someone else or overly fancy.
And you said about Shukette, how the servers are very knowledgeable. It's a different kind of knowledge than when you go to another restaurant, and they're like reading the ingredients and the technique. They're happy to eat. They think it's flavorful. It's something that they would want to eat if they were spending their own money on it. And I think that's how their knowledge is built. And there's something genuine about that, that I think makes connection.
Vicki Freeman:
The people that work at Shukette, I think, it seems like are really proud of it. And that, to go into work every day and have your staff be so excited, and so proud and we've had so much to celebrate and they've had so much to celebrate. And so it's been nice.
Kerry Diamond:
You two went on a little research trip recently.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
We did.
Vicki Freeman:
We did.
Kerry Diamond:
Where'd you go, Ayesha?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
We went to London. I think, we did 14 restaurants in three and a half days.
Vicki Freeman:
Literally.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
It is. Yeah, it's like marathon eating.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you go to London?
Vicki Freeman:
I think it had been so long since we had traveled. And for me, all of my inspiration is in traveling. And it's not like I go someplace and go, "I'm going to use that glass, this whatever." But somehow my brain, my heart, my soul opens up in traveling. And I had this point gone to London once a year, until this pandemic. And we really went just to taste other things, see other things.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I think, and it's a quick short trip. So it was four days and we got a lot done. I love London too. There's an energy, a kinetic energy about the city, and they really celebrate a lot of Middle Eastern cuisine, which is awesome. And there's something very laid back about London. You can tell them, "Hey, I'm having dinner somewhere else, so I'm just going to have a few bites." And they're like, "Okay." Whereas, I feel like in New York you would never say that, because they would be like, "What the hell you here for? You're not allowing us to give you that experience." Where they are bringing you that experience, whether you're having just a glass of champagne, and I don't know, chipirones or something like that.
Vicki Freeman:
They have hospitality in spades. They do. And I think that's part of going there and seeing it and feeling it.
Kerry Diamond:
What's next for each of you?
Vicki Freeman:
As far as professionally, I mean, I can only speak to me, we've been... I won't really think about it, for me, until I feel like the company and the restaurants are very solid, and this pandemic and all of this has to feel a little more settled. Staffing is the biggest thing to me. Sometimes lately, the thought of opening something else, where there isn't staff just, ugh, stresses me out. Do I want to do more things? I think it's ridiculous that I do, but I do.3.6958 I still have more ideas. I want to do more with her. She has... There's so much more there, that I would love to, but I do hope staffing gets better.
Kerry Diamond:
Ayesha?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
I agree. I'd love to do some more TV. I think-
Kerry Diamond:
Put it out there, what specifically?
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Specific my goal would be to have my own television show, something that's like a little bit of a culinary late night show, if you would. So it has a little humor to it, not so many of the demos, but I don't know. I think people are always interested like where chefs eat and kind of like seeing them as real people. So maybe like exposing some of that and talking about the restaurant business, and having a few drinks and a few laughs.
Kerry Diamond:
A culinary light night show, that doesn't exist.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Nope.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh. Oh, my gosh. Well, I can totally see that, and I think that would be a blast. I see you as like Johnny Carson behind the desk and everybody... Okay, let's all manifest that for you. That would be a lot of fun.
Kerry Diamond:
All right. Well, you two, thank you so much. I know how busy you are. So I really appreciate you coming and doing the show and I just love what you two are doing. And I'm just so, I mean, I don't know you that well, but I'm so proud of you both. So congratulations on all the success.
Vicki Freeman:
Well, thank you so much.
Ayesha Nurdjaja:
Thank you.
Vicki Freeman:
And thank you for the support and thank you for having us on.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Vicki Freeman and Ayesha Nurdjaja for joining me today. If you are in New York City, be sure to visit Shuka or Shukette. And if you see Vicki or Ayesha, make sure to say, hi. Thank you to Mommenpop for supporting today's show, visit mommenpop.com for more.
Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band Tra La La. Thank you Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. And thank you to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. And thanks to you for listening. You are the bombe.