She’s my cherry pie - fany gerson transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi peeps, you're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe's special baking mini-series, She's My Cherry Pie, I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer and the author of the cookbook Snackable Bakes. Each Saturday, I'm hanging with the sweetest bakers around, and taking a deep dive into one of their signature bakes. Today I'm talking doughnuts with dessert expert Fany Gerson. Fany has folks lining up for treats at her Fan-Fan Doughnut shop in the heart of Brooklyn, and she is known for her doughnut colabs with the likes of Claire Saffitz, Zoë Bakes, and Amanda Mack. Fany is also the author of three cookbooks, each highlighting Mexican desserts, My Sweet Mexico: Recipes for Authentic Pastries, Breads, Candies, Beverages, and Frozen Treats was nominated for a James Beard Award for Best Baking and Pastry Book. We'll talk with Fany in just a minute.
A big thank you to California Prunes for sponsoring this slice of She's My Cherry Pie. Let's talk about California Prunes, you may not know this, but prunes are healthy, delicious, and have a rich, deep flavor that pairs beautifully with everything from espresso to chocolate, and caramel to cinnamon. If playing with flavor is your jam, then you know what I'm talking about. For the bakers who are looking to cut down on sugar, it's prunes to the rescue, or rather, prune puree. What is prune puree, you might ask? Well, it's a combination of prunes and water that you blend together to create a velvety mixture that keeps in your fridge for up to four weeks. You can use the puree to replace from one third to half the sugar in a recipe. You can also do egg and oil swaps. Visit californiaprunes.org for the swap specifics, and to snag some holiday recipes for gingerbread, sticky buns, scones and more. Look for prunes at your favorite grocery or specialty store, you'll be swooning over prunes in no time.
Okay. Who out there has finished their holiday shopping? Not me, in case you were wondering. If you're like me and you need a few ideas, check out Cherry Bombe gift guides. There's one for the home cook out there, presented by Chronicle Books, and one for you cheese lovers presented by Cypress Grove. Head over to cherrybombe.com for more.
Now let's check in with Fany. Fany Gerson, welcome to She's My Cherry Pie. I am so excited to have you here to talk doughnuts with you, because they're literally my favorite food, and fried is my favorite food group.
Fany Gerson:
Oh, wow. So double whammy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. So first things first, I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about how you came to be the leading Mexican dessert authority in America, and New York City's reigning Queen of Doughnuts.
Fany Gerson:
Well, I don't know about that, but thank you so much for having me, I'm super excited to talk about doughnuts, and a little bit about my background. So I was born and raised in Mexico, and I worked in many different kitchens in New York. My first job as a pastry chef was at a Mexican restaurant called Rosa Mexicano on the Upper West Side. And I actually didn't like the restaurant at the time. I hadn't gone to that location, I had gone to another one, because the first time I went, people said, "You have to go to this restaurant, it's the best Mexican restaurant." And of course, being from Mexico, you have different expectations, and it was good, I wouldn't say it was the best, but I ended up taking the job because there was a new chef that had been hired, and I really connected with him. His name is Roberto Santibañez, he has a couple of awesome restaurants in New York called Fonda, so a little shout-out to him.
And then I went back to Mexico to wait for my visa. And when I went back to Mexico, I said, "I want to look for different cookbooks, and try to give them a more modern representation of traditional Mexican sweets, but in this sort of high end, more modern way." And I started to realize that there actually weren't a lot of cookbooks about Mexican sweets, and something that I took for granted, because I grew up with it. But Mexican sweets... Mexican food, but particularly sweets, are part of a big oral tradition, meaning they're passed down from generation to generation, and there's not a lot of documentation. And the one that there is, people are very sort of secretive about, or they hold tight to them.
And I remember my aunt told me about this ice cream town in the outskirts of Mexico City. And I said, "Oh, there's an ice cream town? Where have I been? Why haven't I been?" And so we went on this journey, we knew the sort of general area, but that's it. And so we started to ask around, my sister was there and we've never been able to find it again, which is we found things that are close, but that particular experience really changed my life, even though I didn't know it at the time, and my career. And so that curiosity of these amazing stories and these amazing people keeping these traditions alive, they need to be told. And for many years, I kept searching for that book, and I couldn't find it. And then one day said, "Maybe I need to write the book." It's a really long story, but I finally got to write the book.
And I spent a year doing research, traveling all around Mexico, and my intention isn't so much to quote-unquote rescue, but more to document, to try to give continuity to these beautiful sweet traditions of Mexico, so that's sort of how it became to be, and when I came back to New York, it really changed my life. I had this desire to open my own business, but it wasn't so much because I had this entrepreneurship bug, I need to make... I'm not business driven even though I have two businesses. It's more I wanted the creative freedom, and I wanted to tell these stories, and I wanted to keep on, what I like to say, sharing the sweetness of Mexico. I had many stories that didn't make it into the book, many recipes. Also being away from home, I feel is what brought me closer to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
So I opened my business called La Newyorkina, making ice pops called paletas. And then that fall, I had two jobs at the time when I opened, and by the time... then I quit one, then I quit the other one, and then by the time summer ended, I didn't have a job, and I didn't have... the season was over.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Fany Gerson:
And coincidentally, a friend of mine who was a former boss said, "What are you going to do now that it's not paleta season anymore?" And I said, "Well, I wanted to test the idea, people loved it thankfully, and I want to see how I can grow it for next summer, but I'm going to do some freelance in between." And that year was the first time I was able to do that because before then I didn't have my green card, and so I depended on being sponsored by with visas.
And so he said, "What do you think about opening a doughnut shop?" In a neighborhood called Bed-Stuy, which I'd never been to, in Brooklyn. And so he said, "Just meet me there." So I went there, and I'm like, "So here's a French guy and a Mexican girl talking about doing the quintessential American treat." Which I'd made a few in restaurants that I worked at, but that was it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you have a great recipe in your cookbook.
Fany Gerson:
And I do have a recipe that I love in my book, but it wasn't something that I grew up making or eating in the way that a lot of Americans do, it's not a staple in Mexican culture. And I said, "Well, yeah why not?" I tested the doughnut recipe for months just by itself, and we talked a lot about... we geeked out a lot about sort of the texture, we were... the flavor, the texture, what were we looking for? But because I didn't have sort of a point of reference and neither did he, I mean, again, we both had doughnuts and made, but not in the way that Americans had, because well, first of all, we couldn't understand why there weren't more artisanal, quote-unquote artisanal doughnut shops in New York, the way that him being from France, there's croissants and baguettes and things like that, or pan dulce in Mexico or other things. There were a couple of really good doughnut shops, but for the most part, there weren't a lot of people doing sort of the from scratch, kind of-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, the sort of the elevated doughnut.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, I'm not even talking about the flavors of inventiveness or whatever, I'm talking about-
Jessie Sheehan:
The dough.
Fany Gerson:
... the dough itself. So when we were talking about the dough, we wanted a dough that felt sort of light, but not too airy, that had a bite to it, that it was seasoned, but when we said seasoned, it wasn't like it has a specific note of a spice, it's more that... I always say that it tastes, kind of like salt brings out the flavor when you cook meat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
Kind of like that, so that it had... that even naked, as I like to call them, even without a glaze or a filling, it's delicious, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
It's balanced, and so we talked a lot about these textures and these flavors, but at the same time, we're two different people, right? And so I tested the recipe for months, and there was one week I'm like, "I need a break."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
When you're doing so much, it's like you almost can't see. So after I took a week off, I came back, I did this one batch and I was like, "This is it, this is what I've been trying to achieve." So I called him over, I said, but that's what I'm trying to achieve, I don't know if what I'm describing may seem different to him. And he took a bite and he's like, "All right, we're going to open in two weeks, you've got it." And so then we started focusing on the glazes and stuff.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I love this description, when you've spoken to Kerry [Diamond] in the past, she described your doughnuts as, "They're yeasty doughnuts with a variety of glazes and toppings and fillings, that tap into Fany's flair for flavor, sense of humor and international spirit." And I just loved that, and I felt like that sort of covered everything because the doughnuts have amazing flavors as we'll discuss. You have such a great sense of humor when you're naming your doughnuts at least, and then that international spirit also comes through in the flavors of the doughnuts. I also know, Fany, that you do all of these wonderful collaborations, and I was lucky enough to do one with you when my book Snackable Bakes came out.
Fany Gerson:
One of my favorites.
Jessie Sheehan:
It was really fun, I have a bun in my book that's just a pistachio chocolate bun actually made with a biscuit dough, but Fany did the most beautiful version of it with her doughnut dough, which I loved.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But can you tell us more about the different collaborations you do, and some of your favorites and sort of what... I don't know if there's a classic collab, but sort of what they look like.
Fany Gerson:
I'm always looking for different ways to collaborate, and there's usually, for the most part, also a component of giving back. To me, it's about the human connection, it's about creating a little bit of magic together. And I think it's sort of going against what corporations are, it's sort of goes at the root of having a small business, of also the creativity, the challenge, it has so many layers, and it just excites me. I always say I make my life very difficult for myself, but very exciting. I learn so much about others every time I do a collaboration, and about myself, and so I always like to do that. And again, it's just about the human connection, and one of my favorites was... I mean the one that we did, actually, was so fun. And we still have your book on sale at the shop, and it's still one of the favorites, it's not a doughnut per se, but we do a lot of different things with the doughnut dough.
The Cherry Bombe one that we did for Valentine's Day to celebrate all the different covers for the winter when I was on one of the covers was amazing, Tom Colicchio, and also some very personal ones, we opened during the pandemic.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
And we did a Chocolate Doughnut Festival, and we've done two, we're now getting prepared to do our third, where we transformed the entire store, and created 18 or 20 different chocolate flavors - all new. And the first year we did it because it was in the pandemic, I felt people were longing to travel, were homesick, I certainly was, and also yearning for experiences, right? And so we created flavors, each of the flavor represented a different country. And so it was just beautiful for people to come and be like, "Oh, I'll have the Iran, and the Israel, and the Brazil, and the Japan." And a lot of those flavors came out of collaborations that weren't so specific, but it was I reached out to different friends and chefs that were from different countries, and just talked about their culture. And then that's one of the amazing things about living in New York, I went looking for these South African specific ingredients, or Korean ones, and so those are very meaningful.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean it's your generosity of spirit, Fany, because I just... I really do, because like you said, it's not easy to do... I mean some of the collaborations, obviously, they're helping you, you're helping them, but often you're just being generous of spirit and wanting, just like you said, pursuing what is creative and fun for you. And it really is such a gift to the other... I mean having been on the other end of it with you, it is such a gift to the person who gets to collaborate with you.
Fany Gerson:
Thank you, that means so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
It's never like, "Oh, this one is going to sell a lot."
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Exactly.
Fany Gerson:
Or this one is going to be... it's not about that-
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly.
Fany Gerson:
... it's a very personal one, and I get to work with amazing, amazing humans-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
... like yourself.
Jessie Sheehan:
I read this somewhere and I was wondering if you could speak to it or sometimes you read things and they're not even accurate, but I read that the Fan-Fan recipe calls upon techniques from making churros and ice cream.
Fany Gerson:
A little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
There's a little bit of truth to that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
So when I was developing... so I started making doughnuts in 2010.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
I had a different doughnut shop called Dough, and then we separated, some of the partners and I separated. When I started again, it was, "Okay, I need to sort of up my own game." And when I started to develop this new recipe I thought about... I was like, "Oh, at La Newyorkina we make churros, making a Mexican cinnamon tea." And so when I was testing the different liquids, tested with milk and cream, a combination of both, a combination of milk and water. And I said, "I wonder if using the same thing that we do for the churros, making the Mexican cinnamon tea would change things or would make it any different." And I just loved it and I was like, "I need to make that again." Because the thing is that Mexican cinnamon is very fragrant and very floral, and so we tried it with different kinds of cinnamon. Also, I mean being Mexican, that's my favorite, but I wanted to try in different ones but the one more common, the cassia variety is too spicy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
And as we were talking about it before, I wanted to kind of season the dough. So the dough itself has fresh nutmeg that we fresh grind ourselves by hand. We've really tried side by side blind tasting to different people that were... my husband was a big guinea pig and friends. And I was like, do you taste the difference? And you can't taste the cinnamon per se, but it does something to the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing.
Fany Gerson:
I am not a chemist, but I also think that it's not just the flavor, but I think that the natural oil from the cinnamon itself that seeps into the water, I think it does something that makes it magical.
Jessie Sheehan:
The flavors, I just looked at the menu last night because I know the flavors are always changing, but I just love them. And before we get into the nitty gritty of the recipe we're going to discuss, I'd love you to just tell us a little bit about some of the flavors for those that have not yet visited Fan-Fan.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because they of course have to now, my favorite is Mexican cinnamon sugar.
Fany Gerson:
Oh well, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I just thought you could tell us a little bit about that one and then I'll ask you about a few others or you can just riff on what you love.
Fany Gerson:
Sure. So we have certain flavors, they're about I think eight or 10 flavors that we always have, unless there's an ingredient that we can't get, but we always try to have, let's just say. Mexican cinnamon sugar is one of our most popular, so we take that whole Mexican cinnamon toasted, we grind it ourselves and then we mix it with sugar, it's just delicious. It is also my go-to when I'm craving a doughnut because I have to refrain myself but a warm cinnamon sugar, I'll just take a bite, a couple of bites and I'm like, "Okay, take it away, take it away." A lot of the flavors are very personal, so the Danny Boy, that's named from my husband, that's a salted brown butter caramel, pecans on top, the Mango Lassi is a mango glaze with cardamom and then it has a yogurt glaze and a little bit of pistachio on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us about the White Coffee?
Fany Gerson:
The White Coffee, so the White Coffee we make sort of, imagine a cold brew, so it's a cold infusion. So we put whole beans and we steep them for 48 hours in the dairy that we use, so you get all the flavor of the coffee, but it looks white or sometimes depending on how much it seeps, it looks off-white. And it's full, it's a very intense coffee flavor, it tastes like café con leche and then it just has a little bit of sort of ground espresso beans on top and it's very simple but it's so good and it's one of the most popular ones as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Something about the name just speaks to me, I-
Fany Gerson:
The White Coffee.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, because I just can taste that creamy foamy milk on top of a café con leche.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, it also has that, I did forget to mention that, but yes, the glaze itself has a little bit of that creaminess-
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Fany Gerson:
... that we look for.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because I love churros so much-
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... can you tell people about the Spain doughnut?
Fany Gerson:
So Spain was actually one of the flavors that we did for that Chocolate Doughnut Festival, and a few of them have stayed as a favorite, so that's one of the specials we have more often.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
And so we make the churros at La Newyorkina, we have a churro machine and so we do a lot of sort of cross production, let's just say, but in Spain, most of the churros are tossed, it's more common to find them with just sugar and in Mexico with cinnamon sugar. So for this particular one, we make the churros, we toss them in granulated sugar and then it goes on top of our Choc Choc Glaze. So a Choc Choc Glaze is our classic chocolate and I call it Choc Choc because that's what my nieces called chocolate. And I'm very close to my family and I'm always thinking about them and they definitely have an influence. And our Chocolate Glaze, I have to say I love, that was one of the first things I wanted to make sure is most chocolate glazed doughnuts, including the ones that I made when I first started my journey because again, it was sort of learning for myself, they're very sugary and they're kind of crusty like a lot of the toppings in general for doughnuts because for the most part glazes are thickened with-
Jessie Sheehan:
Confection.
Fany Gerson:
... confection or sugar. And so as they dry out they become a little... yeah a little-
Jessie Sheehan:
They almost shatter a little bit when you bite into them.
Fany Gerson:
Exactly. And I wanted to do a very different kind of chocolate doughnut, I wanted to do a chocolate doughnut that it's almost, I could dare you to eat it without getting messy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
Very fudge-like because it's about sort of being a kid again, and so the churros and chocolate has our Classic Choc Choc Glaze and then the two pieces of churro on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And then finally, just tell us about Milk and Cookies because I feel like this came up a lot when I was reading about you, but talk to us a little bit about Maria Cookies because I feel like they play a role in this particular doughnut.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. So this one I wanted to do a play on sort of cookies and cream, but because we make everything, and I think it's because I just want to share a lot of the flavors that I love from where I'm from or also explore from other cultures that I find. So I love Maria Cookies are kind of round cookies that are kind of our graham crackers and they have a little hint of vanilla, little hint very maybe of orangy flavor, but also I said, "How do I turn that into..." And then I remember reading Stella Parks, who has one of my favorite cookbooks, BraveTart, she talked about this milk frosting, it has another name.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, ermine.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, that's so delicious.
Fany Gerson:
Thank you. And I never heard of it and I said, "Oh, I wonder." So that was sort of the basis of the inspiration because I didn't want to do just a regular buttercream. I tried it as a buttercream, I'm like, "It doesn't really translate." And so I said, "Oh well, this is perfect because it's a milk frosting, so it's a milk and cookies, right?" Milk and cookies go together, so it's milk and cookies in different ways. So it's milk frosting, but we infuse the milk with the Maria Cookies. We bring it to a boil the milk, we soak them overnight, then we grind it, then we strain it. And then you do the cooked milk frosting, and then we make chocolate chip cookies to go on top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love it.
Fany Gerson:
And it's so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that, I love that, and that ermine frosting is so interesting, you're literally I think cooking milk and flour and sugar on the stove top, right?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Until it sort of comes together as a solid, you cool it and then you whip it in your stand mixer with butter.
Fany Gerson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back.
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everybody, Radio Cherry Bombe host Kerry Diamond here, I want to tell you a little bit about Jessie's latest book, Snackable Bakes: 100 Easy-Peasy Recipes for Exceptionally Scrumptious Sweets and Treats. It's the perfect cookbook for anyone who loves baking from scratch but is pressed for time, which I'm guessing is most of us. All of Jessie's recipes can be assembled in less than 20 minutes with pantry friendly ingredients and short, easy to follow instructions. Whether you need a sweet treat for yourself, for a bake sale, dessert swap, or potluck, Jessie's got you covered.
Well, Jessie loves the snack of a bake, she is not a fan of cleaning up. So most of her recipes come together with nothing more than a bowl, a whisk and a spatula. I love that, because I manage to use every bowl and utensil I own when I bake, I don't know why that happens, but it does. Jessie's recipes include epic snicker doodles, raspberry crumb topped pie with easiest ever crust, the dreamiest chocolate peanut buttercup, that's my personal fave, apple pie bars and devil's food snacking cake with marshmallow frosting. Sound yummy? Then pick up a copy of Snackable Bakes for yourself or a beloved baker at your favorite local bookstore.
Jessie Sheehan:
I want to talk about the recipe for your yeasted strawberry filled doughnuts, which are in your book, My Sweet Mexico.
Fany Gerson:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I know it's not the exact recipe obviously at Fan-Fan, but I thought it would be fun for people to just hear about a yeasted doughnut-
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... created by Fany. I feel like this recipe is brioche-ish.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Would you say?
Fany Gerson:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Meaning that it has milk and it has butter and it has eggs. And I noticed that when you're adding a little bit of yeast to the milk, you just have it at room temperature, it doesn't need to be warm.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. And so this was mimicking the first time I made doughnuts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
And of course I made it, now if I were to revise it, I'd be like, "Well, if you want to speed up the process you would warm it, I would warm it up."
Jessie Sheehan:
But that is interesting to know, I don't think I knew you didn't have to.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
That you can start with room-
Fany Gerson:
You can start with room temperature, and so the reason why you often just have it warm, it's just to see that the yeast is actually working.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Fany Gerson:
And there's a lot of recipes that you actually don't even warm it up, like our doughnut at the shop, we don't warm it up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah, interesting.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I know that in this particular recipe it's active dry, I always use instant. Do you have a preference? I mean obviously you like active dry, but can one just use instant yeast?
Fany Gerson:
There's charts sort of online and I actually started out using fresh yeast because that's what was available, in Mexico dry yeast isn't as available as fresh yeast and you buy fresh yeast from bakeries.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh wow.
Fany Gerson:
And I love actually the taste of fresh yeast, it's very potent.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
Very particular but I don't think a lot of people like that. I think they're all interchangeable, it's whatever you can find where you are, so I find sort of this yeast is sort of the middle ground, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
And it allows you to control it a little bit more and it doesn't have such a strong flavor, but I don't have a strong-
Jessie Sheehan:
Feeling, one way or the other.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. With instant yeast you're just adding it to your dry ingredients, but if you use active dry, there is that moment where you get to see if there are bubbles and then you can say, "Yay, it's alive."
Fany Gerson:
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I know in this recipe you have a combination of both all-purpose flour and bread flour.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell people about what's nice about a combination versus just bread or just all purpose?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. I mean that's a very good question, so when it comes to making breads in general or doughs, anything that's yeasted, there's different things that a certain flower is going to add, so what changes within them is the protein content. And so when I was testing my recipes, the recipe for the shop is once we came close, I actually used different brands of flour, the bread flour and all-purpose flour or pastry and bread, and they all add their differences, right? But one adds a little more elasticity, but if you add just that one kind then it's going to be too tough. And so having a blend of them really sort of pays off in the small ways. But again, in the book I talk about, if you can't get it in Mexico, it's very hard, you get just one kind of bread, whatever flour that is, that's it. And it's called all purpose, but it's not always all purpose, it's closer to a bread.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. And then the recipe calls for some eggs as well as some yolks, are the yolks just to add a little bit of extra richness?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, extra fat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Extra fat.
Fany Gerson:
Extra fat.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice, to make it tender? What does the fat do?
Fany Gerson:
It makes it more tender but also rich, kind of the mouth feel that you get, and so this is much closer to a brioche dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that. Yeah, love that. And then in terms of the oil for the frying, just any kind, anything with a high...
Fany Gerson:
Anything with a high smoke point, so a lot of doughnuts are made with shortening actually because they don't impart flavor or lard.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
Also, lard does have a distinctive flavor, but it just stands a lot and you don't need to change it that often. So for commercial doughnut shops especially the shortening is a very economical thing, we don't use that, we use a vegetable... so anything that's neutral, but something like, for example, grape seed oil has a high smoke point, but it has a particular flavor. I try to stay away from that, so you want something neutral that can stand the heat, that won't impart a lot of flavor.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just on that same idea of when you... I mean we're sort of jumping at a teeny bit, but when you get to that frying point and you're putting your oil into your pot, I think I heard that sometimes I want to fry in a small pot because I'm not making very much and I don't want to waste a ton of oil or whatever, but I've heard that a larger pot is better because it keeps temperature better than the smaller pot. Is that a crazy thing? Or is there any...
Fany Gerson:
So there's a couple of things there, I mean it depends how many you're going to make, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Fany Gerson:
If you're going to make a few doughnuts, a small pot is fine, but I want to talk a little bit about frying because I think people are often very scared about frying in general.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Fany Gerson:
And so when you're scared, and the reason why I think a lot of people get burnt is so you end up sort of adding something and you're like, "Oh." You're going to sort of throw it and then it's going to splash, so it's almost the closer you are to the oil, the less it's going to splash, but it's sort of counter-
Jessie Sheehan:
Intuitive.
Fany Gerson:
... intuitive, right? Because you want to sort of protect yourself. So a lot of the recipes, doughnut recipes call where you put the dough... form dough in parchment paper or wax paper and then you literally put the paper and then you slide it out with tongs. And so to listeners out there don't be... just don't throw it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. We'll talk about this more in a second, but Fany's way of doing it with small pieces of parchment paper is brilliant.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, when you fry them, if you're going to fry a lot of doughnuts, you definitely want a bigger pot because of two things. One is if it's too small and you're making a lot of doughnuts, every time you fry the temperature of your oil is going to drop. So you're going to have to wait for the temperature to come back up in between batches, and then your doughnuts might over proof, right? That's if you're making a lot of doughnuts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
If you're making a small amount, it's whatever you have around.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
I mean a larger pot is going to have a larger surface area, so it is less likely to drop in temperature, but honestly for the home I wouldn't do one that's too small.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
Definitely at least a medium pot, and then that oil, you can strain it and then you can use it because the doughnuts themselves is not something like when you fry fish that is going to... you can use them for regular cooking, you don't have to save it just for that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. So I got us a little ahead with frying, but it is one of the most important parts, but I did want to ask you a couple of other things.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know at least in this particular recipe, you're using your stand mixer and you're using a dough hook. After you've made your dough, you're going to be rolling it out, and I wondered if you had a special rolling pin that you're fond of. Do you like the ones that have handles? Do you like a tapered one?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. No, I mean I think that living in New York, this is the first time I have a regular size. I actually feel like I have a house cause it's like two floors, but sometimes I didn't even have a rolling pin or I would take it back to the kitchen because it got lost or we needed an extra one, so I'd often use a bottle of wine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
I like the ones that are kind of... I don't even know, they're kind of tapered in the end, but they don't have the handles.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
They're wooden, they're not very thick, so those are if I have my say, but honestly it's whatever you have around works.
Jessie Sheehan:
Whatever you have. Good to know. And same with your doughnut cutters, is there a specific kind of... it's sort of like a biscuit cutter?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, it's just a regular cookie cutter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
But the ones that I don't like, they sell these doughnut cutters that have sort of the outer circle and the inner circle. I don't particularly like those because not all dough works that way, so even at the shop when we make a lot of doughnuts, we cut the outside and then we cut the inside.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
There's also these rolling pins that have those cutters, that you can cut a lot at once. Again, I don't particularly like them and at home and I'm always trying to... don't go buy things that are unnecessary.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I agree.
Fany Gerson:
So if you don't have a cookie cutter and you want to make them, you can use a cup, you can use a glass or anything like that and you just want to dip it in flour before you cut it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
The only thing that the cutter does that a glass can't is that it's sharper, right? But you can also use a knife and they also don't need to be round, they can be square.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. I'm always breaking my thermometers at home. Now, maybe it's because I just don't have... I feel like the more I fry I'm having to get rid of them. Am I doing something wrong? Do you guys go through thermometers?
Fany Gerson:
No. We go through thermometers a lot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God.
Fany Gerson:
I feel like a lot of oil and sugar thermometers are not well made because they're very tall and often you have this little clip-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
... that happens, so they're glass.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
But I actually bought the ones that have lasted the most, I buy them online and they have this sort of flip thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
At the bottom?
Fany Gerson:
They flip, the little needle thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
So those are used but again, I mean the thermometer is the one tool that is the most useful because it's hard to tell, but even if you don't have a thermometer, there's ways to tell that the oil is ready. You take a little piece of dough and you put it inside and it should after one second or two seconds, it should-
Jessie Sheehan:
Rise.
Fany Gerson:
It should rise.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Fany Gerson:
If it rises too fast, the oil is too hot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
If it takes a while, then it's too cold, but that's the one thing that's going to... if you're going to buy one tool, that's the one. And even you can also make the dough by hand, it's just going to take a long time. And then if you do make it by hand, you want to make sure that the butter can be colder because you're going to be warming it with your hands.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm. And then the final tool I just wanted to mention before we get into the assembly of the doughnut, I noticed in a video online for Food52 that you, I think in this video you were using, I don't even know what the name of the tool is, it's a wooden handle with a little basket at the end. Is that a good tool for flipping the doughnuts and lifting them out?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. I mean at the shop we use these really long, sort of they look like chopsticks but really, really long.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
But anything that's like a slotted spoon is good, but you just want to make sure what you saw is like a spider. You want to be careful again if you're afraid of frying that it's not too sort of deep and just use the end. You don't have to actually put it inside sort of the center of the spoon, you can flip it literally with a knife and then it's about when you bring it out, you just want something that... and then when you drain them, you can do a couple of different ways. You can drain them in a sheet pan with a rack or in... again, if you don't have a rack, I don't want you to feel like you have to go buy one. You can put it in paper towels, but what's better than paper towels is paper bags.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
Paper bags absorb oil great, but the racks work the best.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it gross to say newspaper? Sometimes I put new... sometimes I'll have my rack and then I have newspaper underneath if I don't have paper bags.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that's fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. One thing I loved that again, I saw online, it's always fun, if you can find Fany online, find her immediately because it's so fun to watch her do this. But I loved the point, so you've assembled the ingredients in your stand mixer and you're at the point of rolling it out and you were talking about how you like to roll it out and then kind of rub your hand over it-
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and kind of get low at eye level with the dough to kind of see how smooth it was, and you said, "And I do this in the shop." Tell us about that, I just loved it so much.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. So even at the shop we have this machine, it's called a sheeter that basically mimics the rolling of the dough. So even then when it's even, after it comes out we kind of press it together and then you smooth it out with your hands and then we give it another roll and then you get low so that it's all as even, but it's also, you want to give as much love to the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
One of the most important things is you have to be in a good mood when you bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
I really believe that it's going to... sometimes it's, "I've tried this recipe so many times and it doesn't work." It's you have to be in a good head space to do it and especially something that you touch with the hands as much as a dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
After you've added the butter to the dough, I know you kind of let it go for about 10 minutes or so, at least if you're making doughnuts at home on medium speed, does that sound right to you and just kind of let that machine do its work kneading the dough?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, I mean it really depends on the machine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
Some machines nowadays I tried to when I did these recipes for my book, I actually once I have them I recipe test them and then I send to regular cooks, it's "Okay these are the recipes that I need." And I fill out questionnaire to make sure because not everybody has certain equipments or they're different, so this is kind of a range. And I talk about what you need to look for more than the time, right? Because sometimes, oh I did exactly eight minutes or 10 minutes and it didn't look like that. So you're supposed to have the dough, once it's done, it should be sort of elastic, it should feel smooth when you touch it with your hand, nothing should be sticking, no dough should be sticking to your hand, it should be away from the edges and it looks silky and it feels pillowy, like a hard pillow.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. I think it's in this recipe, but you describe after your dough has rested for about two to three hours and you're taking it out and beginning to roll it, you talk about bringing the edges to the center and then turning it over on itself. Can you just describe what... I think that's before you're about to roll it out, is that correct?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, so I mean there's many different ways, people punch it or people... so it's kind of you want to take some of the air out and flip it before you roll it because otherwise when you roll it you're going to get these sort of air pockets and literally bubbles that you're going to have to... and there's nothing wrong with that, it just helps to tighten the dough so that it's all even when you roll it out and when you cut them out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, it's funny, it sounds so dumb, but I don't think I ever understood punching, but now that makes sense because my dough is always covered in little bubbles and now I'm going to get out a little aggression and punch, I'm going to punch my doughnuts. When you're using the cutters to cut out the doughnuts, this is just something that I have been talking about when I've been talking about biscuits with people. You know how when you make a biscuit, you don't really want to twist the biscuit cutter when you pull it out because then it gets rid of all the flaky layers that are in that.
Fany Gerson:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it the same with doughnuts? Is it that finicky or no?
Fany Gerson:
It's not that finicky, it's more about getting the... you do want to sort of put it in flour a little bit, but it's about sort of getting the edges, whatever shape you're making. It's more about that, it won't... because it's not a flakiness, so it's just about getting it right and then you want to make sure you cut them as close to each other.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Fany Gerson:
Because you can re-roll the dough but then the more you re-roll the more tougher it's going to be.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, a hundred percent. And just, we sort of talked a little bit about the different shapes and we did talk about braids, but can you tell us the braiding technique? Is it just dividing the dough into three?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, so we take sort of... well, actually to make our braids, we use the scraps right at the end.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Fany Gerson:
And then we put them all together, and anytime you want to re-roll for whatever reason, you want to let it rest, because otherwise... and you'll see it, it's going to come back to you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
So you just need to give it a little time, give it a few minutes. We re-roll them, we cut them, you cut them literally strips. And then we use two braids, so we put them together and you can use a little bit of water for the end.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
And then we braid them and then we have... we don't have room, we have a little tiny spoon that is the perfect measure. And then you want to test however thick because they're going to grow in both directions. They're going to grow a little bit tall, but also wide.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Fany Gerson:
And then for the braids that we do that are flower, that's a little more complicated, but literally if you look online how to do a braided challah, round challah, that's how you do it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
Because I don't know if I'd be able to-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No it's hard, it's-
Fany Gerson:
... to describe that.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, I was thinking about that when I was looking-
Fany Gerson:
Over, under, under, over.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. You understand why there are all these pictures in people's cookbooks of the exact steps, because it's so hard to write it.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so hard to say it verbally.
Fany Gerson:
Yes. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just so I understand, when you make the braid, it's not a three... it's not like when you braid your hair and it's three, it's just two.
Fany Gerson:
It's just two.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's nice.
Fany Gerson:
It's just two. You can make it three, sometimes we've made it three, but we do a two braided.
Jessie Sheehan:
And just to go back to what you said about the scraps, because I found this so interesting again online, but you were talking about how gentle you need to be with them and about... can you talk to people about how you kind of... I think you said you kind of almost stack the scraps.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we found in the same idea of not wanting to overwork the dough, so instead of putting them all together and just kneading them, it's almost like how can you put them together as gently as possible without kneading, resist the urge to knead. So we put the scraps and we literally lay them one on top of the other. And then when we roll it out, sometimes you can fold it again if it looks uneven and then you fold it again, you can let it rest again and then you roll it. That's going to make sure that even your last doughnuts are going to be with a similar consistency if not the same as the first ones. Otherwise, it's going to be too tough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
They're going to be too tough.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like that's great scrap advice for everything, for pie dough, for biscuits, for everything because that is the fear when you have a little scrap, is it not going to look as nice? Is it going to be wonky?
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
But I've never sort of have been given instructions on how to treat scraps.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I loved that.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. And even if I do something like a pie dough or something, I'll fold it the way that you do puff pastry so that you create those kind of layers again.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Fany Gerson:
And then that it's almost the same.
Jessie Sheehan:
You'll fold the scraps in that letter fold.
Fany Gerson:
I'll fold the scraps, in that letter fold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh I love, love, love, love.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm sorry but this is so fun because I learned so much, I mean I hope people listening do, but I learned so much. And you also mentioned leaving a few scraps just so that you can use those to test your oil, which we talked about.
Fany Gerson:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then I also loved this description, which you also kind of already said, but that you know they're ready when they look like really cute pillows.
Fany Gerson:
Yes, exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then tell people about the parchment and the cutting because I thought that was brilliant.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, so when you roll the doughnuts, I mean you roll your dough and you put the doughnuts. When you put them on the sheet pan, I like to put, if you make them at home, we don't do that at the shop, that'd be a lot of-
Jessie Sheehan:
Extra work.
Fany Gerson:
That'd be a lot of extra work and waste, but this is a really cool technique where you put... and I didn't make it up, first and foremost. So you put the doughnut on top of a parchment paper and then you cut around it after... but you want to cut after they've been proofed, you don't want to cut them before, that way you know how much they've proofed up. And then you cut around and then when you place them in the oil, you literally take that piece of paper with the doughnut and then you slide it, you just gently put it in the oil. Sometimes the doughnut is going to slide in right away so you can just take away the paper, but sometimes it can get a little bit stuck to it. And so don't fear literally the oil is going to separate it and you can just take some tongs and very carefully take them out so that you don't get burned. And so this is a way because I really wanted people to not fear, not have that be the reason to hold you back for making doughnuts.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And is that a technique? I don't know, I kind of have seen it before, but I've never done it at home. Would you do that for a yeasted doughnut as well as a cake? Any kind of batter that you're frying that you just don't want to make it into a wonky shape.
Fany Gerson:
I feel like it depends on it because if it's... it depends on the recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Fany Gerson:
So the yeast dough is going to slide, but something like a cake doughnut, depending on the recipe, that might be too sticky.
Jessie Sheehan:
Ah.
Fany Gerson:
So it's going to stick too much and it's going to pull it aside. French crullers are made that way, so you can do that or you could do that for churros if you didn't want to pipe them directly onto it. So you pipe for the French crullers-
Jessie Sheehan:
On the paper.
Fany Gerson:
... on the paper, and then the same thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Yeah, love. Is it about two minutes per side? Or are you usually doing it by eyesight?
Fany Gerson:
You do it by eyesight and then... well, one important, even before you fry them, you want to make sure that they feel literally like a pillow.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
If they feel dense, they're not quite ready.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
So again, in the recipe I give a range of time, but again it depends, maybe you have a proof box in your home or maybe it's too cold or maybe... so it's more like what you're looking for. If it's too dense, then it's not ready. And then when you cook it, even if it looks nice, it's going to be raw in the middle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Mm-hmm.
Fany Gerson:
You want to make sure that it's sort of a nice golden brown on one side and then you flip it on the other side and you should just flip it once, you don't need to flip it again.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. I love that, I think I missed that about the weight. It's not only whether it looks puffy, but sort of you can hold that little piece of parchment in your hand, and feel.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, you can hold it. Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Fany Gerson:
And then also you want to make sure if you coat it right away when it's warm, if you're very sensitive to heat, maybe you hold off a few minutes, but the hotter it is, the more the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Sugar will stick.
Fany Gerson:
... sugar is going to stick to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Fany Gerson:
So at the doughnut shop, that's always a tricky thing because since we make them throughout the day, it's we have to make whatever's selling the most, we have to make, but sometimes we have to let certain doughnuts cool. For example, the chocolate glaze, we have to make sure that one's cold because otherwise it's going to be too see through, but the classic glazed or the cinnamon sugar, it has to be hot. And so that's always a balance and some others have to be warm, so that's always-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that's tricky. That's tricky. And I just want to put them all in my mouth anyway. Yeah, you said two minutes each side and then roll in sugar while warm and then you can cool them for these particular ones that we're filling.
Fany Gerson:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then just to finish, I know this particular recipe with the strawberry jam is obviously filled. Can you tell people a little bit about the piping bag? And I love because I've done it myself, you can sort of... you're holding the doughnut in your hand, you can kind of feel it grow as you fill it.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. So ideally you have a piping bag with a piping tip, you can use a flat or a fluted one but again, if you don't have one, you don't need to go buy one. You can use a Ziploc bag and just cut the end out. And so you want to hold it, and what I like to do actually is before putting it in, if you don't have a piping bag, use something to make a little hole so it's going to be easier for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Chopstick or something.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah, a chopstick or something like that, just to help you through. And then you're going to hold it with the other hand and once it... you're going to feel it, you're going to feel the weight. And then you want to stop as you're piping, so you press with the hand to pipe, then you want to stop and then pull out, because sometimes when you pull out right away, then you have jam all over, which is not terrible. It's not a terrible thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you like to do on the edge as opposed to sort of in the middle.
Fany Gerson:
Yeah. I like to do it on the edge, so when you see the doughnuts puff up, they're going to have sort of a line in the middle, a white line, that's a beautiful thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Fany Gerson:
And then sometimes after it cools, you won't see the line anymore because it kind of collapses, but kind of where that line is, but there's no right or wrong.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. No, it's a matter of preference. Well, Fany, this has just been the sweetest conversation, I love talking to you and I just want you to know that you are my cherry pie.
Fany Gerson:
Ah, thank you so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show, so let's get baking. You can find the recipe for Fany's strawberry jam filled doughnuts on cherrybombe.com, go to our show notes to find the link.
Thank you to California Prunes for supporting our show. She's My Cherry Pie and Radio Cherry Bombe are a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Thanks to the teams at Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center and at CityVox Studios. Our executive producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and our assistant producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thank you for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.