Joanna Gaines Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You're listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe magazine. And each week, I talk to the most interesting women and culinary creatives in and around the world of food.
For today's episode, we're sharing my interview with Joanna Gaines from this year's Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference held this past April in Manhattan. Joanna is the co-founder of Magnolia, which I'm sure most of you know includes a TV network, books and cookbooks, a magazine, restaurants, shops, and even a hotel. Joanna is one of the most incredible entrepreneurs in America today. She went from working for 10 years in her father's tire shop after college to becoming one of the most influential women in design, media, and food. Joanna was our Jubilee keynote speaker and joined me fresh off a big family trip in Seoul, Korea where her mother is from. She and I talked about her journey as an entrepreneur and a leader, why her internship at CBS in New York didn't quite work out, her advice for young adults regarding college, her answer might surprise you, what's left on her bucket list, and why it's important to have a vision of what you're working toward. I loved meeting and talking to Joanna. She is warm and engaging, and I hope you enjoy our chat. Right before I interviewed Joanna at Jubilee, I had moderated a panel of Magnolia Network food stars. Joanna refers to the panel, so in case you're wondering what she's talking about, there you go. In case you're not familiar with our Jubilee conference, it's the largest gathering of women and culinary creatives in the food and beverage space in the whole US. It's a day filled with great food, drink, and networking.
Our 2024 Jubilee is taking place Saturday, April 20th at Center415 in Manhattan. Early bird tickets are on sale right now at cherrybombe.com, so check it out. Prices will increase on January 1st, so don't delay. The team and I would love to see you in April.
Today's episode is supported by our friends at OpenTable. The holiday season is here and lots of us are looking for places to gather, so we can celebrate with friends, family, and colleagues over a beautiful meal. That is where OpenTable comes in. OpenTable has curated guides to the best special occasion spots, plus filters that allow you to easily discover nearby restaurants that are great for groups. I'm guessing some of you know the drama of trying to find a restaurant to accommodate your group. Are you the one in the group always charged with making the reservations? I see you. OpenTable is here to help folks like us plan celebratory meals with ease. To book your next reservation, go to opentable.com, or the OpenTable app on your phone, which I hope you all have downloaded. It's that easy.
Here's my talk with Joanna Gaines from Jubilee 2023. We're going to start with your most recent trip. We're luck you're here because you were just in Korea, you just returned.
Joanna Gaibes:
I got back Wednesday.
Kerry Diamond:
How jet-lagged are you?
Joanna Gaibes:
I keep waiting for my brain and my head to... I feel like I'm in a bubble, like a time warp. So got back Wednesday and I was feeling so good and I was like "Jet lag, whatever." Thursday, feeling great. I guess it was adrenaline. And then yesterday, it hit. So I apologize in advance for anything I may say that I mean or don't mean.
Kerry Diamond:
This is the first time you traveled to Korea where your mother lived until she was 19 years old. What was behind your decision to take this trip?
Joanna Gaibes:
Chip was behind that decision 100%. For years, he said, "Jo, you've got to take your mom back. How special would that be?" I would say for anything, getting me out of the house is Chip pushing that because I love being home. I'm not a great traveler. And so for years, I just put it off, and just with the kids being young, it felt hard. But she turned 70 this year. On her 65th birthday, I gave her a card that said, "We're taking you to Korea this year." That was five years ago. Every year, as we all know, something came up and it just didn't work out. And last December, Chip was like, "Jo, you have to make this happen." And so we got it on the books and we brought about 25 of our family members. It was a drift. It was amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
You all heard that, right? 25.
Joanna Gaibes:
25. All my sister's six kids, all my five kids, my other sister's kid, I mean, my mom and dad, and then my uncle and my aunt. My uncle actually moved here 30 years ago, and that was the first time he'd been back. So it was just so special.
Kerry Diamond:
You are a very spiritual person. How did it feel to be somewhere where you have such strong ancestral ties?
Joanna Gaibes:
I told myself right before I went to Korea, I have this... I don't know what it is about my personality. I don't know if it's middle kid or... I've always been one to push away feeling stuff when I was younger. And the older I get, I have learned when you feel your way through things, it's actually healing, it's cathartic. And I knew there was going to be something special on this trip, maybe even something I was avoiding for so many years, and I don't even know what it was. But right before I left, I told myself, "When you eat, close your eyes and remember the sounds, the smells, the flavors, what you're touching, who you're with." I had to be really intentional about these moments so that in 20 years, I can remember. It wasn't just a picture on my phone, but it was truly this memory.
And so I went into it knowing it was going to do something internally, but the moment we landed, it was the weirdest thing because it felt... I don't know how to say this. It felt like this full circle, this completion moment, knowing that in 1953 is when my mom was born, this was her homeland, these are the streets that she walked, and then years later, in 1971 when she met my father there, these were the streets they walked. Call it destiny, call it God, whatever, I believe it was God, brought those two together to then, as we stepped foot on that soil, my mom could go, "This is where I was." She had a really hard childhood. And then see the blessing of just pushing through, seeing all her grandchildren, her son-in-laws, her family there. It felt like this full circle moment. My soul felt complete, like now I know my mom fully. This was her home. We all left feeling full and complete, and it's one of those things that's hard to put to words, even though I just rambled. It was so special. It was so special.
Kerry Diamond:
You did not ramble. That was beautiful.
Joanna Gaibes:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned food. We have a room full of culinary professionals right in front of us. What were some of the food highlights?
Joanna Gaibes:
When we were picking all the restaurants, I was a brat where I was like, "I don't want anything mixed. I just want my mom's Korean staples." So it was like the bulgogi, the kalbi, the banchan, all the things, japchae, bibimbap. I don't even know if I'm saying it right, that's just how my mom's always said it, but wanted just the truly traditional Korean food. And my mom, since all my babies were little, fed them her food, and she wanted them early on to acquire the palate for Korean food. And so it's their favorite. So the funniest thing would be to see all of her grandchildren. At the hotel we stayed at, Chip and my brother-in-law, David, would eat the pancakes, the waffles and the bacon, and then all the kids would be eating kimchi tofu soup, beans sprout soup, seaweed soup. And they're like, "Dad, why would we eat pancakes?" It was such a gift for my mom to see her influence in her quarter-Korean grandchildren's lives. It was just beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
So speaking of food, you have a new cookbook coming out next month. It's called “Magnolia Table, Volume 3: A Collection of Recipes For Gathering.” You've made a name for yourself as a design maven before moving into the food space. What made you want to write cookbooks?
Joanna Gaibes:
With my journey with design, it always led back to the heart of home, and it was always deeply personal for me, the work that I got to do, that I get to do within people's homes. So I always have to center or ground myself just within my own home. And one of the biggest pieces of home for me is food. And I think it was years ago that I remember my son, who is 18 now, was going to camp, I think it was like '11 or '12. And he'd never gone to camp. He was a homebody. And all of a sudden, all his friends peer pressured him. And it was a two-week camp trip. I remember the first week, you could send notes to your parents, and he didn't send a note, and I was like, "Oh gosh, good. He loves it." But then I'd go online and look at pictures. And if all the kids were smiling, Drake would be straight face trying to tell me something, and I was like, "Oh no, what's he doing? Maybe he didn't hear the 1, 2, 3."
The next week, every day, I start getting letters in the mail that said, "Mom, I need you to come pick me up. I miss your food." Then the second day, after that second week, "Mom, when I get home, I need you to make biscuits and gravy." The third day, "Mom, I don't understand why you're not here. Do you not love me? You need to come get me, but when I get home, can you make lemon pie?" So I have five, that I still treasure now, I should probably frame them, of his postcards. But for him, home was food. That was his comfort. And so the whole idea of why we're in this room is food is that for all of us. When I think of my childhood memories, I think of the food my mother cooked. So it was a natural progression, I think, of what I was just growing passionate about, along with just the garden. And so that's why I did cookbooks.
Kerry Diamond:
And tell us how the new one is different from the previous two.
Joanna Gaibes:
Yeah, I think every volume is maybe an evolution of what I'm growing into with food. I would say it's a lot like the design journey for me where in the beginning, I threw myself into it, but then when the show hit, I was like, "I don't think you can call me a designer. I didn't go to school for this." So I would say I was a decorator. And same with food. I'm like, "I don't know. I'm a home cook? What do you call me? Who knows? I love food." Every volume is just this journey for me as I became passionate about food. I still joke with the team, some of the recipes I shared in “Volume 1,” I'm like, "Can we delete those?" It was like, "Mashed potatoes: potatoes, salt and butter." I'm like, "You can't put that in a cookbook." I mean, hopefully everybody knows how to make mashed potatoes.
Kerry Diamond:
It's a recipe.
Joanna Gaibes:
It's a recipe. But “Volume 3,” what I love about “Volume 3” is the food team at Magnolia, we all started working on it right before the pandemic hit. And then when it hit, we were testing in our own kitchens, we were FaceTiming each other and comparing. And that was a moment where we all were craving community, being together, comfort. And so it took a while to get this one out the gate, but I think the heart of it was, again, just those moments and those times together. So I feel like this one feels even more special.
Kerry Diamond:
We've got a lot of cookbook authors. If we had the house lights up, you would see how many cookbook authors we have in the room, and they can all relate to that. This is the question I'm dying to know. Who are some of your culinary influences?
Joanna Gaibes:
Yes. Well, the panel that was up here, I'm just so proud of those women. Watching all of them in the way that they interact with food, the way they share food, it's like that mix of the knowledge they have, that intention and that heart. Something about that when you wrap together, it's fun to watch. And so it was fun to call each and every one of them and say, "Hi, I really admire you. Would you want to show on the network?" So I would say admire them for sure. Julia Child is someone I've admired for so long because it's something she took on later in her life. She really opened the door for so many to step into that space. We even get to have her shows on the network. So that feels like a true honor.
And then my mom, who I do believe in so many ways, there is a science to food. I believe that. I honor that. I'm like, "I'd love to go to culinary school one day." But then you watch my mom cook, there's no science. It's like throwing stuff, and I'm like, "Mom, I need that recipe." And she's like, "I don't know how to give it to you. You just do this." That's just another way where I'm like, I love that she cooks in that way with her heart. And anytime she cooks anything, it's gone within minutes. So I'd say she's also someone I truly admire because she does it with 100% love.
Kerry Diamond:
And I hope you all caught that the Julia Child shows are on the network.
Joanna Gaibes:
Yes, on the linear side. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Because if you want to see them... And I hadn't seen a lot of the early ones.
Joanna Gaibes:
My girls will just sit, watch them because she's just so entertaining. It's just real. I love it.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. It's so wonderful there's a home for them.
We'll be right back with today's guest. Today's show is presented by Reform, the design-led Scandinavian kitchen brand re-imagining what kitchens can be. Reform works with leading designers and architects from around the world to create kitchens that elevate your everyday life. Their modular kitchen collections come in bold color and material combinations to suit a variety of lifestyles, and you will love and appreciate Reform's, quality, craftsmanship, and attention to detail. Reform has seven showrooms in the US. You can find them in Dumbo, Philadelphia, Paramus, Santa Monica, DTLA, Costa Mesa, and Chicago, and they'll be opening in San Francisco very soon. All of their showrooms are open for walk-ins, or you can book a meeting with one of Reform's experienced kitchen planners who can help bring ideas and drawings to life. You can also visit the reform website at reformcph.com for design inspiration, browse the Reform kitchen collections, or head to the Discover section, my favorite, and see what the Reform kitchens look like in different homes and apartments. If a new kitchen is on your 2024 wishlist, consider Reform. Speaking of Reform, we hosted our Molly Baz issue launch party at the Reform showroom in Dumbo. Thank you so much to the team at Reform and to everyone who joined us for the holiday party. Needless to say, being surrounded by all that modern cabinetry and countertops and great organization systems has me rethinking my kitchen. Pay Reform a visit in person or virtually, and you will no doubt be similarly inspired.
I would love to talk to you about being an entrepreneur because, like I said, we've got a lot of cookbook authors. We've probably got about 700 entrepreneurs or would-be entrepreneurs sitting in this room.
Joanna Gaibes:
I love it. I love it.
Kerry Diamond:
You've had an incredible professional journey from CBS News intern right here in New York, to shop owner, to blogger, to becoming one of the most influential folks in media, design, and food today. I would love to know, in what ways you have become a better business person and a smarter entrepreneur since opening that first Magnolia shop in 2003?
Joanna Gaibes:
I mean, I can feel them now, just thinking about just the nerves and all of that. I think in 2003, because I didn't train myself for business, even retail, I worked at my dad's tire shop for 10 years before that. I always held two dreams. I always told my dad, "Dad, I'll take over." He didn't have boys. "I'll take over the tire shop. I want my dad to be proud of me." So I had that and I said that, but internally, I was like, "I don't want to sell tires for the rest of my life." But I couldn't tell my dad that. So when I came to New York, he was like, "Oh, great, I'm going to lose my daughter to news." And so I always had the tire thing happening here, and I learned a little bit about retail in that way, but I truly thought I was going to get into broadcast journalism.
I'd studied it for five or six years. I was pretty passionate about it. But it wasn't until I got to New York and I had that internship that I realized, not that there's anything wrong with news. I mean, I work for 48 Hours. So if we all know, it's that investigative crime, cold cases. I'd come home feeling like I just need some light. And being in the biggest city in my world, from Waco, Texas, I felt so lonely. It's like all these people are everywhere, but for whatever reason, I didn't feel seen. It was just like, "How do you make friends in a city like New York when you're 21 years old?" I'm sure most of you know how to do that. I was just a little more awkward. But it wasn't until those moments on the weekends, it was back when SoHo was a little less commercial and there was the locally owned boutiques.
When I'd step into that space, I would feel so at home. And I didn't know how to... I was like, "What is that feeling?" And so this isn't even your question. Your question was how have I evolved? Okay, I'll tell you how I evolved. In the early days, that first year when I finally decided I want to create that experience here in Waco that I felt in New York City, I only knew the basic numbers of to pay my bank note and the electrical bill, and I had to do $275 a day in retail sales. And so every day, my head was down, and that was my focus. I didn't realize you had to have a vision or a goal for your business to keep growing, to keep moving forward.
So I'd say 20 years later, the one thing I've learned is the day to day can be hard. It can be a grind. If you don't have that vision, even if it's a year out, three years out, five, for me, it's always been a three-year thing, if you don't have that vision, your head's going to always be down, and the right now is going to feel hard. I remember every day in that first year, I would count the tickets at the end of the day, hope for that $250, but I was lacking the big picture. And so now, I'd say what's shifted is, "Hey, days, months, even years are going to feel hard, but as long as I have that vision and what I'm working towards, that's going to make me a better business person."
Kerry Diamond:
So you have so many... You had no employees back then?
Joanna Gaibes:
No, it was just me and Chip.
Kerry Diamond:
So now you have-
Joanna Gaibes:
Which Chip was like a child. Sometimes he like, "Let's go to lunch, just put a post-it note on the door." And I'm like, "No." He's like, "Well, that's what I used to do." I was like, "I'm not doing that." I mean, we have two different philosophies on business.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh, I love that. So we know you have so many employees today. I'd love to know, how'd your leadership style evolve?
Joanna Gaibes:
Being married to someone like Chip, you can easily hide behind, he's the leader, he's so gregarious, he's the visionary. He can get in front of our entire team and make people cry and make them want to run through walls. I'm always like, "Don't give me the mic. Don't make me into this. I'm just not the closer." So for years, I was like, "Chip's the lead. I like to be behind the scenes. I love the details." But I'd say about five years ago, I have a lot of internal dialogues with myself, I started feeling this thing rise up in me that it's like, "You are also a leader. You may not lead like your husband, you're quieter, but you need to rise up, and you need to own that and feel confident in that and not bashful about it or, 'I'm not a leadership. Chip is'."
That's what I always did. Mainly for my daughters, I want them to see that, the women that work with me, I want them to be empowered by that. And so I would say the difference is just the ownership of that, that we're all leaders in our own unique, beautiful way. And the second we own that, I mean, stuff's going to happen.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to go back to the internship for a second because you decided not to pursue a media career despite studying communications, and like you said, having this dream about being in broadcast television. And today, ironically, you have one of the most influential media networks around that was clearly CBS's loss. You were talking about changing course after internship and explains a little bit, but having to give up on a dream and pivot, that's something a lot of us face. How did you deal with that?
Joanna Gaibes:
For the longest time, I felt there were two dreams. One being a dream of just pleasing my parents, and honestly, the tire shop thing, the day I told my dad, "Hey Dad, I don't want to do this anymore." I mean, he did it for 10 years. The poor guy was waiting for me. Six months later, he sold the business. And I mean, he now works at Magnolia with me selling candles. So it's a full circle moment, but it was hard to know as the middle child, the kid who always wanted to please my parents, that was really hard to face and just see. I'm sure there was a bit of loss to my father knowing that that dream was going to die there with that. But then even with the journalism thing, my parents and the investment in the five years of going to school for broadcast journalism, and then all of a sudden going, "I'm not doing that either."
But because life is so interesting, the idea that years later, somehow I'm now getting to incorporate tire sales because of retail. I mean, you buy something for this, you get a sell over that. Just the knowledge of that. But also the stuff I learned in broadcast journalism to just help me with the network side of our business was a full circle moment. So I feel like what I've learned is just nothing's wasted. Nothing is wasted. So when you go with your heart, you go with your gut. You may have to wait years to see it come full circle, but keep going.
Kerry Diamond:
If you were a college student today, what would you major in?
Joanna Gaibes:
I love that question. I'd go to culinary school. One day, I'm going to go to culinary school because I want to merge that heart and intention and love for food, but also with the knowledge of it. I do admire people who've gone to school and they know that science, and that there's something about that that I feel like is equally as beautiful. So one day, I'd love to do that. I always ask Chip if we can go to the same place where Julia Child went. And none of my kids want to go with me, so I have to wait for them to all be out of the house.
But also psychology. I think there's something... Whether you're in retail or food, there's something that's just so fascinating about the human mind, the human heart, the human soul, and the idea that even as a mother of five, for me to just blanket statement being a mother and teaching my... I have to cater to each kid. All five kids are so different. And then you take that same idea into business with all the employees that we have, you can't blanket statement leadership either, and then you go even further and you just think about the world we're in. It's just once we all realize that we're all so individually unique and beautiful and that we're not the same and we probably shouldn't be the same, there's something if we can tap into that, that I feel like will be a beautiful thing.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your Magnolia shows for a minute. I love the food shows, obviously, as much as the design shows. And I think everyone got a sense from the panel up here, just how special the people are on the network. I'm just so curious, how did you choose... What were you looking for for folks to star on these shows?
Joanna Gaibes:
A lot of what I was... Well, I don't know if I can say this out loud. I'm like, "Jet lag." A lot of what we were looking for were people who weren't looking to be on TV. So in a lot of ways, whether it was social media where we found people, or in magazine articles or even newspaper articles, you're following along and you're watching someone just do their life without an end goal in mind, but just, "I'm doing this because I love it and I want to share that gift with others." These people started rising and you started seeing these specific people, these storytellers. And I would say that's really the base for us, is that. And that's why it took a little harder to get this thing launched because most the people that are on the network now started with a no. They said, "I'm too busy. I can't imagine... What cameras am I-"
Kerry Diamond:
Because they said no to you?
Joanna Gaibes:
They said no. They said, "That seems scary. I've heard production is... There's more time..." And so it was us talking people into, "We aren't going to script you. We're not going to say, 'Hey, for commercial break,' throw a teaser out there. It's truly, we want to follow your life. We want to follow what you're passionate about. If you're cooking in the kitchen and your kid walks in, let that happen." Just really hoping that these storytellers just trust us with their story. And now, three years later, when we look at the Magnolia Network family as a whole, it's a beautiful family of humans that we're so proud of that are truly doing work that they're passionate about, and I hope, I know are inspiring others to do the same thing.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about the whole organization because there's so much to the Magnolia organization. If it were a house, what would your plan be for the next few years? Maintenance? Renovation? Expansion? Redecorate?
Joanna Gaibes:
That's an amazing question. I love that. I think maintenance is always happening. It's got to. So I think always maintenance. If it were up to me, I would say... What did you say? Expansion.
Kerry Diamond:
Expansion?
Joanna Gaibes:
Sure, let's expand. Let's get a little bigger. But the foundation's got to be right. And I think that's what is important about anything that we do, is it's okay to go back and say, "This was the foundation five years ago. We got to fill these cracks. We've got to bring in new support, so that'll support what's next." And so I'd say right now, we're in that process of maintenance in that what we want to do next, we want to make sure the foundation is right, so it can support what's coming.
Kerry Diamond:
Would Chip have said demolition?
Joanna Gaibes:
There's always going to be a little demo in there for him, but I think he's all about expanding. Who knows?
Kerry Diamond:
So tell us one more thing on your bucket list. I know you said culinary school is up there.
Joanna Gaibes:
Oh, barrel racing.
Kerry Diamond:
Barrel racing?
Joanna Gaibes:
While I still have my long hair. It's a dream. I actually have a fear of horses, so it's as only I can do. It's like, "I'm terrified of horses, but I want to be a barrel racer." There's actually a woman who lives a couples doors down from us on the farm across from the highway, and she was a barrel racer.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, I'm so embarrassed. I'm such a city slicker.
Joanna Gaibes:
Oh, no. Barrel racing.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't know what barrel racing is.
Joanna Gaibes:
Okay, so it's when you get a really fast horse and your hair just blows... You look really cool on a horse, and they shoot out of the gate, and there's like three barrels, and you have to just go out and go around each barrel full speed without knocking the barrel over. But they always wear these cool outfits with fringe. That's a dream of mine, but she keeps saying, "I want to teach you how to barrel race." But I asked if we could start on a small horse first. I'm terrified of horses. But who knows? Maybe in two years, I will be a barrel racer.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Barrel racing and culinary school. You heard it here first. Was I the only one who didn't know what barrel racing-
Joanna Gaibes:
I mean-
Kerry Diamond:
Am I? Okay, okay.
Joanna Gaibes:
It's all right. It's Texas.
Kerry Diamond:
Some of my city slicker friends are in the front row. Okay, everybody, this is the last question. I'm so sad to say those words. As the world gets more and more virtual and more technology obsessed, I'd love to know your prediction for the IRL world that you, me, everyone in this room treasures so much. What is the future of community, connection, and gathering?
Joanna Gaibes:
For me personally, I feel like whether it was five years ago, 50 years, a hundred years ago, of course, things are getting busier, more complicated, and more distracting. But I feel like from day one, community and connection is something you have to fight for. It's funny because I love songs from the '70s, and I'm like, "Chip, this is the same stuff we're going through that they..." It was just these reoccurring themes in society. So it's like we're always going to have to fight for some of these things that seem like patterns just in culture. And so I really feel like what I loved about just this event is knowing I was going to be in a room with all of you who I truly believe are fighting for that connection and community, the value of that.
We all know what it feels like to scroll in the dark and say no to something, and then you're done going, "Geez, why do I feel a little lonelier? Why do I feel a little more depressed? Why do I..." And we can choose that, or we can say yes, and be in community, and have that connection and truly be filled up. I believe that when you have a room this size with people that are saying, "We're going to fight for this," I have so much hope for that no matter what. I'm not putting a headset on and living in the AI world.
And so if that's ending up how we're all doing it, hopefully we still put those things down and fight for that community and that connection because that's truly where life is. That's where growth is. I feel very hopeful for it. But you do have to choose that and you have to fight for it, which means more supper clubs, taking meals to your neighbors, doing all the things that you guys all write about, that you are all passionate about. So just keep doing that work, and I feel like it's always going to be more beautiful than that other stuff.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. Well, keep fighting the good fight, everybody. You heard it from Joanna Gaines. Joanna, thank you so much.
Joanna Gaibes:
Thank you, Kerry.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Special thanks to Joanna Gaines and her team. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Joseph Hazan is the studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. Our producer is Catherine Baker, our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You're the Bombe.