MARIAH NESTON & MICHELLE PALAZZO TRANSCRIPT
Kerry Diamond:
Hi everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. Each week we feature interviews with the coolest culinary personalities around.
Joining me today are two folks spending a lot of time at Rockefeller Center, in particular the new restaurant Le Rock, which just opened here the other month. My guests are pastry chefs Michelle Palazzo and Mariah Neston. Michelle is the director of pastry operations for Le Rock and its sister spots Frenchette Restaurant and Frenchette Bakery, also in Manhattan. And Mariah meanwhile is the executive pastry chef at Le Rock.
These two make some of my absolute favorite desserts around. They are lovely people and I am so happy we get to learn more about them. Michelle and Mariah talk pastry, mentorship and restaurant life, so stay tuned.
Today's show is supported by Whole Foods Market, where you can find lots of Cherry Bombe's favorite female forward food, drink, and frozen treat brands, including La Newyorkina. La Newyorkina was founded by Fany Gerson, the Mexican dessert authority, who was also a Cherry Bombe magazine cover star. I hope you all saw that gorgeous cover.
Fany really knows her stuff when it comes to Mexican-inspired sweets and treats. She's authored three books on the subject and launched La Newyorkina as a way to bring the delicious sweetness and rich culture of her native Mexico to the city she now calls home. Whole Foods carries the mini La Newyorkina paletas in mouth-watering flavors like mango chili, pink limeade—there's a touch of hibiscus in that one—horchata, and Mexican chocolate. I love them all.
You can find La Newyorkina and other Cherry Bombe faves at Whole Foods Market locations in the New York area or by visiting wholefoodsmarket.com. Part of Whole Foods mission is to feature local brands, so be sure to seek out what's local and special at the Whole Foods Market nearest you.
One more thing before Michelle and Mariah, I would love for you to sign up for Cherry Bombe's newsletter. Head on over to cherrybombe.com and you'll get our fun Friday newsletter each week, plus special announcements. This way you won't miss out on any upcoming event, great podcast or other news from Cherry Bombe HQ.
For example, we'll be announcing the lineup and ticket sales for our November Cooks and Books Festival very soon. So head on over to cherrybombe.com and sign up. Now, let's check in with today's guests. Michelle Palazzo, Mariah Neston, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Mariah Neston:
Thank you.
Michelle Palazzo:
Thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
Not only is it your first time on Radio Cherry Bombe, but it is your first podcast for each of you.
Michelle Palazzo:
Slightly horrifying.
Kerry Diamond:
And you look like it's your first podcast. You both look like you're being tortured.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's like a little sweaty. It's just like I haven't seen sunlight in a couple days.
Kerry Diamond:
Michelle, let's start with you. When did you know you wanted to be a pastry chef?
Michelle Palazzo:
I think at a pretty young age. I wanted to get into some realm of cooking. I went to cooking camp as a kid, which I don't know where you find that. Some Viking stove cooking camp. I don't know the company that makes… they had a three-week incentive for young adults.
Kerry Diamond:
They're based in Mississippi. Did you go to Mississippi?
Michelle Palazzo:
No. It was in Garden City.
Kerry Diamond:
Right. Because I know we've talked about where we each grew up and I was like, it's not really common for a kid from Long Island to go to camp in Mississippi.
Michelle Palazzo:
No, no, no, no. Yeah, it was in Long Island and I always wanted to either get something involved in the arts or culinary. Either I wanted to go to art school, which I ended up doing, but I kind of fell into pastry just because I felt like those two worlds kind of came together.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow. Viking, what a gift you gave to the culinary world.
Michelle Palazzo:
I need an oven, please.
Kerry Diamond:
That's very cool. Mariah, how about you?
Mariah Neston:
Same thing. At a very young age, there wasn't any other option for me. On my fridge at home, there's a paper that I wrote in sixth grade about how much I wanted to be a chef and it's still there.
Kerry Diamond:
So wait, you said there was no other real option for you. Explain that.
Mariah Neston:
I didn't want to do anything else. It was either going to be pastry or savory. At some point I decided to go on the sweet side, but always and forever.
Kerry Diamond:
So interesting. What was kind of the gateway for you? Were you a little kid watching the Food Network? You didn't get sent off to cooking camp like Michelle?
Mariah Neston:
I did do a summer camp at Johnson & Wales, but I think a little bit maybe closer to high school age. My grandmother was an excellent baker. Food is very much part of my family's home life. I don't want to say it started with an Easy-Bake Oven, but it kind of did.
Michelle Palazzo:
It starts with an Easy-Bake Oven.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you have one?
Michelle Palazzo:
Of course, I melted so many things on it.
Kerry Diamond:
And did you two kind of start with the baked Duncan Hines, Betty Crocker mixes?
Michelle Palazzo:
A lot of Duncan Hines. I mean Duncan Hines is delicious. It's easy and I mean, how can you go wrong with Duncan Hines? Yellow cake? Amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
I just had a flashback to the box brownie mix. I mean, I hate to say this because I'm in the presence of pastry greatness, but it's kind of hard to improve on those Duncan Hines brownies.
Michelle Palazzo:
They're good for a reason. I mean, sometimes in nostalgia and what you crave, it's like that's what I want. You want crappy box cake that's delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
It's comfort food for a reason. I would love to know what makes a good pastry chef. Mariah, let's throw this one to you.
Mariah Neston:
I would say the ability to adapt and also to create and to lead. Michelle and I both come from restaurant pastry departments and the environment is not built for pastry almost ever, except for the kitchen at Le Rock. I have everything I could possibly want, but we're constantly fighting humidity, heat, and then egos.
Kerry Diamond:
I don't think I've ever had anyone who works in a restaurant come on the show and say, I have everything I want.
Mariah Neston:
I think I have almost anything I want.
Michelle Palazzo:
When they were planning the kitchen, which I'm very thankful, we kind of got choice of what we wanted to put in there, which is such a luxury and is kind of a testament to the people we work for and also our hard work, I guess. So that's…
Kerry Diamond:
The beauty of getting in on the ground level. Michelle, what do you think makes a good pastry chef?
Michelle Palazzo:
I think being creative and working with seasonality ingredients. I find that sometimes pastry chefs, we’re kind of limited to the things that we get chocolate from places that are far away or they're not locally sourced or anything like that. So it's nice to have things, especially in New York, we're able to go to the market, I guess be inspired by those people. And also, I guess also working in Manhattan, you're being pushed creatively all the time and working with chefs.
Kerry Diamond:
Michelle, tell us what Frenchette is all about for folks who haven't visited.
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean it's a kind of a spin on a classic bistro. Again, it's like seasonality is super important. I mean the savory team, they change their menu probably three times a week, sometimes even more. It really depends on again, what is dictated at the market, where they're getting their fish from, meat and all that.
So I always describe it as live jazz because it's always on the fly. There's like a new wine. Things are always constantly rotating. So there's this sense of like there's definitely a rhythm and an energy to Frenchette that I really admire. And I put that into my desserts as well because I also want to kind of keep up with that rhythm and flow.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a great description. You can feel that when you sit in the dining room there. Absolutely. What are some of your signature desserts?
Michelle Palazzo:
My signature dessert is definitely a pistachio Paris-Brest. It's like the one dessert that I wasn't really expecting to become a thing. And I love choux pastry. It's probably my favorite component of desserts. When we were kind of discussing, I knew we kind of wanted to go into this classic French plated dessert. And when we developed, we were like, "Oh, should we go hazelnut? What type of nut should we do?"
Michelle Palazzo:
And we were like, "Let's get the best Sicilian pistachios we can possibly find and make this thing a full experience." So yeah, that pistachio Paris-Brest, it's the only dessert that I kind of keep on our menu. It's been on for four and a half years or so, for as long as we pretty much open.
Kerry Diamond:
So that's the only one you don't change?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah. I have a chocolate mousse that sometimes I keep on, but for a lunch. But predominantly, that is the only dessert that I keep on. Everything else rotates seasonally.
Kerry Diamond:
It's such a challenge when you go to Frenchette because all the food is so good, the menu is always changing. You want to order everything and you have to remember to save room for dessert.
Michelle Palazzo:
I'm so impressed with people all the time. I'm like, so you add this five-course, four-course meal that is heavily involved with butter. It's rich food in some capacity. And then you're like, "Okay, I'm going to end my night with a pistachio buttercream donut thing." And people order dessert. I mean there's always room for dessert.
Kerry Diamond:
There is always room for dessert. That can be the title of your cookbook or your memoir. There's always room for dessert. Let's talk about the Paris-Brest a little bit because it's a very specific dessert with a very specific history.
Michelle Palazzo:
Like most French desserts, it's usually named after something or an event or some princess or something. This one was named after a bike race, so from Paris to Brest. And it's supposed to symbolize a bike wheel. Choux pastry is a…
Kerry Diamond:
A cream puff, éclair?
Michelle Palazzo:
A cream puff, éclair. It's a very eggy type of product. I don't know how to describe…
Kerry Diamond:
Someone told us they liked to eat it raw. Who was that? Was it Claire Saffitz who maybe said that? Claire, apologize if I'm saying that and you've never told me that. But do people eat it raw?
Michelle Palazzo:
Oh, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Huh, never crossed my mind. And I love raw cookie dough.
Michelle Palazzo:
One of our chefs, Lee Hanson, I've never seen somebody eat more raw dough. I'm like, "Oh, it's a new dough, you got to try it raw."
Mariah Neston:
Really can't be good for him.
Kerry Diamond:
And it's not a small dessert.
Michelle Palazzo:
Oh, no. It's substantial.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, it is like a large donut.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's a large hollow donut that we then top with a crispy cookie layer on top and then we fill it with pistachio caramel, like a crunchy pistachio and caramel filling and then well, topping and then we fill it with a very rich French-style buttercream, which is just eggs, sugar, a lot of butter, and pistachio paste.
Kerry Diamond:
And not to embarrass you, but I have eaten a lot of desserts in my lifetime and I've been very lucky to eat at a lot of nice places. I think it's one of the world's best desserts.
Michelle Palazzo:
Thank you. That's so nice.
Kerry Diamond:
It really is.
Michelle Palazzo:
I guess because you get used to looking at something all the time and it's so rich. I guess we're... I love watching... There's this one gentleman that comes in all the time and he sits at the bar and he just eats that. I'm like, "Are you okay?"
Kerry Diamond:
I love how surprised you are. It's like you gave birth to this exceptional child and you're almost surprised. But anyway, if you're coming to New York or you live in New York, put it on your list of must-dry desserts that are here. You mentioned that you changed things seasonally. What are some things on right now?
Michelle Palazzo:
Right now we have a version of a peach melba just because obviously we're getting all the beautiful peaches and nectarines and all that stone fruit. And then raspberries are obviously, we always have a Tristar strawberry dessert on the summer to support our friends at Rick Bishop of Mountain Sweet Berry Farms there.
Kerry Diamond:
Why do pastry chefs love that Tristar strawberry so much?
Michelle Palazzo:
It's the best strawberry. And he also has mara des bois that are... They taste like grapes and you're just like, this is so magical. So it's an easy thing to want to kind of add to a dessert. We always have a seasonal chocolate dessert. That one I always feel like is the hardest one for whatever reason.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting. Why?
Michelle Palazzo:
I sometimes feel like chocolate needs to be chocolate and then when you try to add fruit sometimes, it kind of messes and you’re like, "Oh, I just want like a really..." I mean, doesn't everyone just want molten lava cake at the end of the day?
Kerry Diamond:
The most pastry chef thing you could have said. Chocolate just needs to be chocolate. Is that what you said? What do you mean by that?
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean, if someone just gave me a pile of chocolate, that's all I really want. That's what I crave. And so for dessert, if someone just gives me like a ... If I had a chocolate bar, I would just be totally happy with that.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. Okay. Let's also talk about Frenchette Bakery because you know that's another one of my absolute favorites. I think the canelé at Frenchette Bakery is just one of the best bites in New York City and also dollar for dollar. Sometimes, I think you two are in the fine dining realm that can seem not accessible to a lot of people. And that's one thing I love about Frenchette Bakery, that for a few dollars, you can go and have this canelé that is just a magical bite. What's your involvement with Frenchette Bakery?
Michelle Palazzo:
So I do all the pastry, all like the viennoiserie. It was a joint collaboration with our head baker, Peter Edris, who is definitely the brains of that operation. And then I just creatively help with all of like, so we did the pistachio croissant together, we did the canelé, all the egg savories, all of the kind of more the viennoiserie stuff is a little bit more tied to me. But everywhere…
Kerry Diamond:
Those egg savory things for breakfast. Oh, my gosh, with the market greens?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, delish.
Kerry Diamond:
So good. So delicious.
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean, little runny egg? Come on.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you go about developing the desserts? Walk us through the process.
Michelle Palazzo:
Kind of starts with the market, which in the winter times can be incredibly challenging. So I kind of start there and then I know what our chefs are looking for as far as plated desserts. And I also read a lot of cookbooks and try to bring things from the past to the present and try to do spins on classic French desserts.
Michelle Palazzo:
So it kind of stems from there, and then it becomes a little mad scientist where you just start creating things and you hope it works out. Sometimes it doesn't and it's frustrating and it's a big creative long process. But sometimes I usually have a vision and I'm just going to go for it and figure it out.
Kerry Diamond:
And do you have to present the desserts to a team, to your bosses?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, I usually do it with Riad and Lee, who are our chefs, which they're super involved. When Mariah and I were pretty much working together, she would be the first round of taste testers, so that was always kind of fun. And Frenchette's pastry kitchen is very open. I mean, we don't really have a pastry area, so there was always a constant flow of feedback, whether good or bad, of people wanting to taste something. So it kind of always stems from that. And then we have a formal tasting and then it goes to the ringer of like, "Oh, let's tweak this or let's do this."
Kerry Diamond:
How big is the pastry team at Frenchette today?
Michelle Palazzo:
Four people, not including me. I have a sous chef who's been, actually, she started Frenchette prior to me even working there. She kind of came with the territory. She's awesome. Shout out to her. And then I have three other cooks that are wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
And this is our embarrassed Mariah moment of the show. Did you hire Mariah?
Michelle Palazzo:
We were talking about this last night because I was like, "Mariah, how did you come into my life?" Our chef, Riad Nasr, somehow got her number. She was looking for work and it was kind of like a part-time thing. And she kind of stepped into Frenchette and I was like, wow, this entity of a person that I can just fully rely on. She was just such an easy person to get along with and also creatively work together. So it's been a wonderful working environment with Mariah.
Kerry Diamond:
So you didn't hire her, but what did you see in her as a pastry chef? What kind of skills and just know-how did she bring to the job?
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean, I knew immediately she came from a background that she can just walk into a kitchen and she knew how to work a certain way. And I also felt like she could support me in a way that I didn't really have in the past. It was just nice to have somebody that you're like, oh, if I take a day, I know that she has my back and I have her back. And just also creatively, when we started to get to like, okay, she's became the pastry sous chef and giving the opportunity to work together on things. I was like, oh, this person obviously has a vision and has a voice. And it was an easy step into a chef position.
Kerry Diamond:
The first time I met you two was at this dinner we did with Pellegrino. It was our mentor-mentee dinner. And you brought Mariah as your mentee. I thought that was really special.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, I mean she's my ride or die. It's just nice to have somebody that you can bring to these events or just have somebody that is, you feel like a partner almost. She could hang with the rest of us and…
Kerry Diamond:
All right, Michelle, I'm going to give you a break. You did very well. Congratulations.
Michelle Palazzo:
Horrifying.
Kerry Diamond:
Not at all. First in many podcasts, I'm predicting it right now. Okay. Mariah, your turn. Are you ready? You look scared.
Mariah Neston:
I am a little scared.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the conversation about Le Rock start with you?
Mariah Neston:
For me, I think it started with the announcement that we were opening a property in Rockefeller Center. I love Frenchette, but my background was in very large restaurants. And all I said was I want in, in some capacity.
Kerry Diamond:
So you threw your name in the ring essentially?
Mariah Neston:
Yeah. And they were super receptive to that. And then a few months later, they told me that I had the job.
Kerry Diamond:
How was Le Rock described to you?
Mariah Neston:
Initially, it was a French bistro. The thing that really attracted me to it was that they said that they wanted to give opportunity for anyone walking around in the plaza to come and have a meal at any time of day, which right now seems a little scary. But I like that it was, or it is supposed to accommodate foodies, but also people that are coming to visit New York.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you feel about leaving Frenchette and leading your own team?
Mariah Neston:
I was very sad to leave Frenchette. I worked there for two or three years. I was working side by side with Michelle and that had been so great and I also made friends. I would probably have friends for the rest of my life with. But I was very excited. I am very excited to lead my team. It's a little nerve wracking, but I see it as a challenge.
Kerry Diamond:
What made you feel you were ready to lead a team?
Mariah Neston:
I think it comes with a confidence that comes with the experience. Constantly, I feel like I'm faking it until I make it.
Kerry Diamond:
You spent a few years at one of the top restaurants in New York City. You still have a little bit of that inside you?
Mariah Neston:
Yeah, of course. I'm constantly reminding myself even when the situation's tough that I'm here for a reason and to know my worth and to keep going.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Let's talk about some fun stuff. Dessert menu development at Le Rock. Walk us through that process.
Mariah Neston:
I think it started immediately when I knew that we had a project opening. With the opening, it continuously got pushed back so I was testing things for different seasons that wasn't... So that was a little bit of a heartbreaker, but we adjusted. But just like how Michelle goes about her recipe development, it starts with an idea and then giving that idea to Chef Lee and Riad and seeing where they want us to go from there.
Kerry Diamond:
What is on the dessert menu at Le Rock?
Mariah Neston:
We have a buckwheat profiterole, which is my favorite thing on the menu, I would say.
Kerry Diamond:
Why buckwheat? You wanted something a little different, more substantial than the traditional profiterole?
Mariah Neston:
Yes. Michelle can also say that I was a little bit self-conscious about putting profiterole on the menu because it is something that in its purest form is extremely simple. And I was just looking a way to give a nod to flavor that we used a lot at Frenchette and also elevating it to our standard.
Kerry Diamond:
What's inside that profiterole?
Mariah Neston:
Salted caramel ice cream, so good.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's the best salted caramel ice cream. Honestly, it's so good. It's the only ice cream that I've dipped my spoon into. I'm like, oh damn. We all eat the end of it, at the end service. It's fun.
Kerry Diamond:
You look very excited as Mariah was describing it.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yes, it's so good.
Kerry Diamond:
And chocolate sauce on top?
Mariah Neston:
Yes. Chocolate sauce on top that is made with buckwheat, honey, and Valrhona chocolate. And then we also have buckwheat groats that are candied and fried, sprinkled throughout there for a little crunchy bit.
Kerry Diamond:
Yum.
Mariah Neston:
Then we have the baba.
Michelle Palazzo:
Lady Baba.
Mariah Neston:
Lady Baba.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, we call her Lady Baba now.
Kerry Diamond:
What's in the Lady Baba?
Mariah Neston:
It's a traditional yeast leavened baba cake. It's soaked in a simple syrup of génépi, but then the special part…
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, you have to go back. A simple syrup of génépi. What is that?
Mariah Neston:
I just threw the stick out there. It's sugar, water, a little vanilla, and then a génépi liqueur.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell me what génépi is, I don't know what that is.
Mariah Neston:
So génépi is a herbal liqueur. It's similar to chartreuse, but we would say it's sweeter and a little bit more floral than chartreuse.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, beautiful.
Mariah Neston:
So initially, the baba was framed around green chartreuse because we love it so much as a company, but a part of being a pastry chef is adapting and chartreuse is getting very, very difficult to get in the U.S. We took that and figured out how we could make it better with using less chartreuse.
Kerry Diamond:
So this is a chartreuse shortage. Say that three times…
Michelle Palazzo:
Those two are just like... You're like it's summer in Italy. We're not doing this.
Kerry Diamond:
And isn't there a mustard shortage too? What are you doing in fine dining now? It must be really hard.
Mariah Neston:
Mustard shortage.
Kerry Diamond:
No. Is that made up?
Michelle Palazzo:
I don't know.
Mariah Neston:
There is a mustard shortage.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's so funny.
Kerry Diamond:
All the things you have to keep on top of them. Okay, what else? Lady Baba. What's next?
Mariah Neston:
And we have a mignardise tower. So that is a full tower of mini petit fours and confections. It's meant to be something that you can get with a group of friends or your family and taste a lot of different textures and flavors.
Kerry Diamond:
Well that's fun. What's the most popular so far?
Mariah Neston:
Definitely the profiterole.
Kerry Diamond:
No surprise, right? Okay. I want to talk about how you two are different pastry chefs today than when you started out. Michelle, we gave you a little break. We're going to go back to you. How are you different today?
Michelle Palazzo:
I think more confident. When I started Frenchette, I thought I wasn't even going to work in food anymore. I kind of had an experience where I was just like, I'm done working in food. So I was coming from a place where I was like, I don't know if this is for me. So then to get the opportunity and go full force in such a way, I think I've gained just so much more confidence. And I always admired chefs that have a particular voice and you can always see the food that they make looks like theirs.
So I think I've developed a style now. I know what I look for. I know what I'm naturally attracted to. And then I think just being more confident in leading people, trying to make a better work environment and keeping people happy. In the beginning it's like you're leading blindly sometimes, and you're in your own little pastry world. And now I feel like I'm in a rhythm and flow and I kind of know what I'm doing a little bit more.
Kerry Diamond:
It's nice that you got your groove back when you went to Frenchette.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, which I know. I got really lucky because I know a lot of people get burnt out and move careers. I mean, this is all I've done for 14 years. So to get that an opportunity like that was on a whim, and it's been a wonderful working environment ever since.
Kerry Diamond:
And to have it be so well received.
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean, I think Pete Wells came in on my second day. I don't think I was even hired yet.
Kerry Diamond:
No pressure. Pete is the restaurant critic for The New York Times.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, it was like full force. And I just think to be jolted like that was just such a wonderful experience, creatively too.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah, how about you? How are you different today than when you started out?
Mariah Neston:
I'm definitely gaining my confidence. But since starting at Frenchette, I think I'm a lot more patient managing, leading a team. Just remembering that everyone is here just like I am to be a part of a common goal and to further education and keep going.
Kerry Diamond:
I'd love to know about your culinary school experiences. Michelle, where did you go?
Michelle Palazzo:
I went to Institute of Culinary Education in Manhattan. I was straight out of high school. I would say I did not take it very seriously at all. I think I was just 18 and just wanted to be in Manhattan and go out and party. But I think I wanted to do it. So I got along with all of my chefs really well. I went to Italy with one of my chefs. I had really wonderful teachers.
So I mean I'm sure I was such a pain because it was a little bit of a weird transitional time for me. But I knew I wanted to stick with it. I mean culinary school, it does teach you how to kind of be in kitchens because I mean, I can attest as an 18-, 19-year-old, walking into a professional kitchen. It can be incredibly intimidating. So it just at least teaches you just being in a space like that and how to deal with the stress or that type of environment.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah, where did you go?
Mariah Neston:
I went to the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, New York.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you wind up there?
Mariah Neston:
Actually, it's my grandmother who was very big into baking and an amazing baker. When I told her that I really wanted to bake, she's like, "You can go nowhere else." It's a premier school, and she's the first one that brought me there actually.
Kerry Diamond:
That's amazing. Yeah, that's super cute that your grandmother even knew about that. Like what Michelle said, that it really prepared her for how to walk into a kitchen. What did you take from the experience?
Mariah Neston:
On a technical level, that's something that the CIA is very good about teaching, is all the technique. I think the thing that maybe is always missing from school is about walking into a restaurant kitchen and what to expect. I don't think anything can really prepare you for that. Maybe it is better to go straight for restaurants. There's a labor shortage everywhere.
Kerry Diamond:
So you can learn on the job?
Mariah Neston:
You can definitely learn on the job.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you think you could be where you are today if you hadn't gone to culinary school?
Mariah Neston:
I think so, but I know that I learn better in a classroom environment. I am very fortunate that I was able to go. But on a financial level, it's definitely something to consider.
Kerry Diamond:
Michelle, could you be where you are today without culinary school?
Michelle Palazzo:
I think so. If you're not going to go the realm of a culinary school, I think you have to be really diligent about finding a mentor then, and finding someone who's willing to teach somebody. You can walk into a kitchen, if you don't have somebody that is going to literally hold your hand and teach you a couple things fundamentally, you're going to kind of get lost in the shuffle.
So I mean even I started at culinary school, because again I was a child, 18, I was like 19, that's full industry, full New York City, Manhattan. Finding a mentor chef was my biggest priority and really kind of starting over a little bit and getting that form back.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you find one?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yes. Erin Kanagy-Loux was my mentor and somebody who I look up to tremendously. She showed me a lot and was super patient with me, and I did a lot of growing up with her. So to test, she helped me quite a bit.
Kerry Diamond:
Where did you two work together?
Michelle Palazzo:
At Reynard at The Wythe Hotel. I worked with her for about five years and she really just transformed my world as far as a chef. She was very much about seasonality and had a completely different style that I was exposed to, and I owe her a lot.
Kerry Diamond:
That's amazing that you can say she transformed your world.
Michelle Palazzo:
Completely.
Kerry Diamond:
Great to have someone like that in your life.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, I'm lucky.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah, how about you? Do you have a mentor?
Mariah Neston:
I would say Michelle is one of my mentors. I definitely could not have gotten to the position I'm currently in without her. She's been my biggest advocate.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I love that.
Michelle Palazzo:
It means a lot.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm sure it does. I'm sure it does, a lot of responsibility.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, I mean it's easy with her though. So I was in her shoes not too long ago, so I know what it's like. And just to kind of see somebody blossom is just really rewarding and really nice. So whatever I could do.
Kerry Diamond:
I'd love to know who you two admire in the dessert world. It doesn't have to be someone you've worked for. Mariah, who do you love and look up to or love their books or what they're making?
Mariah Neston:
I'm really loving that pastry chefs are taking their platforms, and the team behind Bakers Against Racism have taken their platform and their talent and have been able to merge those two things together for a really great message. And I'm really appreciative of what they've done for, I guess, the situation but also for our industry and showing that we can do more than just put up cake.
Kerry Diamond:
They are tremendous. I still don't think they've been fully recognized for what they did.
Mariah Neston:
I mean, I did it during, we were still in COVID. I baked pies out of my own oven. I mean it was amazing to be able to gather people in a way.
Kerry Diamond:
I think the fact that they gave so many of us a sense of community and purpose at a time when, I don't know, I'll speak for myself. So many of us were just floundering and not knowing what tomorrow was going to bring, and the whole industry was just sort of turned upside down. Yeah, it's amazing. Did you two also do the Planned Parenthood bake sale this summer that Natasha Pickowicz organized?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, we've done it a couple of times. We've done it, well I guess once.
Kerry Diamond:
Pre-pandemic?
Michelle Palazzo:
Pre-pandemic, we did the one and that was super fun. It was a lot of work, but it was such a cool experience and I really commend any person that is willing to put in that type of work. Because even just with social media and all that, I just don't have that in me sometimes. And I don't even know how people do it. It's amazing.
Kerry Diamond:
And you all show up with the most beautiful baked goods at these things. It's not like when you grow up and you have a bake sale at school and your mom runs and buys a box of Entenmann's donuts and you can just throw them out on a plate. No, you all show up like it's the pastry Olympics.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's like we don't interact with each other much. So when you finally see what's up, you're like, "Oh, this is what you're doing. This is awesome."
Kerry Diamond:
A little competitive but friendly competition.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, in a good way. It's good.
Kerry Diamond:
Who do you admire?
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean, I love Anne-Sophie Pic. I mean just her style, what she brings to the table. I mean, as a chef, it's just hard to not just admire somebody who just puts out that type of food that she does. And it's just so beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
I've never been to one of her restaurants.
Michelle Palazzo:
I'm trying to go in October.
Kerry Diamond:
In Paris?
Michelle Palazzo:
Yes. It's my first Parisian trip as an adult. So I'm really looking forward to all of the pastry.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, my god, I don't think there's enough stomach space or…
Michelle Palazzo:
No, not at all.
Kerry Diamond:
...time for you to try all the things you need to try.
Michelle Palazzo:
No, but I'm really looking forward to it.
Kerry Diamond:
You're going to have to be really organized. I see spreadsheets. I see lots of things in your future.
Michelle Palazzo:
I just feel like a croissant every two hours. It's just...
Kerry Diamond:
Off duty, do you prefer sweet or savory foods, Michelle?
Michelle Palazzo:
Savory.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah?
Mariah Neston:
Savory.
Kerry Diamond:
Savory. Why is that? Because it's just so much sugar at work?
Michelle Palazzo:
Oh, yeah. All I crave now is just like, I just want salt. I just want potato chips. And I mean we have it at Le Rock, which is becoming a major issue, is we're up... Because at Frenchette, you're downstairs in a basement, so you're not involved with the food as much. But the kitchen for plating up there, you're just constantly being bombarded by the French fries.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, no.
Michelle Palazzo:
And it's like you have one, you're like, oh god.
Mariah Neston:
French fries and mayonnaise.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my god, that's my favorite combination.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, it's dangerous. And then somebody puts au poivre sauce on at the end of the night, you're like, "Okay, great, this is what I'm eating."
Kerry Diamond:
I am always the one when I order French fries, I ask for mayo on the side, the best. What's an ingredient a serious pastry chef always has at home?
Michelle Palazzo:
I think vanilla is the forefront of flavoring in a lot of ways in a lot of pastry. I mean it's like the garlic to dessert, to savory. I mean I always have one sad vanilla bean that I have never used. But I do have always like a good quality vanilla when I do cook.
Kerry Diamond:
For those out there who aspire to pastry greatness, what's a vanilla you like?
Michelle Palazzo:
Right now, that Norohy vanilla that Valrhona introduced recently is delicious. It has such a particular flavor to it that's just really a nice quality.
Kerry Diamond:
Interesting. I don't know about that. Mariah, how about you? What's an ingredient a serious pastry chef always has at home?
Mariah Neston:
Butter.
Kerry Diamond:
I can never have enough butter. Michelle, what's a tool a serious pastry chef always has at home?
Michelle Palazzo:
If you have room, I would say a KitchenAid. A KitchenAid with the attachments, I mean you can do so much with one of those. And they last forever.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Good answer. Mariah?
Mariah Neston:
A scale.
Michelle Palazzo:
Oh, yeah, that's a good one.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your birthday cake of choice?
Michelle Palazzo:
A watermelon log from Carvel.
Kerry Diamond:
A watermelon log from Carvel. How do I not know what that is?
Michelle Palazzo:
It's pretty much a watermelon flavor like sorbet that's shaped like a watermelon. It's the best.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Sounds good. Mariah?
Mariah Neston:
I'm going to say not a cake and a bowl of pasta with a candle in it will just make my entire year.
Kerry Diamond:
Good to know. Okay. Cheap candy thrill.
Michelle Palazzo:
Oh, do we talk about our candy?
Mariah Neston:
We certainly do.
Michelle Palazzo:
I mean I think it started at Frenchette, but our chef Riad Nasr always has a bucket of Kit Kats. Canadian Kit Kat, you could talk about the break because it's a particular point in service.
Mariah Neston:
He starts almost twitching or it's like a blinking motion, and then we need to announce the kitchen, "Are you ready for a break?" It's a very fun tradition, but we take a hot knife of a blow torch and we perfectly cut the Kit Kat on our service board and we all take a break and we cheers with our Kit Kat.
Michelle Palazzo:
It's every night. And it's different type of Kit Kats too.
Kerry Diamond:
They have blueberry pie Kit Kats in Maine. And I meant to buy a bunch of them and bring them back. Okay, we need to find the blueberry ones. So they're always different ones. So you always have different flavors.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, we have a full-blown tasting.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you have a fave?
Mariah Neston:
I think the classic one is my favorite. The recent white chocolate, that caramelized chocolate one, was good but it was like a good one-biter. I don't know if you could douse a whole bar, bring down the whole bar. But the classic one, I mean the milk chocolatey one is delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
The matcha Kit Kats are great.
Mariah Neston:
I don't think I've had the matcha ones yet.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. I'm going to buy them and bring them to you all because I think those are great.
Michelle Palazzo:
That would be a good end, right? Look at those Kit Kats.
Kerry Diamond:
Now, you know everybody who needs to get a table at Le Rock or Frenchette, now you know how to get a table.
Mariah Neston:
Canadian Kit Kats.
Kerry Diamond:
That was my follow-up question. How are they different from American?
Mariah Neston:
The quality of chocolate.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that for real? Come on, it's the same thing, no?
Mariah Neston:
We have one every day. We know.
Michelle Palazzo:
The American chocolate has like... You know when you have a Hershey's bar? Time and place, Hershey's is delicious. But it has a little bit of a throw-upy vibe sometimes, the flavor.
Mariah Neston:
I was going to say waxy.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, there's just like a flavor... It's like a thing.
Kerry Diamond:
Never has that crossed my mind, but I see the waxy. I know what you mean with the waxy thing, Mariah. That's pretty funny. All right, the Kit Kat ritual. Who knew? Would love to know, a serious question. Would love to know how you are taking care of yourself mentally and physically. And I know that's not easy because if I had to ask myself the question, it's like very inconsistently would be my answer. But we've started asking everybody this question just because in light of the past few years, it's obvious how important it is. Michelle?
Michelle Palazzo:
I'm a big advocate for taking the time when you can and also being around loved ones and people that you care about, and making that a priority the same way that you make work a priority. At this point, working quite a lot, it just kind of comes with the territory of opening up a restaurant, being involved with openings. But taking the time to relax and be with family and friends is how I try to mentally help myself.
And then physically, I just try to walk as much as I can. I want to tell myself I'm going to go to the gym and all that. And when you're working crazy hours, it's the idea of waking up an extra hour is just not in the book.
Kerry Diamond:
And your job already is so physical.
Michelle Palazzo:
Yeah, you're like standing for hours. I guess, taking the time and enjoying the beach while you can. And that's what we're doing.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah, how about you? I know you've been trying to get some beach time in.
Mariah Neston:
I would say mentally it's been planning my weekend or my day off early in the week. Then I'm working towards something and keeping a positive attitude as well as keeping, like Michelle was saying, my family and friends really close because I mean my family and some of my friends, who I've known since elementary school, have known that this is my dream. And sometimes, I just need to be reminded of why I'm in the position I am and to remember that I've been working really hard to get to a point I'm at. And physically...
Michelle Palazzo:
That one spin class we did.
Kerry Diamond:
When was that?
Michelle Palazzo:
Well, I said I would come to, but Mariah did like a couple of days. This was like, "Oh, couple days of spin class. Look at us, we're really doing it."
Mariah Neston:
I mean exercise is very important, but with the amount of hours I'm working at the moment that maybe take it a little easy. But drinking water, sleeping, the basic human needs for me.
Michelle Palazzo:
For a long time and even now, we try to both support each other. If I have something going on, Mariah will fully step in and be like, "I got you," and then vice versa. If she needs anything, it's like all hands on deck.
Mariah Neston:
And I would go on to say that. I guess on the mental level, Michelle has been the biggest support because I'm pretty sleep deprived. And sometimes emotions can be high, but she's always been there to have a side one-on-one conversation just to keep it going.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm happy to hear that. Last question, even though I could talk to you two forever. What is your advice for aspiring pastry chefs?
Michelle Palazzo:
My advice would be probably find a mentor. Find somebody that you can grow and develop with. Find a healthy environment. Make sure that other people in that environment are happy, because it's so hard. It's not an easy life whatsoever. The hours are really tough. I think just finding a healthy environment that you can adapt and you can grow creatively is just super, super important.
Kerry Diamond:
Mariah?
Mariah Neston:
I would say to be patient, there's no rush to get to a certain position. But also to, I say it all the time to write everything down. There are recipes that I'm looking for, just one component of one dessert that I would like to maybe change a little bit that I no longer have because I lost a notebook somewhere along the way. And then to also, you journal your emotions. You should journal your ideas. It's my advice to young chefs.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a beautiful idea. I love that. All right, you two. How do you feel? You survived your first podcast experience.
Michelle Palazzo:
Good.
Mariah Neston:
Yeah, good.
Michelle Palazzo:
You're going to think about it tonight. We're like...
Mariah Neston:
"Why did I say that?"
Michelle Palazzo:
Like why?
Kerry Diamond:
Well, I think you two did great and I hope this is just the first of many interviews that we get to do. I love talking to you both.
Michelle Palazzo:
Thank you for having us.
Mariah Neston:
Yeah, so fun.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Thank you so much to Michelle Palazzo and Mariah Neston for joining me, and congrats on successfully acing your first ever podcast. If you'd like to keep up with all things Michelle and Mariah, follow them on Instagram. Their names are their handles. And if you're in the New York City area, don't forget to check out Le Rock right here at Rock Center and Frenchette Bakery. Have one of those canelés for me.
Thank you to Whole Foods Market for supporting today's show. If you enjoyed today's pod, check out past episodes with other great pastry chefs, including Natasha Pickowicz, Claudia Fleming, and Caroline Schiff. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios at Rockefeller Center. And thank you to our assistant producer, Jenna Sadhu. And thanks to you for listening. You are the Bombe.