Nadine Ghantous Transcript
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Hi, everyone. You're listening to The Future Of Food Is You, a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Abena Anim-Somuah, and each week I talk to emerging talents in the food world and they share what they're up to as well as their dreams and predictions for what's ahead. I love this new generation of chefs, bakers, and creatives making their way in the world of food, drink, media, and tech.
Today's guest is Nadine Ghantous. Nadine is the sous chef at Rolo's, a popular neighborhood restaurant in Ridgewood, Queens. Nadine and I chat about the Lebanese dishes and CSA farm trips that shaped her childhood, the urban food escapes that inspired her move to New York City, and her move from front of house to back of house. Stay tuned for our chat.
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Now, let's check in with today's guest. Nadine, thank you so much for joining us on The Future Of Food Is You.
Nadine Ghantous:
Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Can you tell us where you grew up? And how did food show up in your life?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, so I grew up in Huntingdon Valley, PA, a suburb in Northeast Philly. I'm a little bit outside of Center City. And I think food showed up in my life, I guess in the most memorable way, just at the dinner table. We were a household of five. I have two siblings. It was imperative to my mom that no matter who had sports practice at what time or how late my dad was working or what was going on, that we were going to sit down as a family and share a meal at the end of the day.
She was at that time working part-time as a nurse, and that allowed her to look at the way that we ate as children in such a rounded, holistic way. We belonged to a CSA growing up, which was so cool.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, fun.
Nadine Ghantous:
I feel so privileged in that sense that we had...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very granola.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, very much so. She would take us to the farm. We would have volunteering days, where we would just pick weeds and like. And at the end of the day, the treat was to go pick flowers in the garden space, which is just, it sounds so picturesque now. But yeah, she really thought I think about the plate in such a holistic way and was really intentional about home cooked meals. So, we went out to eat every once in a while, but it was really like we are going to share a pot of stew or whatever it was that she was making that night. So...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And so, you said your dad's from Lebanon. Were there Lebanese issues that also made it to the table at the most part? Or what was that?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How did food show up from a Lebanese perspective?
Nadine Ghantous:
In a very big way. I think that when my parents first started dating and we're getting more serious... There's a funny story that she tells my sister and I that one of the first cookbooks, Lebanese cookbooks that she came across was from one of the doctors that they were working with. They met at the same hospital in New Haven, Connecticut.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Cute.
Nadine Ghantous:
And this doctor basically was like, "Hey, if you're going to date a Lebanese man, you have to learn how to cook Lebanese food," which sounds very old school, but I think she was well intended. And she gave her this cookbook that was as homey as it gets. It was basically this church in Beirut that came together and all of these women just put a bunch of their like...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Like a community cookbook.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, community cookbook like traditional recipes together.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, that's adorable.
Nadine Ghantous:
And she was like, "I would like you to have this cookbook and I think you'll really enjoy it." And my mom was like, "Are you sure that you want to give like, this seems like such a big thing?" And she's like, "No, no, take it. I don't use it." And then, two years later, my mom's one of those people too, when she's going through a cookbook, she writes in it, she tags the pages, it becomes a journal almost.
So, two years later, the doctor came back and she was like, "I need that book back. I'm so sorry. Can I please have it?" And my mom was like, "Are you? Yes, no problem." She was like, "No problem. I just have to warn you that I've kind of scuffed it up." She's like, "It doesn't matter. Can I just please have it back?" So, my mom was like, "No problem. Can you give me a week?" And she was like, "Sure, whatever." My mom photocopied the whole thing and bound it herself and made her own copy.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Nadine Ghantous:
So, one of our Christmas gifts, I think a year or two ago was my sister and I received our own photocopied version of her photocopied.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
So, I think I took from that a lot of recipes. And my grandmother would come over from Lebanon after they were married, and she'd spend the summers with us and teach my mom to cook. And she never learned English. She was very adamant about never learning English. So, yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
She spoke Arabic for the most part?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, exclusively.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Were there two or three dishes that made it to the table?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah. So, Warak Enab, which is basically just grape leaves. The way that we do it is like a half beef, half lamb kind of filling with rice and spices, hummus, of course, and tabboule. And we had this one dish called Mujadara, which is basically just caramelized onions and stewed lentils, which is just, it's so homey. But those are the big ones that I remember always hitting the table.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And so, it sounds like food and medicine seemed to play a pretty big role in your family and it ended up being a big part of college. So, you come to New York, just get your master's in nutrition science after being at Syracuse for pre-Med, was there a specific area of nutrition science that you wanted to focus on?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think that I finished my bachelor's degree and I felt really lost. I'm a very stubborn person in some ways, especially with myself and my ideology, I guess. And I thought that medicine was the only path that I could follow just because of the influence my parents had on my life, I guess. So, I got to the end of bachelor's and I was like, "Oh, God, I don't want to work in medicine, but I don't know where else to go." And I had really wanted to move to New York because all my friends were moving here.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Naturally.
Nadine Ghantous:
That's what you want to do when you're young. And I had a minor in nutrition science at Syracuse, and I took a couple classes that just it clicked. I was like, "This is really cool. Food's really fun." But what was more interesting was like, "Okay, if I want to move to New York, what does an urban food space look like? And how does living in one of the biggest, most densely populated cities in the world, how does that affect the way that people eat?"
And I was kind of fixated on this idea of combining food, science and public health and started getting into, just as I went through my master's. This idea that nutrition education is not accessible and it makes me so angry still to this day that food is life. People need proper nutrition to thrive and survive. And the fact that that is not a part of the way that we interact with our day-to-day from a young age, I think, in learning how to eat correctly. It's crazy.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Were there any restaurants or coffee shops or cafes that you really start to fall in love with when you first came to the city?
Nadine Ghantous:
Oh, my God, absolutely. There was a wellness market that I felt really comfortable in, having this background in nutrition and growing up in a food space where fresh produce was at the very center that I would go and I'd go to their hot bar and get whatever like be in salad. They were always doing very interesting vegan and vegetarian dishes. Not that I was a vegan or vegetarian, but to make that food taste good, I think is hard, and they did it well.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And so, you got your start working in restaurants in New York. What were some of the first places that you worked at? And what were some of the experiences that you took from there?
Nadine Ghantous:
One of my first restaurant jobs in the city was at Maya Congee Cafe in Bed-Stuy, and it was in the middle of the pandemic, so I was the only person working the counter just because that was the most safe thing to do. We had a grocery part, and we did food prep and sandwiches and congee. And so, I basically did it all. I was restocking and organizing the market, and I was making coffee at the same time. And then, I was doing food prep for the next day, but also making congee bowls and just getting to know the regulars that would come in every day, which was very fun.
And that's where I kind of got my, I guess, dipped my toe into food prep. And it was such a fun space to work in. Layla, who's the owner, is one of the most kind and wonderful people that I've ever worked for. And I feel like, she creates such a space that's very familial. So, we'd finish the day and close up the shop and sit with her daughter, whose name is Maya, and we'd just talk and have dinner and it was a very, very sweet experience. I think about that time very fondly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And so, you then continued to work in restaurants, much more full scale. You end up at Lilia, which is a gorgeous Italian restaurant in Williamsburg, and you started working as a host for four months. What was it like getting the job then? What was it like becoming a hostess at such a popular restaurant in the city?
Nadine Ghantous:
It was crazy. Truthfully, when I moved here, I had no idea what the food scene in New York was, and how big it was, and how influential it was. I had read Kitchen Confidential. I'd done the things that you do when you want to learn about New York dining. But I didn't really understand the influence that I think both Chef Missy and Lilia as an establishment had on the dining scene.
And Michaela and I were living together at that time, and we were living in Williamsburg. We walked by Lilia. And she's like, "Oh, you need a job. You should try to work there. It's one of the best restaurants in the city." I was like, "All right. Italian food, sure. I don't know. I'll be a host. I've worked as a host my whole life. So, sure." I get this job. And the people that I worked with were just the coolest people I'd ever met in my life.
And it was so funny coming from small restaurants in the suburbs of Pennsylvania to going to one of the most popular casual, fine dining places. All of a sudden, I'm learning how to move through a dining room elegantly and that you're supposed to walk on one side of the dining room to create a flow of traffic with other people that are working in the restaurant, and how it's this big dance every night, both front of house and back of house. And it has to work totally harmoniously every night for the dining experience to be what we wanted to be, which was so cool. And I was hooked. I was so obsessed. I loved, loved working as a host. It was so fun.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Obviously, no day is the same, but what was an average shift for you as a hostess? You get to the stand. You're obviously looking at that towel with all the little tabs and numbers and things, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah, they puzzle. Yeah, so you get in a little bit earlier and you sit down, it's like, okay, got to go through the book, which is what we call it, whether a restaurant uses Resy, OpenTable, whatever platform. For us, it was Resy. So, we'd...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Or a giant book.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, or a giant book. Some people still do it like pen and paper.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
So, yeah, you'd sit down and you'd go through the book and you'd move reservations around on tables in order to create more time for the guest as well as the servers and the kitchen. It's basically a big puzzle of figuring out how to make things flow very efficiently and effectively, so that no one notices. It's a subtle art.
You want the dining experience to never feel rushed. You don't want it to feel too slow. It's all a big game. And I think that as a host, the part that you play is making sure that both the dining experience that the guest is having and the service that the kitchen is having matches up.
So, yeah, you can sit down, look at the book, go through the guest list, any notes on people that have maybe come in a bunch of times that are regulars that we want to make sure feel extra special or any friends of the house that we want to show a good time and just what the night's going to look like. Prepare the kitchen, "Hey, we're going to have 30 people sit down at 5:00. It's going to be a pretty big first push. Then, we're going to have another big push at 8:00, just so they can mentally prepare for, all right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. We we're in this for the long haul. We're all just trying to get to the end of the day. That's the goal. So, just facilitating that communication.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, that's awesome. And so, in this time, you are sneaking in the back of the kitchen, you're getting more eager. What was the push to then start wanting to move back to the back of house and start working in the kitchen? Was there a particular moment or experience you had in being a host and having to communicate that way?
Nadine Ghantous:
So, Lilia has an open kitchen, which I think is so cool. And I would come in every day, and they'd be there in their whites and everyone looked like a giant. Everyone looked like they were 6 foot 5, and they stood so picturesque and they moved so gracefully, and they made it look so easy. And every night I would just, at one point you're standing at the host stand, things are slowing down for you and you look over and it's like, the spotlight is on them and they're glowing, they're glistening. It's not like they're sweating, they're glistening.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow. You definitely have a very rose-colored perspective.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I was like, "I want to be able to do that." I don't know, if I can, but what would it look like? And I think, I had gotten a little bit of experience with food prep and I'd seen a little bit of what it was like to figure out how to make food taste good in a way that people don't do at home, that I was like, "I want to learn the secrets. I want to be a part of that." It looks like a really cool team.
And the cooks that... We're working at Lilia at that time were so sweet, and they were so cool and they were so nice. And I don't know, you hear all these stories about cooks and chefs being so removed from what you're doing as a front of house worker, and it was not like that. I think the open kitchen really brought everyone together.
And I remember having a conversation with one of the sous-chefs at Missy at the time and basically being like, "Yeah, thinking about going to culinary school," because I had the thought one night, "Why not? What would it look like?" And she was like, "Forget that." She's like, "No, you're going to come work for us. We will teach you. No problem. I'm going to talk to chef. You're going to email her. You're going to sit down and talk." And that's exactly what happened. And everyone was like, "Oh, you want to do this? Let's do it."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's really impressive.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, what did the first couple of shifts look like for you then? I guess, were you staging at that point? Or were you coming in as a prep cook? What was the technicality of that?
Nadine Ghantous:
It was an interesting way of moving parts of leaving the host team because we wanted to make sure that that area of the restaurant was covered. So, when I made the transition, I went right into... And also, I had a conversation with chef where she was like, "Okay, do you have any experience?" I was like, "Basically, not." I was like, "I will do whatever though. I have no problem going wherever you most need me." And she's like, "All right. Let's start with pastry." I was like, "Okay, I've never baked in my life."
And so, the first couple of shifts were like 5:00 AM shifts, 12-hour days. All right, you're doing it. You want to learn how to make focaccia and donuts and cookies and whatever. We got to get the cafe set up. We need to get dinner service set up. And I was really lucky that the person who was training me had worked in that role for five years. So, she had that down pat. She was like...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Like a trinity in food.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, and she was so kind and so patient because it was a mess. I was like, "Oh, how do I button this coat? Or what do I do with my hair?" I was so out of my depth, but I just kept showing up and she also kept being like, "Okay, we got to keep moving. Oh, you don't feel comfortable with that? Well, let's do this." Just every day kind of honing in and continuing to practice and practice and practice.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, it sounds like you got your start in pastry and really got to understand the flow of the kitchen, how things worked, the different stations. And then, from that, you ended up moving to the hotline at Lilia. So, the hotline, obviously, it's got tons of different stations and things happening. What were some of the lessons you took from your time as a pastry cook into the hotline? And then, how did that help you adjust the pressures of the kitchen?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think something that you learned very quickly when working in a kitchen in any capacity is that multitasking is your best friend, but to do it is incredibly hard and to do it in the right way, again, it's a puzzle. You have to figure it out every day by messing it up every day, and trying something new the next.
So, I think that really helped me put things in perspective of how to organize a prep list and how to organize the order of operations that were going to set me up for success and service. Yeah, I was really lucky to also just have amazing people that were like, "Let me sit you down and we're going to write minute by minute what my day looks like..."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
... "And then, you can try it this way. And then, if you don't like that, you can adjust."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
I do, and you do type thing.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, exactly.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, exactly.
Nadine Ghantous:
And I think, again, they were just very patient with me. So, I think influential in who I am now and how I feel like I interact with other people in a kitchen space because they really took the time to be like, "This is going to be overwhelming. You need to keep moving, but you're good. Just keep going, keep pushing. We're going to figure this out together. But also, at one point, you got to fly. You got to just do it yourself."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
And again, I mess up time and time again, and come back in and do it another way, do it a better way until finally like, "Look, you're doing it yourself."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. The Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference is taking place Saturday, April 20th in New York City. It's the largest gathering of women in and around the food, drink and hospitality space, and an amazing day of conversation and connection. Meet great people, discover the folks behind your favorite brands and gain wisdom from Jubilee speakers. Tickets are on sale now at cherrybombe.com. If you're an official Cherry Bombe member, be sure to check out the special pricing for members, albeit this year's Jubilee, and I would love to see you there.
So, it sounds like you want to grow out of Lilia. It got too small for you, pun intended, as intimate as that kitchen is, and you wanted to spend more time understanding other parts of the food world, especially with wood fire cooking. So, you move over to Rolo's where you are now, and which is one of the most popular restaurants in town. I feel like if you are in food, if you know food, you've been to Rolo's and had an incredible experience. What inspired that specific decision to move into that direction of cooking or in restaurants?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think I was at a point where I had been at Lilia as a whole for almost two, about two years, and I was like, "Okay, well I'm doing it. I'm showing up and I'm working as a cook every day."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Got your whites on.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I was like, "I know..."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Got your knives bag, yup, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
I got to sharpen my knife.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
There you go.
Nadine Ghantous:
I know how to wear the hat. I was like, "Okay, could I do it at another restaurant? What does it look like to work in another kitchen? Is it the same? Is it different? And should I challenge myself to do it again?" I was still finishing up school and I was still deciding of which path to take. Am I going to be a dietician? Am I going to be a cook? And moving to Rolo's was like, I think a formative step in being like, "This is what I want to do."
This is the job that makes me feel the most comfortable. This is what I feel like I'm good at. This is the space that I have been searching for that makes me feel the most me. And Lilia also has a woodfire grill, and I was like, "Okay, this is so cool and so scary and so intimidating, but who else is doing it and in what way?" And Rolo's was just, it was a newer restaurant at that time.
I went there to solo dine, to have the burger. I saw the burger on an eater list. I was like, "Wow, that looks good." I went in and got a little salad, a little glass of wine, burger, and there was something about being in that dining room that I was like, "This place, there's something there."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
It's very comforting.
Nadine Ghantous:
It's very comforting.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
The staff is just so warm and friendly. I just remember leaving and being like, "I have to work there. I have to work there." And I had friends who had moved from Lilia to Rolo's, who were working front of house. And I had a couple of other people in the industry that their siblings worked there in some capacity and they connected me to Howard, who is the chef and co-owner.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Very cool.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, and the rest is history.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, for our listeners who haven't had a chance to make the tread to Ridgewood and go to Rolo's, can you tell us a little bit about the restaurant and what the menu is?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's a fun menu. What I've learned most about cooking there and the food that we make is that we really think about the dining experience and the guest experience as a whole, in such a way that the attention to detail is so finite that I don't think that diners understand how much thought goes into the plates that are sitting in front of them because they're so simple. Our beet salad right now is beets, cheese, and that's it. But the process of getting to that point is so labor-intensive.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Specific beets, the specific cheese, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yes, the way we cook the beets and peel them and marinate them, and that whole process and figuring out what kind of cheese and do we want it box grated? Do we want it shaved? How does that feel in your mouth? I think it's a perfect example of just simple food is really hard, but it is very delicious when it's done right.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, what cuisines inspire the menu? Because it seems like you've got different things on that. You've got a little bit of New American, Mediterranean, what are the pillars or principles that make up a menu? Because your menu also rotates quite frequently as well.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yes, every season, which is really, I feel very fortunate to work at a restaurant that is always testing and developing and continuously questioning like, "What could be good? And what could be better? So, there's a lot of, I mean, we have pastas, so there's a lot of Italian influence. I would say that French cuisine is very big as well, traditional French cooking and techniques and methodologies.
Rafiq, who is the executive chef and owner is Dutch and Yemen. So, I think that he brings a lot of those techniques as well. And just from both him and Howard's culinary backgrounds, whether that's at Gramercy Tavern, which is also New American kind of like, I feel like New American is so funny because it's like, just cook what you want, just cook what's good.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
So, yeah, that's basically just like what are we feeling?
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, can you tell us about your first experiences with wood fire and how much they helped you grow as a chef?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah. So, I initially started working the sauté station at Rolo's, which was pastas, a station that I was very comfortable with coming from Lilia.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. So, you just put the pasta into some sauce? Or what does sauté station mean?
Nadine Ghantous:
So, basically, what's very cool about, we have an open kitchen as well at Rolo's, and the only gas that is on our line is from the fryer. Everything else is wood fryer or we have two inductions, which is our Sauté Station.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow, okay.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, sauté is basically just cooking the two, three pastas that we're running on the menus at that time. We have a big pot that we set up as our pasta tank, build the sauces, pastas in, adjust, adjust, season plate, and then, go.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, nice. And it's fresh pasta.
Nadine Ghantous:
Fresh pasta.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Okay. So, it's a quick boil.
Nadine Ghantous:
Quick pickup, yeah, for sure.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Nice.
Nadine Ghantous:
Everything, everything's got to be quick.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Quick but good.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yes, exactly. So, I moved from the sauté station to oven, which the way that the line is set up there. Oven station works the wood fire oven and half of the grill. You're responsible for the fire management within the wood fire oven, and you have to work with the grill station to help maintain as well as share space on the grill. It's a small grill. For the covers that we do, its space gets tight sometimes.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, yeah, I know, yeah. When you've been there, it seems like you've got one person in the wood fire, and then there's six people hovered. But everything managed to get set really quickly, someone at the pass or expo.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yes, yes, yes. It's all about spatial awareness. And I feel like working the oven station, you learn how to move in a way that is elegant and very nuanced and there's no wasted movements. That's how to work the station efficiently. Yeah, because you're standing in the middle of two fires that are both 800 degrees. It's so incredibly hot. Your whole body composition changes in the first two weeks that you're working with wildfire, I swear.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow. Yeah, it's like body by wood fire.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah. No, for real. I don't work out anymore. There's no need.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Maybe that's the move, just got to draw it real quick.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What are some of the techniques that when you first learned were really intimidating? But then, with time it started to get pick up and get really comfortable with?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah. So, there is such a thing as something being too hot. That's where you learn very quickly. You're feeding the fire all night, so you're throwing logs basically into the opening. The cool thing about working in a woodfire oven is that it retains heat scarily well, so you are riding this line of the size of the log that you're throwing in as the night goes on does matter because you have such a coal bed and such built up in a way that the oven circulates the heat.
There's a domed ceiling to it. And if you're doing it correctly, you won't have to feed it with as many or as big of logs as the night goes on because that heat is circulating in a way which is doing it very evenly. And you can get an even cook off of what you're putting in there without having to manipulate the coal bed or the logs a lot, which is really cool. It's very hard.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, it's like a science and an art, right?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Because if you put a big log in there, I guess what service is what, six, seven hours? Something like that.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, if you're putting a giant log in there, you're expecting it to be there for an hour or two, or...
Nadine Ghantous:
They break down faster than you think that they would.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Wow. Really?
Nadine Ghantous:
So, you can overheat the oven and you can figure out a way to work things out that within 20 minutes or so it's broken down. Yeah, there are different ways. I mean, the oven can be too cold sometimes, and you can use the paddles in a way to move air under the coals and stoke the coals. We talk a lot about where you build up your coal bed.
So, if you're staring into the back of the dome shape of it, I have found that the most efficient way to build a coal bed is putting your logs from 12 to two because it circulates the air in such a way that just, it's such even cooking. It's crazy. And we've all tried, put it here, put it there. No, 12 and two, perfect.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, that's nice because I feel like cooking is so much of an art, obviously. Do you want your oven or whatever heat method to be as streamlined as possible? But it sounds like even with this, it's like an art too. I am sure at cooler times of the year, warmer times of the year, there's also stuff that impacts it in, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
So different, yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
What are some of the dishes that you're making in the ovens, for the most part?
Nadine Ghantous:
We make our wood fire lasagna, which is showstopper in the oven as well as our polenta breads. So, those are really the only two dishes that are going in there. But they're ordered so frequently and so often that again, space gets tight. You can also use the heat from the oven in a really interesting way to warm a plate or cook up a steak, if it's a little bit under. And you don't want to hit it on the grill again. And yeah, there's a lot of different ways to use that oven particularly. And during service, it's lasagnas and polenta all day. It's just like one after the other, after the other.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Love that. Is there a particular dish that if you and the other CDCs or executive chefs we're thinking about would make sense to go in the oven?
Nadine Ghantous:
We talk about it a lot. We actually cook our burger onions in the woodfire oven.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
No way.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, which is very cool because we can do that very passively during their prep time.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And they still got a good caramelization on them too.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's slow. It's slow and slow, and you still build up that really smoky caramelized flavor. So, we use it a lot during prep. Just start the fire early, build up a cold bed, and you can put anything in there and it's creating such a nice char, such a nice smoky flavor. It's very cool.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, tell us about what recipe development and money development looks like at Rolo.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's very fun. So, as a management team, we come together and we have something called a vision quest. It's basically where no technique, no ingredient, no process is off the table. Come with your ideas, let's talk about them as ridiculous, as labor-intensive, as complicated as they are. All of the ideas that one person has can spark something else in someone like someone else's mind.
All six of us sit down, we just talk. And it spirals in such a crazy way. It's like, "Okay, Terrene, what is a Terrene?" Okay, how can we do it in a sweet way, in a savory way? Chicken, liver, mousse. Do people want to eat chicken, liver, mousse?" It's this very, very fun and no pressure conversation. I think it's funny
because some ingredients, I think when you've worked in the industry for so long, you really don't enjoy using.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Like what?
Nadine Ghantous:
So, I've had to discover fennel is one that I've brought to the table a couple of times where it's an expensive ingredient and...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
It's very bold.
Nadine Ghantous:
It's bold for sure, but you learn all these stories about the chefs that I'm working with and working for like, what does fennel mean to them? And what ways have they cooked it? Why don't they want to work with it again? Or why do they always turn towards duck or Bottarga, random ingredients? Why is that a go-to? And a lot of times, it's very simple things like lemon, salt, pepper like that is...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, you can get a ton of that.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And that flavor profile can also be comfortable when it happens too, yeah...
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, but it's like vision quest goes so big. It's like, let's start up here, way up here in the clouds. And then, refine and refine and refine and refine and refine, and test and test and test, and mess it up and mess it up. And, oh, this didn't work. Oh, this did, but this isn't right. This sauce is too thin, too thick. How can we tweak this in a way? Do we want to put it on the grill? Does it need the smokiness? And then, we end up with that final product.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
So, it sounds like you've really grown up in restaurants. And now, you are a sous-chef at Rolo, which is exciting. What are the responsibilities of a sous-chef? And how do you think about your role in the kitchen specifically with where you've come from and where you hope to go?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think, I mean, being a sous-chef, it's so crazy to me because I never anticipated on, I don't know, doing this fully in full force. And I feel like I really made the decision in the last two years to go for it. But I think, being a sous-chef, if I could describe it in one word, is like a liaison. You are the connector between the executive chef, the CDC, and what our goals are, overhead goals, very big goals, and finding a way to streamline that information for the cooks, for front of house, front of house management, front of house staff, for the prep team, for the porters.
It's really about being, I think, a beacon for people to come to and ask questions all the time. I don't always have the answers, but I think what's really cool about working at Rolo's is that, it's so team oriented that it's okay if I don't because someone will. And we've created an environment where you can ask those questions and be like, "Hey, I'm not really sure, but why don't we go find out together? And then, we'll both know." There's no judgment, there's no whatever. It's just like, we're all trying to be successful and get to where we want to be. And so, I think it's just being a team player.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And how have you found support, not just from the staff in your kitchen or at front of house, but also staff in the restaurant community? Because I feel like chefs in New York, it's like a fun little group where it's like everyone knows everyone. Everyone's going to each other's restaurants, everyone's hanging out, that sort of thing.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's like real recognize real. It's so cool. But I feel very fortunate that Taylor, who is our CDC, is I think one of just the most incredible mentors and has opened up so many conversations with so many people in the industry that he knows and been like, "Hey, you should go meet this person, or you should go check in with them and see how their meal's going. I know that they'd love to talk to you," because I get really shy very quickly, especially up at the past. I would rather just put my head down and focus on expediting service. But I think he pushes me in a way to open up and look around and be like, "Hey, this is the rollover, be a part of it, have those conversations."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
The rollovers, I love that.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, so all the chefs in New York are part of the rollover or just Rolo people alone?
Nadine Ghantous:
I think Rolo's people like coming to Rolo's. But also, we're a very industry focused restaurant, which I love. Sunday, Monday there's always someone from some restaurant sitting at the bar and it sparks an idea of like, "Oh, I got to go visit that restaurant. It sounds so good, whatever." There's always, I don't know. I think about these two people that come in from, I believe they work at Marlow & Sons.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, cute.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's also in Williamsburg, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah. And I love the Marlow group. I go so crazy for Romans and Achilles heel. They're like my favorite places to go on my days off, honestly, because they create such an environment of, I don't know, just a sense of community of you can be here and it doesn't need to be a big flashy thing, and just come and chill and listen to good music and eat good food and just relax, have a nice time, which I feel like for someone who works in restaurants every day can be hard going into other restaurant spaces and feeling comfortable doing that.
I think that they do that very well, and I love that they love coming to Rolo's. I've cooked them a lot of steaks. They come in every week, same time, sit down at the bar. I'll always see their ticket come in. I'm like, "That's so cool. I love that they're regulars here, and I love that they love coming here."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
How have you found the state of New York City's restaurant culture in terms of supporting chefs? And also, just how consumers are reacting to demand and things like that? Because I feel like Rolo's is also such a popular restaurant, their nights where is really tricky to get into, and that's another conversation about the restaurants at large right now in New York.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, totally. I feel like we're in a very interesting time where we're actively fighting this idea of exclusivity. Rolo's is a neighborhood restaurant. That's what we want to be through and through, and we always want to make sure that we have a seat for everyone. And unfortunately, some nights like that can't be the case. It's a big city. Big city, and everyone's got to eat.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
But I think, being so young in this industry and still so new at it, I find myself some days fighting this self-consciousness that I have where I'm like, I don't know a lot. I don't have a lot of years of experience underneath my belt. Who am I to be standing up at the past telling someone what to do? But at the same time, again, I have these people in my corner, the other sous-chefs at the restaurant, Taylor, Rafiq, Howard, who have just created such a safe space for me to say, "I don't know."
And so, I feel like it's my responsibility to also allow the cooks to say, "I don't know," as long as, again, we're figuring it out together. And I feel very comfortable being like, "I'm going to mess this up."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you learned that from your earlier days at Lilia, just failure as a teacher, if anything.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
And it seems like you guys have a good feedback culture, a feedback loop where it's like you learn from that. As long as you're learning from the failure, then it's okay to fail.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, it's like okay, when it's like crunch time, come on, we got to do this. But I think as long as you come at things with a humility and an openness, that is what I feel like I'm learning and being taught the most.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Obviously, it sounds like you're in the thick of the New York City restaurant culture. I'm curious, when you think about the current state, what are some things that you wish would change? And what are some things that you're hopeful for, for the future when it comes to the restaurant culture for chefs? And obviously, as a customer too?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think that idea of exclusivity is one that we need to move away from. And I don't know if there's an answer to how to do that at this point, but TikTok lists of most hard reservations to get in New York. It's so redundant, and truthfully, I think so boring and not what food is about at all. And I don't think what a lot of people are working so hard in this industry to achieve, we're all just trying to cook good food and trying to hold space for people to be able to enjoy that. And I think that restaurants are trying to move in that direction where that is the focal point, not how many covers can we do, and how long is the wait list and who's going to sit at the... Whatever. It's not about that. It's just about the food.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, that's really powerful. And then, is there something that you hope will stay?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that I find in my day-to-day that I'm like, "This is so cool." And people have been doing this for so long. But I think, respect for tradition in the sense of the very, very... The foundational techniques with which we cook that are based on. I think that you're seeing an interesting way of dining out now because we're moving further away from the fine dining experience. That is not an experience that a lot of people are seeking out, at least my generation, I think.
And I think that it's cool that food and restaurants are moving in the direction where those techniques that are used in very, very fine dining establishments are still a part of more casual experiences. I think that is so cool because it's like, again, these things that you wouldn't think about picking an herb, you're picking it into an ice-cold salad spinner, it's a chocolate like...
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, even the pleasers, as much people make fun of them.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, they're useful.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, definitely.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
When you think about the future of restaurants and the culinary community at large, I mean, especially as a woman, it sounds like you've had an overall positive experience. How do you hope that restaurants in the culinary community at large are spaces that are more comfortable for women and particularly women of color?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, we've come a long way, but there's still so much work to do to make a kitchen a very inclusive space. I think that although we're moving in the right direction, I think that it needs to happen at a faster rate where women feel like they can walk into a kitchen and are not looked at because they are other, in any sense of that word. I think it's just like, "Hey, we're here to do a job." That is the way that I think about it.
I don't show up to work every day and think about my womanhood or I don't know, my femininity. I'm like, "This is that... I'm clocking in. I need to butcher fish. I need to do order. I need to do X, Y, Z." I think that there are ways in which we can make that across the board just more of a realistic or reality, I guess. I don't know.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, for sure.
Nadine Ghantous:
I think that there are so many good people in this industry, and so many people that want other people to win. And so, many conversations that are being had about people that don't hold space for everyone. And I think continuing to have those conversations and being very vocal about it all the time is what is going to get us there the fastest. And maybe, not the easiest, but the most efficiently.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, most definitely. And obviously, it sounds like restaurants are being much more supportive of people who aren't coming in with a traditional culinary background or going to culinary school or again, working in fine dining restaurants. Do you have any advice for anyone who is in that position, has loved food for so long, but wants that connection to restaurants and wants to take that leap?
Nadine Ghantous:
For sure. I mean, just say yes. Just ask questions, just keep showing up. I think that it only took one person being excited about the fact that I wanted to work in a kitchen as opposed to being like, "Oh, you could never," which... There is people that do feel that way.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
They're just not your people.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, just not my people. It's like, "Come on, man, we're all trying to do something that makes us feel good." So, I think that you don't need to go to culinary school. Just go and start working in a restaurant, be a prep cook, be a porter, be a front of house server, be a host. Just become a part of a community that is aiming to do something that you're interested in.
Put out food that you like and just say, yes. Whatever questions you have, ask them, whatever task is being requested to do, just do it and learn from it. Ask for more. Oh, you need help folding rags? Great. What else can we do after that? Build time to explore, I think that's the biggest thing that I learned while working at Lilia and working at Rolo's. It's like, I want to do my job well, but I also want to do it good enough that I can start looking around and asking questions.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, because as small as a kitchen is, there's still so many different pockets and things that you can explore parts.
Nadine Ghantous:
So many different parts, yeah, it's cool.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Where do you hope to see yourself in the next five years? How do you hope to influence food as we see it right now?
Nadine Ghantous:
The future? I feel like I think about it so vaguely, which is like, I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
No, you're just got through the day-to-day, yeah. I respect that. I respect that opinion.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I'm just, again, trying to say yes to all the things that come my way. And so far, my gut's been right about what feels right and what doesn't. But I think in the future and in five years, I would really love to be continuing to be a mentor, maybe a little bit more comfortable in that ideology.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
With the word?
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, because right now it does not feel like mentoring. I think still being a liaison in whatever form that takes between the people who choose to work in this industry day in and day out, and advocating for them and trying to create a more balanced space. Because restaurants, they're tough. It's long days and late nights, and I think I've always said, people ask me all the time, "Oh, do you want to open a restaurant? Is that what your goal is?" And like, it's not necessarily my goal.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
But you wouldn't say, no, if the option is struck.
Nadine Ghantous:
I wouldn't say no, but I also think that more of what I want to do is, I want to open someone else's restaurant. I want to work with someone that inspires me so much that when they are like, "Hey, I think I want to do this." I'm like, "Let's do it. Let's go, whatever you need. However, you need me to show up in whatever capacity, I want to help you bring that goal and that dream to fruition."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Is there a guest or someone that you'd love to try your food at some point? If they walked into rows, you'd be like, "Oh, my gosh, it finally happened. That day has come."
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, I don't know. I think there's so many people. What's funny is the first person that comes to mind is not like a chef necessarily, but that's okay. I think about Questlove a lot, and how cool he is and how he has a million different jobs. He does them all well. He loves food. He loves dining out. He loves entertaining people. And I think that he has his ear to the ground on some really dope stuff all the time.
And I think listening to him talk with people in the industry or just people who enjoy food and eating, he creates such a dialogue with them that is, it's so just familiar and conversational, very comfortable. And I think, if he came in and sat at Rolo's, I'd be like, "Oh, my God." Just kind of lost with a polenta bread. I come in peace, "Please, please, please enjoy this."
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah. Oh, he definitely will. And yeah, I feel like you're so right. He's done some much work with... I know the Food and Finance High School. He has a lot of initiatives getting younger people into the industry as well. So, yeah.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, yeah, very much so. He's really a part of, I think, a very important conversation that's going on.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Yeah, not a chef, but an important food person.
Nadine Ghantous:
Yeah, definitely.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Nadine, thank you so much for joining us on the show. If we want to support you, we're the best places to find you?
Nadine Ghantous:
Come to Rolo's. Come say, hi, if you see me on the pass or wherever. I'm trying to open up the lens more. Yeah, I'm on Instagram. My handle is Nadine Ghant. It's G-H-A-N-T. My DMs are open. I have an email, a professional one, which is crazy. I've never had that before, but it's nadineg@rolosnyc.com. I'm trying to be open. I'm trying to continue the conversation and see where other people are at, so hit me up. I'm around.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Oh, exciting. Yeah, definitely.
Nadine Ghantous:
Thank you so much.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
Thank you. Before we go, our guest is going to leave a voicemail just talking to themselves 10 years from now. You have reached The Future Of Food Is You mailbox. Please leave your message after the beep.
Nadine Ghantous:
Hey, Nadine. Ten years, huh? Have we learned how to slow down? Have we finally let ourselves enjoy success? Are you being kind to yourself? Finally, drinking enough water? Please tell me we finally invested in some insoles for your shoes. I can't imagine we'd be anywhere but New York, but I hope you're listening to this and allowing yourself to feel proud of how far we've come.
Whether or not we've opened the restaurant, I know the path with which we've chosen is a good one. I hope our community looks the same but different, bigger and more full of people who love taking care of other people, and want to see each other win. I hope you'll listen to this and laugh at how young you sound, how we had no idea what was coming our way, but also how we know in this moment, both versions of ourselves are ready for what comes next. Always learning and always growing.
Abena Anim-Somuah:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. Thank you to Kerrygold for supporting our show. The Future Of Food Is You as a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thanks to the team at CityVox Studios, executive producers Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, associate producer Jenna Sadhu, and editorial assistant Londyn Crenshaw. Catch you on the future flip.