Ashley and Gautier Coiffard (L’Appartement 4F) Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Rockefeller Center in the heart of New York City. I'm the founder and editor of Cherry Bombe Magazine, and each week I talk to the most interesting culinary folks around. Joining me in the studio today are Ashley and Gautier Coiffard, the duo behind the Brooklyn baked good sensation, L'Appartement 4F.
Gautier is an engineer and self-taught baker from France, and Ashley, a school nurse from Southampton. They never expected their lives would revolve around croissants, pain au chocolat, and chocolate chip cookies. They started L'Appartement 4F in the summer of 2020 as a micro-bakery on Instagram and quickly gained a devoted following. Last year, they opened a bakery in Brooklyn Heights with lines down the block. Ashley and Gautier join me in just a minute to talk about their business, their relationship, and those fantastic croissants. Stay tuned.
The Cherry Bombe Jubilee conference is taking place Saturday, April 15th at Center415 in Manhattan. Jubilee is the largest gathering of women in and around the world of food and drink. Jubilee day is filled with great talks, networking, beautiful things to eat and drink, and lots of opportunities for connection, conversation, and community. So many of your favorite chefs, bakers, and authors will be there, including lots of folks you've heard from here on Radio Cherry Bombe. Jubilee tickets are on sale now, so visit Cherrybombe.com for more, or click on the link in our show notes. We'd love to see you there. Also, thank you to everyone who joined us for our Graduate Hotels events in Chapel Hill, Tucson, and Palo Alto. They were so much fun, we met so many awesome people, and we ate a lot of great food in each of those cities. Thank you to the Graduate Hotels team for their hospitality, and we hope to be back very soon.
We'll be back in California this week, because Cherry Bombe has a special event taking place in Sacramento this Wednesday, March 8th on International Women's Day with our friends at California Grown. I'll be moderating a panel of local farmers and makers, and we'll also hear from California Department of Food and Agriculture Secretary, Karen Ross. The event will take place 10:00 to 11:30 a.m. at the California Department of Food and Agriculture Auditorium, at 1220 North Street. Tickets are $25 and include the latest copy of Cherry Bombe Magazine. Come meet other members of the Bombesquad, learn about California agriculture, and celebrate the state's food ways. Check the show notes, or visit Cherrybombe.com to snag your ticket.
Now, let's check in with today's guests. Ashley and Gautier, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Gautier Coiffard:
Hello.
Ashley Coiffard:
Hi. Thank you for having us.
Kerry Diamond:
Is this really your first podcast?
Ashley Coiffard:
Very first.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm super excited to talk to you two.
Ashley Coiffard:
Us too.
Kerry Diamond:
You two are the toast of the town.
Ashley Coiffard:
It seems that way.
Kerry Diamond:
We're going to tell everyone the whole story, because it's such a wonderful story, and you back it up with incredible baked goods. I've been fortunate to try them. I feel very blessed, because I know how long the lines are at your shop. So we're going to jump right in. I would love to know how you two met.
Ashley Coiffard:
So we met in the Upper East Side at a bar. I like to say it's the old-fashioned way. I was with my friend, and he was with his friend, and Gautier and I just started talking, and we've been together ever since.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, why did you start talking to Ashley?
Gautier Coiffard:
I think we were trying to make fun of someone else in the bar.
Ashley Coiffard:
Gautier.
Gautier Coiffard:
Right? Something like that.
Ashley Coiffard:
Well, to be fair, he wasn't tipping the bartender. And the bartender was yelling at him for being cheap. So there was a little bit of a commotion, and that was me and Gautier's in to start looking at each other.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's so funny. Okay, so it all started there on the Upper East Side. Ashley, where did you grow up?
Ashley Coiffard:
I grew up in Southampton on Long Island.
Kerry Diamond:
And Gautier, how about you?
Gautier Coiffard:
I grew up in Grenoble in The Alps in France.
Kerry Diamond:
Ashley, did you bake at all when you were younger?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, never.
Kerry Diamond:
Never? Not even Toll House chocolate chip cookies?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, not really. If an Easy Bake Oven counts, then yes. But no, not real baking.
Kerry Diamond:
Did anyone bake or cook in your family?
Ashley Coiffard:
Not big bakers, no. My mom came from Iran, so she would cook for us, and when my grandparents came to visit, they would cook for us as well, but not a lot of baking.
Kerry Diamond:
Were they good cooks?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, my grandmother is the best.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, wow. Is she still in Iran?
Ashley Coiffard:
She's in Iran, but she comes back and forth.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. How is she doing with everything going on over there?
Ashley Coiffard:
She's okay. She's a trooper. She always looks at everything very positively.
Kerry Diamond:
And how about your dad's side of the family?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, not cooking or baking.
Kerry Diamond:
Neither?
Ashley Coiffard:
Nothing like that.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Gautier, how about you?
Gautier Coiffard:
Oh, I loved baking when I was a kid.
Kerry Diamond:
You did?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, with my mom and my grandmother.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you bake?
Gautier Coiffard:
I think the one I really remember was a clafoutis. We had a cherry tree in the backyard, so we'd pick out cherries, and it's kind of like a flan with cherries in it. I don't know how to describe it.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that dessert so much. You don't see it a lot in America.
Gautier Coiffard:
No. It might come back in our menu, maybe someday.
Kerry Diamond:
Ooh. What else were you baking?
Gautier Coiffard:
I remember liking, too, some challenges, like a St. Honoré, and I tried croissant when I was very young. Didn't do much with it, didn't really work, but my first attempt. I was 10 I think.
Kerry Diamond:
A croissant is challenging for the home baker, definitely.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us what a St. Honoré is. I should know that.
Gautier Coiffard:
St. Honoré, it's with pâte à choux. I don't know pâte à choux in English.
Kerry Diamond:
Choux pastry.
Gautier Coiffard:
Choux pastry, yeah. And then there is a lot of pastry cream in it. It was my dad's favorite, so I wanted to try to impress him.
Kerry Diamond:
Aww.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
This is a good opportunity to plug our other podcast, She's My Cherry Pie, because we did a whole episode on choux pastry with Dorie Greenspan. Have you two met her yet?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, I don't think so.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh, she would love you two. And she speaks French, and she lives in Paris half the time.
Ashley Coiffard:
Oh, so cool.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, you're baking when you're young, but you have a very analytical mind. You gravitate toward engineering.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes. I was good in math. In France, really, if you're good in math, the path is to do engineering school. So this is what I did, took me five years of math and very boring classes, and I became an engineer. I got a job here in New York, so my first job was here as an engineer in 2012.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you want to come to the United States? Or was your company like, "We're just sending you there.”
Gautier Coiffard:
No, no. I wanted to come to New York, so I found a job here.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you want to come to the U.S.?
Gautier Coiffard:
I always liked the U.S., and I came here to visit New York City, and I really liked it. So I said, "I'm going to try to come back."
Kerry Diamond:
At any point on this journey, were you thinking to yourself, "I would love to be a baker in New York City one day"?
Gautier Coiffard:
No, never.
Kerry Diamond:
Never?
Gautier Coiffard:
No.
Ashley Coiffard:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
So Ashley, what were your career aspirations when you were growing up?
Ashley Coiffard:
I've been all over the place. I loved fashion, I loved medicine. So, originally I wanted to be a psychologist. I went to school, and then I accidentally stumbled upon a finance job, so then I worked in finance, but I really did not like that atmosphere. So I said, "What's the opposite of finance?" And I thought, "Well, nursing. You can help people." So I went back to school for nursing, and eventually became a nurse at a children's school.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, did you continue to bake this whole time? Or was that just something you did when you were little?
Gautier Coiffard:
When I was little, and then as I became an adult, I liked cooking and baking for myself, but very little. Like once every two weeks.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you think of New York baked goods?
Gautier Coiffard:
I really liked it actually. I really liked the scene in here. I think the first big place I went to was Levain Bakery. At that time, it was really popular. It still is. So yeah, that was my first impression of the food scene in New York.
Kerry Diamond:
And Ashley, you are not baking?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, never.
Kerry Diamond:
So you two are dating, you eventually move in together, you move into the famous apartment 4F.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
When did you start baking pre-pandemic? I'm just trying to get all the timing in my head.
Gautier Coiffard:
So, I starting doing my starter in November 2019.
Kerry Diamond:
So you started the starter way before everyone else?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, before it was cool.
Kerry Diamond:
And Ashley, did you understand what he was doing?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, not at all.
Gautier Coiffard:
She hated it.
Ashley Coiffard:
I learned that he had a starter when we were visiting my family on Long Island. And I guess you have to bring the starter everywhere with you, to feed it and keep it alive.
Gautier Coiffard:
When it's the early stage. The early stage, you have to. It's a baby.
Ashley Coiffard:
So we're in the car, and I see this mason jar full of goo coming out all over the car. Gautier is not the cleanest, so I was like, "What on Earth is that?" And he's like, "It's my starter." And I'm like, "Okay."
Gautier Coiffard:
I think you said, "You're weird."
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, I did. I said, "This is very strange."
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, did you name your starter?
Gautier Coiffard:
No, I'm against that.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you are against that?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. So even when the pandemic started and people were naming their starter after Beyoncé and things like that, you did not partake?
Gautier Coiffard:
I was just silently judging.
Kerry Diamond:
You've got your starter, the pandemic, March 2020 happens. Did you keep your jobs? Were you laid off? What happened?
Ashley Coiffard:
No, we both were able and very lucky to keep working full time. I actually think both of our jobs picked up during the pandemic. Because I was in finance, a lot of people were refinancing their homes. So I was really busy working from home. And his job, I think he worked even more during the pandemic.
Kerry Diamond:
So Gautier, you were in engineering. What does that mean, exactly?
Gautier Coiffard:
I was working for a French company, it's called MAM Software. So it's similar to the software over there, it's been used in TV stations. So before the pandemic, I would be traveling all the time, which was the fun part of the job. I was going all over the states. But then I became remote, and then it was just being in front of a computer and coding. So it was not as fun as before.
Kerry Diamond:
So you two were stuck in apartment 4F, you start baking more.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you do that?
Gautier Coiffard:
Much more time on my hands, and I wanted to practice the croissant, because I really wanted to get there finally.
Kerry Diamond:
Was it the engineer in you that was like, "I'm going to figure out how to do a croissant?"
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes, I did several Excel sheets, and tried to use some math to get to the perfect recipe.
Kerry Diamond:
You did Excel sheets to master the croissant?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Wow, that's very impressive. When did the Instagram account happen?
Ashley Coiffard:
So, basically that January, I had seen the fruits of his labor, and saw that people actually liked his bread and his croissants. Me too. So we were in France looking at wedding venues, and we were listening to a podcast, How I Built This, and we listened to Tate's. And Kathleen Tate is a living legend, especially in Southampton. It's where the bakery is, and if you grew up in Southampton, everyone has a story about her. And I was like, "Gautier, your baked goods are really good. I think it would be fun to start selling them to friends and family." And he was like, "I don't know about that." When we got back, I made an Instagram, and I think we had our first post in February, and then March, the pandemic happened. So really, for those first few months, it was just me documenting, not really selling. It wasn't until June where we put up a menu, and decided that this is going to be real business.
Kerry Diamond:
How did the name L'Appartement 4F come about?
Ashley Coiffard:
Gautier just decided.
Gautier Coiffard:
I said it to just be apartment 4F. And she said, “We should make it French, and add L'Appartement."
Kerry Diamond:
Cute. What's going on in your lives when you decide to really take this to the next level?
Ashley Coiffard:
So every day during the pandemic, Gautier was baking, we would eat a lot of bread, and then we would go on a walk. Our apartment was a few miles from Prospect Park, so we were walking to Prospect Park every single day. And there's a chef that we passed by his apartment, and he was selling meals. His name is Scott Kava. And we talked to him and we were like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Oh, I'm an out of work caterer, so now this is how I'm supporting my family." And Gautier and I were like, "Oh, that's so cool. We wanted to start something out of our apartment, maybe we should just do it." So on our walk home we said, "You know what? We're going to put up a menu tonight, and we're just going to do it." And after a glass of wine, we hit publish.
Kerry Diamond:
That's amazing. Gautier, what did you think at the time?
Gautier Coiffard:
I was excited. At that time, we were starting to reopen, going outside and meeting people, so it was exciting to do something new. I was excited. I thought I was going to do a few croissants here and there, so it's fun.
Kerry Diamond:
And Ashley, what was on that first menu?
Ashley Coiffard:
Very minimal. It was croissants, a pain au chocolats, I think we did an almond croissant, an almond chocolate, the tahini chocolate chip cookie, and Gautier was really into pies at that time, so we had an apple and a blueberry pie.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a nice lineup.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
And what happened?
Ashley Coiffard:
As soon as we put up a menu, I put it up on a Facebook group, and we started getting orders. And people would order, they would DM us, and then they would post and tag us. Honestly, ever since the first day, we've had business.
Kerry Diamond:
What did your neighbors think of the fact that you were now operating a micro-bakery in the apartment?
Ashley Coiffard:
Our neighbors never complained. They were very happy, and they started ordering from us, especially when they saw people picking up. And at the time, I would just put on a trench coat, and I'd walk out with a box of pies, and people were like, "What are you doing?" I told them, "We started this bakery in our apartment." A lot of our neighbors supported us. And it wasn't until the day we signed our lease did we get an email from the HOA [homeowners association] saying, "I've heard a rumor of a bakery in your apartment. Is this true?"
Kerry Diamond:
Ashley, at some point you become a school nurse.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Tell us about that.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, so when we put up a menu in June, we had luckily so much business that I actually quit my finance job a month later. So I was a processor at a mortgage company, which was not very fulfilling.
Kerry Diamond:
You weren't a high-flying hedgefund human?
Ashley Coiffard:
No. I was really small potatoes, bottom of the barrel. I knew it was just a job to get me through nursing school. So I graduated nursing school, Gautier and I were having so much fun baking that I said, "Hey, is it okay if I just bake with you, and I'll figure out how to get a nursing job in a little bit?" And he was like, "Yeah, it's totally fine." We just spent six months, he was still working, I was taking pictures, I was helping him bake, I was marketing, I was delivering, I was doing everything.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to talk about the nursing a little bit more, though, because that was a scary time to consider that as a profession.
Ashley Coiffard:
Definitely. Especially as a new nurse, yeah, I was terrified, because I graduated in May, during the pandemic. My classes had to go to remote, and we couldn't go and do clinicals anymore. We were just a big liability. I passed my boards in July but I was baking in the apartment. And then in December, somebody from my program heard about this opportunity to be a school nurse in the Upper East Side, and I took it, because at this point, I didn't think that the bakery was going to be a business. It was just for fun.
Kerry Diamond:
What is it about that side of you that nursing appealed to?
Ashley Coiffard:
Oh, I love helping people. I love connecting. I felt like that was the best way to go about it.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, did you know about this side of Ashley?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, it's something she always talked about, going back to school, when we first met, for nursing. And I was very proud when she actually did. She did it all in two years. It was pretty fast.
Kerry Diamond:
It takes a special kind of person to want to be a nurse.
Ashley Coiffard:
Thank you. Well, my mom is also a nurse, and my sister's a physician's assistant, and I'm Persian, so the medical field is almost a must.
Kerry Diamond:
All those plans were put to the side, because L'Appartement 4F continued to take off. Social media was a big part of the success of your business. Tell us a little bit about the role that social media played.
Ashley Coiffard:
I feel like it was the main reason that we were on the map. We didn't pay for any advertising, it was just our customers tagging us, and people finding out about us online, and we were getting orders all the way from Germany. It was during the pandemic when people were stuck in New York, and nobody could visit each other, and weddings were getting canceled, and so people were using us as a way to give gifts, because it's hard to DM a bakery. But people knew about us, so they would DM us and say, "Hey, my best friend's wedding is canceled. Can you bring them some fresh bread?" Or, "Hey, my daughter is stuck. I'd love to give her some croissants." Just through word of mouth, it just really grew and built something.
Kerry Diamond:
And what platforms were you on?
Ashley Coiffard:
Only Instagram. I would share to Facebook automatically, but-
Kerry Diamond:
No TikTok at the time?
Ashley Coiffard:
No TikTok at the time.
Kerry Diamond:
You're on TikTok now, though?
Ashley Coiffard:
Now we are, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. And were either of you particularly good at social media at the time?
Gautier Coiffard:
Well, not me for sure.
Ashley Coiffard:
Not personally. My personal Instagram is just pictures of me and Gautier. It's not very exciting or interesting.
Kerry Diamond:
You weren't the social media savant?
Ashley Coiffard:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. But you did come up with a very lovely aesthetic to go along with L'Appartement 4F. Can you tell us a little bit about how that aesthetic evolved? I'll describe it for the listeners who haven't looked at your Instagram or your website, but I feel like it's very romantic, very minimalist, and French, all at once.
Ashley Coiffard:
I honestly was inspired by whenever we went to visit Gautier's family in France, and they would have a spread and there would be no logos. His uncle makes jams, so all the jams would just be in clear jars. Their jams, their breads, their butters, everything was just very minimal. It almost looked like they made it themselves. And so I always loved that look. So I knew that when we opened our bakery, we wouldn't really go heavy on the branding or the logo. I just wanted to keep it simple. It happened very organically, not really thought out.
Kerry Diamond:
It worked.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Were you involved at all in figuring out the aesthetic of the brand?
Gautier Coiffard:
Not really. I was just baking, and she would use it. She asked me to take a few pictures, but they never made the cut. I can't do it.
Kerry Diamond:
And you two are not shy about putting yourself out there. Sometimes you'll go on a baker or a restaurant's website and you cannot, for the life of you, find out who's behind it, who are these people, but you two are very cheerfully front and center.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, I think it also happens a little organically, because when people were DMing us, they would say, "Hey Ashley, can I order?" Or, "Hey, Gautier, do you have a recommendation for this?" So I think because of how we started, and we were direct messaging with our consumers, we really got to know them. I think it just happened very naturally where sometimes we would share. I think the first picture we posted of us was when we got married in Southampton at our civil ceremony, and it was like our most liked picture at the time, and people were DMing me saying they saw me in Southampton. They got to know us, so we just went with it.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you think that's a big part of the success of L'Appartement? Obviously you have to have the good baked goods to back it up, but just the fact that folks really got to know you at a vulnerable time?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, I think the baked goods maybe 40%, but really the story is what makes it interesting, and people want to be part of it and come.
Ashley Coiffard:
It's funny, because our employees will say they hear people bringing their friends to the bakery upstairs, and they'll give a version of the story that they heard. They talk about the actual bakery. They're like, "This was the apartment. They turned this place into an apartment. And it's a French woman." So you hear all these different versions of the story, but it's really sweet that people are just so excited, and they want to share it.
Kerry Diamond:
That's very funny. You two are not afraid of a public display of affection either.
Ashley Coiffard:
Never.
Kerry Diamond:
That's a very charming part about the two of you.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah. Actually, it's more Gautier.
Gautier Coiffard:
Just a hug here and there.
Kerry Diamond:
It's very sweet. And then you have your dog. You also clearly love the dog from all the pictures. The dog's name is Chip, right?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, tell us about Chip.
Gautier Coiffard:
Ashley has been wanting a dog for a while. We got it at the same time we opened the bakery, I think. At first, I was a bit against it, but it's fine. We are buddies.
Ashley Coiffard:
Chip definitely prefers his mom, so Gautier gets a little jealous, I think.
Kerry Diamond:
Is Chip a doodle?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, he's a mini goldendoodle.
Kerry Diamond:
Chip's a doodle. There's so many doodles in Brooklyn.
Ashley Coiffard:
There are so many doodles, I know.
Kerry Diamond:
He's in good company. All this is happening, you've got this thing happening on social media, you're baking so much that your apartment can't even handle everything that you are baking. When do you decide you're going to open a physical space?
Ashley Coiffard:
Things in our apartment were actually breaking from overuse. Our oven exploded, we had a freezer in our bedroom, we took a look around, and we said, "Okay, either we make this a full-time, out of our apartment job, or we have to stop." And both of us, it was a no-brainer, we wanted to move forward.
Kerry Diamond:
It was a no-brainer?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Even though Gautier, this meant you leaving behind your engineering career?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, which I was really fine with. I kept my job for a very long time just to pay the bills, but I was very happy when I finally quit.
Kerry Diamond:
And Ashley, for you, you had wanted to be a nurse for so long.
Ashley Coiffard:
I know. For me, quitting was much harder than Gautier. So I started in December 2020, and then I didn't quit until November of this past year. And it was really hard for me. I should have maybe quit a little bit sooner to focus on the bakery, but especially working with young kids, it was very emotional. I gave eight weeks notice and I still didn't want to leave.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so hard when you have more than one passion.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, it definitely is.
Kerry Diamond:
Why did you two choose Brooklyn Heights for your space?
Gautier Coiffard:
Brooklyn Height chose us.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Gautier Coiffard:
When we decided we were going to move to a brick and mortar, we received a call from Cindy [McLaughlin] from the BHA, the Brooklyn Height Association, and they said, "Douglass Street really needs a bakery. We heard about you guys. Are you interested in coming? Check it out."
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's fascinating.
Ashley Coiffard:
And it almost felt like kismet, because a week before, we looked at our finances, and we said, "Okay, maybe we should start looking at retail spaces." And then a week later, the BHA calls us, "Are you guys looking into retail spaces? We would love to show you around."
Kerry Diamond:
Because Brooklyn Heights is not known as a food destination. You two have single-handedly changed that, and it's so exciting to see Montague perking up a little bit. You've now got Books Are Magic over there. Have you met Emma Straub yet? Who owns Books Are Magic?
Ashley Coiffard:
We definitely have talked through social media. I haven't met her face to face.
Kerry Diamond:
She's fantastic. You two would love her.
Ashley Coiffard:
She's incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
And her husband Michael. I'm a big fan of them both. Okay, so Brooklyn Heights chooses you, you go to Montague, and do you start looking at different spaces?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, we went through the whole street, there were so many vacant spaces, especially after COVID, and really just one, we really liked one of them. It used to be an Emack & Bolio's, an ice cream shop. But they told us, "Oh, I think someone's trying to get it in." So after that, I think a realtor that we were talking to before said, "Oh, I heard about a space on Montague that's vacant now. That would be a perfect fit for you." And it happened to be this exact same place we liked.
Kerry Diamond:
It's such a pretty storefront.
Ashley Coiffard:
It's beautiful.
Kerry Diamond:
Want to describe it, Ashley?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah. It's just full of windows. There are nine windows, and then on the side, there's a small arch window. And it has beautiful, natural light, it's just really special inside.
Kerry Diamond:
Now you two had to squeeze a bakery into it, though.
Ashley Coiffard:
It's a learning lesson for sure. It was about 11 months of construction, and Gautier just Googling everything.
Kerry Diamond:
I guess it's a good thing you're an engineer.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah. It definitely helped me in some aspects.
Kerry Diamond:
11 months is a long time. Was that a frustrating 11 months?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
What would you do differently next time, Gautier?
Gautier Coiffard:
I don't know if I would do differently, but I learned a lot, so a few things I know not to do. And also, not always take the first opinion, because people tell you one thing, but then another expert tells you another thing. So it's been learning not to trust everybody, just take it in and then make your decision.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you two get money together to open your bakery?
Ashley Coiffard:
We did things a little interesting. We looked at the space, we really loved it, and the BHA said, "Sign the lease, we'll figure it out together."
Kerry Diamond:
That sounds like a New York City scam to me. I would run in the other direction.
Ashley Coiffard:
We were scared. We had a little bit of money saved up for our wedding, but that was it. We said, "Okay." So we basically used all of that money for the down payment.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, did you believe the people when they said, "Sign the lease and we'll figure it out"?
Ashley Coiffard:
We were so excited, it didn't even matter. We signed the lease, we gave basically all of our wedding funds over, and we were like, "Okay, now what?" We decided to do a Kickstarter. We set a goal of $50,000 because Kickstarter is all or nothing. So we were a little nervous about that. Then the BHA came to us and said, "We have a few community members who would like to hear your story, and possibly loan you some money. So create a pitch deck." And we're like, "Okay, sounds good." And then when they left, Gautier was Googling, "What is a pitch deck?" So we just made a short little presentation, and we had a couple of meetings, and the community members, some were very generous, and loaned us money. And then we used a lot of credit cards.
Kerry Diamond:
In 11 months, that's a long time to be putting everything on your credit cards.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You ultimately raised $62,000 for your Kickstarter, so congratulations.
Ashley Coiffard:
Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
Who were the people who donated to the Kickstarter?
Ashley Coiffard:
Everybody. A lot of people that we haven't heard from in a long time. It was nice to see some of the people that I worked at that mortgage company with, that I worked really hard under them, so they generously donated. And a lot of our customers and the BHA community, Brooklyn Heights.
Kerry Diamond:
It's really remarkable about the Brooklyn Heights community aspect. That brings a whole new level to what you did, because you're not just a business opening on a street, you're now part of a community.
Ashley Coiffard:
Oh, definitely. It's like a family. They came to us, they asked if we could be open on Mondays and Tuesdays, because a lot of places close. We changed our whole business model just to make sure that we were doing right by the community.
Kerry Diamond:
For folks who want to visit, what days are you open?
Ashley Coiffard:
Monday through Sunday.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you're open seven days a week?
Ashley Coiffard:
Seven days a week.
Kerry Diamond:
You two must be exhausted.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh my gosh. Did you have to hire a consultant? Or did you two figure out a lot on your own?
Gautier Coiffard:
We tried to, but it was too expensive. So we became consultants, and figured it out.
Kerry Diamond:
I am amazed.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah. Luckily, there's a lot of resources if you look for them, and Gautier is a sleuth online. He reached out to the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce and asked about resources, and he really did his homework and he took advantage of everything.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, there's a lot of resources available.
Kerry Diamond:
That's good to know for folks out there listening who want to open their own place one day. Gautier, what other advice could you give folks who just have no choice but to go it on their own?
Gautier Coiffard:
Know your limit, because I tried to do some dry walling. I almost lost a finger.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah.
Gautier Coiffard:
Still have the scar. Some things you can do, but some things just need to hire someone.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, I had to remind him that he is a baker. He's not a general contractor, he's not a lawyer, he's not HR. It's okay to hire people who are smarter than you in their field.
Kerry Diamond:
True. But sometimes you can't afford those people.
Ashley Coiffard:
Oh yes, exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. So many of us have been in that boat. Let's talk about some fun stuff. I want to know what baked goods are in the daily lineup at L'appartement.
Gautier Coiffard:
So, really the menu is very similar to when we first opened. So, there is still a croissant, cruller, croissant amandes, amandes chocolat, one of my favorites, we call it le framboise which means raspberry, and it's an almond croissant with raspberry chocolate in it. Then we have the baguette, the beurre cookie. Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Kerry Diamond:
Sounds so good. We're just going to make Gautier read the menu a few more times.
Ashley Coiffard:
You can listen to that all day.
Kerry Diamond:
For all the listeners out there, so know how to pronounce all those beautiful French words. The raspberry is probably my favorite.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, me too.
Kerry Diamond:
That is so good. Yours too?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, it's my favorite.
Kerry Diamond:
You still love it?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah. Valrhona, the chocolate, they came to us, "Oh, you should try this chocolate." There was like a pink raspberry, I didn't really know what to do with it, but I wanted to try it. I really liked it.
Kerry Diamond:
So good. I know you're very picky about your ingredients, Gautier.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, I try. It really makes a difference when the butter is good. We try to use French butter. Sometimes they get delayed in the boat, so we have to look for other solutions. I think it's really important to get the right ingredients, especially for a croissant.
Kerry Diamond:
I saw the big sheets of butter. I didn't even know butter could come like that.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes. One kilo, two pounds, of butter. And we get through 20 sheets every day.
Ashley Coiffard:
I'm so happy they come like that, because when we were in the apartment, he was taking just cubes of butter, and banging it into a square. So all day you just hear wack, wack, wack, wack.
Kerry Diamond:
That's so funny. I know you also do seasonal things, though, because I do remember I stopped by one day, neither of you were there, and I think there was a pumpkin baked good on the menu.
Ashley Coiffard:
We were bullied by our staff. One of our pastry chefs, it was Jessica's creation, and she's really big into pumpkin, and so I said, "Okay, but it's not being called pumpkin spice. We're naming it something else, and we're having some integrity."
Kerry Diamond:
It's hard to avoid that PSL [pumpkin spiced latté] activity that time of year.
Gautier Coiffard:
So it was an almond croissant with a pumpkin paste in it, and we called it la citrouille, which means pumpkin in French.
Kerry Diamond:
Any other seasonal things that you add to the menu?
Gautier Coiffard:
So right now we are doing kouign-amann, which is a pastry from Britain with the croissant dough. In January, we did a kings cake, because it was the king's cake season, and we don't have anything planned for now, but...
Kerry Diamond:
You two do a lot of collabs, I have noticed. I don't know how you do as many as you do. Every weekend, I feel like there's another collab, Ashley. Tell us about a few of them.
Ashley Coiffard:
We've done different collaborations with big brands and small brands, and I just want to make sure that every brand aligns with our ethos. It stems back to when we were trading so often with these small micro businesses. Back in the day when we first started, we would barter and give bread for flowers and veal meatballs, just random things. Through that, I loved working with all these small businesses, so I said if we open a spot, I want to make sure that we uplift and put a spotlight on some businesses. A lot of small taste makers have reached out about doing collaborations, and I hired someone specifically for that. Her name is Noah, she's incredible. She takes the lead, and this way we have a vintage shop one weekend, and then we have Transcendence syrups another weekend. It's been a lot of fun.
Kerry Diamond:
It's been fun to follow them, absolutely. And you did a nice one for us a whole year ago. For Jubilee you had a special cherry croissant which we really appreciated. Why are collabs key to a brand like L'Appartement 4F?
Ashley Coiffard:
I think just basically being built around a community, it's important for us. So we've just been having fun. The community loves them. It gives them something fun to do while they're waiting online. And also just making sure that we highlight these small businesses. Sometimes they are bigger than us. We did a collaboration with Mate, which is an Australian sustainable clothing company, but I really like focusing on the smaller brands, and giving them an opportunity to see the community, because a lot of these brands are just online, so it's fun to give them an outlet.
Kerry Diamond:
I heard some exciting news that upstairs at L'Appartement 4F will very soon be a French bistro at nighttime. This is true?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes. So we finally got a liquor license. It took us a while. Again, the community said, "Please get liquor a license," from the get go. So we got a license, and now we are figuring it out. So that person that we met, the chef that was selling his food on the stoops, he is going to help us with the menu.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's such a wonderful story.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, it's a full circle moment.
Gautier Coiffard:
Chef Kava. And we hired a sommelier, so it's going to be fun.
Kerry Diamond:
I am so excited for you two.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, we're very excited.
Kerry Diamond:
What's the capacity of the space upstairs?
Ashley Coiffard:
I would say 25 seats, but we'll probably keep it to 20.
Kerry Diamond:
When do you expect to be open?
Ashley Coiffard:
We said mid-March, but that feels like it's coming up really quickly. So maybe the end of March.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, we can do it.
Kerry Diamond:
Can people make reservations? Will this be just show up and you'll save some seats for folks who are walk-ins?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, we've been talking to a few reservation apps. I think it'll probably be half reservation, and then leave a few for the walk-ins. It's funny, I've had a lot of people from Brooklyn Heights DM me and say, "Hey, can you make sure that the Brooklyn Heights community has first dibs?" So I definitely want to do something where if you're in Brooklyn Heights, that you get first priority.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, what will be on the menu?
Gautier Coiffard:
So there will be cheese, there will be a gourmet to go with the bread. We're still looking at the different options, but I think I want a croque monsieur, and we haven't decided yet, but French.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. I love a croque monsieur. Will you do brunch eventually?
Ashley Coiffard:
I didn't realize how busy it would be. We actually thought that it would be more sit down upstairs, and our customers kind of showed us what the business was going to be, so I don't know. We did a little pop-up up with ourselves with just croissant cereal, and it was mayhem. So I don't know if the space allows for that kind of...
Kerry Diamond:
We didn't even talk about the cereal. You're probably tired of talking about the cereal. Actual tiny croissant... Gautier is grimacing back there. You okay, Gautier?
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
A little cereal PTSD.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
The cereal's very expensive. Hopefully you're all sitting down, it's like $50 a box, but the amount of work that goes into the cereal, and you will not go through the cereal in one sitting. You will have the cereal around for a little while. I am not a cereal person. I did buy a box, because I love you two and wanted to support you two.
Gautier Coiffard:
Oh, thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
And also just see what the hype was all about, and it was so good. I could not believe it.
Gautier Coiffard:
Thank you.
Ashley Coiffard:
Luckily, people aren't disappointed when they buy the cereal, because when you price something so high, I feel like there's a lot of expectations to be met. But I think people have realized that it's a lot of work, and it's just a fun idea. And it's not to replace Cheerios, it's a special treat.
Kerry Diamond:
And divide it into serving sizes, and then do the math in your head and it'll work out a little bit better. I'm guessing there are more locations in the works?
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, we're building out a ghost kitchen right now to help, because we have been selling out every single day. And also, we've been talking about what other neighborhoods we might fit in. We're thinking West Village, to be determined.
Kerry Diamond:
You two have no poker face. As soon as I asked you the question, Gautier was grinning from ear to ear back there.
Ashley Coiffard:
We're so bad with any kind of secrets.
Kerry Diamond:
How would you do things differently? Would you go to investors? What do you think? Because I know you still own 100% of the company.
Gautier Coiffard:
We'd like to keep it that way. We're trying to reinvest profit from the current location to building that ghost kitchen right now, and then other locations, we don't know. We're still trying to figure out how to do it.
Kerry Diamond:
And how are you two taking care of yourselves and each other? You are in the middle of a real whirlwind.
Ashley Coiffard:
I'm very lucky we're opposites. I am a workaholic, I could wake up, work all day, and then go to sleep. And Gautier is quite the opposite. He really reminds me to take it slow, to enjoy every single step, to put my phone down, to not look at my emails at a certain point, he loves to celebrate and party. It's been really fun, honestly.
Gautier Coiffard:
It is important to celebrate and party. I think we have a good balance. Now that we have enough help in the store, we don't have to be there 24/7, so it's been good. The first few months were-
Ashley Coiffard:
Very hard.
Kerry Diamond:
You had to hire, you had to learn how to be managers...
Gautier Coiffard:
Teach the recipes...
Kerry Diamond:
Sounds like you have some good people.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, we do. So when we first started we were like, "Oh, we started this as home bakers, so let's hire a lot of home bakers." That was both good and bad. So now we have a really healthy mix of really professional, classically trained bakers, and then a lot of home bakers that were just excited to learn. It's interesting, because the home bakers bring this new and exciting take onto things, and then the professional bakers really keep us in check and say, "No, this is actually how you scale, and that won't work." And "Oh, that's a good way to do things." It's a great team.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you two ever stop and pinch yourselves and just think how improbable the story is?
Ashley Coiffard:
Every minute, yes.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, really.
Ashley Coiffard:
Every time a customer comes in I'm like, "Gautier, Can you believe it?" And he's like, "Yeah, Ashley. I can."
Kerry Diamond:
It's incredible. So many things had to happen, good and bad, for this to have become what it is today.
Ashley Coiffard:
Definitely.
Kerry Diamond:
I would love to know some of your favorite places to eat and drink in New York City, even though you probably don't have that much time to do that these days. What's on your radar right now?
Gautier Coiffard:
I actually really like Bar Bête's, where we found the sommelier. There is this place, Persian place, we went with Ashley and my mom and her mom recently, which is called Sofreh in Prospect Heights.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, I love that place.
Gautier Coiffard:
It's really good.
Kerry Diamond:
Sofreh is fantastic.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah, the gourmet sabzi is incredible there.
Kerry Diamond:
Gautier, you brought up your mom. How's your mom doing?
Gautier Coiffard:
She's doing better. She was very scared at first when I told her I was going to not be an engineer anymore and be a baker. It took her a while for her to come around, but I think now she's in a better place. She came to the bakery because she's a watercolor teacher in France, so she came to do some classes here, and she actually saw what was going on. So I think it's good now.
Kerry Diamond:
How about your family, Ashley?
Ashley Coiffard:
They were very excited from the beginning. They were some of our biggest supporters.
Kerry Diamond:
Good. So we usually do a speed round. I'm going to cut the speed round, because it's tough when there are two people, but the final question we always ask for the speed round, I'm going to have you two answer for each other, and see if you get it right. Ashley, we'll start with you. If you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why? Who do you think Gautier would pick?
Ashley Coiffard:
Who do I think Gautier would pick? A food celebrity, I would pick Cédric Grolet.
Kerry Diamond:
Why Cédric?
Ashley Coiffard:
Because he's always looking at his work, and we passed by one of his bakeries in Paris, and Gautier was interested, peeking through the glass, I follow him on TikTok as well, and I'm always showing Gautier, and he's like, "I know he's really cool."
Kerry Diamond:
So many of us are mesmerized by Cédric. Gautier, for folks who don't know who he is, tell us.
Gautier Coiffard:
He's a croissant expert and a pastry chef in Paris. He has a shop near Opéra, and each time you go there, there is hundreds of people with their smartphones trying to... Because you can see him baking from the outside. It's a really aesthetic and cool shop, and he always comes up with new recipes. So yeah, he's really fun.
Kerry Diamond:
The first time I learned about him, I think it was 2018 or 2019, and I was in Paris, and there was this long line, and the French don't really like to line up for things.
Gautier Coiffard:
No.
Kerry Diamond:
So I was like, "What is going on?" And I saw that it was Cédric, and I wanted to learn more about him. And he's now really famous for these fruits that he does. I don't even know if there's a name for what he does in French, but he turns these gorgeous fruits into desserts that look exactly like the fruit. And you slice into it, and it's a really complicated dessert.
Gautier Coiffard:
Yeah, I'd like to try one. I don't know if there is a name for it.
Kerry Diamond:
You'd like to try to make one? Or you'd like to try to eat one?
Gautier Coiffard:
Oh no, I don't think I could make one. I'd like to try one. And we never tried, because when we came a couple of months ago, it was a line, and we don't do lines.
Kerry Diamond:
And you're French. But fortunately, the folks who love L'Appartement 4F don't mind standing online as they do most days. Gautier, who do you think Ashley would want on the island with her?
Gautier Coiffard:
So actually we were listening to one of your podcasts, and we thought about the question. I think we said-
Ashley Coiffard:
It would be my answer. Athena Calderone.
Kerry Diamond:
Why Athena?
Ashley Coiffard:
First of all, we love her cookbook. Gautier makes a lot of recipes. And then I also really admire her as a tastemaker, and her eye for aesthetics. So I feel like if I was on a deserted island with her, she would make a beautiful meal, she would set the table...
Kerry Diamond:
You'd have a nice little house made of palm fronds or something.
Ashley Coiffard:
Exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
And she's the nicest person. She's like you.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yeah. I actually met her at one of your events.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, you did?
Ashley Coiffard:
She's so sweet, yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Good. You two are so sweet, and I'm so happy for all your success and thank you so much for coming on Radio Cherry Bombe.
Gautier Coiffard:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
I hope your first podcast experience wasn't too tough.
Ashley Coiffard:
Yes, it was gentle. Thank you so much.
Kerry Diamond:
Good. All right you two. You're the Bombe.
Ashley Coiffard:
Thank you.
Gautier Coiffard:
Thank you.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. Be sure to sign up for the Cherry Bombe newsletter over at cherrybombe.com so you can stay on top of all Cherry Bombe happenings and podcast episodes. Radio Cherry Bombe is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Thank you to Joseph Hazan, studio engineer for Newsstand Studios. Our producer is Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. And thanks to you for listening. You are the Bombe.