Betül Tunç Transcript Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes. I'm so excited to kick off 2025 with a brand-new season. Thanks to everyone who tuned in last year. We have a lot of talented guests and delicious baked goods to talk about, so get ready for a sweet year.
My guest today is Betül Tunç, the culinary superstar behind the widely popular social media accounts, Turkuaz Kitchen. Betül is a recipe developer and photographer and now a published author. She's from Turkey but lives in Virginia where she creates some of the most beautiful recipe videos around. And don't just take my word for it. She has over 10 million followers on Instagram and over 2 million on TikTok. Betül's debut cookbook, “Turkuaz Kitchen: Traditional and Modern Dough Recipes for Sweet and Savory Bakes,” was released last year and it’s her Instagram account come to life with gorgeous photography and delicious recipes. She joins me today to talk about her childhood in Turkey, the solace that baking brings, what it's like to be an exacting perfectionist, and her social media accounts and how they grew. Then we take a deep dive into her book and her recipe for Turkish Pistachio Baklava. I loved learning all about Betül and Baklava, so stay tuned for our chat.
Cherry Bombe's next issue is all about love and I think you're going to love the cover. It features Ilona, Olivia, and Adrianna Maher, the sister trio that has won everyone's hearts for their positive message of confidence and self-love. The issue is full of joyful stories and recipes. The issue will be out on February 13th, aka Galentine's Day, aka our favorite holiday. If you're a subscriber, you'll receive your issue first. If you're not a subscriber, sign up by Friday, February 7th, to get this issue and the following three issues of Cherry Bombe magazine. Subscribers always get free shipping, so head to cherrybombe.com to become a subscriber or pre-order the issue. We know the world needs a little more love right now, so we hope you'll pick up a copy.
Let's chat with today's guest. Betül, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk Pistachio Baklava with you and so much more.
Betül Tunç:
Thank you so much, Jessie. It is so nice to meet you and thank you so much for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you now live in Virginia. You're originally from Erzurum in northeastern Turkey. I love this description, a place of snowy frosty winters where you fell in love with baking and dough making when you were eight years old, maybe even younger, and making kete with your mom. So can you first of all describe kete for us?
Betül Tunç:
It is a Turkish version of croissant, I think. You’re rolling the dough a little like big and then you oil the dough and then you just roll it and then you make that kind of a kete shape. It is so flaky and so delicious. It is Turkish croissant and I started my journey with this pastry.
Jessie Sheehan:
Would you say that was your earliest baking memory when you were making kete with your mother? Because I also know that there's a memory perhaps of your mom giving you a little bit of dough to play with, almost like it was play dough, and maybe that was one of your earliest baking memories.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. I came from a huge foodie family and my mom and my older sister are really great cook and then their main focus always just to make delicious pastries and delicious food and then just spent my childhood to sit with them and then to learn all of the things from them, the basics from them. And then I was sitting with them and then I was watching, and then sometimes my mom used to give me just small piece of dough and then I was just spending time with them just to roll it and to roll it and shape it. So, yeah, my early memories coming from my three years old age and I think they're so early. So, yeah, it started very early.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I love that. And I also read that your dad gave you a rolling pin and maybe a little rolling table for your fourth birthday, is that right?
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. It was my first special toy. It was so lovely. He saw me just spending time with them and then I'm just struggling to find a place around them and then he gave me this beautiful custom size, a small child size of rolling pin and rolling table, and it was so lovely and my mom still keep it in the house and it's so lovely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. And so your dad, he knew to give you that gift because he saw how interested in your mother and your sister and the work they were doing with baking, that's part of the reason, but was it also your family was interested in food? I think you had maybe uncles who had restaurants, it was being attached to food and restaurants and cooking and baking was in your blood as it were.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. I totally agree. Yes, my uncles and my cousins are chef-owners. They have several restaurants in Turkey and they're so popular. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think baking and cooking in my blood and this is a family job. I find it in my life, too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I love that. I love that. And also your mother ... You said both your mother and your sister were these incredible cooks and baker, but your mom was your teacher, right? I mean, she taught you, she taught your older sister, and she sounds as if she is so expert at her bread baking and patisserie baking and dessert baking, et cetera.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. She's a master of my life, my personal cooking and baking journey. Also, yes, but also, I learn so many things from my older sister, too. They are so talented and then they just love cooking and baking as much as I do, especially I learn everything with my older sister and then we learn everything together. We watch all of the TV show. We tried all of the recipes together. Yes, my mom and my older sister are really great cook and then I learn everything from them.
Jessie Sheehan:
How much older is your sister than you? I know you ... You have three sisters or you're one of three?
Betül Tunç:
I'm a fourth one and I have three older sister and, yes, the youngest one, we learn everything together. She's six years older than me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is there another baked good besides kete or maybe your mom's favorite or your sister's favorite that you remember from childhood as well?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, we heard just so many like a traditional name. I don't want to just say them because they're a little different, even if they're Turkish. There was a fried dough recipe just where we were making with a basic pizza dough. My dad used to buy it from the bakery just around the corner and then he bring us a piece of dough and then my mom used to prepare a filling with a ground beef or sometimes with a potato, and then she make a fried dough with a filling, ground meat filling, or a potato filling. It was so yummy, so delicious. We were eating that just as a breakfast. Turkish breakfast, a little different than the other culture. It is so rich and so many items in that we generally just eat Turkish breakfast as a lunch and brunch. It's like a brunch, I would say. And so many items in that and so many hot appetizer in the menu. She used to make it as a weekend breakfast item and it was so delicious. The smell was so amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, I always joke that fried is my favorite food, so that sounds so delicious to me. Just the minute that you said fried, I was like, "Yes, please."
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, exactly. Anyway, it's turned out so perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
I know. It is like any carb, high carb things.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. And I love it that your dad was involved, that he was the one who bought the dough and then brought it home, and then your mom was the one who made it. It was like a family affair.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you were in middle school, you took a break from school for a few years and that was the time when you got super, super into baking. You've said that baking is an activity that maybe you learned to really love during that period of time. It's one that can give you solace and make you raise your spirits or put you in a better mindset.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. Exactly. Actually, I would say it wasn't easy for me as an extrovert teenager to be at home, but you find be it with any strange time. I find myself in the kitchen every single time and I feel lost and depressive, but this way, I find my passion and I was like, "Okay, I have to cook more." And then I was tasting and making new recipes every single time. It was exactly culinary school for me and then I learned everything from that day.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now I wonder if you could describe for us your baking or dessert style. Maybe tell us what inspires your recipes. I think it has maybe to do with a craving of home and maybe some nostalgia.
Betül Tunç:
Actually, I try to make what I really love and my family love. Maybe you just realize that I generally choose the recipes as their comfort for every culture, like a very common, delicious food. I'm not a person to try a different flavor with a different dish, so I always go with the comfort foods and everybody loves that and everybody loves a good pizza and delicious pastries and a good pastry cream in it, like those foods.
Jessie Sheehan:
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Peeps, have you heard about Cherry Bombe's Jubilee? It's our annual conference for women in food, drink, and hospitality, and it's happening Saturday, April 12th, in New York City. I always love being at Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry chefs, and cookbook authors. If you'd like to join us, you can get tickets at cherrybombe.com. If you're an official Bombesquad member, check your inbox for special member pricing. I hope to see you there. Now back to our guest.
And now you've also said in terms of your cooking philosophy, you want everything to taste delicious but also visually to bring about an emotional experience or at least be really beautiful and appetizing. Those two things go hand in hand in your baking and cooking.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely. It is so important for me. I'm not a picky person when I was a childhood, but I always choose my food based on how they look exactly. And then if they look delicious, I feel like, "Okay, I can eat that." And also, I can understand if the food is delicious when I see that. If I'm just searching any recipes in the online and on Instagram, if I'm just searching something in my explore page and I was like, "Okay, this is really good, I wanted to make it." If it's looks delicious, you feel like this is ... You have to understand it is so delicious based on while looking at the photo, it's important.
Jessie Sheehan:
You have described yourself as a croissant. Can you please unpack the qualities that make you a croissant?
Betül Tunç:
I'm a hard person. If you think the final product, you can't just say, "Yeah, this is so good, so delicious, then perfect," but look at the process and the making and a struggling process is so hard. So it is the only dish, only the item that I can explain myself. I'm a croissant. I'm not an easy person.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you talked about the layers. There are many layers to you. There are many layers to the croissant.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely. Definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I love that. So you are the founder of the social media phenomenon, Turkuaz Kitchen. You make these incredible vintage style videos with this very unique aesthetic, the wardrobe, the utensils, the cookware, everything is very 19th century, very deliberate, very thoughtful. Can you tell us how this idea came to you to dress like that in your videos and to have special equipment in your videos? Where did that come from?
Betül Tunç:
Thank you so much, first of all, for your kind words. Yeah, I love vintage always. It's because I think my mom, too, she really loved to use my grandma's antique tools and utensils in her kitchen. And also, just I think I have so many memories about that. So lovely memories from that days. And my mom is using my grandma's antique tools in her baking and cooking recipes, just baking and cooking while making something delicious. And also, just before start my Instagram journey, I had a small collection with my antique tools after starting to shoot my own recipes.
And then I just started to use my collection, antique collection, my antique tools and utensils for my photographs because I find them so aesthetic. I love them so much. And then I was shooting that kind of photographs before I start shooting videos. And then I switch my style into the videos and then it's randomly happened. And then people really love that kind of utensils to see the different old-fashioned items while making modern recipes. And then with their feedback according to their feedbacks and I find more items and then I try to just visit more antique stores and find different items from different antique stores. And just meanwhile it just happened. And then I find my own style just into a 18th-century kitchen.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that so much, Betül. And it also has a very theatrical quality. You've described yourself as an extrovert. I feel like there's something theatrical and very open and like, "Look at this," about what you do, which is so beautiful and fun and different than what anyone else is doing on the platform and on TikTok as well. It's so interesting and cool.
Betül Tunç:
Thank you. It is so nice to hear that from you, really.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw.
Betül Tunç:
And, yeah, I really love that and I'm so happy to hear the people's feedback about that. They find I'm so therapeutic. And then they watch them as a therapy and then they just keep saying me, "Betül, we watch them." Of course, they love my recipes and then they find them so helpful and they really love to try my recipes and trust recipes. But at the same time, some of the people they don't know cooking and baking, but they only watch the videos for a therapeutic reason, for the relax and a little bit and they say, "We want a peace in this chaotic world and on your videos and we really love to watch them just before go to bed," or some of the people, they are just saying, "We are watching your videos is because we are having really hard time and they help us to just deal with them." It is so kind and I love to hear that. And it's work. I think like you said, they're a little theatrical, but it's work to make people to feel a little more comfortable and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And also, it's like you're giving back to people what you felt with baking. It gave you solace and made you feel better in a dark time. And it's the style of the videos and being transported into this 19th-century kitchen is giving everyone else those feelings, too.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's really nice. And I think in the beginning, or maybe this is still true, you only ever really showed your hands not your face.
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And is that-
Betül Tunç:
It is a part of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's a part of it, too, that it's still your hands and the baked good. It's not your whole face.
Betül Tunç:
In just near future, I'm going to start YouTube videos with my antique historical kitchen. But, yes, it's going to be only on YouTube and I'm going to continue the style in Instagram ...
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Betül Tunç:
... because I love that.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then tell us about the clothes. Did you already have a collection of vintage clothes or was that something that you had to build up as you were thinking about the photographs and the videos?
Betül Tunç:
I love fashion. I had some kind of a very fancy, beautiful shirts and skirts before, but it started with an apron. I used just antique apron in my videos and people really loved that and they find it so beautiful. And then I purchase more items just like this and then I find my style. Actually, it is a, again, part of the brand and people really love to see the different outfit that I'm using in my videos. So I try to find the beautiful pieces from different store and then they find sometime from, again, antique stores and some of the belts and some of the beautiful fancy shirts. And I think, yes, this is another part of the videos.
Jessie Sheehan:
I read that your dad is a tailor, so maybe clothes are an important part. There are food in your family, but there's also clothes and fashion in your family.
Betül Tunç:
Has the most beautiful aesthetic.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, wow.
Betül Tunç:
I always ask him if I have something, if I'm going to do something. And I love his aesthetic. It is so beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love hearing that your choices about your content and about your artistry and your creativity are driven in part by what your followers and your people and the people that love you are telling you that they love. And then you said, "Oh, you guys love this apron. Okay, I'm going to get more aprons."
Betül Tunç:
It is the most important things just for me. I always listen my followers' feedbacks and just I love to listen them because they are the audience, they really want what I want to do. They really know what I want to see. And then even if I'm just creating a recipes, I listen their feedbacks and what they love exactly and then what they wanted to just try, which one is easy, what they wanted to see more.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Betül Tunç:
I always listen their feedbacks and what they say and then just I continue to create more content and just to do or change something according to their feedbacks. And it is the biggest role for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So it was your husband who encouraged you to get onto Instagram in the first place, correct? And he bought you your first camera, and when it was still not videos yet, he encouraged you. I think you were having maybe a little bit of a lonely time. You guys had just moved to Chicago. Instagram was ... Again, just like baking has helped you in a hard time, Instagram also helped in this instance.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, definitely. I wanted to just say ... I know he's going to just hear that, but I will love to just say that he's the biggest supporter of my life. I'm so lucky to have him really. He's the biggest chance in my life and he support me a lot. He believed than what I do myself. And so this is, I think, most important thing. And, yes, he encouraged me to start an Instagram page and he encouraged me to start to just shoot my own photographs and he just pushed me to start to shoot videos instead of photos and just he pushed me and then he just encouraged me a lot. And then, yes, I just owe so many things to him and thank you so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw, he sounds amazing. When it started, it was photographs, but you were using your vintage utensils and then vintage aprons, et cetera. And then when it became video, I think there was one video that really exploded. Was it a punching down dough video?
Betül Tunç:
Yes. The first viral video was bread recipe. I was making with some kind of a Turkish breakfast bread, we call it Acuka, it's like the breakfast bread, roasted pepper, red roasted pepper. So it was really delicious. And then people really love that bread recipe, but the video has started with a punching part, punching dough part. And then it was like, "Okay, what happened," because it was a hit and then immediately, that was 28K in the states and then the video went 1 million or something. And then it was a big hit for me. And then my husband again was like, "Okay, you find your thing and then you have to continue shoot more that kind of videos and people really love your dough recipes." And then I was like, "Okay, I have to show them one more." And then immediately, I made chocolate babka, it went 8 million. And then ...
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Betül Tunç:
... again after that, it was another viral video of mine. But I realized that people loved the punch down recipes. It was like a key and a starting point for my brand.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. And when you say punch down, we should picture a big ball of dough that has just risen and your fist going right down in the middle.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely, yes. It's starting with a perfect or risen dough and then I open it and then I just punching the dough. And then it was like ... It started it this way.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I mean now you have more than 10 million followers on Instagram and 2 million on TikTok and almost 4 million on YouTube. Maybe those numbers have even changed a little bit, but it's mind-boggling. I mean, I'm sure to you as well, it's just like, "Oh my gosh." When that first happened, was your jaw just on the ground?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, exactly. Until the book tour, I was seeing only numbers, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
They were number. Of course, I was getting so many beautiful DMs and messages from the people, but you can realize how big the love. But with my book tour, it was magical to see the people excitement and then to hear their feedbacks face to face and then seeing their excitement and then listening their stories and memories. I was like, "What I did exactly?" What I am doing, I can't stop doing it. It was exactly magical.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love that. I know we have to get into the book and the recipe, but just quickly, tell us about the incredible Anthropologie. Is it called the Posy Collection?
Betül Tunç:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Tell us about your partnership with Anthropologie.
Betül Tunç:
It was amazing. It was really great journey for me. I'm using different utensils in my recipes and my videos and then people keep asking me where they can find these items. And then I was always thinking to have my product line and then I went to my manager with the idea to have a product line with one of my favorite brands. And then she went to Anthropologie immediately and then the response were so positive from them and immediately we started to work with them. The team was so talented. The design team was amazing. I sent them to all of my just favorite items and then they came back to idea with like a Turkish pattern ideas. It was an amazing surprise for me. And then it was so lovely and people really loved them. It was a bestseller collection from Anthropologie and then they sold out immediately. They can just bring back some of the items again. I still ... I can't believe we did that and it was another magical journey for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I want to talk about your new book, “Turkuaz Kitchen.” It's 85 recipes for sweet and savory doughs and dishes to make with them. And you've said that dough chose you. You did not choose dough because that's what you grew up watching and making with your mother and your sister. But the inspiration is there's traditional Turkish recipes as well as recipes you've discovered while traveling. Were you approached? Did someone call you and say, "Would you like to write a cookbook?" or did you know you wanted to write a cookbook? How did it come to be?
Betül Tunç:
I have always a dream. It wasn't one of my childhood dream. It was just ... You have to see my childhood notebook. I just have so many page with my signature because I was pretending signing my cookbook. It was a dream of mine, my childhood dream. I knew sometime I'm going to write my cookbook, but you have some dreams, you never just feel like it's going to come out so early and then sometime. You feel, but you never can believe it. Yeah, I always had an idea when I get popular in social media, I get different offer from different publisher. I got so many offer and then I was like, "Okay, I think this is the time."
First of all, I'm so scared because I was so new. And then I was like, "If I can do that." And then my husband again, he said, "You are doing that exactly right now. You are preparing recipes and then you are sharing with the people. What is the difference? Why you're just so scared to have this with this idea?" And it was like, "Okay, no, this is different because it is so more serious and this is a huge project." And then he was like, "No, I believe in you. You can do that." And then we started to work with Ten Speed from Penguin Random House. And then we talked with my editor and was like, "Okay, I'm doing it." And then I know just what I'm going to do and then I have an idea and I have so many recipes, but I have to just organize it and to just decide what I'm going to do.
It was the most beautiful, at the same time, it was the hardest journey in my life. There are so many similarity with my first pregnancy. I feel like I give birth my second child right now. It was just like my first pregnancy. You're so care. What are you doing exactly? You have so many concern. And then you wanted to do everything so beautiful and you are so careful and then you don't know, you don't have any experience. And it was just complicated, but it was really so ... Again, it is so lovely. And then you wanted to just enjoy all of the just process and then to feel like, "Whoa, I am just working on my childhood dream," just kind of things, but it was amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. Now finally, we're going to talk about Turkish Pistachio Baklava. This is a dough from the Turkish dough chapter of the book and baklava is a world-renowned Turkish dessert. There are two versions. There's a bakery version and then there's a homestyle baklava version, which we're going to talk about. Can you tell us about the bakery version is quite challenging with lots of thin sheets of dough rolled out by master bakers? It's not something the home cook would necessarily do or the home baker.
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. It is a little different because the dough include only just a few ingredients, basic ingredients, flour, water, and sometimes just only a little bit egg. It is so hard to roll it so thin. So because it is a little tough dough, you can roll it as a homemaker. You have to roll it so thin. So for this reason, there are two type. In the house, people are just adding a little more ingredients such as oil, milk, and sometimes yogurt to make the dough a little bit softer and then to roll it easier. It is really hard to make. It is not easy recipe. So I'm so happy to talk about the Turkish baklava today because I know this is the hardest recipe in this cookbook and there's so many tips and so many different techniques to make it perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Betül Tunç:
But again, I try to find the easiest way to make it because we added butter and neutral oil and a little bit milk and then the dough is so soft and so easy to roll, to make it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Your eldest sister is a baklava master. I love this. Before developing the recipe for your cookbook, you had never made baklava before because it involves cornstarch. Cornstarch triggers you. You hate the way it feels. So you had to begin your baklava journey with gloved hands, which I just think is totally hilarious and awesome. What's great about this recipe is you just roll it out with a simple roller. It's loaded with delicious like deeply aromatic Turkish pistachios, although you can substitute walnuts or regular pistachios. How are Turkish pistachios different and are they easy to buy at a specialty grocery store? Where could we find them if we wanted them for this recipe?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, exactly. It is totally different than regular pistachio. It is so delicious. I highly recommend to use Turkish pistachio for the baklava, even if they're making baklava with a store-bought phyllo dough, it is not important. But this Turkish pistachio is totally different. The smell is different, the taste is so different, and also the color is so different. So if they can't find the pistachio, I would love to just recommend them to use walnut instead of pistachio. It makes it a little bit delicious and it is so good, but it is easy to find. I find a brand because I generally just buy them from Turkey when I visit Turkey every summer and then I just bring some of them with me. But this time, I was testing recipe for cookbook. I taste just several times and then I just finalize, well, just finish all of my just pistachios and I have to find a good quality Turkish pistachio and I find the brand, it's called Nuts US. I love their products and then they're just like what I buy from Turkey. It is so delicious and the smell is so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
So in a medium bowl ... In your videos, you'd be doing this in a ceramic bowl or maybe something from your Anthropologie line. But if you're off camera, is there a specific mixing bowl you like to use or do you use a ceramic bowl even when you're off camera?
Betül Tunç:
I love using glass bowl. It is my go-to.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Betül Tunç:
I don't know why because I got to use them in Turkey. Just it is a tradition for me. I generally use just glass bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Me, too. So in a medium bowl, we're going to whisk and do you have a specific whisk that you like when you're not on camera?
Betül Tunç:
I use dough hook generally from Williams Sonoma.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
If I'm just whisking dough and we can use any kind of dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to whisk some room-temperature milk. And is it usually whole milk?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, whole milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Is this the place where we might substitute some yogurt if we wanted?
Betül Tunç:
No. Naturally, it is a little bit different. They can use instant milk because the texture is different and then it's just affect the texture. Let's go with-
Jessie Sheehan:
With milk. Okay. So we'll whisk some room-temperature whole milk, we'll whisk an egg, some melted unsalted butter, and some neutral oil. Why do we want butter and oil?
Betül Tunç:
It's affect the texture. I love to use neutral oil from our dough because it's affect texture a little bit slightly and it's make it a little softer instead of butter. So I generally use hazelnut oil when I was in Turkey. It was so common, I was using always in my baking recipes, but in here, I found peanut oil instead. I really love to use that. I prefer to use peanut oil, but they can use neutral oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're also going to add a little bit of apple cider vinegar. So I had two questions. First of all, is there a brand and also are we adding the vinegar to curdle the milk almost like we're replicating buttermilk with that tang?
Betül Tunç:
You can think we are making buttermilk, but also we love to use vinegar if we wanted to make any like a flaky dough. It is my mom rule. In my pie dough recipes and biscuit recipes and whenever I'm making just I wanted to make and it's like a flaky dough, I always add a little bit vinegar in my ...
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that.
Betül Tunç:
... dough. Make it a little bit flaky.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Betül Tunç:
Because we wanted to just have a flaky baklava. So for this reason, we add apple cider vinegar, but, of course, they can use ... The other day, I was making again one more time, I use white vinegar.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to add some all-purpose flour and some salt. Do you like to use kosher salt?
Betül Tunç:
Yes. If I have kosher salt, I use kosher salt for my dough, but they can use any kind of salt, too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And now using our hand in a claw shape, we are going to stir and squeeze the ingredients together for two to three minutes until everything begins to come together. And I had two questions. One, do you ever use ... I know not in a video, but would you ever use a stand mixer or a hand mixer when making dough?
Betül Tunç:
First of all, I use stand mixer for all my enriched dough because enriched dough is so different than the other doughs. You have to knead it so well. It is so hard to make it by hand. So I always use a stand mixer for my enriched dough, but for that kind of dough recipes, it is so easy to make. I never just ... I feel like, "Oh, oh my god, this is too much to use stand mixer, I can make it really fast because I got to use just my hands." It's just make it easier for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
How come we don't put two hands in?
Betül Tunç:
Because you have to use the other hands to hold the bowl. It's going to make it a little bit easier to handle all of the pieces, otherwise your water pan is so dirty, you can just handle it and what are you going to put? And if the bowl is moving and you're going to just try to handle, how are you going to push it, just keep it in the same place? It's just my style to hold the bowl with my hand, the other hand using just and knead the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now we're going to turn the dough out onto a work surface. And do we need to flour our work surface?
Betül Tunç:
No, no, not need because it's a very buttery dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll use both hands and we'll just perform a basic kneading technique on the dough for about six to eight minutes until smooth. Can you tell us what would you say your basic kneading technique is?
Betül Tunç:
Exactly. It is the really common techniques and then I use this technique so much and also, I explain it in my cookbook because people are just keep asking me how they're going to knead the dough effectively because kneading is so important for the perfect dough. So first of all, if they need, they can just like the flour work service. I'm not mentioning it in the recipe, they not need to just add a flour. So first of all, they're going to just turn out to just transfer the dough onto a work service. And then using their hands, they're going to gently press the dough and push it away from themself. And then again, they're going to use their fingers, they can use their fingers. And then using their fingers, they're going to draw it back toward themself and then rotate the dough about four to five degree and then repeat this process five, 10 minutes depend on the recipe instruction.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you're pushing it away almost like with the palm of your hand?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, exactly.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then pulling it back on top of itself, turning and pushing out again with the palm of your hand. And then once it's smooth, we'll cover with plastic wrap and we'll let it rest for about one and a half hours at room temperature. Does the dough change at this time? Does it look different after an hour and a half?
Betül Tunç:
Definitely. First of all, it will not look so perfect. It is going to be still looks like a little type of rough dough and then they can feel like, "Oh, this is not perfect," it's total okay. And then one and a half hours later, they're going to see the dough is getting a little softer and the texture is a little bit different because the gluten just appear a little bit more and then it's affect the texture. It is totally okay, and every single part, it's going to be more beautiful.
Jessie Sheehan:
After one and a half hours, we'll return the dough to the work surface and we'll continue to knead it for about three to five minutes more. Then we will return it to the bowl again. This time, we're going to cover it and let it rest for about one and a half to two hours. And what will it look like after that second long rest?
Betül Tunç:
It is going to be perfect dough. It is going to be so smooth and like a Play-Doh. It is going to look like a Play-Doh. It is not like a too hard but soft, perfectly smooth and very beautiful Play-Doh.
Jessie Sheehan:
So while the dough is resting, we're going to make the syrup. And in a saucepan, what kind of saucepan are you using when you're not using a vintage saucepan?
Betül Tunç:
Generally use ... What was the name? All-Clad-
Jessie Sheehan:
I was just going to say, was it All-Clad?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, All-Clad.
Jessie Sheehan:
In a saucepan, we're going to stir together some granulated sugar, some water and some salt. And this is essentially like a simple syrup, but I wondered why are we adding a little bit of salt?
Betül Tunç:
Because this is my older sister's secret. She always add a little bit of salt in her simple syrup because it just appeared to taste a little bit more like affect the test a little bit. I generally ... People can realize that I generally use a little bit salt for all of my dessert recipes or my sweet recipes, a little bit sugar for my savory recipes. It is a secret to make the delicious pastry. Again, she just add a little bit salt to make it tastier.
Jessie Sheehan:
In my last cookbook, it's a savory baking book and I put a little bit of sugar in so many of the batters and the doughs, even though they're savory recipes, because it seasons the dough. Just like salt does, I put the sugar in the savory recipe because it seasons it.
Betül Tunç:
Totally agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So now we're going to bring that to a boil over medium-high heat. And once it's boiling, we're going to squeeze in some lemon juice and add some lemon rind. Why are we adding the juice in the rind? Is that just for flavor?
Betül Tunç:
We are adding the lemon juice because we don't want it to just crystallize meanwhile because it's going to just help to keep it perfect texture. And also, I'm adding lemon with whole lemon in this syrup. It's give a little bit flavor. So it is good.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now we're going to reduce the heat to medium, low, and simmer for about 11 to 13 minutes. And I love this tip. The syrup is ready when you dip a teaspoon into the syrup, and when you shake off a little bit of excess, the remaining syrup slowly drips off the spoon. I love that description. And if it falls quickly off the spoon, then you need to simmer for two to three minutes more.
Betül Tunç:
Yes. And also, plus, if they're using internal temperature, they can just check with the internal temperature. It must be just 215 to 220 for a night, but I wanted to just give this quick tip if they don't have an internal temperature.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to remove the syrup from the heat and we'll let it cool to room temperature. Now we're going to take our dough, we're going to turn it out onto a lightly floured work surface. We're going to roll the dough into a log and using a sharp knife or a bench scraper, we're going to cut it into 20 equal portions. When you do this at home, do you weigh them?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, I generally do that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And then we're going to take each little piece and we're going to roll it into a smooth ball. When you're turning it into a ball, do you do that trick where you're pulling the top of the dough underneath the bottom or is it more just rolling between two hands?
Betül Tunç:
First of all, I piece the edges, the dough together to make a rough ball and then I'm rolling it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice. And then we're going to place each ball on a plate just as we work and cover them with plastic wrap. I assume we don't want a dry skin to form on the dough while we're working.
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to finish up our recipe. So in a small saucepan, before we start rolling out our dough, in a small saucepan, we're going to melt some unsalted butter, some neutral oil again and mix that together. And again, why are we adding both butter? I know before, we added the oil to the dough in addition to the butter for the texture and the malleability of the dough, but why are we adding the oil here?
Betül Tunç:
Because it make it a little not so heavy. Using only butter is make it a little heavy and then you can eat so much. My older sister always just add a little bit, just neutral oil, and sometimes she add a little bit cream, too. But I didn't add this time.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to lightly cover our work surface with cornstarch. So you probably have gloves on because you hate cornstarch.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely. But the other day, I had to taste ... I have to just make the recipe. I shoot the recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
I have to make it for my Instagram page and I didn't use gloves because of the reason and it was awful. And then just after the shooting, you had to see my lips because I bite them so much randomly because I'm touching the cornstarch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes.
Betül Tunç:
And it was just so interesting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's hilarious. So we're going to lightly cover our work surface with cornstarch and we're going to place one of the balls of dough on the surface. And using a rolling pin, we're going to roll it into a six-to-seven-inch round. Is there a particular type of rolling pin or a brand of rolling pin that you like?
Betül Tunç:
Generally, I use a just hand rolling pin. I found them from an antique store. Just make it a little easier. They can use any like a rolling pin for this part. But, yeah, just I use hand style small rolling pin that I found from antique store.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we are going to add a tablespoon of cornstarch on top of the dough and cover it evenly, rub it in with our hands. Then we're going to take another ball of dough, do the exact same thing and stack one on top of the other, but we're going to shingle it a teeny bit, which I think just means we don't put one exactly on top of the other. We put one down and then one that's slightly off center on top.
Betül Tunç:
Yes, yes, because we don't want it to just stick them together and then we can make sure they're together but they're not sticking together.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to make sure that we've really nicely covered in cornstarch so they don't stick.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we'll continue to make 10 stacks of two pieces of dough. So 10 total, 20 rounds total.
Betül Tunç:
Yes. But just, yeah, group of two.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, groups of two. Then we'll take two. And now we're actually going to put them right on top of each other, yes? And we're going to use a long rolling pin maybe with tapered edges. I wondered about when you said long, should it be extra long? Is that important? I know there is ... Is it called a Turkish oklava?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely. This is so important. I really wanted to just talk about this part because it's so important to roll the dough as thin as possible. So this is the secret to make it a little thin, a little more than normal, but if they're using a regular rolling pin, they can make group of four because it can make it a little easier and because it's going to be a little bit thicker dough and then they can make it a little bit easier. So otherwise, I highly recommend to use Turkish oklava or a little bit longer rolling pin to roll it as thin as possible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you describe a Turkish oklava?
Betül Tunç:
It is very long and thin rolling pin, wooden pin. If wanted to just use the rolling pin, we generally use this one. I started to use the other one in here in the US right after moving here. We generally roll the dough around the rolling pin with dough pieces and then push and rock the pin a few times, then unroll the dough and then repeat the process starting from another side to make evenly flat and as thin as possible. This is just the technique to roll the baklava dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Did you say that we're rolling the dough around?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, around the rolling pin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Betül Tunç:
This is the reason why are we using only just thin and long rolling pin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. But you're saying that if it's too hard for people to do just two rounds ... Because we're rolling it into an 18-to-20-inch round. You're saying if it's too much for people to do that with just two rounds because it has to be so thin, you can do it with four?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, you can make group of four. And also, to be honest, they can't roll the dough into just 18 to 20 inch if they're using only regular rolling pin. But it was only just to roll it as much as thin as they can.
Jessie Sheehan:
I understand. Yeah, 18 to 20 inch would just be way too big. I understand.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to sprinkle this large, large circle with additional cornstarch to make it easy to roll. And then when it's big and thin, we'll take a nine by 13-inch baking dish and we will place it down and we will use a knife to cut out a nine by 13-inch rectangle. So I had a couple of questions. When you place the nine by 13 inch, are you using a metal pan?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, yeah, I generally use Cuisinart Art.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, because I assume you want the edges to be sharp. You want a sharp rectangle.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, not need exactly because we're going to cut it down and then not need to be so sharp.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Betül Tunç:
But they can use metal one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay-
Betül Tunç:
But it's okay if you're using a glass one, too, or bake any big dish.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So in other words, the corners of the rectangle don't have to be super sharp.
Betül Tunç:
No, no, no, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, okay. And now could you also just use a ruler for cutting out the nine by 13-inch shape? If you didn't want to use a pan, could you just measure it out with a ruler?
Betül Tunç:
I never use it, but, yeah, of course, definitely. Why not?
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Betül Tunç:
If they can just make it same in the techniques and then they can use.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. And then for cutting, do you like to use a paring knife? Do you like to use a chef's knife?
Betül Tunç:
I use generally chef knife.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So we're going to trace the bottom of the baking dish onto the dough and cut. And then we're going to place that dough rectangle right into the base of the dish that we just used for cutting, yes?
Betül Tunç:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
That we just used as our template. And then we're going to take the scraps of the dough because that was a really big circle. We cut out the nine by 13-inch shape. Then we'll use the scraps to make another layer of dough on top. Is that correct?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely. We are using the remaining part as a second layer because we wanted to make 40 layer ... The rule for the baklava, it has to be just 40 layer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
So we are trying to make sure we are making for the layer of the dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. 40 layers. Okay. So now we take those scraps and we ... It's a jigsaw puzzle. We just put them on top of the first piece just trying to fill out the gaps and make it cover, yes?
Betül Tunç:
Definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, perfect. Perfect. Then we are going to drizzle two tablespoons of that butter oil mixture over our two layers. And then we're going to repeat this process of rolling out, cutting out the shape, using the scraps, drizzling our oil and butter. We'll do that with four stacks of dough, which is basically eight of our round. We'll have eight layers.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Now we're going to spread some coarsely, ground Turkish Antep pistachios. First of all, how did we grind them? So it says coarsely ground. Do we do that in a food processor?
Betül Tunç:
Of course. They can put it in the Ziploc and then they can just-
Jessie Sheehan:
And they can crush it. Great.
Betül Tunç:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
And when you say spread, are we sprinkling them on or is there a lot of nut butter, so it's almost like it's spreadable?
Betül Tunç:
No, no, no. We are going to just using our hands, we are going to spread evenly.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. So we'll spread it with the pistachios. Then we're going to roll out two more dough stacks, so that'll be four more layers and put those on top of the pistachio with the drizzle. And then we're going to add more pistachios and then continue another layer of pistachios and then continue to roll and add the dough layers until all the dough has been used up.
Betül Tunç:
Definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yay.
Betül Tunç:
You made it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then at this point, do we need to press down at all or do we need to chill or we just preheat our oven and it's time to bake?
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Betül Tunç:
And then we are done and we are going to cut it right now if we're done.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, right. Yes. So we use a sharp knife. Again, is this still the chef's knife?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, of course. It has to be sharp.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And we're going to cut the baklava into one and a half inch squares. And are you cutting all the way through or are you just scoring the top?
Betül Tunç:
No, we have to just cut it all of the way through.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. And is it pretty easy to do if your knife is sharp?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Perfect.
Betül Tunç:
It's totally fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because the dough is so thin, the layers are so thin. Now we're going to pour the remaining butter and oil evenly over the top. And then you write, be careful to avoid the milk solids on the bottom of the pan. The milk solids are coming from the melted butter?
Betül Tunç:
Yes, definitely. If they feel like, "Oh, okay, maybe I can use the milk liquid for the baklava," they have to be careful to avoid it. They can just pour the melted butter, first of all, in another bowl and then they can add the neutral oil over top. Otherwise, they have to make sure they never use the milk liquids.
Jessie Sheehan:
Why? What happens if you add the milk solids?
Betül Tunç:
It affects the texture and also it's going to give it some kind of like a ... What can I just say? They make a little shape and then-
Jessie Sheehan:
Almost like a little curdle.
Betül Tunç:
Curdle.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, definitely.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the milk solids come from the melted butter cooling a little bit?
Betül Tunç:
At the bottom, you have some milky weight at the bottom, so we don't want it to just use this one, so they have to make sure we are just not using it. Otherwise, just they can pour the melted part and then they can add the neutral oil after that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. So we're going to bake the baklava in a 350-degree oven until it's golden brown, about 45 to 50 minutes. Then we'll let it rest for about two to three minutes before pouring the cooled syrup that we made over the hot baklava. And then we will set this aside at room temperature to allow that syrup to fully soak in. I bet the fact that it's hot allows that syrup to really soak in for four to five hours or even overnight.
Betül Tunç:
Yeah, it can seem a little too much syrup. They can feel, "Okay, I added too much." No, no, no. It's going to soak all of the syrup and it is totally okay.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to serve slices with remaining pistachios either beneath or on top or both of the baklava pieces. This sounds so delicious, Betül. I want it right now.
Betül Tunç:
We have right now in the kitchen. Do you want some? I wish.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm coming to Virginia. I want to come over.
Betül Tunç:
Oh, please, please come visit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Betül, and I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Betül Tunç:
Oh, thank you so much. It was so nice to be here and then to chat with you. Thank you so much for having me.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.