Carla Hall Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
My guest today is Carla Hall. Carla is a chef, cookbook author, TV personality, and producer. You probably know her from “Top Chef” and Food Network and from her years co-hosting “The Chew.” She's also the star and executive producer of the Emmy Award-winning food and travel show, “Chasing Flavor,” where she shares the history behind some of America's most popular foods. Currently, she's a co-mentor on the new show, “Next Level Baker” on Fox, which is a spinoff of the cooking competition series, “Next Level Chef.” In this series, bakers are challenged to create show-stopping holiday treats. The show has two episodes out now, and the series finale is December 18th, and you can catch all the episodes on YouTube. Carla is also the author of several cookbooks, including “Carla Hall's Soul Food,” and a few children's books, including the newly released “Carla and the Tin Can Cake Party.” She launched a magazine earlier this year called Sweet Heritage and has a kitchenware line by the same name. Carla also has a line of tarts at fresh markets around the country called Carla Hall's Sweet Heritage Tarts. Carla joins me to talk about her incredible life and career, including her time in Paris as a model where her love of cooking was born, how “Top Chef” changed her life, about her new podcast that brings her so much joy, and all about her new show, “Next Level Baker.” Then she walks me through her recipe for gingerbread cake with snow sugar, a perfect addition to any holiday table. I loved learning about why Carla adds hot water to the cake batter, spoiler alert for added moisture, why she uses the reverse creaming method for this particular cake, and all about snow sugar, which I did not even know existed, and you are going to want to make it and dust it over all your holiday treats. Carla has such an infectious spirit and joy for life. I know you're going to love our conversation as much as I did, so stay tuned. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com.
Today's episode is presented by Diamond of California Nuts, the century-old nut brand you know and love. As we're gearing up for holiday baking season, my favorite season, make sure you're stocked up on all the baking nuts you'll need, and with Diamond, you know you're getting guaranteed fresh quality. You can really taste the difference. Diamond has us covered with all the nuts, whole, chopped, sliced, and even in shell too, if you're ever in the mood to crack some walnuts. Hey, maybe you have a nutcracker. I'll go with the chopped walnuts, which I put in my crazy, delicious chocolate marshmallow walnut fudge. The pecans are a must in my chocolate bourbon pecan pie. And I also love using them to make candied nuts for holiday gifting. That's when I want to be using the best ingredients I can find. So when you're at the grocery store, look for the nuts in the white bag with the red Diamond logo in the baking aisle. That's your sign you're getting premium quality nuts that bakers have trusted for generations. Visit diamondnuts.com to find a store nearest you and to explore their fan favorite recipes like walnut butter cookies. Yum. Happy baking.
Today's episode is presented by California Prunes. I'm looking at a bunch of bananas on my counter right now, just waiting to be turned into my chocolate prune and creme fresh banana bread. The prunes get deliciously soft and jammy as they bake. They're one of my favorite secret ingredients. They're also super good for you, which is a bonus. Did you know that prunes are packed with dietary fiber? Okay. Yes, you probably did. But they also support bone health, which is extra important to me. And they're packed with vitamins and antioxidants, so much goodness. Whenever I am looking to add a little natural sweetness to something, from my morning smoothie to an oatmeal cookie, I know prunes will do just the trick. One of my favorite ways to use them is in my sticky toffee pudding snacking cake. Yes, I turned this beloved pudding into a snacking cake, and it's so goo,d peeps. I swap prunes in for the traditional dates, which adds a more intense fruitiness and aren't quite as sweet. The result is the perfect ratio of sweet, salty, and sticky, and it's so easy to assemble. Trust me, you'll want to make this dessert soon. If you're looking to add more prunes to your baking, know that they pair brilliantly with other deep, complex flavors, especially chocolate. Or chop them up to use as you would any other dried fruit in your granola or cookies. It's hard to go wrong. For more info and creative recipes, check out the California Prunes website at californiaprunes.org. That's californiaprunes.org.
Cake lovers. Did you see the new issue of Cherry Bombe Magazine? It's all about cake and features three incredible self-taught cake artists on the covers. Lucie Franc de Ferriere of From Lucie, Aimee France, AKA yungkombucha420, and Amy Yip of Yip.Studio. All three discovered their passion for cake making and design out of necessity during the pandemic and transformed their hobbies into thriving careers. You'll love getting to know these women in our cover stories. What else is in this issue? A bounty of delicious cake recipes, profiles of even more incredible cake artists, stories of nonprofits using cakes for a good cause, and inspiring bake sale, and so much more. To snag the mag, head to cherrybombe.com or find a copy at your local bookstore. You can find us in some great places across the country, like Moon Palace Books in Minneapolis, Lady Bird Books in Charleston, Matriarch in Newport, Rhode Island, Bold Fork Books in Washington D.C. and Brookline Booksmith in Brookline, Mass, my hometown. For a full list of retailers, visit cherrybombe.com.
Let's chat with today's guest. Carla, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk gingerbread cake with snow sugar with you, and so much more.
Carla Hall:
I am so happy to be here. You are a ray of sunshine and so much energy to be matched with, so I'm super excited.
Jessie Sheehan:
So you were born and raised in Nashville. Can you tell me about an early sweet eating memory, maybe a baking memory if you have one too, from your childhood there?
Carla Hall:
I want to start with my eating memory. My grandmother, Freddie Mae Glover, I talk about her a lot. Her five-flavor pound cake was everything to me. So the five flavors were lemon, vanilla, almond, coconut, and rum. And this was the cake that we had for holidays. This was the cake that she would ship when we were in college. Wrapped in wax paper and all the things. That was really, I feel like the first thing that I remember eating. It would be in this tin. You know those little-
Jessie Sheehan:
Like a bun cake or no?
Carla Hall:
It wasn't a bunt. It was a tube. It was made in a tube pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tube pan. Yes. Yes.
Carla Hall:
And I actually had her tube pan. I feel like it was made in an angel food pan because you know those little brackets that are in the top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, the little feet.
Carla Hall:
Yeah. The feet. So you turned it upside down and stayed. Oh my God, yes. As a child, I never understood it. And she would put it in those tins. Cake tins. Was like a cookie tin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
So that was my first memory. In terms of baking, I only baked something for a Girl Scout badge, and it was an apple crumble. And my mother was the troop leade,r and I remember wanting this little girl on my street to come and have some. So when I got there, she wasn't ready. So her grandmother was like, "Well, her hair needs to be combed." So I'm like, "Okay, I'll comb her hair." By the time I got home, the crumble was gone, so I never tasted it, but I did get the badge.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Good. Good. Good. And you got to comb some hair.
Carla Hall:
Correct.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now you've said that your mom didn't teach you to cook because she actually couldn't really cook, maybe had five dishes, but you did write about her epic ketchup-covered meatloaf. Was that like her one thing? Because I'm a meatloaf fanatic.
Carla Hall:
Oh, okay. We can be friends.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good. Okay, good.
Carla Hall:
Because I love meatloaf.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good.
Carla Hall:
My mother made ... The five things were meatloaf, chicken in a bag, and I helped. You know, shake and bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, that's my childhood too.
Carla Hall:
Pot roast, Hamburger Helper. And I'm going to put Hamburger Helper with tuna in the same thing. And then she would do pancakes. Breakfast for dinner. So she made really great pancakes. But this meatloaf, to this very day, I really love meatloaf. And I think I make a really great meatloaf. And with that ketchup glaze. I have been known to go to a restaurant ... It was the Marshall. I think it was on 10th Avenue in New York City years ago. I had meatloaf reuben from there. And so it was meatloaf and Swiss cheese and it had a Russian dressing on it. And it was the most delicious thing. And it was on toasted rye. And I took a bite. I remember it like it was yesterday and I started giggling. I was like, "Oh my God, this is so good." And everybody up to this point were sharing their dishes. And I started laughing because I'm like, "I'm not sharing this with anyone. This is mine." And then I was laughing so hard and the people were looking at me and I started crying because it was so delicious. And in that moment, I realized the reason I love meatloaf was because of my mother's meatloaf.
So even though I say she didn't cook, she still gave me these food memories, which I hold so close. And my husband made meatloaf for me, one of the first meals that he actually cooked for me. Yeah, I love meatloaf.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I love that. I have that too because I didn't grow up in a family of cooks, but there were certain things that when your mother makes or when your father makes, that will always be in your head as something. And I noticed it with my own kids, like stuff that I didn't think ... I know I didn't do a very good job with just because it was fast and whatever. My son Oliver will be like, "Mom, make the blankety blank." And I'm like, "Okay."
Carla Hall:
That was so 20 years ago.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. Okay, sweetie, whatever you want. Your mom maybe didn't teach you to cook, maybe wasn't a great cook, but your grandmothers were really good cooks, both of them.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
But they didn't really teach you either. And I wondered about that. Was it just that they weren't interested, or was it that you weren't interested, or was it a combo?
Carla Hall:
I think it was, I wasn't expected to be in the kitchen. If you're not expected to be there, my appreciation from food came from eating it, not making it. I loved food when I was a kid. I would eat one thing. If I liked, let's say, okay, this is my orange season. I would eat an entire bag of oranges. Then I wouldn't have oranges for a long time. And then I would have that whatever candy bar. And then I would eat that for a month and I wouldn't have it again. With my grandmothers, both Thelma and Freddie Mae, I would eat their food and then I could picture it. I could smell it. When I am cooking to this very day, my food memory and senses are so heightened. And this is the thing that I tell people, when you are trying to recreate a recipe, a lot of times people spend so much time looking for the recipe, but if you allow yourself to feel the senses, what were you smelling? What do you see? What were you touching? What were you tasting? What was the conversation? That will get you closer to the recipe than actually having the piece of paper because it's in your body. And now if you just focus on the paper, it's only intellectual.
And so I think that's why I consider myself the culinary matriarch of my family, and it's because I'm so connected to the food that now I can recreate it for my family.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by King Arthur Baking Company. They're one of our go-to flours and baking resources with over 2,000 test kitchen-tested recipes, plus virtual and on-demand classes. And this is the time of year we need the most holiday baking season. King Arthur has everything you need for your impressive holiday bakes, breads, and pies. I've got my eye on the cinnamon sugar donut muffins. If you want to win your cookie swap, check out their cookie survival guide with curated recipes, tips, and timelines, or maybe you want to master the lattice on your apple pie, which you can learn in their on-demand classes. They just dropped so many new ones with everything from macarons to a show-stopping Bûche De Noël. You've been wanting to make one, so let this be your sign to do it this year. Oh, and the best part is they even have a baker's hotline you can call for any of your baking questions. Seriously, any questions. Learn more at kingarthurbaking.com.
If you're looking for some excellent and unique holiday gifts, Cherry Bombe has great options for you. From now until the end of the year, you can get 20% off Jubilee tickets when you buy two or more. Jubilee is our annual conference happening on Saturday, April 25th, in New York City, and it's a beautiful day filled with talks and panels, networking, and great food and drink. What else? There's the “Cherry Bombe Cookbook,” back issues of Cherry Bombe Magazine, a yearly subscription to the magazine, and a subscription to our Substack. There are fun benefits to being a paid Substack subscriber, like access to monthly virtual meetings featuring experts in the food, drin,k and hospitality industries. These would all be great gifts for foodie friends, colleagues, loved ones, or for yourself. Head to cherrybombe.com to shop and learn more. Now back to our guest.
So you ended up going to Howard University. You studied accounting after college, got an accounting job at Pricewaterhouse, hated it so much that you moved to Paris to become a model, had done a little modeling fashion shows while in university. And so interesting, Carla, but Paris is where you actually got excited about food and realized you didn't know how to cook. And I love this. You started buying cookbooks, so I want to hear about the cookbooks. You were cooking for your fellow Southern models who were also missing food from home. Tell us all about this.
Carla Hall:
So in Paris, this woman named Elaine Evans was a mom and auntie to all of us, and she would get together. It was very similar to our Sunday suppers. The socialization that happens in the kitchen. And that part I was used to. There was macaroni and cheese, buffalo wings. Sometimes greens with the turnip tops that nobody's really eating. They had the turnips like, "Oh, hey, can we get the turnip tops?" And so these are the kinds of things that we would have. We didn't have it every day. I never had the boxed macaroni and cheese. After that, I started going to the American bookstore and buying cookbooks and then cooking for the people who allowed me to sleep on their couches. It was like an act of gratitude and I just kept doing it and I did it for a couple of years. And then when I went home, I started a lunch delivery service because all of a sudden I'm like, "Wow. Oh, I do know how to cook. At least sell a little bit."
Jessie Sheehan:
You came back, you ended up having a catering business, culinary school, “Top Chef” calls one day in 2008. In terms of your career, do you consider that the break moment?
Carla Hall:
I do. I auditioned for “Top Chef,” not even thinking that it was going to come to pass. It was really about having an adventure and saying, "Okay, sure. I'll try it out. I'll fill out the application." And then they called me. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Before that, I had done one show on Food Network, which was a competition show, a one-off. I was 44 when I did “Top Chef.” I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, I saw you in the beginning." I'm like, "I was 44."
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Well, you've lived many lives.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have lived many as well. It's like sometimes it takes us a little longer. We don't know at 14 that, "Oh yeah, I think I'm going to be a cook or I'm going to be a baker."
Carla Hall:
And you know the other thing I think about doing “Top Chef” and doing theater ... And I went to theater camp for a long time. I'm okay with being my quirky self. If someone called me weird, I'm like, "Oh my God, thank you."
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you. My husband and I always said to our kids growing up, "Let your freak flag fly."
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Those are the most interesting people later on in life. It's hard to be weird when you're young because kids are mean, but eventually those are the interesting people. Tend to be the artists, the creative types that you want to be friends with anyway.
Carla Hall:
That's exactly it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
So I feel like when we were doing the OTFs, or on-the-fly interviews, I was just free to talk about myself. And it also felt like a little bit of therapy, I think. That said, you are afraid of being rejected and going home. So I remember when I'm standing at the judges table and it was “Restaurant Wars,” it was season five and I thought I was going to go home. I had a terrible bake because I put the wrong extract in my chocolate cake and it was between myself and Rasika going home. And I remember looking at the judges and my heart is beating and I'm looking directly at Padma and I'm just staring at her. And then I thought, "Oh my gosh, wait, nobody's ever died here." What is the worst thing? First of all, I'm afraid of heights, but I'm not high up and no one has ever died. And I remember just looking at Padma like, okay, everything's fine. And I didn't go home and I felt I was free to actually ... After putting things into perspective, I was free to do my food. So that's when I actually started winning after that challenge.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. That's so interesting. And “Top Chef “then of course led to “The Chew,” which you co-hosted for seven years, and now your own show, “Chasing Flavor,” will you tell it ... And the Emmy award-winning? Congratulations, Carla. Oh my God, how did that feel?
Carla Hall:
Thank you so much. That show actually came out of a conversation at dinner at someone's house. And I said, one of the things that I do when I'm in a car service and someone is from a different country, I'm like, oh, instead of saying, "How are you doing?" I'm like, "What's a dish that you miss from home?" And you watch their facial expressions change because it's a very different question. It's a very personal question. And then people are telling me about this food and who makes it and how they're enjoying it. And I loved it. So I was talking about this. I went from there to talking to people about doing a show. It literally happened like that. It took two years before we got it off the ground, but this show was about showing all of these different iterations of a dish from maybe we picked a root from one culture and how it would change hands when another culture intersected with it and then another culture intersects with it.
Because when we see food here in America, we're like, "Oh, this is American." But no, it is a line of all of these different cultures that had a hand in this dish. And this show was about giving credit to all of those people who had a hand in this dish. And it was just amazing. And I traveled and I talked to so many different people and it was exciting and emotional, but it was all this storytelling around food and culture.
Jessie Sheehan:
One thing I wanted to ask you about is the new podcast. Chewed Up.
Carla Hall:
Yes. Chewed Up. Oh my God.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell me everything. Tell me everything.
Carla Hall:
All right. So Clinton Kelly, Michael Simon, and I we've been on this text thread for about 15 years. We really love each other. We had “The Chew,” we've been threatening to do something again and we've done lives. I think in 2018 we did a live all of us and people are like, "Oh my God, I love ‘The Chew.’" So an opportunity came about to do a podcast. It's a video podcast. We release three episodes a week and it's 30 minutes. We make simple dishes. We chat. We're unhinged. There's nobody to tell us that we can't do something. It is not on network, and it is three friends in the kitchen inviting other people in occasionally. And when I tell you it is so much fun. You can see it on YouTube. And then we have “Chewed Up Show,” the website, which you can see the episodes on. I feel so energized. You know when you do something ... So we shoot six episodes a day. So we meet two days a month. 12 episodes. At the end of that 12th episode, I'm still energized, and you know you're in the right space. You know it is something that is feeding you, energizing you. It feels good. I love them so much.
I said yes. We were like, "Okay, we'll do it. We'll see how long this works. We'll give it six months." And we are two months in, I think after next week we will have shot our 54th episode, and I love it. I somehow didn't know I was missing it until I did it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Now tell us about your books. The one I wanted to talk about is “Carla Hall, Soul Food: Every Day in Celebration” because that's the one I just like. I've had it, I love it, I dig into it. And also about the picture books, because I love that you're branching out into some picture books. Tell us about those.
Carla Hall:
So I'll start with “Soul Food: Every Day in Celebration.” This was a book that was near and dear to my heart. I thought I wanted to do a baking book and then I said, "You know what? I think I want to do a soul food book." My agent said, "Well, why would you limit yourself to soul food? You have so many different followers and people who love your work." And as a tourist and I pushed back a little bit because I'm like, "Well, I buy Italian books. I buy Greek books. I buy different cuisines, Indian, Korean, soul food is a cuisine." So then I doubled down on, I'm like, "No, this is the book that I want to do." And as I did that book, I was rediscovering soul food by traveling through the South.
Because when you are in something and you're living it, you're not actually intellectualizing it, you're just in it. But to go back and travel and talk to people about these dishes and talk about the origins of them or how their families experience them, a lot of the photographs were in the moment. I would just go to the market, get food, come back, we would shoot it and then I would write a recipe, which is not how it happens. But I love that book. And I wanted to make the distinction. Every culture has it. Every culture has these everyday dishes, like the dishes that you have during the week, and then those celebration dishes, which seem to be fatty or sweeter, saltier, creamier, right? But somehow, soul food got stuck in that space of celebration dishes.
Looking at this in terms of health, in terms of a chef, I'm like, I have to break this apart just for our health of the culture to have people to look at this food ... Like if my great-grandmother, five generations removed, came here today, how would she be eating? Those are our everyday dishes. I love that book. I love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And then also “Carla and the Christmas Cornbread” and “Carla and Tin Can Cake Party.”
Carla Hall:
Oh my God. Okay. So my picture books. So one of my many lives, I'm a seven on Enneagram. And those of you who are listening, if you know about Enneagram, you understand I am the adventurer. So I love all these different things. I wanted to be a cartoonist as a child. When I was doing 4H, I always drew. I was an artist, I would draw, and so I always wanted to do a picture book. I thought I was going to do a biography of my life and Kristen Hartke was helping me write the proposal and the editor or the publishing house rejected it, but then we pulled out the story. I always wanted a children's book. And this was “Carla and the Christmas Cornbread” was one of the stories that Kristen helped write based on my-
Jessie Sheehan:
Memoir. Or the proposal. Yeah. Love.
Carla Hall:
And so that's how that came about. And then this next book, “Carla and the Tin Can Cake Party,” I wrote during the pandemic, and I was so excited and the artist, Cherise Harris, lives in Barbados. The funny thing is we have the same initials, me and the illustrator, C-H, and both of our mothers' names are Audrey. Is that crazy?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Carla Hall:
I thought they had misspelled my mother's name and I'm like, wait, that's not my mother's last name, but it's her mom. Yeah. So I think that synergy. I believe everything happens for a reason. And these are the signs that we talk about that I see throughout my life and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Where you know you're on the right path.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you know like you can see the steps that you need to take. Tell us about “Next Level Baker.” Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.
Carla Hall:
Okay. First of all, let me just talk about when I first met Gordon Ramsey.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, please.
Carla Hall:
Fox had reached out. I had to do a chemistry test. I hadn't done a chemistry test since 2010 when I was doing “The Chew.” I'm like, "You know me. Why am I doing a chemistry test?"
Jessie Sheehan:
I assume that means to make sure you guys have chemistry, but tell listeners what that is.
Carla Hall:
Well, that's exactly it. So you meet the people and you make sure you have chemistry on screen and blah, blah, blah. So I walk-
Jessie Sheehan:
And do they actually call it like a chemistry test?
Carla Hall:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, wow.
Carla Hall:
They call it a chemistry test.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then you pretend like, "Oh yeah, he wants to meet you." No, they're like, "We got to see."
Carla Hall:
But look, I had planned this whole day with him. I go in and I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm finally meeting you. Let me hug your neck." So I give him a hug. He thought that was the funniest thing because he's a Brit. He's like, "What?
Jessie Sheehan:
We don't hug.
Carla Hall:
Hug my neck." And I'm holding him on his biceps like a grandma. I pushed him back. I'm looking at him. I'm like, "How tall are you?" And he's like, "I'm 6'2"." I said, "That's what Wikipedia said." So I immediately felt this kindred connection to Gordon. He was so fun, so awesome. It just went on like that and it continued. And so then I got the job and here we are doing this show. And when I tell you, it is so fun working with Candace. I'd worked with Candace before. We're all tall, by the way. So I'm six feet tall. Gordon is 6'2". Candace is like 5'10, 5'11". So with heels, we're all really tall. So it's probably the tallest cast, other than “Wizards of Baking.” That's a tall cast as well.
This show, the three kitchens, the three levels, I couldn't get ready for my reaction to seeing it in person. It is ginormous. I don't know why I thought it was trick television, but seeing it in person. And then they're filming us when they hit the switch to light it up. And my real reaction is like, oh my God. It was so incredible. I want to lean in and say, "Thank you, Fox budget." There was like a reindeer, there are carolers, there's ice skating. It is a winter wonderland. There are three episodes. It is a joyful holiday show. There are three kinds of bakers. So there's the home cooks, the professional cooks, and social media.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was going to ask you about that. What does it mean to be a social media baker?
Carla Hall:
People who are ... They don't cook in a kitchen. They're not considered home cooks, but they put content out there that looks very beautiful and this is where they do what they do. And it's very interesting because when I think about these different pots of bakers, I think about social media cooks who are thinking about presentation. They want something very beautiful, but nobody's eating it. The great side is it's beautiful. The shadow side is nobody's eating it. And then you have home cooks who make these delicious things, tried and true. That would be the positive thought. The shadow side is they don't really think about presentation as much, right? But it's delicious. You want to go back in for another bite. And then you have these professional cooks who are very structured and they're used to pretty good kitchens and they're used to ... Maybe they make a lot of one or two things, but they may not know a lot of different things. And so the flexibility may not be as much. That would be the shadow side of having their technique. But let me tell you, every group surprised us.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Carla Hall:
They are so talented.
Jessie Sheehan:
And they're competing against each other.
Carla Hall:
They're competing against each other. There's no drafting, so we don't have teams, so every person for themselves.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Tell us where we can watch it.
Carla Hall:
So you can watch it on Fox. The next day, you can see it on Hulu.
Jessie Sheehan:
Fantastic. I can't wait.
Carla Hall:
Yeah. Three episodes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Congrats. That's so fun.
Carla Hall:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right. One more thing, I just wanted you to tell us about, Carla. Tell us about the pies that we can find, some of your pies that we can find in grocery stores, et cetera.
Carla Hall:
Yeah. So I have these butter tarts that are in the fresh market.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Carla Hall:
Hopefully, here in a place where ... I think there are a lot of them in Florida. I have cherry, apple, and for this holiday season we have pear and cranberry crunch.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Carla Hall:
And one of the flavors that reminds me of my grandmother, I do a lot of almond. Almond extract reminds me of my grandmother. They have a little marzipan and an all-butter crust and so it's like a rustic tart. And they are delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. A rustic tarp, but sort of in like a pie dish or no?
Carla Hall:
No. It's a rustic as in-
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, freeform.
Carla Hall:
Free-form pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, love, love, love. Oh my God, those flavors sound amazing.
Carla Hall:
Yeah. They're really amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
And are they there just for the holidays?
Carla Hall:
No. They're there. They've been there for a little over a year.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Carla Hall:
And one of the things that I've been doing, I've been telling people, look, for the holidays, take something off your plate, get a pie, have a toppings bar, maybe do whipped cream, do some salted caramel, do an apple cider reduction.
Jessie Sheehan:
Snow sugar.
Carla Hall:
Snow sugar. Oh my gosh, totally snow sugar. You can add cinnamon to it. That would be delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
I didn't even think about flavoring snow sugar. Love.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love, love, love.
Carla Hall:
Oh my gosh, that would be amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love.
Carla Hall:
So I'm a pie girl, and I love just a fruity pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love the free form because it's easier and I love easy. And also I love anything where it's supposed to look rustic.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So you can be like, "Oh no, it's rustic. What are you talking about?"
Carla Hall:
Oh, totally.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's an artisanal tart. What do you mean?
Carla Hall:
I love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to talk about your gingerbread cake with snow sugar. Listeners highly recommend you check this out. I loved watching the video on Food Network and seeing you make this because you give so many good tips and we'll go through them as we're talking about the recipe. I also loved how much you use your hands because my hands are always in my cakes, my cookies, my everything. And I also love ... And we'll talk about it. That this is a reverse creaming recipe because I always love talking about that with peeps and also that it's slightly one-bowl-ish because there's no stand mixer. That's all the reasons I love it in case anyone's curious. Okay. So first things first, we're going to heat the oven to 375. And I noticed that's a slightly higher temp for cake. Reason for that?
Carla Hall:
So when you go and you want to give the cake a lift, especially if there's no leavening, you really want to go in and give the cake lift. Another way to explain this, when you're doing muffins, and if you want that dome, if you go in with a higher oven, it gives you the lift then you turn it down. That's it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Love it.
Carla Hall:
Let your heat be your friend.
Jessie Sheehan:
So if we're going to heat the oven at 375, then we're going to brush the bottoms and sides of two nine-by-three-inch loaf pans with oil. Two questions. Is there a type of oil you like and would you ever use spray?
Carla Hall:
I like a neutral oil. But let's say gingerbread is good with walnuts. If you have a walnut that's not rancid that you want to use, that's going to give that cake some personality, you can do that. But a neutral oil.
Jessie Sheehan:
Neutral oil.
Carla Hall:
You can use spray. I would say do not use the spray if you have a nonstick pan because it gunks up and it's going to gunk up on your cake pan and then you have to throw it out.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So we're going to then line the bottom and the long sides of the pans with parchment, leaving a two-inch overhang on two sides because we'll be able to lift the cake out with that. And then we'll brush the paper with the oil as well. And I wondered, if a cake was calling for butter, would you do this exact same thing, but with melted butter or softened butter?
Carla Hall:
Yeah. I would do softened butter. One of the things that my grandmother used to do with the wax paper, she would put the butter on the wax paper and she would use that to rub around, grab a paper towel.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or people will use ... I never am smart enough to do this, but people will use the wrapper that the butter is in.
Carla Hall:
That's what I'm talking about, the wrapper.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant.
Carla Hall:
Yep.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then in a medium bowl. And do you have a preference, ceramic, glass, metal?
Carla Hall:
I tend to use metal. And the reason I use metal is because I use a scale. I am measuring my dry ingredients. It's just a lighter bowl to use on my scale.
Jessie Sheehan:
So smart. Yep. In a medium bowl, metal bowl. We're going to with some whole eggs, some egg yolks. And you talk about this in the video, you're putting the egg yolks in there for a little extra fat. I love that you use your hands to separate your eggs.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because that is what I do. And people think that's insane and it's not.
Carla Hall:
No. No.
Jessie Sheehan:
As long as your hands are clean, they're the perfect tool.
Carla Hall:
That's right. Because the white is going to just drip from your fingers. And also that back and forth with the shell, if you puncture the yolk with the shell.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's all over.
Carla Hall:
It's all over.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's all over. Yeah. Then we're going to add some molasses and some vanilla. I wondered if you had a favorite brand of vanilla.
Carla Hall:
I use-
Jessie Sheehan:
Nielsen-Massey?
Carla Hall:
Nielsen-Massey. And also, I love the vanilla bean paste.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
Teaspoon for teaspoon. I like to see the little dots.
Jessie Sheehan:
The specs are so pretty.
Carla Hall:
Those specs. You don't see it necessarily in-
Jessie Sheehan:
This cake.
Carla Hall:
This cake, but just get it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. We'll whisk this together until smooth. Then in a small bowl, we're going to mix some buttermilk. And I loved this tip. With a third of a cup of hot water. So in the video, you say that the water is for moisture, but please unpack because I would think we're already getting moisture and extra fat from buttermilk, oil. Is this hot water like a trick for baked goods?
Carla Hall:
The hot water is a trick, the same way that you might use coffee in a chocolate cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Chocolate cake. Yep.
Carla Hall:
The same way that you might use hot water in other cakes. The thing that makes them moist, one, it is the neutral oil because any oil that is soft at room temperature is going to be soft in a cake. For a more structured cake, you would use butter.
Jessie Sheehan:
I had one bakery job in my life many years ago. And at that job, we would put ice water in the vanilla cake. And I think that was a butter-based cake, but it was unbelievably moist. And I feel like that was probably some old-fashioned ... They didn't want to spend money on the milk or the dairy or whatever, and it was delicious.
Carla Hall:
Wow.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Delicious.
Carla Hall:
My mind is going now, like scientifically, what is that?
Jessie Sheehan:
What is happening? I know.
Carla Hall:
By the way, Shirley Corriher, “BakeWise.”
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible.
Carla Hall:
“CookWise.” Is my just all-time baking guru.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's a great one for listeners to remember. “BakeWise” by Shirley Corriher. Incredible.
Carla Hall:
Incredible.
Jessie Sheehan:
Was she Southern?
Carla Hall:
She was Southern from Georgia. Yeah. Yeah. I remember her angel biscuit that Shirley had in her book and you have one in your book. I love that. So now we're going to mix up our dry ingredients and I love that this cake calls for reverse creaming. I wondered, did you learn that from Rose Levy Beranbaum or did you just know.
Shirley.
Jessie Sheehan:
You did.
Carla Hall:
I learned it from Shirley.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God, Shirley.
Carla Hall:
So I didn't know about this. I'm a recovered caterer. I would just study Shirley's book.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's incredible.
Carla Hall:
Study it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Did you have both or just “BakingWise?”
Carla Hall:
I have “BakeWise,” “CookWise,” and there's another one. There's a third one. And I was in the weeds one year and I remember doing this cake. I remember doing my crust and it all came from Shirley. And I also remember making recipes based on her formula. So Shirley, I wrote to her and eventually she wrote to me back. I was like, oh my God.
Jessie Sheehan:
Frame it.
Carla Hall:
And I met her like years later, but the reverse creaming method, just having your flour and sugar and everything and then adding your butter in or your fat, it changes-
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, the crumb is incredible.
Carla Hall:
The crumb is so tender and so beautiful. And the reason that is you're not working the flour and overworking the gluten. So if you're doing a gluten-free cake, you don't have to worry about it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
Yeah. Because the gluten's not going to ...
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Love. Love. Oh, I love it with Shirley. I don't even think Shirley's ever come up on this podcast, which is insane because that is an incredible book.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
“BakeWise.” Incredible. I'm going to pull it down tonight. Yeah. When I was learning in the beginning, oh my God, every formula, I was like, okay, Shirley says. I've got to develop a recipe just like Shirley. We're going to whisk together cake flour and you say you like that for a lighter cake. You also, which I love, you add some tips for how to make it yourself. You remove about two tablespoons of all-purpose from a cup and replace it with corn starch. You got your own cake flour. Love that. So we add our baking powder, then we add some cinnamon, ground ginger, kosher salt, nutmeg, cloves. Is there a brand of spice that you love?
Carla Hall:
I'm visualizing the company.
Jessie Sheehan:
Burlap & Barrel.
Carla Hall:
Yes. Burlap & Barrel. First of all, any chef who has a cookbook coming out, they send you stuff. I'm just telling you, they send you a whole little thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so true, Carla.
Carla Hall:
But the way that they source their spices, they are so fresh and so amazing that I feel like you think, oh, I don't need as much because they're so fresh. You realize how you've been using subpar spices.
Jessie Sheehan:
100%. And that ... What are they call ... Royal something ... Their cinnamon.
Carla Hall:
Oh, the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Just my head's about to explode. Yeah. It's so good.
Carla Hall:
So good.
Jessie Sheehan:
So good. So we're going to add some Burlap & Barrel spices and then we're going to add the dark brown sugar. And I love this. You also tell us in the video how you can just add a little molasses to granulated sugar. You love the dark brown. That's just more flavor here. You're going to mix these ingredients together. So it's all of the dry ingredients for this reverse creaming and you do it with your hands.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because that's the best way to get rid of all those clumps in the sugar.
Carla Hall:
All of those clumps and lumps because a lot of times we don't think about that. And just using your hands anytime that you're also going ... Let's say if you're doing some kind of citrus or something and into the sugar, it's better to use your hands because the oils from the citrus are going to permeate through the sugar itself.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love, love, love your hands in there. Love it. And then I've also never even seen this. We're going to add butter and oil. I imagine butter for flavor, oil because oil is liquid at room temp. So the cake is going to be so moist at room temp. And I loved that you did this with your hands because I think I've always thought you could only do reverse creaming in a stand mixer. But I loved that you just got in there with your hands and just almost like pie dough in a weird way, but not really, but you just crumbled that butter mushed. Technical term, mushed. That butter right into the dry ingredients.
Carla Hall:
100%.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
And I think because it's not that much. First of all, when I'm doing recipes, I think about, do you have to wash this dish?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Carla Hall:
A lot of times if you have to pull out a mixer, it's like, okay, I don't want to make the cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
I agree. I could not agree with you more. Yes.
Carla Hall:
When I do a cookbook, I think about how many dishes you're going to use because your time is not just in baking, your time is in shopping, your time is in cleaning up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. Totally agree with you. And we're going to do this with our hands until the mixture resembles coarse meal. Then we're going to slowly drizzle in our egg molasses mixture, stir until incorporated. Are we using like a flexible spatula at this point?
Carla Hall:
I like a stiff spatula.
Jessie Sheehan:
Stiff. Okay, perfect. We're going to stir with a stiff spatula. Then we'll whisk in our buttermilk mixture until smooth. Do you have a favorite whisk?
Carla Hall:
I happen to like a big balloon whisk. I like a balloon whisk or a long, narrow, stiff one, but it's thin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we'll whisk in our buttermilk mixture until smooth, scraping around the sides and the bottom of the bowl as needed. We'll pour our batter into the prepared loaf pans. We're going to sprinkle some diced candied ginger on each cake. We'll bake until the cakes feel bouncy. Tester inserted in the centers comes out clean. Two questions. Type of tester? Do you like a long skewer or you like a toothpick?
Carla Hall:
I like a long skewer, and I will go in and I'll just put it on my chin or right below my lip to see if it's cold and I can look at it too. But let me tell you recently, and I learned this from Dorie Greenspan, thermometer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Brilliant.
Carla Hall:
It's like 180 degrees.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And then you're done with all of that.
Carla Hall:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, maybe I should do that because my thing is I always want a moist crumb because I always worry that I'm over ... I hate dry cake.
Carla Hall:
Me too.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I'm always worried I'm over blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like anxiety. And often it's good and I'm like, okay, but sometimes it's that crumb. It's a little too wet. So then you put it back in, then it's too long. Thermometer.
Carla Hall:
Thermometer. When it was told to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Especially with breads. To all the listeners-
Jessie Sheehan:
Bread, I would do that. Cinnamon rolls, I would do that, but that's so smart about cake.
Carla Hall:
But in the loaf pan, a pound cake. Anything that looks like it may be done on top and it's deep. You don't need to do this with an eight-inch round. You just don't need to do it. But anything that is deep that looks like it may be done on top and you have something that's going to be like three to four inches, you really should use a thermometer, I think.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm thinking bunt pan too.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
That is so hard to know. I love that. I love that. And let's give Dorie the credit because we love her.
Carla Hall:
Yes. And look up the temp because don't trust me.
Jessie Sheehan:
And that's about 25 to 30 minutes until it's ready. And then while the cakes are cooling or while the cake bakes, we can make our snow sugar. Oh my gosh, you have blown my mind with snow sugar. I had no fricking idea what snow sugar was and now I literally want to put it on everything. Tell us what snow sugar is.
Carla Hall:
it's just this very fine sugar that you want to dust something with. The little spice grinder is your friend.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Brilliant. We're going to take a medium bowl. We're going to whisk together granulated sugar, corn starch, then we're ... This is just mind-blowing. We're going to slowly drizzle in, melted and cooled, unrefined coconut oil. And then the question is, it probably has ... The thing that's great about coconut oil is that it is solid at room temp.
Carla Hall:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
So is that why we want coconut oil here because we want something that-
Carla Hall:
It's going to hold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Carla Hall:
It's going to hold on. You think about what a gingerbread ... So basically I'm making this cake, but I'm thinking about a gingerbread house, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Carla Hall:
So when you're pouring this on, it's going to stick and-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Love. Love. Love.
Carla Hall:
But it's not royal icing.
Jessie Sheehan:
No, no, no, no, no.
Carla Hall:
That part.
Jessie Sheehan:
No, no, no. So we're going to slowly drizzle in some melted and cooled, unrefined coconut oil. Then while we're whisking, we'll put in our coconut oil. The mixture may clump a little. That's okay. It's basically going to look like coarse breadcrumbs. All of this is so fascinating. You stick it in the refrigerator for like five to 10 minutes so the coconut oil solidifies. And then when you take it out, you'll put it in a sieve. Wait, listeners, now we take our cakes. We cool them in the pans for 10 minutes. We unmold the cakes. We peel off the parchment paper and let the cake cool completely. But when we're ready to serve, we put them on a serving platter. We break up any clumps in our snow sugar, place it in a fine sieve, and then literally sift it on top of the cakes. And I see in the video you're using your hand to help push it through. And it creates this ... It's not granulated. It's not 10x. It's some magic snow that doesn't get absorbed by the cake, right?
Carla Hall:
And it sticks. And so the other thing here is the sieve. I like a really fine sieve, and then you have a medium sieve. There are cases for different-sized holes of the sieves. So I would suggest having a variety of sieves.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love that. I was thinking you could do this on cookies.
Carla Hall:
Oh yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was like, put it on.
Carla Hall:
Linzer cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God.
Carla Hall:
What?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. I just thought this was brilliant. And I'm like, was I like raised under a rock? I've never even heard of it. Also, final great Carla tip. So we've sifted. Our cakes look all beautiful and snowy. And then when we cut them, you say, no cutting. We're sawing.
Carla Hall:
Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're getting a serrated knife and we're sawing. Tell us about sawing.
Carla Hall:
Okay. First of all, “Mommy Dearest,” you know the hanger thing, wire hangers. Watching all these baking shows, my wire hanger moments are these people who make these-
Jessie Sheehan:
Chef's knife.
Carla Hall:
Oh my God. Will make these beautiful cakes and then they don't know how to cut them. And I have the jagged edge. So a lot of times people will stick in a knife and just drag down and you look at this jagged edge of a cake. But if you saw, you get a beautiful edge and then you wipe. So I just have to remind people, please saw, hot water, wipe the knife, go in, saw, bring it out, wipe it off, hot water.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. It's exhausting, but you have to do it.
Carla Hall:
You have to do it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. I love it. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Carla. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Carla Hall:
Oh my gosh. And I love cherry pie, by the way.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to King Arthur, California Prunes, and Diamond of California Nuts for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie and happy baking.