Cheryl Day Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today, I'm thrilled to welcome Cheryl Day back to She's My Cherry Pie. Cheryl was one of my very first guests when we launched the show a few years ago, and I'm so excited to have her back on. You probably know Cheryl as the celebrated self-taught baking powerhouse behind the now closed Back In The Day Bakery in Savannah, Georgia. She's also a two-time James Beard Award nominee and a New York Times bestselling cookbook author of six books, including her most recent, “Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking,” which features more than 200 recipes from Cheryl's famous biscuits, to gathering cakes, scones, cobblers, jams, and preserves. Cheryl and her husband Griff opened Back In The Day in 2002, and it quickly became a fixture in Savannah, thanks to Cheryl's pies, cupcakes, and more delicious treats. In 2024, Cheryl and Griff shocked the culinary world when they announced they were closing the bakery after 22 years. Cheryl joins me today to talk about baking with both her grandmother and mother as a little girl, about the fluffy aprons she wore, and about the many times you need to turn a wooden spoon when making a cake batter without a mixer, about closing the bakery, and what she's been up to since. She even gives me the scoop on her upcoming cookbook, “Cake Lady.” Then we chat about her sweet potato pie from “Treasury,” which Cheryl says is always on the Thanksgiving dessert table, but is also served all year long. We talk about her technique for making the flakiest pie crust; it involves smearing butter into flour with the heel of your hand, and how she makes a meringue topping without a candy thermometer. Chatting with Cheryl is always such a treat, so stay tuned. You can find today's recipe at Cherrybombe.substack.com.
Today's episode of She's My Cherry Pie is presented by our friends at California Prunes, the best prunes out there. We love them for two big reasons. They are a smart, wholesome snack, and they're a fabulous secret weapon in baking. You already know prunes are good for your gut, and maybe you've heard about their bone health benefits, but here's the real scoop. Prunes are downright delicious, whether you're baking something sweet or cooking up something savory. Don't just take my word for it, here's what some of today's top chefs and bakers are saying. Pastry chef and cookbook author, Rose Wilde of Red Bread in L.A. says, "Prunes are so juicy and sweet. They have flavors of caramel and molasses, and I really love using them as an ingredient in the seasons when fresh produce isn't as abundant. They're a total dreamboat." Chef Ana Castro of Acamaya in New Orleans says, "Prunes have a sultriness to them. They're rich like velvet." Chef Kat Turner of Highly Likely in L.A. says, "I love prunes. They're incredibly versatile, hitting that perfect balance between sweet and savory. I find them incredibly sensual." One of my favorite baking hacks is using prune puree. It adds amazing flavor while helping cut back on sugar, eggs, and fat in your recipe. Just blend prunes and water, and you're good to go. For more inspiration and plenty of recipes, visit californiaprunes.org. Happy baking, and happy snacking.
Peeps, did you hear the news? Jubilee New York 2026 is happening on Saturday, April 25th at the Glasshouse in Manhattan, and early bird tickets are on sale now. Jubilee is Cherry Bombe's annual conference celebrating women and creatives in the world of food and drink. It'll be a beautiful day of connection and community, plus delicious bites and sips. You'll meet other thoughtful food folks and be inspired by the featured speakers, panelists, and more. I had such a great time at this past year's event, and I know next year's will somehow be bigger and better. Early bird tickets are on sale now through December 31st. If you're an official Bombesquad member or a paid Substack subscriber, be sure to use your discount code at checkout. You can find it in your inbox or on our Substack website. Head to cherrybombe.com for all the details. I hope to see you there.
Let's chat with today's guest. Cheryl, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie again, and to talk sweet potato pie with you, and so much more.
Cheryl Day:
Oh my gosh, so happy to be here with you.
Jessie Sheehan:
You grew up in L.A.
Cheryl Day:
I did.
Jessie Sheehan:
A self-professed valley girl, baking with your mom, but also you spent summers in Alabama baking with your grandmother. So, can you tell us about chocolate heaven cake, which I believe might've been the first thing you ever learned to bake with your grandmother?
Cheryl Day:
It is, and still probably, it's like my, you know how everyone, we all have a comfort recipe? I think chocolate heaven cake, there's so many stories that surround that cake that are just all about happiness and I love it. So yeah, that was the first cake. And the funny thing is, it is even better now I think, dare I say, than my grandmother's, because I get to use wonderful chocolate and I think they used not that great of a chocolate. But the cake was still so good, but I absolutely love it. I think everybody should have a great chocolate cake in their arsenal, this one is mine.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, I wanted you to tell us, I love these images that I read about, but I would love you to tell us about putting on fluffy aprons with your grandmother when you were baking. I love Cheryl and grandma and a fluffy apron, which continued on in your own bakery. And then also, I loved reading this, about learning to count the terms of the wooden spoon when you were making a cake with grandma. Tell me about those two things.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, I mean, I'm dating myself of course, but there's no secret about that. But yeah, I remember when my mom got her first electric mixer. I think my grandmother may have had a hand beater at some point, but yeah, you used to, I think even when cake mixes came out, I think they would even tell you how many times to turn. We have a recipe in one of our cookbooks, and we literally said, it was a brownie recipe, and we said how many turns it was. It was like, I don't know, 100 or something, and I can't believe that that even passed editing, because I'm like, who is going to do this? But it's fun to talk about with people. They're like, "I did the 100 turns."
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, right, right.
Cheryl Day:
But so yeah, that was the thing, you had to do with a big spoon, like a big old wooden spoon, and it's those memories for me that I think is what I am all about. You'll never find me doing cakes that... I mean, I do put my modern twist on things, but there's so much nostalgia for me because to me, baking is about telling stories. And in this day and age, to me, it's just even more important than ever to be able to pass on this craft, and that's why I still do things the old-fashioned way, so.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Do you remember how old you might've been when you first learned to make that cake and first put on a fluffy apron?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I was about eight, Jessie, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aw. I'm picturing this closet with all the fluffy aprons in it, and you would grab one, and-
Cheryl Day:
And it's so funny that you mention that, because I literally, in our kitchen, I have got in our little back closet, a closet of fluffy aprons, and I really hadn't thought about that-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it was like your grandmother.
Cheryl Day:
... until you just said that, but yeah, and I can't stop with the fluffy aprons.
Jessie Sheehan:
Were there cookbooks around? Was your mom reading church books? Were you interested in cookbooks when you were little? Not only helping your grandma and your mom, but also Cheryl herself starting to make things and use cookbooks?
Cheryl Day:
Okay, so you have no idea what a great question that is, and how I really, truly, when I started working on the proposal for my next book, I realized, no, we didn't have cookbooks. And I don't want to give too much away, but no, we had other ways of interacting in the kitchen. We would read great stories by other black authors of the time. I do remember seeing church cookbooks, my grandmother was very active in her church, but no, I didn't grow up with cookbooks. Now, I did watch cooking shows on television when I'd come home from school, so.
Jessie Sheehan:
What'd you watch?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, Julia Child, of course. There was a show called “Galloping Gourmet.”
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Cheryl Day:
I mean, just really between that and “Dark Shadows,” that was my thing.
Jessie Sheehan:
That was Cheryl. We'll be right back.
Today's episode is presented by Diamond of California Nuts, the century-old nut brand I couldn't bake without. If I open my freezer for you right now, because that's where I keep my nuts, you'd see my stock of Diamond walnuts, almonds, and pecans ready for whatever I'm baking next. I love that they work with family-run farms that guarantee quality and commitment to the craft. Diamond also created the first-ever ready-to-use nut pie crust, which just so happens to be gluten-free. If you haven't checked these out, you must. They're the best holiday baking shortcut. The first ingredient is nuts, not flour or sugar, and you can really taste the difference. There's a pecan crust that would be amazing with your Thanksgiving pumpkin or apple pies, and a chocolate crust that I just want with everything. When you're at the grocery store, look for the nuts in the white bag with the red Diamond logo in the baking aisle. That's your sign you're getting premium quality nuts that bakers have trusted for generations. Visit Diamondnuts.com to find a store nearest you and to explore their fan favorite recipes, like pecan sticky buns. Yum. Happy baking.
Cake lovers, you are going to love the next issue of Cherry Bombe magazine. I'm so excited to announce that the upcoming holiday issue of Cherry Bombe is all about cake. It's going to be packed with sweet stories, beautiful recipes, and heartfelt essays dedicated to our favorite dessert. Stay tuned for the cover reveal. I know it's going to be extra delicious. The issue will be out in early December, so head to cherrybombe.com to subscribe now and ensure it lands in your mailbox just in time for the holidays. Now, back to our guest.
You've said that your love affair with baking in the American South began during these years of baking in L.A. with your mom and your grandmother in Alabama over the summer. I love this, Cheryl, but you didn't know that Southern baking was actually in your DNA until you found your mom's journal when she passed, and that you basically met your great-great-grandmother inside that journal, which is so meaningful. We talked about Hannah Queen Grubbs the last time we chatted, but I want to talk about her again because she deserves to be chatted about every time you and I meet. And I also think, is it true that Hannah was known for her sweet potato pie?
Cheryl Day:
That was definitely one of the things that she was known for, but Hannah was just like a force. And she was a little bitty thing, apparently tiny, not even five feet tall, but she was a force. She lived a very long time, till over 100 years old. I love talking about Hannah Queen Grubbs, and I'm still a little salty, I may have said this before, that I was not named Queen because there are so many Queens in my family. And one of my dear friends just had, who has worked on all of my cookbooks, Haley, she just had a baby. Well, she's, gosh, she's almost two, and she is Queen, and that is just so special. Well, she's Etta Queen, it's just so special that that is being passed on in some ways since Griff and I don't have children.
So yeah, I learned about just how resilient she was. I could talk to you for a whole session, truly, about her because I have discovered things even after, maybe they'll make an appearance in the next book. But I discovered things after that I didn't know about her, because Haley was doing research, wanting to know, try to find pictures of her or something, we thought we could find some records. And I won't get into this too much, but we did find an article that a journalist wrote about her family being slave owners, and it was something that she was coming to terms with and she was embarrassed by, but she was talking about her family history via slavery, and she just couldn't believe that that was something that would be a part of her family.
Long story short, Hannah Queen Grubbs, she wasn't known as Queen. I think she may have given herself that name, to be honest. But she came up in that article, Jessie, and I ended up meeting with this woman via writing letters, and she sent me all of the records and we found out that she was on this plantation. It was just such a deep story for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Cheryl Day:
But the main thing was is that this journalist was wanting to, part of the things that she mentioned in the article was how she was so concerned about what happened to Hannah, and there was another person there, George. I just wanted her to know what happened to her and that I was what happened to her, and it was really cool to have that conversation.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I need to share a quick Cheryl Day fun fact, which is that you were a soul-trained dancer as a teenager.
Cheryl Day:
Oh my goodness. The interview would not be complete without bringing that up.
Jessie Sheehan:
And the valley girl thing, which I mentioned in the beginning, and you've always loved music and dancing, and I loved learning this, that you bonded with Griff, your husband and fellow baker, business owner, when you guys had the bakery together, about music. I thought that was such a cool way that you guys connected. And I also thought it was interesting, neither you nor Griff started your career as professional bakers, it happened when you guys decided to open the bakery. And I loved learning that both of you were introduced to baking via your mothers and your grandmothers.
Cheryl Day:
Right, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But he's not from the South, right?
Cheryl Day:
No, Griff's from Minneapolis.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, that's so cool. So, he started bringing-
Cheryl Day:
So a lot of cardamom and Norwegian baking, and we learned how to fuse them into the recipes at the bakery.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. So you closed Back In The Day, is it almost two years ago? No, I guess almost a year ago now.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, it'll be two years in February.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Tell us about that experience. Obviously, you guys were ready. And what it feels like to not wake up at 3:30 or have Griff wake you up with coffee milk every morning.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, it feels so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I'm so glad.
Cheryl Day:
I have so much... I think bakers are the sweetest and the hardest-working folks there are out there. I just love, whenever I visit anywhere, that's my first stop is to find all the local bakeries, because I know they're in there working hard. I do not miss waking up early. I don't know how I did it for all of those years, I honestly don't. Yeah, I am really looking forward to making pies this year, just like maybe five.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, instead of 500.
Cheryl Day:
Exactly. And it's really good. Griff and I have been getting used to, I mean, it's definitely different. When you've done it for so long, it was an adjustment at first. Discovering and finding how we could recreate ourselves again, because we had done it so many times during our life, and then during COVID, I felt like I reinvented myself so many times. So yeah, we're now doing it again and it feels really good, we're enjoying it. We're enjoying traveling, getting to explore even the city that we call home in Savannah. We love it. We absolutely love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Before we jump into the recipe, please tell us about your new cake cookbook.
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I'm so excited. That is, it's coming pretty quickly it looks like. “Cake Lady” is about my culture and my experience of all the cake ladies that I've met over the years, some that I haven't met, because in black culture, being a cake lady is something different. And so I will leave it a little light there, but I'm going to be telling people what that really means, and it's taking you through a history lesson from freedom from emancipation to the here and now. And so it's going to be a little bit of a history lesson, but it's going to tell the heart and soul of my community and I could not be more excited, because there are cake ladies in many communities. If you ask someone in the black community, "Is there a cake lady in your community?" It's a whole different thing. And so, that's what I'm going to talk about in this next book, and I'm super excited.
Jessie Sheehan:
When does it publish?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I have no idea, but-
Jessie Sheehan:
Sometime.
Cheryl Day:
... I think pretty quickly. I mean, my manuscript is due next October.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, amazing, amazing.
Cheryl Day:
And photography is due in December, so a year, which is the shortest time I've ever had. Usually, I'm years in, writing through COVID and all of that. But I had never had a literary agent before. So yeah, shout out to Rica Allannic, and she really worked me through the process of writing a proposal that is truly my blueprint. And I have really helped my future self because in the past I was running a bakery, I don't even know how I did it all, especially the last cookbook, the “Treasury of Southern Baking,” it was just such a huge, it just kept growing and growing and growing. Finally, it became this big tome of southern baking through my eyes.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right, so now we're going to talk about sweet potato pie.
Cheryl Day:
Oh, yay.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which you describe as always being on the Thanksgiving dessert table, but you actually like to eat it all year long. This is not just Thanksgiving.
Cheryl Day:
Well, I don't know if you can get sweet potatoes everywhere. Probably you can now, but here in the South, you can always get sweet potatoes, and so yeah, we do eat them all year long.
Jessie Sheehan:
The recipe is from your brilliant “Cheryl Day's Treasury of Southern Baking,” which celebrates the craft from-scratch southern baking, showcases your passion for collecting local cookbooks and handwritten recipes. It also represents, as you say, your life's work, educating and reminding folks about the origins of southern baking.
So, we're going to start with the very flavorful and tender and flaky crust. In a medium bowl... I know it's different when you're in the bakery, but at home, are you using a metal bowl, are you using an old ceramic bowl? What's your bowl of choice when you're making up some pie dough?
Cheryl Day:
I do sometimes use a metal bowl, but when I started during the pandy, as we call it, I started doing videos from home and I found this awesome bowl from Food 52. It's like, I forget, it's not, I don't know what kind of plastic or whatever, there's probably another term, but it has this bottom, it's wide, like those metal bowls, and it's a big white bowl and it has this little suction on the bottom. And it is perfect, but it gives you that same feeling of that wide silver bowl that we would use at the bakery, but it just looks nice and it stores really nice. But before we move on, can I just say one thing about pie crust?
Jessie Sheehan:
Of course, honey.
Cheryl Day:
Okay. So, I just want to say that this is my pie crust of choice for this recipe because I do feel like it does pass on this legacy recipe as it would've been made, which is important to me. But I do think it's important with pies, because we know about pie fear with folks, to meet people where they are. This is not the only crust, and I don't want anything to stop you from making pie. There's so many other crusts that you could make a sweet potato pie with, molasses, ginger snap cookie crust, like a melted butter, like my shortcut crust, which I love, you could even do brown butter with that. So, don't let the fear of making pie crust keep you from making pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love that, Cheryl. Thank you for reminding people. In a medium bowl, we're going to whisk some all-purpose flour, and is there a brand of all-purpose that you like?
Cheryl Day:
King Arthur.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. We're going to whisk some King Arthur all-purpose flour, some granulated sugar, a little baking powder, and fine sea salt. So, I also put a little baking powder in my pie crust, but can you tell people why you do it?
Cheryl Day:
It's a cheat. I mean, it is just a cheat to get that lift, that little bounce in the oven. Well, I like it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.
Cheryl Day:
Do you use it too?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I do.
Cheryl Day:
It just gives that extra little poof in the oven, and I think we need all the-
Jessie Sheehan:
Poof, we can get.
Cheryl Day:
The help we can get.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's a little bit of insurance.
Cheryl Day:
Especially with Thanksgiving.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's a little bit of insurance for a lightness.
Cheryl Day:
It is, it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're also going to add the fine sea salt. Do you ever use kosher or no?
Cheryl Day:
I do actually use kosher now. I use Diamond Crystal. And for baking powder, I am a baking powder snob.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, tell me.
Cheryl Day:
I should have an endorsement, I do not, but I only use Rumford, period.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice, nice. Good to know, thank you. So we're going to whisk that together, then in a large measuring cup, like a two-cup measuring cup situation?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, or a small bowl, we're going to combine some ice water and some apple cider vinegar. And I love that you explain why we need the vinegar. The acidity in the vinegar weakens the gluten enough to make that rolling crust easier and prevent a little bit of shrinkage. I also have to say, I love adding apple cider vinegar because I also love the smell.
Cheryl Day:
I love the smell and I love the taste.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, it's so good, so good.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah. In fact, my dear friend Nicole Rucker, I love her pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love Nicole.
Cheryl Day:
Talk about easy pie crust recipes. Her cold butter method is amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible.
Cheryl Day:
But she puts a lot of vinegar in that recipe and it is oh so good-
Jessie Sheehan:
So good.
Cheryl Day:
... with that brown sugar, I absolutely love it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it and I love her, and I love you.
Cheryl Day:
And I will say, people will argue you down about the reason for the apple cider vinegar. I believe that's true.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love it.
Cheryl Day:
I mean, I believe that it definitely helps me during the process of rolling, it feels more relaxed. Maybe it's the smell that makes me feel more relaxed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. We're going to toss some cubes of some cold, high-fat European butter, which has more butter fat, less water so it's going to yield that shatteringly flaky crust. Can you tell us, is there a brand of European butter that you like?
Cheryl Day:
I like Plugra.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep.
Cheryl Day:
I also like Kerrygold.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we'll toss Plugra or Kerrygold cubes of it in the flour mixture. And then using a pastry blender, we're going to cut the butter into the flour. Brand of pastry blender that you like?
Cheryl Day:
I like William Sonoma, it's got a nice wooden handle. But I have to say, if you're just making one pie, you can just also don't go out and buy a pastry blender if you're not going to be making pies all the time. You can easily just pinch it with your fingers.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yep, and you should have various-sized pieces ranging from coarse sandy patches to flat shaggy pieces to pea-sized chunks, larger bits too. And I had a question about using your fingers, but as you said, just use your fingers.
Cheryl Day:
Pinch it. I take my palm of my hand and when I'm tossing the dough, the mixture, I'll kind of flatten some of the pieces. And I will say, like I said, there's many ways that you can make pie crust. For me, I enjoy the process of making pie crust, especially if I'm only doing a couple of pies at home. If I'm doing a lot of pies, I'm definitely going to use that cold butter method of the curls and the big mixer, it's great. But I think it's important to pass on the tradition of the craft of baking. For me, to be able to pass that on is important.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to drizzle in half of our ice water vinegar mixture into our dough, stirring lightly with a fork until the flour is evenly moistened and the dough starts to come together. If it seems too dry, we'll add more ice water vinegar mixture, but just one or two tablespoons at a time. The dough will look shaggy at this point, but if you were to grab a small piece of it and press it lightly with your hand, it should mostly hold together. Now we're going to dump the dough out onto an unfloured work surface. Don't even need to flour it because it's so buttery.
Cheryl Day:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to gather it together into a tight mound. And I love this. We're going to use the heel of our hand to smear the dough a little bit at a time, pushing it away from us as we work and working our way down the massive dough to create these flat layers of flour and butter. Is it called fraisage?
Cheryl Day:
It is, that's what I was going to say. That's one of my French words that I know.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love it, I love it. And that was a technique that was passed down to you or something that you learned along the way?
Cheryl Day:
Honestly, I think it's something that I've picked up along the way. I was trying to remember when someone's not there, what they did. I know my grandmother did not call it fraisage, that's for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
No, no, no, no, no, no.
Cheryl Day:
But just the process of how she did it and remembering her hands and how she did it and my mom, that was the method that they used.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Cheryl Day:
And the thing about the amount of liquid that is so tricky for people learning, I say the way you're going to get good at making a really great pie is to make a lot of pies. And I do feel like it is important to learn how to do it by hand. It's very tactile and I don't know, there's nothing like your hands in that pie dough or maybe biscuit dough for me too, but.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you get the feel of it and then when it's good. I think people always think they need to add more water.
Cheryl Day:
Always.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you get to the point where you can feel it and you know it feels dry now but once I do this, this, or that, whatever the technique is, it's actually, we're not going to need more water.
Cheryl Day:
And take notes of what you did this time and learn from it, because that's really the way that you're going to learn is by doing it over and over and over.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to gather the dough back together with the bench scraper. William Sonoma again? What kind of bench scraper do you have?
Cheryl Day:
Williams, actually, no, that's not true. Gosh, I don't know, I hope she's still around, but I have a huge bench scraper and it's called the Fat Girl. I swear, that's the company. It's wide, it is like twice the size of most.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's great.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, it's like on Etsy or something like that. It's Fat Girl bench scraper.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it.
Cheryl Day:
It's a wooden handle. It's great.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to gather the dough back together with our Fat Girl bench scraper. We're going to layer the clumps of dough on top of each other, repeating the process one or two more times. Dough should still have these big butter smears that are visible, but now it's sort of coming together in a cohesive mass. We'll cut the dough in half, we'll turn each into a flat disk, we'll wrap in plastic and chill for an hour or overnight.
I had a question, Cheryl, that I always wonder about. Could we freeze the disks immediately and then just pull them out when we're ready to make pie? Or do you want that period of time in the refrigerator when the gluten can relax and not be frozen before you freeze the pie dough?
Cheryl Day:
That's a good question. I definitely have gone straight to the freezer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too, but yeah.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, at the bakery you're making lots of it, and then you will take a tray and put it while you're making it into the refrigerator, but I really don't think that is necessary. Haven't you done it straight into the freezer?
Jessie Sheehan:
A million times. I think about this question the same thing with resting cookie dough. If you scoop it, do you have to put it in the fridge for 24 hours?
Cheryl Day:
No, no.
Jessie Sheehan:
Or can you put it in the freezer for four days?
Cheryl Day:
You can definitely put cookie dough in the freezer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right, right? I always wonder about that.
Cheryl Day:
I think sometimes though it is easier to, if it sets up a little bit though, when you're scooping it, that's why I think we would put it in the refrigerator, especially if you're doing bins of it and you've got a stack.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, yes, you don't want to-
Cheryl Day:
But if you're just making a tray of cookies at home, just put them on the tray, and I love those Stasher bags too. That's what I use now at home, the big ones. They're really gallon-sized, and I will put my cookie dough in there and stack and then I can just literally, Griff and I will have, I'll make us four cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. What's a Stasher bag?
Cheryl Day:
It's like those reusable Ziplocs.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, like the zippered plastic bags?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's reusable, it's that heavy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I got to get my hands on those.
Cheryl Day:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, because I have so many Ziploc bags in my freezer right now.
Cheryl Day:
Oh, no. These are like, what is it, silicone or something like that.
Jessie Sheehan:
What, do I live under a rock?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, yeah. I love those. I always used to have the small ones for when I was traveling to put my snacks in, but I discovered that they have big ones. It's like a gallon size.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I love. So we're going to remove a disc from the refrigerator, and if it's chilled overnight, we'll let it sit for 10 to 15 minutes. We'll lightly flour our work surface and roll the dough into a 12-inch round. What kind of rolling pin should we picture Cheryl using?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I'm probably the only one that uses an old lady grandma rolling pin.
Jessie Sheehan:
With the handles?
Cheryl Day:
With the ball, it's big. I have a smaller one too, that a friend found for me, and I have the French ones. I can't use... I think it's my hands get carpal tunneled out or something. I don't know, but I can't use those French ones and everybody I know loves those. We used to have to have all different kinds at the bakery because everybody has their preference.
Jessie Sheehan:
Their preference. Then we're going to transfer the 12-inch round to a nine-inch pie plate. Do you like glass or metal?
Cheryl Day:
I like metal now, but I do cook with glass sometimes at home. But the problem with glass is, you can't freeze it. Well, you can, but then you have to think about the temperature. You can't put it right into the oven right away. And then you've got your grandma's your favorite glass pie plate. And then I've never had it happen to me, but I've heard of people having them-
Jessie Sheehan:
Explode, yeah.
Cheryl Day:
... explode. The way we make pies now where we're blind baking them and they're cooked really well, you could always transfer that pie into your decorative. And then for space-saving also, I do love a stack of-
Jessie Sheehan:
Metal.
Cheryl Day:
... metal.
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, also I feel like metal might provide more of a guarantee of a crispy bottom.
Cheryl Day:
I think so too. I mean, I think originally a lot of people would say that you could see in the glass, but you don't need to see, you just need to know.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I don't know. I'm such a glass pie girl person because of this idea that I could check on the bottom, but I do think it takes longer, and-
Cheryl Day:
Well, glass in general does take long.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, and that the metal actually is some nice and extra insurance of avoiding that soggy bottom.
Cheryl Day:
And then you can just get a whole stack of them too.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. So we're going to use our fingertips to ease the dough into the dish. We'll leave about a one-and-a-half-inch overhang and either crimp the edges decoratively, leave it rustic. We'll cover with plastic and chill for at least 30 minutes because flaky pie crusts always bake best when chilled. Then we're going to par-bake it, so we'll preheat the oven to 375, position our rack in the lower third of the oven. I thought that was interesting.
Cheryl Day:
Or the metal.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, okay. I didn't know if that was a thing. Okay. Middle, lower, and then we're going to dock, which means to prick the shell with a fork. Do you also do the sides, Cheryl, or just the bottom?
Cheryl Day:
It depends on the kind of pie, but yeah, I typically, I will do the sides too, because this is a flaky pie crust.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now we're going to line with a heavy-duty piece of foil or paper before we put in our pie weights. What's your preference? I was introduced to foil recently, changed my world. I love foil so much.
Cheryl Day:
I grew up doing foil. I don't remember us having parchment.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, what I say about the foil is that you can mold it into the crust.
Cheryl Day:
It's true.
Jessie Sheehan:
Sometimes the parchment paper, you have to crumple it first and then kind of pat it down. I don't know.
Cheryl Day:
But here's a funny story. I was once on, I think it was our second cookbook on Martha Stewart's show. I discovered that she has issues with having foil touch your food.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Cheryl Day:
So she created this wrap and she sent me home with rolls and rolls of it, it was great, that was pretty genius. I doubt you can still get it now, but it was like a waxy kind of parchment and then the foil, but the foil didn't touch, it was layered. I mean, and that's like, that's perfection.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's, yeah. I have had people on Instagram or whatever get upset when they see me par-bake a pie with aluminum foil because they don't want it to touch their pie crust, so.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Martha, please send me a roll when you're listening to our episode. So then we're going to fill with dried beans, we could use rice, you can use pie weights. What's your preference, honey? Do you have, what do you use?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I do what I have. I mean, and what's cheap? Beans, rice.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've probably had the same rice that I reuse for pie weights for-
Cheryl Day:
Oh, same.
Jessie Sheehan:
I cannot tell you how long.
Cheryl Day:
And then you can get huge bags of it, it's great. But I will say, I did buy Erin's pie weights.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, I haven't bought those.
Cheryl Day:
And they're awesome. I mean for baking at home, I think I got two bags. They're great.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. We're talking about Erin Jeanne McDowell, peeps.
Cheryl Day:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I want to get my hands on some. So we're going to bake for about 15 or 20 minutes till the edges turn light golden brown. Then we'll remove the weights, the foil, the paper, and we'll cool completely before filling. When you're preparing for a situation-
Cheryl Day:
How long did I say par-bake?
Jessie Sheehan:
You said 15 to 20. Is that good?
Cheryl Day:
I mean, I think it's good, but it really, no oven is created equal, and sometimes it does take longer, because you definitely want it to be set.
Jessie Sheehan:
Do you ever put it back in? I know your directions say that if we're making a cream pie, for instance, so we were not making a pudding pie. If we were not baking at all, if we're fully baking this crust, we would take out the weights and the-
Cheryl Day:
Oh, yes, I would.
Jessie Sheehan:
And put it back into the oven. Would you-
Cheryl Day:
I would, and then some places may still puff if you docked it, but you can just dock them after. You're totally fine.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, so even for par-baking, you might slide it back into the oven just to get that bottom brown after.
Cheryl Day:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah, after we pull the foil and the beans.
Cheryl Day:
I do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to make our filling. The rack is in the middle of the oven, we're going to keep the oven at the same temp, 375. We're going to wrap some medium sweet potatoes in aluminum foil, place directly on the oven rack, bake for 40 to 50 minutes until soft. Once they're cool enough to handle, we'll peel and we'll measure. Then we'll reduce the oven to 325, because you like to bake a custard pie like this at a little bit of a lower oven?
Cheryl Day:
Yes, I do.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah, I think that's smart. So it doesn't crack, right?
Cheryl Day:
So it doesn't crack. That's a story that everyone's going to be talking about during Thanksgiving.
Jessie Sheehan:
Although what's great, is that this particular pie that we're going to talk about has this meringue topping, so it doesn't even matter if it cracks.
Cheryl Day:
It does, and I'll talk about why I did the meringue topping a little bit on this pie, because traditionally, people probably would just do whipped cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. I love meringue topping so much, so it made me so happy that that's what you did. Then in the stand mixer with the paddle attachment, or you can do this in a large bowl with a hand mixer, we'll beat the potatoes on medium until smooth, remove and discard any stringy bits from the potatoes.
Cheryl Day:
That's why I like to do it in the mixer, because you can pick them up on the paddle, but I will say, you can't over-mix on low-ish. You want to make sure that it's really creamy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yep. Would you ever do it in a food processor?
Cheryl Day:
You could, sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. We're going to add some heavy cream, some eggs, cane syrup. Is that like Lyle's Golden Syrup?
Cheryl Day:
You could use Lyle's. It's funny, I was thinking about this recipe last night and I looked up my absolute favorite brand, which is called Poirer, P-O-I-R-E-R, it's from New Orleans, well, from Louisiana. People have set timers on Saturday because their next batch is available.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Cheryl Day:
And it will be gone in a hot second.
Jessie Sheehan:
Wow.
Cheryl Day:
It's so good, because just that little bit of syrup is for, the cane syrup is a very specific kind of flavor, I think, that is necessary for the sweet potato pie. So definitely pick something that you like to taste of. Lyle's is good, though.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like Lyle's is tastier, definitely, than corn syrup, which I assume is something else someone could use?
Cheryl Day:
And you could use, you could use corn syrup, but yeah, it's not tasty.
Jessie Sheehan:
Not the same, it doesn't have a great taste. We're also going to add some unsalted melted butter. Same kind of brand that we would've used in the crusts, like some high-fat?
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, I mean, I will say, I've even used Kirkland is pretty good, Costco.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to mix still on medium speed until fully incorporated. Then we're going to add some light brown sugar. People always ask me this, maybe they do you, is dark okay? Does it matter?
Cheryl Day:
Dark is fine. Use what you have.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, dark or light brown sugar, some nutmeg, cinnamon, ginger. Is there a brand of spices that you like?
Cheryl Day:
Oh, I love a lot of brands of spices.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, anything that's ethically sourced.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to add some fine sea salt and some vanilla. What about a brand of vanilla that you like?
Cheryl Day:
Well, I'm making my own now because I got a huge mound of vanilla beans when we were in France. But I like Heilala. Is that how you pronounce it?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, yeah, me too.
Cheryl Day:
I love, again, anything ethically sourced.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to mix until smooth. Then we'll pour the filling into the prepared pie crust, place on a parchment-lined baking sheet, bake for about 40 to 45 minutes until the filling is set or firm around the edges and then the center wobbles slightly if jiggled. We're going to talk about making the meringue, but I had a question about the assembly of this. Do we need the pie to cool completely before we put the meringue on or can the meringue be put on the pie when it's still warm?
Cheryl Day:
It can be put on, but I think it should be a little cool. It's fine either way, but you don't want it hot out of the oven because it's like an Italian meringue.
Jessie Sheehan:
Totally.
Cheryl Day:
It's not like the type... like when I make my lemon meringue pie, it's a type that you have to put on right away and you put it back into the oven, but this is one that you make, so by the time your oven is cool enough where you're making the meringue, that's totally fine. But no, you don't want to put it on a hot crust. There are a lot of things that you do have to do on a hot crust. When I make lemon bars, you have to pour in your filling on a hot crust, otherwise it won't come out right. But this, no, I would let it cool.
Jessie Sheehan:
And why is that, Cheryl? Just because that piqued my interest. Is the idea that you need the hot crust to help you begin to set that lemon filling before you slide it back into the oven, or does it prevent sogginess? What's the issue there?
Cheryl Day:
The issue is that, yeah, it doesn't adhere and it seeps into it if it's separated. I don't know why. And I have tried it and I've had people try it. I mean, we used to have to stand by the oven to make sure that we were pouring it on. Have you ever made that kind of lemon bar?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes.
Cheryl Day:
Yeah, it's almost like a lemon curd-y kind of top.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, 100%. Yeah, so interesting.
Cheryl Day:
So, which I love.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. So it comes out of the oven, 40 to 45 minutes. We'll let it cool, and we'll make our meringue topping. We're going to put our egg whites, granulated sugar, cream of tartar, in the bowl of a stand mixer or a medium heatproof bowl, maybe a metal one. Set the bowl over a medium saucepan of simmering water, don't let the bottom of the bowl touch the water. And then whisking constantly until the sugar completely dissolves and the egg whites are warm to the touch, about three to four minutes.
Cheryl Day:
Yes, it's kind of making Swiss meringue frosting.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, and also a little bit like making seven-minute frosting, except that we're going to take it off and put it on the mixer. I also love, Cheryl, that there's no candy thermometer, that we're just judging by the way it feels, that warmth. And you also talk about, I love all the indicators. The mixture should appear pale and opaque, and if you rub a little bit between your fingers, it should feel smooth and not gritty.
Cheryl Day:
And when you feel it a little gritty, yeah, just put it back on because it'll happen pretty quickly. But I'm not going to say you can't overheat it, because I'm sure you can, but if you're watching it, it's not like seconds.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then we're going to attach that bowl to our stand mixer, fit it with the whisk attachment, or we can use a handheld mixer. We'll add the vanilla. I always think this is interesting, honey. I was just interviewing Dory and we were talking about this, because right now we're going to add the vanilla. Why do we wait to add the vanilla? I always have this idea that you shouldn't add vanilla when you're cooking something hot and that the vanilla should come in later because the flavor will be brighter and not diluted. But is that even true?
Cheryl Day:
I'm going with that, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, oh, good.
Cheryl Day:
I think that is definitely great way to describe it, because I'm thinking of other things that I would add it later and things do over time of course, force of habit. I mean, I'm trying to think of the things that I would add it right away. If I was making an American buttercream, I like it in the butter.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, because the butter and the fat carry flavor.
Cheryl Day:
Because you're wanting to do... But yeah, if you're going to make ganache or something like that, I add it at the end because I don't want to overheat it. That's our story, and we're sticking to it.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're sticking with it, that's exactly what Dorie, the recipe she and I were talking about. She had a ganache glaze on this cake and she had us add the vanilla after she took it off the heat, and that was my question.
Cheryl Day:
And if Dorie says it, it's got to be true.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. Hello? We're starting on low speed, we're going to whip the mixture, gradually increasing the speed to high until the meringue is glossy, form stiff peaks, five to seven minutes. And then final pie assembly. We're going to top the pie with the meringue, piling it sky high. Love, love, love. Making sure, remind us why we do this. We want to make sure the meringue touches the crust. How come?
Cheryl Day:
You want everybody to get the meringue, plus it seals it in, sealing it all in into this glorious... You don't want to slide off when you're slicing it or anything.
Jessie Sheehan:
And we're going to toast lightly with a kitchen torch. First of all, do you have a brand of kitchen torch you like? And second-
Cheryl Day:
Oh, yeah, from the plumber. I mean, from the plumbing section of the hardware store, that's what I eat.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's Cheryl's favorite brand.
Cheryl Day:
That's what we used at the bakery. I brought it home. There aren't kitchen torches... I've never used, have I ever used one of those little mini ones? They're okay, but I mean, if you've got the big guy.
Jessie Sheehan:
Why not use it?
Cheryl Day:
I feel like if you're going to make a meringue, you need to have something to get that torch-y, because it does lend to the texture.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh yeah.
Cheryl Day:
For sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
And it gives all the marshmallow vibes, which are so good with sweet potato.
Cheryl Day:
But you could do that, you could in a pinch, stick it in the oven. And like I said, lemon meringue pie, that's a different kind of meringue, a billowy meringue I think I call it. And that is the type is softer, it does cook in the oven and it does toast, but it's not as intense. And then also, I want to tell you why did meringue.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh yeah, please.
Cheryl Day:
Because sometimes people will do just like a flavored whipped cream, typically. I thought it was important to show, if you go to somebody's house for Thanksgiving, especially in the black community, and there is not a sweet potato, either like a soufflé we call it, and it has marshmallows toasted on top, which those do go back into the oven, by the way. You're going to grab your purse. I mean, you're going to be like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Get me out of here.
Cheryl Day:
Get me out of here. Where am I? So, that was my homage, that sweet potato soufflé by doing the meringue. Plus, it looked really cool. I want you to try my sweet potato pie one day-
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, I'm going to, because I think-
Cheryl Day:
... because I think there's something different. Even pumpkin, my pumpkin pie. I think it's in the spices. There's just something about it that is really different.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us if you know yet, what other pies, you guys.
Cheryl Day:
Well, we did get invited, it was just going to be the two of us for Thanksgiving, and so we did get invited to a friend's house who's having a big party that she has every year. And so, I'm doing pies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Nice.
Cheryl Day:
I'm super excited. I haven't decided completely, but I know definitely I'll probably have to do a couple of sweet potatoes because I think she said there's like 15 or so people. I think I'll do an apple pie, and I think I'll do a pecan pie. But yeah, I haven't quite decided.
But one other thing I want to say about this sweet potato pie, is over the years you worked in a bakery and when you're trying new things, you want to do different things, make things more efficient. I'm going to make two sweet potato pies, but so one will be traditional with probably the meringue, and then the other one was something I started doing at the bakery years ago. We did a double-crusted sweet potato pie and we did a lattice top and it was a double-crusted pie and that is probably one of my favorites. And then you just serve it with whipped cream on the side.
And Jessie, the great thing about that was we discovered, shout out to one of my favorite bakers that ever worked for us, Chelsea. She came up with this method where we could freeze some of our pies and that was one that we could freeze and bake off when we were doing production, getting ready for pie season. And for some reason, I don't typically freeze custard pies, but for some reason that double-crusted pie, we could stack that thing up in the freezer next to our apple pies and they would bake off beautifully.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, question about that lattice. So would you still par-bake the bottom, then put the filling, and then put the lattice top?
Cheryl Day:
Par bake the bottom, do everything just as we would. Wait, let me get this right. Did we par-bake the bottom? No, we did not. We did it like a double-crusted pie, and then we would bake it from frozen, and it was so good.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, Cheryl.
Cheryl Day:
And beautiful with that lattice, and I've never seen anyone do that before.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've never seen that either, like a custard pie with the lattice crust. I love that.
Cheryl Day:
It was delicious.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love the idea of peeking the filling through the crust. It's really pretty.
Cheryl Day:
Yes. So, I will post a picture of that-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, please.
Cheryl Day:
...because I think I'm going to do that for one of my pies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's a great idea. And then will Griff be making breads? His signature breads for this Thanksgiving?
Cheryl Day:
Griff will be making breads, but yeah, we're getting off kind of easy. He's going to do probably like Parker House rolls.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was just going to ask. Yum.
Cheryl Day:
Or maybe Janie Queen's rolls that are in this cookbook. And then yeah, then we'll just get to go to this awesome beach house in Buford, South Carolina. Super excited.
Jessie Sheehan:
Woo-hoo. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Cheryl.
Cheryl Day:
How fun was this? I just love talking to you. I could talk to you all day.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie and also my sweet potato pie.
Cheryl Day:
Aw, and you're mine. Thanks, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Diamond of California Nuts and California Prunes for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.