She’s My Cherry Pie: Claire Saffitz Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, “Snackable Bakes.” Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.
Today's guest is Claire Saffitz, the beloved dessert authority recipe developer and YouTube star. Claire is also the author of two New York Times bestselling cookbooks, "Dessert Person," and "What's for Dessert." I'm so excited to welcome Claire back to She's My Cherry Pie. For today's show Claire and I talk about being a YouTuber about her preference for hand mixers over stand mixers, about her recipe writing style, and about chocolate soufflé, including her tips and tricks for super stable ones that rise high. I know soufflé making can be intimidating, but Claire has your baking back. Stay tuned for our chat.
Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter for supporting today's show. As some of you know, I've been a big fan of Plugra for some time now and was introduced to it at my very first bakery job when I was just a newbie baker. Fast-forward to today, I'm a professional baker, cookbook author, and recipe developer, and I continue to rely on Plugra for all my baking needs. My fridge is always stocked with Plugra sticks and solids. I especially love that Plugra contains 82% butterfat. The higher butterfat content means less moisture and more fat, and as bakers know, fat equals flavor. Plugra butter is also slow churned, making it more pliable and easy to work with. I do a lot of baking this time of year for work and for myself and my family. Comfy bakes like my pistachio chocolate anytime buns and cinnamon sugar buttermilk doughnut holes. And I always reach for Plugra unsalted butter. I've also been making a lot of yeasted breads lately, and I love the buttery flavor Plugra adds to my dough. Plugra Premium European Style Butter is the perfect choice from professional kitchens to your home kitchen. Ask for Plugra at your favorite grocery store or visit Plugra.com for a store locator and recipes.
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Let's check in with today's guest. Claire. So excited to have you back on She's My Cherry Pie and to talk chocolate soufflé with you and so much more.
Claire Saffitz:
Oh, I love being here. Thank you so much for having me back.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the last time we chatted, and listeners, I highly recommend going back and giving that episode a listen if you have not already, we talked about you being a recovering perfectionist, about your two New York Times bestselling books and how they differ, about pie dough generally, fruit pie specifically, and more. But this time I thought we'd chat more about Claire as a baking instructor, because that is really what your YouTube videos are. They're baking tutorials or classes. They're so informative, accessible. And at such a pace that the viewer or home baker can literally bake alongside with you, pausing periodically, of course. So first, I know being a YouTuber, as you have jokingly referred to yourself, and one of YouTube's most popular bakers at that, was never your intention. But does the fact that via your YouTube videos you've essentially embraced teaching surprise you? Was teaching always something you could imagine yourself doing?
Claire Saffitz:
It was. It's funny, my YouTube producer now wants me to stop joking when I talk about being a YouTuber. He's like, "Can you please just actually tell people that you are on YouTube instead of joking about it?" And he's 100% right, because we've had this channel for several years now, and we do take it very seriously and work really hard at it, but the purpose is to use it as a vehicle for teaching. I don't have that much of a desire to be seen or watched generally just for the sake of being watched.
So the purpose is really teaching because as you know with baking, it's like you can write the most precise recipe ever and use so many words to do it, but it's still not really going to explain the way that something visual can explain. So it's just a great format. I mean YouTube is an amazing platform for all sorts of teaching, but I think it's so geared toward cooking and baking, so that's why I love it. I mean, I'm on there so that I can help maximize people's success when it comes to the recipes. Because again, there's only so much you can glean from something that's written on the page.
Jessie Sheehan:
One thing that is obviously clear, you can do very complicated things like project baking, hence this series with the Times, Try This at Home. Can you tell us a little bit about the series? I thought it was relevant just because we're going to talk about chocolate soufflés, and people can go online and check out the New York Times YouTube video of this. Could you tell us a little bit about the series and could you share a favorite recipe or project bake that you've encouraged viewers to try at home?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. This series kind of came out of a couple of one-off recipes that I had done for the Times that were more project baking, and this is going back a few years. So I had done a sourdough recipe and they asked me if I wanted to do croissants, and I might be getting the timeline a little bit off, but it was basically born out of this idea that do I want to help guide New York Times readers and cooking subscribers through more project style baking? And I loved that idea at the time because I was working on What's for Dessert, and all of those recipes are really geared toward simplicity. What's funny is that chocolate soufflés are from that book, so you can debate my definition of simplicity a little bit, although I still would argue that soufflés are simple in their own way. But I love the idea of having these two modes that I could be in was super simple recipe development for the book and then these really interesting, almost intellectual projects of writing these more complicated recipes that required a ton of research and a ton of testing.
I think that croissants really kicked things off, that video on New York Times cooking, performed exceptionally well on that recipe. So many people made that recipe, which is incredible, and I still see people making it. I'm super proud of that recipe. And then it kind of grew from there as like, I'm going to walk you through something kind of complicated. It might be a weekend project, it might take you a couple of days, but I'm going to make it really doable. I just feel like anything in baking is doable if you can break it down into discrete steps and know when you can pause. And then yeah, it's going to take you a while. No one thing is that hard. Where people make mistakes is where they're skipping a step, or rushing, or having to move on before something is really ready. So the idea is to make these things that feel unapproachable a little bit more approachable.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've been talking a lot with guests recently about their recipe writing styles. I just had Gemma Stafford on the podcast from Bigger Bolder Baking and she likes to write very little. I'm going to ask you where you fall, because in Dessert Person you acknowledge that you use a lot of words in your recipe, that you like to have a lot of indicators in your recipe. So I thought two things. First, could you tell us a little bit about why you fall in the camp of writing more? And then also, I think people know, but tell us about indicators, because I thought that was such a great example when you describe why you use so many words in Dessert Person.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. Yes. I definitely err on the side of more words rather than less. It is a tension though that I think about a lot as a recipe developer and writer because on the one hand I think more words are better in giving all the information that I think someone could possibly need to account for all of the variations and the possible outcomes. But on the other hand, someone sees a 1000 word recipe, no one's going to make that. It is something that I think about all the time and really try to strike a little bit of a balance. And so I've developed certain aspects to my recipe writing to help people digest the amount of words on the page a little more easily. So I use headers in the steps. I don't use numbers actually, because I feel like in baking recipes, there's so many numbers everywhere.
There's the quantities and the times. So I use header steps and I bold them. So that's to help break up all of the words and to also give people kind of a roadmap. So it's like if you were to look at the recipe and just read the headers, you would know what the basic steps are. So I try to give that to people and provide a little bit of a roadmap because once you can visualize the steps, or conceive of just what am I doing here, what is the process? I think it becomes easier to imagine yourself doing it and to then take that on. But yeah, I do feel like I use a lot of words, and I do use a lot of parentheticals and a lot of m-dashes and little sort of asides to sort tell people, hey, if this thing happens, don't worry too much. It was maybe too hot, but let it cool. Or if this happens, don't worry, it'll all smooth out in the next step.
So I do want to assuage people's anxiety that they did something wrong. I feel like it's worth it to use the extra whatever, 100 words or whatever it is in a recipe. I tend to agonize over recipe language and writing a lot. And did I describe adequately how to press that foil into the pan, or did I say to use a brush to grease the pan instead of, did I not mention anything and are people going to know how to do that? I think about it all the time and I'm always kind of refining my language. And I think as time goes on, I still want to be really precise and I still want to give all the information I can, but I also like the idea of making the tone a little more conversational, a little less rigid in its kind of instruction language. It's totally an evolution and I always just want my recipe writing to feel like it's getting, in some ways more specific, but also less rigid, if that makes sense.
Jessie Sheehan:
I sometimes, I'm sure you do the same, I'll look back at a recipe I've written and I'm both sad that I wrote it that way, but I'm also excited, because I love now knowing, oh, now I do it this way, and that makes it clearer, even though you're saying the exact same thing.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. I learned recipe writing at a magazine where there's a house style. In some ways, what I learned provided the foundation for me and that was incredible and that's true, but it also can make you into a little bit of a recipe robot where you're just filling in. It's like, okay, start with the action, and then the vessel, and then give the time, and then the indicator. So I've tried to get away from that as I've just developed more and more. But I still take the idea of recipe structure and sentence structure seriously, and I stick with that. So one thing I learned from my Bon Appetit days is indicators are so important in recipe writing. And I was following a recipe the other day out of a book, which I don't normally do, and it didn't really have an indicator, and I was like, I really need that indicator because I don't really know what I'm looking for at this step.
And one thing, if anyone's researched or done a lot of listening into the world of recipe development and writing, you've probably heard the idea of cook to the indicator, not the timeframe, which I'm religious about telling people, because it's kind of like the number one way to screw up a recipe is to only pay attention to the times given, especially in baking, I think. Indicators are so important. I try to give two, or three, or even four if I can, if I have the space. So that's basically how do you know when you've reached the end of that step, and it's not going to be the timeframe. Because when you're baking, it's like your oven makes such a difference, your cooking vessel, the material of your bake ware, all of these things affect the timing.
And so it's like if you know that the cake is supposed to be golden brown, slightly domed on the surface, springy to the touch in the center and a toothpick is going to come out clean, then you have all the information that you need. So indicators are huge. Sometimes when you cook or bake as much as I do, you can forget that people don't know what they're looking for at certain stages of a recipe. I have to remind myself sometimes just to give all of the ones I can think of, but I'm also really good at noticing indicators now because I'm so trained to do it. It's so important, and I hope that people are paying attention to them in the recipe because they're there for a reason.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted to say one last thing before we jump into the recipe, about the marriage of the recipe and then actually making it in a video, because I always find that when I'm doing videos or I'm demoing, I had no idea how much I have to share in terms of tips, and tricks, and explanations until I am actually doing it, and then they're flowing out of you and you can hardly stop. And I was so aware of that watching the video of you making the soufflé versus reading the recipe. There was so much good Claire stuff that came out in that video that we'll talk about. Do you feel like you're the same, you're surprised at how much when you start to demo it?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, I mean, I remember making a soufflé, maybe for the first time, I think, when I was in culinary school, so I was 24. And when I make a soufflé now I think about that. And so it's like something like a soufflé where again, I kind of make the argument that it's a simple thing, and it is. There's also so much technique involved and so many little precise moments, and the timing is so precise, and you want to bake it just right to the very correct doneness. It really feels like there's an entire pastry career that goes into making a soufflé, and knowing all of these really precise moments and indicators like we just talked about. So yes, when I am demoing, or teaching, or we're recording a video, there is no recipe where there wouldn't be like an encyclopedia, something for me to say about it.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by California Prunes, the best kind of prunes out there. I'm a big fan of California Prunes for two reasons. They're a great addition to your pantry when it comes to smart snacking and baking. California Prunes are good for your gut, your heart, and even your bones. They contain dietary fiber and other nutrients to support good gut health and vitamin K, copper and antioxidants to support healthy bones. I've started making myself a daily smoothie, which is a great vehicle for incorporating healthy foods into your diet. One of my favorite combinations right now is blueberries and kale with some prunes added for natural sweetness and depth of flavor.
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Okay, so now we're going to talk about chocolate soufflé. And first I have to ask, and I think this is right, is chocolate soufflé when you're folding the whites into the chocolate, the cover girl of “What's for Dessert?”
Claire Saffitz:
Yes, that is. That photo was part of the process that we shot. So the final chapter in What's for Dessert is a techniques-based chapter, but it's all really simple stuff. But I think people want to know about how to do simple stuff. So that was really to demonstrate folding. And it's perfect because you have white egg white and this dark glossy chocolate base, so you see the contrast. You can literally see the two things incorporating, and pretty much as soon as we shot that photo, I was like, I feel like that's... That was my favorite photo of the whole shoot and I was like, I feel like that's a cover.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so good.
Claire Saffitz:
And everyone agreed, which is very rare for a cover shot.
Jessie Sheehan:
Never happens. All right. Can you describe what exactly a soufflé is in case people are a little confused?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. A soufflé is a combination of, it could be sweet or savory, and so it is a combination of a flavored base against sweet or savory and egg whites. So the base provides the structure and the flavor and the egg whites provide the lightness. So a soufflé, more than anything, is a textural experience when you bite into one because it is like a cloud. And so it dissolves on the tongue, you eat it right out of the oven so it's warm or even hot. It's ethereal because it basically starts to collapse as soon as it comes out of the oven. I love soufflés. I feel like, in some ways, they represent a kind of high watermark of baking because it employs these miraculous tools like beaten egg whites, and ingredients like chocolate and sugar. So obviously I'm very passionate about soufflés. I love them so much. One thing I say in the head note of the chocolate soufflé recipe in What's for Dessert is that I feel like I could write a whole cookbook on soufflés. They're fascinating and incredible.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also love that they're essentially a pantry-friendly, or at least this chocolate one is a pantry-friendly dessert.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's calling for ingredients that most of us, if we like chocolate, have in our pantries.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also think it's worth noting that soufflés really have no season. A chocolate soufflé would be beautiful in the winter, but it would also be beautiful in the spring with berries. And you've said, which I love, that although there are a lot of soufflé rules, it's actually quicker and less complicated than the warnings would lead you to believe. And I love that note of yours a lot, because I feel like that often with baked goods, like an upside-down cake or an angel food cake. Things that we know are actually really easy to make-
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
... but that they seem kind of scary. I love that there are these things that are actually fundamentally simple if, as you've said, we kind of break down what the techniques are.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. Yeah, I think with soufflés there's a lot of fearmongering about them, which I understand to a point, but I hate that it would deter people from making one, because while sort of the margin for a perfect soufflé is so slim, it doesn't really matter, because it's like a slightly denser soufflé, especially chocolate, is going to be amazing. It's just going to taste like a lighter brownie. If it's a little undercooked, it's going to taste like raw chocolate batter, which is still really good. And if it's a little overcooked, it'll be a little more slightly drier and more cake-like. But it's like those are all great versions of something that are going to taste good, and be fine, and that people are going to be happy to eat. I don't want the truisms about soufflés to deter people from making them because yes, there's a lot of precision and technique, but almost any version of them is going to taste really good.
Jessie Sheehan:
So the first thing, we'll preheat our oven to four-twenty-five, and we're going to prep the ramekins. Why is it so important to prep the ramekins now at the beginning of the recipe, and why ramekins as opposed to a, I don't even know what you call sort of a very large format ramekin or soufflé dish.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. Yes. Okay. So these are individual soufflés, which I think is important because it is much easier to achieve even baking in smaller ramekins, you basically have more surface area. So four small ramekins, there's going to have more surface area than one soufflé dish, and I think that's really important, especially for beginners. So yes, you could make one large soufflé, but it is harder to get that exact point of doneness in the center before you've kind of overcooked the outsides.
It's important to prep them first as you're preheating the oven, because soufflés are based on egg whites, beaten egg whites. So beaten egg whites when you mix them with sugar and you whip them, they trap air and you make this foam that is all these millions of little air bubbles and that is inherently unstable. What you really don't want to do is make your soufflé batter and have it sit there while then you're buttering your ramekins because you're going to lose all this volume, and those little bubbles are going to pop. So mise en place like getting everything organized, and having all your ingredients ready, and especially your ramekins prepped is very important.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to now generously and thickly brush room temperature butter using a pastry brush over the bottoms and sides of four six-ounce ramekins. We're using straight upward strokes along the sides, brushing all the way to the rim, which I love this little note, but first of all, it's an extra sticky spot, but also that rim in a ramekin is a design element that's made for a soufflé.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. So the ramekins don't have actually straight sides all the way to the top. It's a little lip at the very top of the rim, and that is there for soufflé making. And it is very important to butter that entire surface in the inside, basically anything that's not part of the fluted exterior, because egg whites are super sticky, and they will anchor to anything that isn't really thoroughly buttered. And what happens when egg white anchors, especially at the top of the ramekin, is you start to lose the rise and you'll get something that domes rather than rises with these beautiful tall straight sides, which is what you want. So buttering the whole thing is important. And those upward strokes also, this is again something from our French chef demo in culinary school. That upward motion creates these kinds of streaks in the butter that will help encourage that batter to rise upwards.
Jessie Sheehan:
And can you tell us, do you have a brand of brush or a type of brush? Do you like bristles? Do you like silicone?
Claire Saffitz:
Oh, I like bristles. I like a natural bristle brush. I am truly dissatisfied with basically all pastry brushes because they don't keep the bristles, and the bristles fall out and they get smelly. And my favorite pastry brush is actually a Japanese brush that has soft bristles. So it's actually not great for buttering stuff because you need something with a little bit of structure. So if anyone wants to reinvent the pastry brush and make it not lose its bristles, and make it easier to clean, and dishwasher safe, that would be great.
Jessie Sheehan:
After we have brushed in these upward strokes, we're going to give this sugar dusting to our ramekins. Can you tell us why we want to dust with sugar?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. So in any sweet soufflé, you'll probably always see sugar as the sort of coating for your buttered ramekins. And in the case of savory recipes, you might see Parmesan cheese or breadcrumbs. And basically it is there to act as like grips. If you picture a climbing wall like the little rock grips, and that is there to help the batter rise out of the ramekin, which is what you want it to do. So really important, otherwise you'd have just greased the sides and that's not going to, it's going to want to slide back down the ramekin rather than continue to climb.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to put about a tablespoon of sugar in each ramekin, shake around, tilt and rotate, tap out some excess into the next ramekin. We're going to place our ramekins, our prepared ramekins, on a sheet pan. And then also, I know you don't want us to clump them together in the center of the pan.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
How come we need to spread them out?
Claire Saffitz:
Right. So they should be spread out so that there is plenty of air circulation around all of them, that way they will rise evenly. You'll notice even sometimes the soufflés in the back of the oven, so in one side of the sheet pan might be slightly higher on one side, the side that's facing the back of the oven because you're getting more heat kind of reflected from there. And I just like the food service ones really. We use standard half sheet pans, aluminum, light cheap. We beat them up pretty good.
Jessie Sheehan:
The little lip.
Claire Saffitz:
Right, exactly. The little rolled lip, yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, rolled lip. So now we're going to make the chocolate base. Can we call it a pastry cream?
Claire Saffitz:
It is basically a pastry cream.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claire Saffitz:
Yes, essentially.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to make our chocolate pastry cream, and if it was savory, we would call it a bechamel or it would be a bechamel.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know we're going to use a makeshift double boiler here. Tell us why. I know you say in the Times video you tried it without-
Claire Saffitz:
Right. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... but tell us why we need this to make our pastry cream.
Claire Saffitz:
So I'm only making four soufflés. And the reason I'm not making more is because it's such a sensitive operation, it's just not really practical to make eight. And they don't bake as evenly, and I feel like for beginners, you're not in a restaurant, just make four, it's just a better place to start. Most of the volume of the batter is egg white, so the quantity of ingredients that I'm using to make this flour-based pastry cream is really small. And if you do it even in a small saucepan, the chance of it overcooking is really high. So I do it in a double boiler, which is just a little saucepan of simmering water with a heatproof bowl set on top. It's a nice gentle heat that is being applied to whatever's in the bowl. You'll just get much more consistent results. It is basically a pastry cream. It's not going to look like the pastry cream you're used to. So I didn't call it that, I just called it the soufflé base, but that is basically what it is.
Jessie Sheehan:
With our double boiler, we'll have about a half or one inch of water in our pot or saucepan. I noticed there was a New York Times comment, it's not a saucepan she's using, it's called a pot.
Claire Saffitz:
Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which I thought was hilarious.
Claire Saffitz:
Very New York Times comment.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Exactly. But anyway, a sauce pan, a pot, and we're going to bring that to a low simmer, or a simmer and then maybe lower the temp a little bit. Should be steaming. And then in a medium heatproof bowl, I know sometimes you're using glass, but you've said that metal is actually better for a double boiler because of the better heat transfer.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Some things often just don't cook that, or just takes so long for things to cook in glass because it's a poor heat conductor, which can be a good thing. But in the case of a double boiler where I'm actually trying to cook, here I'm trying to cook flour and yolks actually, it's just going to happen so much faster in metal.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is restaurant supply kind of where you would pick up your metal bowls?
Claire Saffitz:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claire Saffitz:
We have a set of nesting bowls. I think they're like Winco is the brand. They're super lightweight and I like how they're so wide, which is great for folding.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to blanch the eggs. And blanch is to lighten. And we're going to blanch the eggs by whisking together sugar and a few of the yolks from the recipe, and whisk vigorously until the mixture is pale, light, and thick. When I first heard blanch, you talk about blanching, I thought it was tempering, but it's a different thing. It's the step when you're merely lightening the eggs.
Claire Saffitz:
Yes. So blanching and tempering almost always go together, but in this case I'm actually not tempering, because again, the volumes of things that I'm using are so small. I'm basically just mixing everything together and then applying heat. So normally with blanching it's like you're pouring in a hot liquid, either like lemon juice if you're making curd, or milk or dairy if you're making custard. It's just kind of like everybody in the pool. But there's a very specific order of combining things, so starting with the eggs and sugar and then you're pouring in your liquids.
Jessie Sheehan:
I loved this note, because I've always known this to be true but didn't actually know the reason behind it. You say, be sure at this stage of the game, the sugar and yolks, not to leave them by themselves for a while and go answer the phone.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us why?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, so I had also always heard like, oh, sugar cooks the yolks. I don't know that that's actually, I don't think, it doesn't mean it's pasteurizing them, but basically what happens is the sugar pulls moisture from the yolk and you get little tiny hardened bits of yolk that don't really ever incorporate into the recipe. Anytime I have eggs and sugar, I always keep them separate until I'm actually doing that step.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to slowly stream in some milk. Doesn't have to be room temperature.
Claire Saffitz:
Nope-
Jessie Sheehan:
No?
Claire Saffitz:
... because it's all going to get heated, so if it's cold, it doesn't really matter.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to slowly stream in some milk whisking constantly and scraping the bowl. We're going to follow that with a little bit of coffee. I'm assuming coffee is there to sort of pop the chocolate-
Claire Saffitz:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... as opposed to make it taste like coffee.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. It's not coffee flavored, it's just there as a flavor enhancer for the coffee, and then to also add a little extra liquid.
Jessie Sheehan:
And now we're going to add some all-purpose flour. I know as we add the flour we're going to be whisking continuously. And again, this is one of those things that I know to do, but can you tell us why we have to whisk our flour continuously?
Claire Saffitz:
Anytime I'm adding a dry ingredient to liquid rather than the other way around, there's just that chance of lumps. So the continuous whisking is just there to help make sure that the flour isn't kind of clumping anywhere. And so this is a flour thickened pastry cream base basically, and there are recipes out there, in fact, I did one back in my BA days for chocolate soufflés that don't use any, there's no starch or flour, it's basically just a base of melted chocolate. And those soufflés are incredible. They taste amazing because there's so much pure chocolate flavor, but the structure isn't there. So I add just this little amount of flour because I think amongst soufflé people there's a debate of do you add starch or not? Because if you add too much flour or a starch, it can mute the flavor. But to me two tablespoons adds so much noticeable structure to the soufflés and to me doesn't really affect the flavor very much. So it's very worth it to me to add just that little bit of flour.
Jessie Sheehan:
For insurance. But you also say, since you've added the flour, the insurance to make sure that it doesn't mute the flavor is a teeny bit of cocoa powder-
Claire Saffitz:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... to help pop the chocolate flavor just in case?
Claire Saffitz:
Absolutely.
Jessie Sheehan:
That flour interferes?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, because that flour is there to add structure, because when you take the soufflés out of the oven, they're never going to be taller than that moment. And without any flour or anything to stabilize them they've fallen by the time you get to the table. These are really, I think as far as soufflés go, pretty stable. So it's like you take them out of the oven and they're definitely going to start to fall, but it's not so dramatic. And so the cocoa powder is there because I love using melted chocolate, but melted chocolate has fat in it. It has cacao butter in it. And any fat tends to destabilize the egg whites. So by adding cocoa powder, which does actually have a little bit of fat in it, but much less than bar chocolate, you're adding chocolate flavor without kind of also compromising the structure.
Jessie Sheehan:
We've added a little bit of cocoa powder. We're also going to be adding chopped chocolate. Can you tell us what each one contributes to the soufflé, why we want both?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. The cocoa powder is there to sort of intensify the chocolate flavor. The vast majority of it is coming from chopped chocolate. And I think it just gives the most incredible silky texture to the soufflés. There are people who think that soufflés should be basically fat-free because it's all about maintaining that egg white foam. But to me it's like if there's no richness at all, it's not pleasant actually. It's like eating flavored beaten egg whites kind of, which isn't really appealing to me. So I really want a lot of the flavor to come from that chopped chocolate. So you basically kind of cook this mixture in the double boiler until it's slightly thickened. I will say that the thickening is really subtle, so that's a little bit of a tricky part of this recipe. If you have an instant read thermometer, I think it's really handy to use so that you know you've cooked the eggs. And then you're incorporating the chopped chocolate into that base until it's melted. So it is really mostly chocolate and there's just enough of this base to kind of bring everything together and to really help stabilize it.
Jessie Sheehan:
We have a few indicators here, but we're going to whisk for about five to seven minutes. There'll be subtle changes. It'll look slightly darker, consistency of thin pancake batter, faintly holds the mark of a whisk, no more foam. And then if you, to really double check, instant read thermometer is about 170 to 180.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
Like you said, we're going to add our chocolate into the bowl off the heat. Brand of chocolate that you like either in this recipe or-
Claire Saffitz:
Usually Guittard. Although at home I was doing so much recipe development with chocolate that I got food service Valrhona. Like big, I think it was five kilos bags?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claire Saffitz:
Is that right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. It's kind of-
Claire Saffitz:
Something like that.
Jessie Sheehan:
I thought this was interesting. We don't actually want a super bittersweet chocolate in this recipe. Can you tell us why the 60 to 70% is more what we want?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Anything above 70 tends to be really temperamental. Chocolate is a very temperature sensitive ingredient and it is like an emulsion, so you have the cocoa solids and the fat. I just feel like anytime I've tried to melt chocolate over 70%, the chance of it separating goes up quite a bit. I feel like anywhere in the 60 to 70% range is good because it's not very sweet, and so you get that intensity. The tendency for it to break on you goes way down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once we've added the chocolate and we whisk a little, we're going to set it aside just to let the chocolate melt.
Claire Saffitz:
Mm-hmm.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're going to add some vanilla and a remaining egg yolk. We haven't used all the egg yolks yet. So I had a question. I understand that we're waiting to add the yolk until the mixture cools a little because we don't want to scramble the yolk, but why are we separating the yolks anyway, and is that a Claire thing or is that a French pastry school thing, like always add a yolk at the end?
Claire Saffitz:
I was trying to remember why I decided to do that, because I was reading back in my recipe to familiar, I haven't made these in a while, and I don't really remember. I'm almost positive it's like a pastry school thing. It's from my textbook. Even though in culinary school I would always ask, well, why do you do it that way? And there was often not a satisfactory answer, I still believe that they weren't lying. I still believe them that it's the right way to do it, but I wasn't always getting a clear answer. So I think I'm adding the last or the third yolk after the chocolate is in, I seriously don't even remember why. But I still think it's important. I'm not saying don't do it.
Jessie Sheehan:
You might've meant yolks generally, but perhaps you meant specifically you said something about the yolk and the liquid from the vanilla giving the soufflé the right consistency, making the mixture super glossy.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
So I wondered if something about adding it later in the process.
Claire Saffitz:
So right, it's basically a mixture of the batter having cooked yolks and then one raw. It's definitely something about that balance and having a raw yolk in that batter to kind of like, maybe it's the emulsifying properties. That sounds right to me. I think. If I made these again I would definitely follow my recipe. And I also think it's there to loosen it up a little bit. And if you've had any issues incorporating the chocolate or if it starts to break at all, maybe that's why.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to set it aside to cool slightly while we whip up the whites. But I love, this is a thing you do in the recipes and What's for Dessert that I love, which is, you have this potential pitfalls sidebars. And for this you do say don't let this mixture cool, this pastry cream cool completely, or the chocolate will harden up, but if that happens, you can rewarm in a double boiler.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. My kitchen runs insanely hot. It didn't even really occur to me that people would experience a kind of thickening or hardening of their chocolate base until our photo shoot, which was in a really cold kitchen. And so I remember, was it Veronica? One of the food assistants came to me and was like, "What do I do? The chocolate base, I'm not able to incorporate the yolks." And I saw that basically the chocolate had started to firm up. So because it is such a high proportion of bar chocolate to all the other ingredients, it will actually harden and get really thick, and be really hard to incorporate the whites. But in my kitchen it was staying pretty liquid because it was just so hot. So generally with soufflé making, you do want to very room temperature base. This one just has to be warm room temperature for it to stay spreadable. So if you're in a cold kitchen and it starts to harden on you, that's fine. You just want it ever so slightly warm.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to whip our whites, which is an incredibly important step. The central technique as you've described it, to soufflé making as that revolves around preserving as much air as possible, giving soufflé their lightness. So at the risk of getting a little scientifically granular, can you tell us about egg whites and their proteins, and albu... I'm not even sure how you pronounce it.
Claire Saffitz:
Albumin.
Jessie Sheehan:
Albumin and denatured proteins. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens when we do what we're about to do?
Claire Saffitz:
I'm just going to take all the words you said and put them in a different order. I don't know if I can get more specific, but yes. So basically when you're making meringue, or any kind of beaten egg white, you are creating a foam. So you're combining sugar and egg whites, and also in this case a little bit of salt. And you want to work in a clean bowl. And I do the recipe with a hand mixer, I also give instructions for a stand mixer, you can do either one. Although I do think sometimes it's easier to over beat in a stand mixer, because it can go so fast, and you don't actually have such a great view of what's happening inside the bowl, because it can be very tall. Either one works.
But make sure the beaters are clean. You don't want any fat because fat will inhibit that whipping. So when you combine sugar and egg whites, you are like denaturing the proteins in the egg whites, which is allowing them to, they unfold and they're able then to trap air. And again, I can't get, don't ask me any more questions about it because that's about... I've looked very deeply into the science, but I didn't retain any of that information. That was sort of like-
Jessie Sheehan:
I know but-
Claire Saffitz:
... the top notes.
Jessie Sheehan:
... nouns you were throwing around. I was like, oh my god, denatured proteins?
Claire Saffitz:
Right, it sounds really good, but that's about all I can say about it.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's great.
Claire Saffitz:
All I know is that then it can hold air, and that's really important and it's so crucial to so much of baking. And so I gradually add the sugar as I'm beating. The first thing you want to really do is break up the whites because when you crack an egg, there's some watery parts, but it really tends to hold together. So you want to get them broken up in liquid and then you can gradually increase the speed. And generally adding the sugar slowly and whipping slowly is good. That will help to create a more stable foam. Everything that you're doing at this stage is about creating stability when you're incorporating the air. So by slowly adding the sugar, you're making sort of finer air bubbles. And that gradual whipping is again helping to sort of increase stability. And so you're just kind of sprinkling in the little bit of sugar while beating the egg whites.
The recipe calls for five egg whites and actually three yolks. So you have a couple of yolks left over to use in another recipe. And I'm talking about why that is, because here you really need a large volume of egg whites to lighten this super chocolatey mixture. So I love beating egg whites. The real crucial part comes in that indicator, knowing when they're done. So you want to beat them until they form stiff peaks but are not dry. There's this really visual transformation that happens when you're beating egg whites where you go, you start off, they look very liquid, and then they go kind of opaque and white, and then they know they're gaining in volume, and then you get these kind of super droopy soft peaks where it's still kind of liquid and they don't hold their shape. And you keep beating and you keep beating and you get to kind of medium where they're starting to have a little bit of structure to them.
And then after lots of beating, you get to firm peaks and depending on how much sugar you use, it's going to look like really glossy. I love how they get so shiny, and they're super opaque, so you know that you have very, very fine air bubbles. Beating to firm peaks is really important because that is going to give structure to your soufflé. But if you go past that point, and it's not like this is so precise. It's not like if you beat it for five seconds more you're going to have gone too long. It's more like if you forget about it and keep beating, they get very dry and you'll see there's a definite texture change. They go from being glossy to kind of matte. They get this kind of curd like texture to them. They look lumpy and that's going to be very hard to incorporate. And then your soufflé is actually going to lack structure because you've gone too far. So that kind of firm glossy peak is really important.
Jessie Sheehan:
I'm just going to unpack that a little bit just to give people even more little details. I love this idea, because I was going to ask you if a stand mixer was okay. I love your reasons for using a hand mixer here. I think that's important, because often I know when I write recipes I'm always just saying this or that, this or that. I love that your reasons for why a hand mixer makes sense here in terms of the bowl, and in terms of control. So if we're using a hand mixer we'll have a large metal or glass bowl, but we're going to avoid plastic. Can you tell us why we don't want to whip our egg whites in plastic?
Claire Saffitz:
Yes. So plastic is not good for egg whites because even what you think is a clean plastic bowl has actually retained a very subtle fat residue from whatever was in the bowl previously. And that is going to inhibit whipping. And if you've ever tried to whip egg whites in a bowl, you'll notice they slide down the sides. They just don't gain volume the way that they would in a glass or metal bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I love this as well. The eggs we're using, in an ideal world, you're getting your eggs from their, well, we're whipping them when they're room temp. We're going to separate them when they're not, and we'll talk about that in a second. But that we want them to be not from the farmer's market, from actually the grocery store. And can you tell us why we want supermarket eggs?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Supermarket eggs as opposed to farmer's market eggs are a lot older, which is generally like no one thinks is a good thing unless you're making meringue. Older eggs, I think it's because the water content is slightly lower. They've actually lost some moisture through the shell. Older eggs just whip better, and room temperature whip better.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's a really good note for people that you actually, if you're thinking about it, separate them earlier so that they can come to room temp, but don't let them come to room temp in the shell. If you need to separate them, do it beforehand.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. You're so much more likely to break the yolk when they're room temp. When they're cold, they're firmer, so you're going to have a better time separating them and then let them reach room temp separately.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then are you, I think I saw you do this in the video, but a lot of people think that they should be cracking their eggs on the rim of a bowl. Do you always crack on the counter?
Claire Saffitz:
I always crack on the counter because the chance of getting a little shell in there is pretty high if you're using the edge of the bowl.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I also love this, because in our bowl we're going to be whipping or beating egg whites with a little salt, and I know we're going to use Diamond Crystal, but I love that you tell people what to use. How much if they're using Morton's, because usually people just say Diamond Crystal, not Morton's.
Claire Saffitz:
Right. I'm very dedicated to giving both. Again, it's one of those, I use more words, but I think it's worth it, because I don't trust people to read the one note I put at the front of the book, which says, if you're using Morton use half the amount that I call of Diamond, and then apply that to the whole book. It's like all the information needs to be on the page that people are on.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yep, I love that. And I love this too. That the salt is actually a great addition when whipping egg whites because it contributes to the stability and then also pops that chocolate flavor.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
So we're going to use our hand mixer, we're going to beat it on low speed until the whites are broken. Just as you say, they can be, whites can be like a little blob-
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
... and you want to break up your blob. Just about 30 seconds. We're going very slow at this frothy stage because the stability in the foam is going to be better achieved at a slow pace.
Claire Saffitz:
Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Which is hard for those of us that are impatient. But I try to do this. We're gradually adding our sugar, again because that gradual speed of adding the sugar again helps with the stability.
Claire Saffitz:
Right.
Jessie Sheehan:
And you also say, stops you from beating, or can preclude the chance that you're going to over beat.
Claire Saffitz:
Yes. Yes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Because you're taking time to do that.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. I mean the sugar gives a kind of elasticity to the egg whites. So the more sugar you have, the less likely you are to over beat. And the more your egg white mixture will be super glossy and dense.
Jessie Sheehan:
Once all the sugar is added we will increase our speed to medium high, and we're going to continue to beat until we have dense, glossy egg whites that hold a stiff peak. Can you tell us some of those indicators?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, so this is another reason why I like a hand mixer because you can start and stop so easily to check on this. And again, working in a wide bowl, it's like you're looking at more surface area of the egg whites to really gauge. So definitely surface texture is important. It should be really glossy, super opaque, white. The transformation is just incredible from this yellowy liquid egg white to this now kind of meringue egg white foam. When you lift those beaters up, the mixture should form these peaks. So when you see stiff peaks, it's like classic recipe language, but this is really what it's talking about. They should stand straight up. So if you have medium peaks, they might kind of flop over like the tip of a dairy cone, like in a commercial like the soft serve. You want them to stand nice upright, like little bunny ears or that kind of thing.
So that's really important. And if you're not there, just keep beating. And once you hit that point, I would maybe test every 20 seconds or so of beating on high with a hand mixer. And then once you're there, you're there. You don't have to keep going. Again, it's not like if you beat for an extra five seconds, you're going to somehow ruin it. It takes a decent amount of extra beating to get to that point where you've over beaten them. But just to be paying attention to how is the texture changing. Of course the volume is going to have changed dramatically, it's going to have more than quadrupled in volume. So beating egg whites takes a little bit of practice to really be attuned to those important endpoints. But I do give a lot of information in the book about what that looks like.
Jessie Sheehan:
I just selfishly have to take a moment to talk about hand mixers with you. First of all, I would love to know the brand that you love, become I've become obsessed. I think it's Kitchen Aid, I'm not sure, but it's a cordless one.
Claire Saffitz:
Oh.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my god, Claire. Anyway-
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, the cord is super annoying.
Jessie Sheehan:
The cord is annoying, and particularly you don't, well you do do this. Like making your videos at home, it's nice to be able to do it without a cord in there.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
But my question for you is, so when you're just Claire at home developing a recipe, if you can avoid it do you not touch the stand mixer and always use a hand mixer?
Claire Saffitz:
Pretty much. I mean, I know, often when I get out my stand mixer I'm glad I got it out because it's so much easier.
Jessie Sheehan:
Right.
Claire Saffitz:
But it's just annoying to get out. And I keep it on the counter, so it's like, obviously I'm pretty lazy, I guess, but it just feels so much easier to get out a bowl and the hand mixer rather than the whole stand mixer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I mean, I pride myself in my recipes and my writing to never use mixers, hand or stand, but sometimes when I pull out a hand mixer I'm like, oh my God, this is easy.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
This is not that hard. I don't know what it is, but it feels so different than using your stand mixer.
Claire Saffitz:
I will try to do basically everything by hand when I'm at home because it does come from laziness a little bit. But in the case of egg whites, it's like you have to use a mixer unless you really want an extreme arm workout. But I like the Breville hand mixer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Claire Saffitz:
It's definitely more expensive. Probably twice the price of your average hand mixer, but the power is definitely superior. It has a light and it has a count-up timer, which is amazing.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
One more question. They usually come with a beater plus a whiskey looking thing.
Claire Saffitz:
Oh yeah, I get rid of that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Never use the whiskey thing?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah, the beater pretty much does whatever that does.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Claire Saffitz:
I think one time I used it to whipped cream, but it was like-
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Why?
Claire Saffitz:
... It's the same.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, good to know. Thank you.
Claire Saffitz:
They also have a corkscrew attachment and I have no idea what that's for.
Jessie Sheehan:
I've seen that. I think it's supposed to be a dough-
Claire Saffitz:
For bread?
Jessie Sheehan:
Is it supposed to be-
Claire Saffitz:
Oh, there's no way that's-
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you imagine? You're like, I'm beating my bread right now.
Claire Saffitz:
I'm going to make my two ounces of bread dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, exactly.
Claire Saffitz:
I can't imagine that works.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right, now we're going to mix our whites into our chocolate pastry cream. I love that you describe it this way, but there's first a sacrificial addition of whites into the chocolate. Tell us why we need our sacrificial addition.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. And this is why the recipe has three yolks, but five whites. You need a kind of larger, I mean, of course I would love for every recipe to have that parity of equal numbers of yolks and whites so that you just use whole eggs, but it needs that extra amount of egg white because that first addition of egg whites into the base is really there to loosen everything up. So when you're folding something, when you're folding two things together, the idea of folding is to preserve volume. So all that air that you've worked into that whipped cream or the egg whites, and if the two mixtures are vastly different densities, then they're not going to incorporate. So that first addition is to lighten and loosen that chocolate base, which is pretty thick. And you always want the base for soufflés to be thick. You don't want it to have so much moisture, because the moisture will also compromise the integrity of the batter. So you want it to be thick. So that first addition is really there to loosen it and to get the texture light enough that then you can fold.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. And I also love your sacrificial addition is added with a whisk rather, I was always folding mine with my spatula.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us why a whisk is okay at this point.
Claire Saffitz:
So when you've incorporated the chocolate, you've whisked it. So you already have a whisk right there. And I have already kind of adjusted the recipe so that if there's no volume gained from that amount of egg whites in the chocolate base, then it's not going to matter. There's enough egg whites there to lighten everything to the point where it needs to be. So I don't care if you lose volume. So the whisk is good because you can do it really fast.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to switch to a large flexible spatula, and using kind of broad but gentle, decisive strokes, we're going to fold the remaining whites into the chocolate in two additions until the mixture is almost streak free. This is an example, what I'm going to ask you now is an example of something that's so hard to write and so hard to talk about, but would be so easy to show, but explain folding.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Okay. So folding, one thing that has been brought up to me multiple occasions is the Schitt's Creek moment of folding, which was truly pivotal for me in writing this book because it really did make me realize how the knowledge is very specific of what does folding mean. It could be easy for people like us to just think that people know what that means, but they really don't. So folding is a technique for incorporating an ingredient where you want to preserve a lot of the air. So I mentioned whipped cream, or egg whites. So in making a mousse, or in making a sponge cake, you're going to see folding used. Folding is basically you're taking a big spatula, and the idea is that you are dragging it kind of down and across the bottom inside of a bowl where you have these two mixtures that need to be incorporated.
And you're kind of taking what's on the bottom and bringing it up to the top, and then there's a wrist kind of rotation that then is depositing that on top. So you're taking from the bottom and lifting up to the top. And what's crucial about this is that you're also rotating the bowl, because if you don't rotate the bowl and kind of cut down into the middle of the mixture, you'll never actually combine the two things, you'll just keep rotating from the top to the bottom. It's a gentle method of incorporating an ingredient like egg whites so that you retain all that volume, because if you were just to stir it in, you're going to pop so many of those little air bubbles.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to fill our ramekins, and I love this, the trick to a tall soufflé is completely filling the ramekins all the way to the very top. They will literally double in height in the oven if you do this. So we're going to spoon the batter into the ramekins, fill to the rim. This was interesting. We're going to tap the ramekins delicately on the work surface to help settle the batter. I worry about deflating. I would be scared to do that.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. So when I tap, often it's on a towel so I'm not getting a really sharp motion. I'm not trying to pop the air bubbles, I'm just trying to eliminate really big air pockets. It's so gentle. It's just a motion to kind of get everything into a single layer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now working one ramekin at a time. We're going to use a small offset spatula, which I read is one of your favorite tools?
Claire Saffitz:
Definitely. Number one.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. Love. So with a small offset or a butter knife, we're going to smooth the surface of the top of each ramekin working over the batter bowl. We're going to scrape off any excess batter with a quick motion so that they're level and flush with the top of the ramekin. Now we're going to sprinkle a teeny bit of sugar on top of each one. Can you tell us why?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. By the way, this process is really messy. Every time I did it I made it a little bit of a mess. So working over the bowl is good because there's going to be excess batter that can then get scraped off. And you could also use a bench scraper. Anything with a straight edge. So just know that the outsides might get a little messy and you can wipe that off. I do like the sprinkle of sugar on top because one, it makes a crunchy lid, which is really texturally pleasing, and the rest of the soufflé is so soft and airy. I also think that it helps to get that top layer of batter to adhere it together, so it kind of decreases the chances that your soufflé is going to split at the top and kind of open up as it bakes. To me, the ideal soufflé has a really flat top and straight sides. The head hasn't kind of domed, or split, or opened up.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now we're going to do this rim wiping stage where we're working really quickly with one ramekin at a time. We're going to run a clean thumb around the top inside rim of the ramekin where there's already a natural indentation. We're doing this gently. We're not trying to take the butter off of the ramekin. Can you tell us why we want to, because it's funny, I've done that when I've made soufflés. I don't think I knew why I was doing it.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. So this is going to really decrease the chance of any batter kind of anchoring to the side. And the batter at this stage, if you have properly whipped to your egg whites and gotten them really stiff, the batter is going to hold its shape a little bit. So when you're kind of wiping your finger along the inside of this indentation at the very top, you're going to remove batter and it's not going to be so liquid that it's going to refill in that area. And so this is really going to ensure that your soufflés rise with straight sides and it's okay when you're wiping if you take off some of the butter and sugar, because remember we talked about buttering that area at the top, because as long as you're removing the batter, there's nothing that's going to then stick.
Jessie Sheehan:
So now we're going to bake our soufflés. Our ramekins are going to be on that sheet pan. We're going to space them evenly. They go into this 425 degree oven. We immediately drop the temp to 375. Can you tell us why we drop our temp?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. So with soufflés, the whole point is to create something really light and airy. So what you want at the beginning is that blast of heat, which is going to immediately kind of initiate the expansion of all these air bubbles. And so it's going to kind of kickstart that rise of your soufflé, but you don't want to bake at 425 the whole time, because you will end up almost like burning the outside. One thing with really airy things in the oven is the air is an insulator actually. So the outside of the soufflé, the air is insulating the inside and you want everything to cook evenly because you don't want dry edges of your soufflé and then a liquid, like a runny center. So that lower temp is there to ensure that everything actually bakes at a fairly steady pace and the middle of your soufflé has time to cook before you've really overcooked the outside.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to bake for about 15 or 20 minutes, but tell us a little bit about your best test for doneness.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. I think people actually have different levels of doneness that they prefer their soufflés. I have been served soufflés in restaurants that to me are raw in the middle, like liquid, like runny.
Jessie Sheehan:
Like a chocolate lava cake soufflé.
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Well, it's really wet. I don't want the texture to be wet. I want it to be cooked enough that the egg whites are set. No one wants to eat raw egg white. I am very specific about doneness, and I talk in the book about how it's like cooking a medium rare steak. It is that sort of exact point where you want to take it off the heat. My indicators are that there will be a slight wobble, because you don't want the soufflé to be dry either, because that's not as pleasing a texture. So you want this kind of perfect Goldilocks doneness where the egg whites are cooked, but there's still a lot of moisture in there, but it's not runny.
My other doneness indicators that there'll be that kind of wobble because there is still that moisture in there and there is a kind of elasticity still to the egg whites. But when you press down on the center, at the very top of that sort of beautiful lid that you've created, there should be a tiny bit of springiness, which indicates that those egg whites are cooked. If there's nothing and it feels like liquid underneath, then it's just not cooked yet.
Jessie Sheehan:
When we do remove our soufflés from the oven, as you say, collapse is inevitable but not imminent because properly whipped whites and that small amount of flour will give them some good staying power, and we're going to serve them immediately. The serving suggestion in the book is for creme anglaise and you say to tell your guests to make a hole in the center with a spoon and pour in the anglaise. Can you tell us a little bit about what creme anglaise is for those that don't know?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. Creme anglaise is a very straightforward kind of basic stirred custard. So it is like a mixture of milk, and maybe a little cream, and sugar and eggs, and it's just stirred on the stove over a little bit of heat until the eggs kind of thicken the whole mixture. It is basically melted vanilla ice cream, because creme anglaise is the base of so many things, and one of those things is vanilla ice cream. So if you take one actually hack, which I'm not really a hack person, but one hack that I actually do endorse is if you find a really good brand of vanilla ice cream where the only ingredients are eggs and sugar and milk and cream or whatever, just melt it and then that can be your sauce, and then you don't have to make creme anglaise.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I actually love a hack, so I love that. Just two final soufflé thoughts that I loved. First you say don't make it ahead, and second you say don't double the recipe. Can you just quickly unpack those so people understand?
Claire Saffitz:
Yeah. I mean, making it ahead is just like you're going to be, first of all, by the way, I ate the soufflés long after they were baked and they're still really good. But the experience of a soufflé is to have something served to you warm straight out of the oven where it is at its absolute lightest. And again, it's the idea that it's ethereal, that it's fleeting, so you want to eat it at that exact moment of emerging from the oven. There's just a million make-ahead desserts, and this is not one of them. And the reason I say don't double it is because then you start to get into an unwieldy amount of batter and an unwieldy amount of egg white. Beating 10 egg whites is a lot. And because of how you're going to have to place them in the oven, they're not really going to bake evenly. It's just like, if you're trying to serve dessert to a crowd, don't make soufflé. It's better for a small gathering, not a large crowd. Go sheet cake.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Claire. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.
Claire Saffitz:
Oh, thank you. I love being here. I think I could talk about any recipe with you all day long.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European Style Butter and California Prunes for their support. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of the Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Elizabeth Vote. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. And our editorial assistant is Londyn Crenshaw. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie. And happy baking.