Dianna Daoheung Transcript

 Dianna Daoheung Transcript

Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You are listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of three baking books, including my latest, Snackable Bakes. Each Saturday, I'm hanging out with the sweetest bakers around and taking a deep dive into their signature bakes.

Today I'm talking to Dianna Daoheung, the culinary director and founding baker of Black Seed Bagels, the New York City based artisan bagel shops. When Black Seed first came on the scene, they shook things up with their unique hybrid bagel that combines New York City and Montreal ingredients and techniques. Both cities are fiercely proud of their bagel tradition. So I'm excited to do this deep dive with Dianna to learn more. Dianna shares some bagel shop secrets, from ovens to everything bagel mixes, and also talks through how to make bagels at home. And if you think that sounds hard, which full disclosure, I once did, it's actually not. Stay tuned for my chat with Dianna.

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Now let's check in with today's guest. Dianna, so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie, and to talk bagels and so much more with you. You are the executive chef, head baker, co-founder of Black Seed Bagels. And Black Seed Bagels, for those not in the know, is a New York City chain of artisan bagel shops. They're 10 of them now. Is that right?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. That's crazy to think about. 10.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh. Specializing in a New York City bagel that's made with some baking techniques borrowed from Montreal, which is your signature bagel recipe. So when did you start baking? I think I read that growing up you would help your mom prepare authentic Thai food that you guys were eating in the home, but tell us about how baking came to be.

Dianna Daoheung:
So Thai food isn't really known for baking. So my mom, she was not a baker. Everything was super high heat, on the wok. My dad actually built a wok burner outside of the house because in Florida it's all electric, so it wasn't like enough BTUs. That's like how non baking my mother is. I definitely did not get it from her.

I just started baking because I felt like if I was going to be a chef, savory, sweet, whatever kind of chef, I didn't want to be super adverse to any type of cooking. And I absolutely think baking is cooking. I went to French culinary school and I looked at the tuition. I was like, "Crap, if I'm going to pay that much money, I'm going to do something that I need the most help in." Not saying that I didn't need help in the savory world, but I knew I could pick that along.

But again, since I didn't really naturally bake, I was like, "I'm going to get my degree in that if I'm going to pay this much money." And naturally as I started, I was like, "Okay, cool. I'm like becoming good at baking," because the science behind it, the technique, the following the recipe and being able to adapt your recipe in different conditions. So I just naturally fell in that and as my career grew I was like, "Okay, maybe I am a baker."

Jessie Sheehan:
And I read that you fell in love with the science of bread. And was that sort of in school or was that sort of an impetus for going to school?

Dianna Daoheung:
It was after school actually, because I worked at Mile End. Mile End is a really cute, small Jewish delicatessen in Boerum Hill.

Jessie Sheehan:
Which is in Brooklyn.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, in Brooklyn. Sorry, I forget how national this is.

Jessie Sheehan:
International.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, international, truth. And it just happened to open up at the right when I was getting out of culinary school, and this was 2014, I think. And wow, time goes by so fast when I think about how long ago 2014 is. Yeah, and I just started off as a line cook and the owner was like, "Hey, I want to start making my own rye breads." And I was like, "You know what? I went to school for pastry and bread, why don't I give it a try along with this other baker?" And I just naturally was, sorry, I love the early morning hours. I'm not a night person. So I fell in love with it.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's amazing.

Dianna Daoheung:
The owner, who is one of my great friends, Noah Bernamoff, and my other business partner of Black Seed, Matt Kliegman, just had a beer and was just like, "Hey, you know what's starting to fade in New York City? Bagel shops." They were just like, "You know what? We're both of Jewish descent." One's from New York, one's from Montreal. They're like, "Let's just open up a bagel shop. Let's do it." And they're just like, "But neither one of us are bakers. We need to find a baker" to make this bagel. Noah was like, "You want to be our baker?" And I was like, "Sure, let's do it." And that came Black Seed.

Jessie Sheehan:
Had you ever even made a bagel before?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, so Mile End used to, early on, would schlep from St-Viateur in Montreal, which is this amazing, really old bagel shop. And they would bring down bagels to Mile End. And they're just like, "Let's start making them in house." So I had more of the Montreal style bagel recipe down and had made bagels through Mile End. So I think that's kind of where they're like, "Let's adapt this recipe and make it a Black Seed bagel."

Jessie Sheehan:
As I said earlier, the Black Seed Bagel is this combo of Montreal and New York, and there are some major differences between the Montreal style and the New York style. And I wanted to go through them for the listeners. I thought that would be kind of cool. The first big one that I discovered is the oven. Can you talk about the difference between the Montreal wood fired and the New York City fish oven?

Dianna Daoheung:
Just so you know, I have respect for both ovens, so anything I say is not out of hate, it's all out of love. 'Cause they are such different styles. So let's start with the New York fish oven, which is super classic in almost every bagel shop. It allows you to just really produce a lot of bagels. And what it is, is an oven that naturally rotates. It's like almost a carousel. There's different types, there's different models. So there's ones that are humongous, there's some that don't rotate. However, it's where you can set it in, let it do its thing and forget about it, come back in 20, 30 minutes and it's done. Especially because the natural rotation.

The Montreal style, I like to say it takes a little bit more babysitting, a little bit more watching of the bagels because naturally wood ovens hike and dive in temperature. So it's a lot more understanding the wood that you're putting in. And it's almost built more like a pizza oven. There's no rotation happening. All the rotating of the bagels is by hand. You flip them on the deck, you have amazing long bagel peel. That's so cool to watch the bakers just toss them into the bagel chute. So it's a lot more watching with the baker's eye, understanding each individual oven as opposed to these fish ovens where you set it at 350, it'll stay at 350, it's not going to climb.

Jessie Sheehan:
Is a fish oven convection?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, similar.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I worked in a bakery 5 million years ago, and we just had a huge convection oven. You could bake bagels in a regular old convection oven if you wanted to. But the fish oven is unique to bagels because of the rotating, or are there other things you might bake in there that you wanted to rotate?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, I mean, it's a couple things. It's the rotating, but it's also the material. It's almost like individual stone hearths that are rotating. You know what I mean? So it's a little bit of both. You can absolutely bake out of the convection oven, but you'll find it'll have a different rise to it. It won't be as dense as a bagel should be. You know what I mean? I think it's just the natural heat of the air tends to make bread pop and rise a little bit more, where if it's a natural deck oven, you're not working with so much airflow.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's so interesting. And then the wood fired oven, I read also that because it's kind of pizza oven esque, you might even get some little burn marks on the side of a Black Seed bagel or a Montreal bagel because that's like, that's its vibe. I also loved this, which you said, but I loved this articulation of it. It's a one chamber oven, which is how you describe just that wood oven that has one place where you can put all the bagels at one time.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Which is good and bad. When you're trying to produce in volume, it can definitely be a hindrance, but in my opinion, it just really has the most beautiful bagels. And I like that every bagel has a little difference to it. If you want a bagel that's on the lighter side, you have that option. And if you're more, I love my bagels burnt. I love them dark. And so I'm always just like "Give me the one that's been in Palm Springs for six months."

Jessie Sheehan:
Sunburnt.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Then another big difference that I discovered between Montreal and New York City is boiling in honey versus boiling in the malt, in the brown sugar. There's honey both in a Montreal bagel and in the water, and then the malt and the brown sugar are in the water that you boil a New York City bagel, or they're inside the bagel itself?

Dianna Daoheung:
Some do both. Some do both. Just like the honey. I think it just has to do with the chef's sweetness. If they want it a little bit more sweet, they'll do both. But yeah, the honey definitely makes it a little bit more expensive.

Jessie Sheehan:
And you also mentioned that it's not, it means that your bagels aren't great for vegans because of the honey issue.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then finally, another big difference between Montreal and New York City or New York... Because, should we say New York? Because it's not just the city? Or when people think about a New York bagel, do they think about Albany, you know what I mean? Nothing against Albany.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, you're right. No, I love Albany. I guess it is more city centric I would say.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Interesting. So the doughs are different. So in Montreal, no salt and denser. A New York City bagel, there is salt and it's a little bit lighter. I was going to ask you this later on, but since I'm mentioning it now, what about the process or the ingredients are going to make your Montreal want a little denser, or is it maybe the baking, and your New York City one a little lighter?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, it's all about hydration. Just like bread, right? It's a bread at the end of the day, so it's just all about hydration level. And at Black Seed,, we were really trying to figure out do we want it closer to the Montreal density or the New York density? And I was just like, "You know what? We can just make it a Black Seed bagel. We can just combine what we like in both."

And with Black Seed, we really went in between, but a little closer to New York because at the end of the day, we also want to make sure that it's great for sandwiches. And the Montreal Bagel is a little bit more skinny, a little bit, you know, you put an egg salad on a Montreal bagel, half of it's on your lap. There's no point. Yeah. So I think that was the cool thing about developing the recipe. I could really be like, "Why do either? Let's just make it our own."

Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. If you love, She's My Cherry Pie, I have something else I think you'll love. It's Cherry Bomb Magazine, and it's the most beautiful food magazine out there. Cherry bomb features women and culinary creatives in and around the worlds of food, drink, hospitality, and baking, of course. Each issue is thick and gorgeous and printed on lush paper. There are features, profiles, full page photos and recipes you'll want to make. Cherry Bomb Magazine is printed in Rhode Island at an independent family owned printing press, and they do work for the top artists and art galleries around the world. So you know every issue of Cherry Bomb is top notch. Subscribe now and receive four issues of Cherry Bomb, one each season, delivered direct to your door. To learn more, visit cherrybomb.com/subscribe. Now, back to our guest.
I was thinking about that hydration issue, but I know that when you're kneading the bagel, you don't even need bench flour, which would indicate to me that it's not a super hydrated bagel. Well, that bagel dough maybe always, but definitely yours is not super, super wet. Bench flour, peeps, is when you sprinkle flour over your work surface.

Okay, now I just wanted to talk about your specific bagel. You've described it as a hybrid, and I think now I understand why. It has the softness of interior like New York and then the sweetness and the wood fire from Montreal. And we talked about what makes it a slightly softer bagel, which is the hydration level. So you say that you start with a naturally leavened, fermented glutenous dough, and that's a lot of adjectives, but I wondered, is that different? Do all bagels start with that kind of dough? What does that mean? Does it mean not active yeast or?

Dianna Daoheung:
No, the simplest term to put it is just day old bagel dough. Some people call it mother dough. We always have a couple leftover trays of dough that's either been over proofed or just sitting there and hasn't been used. And I've just found that by adding it just gives it a little bit more yeasty flavor, a little bit more of that beer smell to it, just because it has fermented longer. And it also allows you kind of to lessen the amount of dry active yeast. So we don't do a sourdough, just because we are producing literally on a day like 5,000 bagels. So we had to make sure that our recipe was not as evolving as a sourdough would be. By adding that day old bagel dough, it just elevates the flavor a little bit and lets you do a little bit less dry active yeast.

Jessie Sheehan:
How much is? It just like an eye and a feel and a thing when you are looking at the dough that you made that day, or you want to do it before you make it because you're going to figure out if you want to, how much yeast you're going to use? But you see how many day old... Because that's so cool and interesting. So you see how many day old bagels you've had that have not been boiled, have not been baked, and then you're kind of just pulling one or two apart and throwing it into the dough?

Dianna Daoheung:
Well, as you scale your recipe, because again, we're trying to supply for 10 stores, you kind of absolutely have to be more exact because you're not dealing with a small batch of 12 where you have more control. So what we do about 10% of that recipe, but I'll, in the summer months, I'll actually end up lessening it. I'll go down to 5% because yeast is just naturally more active in the summer. So that science part of really understanding your recipe, the conditions of your room, getting nerdy with it, as I like to say.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. Yeah, I love that. So we talked about this, but you add salt to your bagel just, which is the New York City way. You boil in water and honey for a little bit of sweetness, which is Montreal. This I thought was interesting. The Black Seed bagels are slightly smaller than a typical New York City bagel, I guess half the size of Montreal. But yours are like... Now this may be too like, sometimes when I'm researching I get so in the weeds that I come up with these things and then my guest is like, "What? Who said that?" But I read that yours are about a half ounce bigger than Montreal, but then smaller than New York City. 

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, wow. Somebody got really specific. It's like somebody's taking home our bagels and weighing each an individual. Wow. That's impressive. Now I'm going to have to go back and test this theory.

Yeah, yeah. I like to say it's in between. Because I think, you can eat a New York City bagel for three days, which is great for its value for sure. But Black Seed is kind of that in between where, you know, you could put an egg salad on it. It's not falling through like a Montreal bagel, but again, it's just one meal's consumptions worth.

Jessie Sheehan:
The bakers are firing each batch by hand, as we talked about, with this wood burning oven, Montreal way, to achieve this perfection and crispiness, chewiness, density and deliciousness. Once they're lightly browned and removed from the oven, and you've referred to this before, but I loved this idea and couldn't quite visualize it. They're tossed into a marble chute for cooling, using hand carved wooden peels. Can you describe the chute?

Dianna Daoheung:
The chute is just a long rectangular piece. We kind of shooed away from the marble 'cause it does get expensive. So as we scaled, we just went to plain like baker's benches, but our original location in Elizabeth Street, it was our first baby. So we kind of went all out and we just... I want to say it's like six feet long. And as the bagels are shimming it out, it just is a natural length where the bagels just rainbow into the chute. It's a great scene too. And when you go to St-Viateur in Montreal, theirs is even longer. And it's just insane to see how they can do it.

Jessie Sheehan:
And that, the process of going down the chute is what cools the bagels before they're sold? Is that the idea?

Dianna Daoheung:
Not really.

Jessie Sheehan:
Or is it more just a way to transfer them?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, it's just a way to catch them from the peel. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I also read this that I thought was sort of interesting, that the Black Seed bagel now is closer to what a bagel in New York City used to be in terms of its diminutive size rather than, I think this might be your word or somebody else's, but that now they tend to be a bit bloated, which you've very nicely described. And a Black Seed bagel doesn't have an insane amount of cream cheese. Is that right? That the size is actually what bagels would've been when?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. Well I think they might have even been even smaller, like biscuit size. I love bagel history. Especially since it wasn't a part of my heritage, Thais aren't known for their bagels. I made it a point to research the history of it. 'Cause I was just like, "If I'm going to bake something that's so New York centric I want to pay homage to it."

So once I started researching, I was like, "Oh, it's interesting that it wasn't meant to be a sandwich or even with the cream cheese in the middle." It was street food. It was more like a pretzel and people would just buy it and tear it apart, and that's how they would eat it. It wasn't in this sandwich realm that we know of it with cream cheese and a bunch of lox and deliciousness. Now I'm getting hungry.

Jessie Sheehan:
I know. Me too. And you know what, I just want to say one thing about size. I'm not proud of this, but I just love jumbo. Like everything. I want my cookies jumbo and my cupcakes jumbo. I want too much frosting. I know it's not a popular opinion. And so I do love a big bagel, but I have to say there is something so... Because obviously I've had Black Seed bagels in my lifetime, there is something nice about one that doesn't feel quite as overwhelming when you eat it.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah. It's just like a one meal and done, not a five meal and done.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, exactly. Not like you eat half for lunch, or for breakfast and you might have a half for lunch. Give your husband or your partner a bite.

Dianna Daoheung:
When I was a line cook, I would, 'cause line cooks really make no money, I would literally buy one bacon, egg and cheese and I would eat it cold but save half of it for dinner because it was like five bucks.

Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Okay. So now I want to do this deep dive into making a Black Seed bagel. So first things first, in the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook. And I guess I have to ask right away, and I think I know the answer, but it'd be pretty hard to make a bagel dough with a hand mixer.

Dianna Daoheung:
You can, but I wouldn't recommend it. 'Cause it is a denser dough. That's what people have to keep in mind. It's not going to be as liquidy as like a brioche or a challah. Not that those are super liquidy, but yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I understand. So we've got our dough hook, but the first things first. In the bowl, we're going to whisk, just by hand, we're going to whisk our active dry yeast, our honey and our body temperature water. First, is there a whisk at home that you recommend or that you like or even one that you use in the kitchen at work?

Dianna Daoheung:
I use this one that, it's like medium size. It's so funny because my husband always makes fun of actually, he's like, "Why don't you use a bigger one?" And I can't. I found it just as this random flea market. But I'm also one of those bakers that I'm like, just use what you got. If you just got a fork, use a fork.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. I'm constantly writing recipes where I'm like, "And then you grab your fork." Because sometimes it is just the best tool.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. And we live in New York City. We don't have apartments where we can store all these things, so.

Jessie Sheehan:
Right. 100%. So we're adding this active dry yeast. I had two questions. One, is instant okay? And second, is there a brand that you like?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, instant is great. You don't have to get technical with it. The recipe's the same and it's easier to control. I think just whatever brand that's easiest for you to find. Especially since we are a podcast that's international, I don't want to make it difficult.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Just a note for listeners, in terms of the instant yeast, what I personally like about Instant yeast is because you don't need to proof it in any temperature, in water of a particular temperature or a liquid of a particular temperature, instant is nice because you just whisk in with the dry, add the amount of liquid that the recipe calls for. Done and done.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And the honey is obviously this Montreal edition. Is there a brand of honey that either you use when you're in the bakery or in the shop or that you like at home?

Dianna Daoheung:
There's a awesome smokehouse in the Catskills called Catsmill, and they actually have a neighboring bee farmer. So the bee farmer produces our honey, which is amazing because how spoiled are we? So we really stick with them. But at home I love going to the farmer's market. So I think whatever you can find in your local farmer's market is awesome.

Jessie Sheehan:
Because honey, it can be so flavorful and come in different flavors.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
It will really flavor your bagel?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. If you can find a more neutral honey that's not as heavy and a floral, but I think there's something fun about adding different notes to your bagel, your pizza dough. Things. Just experiment. Have fun.

Jessie Sheehan:
I totally agree. And then we need some body temperature water, and I think you have a great way of explaining how we know when something's body temperature. Can you tell us?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. Again, I try to be as practical as possible. So not everybody has a thermometer to check. So I tell people, I'm like, "Just put your finger into the water. If you don't feel anything and you're just like, I don't even know if my finger's in the water, that's body temperature. And if it's a little warmer, then you go up a couple degrees."

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And you let that stand. So you've whisked all of those ingredients together. You're just going to let them stand for about five minutes, enough to get that yeast working in that room temp water. Now we're going to add some bread flour. I think I read this, but is it King Arthur that you guys like?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Or that you like to use at home?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, King Arthur's just awesome because it's not super expensive flower, but it's great. You can find it at every single grocery store now. It's always just done us right and made the recipe the same every time. So.

Jessie Sheehan:
Amazing, yeah. Then we're going to add a little bit of oil. Is that a vegetable oil and is that a particular brand?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, we use vegetable oil. And again, since we're making so many bagels, we go with what our vendor supplies us. But the oil just lends to a little moisture, especially in such a non hydrated dough. If you skip it, you'll find that the bagel will be a lot drier, not last as long.

Jessie Sheehan:
Forgive my ignorance, but do most bagels have a little bit of oil? It's some fat in them?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly. Some fat in them.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. So we have a little bit of oil. This one was interesting to me. So there's malt powder, and it's non diastatic. King Arthur brand?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And can you tell me what non diastatic means?

Dianna Daoheung:
I wish I could get that nerdy. I've looked this up 80 million times and I should have looked up before this.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, don't worry.

Dianna Daoheung:
But I do know just by adding that malt, it definitely helps with the color, makes it a little bit more caramel. And it does help with the structure of the bagel. I found when I omitted it, it just didn't have a nicer round shape. It came a little bit more flat. I think it's because King Arthur isn't bromated. So it just almost acts as a natural bromation process by like-

Jessie Sheehan:
I'm embarrassed, what is bromated?

Dianna Daoheung:
Bromated is when you add a specific substance that just helps bread leaven a little bit better and shape a little bit better, so a lot of... And you'll find it less and less in more modern flour. So a lot of great brands like King Arthur don't do it anymore, but I think some of the cheaper, lower quality do it just because their wheat isn't as great.

Jessie Sheehan:
And does the malt powder add a little bit of flavor as well, or?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
So it's a little bit of color, a little bit of structure and a little bit of flavor. I loved this. I thought this was a great note for all bread baking, but you said to add the salt last. Will you tell us, why should the salt be the last ingredient that goes in now?

Dianna Daoheung:
Because it's just a natural bacteria killer. So you use salt for curing because it just helps take that hydration out and kill any bacteria. So it's going to do the same thing to your yeast. Your yeast is a bacteria at the end of the day, so you kind of want to make sure those are as separated as possible.

Jessie Sheehan:
So we've now created this very glutenous dough, which basically translates into a chewy bagel once we're done. Now we're going to knead, and there're kind of two different ways or two different processes that I've read about that you guys do. So you could knead on low speed for about 10 minutes in your stand mixer with your hook, until the dough can pull a window. Can you tell us about pulling a window?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. And I'm pretty sure almost every bread baker uses it, but you're just checking that the gluten structure is there, because the more you mix the flour, the more gluten is built. And what will happen is if you don't pull a window and you go to bake it, you'll find that your bread product will be flatter because it just doesn't have any structure to hold all the proteins together, essentially. And the point of pulling that window is to really see, "Okay, my gluten structure has formed, so this will hold the shape of however I shape it."

Jessie Sheehan:
So is it like you're taking a piece of the dough, let's say, and you're pulling it apart with your fingers to see if you can kind of see through the dough that you just?

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
That you just yanked apart. And there's a great video, peeps, if you want to see Dianna in action, which I loved and watched. And I know when you're pulling a window and showing us how to make bagels in this video, you're also showing us that you're able to pick up all the dough out of the bowl and it doesn't break apart. You're holding the entire amount of dough pulling a window at the top. And you said the fact that it doesn't fall back onto the counter is good, because that shows that gluten is really, the strands are coming together. So I thought that was interesting.

Dianna Daoheung:
Especially with bagel dough because again, what gives that chewiness to bagel dough is all about the glutens.

Jessie Sheehan:
So if I pulled a window and it wasn't ready, what would happen? It would tear or I wouldn't be able to see through it?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly. It would tear before you even got to form any kind of thinness to your dough. And that just means you just need to work it a little bit more.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, a little bit more. Okay. So that was one way of kneading, is this 10 minutes in the stand mixer, we pull a window. There's something funny about pull a window. I don't know. Every time I say it, I can't exactly come put my finger on what it sounds like to me, but every time I say it I kind of want to laugh. But anyway, another way of doing this, we would just mix the dough until it was kind of shaggy in the stand mixer. And then we would start to need by hand. When do you use one versus the other?

Dianna Daoheung:
It's really for if you have a lower grade at home mixer, because what it is is, you'll find that you'll come to a point as you're mixing, you're going to hear your mixer going... basically, "Hey, I'm working really hard." And at that point you want to stop. And if you see your dough's still shaggy, not formed, that's when you want to pop it on the counter and do it by hand because the last thing I want you to do is break your equipment.

Jessie Sheehan:
And are you kneading by hand for about 10 minutes or?

Dianna Daoheung:
Until it forms. It's obviously the speed of which the individual kneads. So if you're a pro baker, you're probably going to spend less time needing because you just can work faster. So it's really until the dough is brought together and you're able to form that window, which for some people might take 15, 20 minutes.

Jessie Sheehan:
And the dough, I assume gets smooth as you do that on the outside.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
There's no bench flour at this point. You shouldn't need any because this is not a super hydrated dough.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Which means it's not very sticky. Essentially why we often are using flour, because things are sticky. Now we're going to rest the dough for about 20 minutes once we can pull a window, and then we wait 20 minutes and then we begin to, I guess, in a covered, oiled bowl, which is sort of standard for bread baking. And do you kind of cover with a dish towel or plastic wrap?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, I like to do a recycled bag, if I can, just because for some reason my bodega still won't stop giving me plastic bags-

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my god.

Dianna Daoheung:
Even though I'm like, "No plastic bag." And I'm like, "Okay."

Jessie Sheehan:
"I'll carry everything."

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly. And they still gave it to me. I'm like, "All right, I'll take it."

Jessie Sheehan:
That's actually a great use with bread. I never thought of using one of those bags that you're like trying not to have, but end up having, over your dough. I love that. So we're resting 20 minutes in this covered, oiled bowl. Please use your recycled plastic bags if you have them. Then you're going to either lightly oil a baking sheet or you're going to use parchment on a baking sheet, and that's where you're going to portion out your bagels. Do you have a preference? Is there one way you do it that you would do it at home and one way you would do it at work?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, I mean, either way you want to make sure, even if you use parchment, to lightly oil it just because it will, as it proofs, it'll kind of stick a little to the parchment.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, good to know.

Dianna Daoheung:
I just portion it into four-and-a-half ounce balls, sometimes five, depending on if you want a bigger one or baby sized bagels. But no, I mean at work now that we do produce so many bagels, we do have an amazing bagel shaper.

Jessie Sheehan:
What's a bagel shaper?

Dianna Daoheung:
It's amazing. You have to come and see it.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, I'm coming. I'm coming.

Dianna Daoheung:
Especially since you haven't made a bagel before. But it's crazy. It's just basically you mix the dough, and our amazing dough makers just shape it into a log and then you pop it on top and it naturally slices the right portion and then shapes it into a perfect bagel shape. We used to do everything by hand. But New Yorkers love bagels and we couldn't keep up with the demand, so we're like, "Okay, we need to figure out ways to be more efficient." And this bagel maker just saved our lives.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's incredible. I love that. That makes sense, because I'm, I'm going to go through how you actually shape it, and it's not terribly labor intensive, but it's not nothing.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, it's not nothing.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, and just, is there a baking sheet at home that you like to use, like a particular brand?

Dianna Daoheung:
I like Great Jones ones. They're cool, they're colorful, and they actually really bake beautiful products.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that's great to know. I love those too. I think I have a big green one and then a big, I think their new color's called raspberry.

Dianna Daoheung:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I love that one too.

Jessie Sheehan:
You're portioning the dough around four, four-and-a-half ounce or really this, I guess this is another shout out for peeps who are making bagels at home. You probably want to have a scale.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. I mean, you know what though, again, don't stress about it, just make them all even sized. You can eyeball it. If you're making it for yourself, who cares?

Jessie Sheehan:
I feel you. There are some perfectionists in there. Probably listening. They might not feel that way. I'm kind of one, but kind of not. So yes,

Dianna Daoheung:
I mean if you open up a bagel shop, yes. Get a scale, but if you're at home, don't stress.

Jessie Sheehan:
So you're portioning into these balls. You're placing them on the prepared sheet that has a little bit of oil so that they don't stick. And then you cover the sheet loosely with plastic wrap or something, well probably plastic wrap, I was going to say. I'm not sure you'll be stretching your plastic bags from the bodega over your sheet pan. And then refrigerate overnight.

Dianna Daoheung:
Mm-hmm.

Jessie Sheehan:
I read this, at Black Seed, you might let that cold ferment in the fridge be about 14 hours-

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
... for, to enhance flavor and texture.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. At a minimum we do 14 hours. There's points that we'll do 24 hours, but it just really lends to the flavor. It lets the yeast do its thing. And we also found that the texture difference is major. You could totally, if you were in a rush, leave it on your countertop, let it proof for two to three hours and it would totally be a bagel and it'd be fine and delicious I'm sure. But the resting it overnight definitely gives a lot more oomph to the flavor.

Jessie Sheehan:
And makes it chewier or more just actually, that's not a flavor, chewy, is it? Something different. Sorry, peeps. But makes it just have more of that like a bagel tang or whatever.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, I mean if anything, I think it helps it be more on the New York side of things and lets it have a softer interior as opposed to, I think most Montreal bagels are actually that dough is made that day and used that day.

Jessie Sheehan:
Interesting. That contributes to its density.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's so interesting. So the next day you bring your balls to room temp, maybe for 30 minutes. You line two baking sheets with parchment paper. We're not oiling at this stage when we're shaping?

Dianna Daoheung:
No, 'cause it might already have enough oil from the parchment, yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then we're preheating our oven to...

Dianna Daoheung:
I mean, depends how your oven works, but I kind of like that 425 because again, I like my bagels a little bit more crisp on the outside and darker.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I've quoted her a few times I feel like on the podcast at this point, but I once heard Carla Hall say that there is flavor in the brown, and she was talking about pie crust, but I'm sorry, it really applies to everything, just what you're saying about a bagel.

Dianna Daoheung:
I agree. Yeah. All breads I think should be golden brown.

Jessie Sheehan:
Me too.

Dianna Daoheung:
Like they just came back from a trip to Hawaii.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yep. So this is kind of fun. You take your bagel balls and you want to push down on them to get out the pockets of air that were formed by the yeast, because you kind of want that density and not the airiness that the yeast has created at this point.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
So a little press down. And then countertop again, no bench flower. We don't need it. You're rolling each ball into a 12-inch long strand, making them uniform. And I loved this note. You say to use a wide hand to get sort of, there's more surface area of your hand on the strand. Can you explain that?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, because you got to remember, you're fighting against the gluten. So as you're kind of rolling that rope, you'll notice that it'll naturally shrink on you. So you're going to roll, it'll shrink a little bit. You're going to roll a little bit more. And that's going to happen too when you create the ring of the bagel. You can totally use a non-wide hand, but you're going to do more work. You know what I mean? A wide hand just creates more surface areas. So it allows your bagel to have more surface area to cling together.

Jessie Sheehan:
Cool. Then you're going to pinch together the ends, create a seam. And then I wish people could see this because I got to see it in your video, but you're rolling your hand. Your hand is kind of inside of the O, and you're rolling your hand. You're rolling it in such a way that each side of that O ends up underneath your hand. Is that correct?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. I call it like a wrist flick almost. So you're rotating with your wrist. After you do it so many times it's one of those actions that you're like, "I can't actually describe it cause it's so natural now."

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I actually wrote down, "snapping wrists." So that is, even though, I feel like there's so many things in baking and many, maybe in anything in which dexterity is necessary and you're using your hands, but where you can't even describe what you're doing. You're just, sometimes I feel like that even when I'm describing how to crimp a pie dough. You know what you do instinctually, but you're like, "How do I describe it? The finger's in between the other two." So I get it. But snapping wrist I think is helpful.

Dianna Daoheung:
I mean that's what makes YouTube so crazy and such a educational tool now. It's like you don't have to read a book and mean like, "What does that mean?" Now that people just go on YouTube and...

Jessie Sheehan:
Right. Because even an illustration in a cookbook that showed your hand, you wouldn't really understand until you watch you do it. So then you let your shaped bagels rest for about five minutes and you say that the whole will shrink, not only now while it rests, but also when it bakes. But there was actually, there was a whole thing that I read about. Is there a difference in the size of the hole in a New York City bagel and a Montreal bagel?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Remind me, what's the difference?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, we like to say New York bagels look like they just have a belly button. And the Montreal bagel actually, and some may argue that it's too big because again, that whole egg salad falling on your lap thing is because of that natural hole. So we try to do one in between. But the thing about the hole is, it just creates a more even bake. So even the center of the bagel on a Montreal bagel kind of has a similar texture to it as the outside. But in a New York bagel, when you get to center, it's still soft. It's like still...

Jessie Sheehan:
I just got to pause and give you peeps props for the genius that is combining these two bagels.

Dianna Daoheung:
Right? Like why not?

Jessie Sheehan:
I know, it's brilliant. I love the idea of taking this iconic baked good and then making something completely new from it by using two very different techniques. So next is the boiling, which is necessary for bagels.

Dianna Daoheung:
Absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
You can't just bake them at this point. The boiling gives bagels their chew, some crispiness on the outside, shine. So you're bringing honey and water to a boil in a large sauce pan. Honey is going to give it caramelization at this point?

Dianna Daoheung:
Mm-hmm. And the shine.

Jessie Sheehan:
You don't want to rapid boil because that would almost activate the yeast too much at this point.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
You kind of want the bagel to actually have its baker's spring in the oven. So you don't want any spring happening when you're boiling.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. I mean a little spring will definitely happen because again, that yeast will, what I like to say like, naturally farts. That's like what creates the rise. So you'll definitely see a little bit of an increase in size in your bagels when you boil it, but you don't want to lose all the activity. So you're basically trying to get that sweet point of where the yeast is on its last breath, and then you want to get it in the oven.

Jessie Sheehan:
Into the oven. And I guess you bring it to a boil and then reduce to a simmer, or you-

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. So you reduce heat, maintain a simmer, working in batches of three to four at a time. You're dropping your bagels into the water two to four minutes?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, actually it...

Jessie Sheehan:
It depends.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, it depends. It depends where you live at. One of my good friends, Zoe, she's a bagel heir herself. She went and did this bagel recipe in Mexico, and she found that the boil time varied as well just because of the altitude of where she was doing this bagel recipe. So I hesitate often by saying that people should really abide by these recipes because bread is a live active thing and it's going to act different if you're in Denver, or versus New York.

Jessie Sheehan:
I know you've said that once the yeast is activated, the bagels float to the top.

Dianna Daoheung:
Right.

Jessie Sheehan:
Is that when we know they're done? Like what are-

Dianna Daoheung:
No. Yeah. So it is about two minutes, and it should feel like a dumpling where when you touch it, your finger's not creating a huge indentation. Well, you'll get a little spring back.

Jessie Sheehan:
Then it's time to pop them out of the water.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Gotcha. You're using a slotted spoon. Is there a brand that you like or a type?

Dianna Daoheung:
No. We like, actually, since we're dealing with the big kettle at Black Seed, we use what we call a spider. It's funny 'cause I actually don't even know if that's it's real technical name, but it just basically looks like a spider web. And it's this huge ladle that you can literally get 12 bagels out at one time.

Jessie Sheehan:
It's almost like a sieve.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
But in a-

Dianna Daoheung:
But flat.

Jessie Sheehan:
But flat and thicker. The wire is-

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
So you grab your slotted spoon or your spider, and you transfer the bagels to prepared baking sheets and sprinkle with toppings at this point. And I think this is right, the way you guys do bagels is you do both sides of the bagel?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jessie Sheehan:
And the New York way is just one side?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
So we have sesame seeds, poppy seeds, everything bagel spice. You kind of place your toppings in a bowl is probably the easiest way. And then sort of turn your bagel. Are we in a rush at this point? Are we trying to move quickly? to get them into the oven?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, you should, absolutely. Just because again, you don't want to lose that last leg of the yeast activity.

Jessie Sheehan:
And there was also a cool little tip, trick, when you're using everything mix about rehydrating it so you don't burn the garlic. Can you tell the folks about putting the everything bagel mix on a bagel?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. So garlic naturally burns super quickly, super fast. And when we were testing our recipe, I was like, "Wait a minute, why is this happening?" I was like, "Duh, because there's no water in it to begin with." So that everything mix that you get from Trader Joe's is dehydrated onion, dehydrated garlic. So what we do at Black Seed is we kind of soak it, kind of equal amounts of mix to water and we let it soak overnight. So then when you go do put it in the oven, it's not going to blacken and darken and get bitter right away.

Jessie Sheehan:
I love that. And just because I'm curious, so does this mix absorb the water?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
So there's no more water left, it's just almost like damp everything mix in the morning?

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly. Yeah.

Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, love. I love that. And I think somebody called it, maybe you, a bagel shop secret. So I'm always game for a bagel shop secret.

Dianna Daoheung:
It's not a secret anymore, I guess.

Jessie Sheehan:
No, sorry. We now told everyone. So we're going to bake the bagels at 425 until slightly brown, shiny, firm. 10 to 12 minutes?

Dianna Daoheung:
It's normally about 20, 20 minutes.

Jessie Sheehan:
20. Okay. Yeah. 10 to 12 seems fast. And turning them halfway through.

Dianna Daoheung:
Exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Flipping them. And again, when you guys are doing it or when it's done in the kind of Montreal style with a wood burning stove, someone is actively turning them.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly. They're on these long wooden planks and once they get a little lightly brown, we'll flip them onto the deck. And that's why when you make them at home, you won't get the crispness that you get at an actual bagel shop. When you do it in a convection oven, it doesn't get that same heat that a hearth will get you.

Jessie Sheehan:
And then you remove them to a cooling rack. And I love this, you said "Get into them while they're still hot." Which one should, I could not agree with you more. And I thought this was also interesting, which I never thought about, but bread you really want it to rest before you cut into it, which is hard because warm bread with butter is so delicious. But it's interesting that with a bagel, I guess it's because of the density, it doesn't matter. You can slice that baby right away.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. I mean there's some bagel bakers that might say, give it a little rest. But I'm just like you, I kind of like that.

Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. I don't mind if I lose a little spring and then if it gets a little pressed down, it's still so delicious. I just wanted to finish up with just telling us some of the bagel flavors that you've got it Black Seed, also about some of the bagel combos like AB and J and BEC, and the pizza bagels. So could you tell us a little bit about the menu?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. We actually, as far as our amount of flavors in bagels, we tried to be pretty traditional. You'll never see us have a rainbow bagel, an Oreo bagel. Again, not hating on them, there's a time and place for it. But at Black Seed we kind of do just stick to traditional everything. Sesame, pretzel salt, poppy, there's so many now. Pumpernickel, pumpernickel everything, multi-grain and multi everything. And then as far as the combinations, our menu used to be way bigger, at least 50% bigger. But after COVID, we're just like, "Let's just be smart about everything."

Because when you look at our product mix, we're just like, "Oh, well only 20% of people got these odder, stranger things." But we do try to add some culinary seasonal things like ramp cream cheese, things like that. But there are some staples like the almond butter and jam that you know, is great.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's the A, B and J.

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, exactly.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And tell us a little bit about the pizza bagel?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah, so it came about because we were just literally saying, "We need more lunch business. What can we do that's savory, that's easy, that's warm?" And we're New York City, so we're like, "Let's just do a pizza bagel."

Jessie Sheehan:
I love it. And it's like a homemade tomato sauce and then some mozzarella cheese, or?

Dianna Daoheung:
Yeah. And I am a true believer of not pre-cooking our tomato sauce, so I try to make it super fresh, fresh garlic. It's really good.

Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, that sounds amazing. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for chatting with me today, Dianna. And I just want to say that you are my cherry pie.

Dianna Daoheung:
Oh, thank you.

Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Plugra Premium European style butter for their support. Don't forget to subscribe to She's My Cherry Pie on your favorite podcast platform, and tell your baking buddies about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network and is recorded at CityVox Studio in Manhattan. Our producers are Kerry Diamond and Catherine Baker, and our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.