Dishing on Julia - Episode 4
The Modern Marriage of Julia and Paul Child
David Hyde Pierce:
He was a crazy mix of personalities. He was very charming, but still a bonne vivant. He loved life, he loved women, and he loved Julia.
Kerry Diamond:
That is David Hyde Pierce and we are talking about Paul Child. The character that David brings to life in the most beautiful way on Julia. On this episode we are going to learn more about Paul and the very modern marriage of Paul and Julia Child. At a time where men were expected to be the breadwinners, Paul put his time and creative energy behind supporting his wife who was on the cusp of becoming a household name. What made him such a supportive spouse? We're going to find out.
Welcome to Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast of Julia, the HBO Max original series inspired by the life of Julia Child. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, and each week I'll recap a new episode of Julia, and chat with special guests about the making of the show and the cultural impact of our culinary icon. I'll be checking in with the delightful David Hyde Pierce, who will share what drew him to the role of Paul Child. Then, author and journalist Alex Prud'homme stops by to talk about Paul, who happened to be his Grand-uncle. Alex is quite the Julia and Paul expert, having co-written Julia's classic memoir, My Life in France. A must-read for any Julia fan.
Russ Morash:
Oh, come on, come on. What is this? A tea party? We have an episode to tech.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay, okay. Teacups down, coffee cups, whatever you're drinking. Let's dish on the latest episode, the Petits Four episode. Albert Duhamel's worst fears have been realized. He has been upstaged by a quiche. A good review for the French chef and the local paper sets him off.
Alex Duhamel:
Now, this station has a higher mandate to elevate and educate the public.
Hunter Fox:
Maybe Julia is what we've been missing.
Alex Duhamel:
Julia wouldn't have a show. If she weren't my guest first. I made that woman.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia and Alice Naman might have some thoughts on that. Julia walks into her kitchen where trays of petits fours for her show are awaiting some final decoration. The phone rings, and it's a fan asking Julia for advice. Julia was listed in the local phone book even when she was famous. The call volume picked up significantly on Thanksgiving.
Julia Child:
Well, I have no idea who that was. Some woman who watched the Coq Au Vin episode out Grand Marnier in her stock.
Paul Child:
Fourth call this week. I suppose people really do have televisions. Should we unlist our number?
Julia Child:
Well, how else will they get in touch?
Kerry Diamond:
Julia wants to be helpful. But as we'll learn, the attention is starting to unnerve her a bit. Alice meanwhile, is proving to be the best business mind over at WGBH. She has decided other public TV stations should air The French Chef, and pay for the privilege. She starts dialing for dollars and Albert catches wind.
Alex Duhamel:
Did I just hear you say The French Chef?
Alice Naman:
I said my friend Seth, he's on the phone. You don't know him.
Alex Duhamel:
Hang up.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia arrives on set with the petits fours. Everyone is excited about the little desserts, and the review of the show. With a few exceptions. WGBH boss Hunter Fox pulls Julia aside. He proceeds to gaslight her over the review in the newspaper.
Hunter Fox:
Just one thing. Next time, make sure to highlight WGBH as a whole. Try and remember the hand that feeds you.
Julia Child:
Oh no, no, no. Nobody spoke to me. I didn't even know about the article until a moment ago.
Hunter Fox:
Sure, of course. But next time you'll have to remember you're part of a team. Implying our other shows are boring, it's insulting, Julia.
Julia Child:
Yes, of course Hunter, but there can't be a next time if there wasn't a first time.
Kerry Diamond:
It gets worse. Hunter tells Julia to apologize to Albert. Julia is baffled and a bit miffed, but once again turns to her editor, Judith Jones, to cook up a little scheme. Could Judith get one of her famous authors to appear on Albert's show?
Judith Jones:
You need a distract a jealous man-child with a shiny object favor?
Julia Child:
Oh Judith, you are wicked. But by George, I think you've got it.
Kerry Diamond:
Next, we're at the pre-opening party for Paul's big show at a local art gallery. The usually composed Paul is nervous.
Paul Child:
I'm afraid my art is less compelling than the charcuterie board.
Kerry Diamond:
The event is well attended by local luminaries, including playwright Thornton Wilder, and poet Sylvia Plath. Sylvia Plath by the way, was born in Boston and like Julia, attended Smith College. And Thornton, his play Old Town debuted in Boston. Paul thanks his muse, Julia, and everyone celebrates his first sale of a painting. Back home, Paul and Julia dance. He is elated.
Paul Child:
I felt like a debutant at her coming out party.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia takes a little break from WGBH and heads to her alma mater, Smith College, one of the famous seven sister schools. Julia graduated from Smith in 1934, and the school even celebrates a Julia Child day. She donated her house in Cambridge to the college. The kitchen, as many of you know, went to the Smithsonian. She's a featured speaker, and reconnects with some chums.
Julia Child:
I'm just tickled pink to be here with you ladies.
Hazel:
Well, aren't you the girl who almost set the dorms on fire every time she made toast?
Julia Child:
Thank you, Hazel. It takes some of us years of practice to perfect a grilled cheese sandwich.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia away, it's up to Avis to keep a dejected Paul company at the art gallery. He's only sold a few pieces.
Paul Child:
I feel like an old fool.
Avis DeVoto:
No one thinks you're old. This is what you wanted. The work is great, just enjoy the ride.
Paul Child:
You know, the only painting Van Gogh ever sold was to his brother when he was 30.
Avis DeVoto:
See? Van Gogh never gave up.
Paul Child:
Oh, he did actually.
Kerry Diamond:
Julia has an awkward walk across campus with Iris, one of her Smith college sisters. Iris credits her sexual awakening to a night of skinny dipping and drinking gin with Julia, who has no recollection of the evening. Or has Julia repressed it?
Julia Child:
A trip down memory lane is often better off a stroll than a full-blown hike.
Kerry Diamond:
Albert scores a small victory, John Updike is coming on his show. But he has no idea Judith, via Julia, has orchestrated this little coup. Albert almost blows the interview while Alice scores her first sale, to the public television station in San Francisco. Back at the Child's home, Paul and Julia have a heart to heart. Paul tells Julia he realizes he'll never be a great artist, Julia is the artist in the family he says, and he is here to support her. And Julia for her part, reveals that the attention she's garnering for The French Chef might be a little too much.
Julia Child:
I'm scared, Paul. It really isn't just a jealousy, the adoration can be hard too.
Paul Child:
You're teaching Americans how to taste life and they're listening. That's goddamn huge.
Julia Child:
Well, maybe too huge. For me, at least.
Kerry Diamond:
Will Julia learned to live with her newfound fame? Will Paul be comfortable in his new role, and will Albert finally calm down? We'll find out more next week. But now, let's chat with our first guest. David Hyde Pierce, welcome to Dishing on Julia.
David Hyde Pierce:
Thank you, I'm so glad to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so curious, what attracted you to this project?
David Hyde Pierce:
The script, the pilot script was so well written. I didn't know that much about Paul Child. And so, just to get a glimpse of him from that, I found him so fascinating. And their relationship, the deep, loving relationship between Julia and Paul drew me in. So, I wanted to be part of it.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you know about Julia Child prior to this?
David Hyde Pierce:
As a kid, I have vague memories of seeing her on TV. I don't know, my mom was a good cook, I don't know how much she would've watched Julia. But she was certainly around on the airwaves. And maybe because I was watching kids stuff on PBS, that I would catch glimpses of her. And then by the time Dan Aykroyd was doing his parody on Saturday Night Live, I certainly knew who she was, so I knew who he was parodying. So, always aware of her because she was just such a part of American culture for so long, and then really getting to know her on this show.
Kerry Diamond:
Paul is someone we didn't know as well. Tell us who Paul Child is.
David Hyde Pierce:
Oh, dear Paul. I just love this man. He's an extraordinary person. He was so talented in so many directions. He was a musician, he played the violin, he had a twin brother who played the cello. And when he was a little boy, his twin brother was playing with him and somehow had a sewing needle, and inadvertently stuck it in Paul's eye. And he was blind in one eye. He therefore then went on to become an artist, and a painter, and a very skillful drawer. And he taught art.
He also, he and his brother both studied judo. Paul ended up being a black belt in judo. He learned how to make furniture, he repaired stained glass in cathedrals in France. He was, as a young man traveled on ships up and down East coast, and through the Panama Canal. He worked in LA doing set design paintings and demonstrating furniture in shop windows. And then he went what was the CIA, the OSS of World War II, putting all his talents to use in the war effort, which is where he met Julia. So, it's just a crazy mix of things. And also he was a crazy mix of personalities. He was very charming, but still a bon vivant. He loved life, he loved women, and he loved Julia.
Kerry Diamond:
You have played so many amazing characters over the years. Is there any difference in how you approach portraying a real person versus a fictional character?
David Hyde Pierce:
I guess I would say no. Because even playing a fictional character, well for example, I did a production of Hello, Dolly. And I played Horace Vandergelder, who's a made up person from a play.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, that's not a true story?
David Hyde Pierce:
I'm sorry. It's like Santa Claus, I hate doing this to people. But what I did was I did a lot of research on what a Yonkers dialect at the turn of century would be, what the history of the Dutch in New York was. All this stuff, just because I always feel like you never know. You never know what's going to spark something, or influence a choice that you make. And same thing now with playing Paul, there's a lot of research I do, and have done and will continue to do. But the writers are creating a show which is based in reality, it's not a documentary. So, I don't do that stuff to make sure everything's accurate. I do it to discover him, and make sure I do justice to him, because I think he's incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about episode four. There are all those amazing moments in the art gallery. What were some favorite moments of yours?
David Hyde Pierce:
I think I have two favorite moments from that. This is an episode where Paul is given the opportunity to actually exhibit his art, his paintings and his photographs. And it's a huge opportunity for him. Julia can't be there for the opening, she's going to a college reunion. And on the actual night of the opening, they've had a preview where all these people showed up, and celebrities and it just seemed fantastic. But on the actual opening, there aren't many people there, not a lot of interest. And their friend Avis, played by Bebe Neuwirth is with him in the gallery. And kind of uncharacteristically, their relationship has been a little bit thorny through most of their show, I think they share... They may be a little bit jealous of each other's relationship with Julia. And she is uncharacteristically kind and supportive of him. And I think that's really beautiful, both in the writing, and especially in the way Bebe played it. And then I love the subsequent scene when Julia has returned from her college reunion, and is sitting with Paul in the-
Julia has returned from her college reunion and is sitting with Paul in the gallery, looking at the work, and each talking about where they are heading in life. I think it's a really beautifully written moment between these two people who are at a deeply important transition point in each of their lives, each going in different directions, but holding onto each other as they go.
Kerry Diamond:
There's so many poignant moments in this episode. It's a beautiful episode. Were there any small details that you used to bring the character of Paul to life?
David Hyde Pierce:
Well, he had those glasses. Over the years he wore different glasses, but prominently in this period, he had these big black glasses. So made sure I wore those. John, our costume designer went wild with ascots. He's like the writers. You take the reality that you see in the photos, but then you use your creative imagination. And he created a whole world of ascots.
Kerry Diamond:
You did wear a lot of ascots.
David Hyde Pierce:
A lot of ascots.
Kerry Diamond:
In this series.
David Hyde Pierce:
Safe to say more than I have ever worn in my life, which is zero. I feel like with those clothes, with all the cardigans and the ascots and the hats and the whatever, that there was some inner thing of him, that just this small, quiet man in these muted colors, in his studio painting, that was just essential to him.
Kerry Diamond:
I did love Paul's wardrobe through the whole show.
David Hyde Pierce:
Good.
Kerry Diamond:
Was that a lot of fun?
David Hyde Pierce:
Yes. Yes. Everything. Matching pajamas with Julia and stuff like that, which is absolutely accurate. Both accuracy and whimsy in that costume department. Just great.
Kerry Diamond:
One of the remarkable things about Paul is how relaxed he seemed about the whole role reversal that took place with him and Julia. As you know, as his career was ending, Julius was beginning to flourish. What was it about Paul that allowed him to handle that transition so well?
David Hyde Pierce:
I think it's because that transition was a moment in a very, very, very, very long, rich relationship that they'd already had together, where they had introduced each other, discovered with each other things like exotic Chinese food when they were working in the OSS during World War II, that he introduced her to French culture and food. And then she discovered the…. And so she started taking off on her own and he supported her in that. And as she was writing the cookbook, he helped doing illustrations and taking photographs.
And so it was always a partnership. So I feel like at this moment, when this new event happened, it was still a partnership. He had to negotiate, I'm sure, what it is like for a man at that era who was supposed to be the man, supposed to be the breadwinner, supposed to be the head of the household. They were a very liberal couple, so maybe had a broader perspective on how relationships could go. But still, we all have egos. We all have a sense of self and a sense of recognition. And I think for Paul, too, so much of his frustration in his career as a diplomat was that he just never got the recognition he and Julia felt that he deserved. In a way I think it makes it even more beautiful that maybe it wasn't so easy as he made it seem, but he absolutely did it for her, and went along happily on that ride.
Kerry Diamond:
We talked about the love story between Paul and Julia. I absolutely love the relationship between Paul and Avis. As you mentioned, they have so many fabulous moments. Episode four is a great example of that. And it only builds over the upcoming episodes. Tell us a little bit about Paul and Avis.
David Hyde Pierce:
Well, Avis was in fact, a very dear friend of Julia and Paul's. In fact, she was... I think had a lot to do with ultimately Julia finding Judith Jones, her editor for, the Mastering the Art of French Cooking. And also literally found them their house in Cambridge. And she and her now late husband, they were dear friends.
And so that has stayed. As our show starts, her husband has passed away. So she's a widow and alone. I think there is this friction between Avis and Paul that has to do with an unspoken feeling of, "No, she's my friend." "No, she's my friend." "No, I know what's best for her." "No, I know what's best for her." I think there's a hidden conflict for Paul, which is he lost the love of his life, Edith Kennedy. She died. And Julia Child is the love of his life. How do you reconcile having two loves of your life? Is that a thing? Is that possible? Well, Avis lost her husband who was the love of her life. And she has Julia, who she just adores. And I just sometimes think that tremor in the force, whatever that is, that sort of unreconciled thing may in some way inform this conflict between them. But God bless the writers because they've also found ways that these two very smart, very loving people are also able to care for each other and be there for each other, and for Julia.
Kerry Diamond:
In the beginning, there's so many amazing scenes with you and Bebe. Were the writers able to have fun with that because you and Bebe have such a rich history? All those years on Frazier together?
David Hyde Pierce:
When Bebe was casted as Avis, I wasn't yet a part of the project. Certainly in the pilot where there is this sort of antagonism between them about Julia, I don't think that was written with our relationship, our acting relationship or our previous roles on Frazier in mind. I do know that because Bebe and I did work together all those years, 11 years on Frazier, we love each other. Also, we both come from the theater, so we have similar ways of working.
I think they saw that there was something there. And I know when people were write series, my husband is a writer, if you see like a glimmer of, "Oh, maybe there's a story there." It's like water in the desert or something. And so I know that they followed it because they thought there was potential there. And I think the more they wrote to it, the more they enjoyed it. But also, and this is why they're good writers. They didn't just keep writing this funny conflict. They gave each character their own depth and richness that allowed it to go in a lot of different directions.
Kerry Diamond:
You mentioned theater. There are a lot of playwrights on this, a lot of actors from theater. Why do you think so many of you coalesced around this project?
David Hyde Pierce:
Well, they're very literate characters, all of the people involved. Theater is about words as much as it is about images. Whereas film and television can be more just about the images. This opportunity for all of us to use what we've grown up doing in a way that made sense for these characters and for these stories. It's nice too, because part of what the show, not only this show, but what Julia's show is about was talking to America, talking not just to literate people, but just talking to anybody. Making this stuff accessible, not because you needed to swallow your medicine, just because it's a part of the world that a lot of Americans weren't exposed to.
Kerry Diamond:
All right, we're going to talk about food.
David Hyde Pierce:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you cook?
David Hyde Pierce:
I don't. When my husband and I met, we were both young actors in New York. He is and was a very talented cook. And he actually went to Peter Kump's Cooking School.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, really?
David Hyde Pierce:
Here in New York and trained and had his own catering business. So I, in those years, worked as a sous chef for him. And I learned a little bit about that end of the business. But he has a very creative sort of cooking mind, which I do not have.
Kerry Diamond:
But it sounds like you might have technical chops.
David Hyde Pierce:
I have some, yeah. Literally some technical chops that I can do, of onions and carrots and things like that. I appreciate good food. And my mom was a good cook and my sisters are great cooks. So I've been exposed to good food.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what mise en place is.
David Hyde Pierce:
I do. There are mice in our house. Isn't that what it means?
Kerry Diamond:
So how have you fed yourself all these years?
David Hyde Pierce:
Very simply. I'll do eggs in a microwave. Spray a cup with olive oil, put a couple eggs in, stir them up, and zap them, and you've got scrambled eggs.
Kerry Diamond:
You just broke some hearts out there.
David Hyde Pierce:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Kerry Diamond:
Do you go to restaurants a lot?
David Hyde Pierce:
Well, not in the last two years. But yeah, there's a wonderful restaurant in New York called Cafe Luxembourg. And when Brian and I were first together, we would maybe once a year be able to save up the money to go there as our special go-to place and have the cassoulet if it was in winter or something like that. And now, because we both worked in television and we have a little bit more money than we had, it's one of our favorite places. It's just a great restaurant and great feeling of home and terrific food.
Kerry Diamond:
A New York institution.
David Hyde Pierce:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Kerry Diamond:
My last question for you.
David Hyde Pierce:
Yes?
Kerry Diamond:
If Julia and Paul were coming over for dinner, what's the one thing you would make? And who's one person you would invite to join you?
David Hyde Pierce:
Okay. Obviously I would make eggs in a microwave. No, here's what I would do. It's funny. Brian and I were talking about this idea. First of all, the one person I would invite would be Brian so he could actually cook. And the thing he wanted to make for them is her recipe of... I think it's called melon chicken, which is you take a chicken, you completely de-bone it and fill it with ham and I forget what else. And you sort of truss it up, its skin, so that it's round. It looks like a melon. It's all stuffed. And he said... This is Brian talking. He said, "You know, it's really not that hard. And it looks really difficult." And I thought, "Yeah." But anyway, that's what he would serve to them, especially because I think that's something he said she came to later in life, a recipe she came to later in life.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that. I didn't even know what that was. So I'm-
David Hyde Pierce:
Look it up.
Kerry Diamond:
Going to look it up.
David Hyde Pierce:
It's incredible. The idea of being able to sit down to a meal with them would be just awesome.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, David, thank you so much. Your portrayal of Paul is just so beautiful. And I love the series so much and it's an honor to talk to you.
David Hyde Pierce:
This has been great. Thank you so much for having me.
Kerry Diamond:
Thank you so much to David Hyde Pierce. Next up is an expert on Paul and Julia. It's their grand-nephew, the author and journalist Alex Prud'homme. Alex co-wrote the memoir My Life in France with Julia and his latest work is a children's book about Julia called Born Hungry. Alex, welcome to Dishing on Julia.
Alex Prud'homme:
Thanks, Kerry. Really good to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
I would love to know what your connection is to Paul and Julia.
Alex Prud'homme:
Well, Paul was the twin brother of my grandfather, Charles Child. And so technically he's my grand-uncle. And that makes Julia my grand-aunt, although I usually say great-aunt. And Paul and Julia were quite a good, big part of our lives growing up. They never had kids of their own, but they treated my sisters and my cousins and me like surrogate grandchildren. And we were very lucky to spend time with them here in New York City when they would come down here for shows or so on. Or in Cambridge where they lived up near Boston, or up in Maine, where we have a family house, or in France, where they had a place, or in California, where they retired. Thanksgivings were always our favorite family holiday. I was very lucky. I should just say, that not only Julia, but my grandmother, my aunts, my mother were really good cooks. And so we were a foodie family before that was a thing.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm so jealous because I do not come from a foodie family. My family does their best at Thanksgiving. Your Thanksgivings must have been spectacular.
Alex Prud'homme:
They were really fun. Yeah. Really fun. Still are. Like I said, they treated us like surrogate grandchildren. So we were lucky to see them. But then they would disappear and they would go off and live their fabulous lives. And the funny thing is growing up as a kid, we used to watch Julia on The French Chef in our little tiny black and white TV back in the day. And it was not a big television. And then she would show up at my parents' apartment, having come from the studio, and she'd come over for dinner. And when you're a little kid, you'd think, "Oh yeah, she just stepped out of the TV." Later on you kind of figure out the separation. But it was fun knowing her both as...
... the separation, but it was fun knowing her both as a television celebrity and also as a member of the family who was, essentially, the same person. The Julia you saw on TV was the Julia that I knew. And even at the end of her life, when I was lucky enough to help her write her memoir, My Life in France, and it was just the two of us in a room, she was cracking wise, asking questions, totally curious about me and the family and what was going on geopolitically or what the gossip was from Hollywood, whatever. Just very lively, funny, mischievous, creative, and very thoughtful, too. That Julia you saw on TV was the real Julia.
Kerry Diamond:
How about Paul?
Alex Prud'homme:
It's funny because they say opposites attract. Julia was tall and loud and bright and sunny. Paul was the opposite. He was much shorter, much quieter, more cerebral, a wonderful artist. They were really two sides of a coin, as they used to say. They would sign their lead letters JP with the letters interlinked as if they were sort of one being with these two sides. It was fascinating to... Their marriage was really remarkable.
Only in the sense that it was so perfect as to be almost unattainable. I mean, now that I have a family with kids and responsibilities, I think that their success and their joie de vivre, they really fed off of each other, and I kind of intuited that as a kid. And I appreciate it all the more now as an adult because I just see... Of course, it wasn't always perfect. They're human beings, they're fallible, they had problems. They had quite a few problems in their private lives that people don't know about, health problems and so on. But they loved each other deeply and they really were symbiotic in their relationship.
Kerry Diamond:
It's so interesting that you use the term unattainable because that has popped into my mind a few times. They've been famously portrayed now several times. And I think, is this too good to be true? Is this a lot of creative license? Or was the relationship really like this?
Alex Prud'homme:
It was really like that. It really was. When we wrote Julia's memoir, she dedicated it to Paul because she said, "Without Paul Child, I would not have had my career," and that's true.
Kerry Diamond:
And I know you had to nudge-
Alex Prud'homme:
Yes. Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
... your grand aunt-
Alex Prud'homme:
Yes, I did.
Kerry Diamond:
... to do that book.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yes. She had been talking about doing a memoir of her favorite years of her life is when they went to France from 1948 to 1954 and lived there. Paul was working in the US embassy as a cultural attache. Julia was an anonymous housewife, diplomatic wife, who learned to cook and fell in love with France and its food, met some French friends, and began to teach cookery, and joined their project in creating a French cookbook for the American market. And in her Julia way, she sort of subtly took over the project and reshaped it, really gave it structure, began sending their recipes back to her sister and friends here in the States so they could try those French recipes in American kitchens with American ingredients.
She really took this very American approach to creating recipes. So, her French friends would say, "Oh, you do a little of this and a dash of that, a little butter here, a little salt there," and she would always say, "Well, how much salt and how much butter?" And they'd say, "Oh Julia, you know." "No, I don't know." And I think this comes from the fact that she learned to cook relatively late in life. She didn't know how to cook growing up because she had grown up in an upper middle class household in Pasadena and they had a cook, and so there was no reason for her to go into the kitchen except to eat. And I have a kid's book that's just come out, it's called Born Hungry.
Kerry Diamond:
That's right. Congratulations.
Alex Prud'homme:
Thank you. And the title comes from something she used to say, which was, "I was born hungry, not a cook." It's one of those classic Julia lines that seems very simple, but it's actually quite profound. Meaning, everybody has to learn how to cook, and if I can do it beginning at age 37, you can too. You just have to apply yourself. And that was a very profound, empowering statement for a lot of people in the '60s and '70s, particularly women, but not only women. And it went along with a lot of the other things she said. And it was just her attitude that, "Hey, if I can do it, you can do it."
And I don't think she operated out of a sense of vanity. She loved being a celebrity because it was fun, and she was a ham, but she really considered herself a teacher and a student. She used to say, "I'm an eternal pupil," meaning that you can always continue to learn right up until you're dying day, which she did. I mean, I was with her two days before her death at age 91.99, two days before her 92nd birthday, and she was talking about, "Oh, I want to go to a Chicago slaughter house and I want to go lobster fishing in Maine. I want to teach kids how to make a chocolate cake." This was two days before she died. And that's just so quintessential Julia.
Kerry Diamond:
I love that you said the Julia on screen was the Julia that you got in real life. But how about Paul? I mean, I know we didn't have any... Paul wasn't on television with Julia. What was he like?
Alex Prud'homme:
He was once.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, he was?
Alex Prud'homme:
In one episode he was, and he plays a character sort of, a husband who is coming home from work and his boss wants to come over for dinner at the last minute. And so, Paul, playing the husband, calls Julia at home and says, "Darling, my boss is coming home, could you whip up something?" And she goes, "Ah, yes, I have just the thing, a ham steak," and she teaches you how to make ham steak. And it's a great little moment.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's some good Julia trivia there-
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah
Kerry Diamond:
... Alex.
Alex Prud'homme:
And he's got this Boston Brahman accent.
Kerry Diamond:
I want to talk about Paul's career and then the transition to Julia's career. Because Julia seemed content for their lives to revolve around Paul's State Department career. Was Paul as content when things started to revolve around Julia's?
Alex Prud'homme:
Very much so. One of the things that's interesting in the show is it seems to be a tension between Paul and Julia over her rise to stardom and Paul feeling somewhat left out. In real life, that wasn't quite what happened. What happened in real life was that Paul had been sort of the leader, if you will, of the relationship for many years. He had been the diplomat who brought her to France. He was in the embassy, he was giving speeches and opening art galleries and visiting mayors, and very much of an out front political public role.
Julia, as I said, was this obscure housewife who became obsessed with food, and she was teaching, but it was six to 10 students in her apartment. By 1961, when he quit the State Department, her book came out that October, October of '61. Paul had retired and was contemplating a life of quiet art making, and she was going to teach a few classes in their house and they were going to have a really nice time together and not be professionals because they had been... Not only were they posted to France, but they were later posted to Germany and Norway and Washington DC and they'd been moving around the world for-
Kerry Diamond:
Their whole adult lives. Right?
Alex Prud'homme:
... 20 years. Yeah. And they were ready for a break and to chill out. But fate had other ideas, and luckily for all of us, Julia got on television in 1963. But Paul was instrumental in that. He was key. He was the behind the scenes guy that made it possible. He was very, in real life, he was very happy to step back and be the, the gray power behind the scenes.
Kerry Diamond:
Why was he so open to this role reversal?
Alex Prud'homme:
Well, they had a very equal relationships. They always did. She was a strong person, but he was a strong personality in a different way, in a quiet way. So, there were sometimes sparks between them, but as with any marriage, but he was very in love with her and very supportive of her. And she was really his muse. And so, he was happy to step back and to push her forward, and she was happy to finally be in the spotlight because that's her natural place to be.
Kerry Diamond:
So, it really just comes down to they were modern?
Alex Prud'homme:
They were modern. That's a good way of putting it. Exactly. They were ahead of their time. Julia used to call Paul, "My chief mushroom dicer, dishwasher, first line editor, staff photographer, business manager, and husband."
Kerry Diamond:
He was so worldly. And I just feel like there aren't a lot of folks like Paul Child around anymore.
Alex Prud'homme:
I don't think there were a lot of Paul Child-
Kerry Diamond:
Even back then?
Alex Prud'homme:
... back then.
Kerry Diamond:
Would you ever write a book about Paul?
Alex Prud'homme:
Well, the photobook, France is a Feast, is largely my tribute to Paul because I explain all of this in the course of talking about their years together in France and how he became a photographer, how he got to know all the most famous photographers of the day. And really, he could have been one of them. And they thought about it. He thought about quitting the State Department and becoming a full-time photographic artist and just staying in Paris. But they also saw how difficult that life could be, and they liked the security of the United States government paycheck and-
Kerry Diamond:
And Julia did come for money, so she wasn't-
Alex Prud'homme:
And Julia came from money, but-
Kerry Diamond:
She wasn't ready for the starving artist life.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah. But people make a big deal out of... To tell you the truth, she didn't get that much money from her father. She got some, for sure, which definitely made it doable. But they were living in this flat in Paris with no heat and it was really cold. And there's some funny pictures of them all bundled up. I don't think you would do that if you had the money to afford a fancier place. I mean, clearly, they weren't starving. I think they spent their money on going out to eat or buying things at the marketplace. But their priorities were my priorities, essentially, that education, life experience, travel, those are the things that are more important.
Her father, Big John McWilliams, who she called Pop, was the opposite. He was a Pasadena right-wing businessman who saw the world in terms of dollars and cents. And so, he and Paul were sort of polar opposites and Julia kind of bounced back and forth because she actually had a lot of her father in herself, although she was more intellectually drawn to Paul's position. But there was a tough side of Julia and a business side of Julia, and I write about this in The French Chef in America, the book about this period, I wrote she was bringing more to the table than her collaborator, Simca Beck business-wise. Because she had gotten on television, she had been on the cover of Time Magazine, she won an Emmy in a Peabody, she had been invited to the White House, and she felt that she was selling more copies of their book in America than Simca was in France. And that was true.
Kerry Diamond:
Don't you love that Isabella Rossini plays Simca-
Alex Prud'homme:
I love Isabella.
Kerry Diamond:
... in the series? I love Isabella.
Alex Prud'homme:
That one little snippet is so perfect. I'm waiting for more. Simca was a totally fascinating, crazy character, and I only met her a couple of times as a kid. She sort of let Simca know that Julia should be getting more of the revenue from their project, and Simca ultimately agreed, after squawking for a bit, because Julia had the numbers. But not everybody would do that, and that shows you that she had strong self-belief and was willing to use a sharp elbow now and then to get her way
Kerry Diamond:
Since we're talking about out the show, I'm so curious, what do you think about David Hyde Pierce as Paul?
Alex Prud'homme:
Oh, well, I've been a long time fan of David Hyde Pierce and I think it's really good casting. The costumes are just right. He's got thick, dark-rimmed glasses, the clothing, even the color choices of the clothing, very Paul.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you noticed the turquoise ring-
Alex Prud'homme:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
... in every scene? Is that a real thing?
Alex Prud'homme:
That's a real thing. I have not consulted David Hyde Pierce, but I-
Kerry Diamond:
... That a real thing?
Alex Prud'homme:
That's a real thing. I have not consulted David Hyde Pierce, but I did help Stanley Tucci with his characterization of Paul. One of the notes I gave to Stan was turquoises ring, which was interesting because some people considered that sort of a feminine, and yet Paul was actually quite macho.
Kerry Diamond:
Why was the ring so special?
Alex Prud'homme:
My personal suspicion is that it was a way of signaling to the world, "I am an artist," without having to say anything. Turquoise is often associated with creative people for one reason or another, like Georgia O'Keeffe. And I suspect that it was a semiotic signal, as with his clothing, his clothes, his outfits. He was a bit of a dandy, but not in a conventional way, he wouldn't wear three piece suits, for example, which Big John McWilliams, Julia's father, did. At which they show John Cromwell in the show. Fabulous, what a great casting, because he kind of looks like Big John.
Kerry Diamond:
He's so mean.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah. Well, I think Big John was a little mean. And yet they do show Julia and Big John with this great kind of father-daughter moment, and she's kind of working him for some more money. I love that, because I think that's probably... I wasn't there, but I think that's probably what happened.
Kerry Diamond:
I really just loved that he made Paul his own.
Alex Prud'homme:
I particularly like the scenes when Paul's having his art show in the gallery, which was a struggle for him interestingly, he only had a few shows even though he was really talented. I suspect he didn't really care so much about commercial success, he just loved to make the work as Julia loved to cook and teach. And the success was really nice, but it wasn't the reason that they did what they did. There's a sort of poignancy to those art shows where Julia is in the... At least in the television show, she's becoming a celebrity. David Hyde Pierce's version of Paul is sort of desperate for attention and the accolades for his art, I don't think it was that way in real life. Paul was didn't have that about him, he just really loved to do his work and his work survives him. And we have some and there's kind of spread all over the place, but they're wonderful.
Kerry Diamond:
You are so close to this. You not only have written about them for years, but you are related to them. And it has to be so complicated, maybe that's the right word, so complicated to watch another version of them.
Alex Prud'homme:
It is hard. I have to say when I saw the first episode I had to take a deep breath and remind myself, this is not a documentary. There is a documentary that's just come out, it's called Julia, it's very good.
Kerry Diamond:
And you can watch that if you want the documentary.
Alex Prud'homme:
You can watch, I recommend it, I'm in it. You can see me going on. It's got a lot of food and it's lovely.
Kerry Diamond:
But you're an artist also.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
How do you give creative license?
Alex Prud'homme:
Well, I have to remind myself it's not a documentary because I did know these people and there's enough truth in there that it's pretty close, and yet it is a drama. It's a television drama, it's a very specific thing. I have to let my inner control freak go and just enjoy for what it is-
Kerry Diamond:
That's a tough one.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah. Right? I think anybody who's had creative person can understand that.
Kerry Diamond:
As a family member you must be amazed that there's just this inexhaustible appetite for all things Julia.
Alex Prud'homme:
It is remarkable. She died in 2004 and we're still talking about her. Not only are we talking about her, but there are more and more projects coming out about her all the time. And she has become, with the latest iteration of the American food movement, kind of the patron Saint or the... I think of her as sort of the fairy godmother of the modern food movement. And she was also a revolutionary, I call her a revolutionary in pearls. Paul always said, people mistook Julia the clown, Julia the performer for the revolutionary who radically changed the American diet and the American relationship to food in general. It wasn't just what we were eating, it was how we ate, what tools we used. People were going out to restaurants more. I think some of that stuff was a natural evolution, but Julia turbocharged it starting in 1963, really starting in 61 when Mastering the Art of French Cooking was published.
In the French Chef in America I talk about that, I met some of her neighbors in Cambridge, who are sadly no longer with us, but who I was able to interview. And they said, "You could not imagine how profound the change was when Julia moved into the neighborhood and got everybody cooking, competing with each other." All these highly educated women who were not employed had all this energy and they channeled it into food and entertaining in a whole new way, and it was a radical shift. And it came at a point in American history, which was a moment of radical shift, the sixties and seventies. And so again, she was the right person with the right message at the right time.
Kerry Diamond:
You told me Julia's messages and her rules. What would Paul's have been?
Alex Prud'homme:
Paul was very much about process. So there's some scenes where he is rehearsing Julia for The French Chef at home, that was true. That was true to life. They created a set in their home kitchen and she would rehearse making the boeuf bourguignon or the coq au vin, whatever it was, and they would have the bowls and he would say, "Now put this bowl over here instead of there, that way when you swing then the camera can see you." And he was a very visual person, so he saw it as a camera lens might. He was also wonderful with words and as they depict humorously in the show, she sometimes stumbled that he would make cue cards. Now, the cue cards they have in the show are kind of fancy, the ones he made were very rudimentary. He had one that said, "Look here dummy," with a big arrow pointing at the camera lens, because she would look off into the corners and look up at the lights.
There was one that said, "Stop breathing," because she would... She would get all excited. It didn't mean stop breathing, it meant stop huffing and buffing. So that stuff really happened. And so he was instrumental and again, he was kind of her cornerman, he was her stage manager, and he was about the process, he was about rehearse, don't just go up there and wing it. So even though she's natural and confident in front of the camera, part of that is because she had spent 10 years cooking in obscurity and teaching. And part of it was because she had rehearsed for that specific show.
Kerry Diamond:
She's such a natural, I didn't realize how much preparation went into each show.
Alex Prud'homme:
Yeah. Yeah, and she was a workhorse. She would sleep maybe six hours a night, and I remember being at very boozy dinner parties at their place and I would go to bed at midnight or one in the morning. And at six o'clock in the morning you'd hear this thump, thump, thump downstairs, and it was Julia on her elliptical trainer. And I would go running down say, "What is that noise? Oh, there's Julia working out." And then she'd always be cooking and she would always have the typewriter going, and she was just an incredible role model in so many ways.
Kerry Diamond:
You had many a meal with Julia when you were working together on My Life in France, if you could have dinner with Paul and Julia, what would you make and who would you invite to join you?
Alex Prud'homme:
Wow, that's a big one. It's tempting to say something like Escoffier and some of the great culinary giants, but-
Kerry Diamond:
Or should we make it Paul? You just have dinner with Paul since we kind of touched on that?
Alex Prud'homme:
No, no, no, I think it's good because actually you can't really separate them. I think Paul and Julia, they were two sides of a coin as they said. I'd like to get the band get back together again, I'd like to get the old gang. We would meet in La Pitchoune, their house from the south of France, I would make something from the sea. I think I would start with some champagne, which they loved, probably some oysters, maybe some caviar. Then we'd move on to a fish dish, maybe Julia's bouillabaisse, which is a really rich and delicious fish stew. And then we'd have obviously a green salad, we'd have some wine, some rose probably, since we'd be down in the south of France, a café filtre, a dark coffee.
Dessert would be probably a Tarte Tatin, which is a caramelized apple tart, or maybe a Reine de Saba, which is the flourless chocolate almond cake, which is one of Julia's favorites and really good. And the guests would be the old crew, it would be Julia and Paul, Simca and her husband, Jean, Louisette, so the tres gourmand who were the Julia's partners in crime. I would love to have Judith Jones, her editor for many years at Knopf, who was our editor on My Life in France and was a legend. Maybe James Beard, who often spent time with them down there. Probably some family members and friends, and it would be a real great family meal.
Kerry Diamond:
If there's an extra invitation, I'd love to come to that dinner.
Alex Prud'homme:
Oh, well of course Kerry, you'd be invited. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, Alex, so good to see you. Thank you for sharing all your memories and for being so generous with your stories about Julia and Paul.
Alex Prud'homme:
My pleasure, mercy and bon appetite.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for this episode of Dishing On Julia, the Official Companion Podcast of Julia now streaming on HBO Max. Dishing On Julia is produced by Cherry Bombe Media. Thank you to the Cherry Bombe team, including executive producers, Catherine Baker and Audrey Payne, special projects editor, Donna Yen, associate producer, Jenna Sadhu and editorial assistant Krista White. I'm your host, Kerry Diamond. Special thanks to Steven Tolle and the team at CityVox for the audio production. Check back as we dish on the latest episode of Julia and chat with our cast and crew and special industry guests.
Paul Child:
To Julia.
Julia Child:
To us.