Erin Jeanne McDowell Transcript
Jessie Sheehan:
Hi, peeps. You're listening to She's My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast from The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. I'm your host, Jessie Sheehan. I'm a baker, recipe developer, and author of four baking books, including “Salty Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes.” On each episode, I hang out with the sweetest bakers around and take a deep dive into their signature.
I'm so excited for our show today because Erin Jeanne McDowell is back to talk all things pie. Erin has been on the show before, but I was desperate to have her back on so I could pick her brain about pie dough before Thanksgiving. Erin is a beloved baker, teacher, cookbook author, video host, and all-around pie wizard. Her first cookbook, “The Fearless Baker,” was named one of New York Times' best baking books of 2017. Her second book, “The Book on Pie, Everything You Need to Know to Bake Perfect Pies,” is a New York Times bestseller that has become the must-have handbook for pie lovers everywhere. Her third was “Savory Baking,” and her fourth baking book is slated to be released in the fall of 2026. Erin has a YouTube series called Happy Baking and recently launched a Substack newsletter of the same name. Through her work, Erin has helped countless home bakers gain confidence with their pie dough skills. From mixing the dough in order to achieve the perfect, and your preferred-sized, butter pieces, if you know, you know, to rolling and crimping, and baking. Erin walks me through the black-bottom pecan pie recipe from “The Book on Pie.” We go step by step through the dough-making process, as well as the par-baking, and then the black-bottom and the filling. I always love listening to Erin talk pie, and I'm always learning from her, and in this chat, I got to hear more about where her love of pie was born, spoiler alert, her grandmother's kitchen, and about some of the first pies she ever baked. I know you're going to love this conversation, especially those of you listeners who are making and baking pies this holiday season. So, grab your rolling pins and get ready for the ultimate pie deep dive. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com.
Today's episode is presented by Diamond of California Nuts, the century-old nut brand I couldn't bake without. If I opened my freezer for you right now, because that's where I keep my nuts, you'd see my stock of Diamond walnuts, almonds, and pecans ready for whatever I'm baking next. I love that they work with family-run farms that guarantee quality and commitment to the craft. Diamond also created the first-ever ready-to-use nut pie crust, which just so happens to be gluten-free. If you haven't checked these out, you must. They're the best holiday baking shortcut. The first ingredient is nuts, not flour or sugar, and you can really taste the difference. There's a pecan crust that would be amazing with your Thanksgiving pumpkin or apple pies, and a chocolate crust that I just want with everything. When you're at the grocery store, look for the nuts in the white bag with a red Diamond logo in the baking aisle. That's your sign, you're getting premium-quality nuts that bakers have trusted for generations. Visit diamondnuts.com to find a store nearest you and to explore their fan-favorite recipes like pecan sticky buns. Yum. Happy baking.
Today's episode of She's My Cherry Pie is presented by our friends at California Prunes, the best prunes out there. We love them for two big reasons: they're a smart, wholesome snack, and they're a fabulous secret weapon in baking. You already know prunes are good for your gut, and maybe you've heard about their bone health benefits. But here's the real scoop. Prunes are downright delicious. Whether you're baking something sweet or cooking up something savory, don't just take my word for it. Here's what some of today's top chefs and bakers are saying. Pastry chef and cookbook author Rose Wilde of Red Bread in L.A. says, "Prunes are so juicy and sweet. They have flavors of caramel and molasses, and I really love using them as an ingredient. In the seasons when fresh produce isn't as abundant, they're a total dreamboat." Chef Ana Castro of Acamaya in New Orleans says, "Prunes have a sultriness to them, they're rich like velvet." Chef Kat Turner of Highly Likely in L.A. says, "I love prunes. They're incredibly versatile. Hitting that perfect balance between sweet and savory, I find them incredibly sensual. One of my favorite baking hacks is using prune purée; it adds amazing flavor while helping cut back on sugar, eggs, and fat in your recipe. Just blend prunes and water, and you're good to go." For more inspiration and plenty of recipes, visit californiaprunes.org. Happy baking and happy snacking.
Peeps, did you hear the news? Jubilee New York 2026 is happening on Saturday, April 25th, at the Glasshouse in Manhattan, and early bird tickets are on sale now. Jubilee is Cherry Bombe's annual conference celebrating women and creatives in the world of food and drink. It'll be a beautiful day of connection and community, plus delicious bites and sips. You'll meet other thoughtful food folks and be inspired by the featured speakers, panelists, and more. I had such a great time at this past year's event, and I know next year's will somehow be bigger and better. Early bird tickets are on sale now through December 31st. If you're an official Bombe Squad member or a paid Substack subscriber, be sure to use your discount code at checkout. You can find it in your inbox or on our Substack website. Head to cherrybombe.com for all the details. I hope to see you there.
Let's chat with today's guest. Erin, we're so excited to have you on She's My Cherry Pie again and to talk-
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Hello!
Jessie Sheehan:
... black-bottom pecan pie with you and so much more.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Oh, me too. Thank you so much for having me. It's so lovely to hear your voice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, yours too. So, you basically baked all through your childhood with your mom and your grandma, and you 100% grew up in a food-obsessed family in Lawrence, Kansas. Can you share an early baked-good-eating memory and/or baked-good-making memory?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think with so many people, it's probably cookies, but I think I have better answers than that. My mom was an amazing cook and baker, so a lot of my earliest memories are more to do with savory foods. But when I was growing up, my mom made bread from scratch almost exclusively. I would say we still bought bread. I guess she would probably laugh at me saying "exclusively," but that pleasure of homemade bread is so special, and I remember going over to a friend's house at a pretty young age and trying Wonder Bread for the first time and being like, "What is this?" It was not what I had experienced at home.
She made a lot of whole wheat breads and things like that, too. So, those are definitely some of my earliest memories. I fell in love with bread, eating it in particular, very early on. Making it would come later on, because when you're a kid, of course, that's not a fun thing to make, because it takes too long. It's much more fun to make pudding or something when you're a kid.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, the story of how you fell in love with pie, and really how you learned to find joy in the kitchen, is intrinsically connected to your grandmother. As a teenager, you started seriously baking at like 14 with her, and you're very interested in baking pie. Tell us about hanging out at her house and practicing baking pie, because first of all, I wanted to know if you walked there. I want to know how you were getting there, and then, second of all, tell the story about how she'd pull out a bowl of apples and be like, "Oh, you want to bake pie?" Acting like she had just thought of the idea.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I definitely did not walk there. My grandma lived in a town called Overbrook, Kansas. The slogan of Overbrook, still to this day painted on their water tower, is "Don't Overlook Overbrook," and Overbrook would be extremely easy to overlook because it is a very, very small, very rural town in Kansas. It was at least 40 minutes from anywhere I lived as a kid. So, I was either being picked up by my grandma and driving there with her, or once I could drive, that was actually one of the few places my parents would let me drive early on in having a license, because it was mostly country roads and not as scary, I think. But I loved driving out there as well, and we baked a lot.
When I would go to visit her when I was really little, I called them "grandma days," and I would literally wake up in the morning and say to one of my parents, "I need a grandma day. I need a grandma day." And when I was young, my brother and I had to have separate grandma days because he wanted to do different things than I wanted to do with her. My grandma was so fantastic in so many ways, and anyone in my family, when they talk about her, it's just like, I used to cry every time I talk about her, but now she's been gone long enough that I smile real big every time because I just remember everything, and that's such a pleasure. The memories are fresh even though she's been gone for a long time.
She liked to bake, but she didn't like to have the food around the house, so she would bake if she was going to a party. She would bake if she knew it was the neighbor's birthday, and she might take them some of it. She loved to make bread, but if she made a loaf of bread at home, she would eat the whole thing, and she thought that was really bad. So, she always wanted to make bread when I came over, because then together we'd eat the whole thing, and that was slightly less bad.
The first time she asked me to make a pie, it was exactly this thing that you described. It was so funny. She very casually pulled out this bowl of apples. She was like, "I don't know, you want to maybe make a pie or something?" But obviously, she had bought the apples, a larger quantity of apples than a woman living alone would ever be eating if she wasn't making a pie. So, she'd clearly been planning to make the pie. Now, she might not have been planning to make it with me, but I, of course, immediately jumped on board. And that first time that we baked pie together, that I remember, we might've made one at some point in my youth, I don't think so.
I did make pies with my mom a couple of times. I have this great picture of my mom, grandma, and I all scooping ice cream and slicing pies at a big family party. I'm like maybe 10, but that first pie that we baked together was around age 14, and it wasn't good. That was the problem. It was really bad. It was a recipe from a magazine, and it had an olive oil crust, which you can already tell how I feel about that. That was not going to fly. We tasted it, and we were like, "This is not even okay. It's not good." So, we set about changing that immediately, if not sooner. And basically, the next time I went over, we were planning, and we had a different crust recipe this time, and we went about it.
And the thing that was really special about baking with my grandma, my mom is a fantastic cook and baker, as I already mentioned, and most people who love to cook or bake, she wants her kitchen in a specific way. I'm that way now. I'm 100% that way now. I don't even want people to volunteer to load the dishwasher when they're at my house because I load it a certain way, and she was that way. So, even though my mom and dad have always been so supportive of me and my career and everything I've done, when I first started baking, I think it was a real thorn in my mom's side.
Because I would leave a mess, and I would... when you're a kid, you don't see those things, you're literally blind to it. Sometimes I thought I'd cleaned up after myself, but there was flour all over the floor or whatever. So, when I would go to my grandma's house, that wasn't really a problem. She didn't really care if I made a mess. I was leaving eventually, and she could put everything back right, and in the meantime, she was just wanting to spend time with her grandchild. And so, like is true at most grandma's houses, things flew there that did not fly at home.
Because of that, I ended up really loving to bake at my grandma's house. She would let me do more of it. She let me actually mix the dough and roll out the dough, and do certain things. If anything, she was grateful to have me do it. She didn't always want to be doing all of those things, whereas when it was with my mom, sometimes she would take over, or if it was time to clean up, she'd even kick me out of the kitchen and just clean up herself. So, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned how to test recipes in my grandma's kitchen as we started trying to find out how we liked pie dough.
And the pie dough recipe that I used today, absolutely, was started and was created in my grandma's kitchen in Overbrook.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll be right back. Today's episode is presented by King Arthur Baking Company. We love King Arthur's flour and their test kitchen-approved recipes, but we're especially excited about their new baking cookbook for kids called “Sweet and Salty,” which is available now on Bookshop, Amazon, and kingarthurbaking.com. This cookbook is so cute and expertly written so that kids of all ages can bake along. Toddlers can help their parents measure flour and maybe take a turn kneading dough, and when they get a little older, some real baking can begin. They'll learn baking basics, such as folding, creaming, and how to keep eggshells out of your batter. Hey, that's a huge one. Then there are tons of fun, easy recipes to practice with, from cheesy crackers to gingerbread sheet cake. I want to make that giant chocolate chip cookie myself. This book also includes a few project bakes, like an impressive layer cake perfect for a birthday, which young bakers can tackle once they become better, more confident bakers. Which, with this book in hand, will happen pretty quickly. It's seriously a treasure trove. Find the “Sweet and Salty” cookbook, plus all the great baking resources you'll need this holiday season, at kingarthurbaking.com.
Cake lovers, you are going to love the next issue of Cherry Bombe magazine. I'm so excited to announce that the upcoming holiday issue of Cherry Bombe is all about cake. It's going to be packed with sweet stories, beautiful recipes, and heartfelt essays dedicated to our favorite dessert. Stay tuned for the cover reveal. I know it's going to be extra delicious. The issue will be out in early December, so head to cherrybombe.com to subscribe now and ensure it lands in your mailbox just in time for the holidays.
Now, back to our guest. Tell us a little bit about “The Fearless Baker,” which was your first cookbook, and covered everything. You weren't yet the pie lady, those of us that knew you knew you were a pie lady inside, but that was covering everything.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes. I pitched for my first book, an all-pie book, and the editors basically said that they thought it would be smarter to do something more generally covering baking, and I am glad that that is what happened. So, in my first book, “The Fearless Baker,” was really about my overarching belief in baking, which is that there's not just one right way to do things. There are lots of right ways, and if it feels right to you, that's sometimes the right way. And also that, I think if people understand why they're doing things, it becomes less scary.
So, that fear that we have that we're going to mess up or make a mistake, especially in baking, which got that reputation for being buried by the book. I think if you can walk in understanding instead of just "don't overmix it," well, what is overmixing, and what will happen if we overmix it? And just explaining these things, and not at a super dense food-sciency level, though I love to, out on that, as you know. But just in a way so that instead of just telling you how to make something, I'm telling you also why it works and why we're going to get that result from this. And I think that makes everyone a lot more confident in the kitchen.
And so, that was my first book, and I still love it because “The Book on Pie,” which was my second book, became so popular. A lot of people think “The Book on Pie” was my first book, and it is not. So, if you've never heard of “The Fearless Baker,” it's got a special sweet place in my heart.
Jessie Sheehan:
“The Book on Pie,” which I recently... I've always spent some time with it, but I spent a lot of time with it in preparation for chatting today. It's like a learning tool. Do you know what I mean?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
In the best way. It is a mix-and-match book of "here's the crust, here's a this, here's a that," but it really is about teaching people, which I know is what you really, really love. Was there pushback at that point from a publisher? About once, they agreed to pie, were they cool with you being like, "Okay, but get ready. This is like a deep-dive pie"?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes. The way that the publisher came around ultimately was a few years after “The Fearless Baker” came out. I had been interviewing to do some food styling with The New York Times. I don't go to any job interview without baked goods, and usually pie. So, I brought hand pies to this interview to talk about food styling. One of those hand pies ended up on Sam Sifton's desk, and they were starting to discuss this very large piece about pie that was going to run the week of Thanksgiving. That little hand pie that I made got me the job.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And it's still probably one of my favorite things I've ever done in my career. It was a really special piece. It took many, many months, and they did this... they've done it a few times since. They run it as what's called a "pan eight." It unfolds, and the pies are therefore able to be printed life-size on the page. So, there were eight pies, all printed at actually nine inches wide, which is remarkable. And after my publisher saw that piece in the paper, they were a little more keen to do a pie book, and I was thrilled.
Especially because, as you know, anything you learn when you're doing these projects, “The Book on Pie” is such a better book for all the things that I learned during “The Fearless Baker.” Savory is a much better book for all the things I learned during “Pie,” and this new one I have coming out, even more. So, I have a system now, and it works, and it's so much easier, I guess, is the best way to say it, to write books as a result.
Jessie Sheehan:
I couldn't agree with you more. Each time you're like "Oh, oh, oh," which is really exciting if you're lucky enough to have opportunities to do it more than once.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
To do more than once. Exactly. And I think that that was all I was hoping for is, I just want to write another one. I just want to write another one. And I also had felt really strongly that I didn't want to write a book about a single subject until I really had something to offer that was different than what was out there. And I think what's different about “The Book on Pie” is specifically this mix-and-match nature of, there's 50 crusts, 40 toppings, and more than 100 fillings.
And the idea is that you can create your dream pie by mixing and matching those things, and the learning tools that you're talking about are to just make you feel more confident to be able to do that. To not need to be following one specific recipe. For cherry pie, you could be making a cherry pie with a chocolate crust and a lemon meringue. Whatever you want to be doing, you can create that if you understand how these pieces work, and I felt like that's what I could offer that was different than what I'd seen.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think you're selling yourself a teeny bit short if you say the mix-and-match is the only thing that makes it unique, because I really believe the teaching element is epic. Erin-
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Thank you.
Jessie Sheehan:
... nobody... I don't think, dives quite that deep into, "Okay, do you want a mealy crust? Do you want a flaky crust? Do you want a super flaky..." like you are. So, I want to also give you props for that...
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Thank you. Honestly, that's the only thing that could make me cry, because I just want so badly for people to learn. And it frustrates me as a teacher when there are learning tools out there that are not effective, and then people get frustrated with themselves, and they stop trying. But it's because they weren't necessarily given the proper tools to have success.
Jessie Sheehan:
I wanted to talk about your new book, which I think is fall 2026, is that right?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes. It'll come out next year.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you have said that you think it might be your best and that you have loved writing it. So, tell us about both those things. What are you loving about writing it so much, and what do you think makes it your best, besides each time you're better?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Definitely, you get better as you go along. The first thing that makes this book special is, it's another mix-and-match book, so I loved that element of “The Book on Pie.” I did not do that in the book that followed “Savory Baking,” because I was more just wanting to cover savory baked goods as a whole, and that wasn't the intent of that book. This book is very much meant to mix and match, and that is a unique thing about it, and also a really, really fun thing as I've started using it.
When I first started writing this book, I wasn't in a very good place personally. Any big project can be very daunting when you're not in the best place, when things are maybe chaotic in your life, or anything like that. As I started to write it, because of the rules of baking, because everything is so detailed and specific. It ended up being this very safe place for me, where everything in the manuscript made sense. Even if everything outside of that room did not make sense, everything made sense when I was writing on, and it made me realize, looking back, I've spent tons of time on all of my books, but I think I spent more time on this one because I needed that escape or that respite.
And as a result, I would write sometimes at night. This is very unusual for me. I'm chronically a very early-to-bed, early-to-rise, classic baker person. My whole life changed, and I was writing at night because no one would text me, or email me, or bug me all night, and I would just write it. It's another book similar to “Fearless Baker.” It covers a huge array of subjects. It covers a lot of subjects that I've taught classes on through the years that I feel like are the really useful base recipes for people to understand. And one of the ways I'm describing it, which food people understand, is in culinary school, they teach us about the mother sauces, the mother sauces, hollandaise, and all these things.
I think there's these mother doughs and mother base recipes in baking that you can then turn into so many things, and the concept of the book is basically, if you can master these core recipes, now look at all the things you can make if you understand that. So, each section starts with this one topic. So, say, puff pastry dough, and it's classic puff pastry dough. The rough puff is included in it, too, but the classic puff pastry, with a proper lock-in and all of these things, and then the recipes that follow in the chapter all use puff pastry dough.
And so, it's just meant to show you all the things that can be done once you understand this one technique. I'm arranging it like a textbook. It's going to be called “The Building Blocks of Baking.” The building blocks are these base recipes, and then it's meant to just encourage creativity and being able to make your own things. I'm also very excited because it's the first book of mine that has a video component.
So, there's step by step photography for all of these base recipes, and then there's also a QR code below that that will take you to a video on how to make that, so you can get a little bit more information for the visual learners, like myself, because I've really fallen in love with how much video helps me to teach. It was a lot of work, a lot more work than any of the other shoots have been. It usually takes me 14 or 15 days to photograph a book. And then we shot video for six days, I think. So, almost a month in total of just the art program for this book.
Oh my gosh, I'm just so excited. I wish it could come out tomorrow. We're still editing it. As you know, that's one of the most tedious parts of the process.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so true.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I'm starting to get to watch it come to life with the design and all of those things, and that's so fun.
Jessie Sheehan:
I promise. We're going to talk about your pie very soon, but before we get, tell us a little bit about your new Substack.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I love to write, and when I first went to pastry school, that was actually what I thought I would do. I thought I was going to try to carve out a path to be a food writer, writing for magazines, newspapers, whatever outlet. And the reason I started food styling is because writing doesn't pay very much, and the food styling really helped me pay the bills, as it were, in those years that I first started writing. But as time went on, I got further and further away from the writing in some ways.
So, the Substack that I just launched is a way for me to return to that, and I'm just loving doing it. I love writing, I love being able to share more about, I don't know, the connection to food, and also something about writing helps me to slow down. I started writing it before my most recent trip to France. I've been teaching these classes in France, the last couple of years, and whenever I'm there, it's just a different way of life. It's slower. I actually sit to eat, I go for a walk every day.
There's just certain things that then sometimes, I come home and I just hit the ground running the moment I wake up until I crash out at the end of the night, and something about writing helps me to slow down the way I'm able to do so effortlessly there. And so, I'm hoping that I can maybe bring a little bit of slice of that into my life. But it was also an opportunity to share some things with folks. I tend to keep more of my personal life outside of sharing my family, which I do share my family a lot, the ones that will let me share them.
But I tend to keep things a little more private. But I did have a real crazy last few years, and I think it was getting to the point that anyone who knew me well could see it, and I just needed to address that and also to tell people that I was doing a lot better. I had some health problems, I got divorced, I really went through a tough time, and it was all during this transition of moving home to Kansas City. Which is one of the best decisions I've ever made.
I am so happy to be here. I love being back. So, it was even more confusing to be having this really tough time going on during what was actually also one of the happiest times I'd had in some time. It was a real roller coaster, and the Substack is really like a place, if you want some more behind-the-scenes things, if you want to get to know me better. And also, there's going to be a lot of exclusive recipes there that I'm not sharing anywhere else.
I just finished shooting one right before we were talking, actually. They're these really cute bows, like puff pastry bows. It's a really fun shaping technique. Super easy. So that's going to be going up on the Substack later this week. By the time this comes out, that'll be out in the interworld.
Jessie Sheehan:
All right, now we're going to jump into your black-bottom pecan pie. There are a few pieces of general pie advice that I would love you to share with us before we jump into the recipe itself. So, one thing you say is, “Good pie takes patience.” Can you explain?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Basically, the biggest thing to remember with pie is that it likes to be cold. Therefore, you're going to need to take time after pretty much every step to chill it. And the biggest advice I have for people is don't try to make a pie all in one day. Divvy up the process a bit. Make the dough one day, let it chill overnight, make the crust the next day, make the filling. You can break it up into pieces so it doesn't feel like one long thing, and that way, you can still have that patience that pie requires.
Jessie Sheehan:
I also thought this was interesting that you've said, which is that something that's hard about pie for people is that you don't actually know you've nailed it until after it's baked. And then we all know baking a pie can actually be a long, long time, particularly if it's a fruit-filled pie, over an hour. Then we have to cool it for a long time. How do we help people deal with that anxiety? I don't even want to start because I'll never know when it'll be too late by the time I know.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Totally. I really understand this fear because there's nothing more frustrating than spending hours or days, even on a projec,t and not knowing when you slice into it if it's going to be just right. I think my advice in general is that people, whenever you're baking, make sure you're using all of your senses. Make sure you're noticing what it smells like, what it feels like, even what it sounds like. Fruit pies, you can hear it bubbling when it's done.
You can see steam coming up through the vents, and all of these sensory cues are going to give you a better indication of if something is done than just the bake time alone, because everybody's oven is different. Even as the best recipe writer I can possibly be, I can't allow for every single variance that's going to happen. So, using those visual cues, really paying attention all throughout, it's also going to help you learn the next time what to be looking for, because when you do nail it, you're going to remember all those things that you went through to get there.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us about the “grandma effect.” I thought that was so interesting.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And despite me loving my grandma very much, this is not of anything to do with my grandma. I have this theory that most of the people that knew how to make really, really great pies in the United States, meaning the style of pie we make in the United States, there are lots of pies elsewhere in the world. But the style of pies that we make in the U.S., I think a lot of the people that were excellent at making them were just not recipe writers. They were grandmas, they were your aunt, they were somebody who put the recipe in the community cookbook, the church cookbook, what have you.
And as a result, there are even very reliable books that have printed recipes for many years for pies that I think are missing major steps in the process. Even the recipe on the back of a can of pumpkin is missing some of these steps. Now, that's not to say these recipes don't work. They do. I know for a fact that some of these people that were excellent at making pies were doing these steps.
So, I think I call it the grandma effect because I believe that there were a lot of great recipes and great pie bakers who just weren't great recipe writers, and we're trying to correct that now.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then finally, I always think I'm obsessed with this. I don't know if there's a tension between the two camps, but I'm interested in it. The glass pie plate peeps versus the metal. And I know you are going to die on the metal pie plate, peeps.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes, I'm here. And what's even more important to point out, though, is if you go back to the earliest things I wrote about pie early in my career, I recommended glass like crazy, and I recommended glass because you can see when it's done. I think that is such a helpful cue for people who aren't used to baking. However, pie crust sticks to glass, so it's harder to remove it. It's harder to get clean slices.
The way glass heats up and retains heat is just really not ideal for the process. My favorite is metal. My next favorite would be ceramic, like a glossy ceramic. You need to make sure that it isn't matte or textured at all. And then glass... I still bake in glass sometimes, but it is not my favorite. And if you're struggling a lot with pie and you've only ever baked in glass, I really suggest you get on my website. I have a whole list of recommended tools on there. Get yourself a new pie pan and see if just that helps. It might not be you, it might be your equipment.
Jessie Sheehan:
All righty. So, first things first, we're going to make a whole wheat crust for our chocolate-bottomed pecan pie. Your fave way is to mix by hand. We're going to talk about that way. We're also going to talk about the food processor just because I know sometimes that could be easier.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Of course.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, you like to mix by hand, but you'd say if you have hot hands, use a pastry cutter, food processor, no shame. Erin has several dough assembly methods, and each one produces a different type of pie dough. I'm sure this is blowing your mind, peeps, if you did not know this about Erin. So, we're going to chat about two of them. One is her flaky version, and one is her mealy version. One question for you before we get going, is there one that's best for a whole wheat crust, or no? Either works for whole wheat?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Truly, almost any pastry dough, you can make that texture whatever you want. And I would say it's more about what kind of texture you want with the filling. With the whole wheat, we can still get it really flaky. We can make it mealier. I think sometimes with a fruit pie, I really love a super flaky crust. Sometimes with a custard pie, I don't mind if it's a little bit more mealy. I think it just depends on your personal preference a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
When you think of pecan pie, it's not exactly a custard, but do you consider pecan pie custard? In which case would you want mealy for this?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I do consider a pecan pie custard, like a baked custard pie bound with eggs. It's essentially. It doesn't have dairy aside from some melted butter, I guess. But I would often use a slightly mealier crust. I do want to just point out, though, you can still use a flaky crust, especially if it's Thanksgiving. You want that wow impact effect when you slice into it, you want everyone to experience the flakiness, go for it. But definitely, if you'll see the picture in my book, it doesn't have as flaky of a crust. It is a little bit of a denser crust. And mealy has a negative connotation when we think of apples, but in pie dough, it just means not as flaky, denser. But again, dense doesn't mean tough, it's still very tender. It's just not as light and airy.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, flaky, essentially, we leave our butter in larger pieces, the size of walnut halves. That is what's going to produce our lighter, flakier dough. With mealy, we're mixing it up so the butter is in smaller pieces, the size of peas, and like you said, it produces less flaky dough. It's a little dense, but it's very tender.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes, and I was just going to say that when I say pea and walnut, remember that that's referring to the size but not the shape. We don't want pellets of butter. We don't want big, fat, walnut-thick pieces of butter. I want thin shards, and I just want the approximate size to be no bigger than a walnut half, no bigger than a pea. And I think that that's a big mistake that people make, which is why I had to jump in, because if you've got big, thick pieces of butter in there, that's much more prone to melting out in the oven.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's such a good point, honey. Really good point. That's a visual, not like-
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Not three-dimensionally. Two-dimensionally.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, first, in a medium bowl, and when you're at home, is it glass, is it metal?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Usually metal. If I'm filming, it's glass, but if it's just me, it's going to be...
Jessie Sheehan:
And is it like restaurant supply or a particular brand?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yep. I buy restaurant supply, big sets of metal bowls, and all my sheet pans, too.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, first, in a medium metal bowl, we're going to whisk. Is there a type of whisk or a brand of whisk?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I like GIR, which I know you and I are on the same page with that. So, that's usually my spatulas and my whisks, especially when you're just whisking dry ingredients together. Their littler whisks are so great.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love their little whisks, and their little spatulas are so...
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes, me too.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to whisk some all-purpose and some whole wheat pastry flour, although we could also use some graham flour if somebody wanted to make a graham crust rather than a whole wheat one. And we're going to talk about that whole wheat pastry flour in a second. And then we're also going to add a little fine sea salt, and we're going to be whisking that all together. Do you ever use kosher?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I don't typically use kosher salt in my baking, and it's always been just because of the big kosher salt dilemma. I don't like to necessarily have to recommend a brand, and when you're with kosher salt, you really do have to say which one you're using because they weigh so differently. So, I've always just used fine sea salt. It also, it doesn't matter as much in pie dough, but in other applications in baking, it dissolves a little bit more evenly and quickly, and all of that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Tell us why we're going to do a combo of whole wheat pastry flour and all-purpose, and then also tell us what brands you like.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
So, I love whole wheat pastry flour because whole wheat pastry flour has almost the same protein content as all-purpose flour, whereas whole wheat flour has a much higher protein content than AP. So, you can actually, if you wanted to make a totally whole wheat crust, you wouldn't have to use a blend. I use a blend in this case because it does tend to yield a lighter, more tender crust. The whole grain can weigh it down just a tiny bit. So, I like to use half and half, and it's half-half volumetrically.
I guess weight-wise, it's not quite half and half because whole wheat pastry flour weighs a little bit differently than all-purpose. I tend to prefer a bleached all-purpose flour when I'm making pie dough. I want to just throw out there, though, that I tested them extensively with both bleached and unbleached, both work. But since I'm usually using a bleached flour for pie dough, I'd probably be using Gold Medal. I still use unbleached flour fairly often.
The whole wheat pastry flour that I'm usually able to find more readily in grocery stores is from Bob's Red Mill, and so that's where I am typically getting that. I just can't say enough positive things about whole wheat pastry flour. You cannot substitute whole wheat flour one-for-one in most recipes, but you can substitute whole wheat pastry flour one-for-one with all-purpose in almost any recipe and still turn out a really incredible result because that protein content is so similar.
So, just a fun fact, if you want to make a whole wheat banana bread, just use whole wheat pastry flour. There's so many, many great ways to use that.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's such a good tip. And honey, why is bleached better for you when you're making pie?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I have found that the flour does a better job of protecting the fat when it's a bleached flour, meaning I have less of a risk of the fat melting out of the crust when I use a bleached flour versus an unbleached. Now again, if your technique is 100% perfect, it is not going to matter if you're using bleached or unbleached, but for people who are having trouble in learning, I would suggest trying it with bleached flour. It might be a little more user-friendly.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we've whisked up our dry ingredients. We're going to add some cubed, cold, unsalted butter. Brand of butter that you like?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I love Tillamook. Tillamook is my favorite butter because it's right in between. American butter is usually 80% fat. European butter is usually 82% fat. And Tillamook is 81, so it's just the best of both worlds for me.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to toss that butter through the flour until each piece is well coated. Then we're going to cut the butter into the flour by pressing the pieces between our fingers, flattening them into big shards, and we're going to continue to toss the butter through the flour as we're cutting it, recoating those shingled pieces. If your hands are super warm, use a pastry cutter. And is there a brand, honey, that you like?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think the one that I usually use is from King Arthur's shop, and I use a Cuisinart food processor if you want to use a food processor. Actually, the stand mixer with the paddle attachment is also a good option. Because it makes the shingles really nicely, whereas the food processor has a tendency to make more pellet-like pieces.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to use that pastry cutter, and sometimes even you will do a few passes with your pastry cutter while you're also using your hands. For a flaky crust, we would continue cutting the butter into the flour until the pieces of butter are the size of walnut halves, not the volume of a walnut half. And then for a mealy crust, which is probably best for this pecan pie, we'll work the mixture together until the pieces of butter are the size of peas.
If we were doing this in a food processor, when we get to that adding water part, we still want to do that by hand, but that initial cutting part, you've said the food processor can be excellent if you say it does a quick, great job. So, we'll toss the butter in the flour and salt to coat before adding it to the processor. Pulse the mixture in three-second bursts until our butter is the desired size, and it's going to be about 10 to 15 pulses. I think that's so helpful for people. Then we'll transfer it to a bowl.
If it's a particularly hot day, we could slide that bowl in the fridge before we kept going, or the freezer. Either way, whether we used our hands whether we used the mixer, we'll make a well in the middle of the dough, and we're going to add the ice water. And this is such a great Erin tip. Erin gives us a base amount, solid jumping-off point, but you say we're always probably going to need to add a little bit more and that's-
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Not even probably, we're going to need to add more, because my base amount that I put in is intentionally a bit scant, just so no one risks overdoing it. This is something I think I talked to you about the last time I was on. Unless I am telling you a specific brand of flour to use, they all hydrate very differently, and I don't tend to love to say you have to use this because, of course, if you've got something in the pantry already, use it. And as I think I told you last time, my own mom won't usually listen to my recommendations.
So, I've got to assume that if she won't, there are other people out there who might not. So, love you, Mom. So, because I don't want to tell you which brand of flour to use, I can't say exactly how it's going to hydrate. So, you can start with that base amount, and then we're just going to keep adding more until the dough comes together. And that way, no matter what flour you're using, you can make it work and get it to that perfect hydration.
Jessie Sheehan:
Just like to flag for everyone how true it is. But also, we're hearing it from the horse's mouth, that's Erin, the pie expert. This idea of how important and different flours are, different brands are. Erin has blown my mind at least with this bleached-flour idea. That's like... I don't know, it just reinforces what we all know, but sort of try to say, "Oh, it doesn't matter." So, we're going to use our hands, toss the flour and butter mixture with the water. We'll start to mix the two together, just tossing is a nice way to do it without creating any gluten at this point.
As the flour hydrates, we'll switch to a kneading motion, but we're not overdoing it. We don't want the dough to be tough. And then we're just going to add more water a tablespoon at a time until the dough is properly hydrated. What I love, and you talked about this before, Erin, how you were saying that you like to give people examples of what it looks like if it's done wrong. All of the examples, like if it's done right, it's uniformly combined, holds together easily, but it's not totally smooth.
If it's too dry, it's dusty, there are pockets of unhydrated flour, it won't hold together, it'll be crumbly. And if it's too wet, it feels sticky, and that's probably the most obvious. I think that's where people err, is that dustiness. They're like, "Oh my God, I can't add water."
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And that's the grandma effect. I think, too, there are so many recipes that were printed of "only add as much as you need," "just as much as you need to bring it together." And it really scared people. That is not as big of an issue as people think. Over-hydrating is not good. It makes the crust very tough and cracker-like. Your fork's not going to go through it. But an under-hydrated dough isn't as tender, and it's very difficult to work with. So, we really need to try to find that sweet spot, which I say the best visual cue is the clean-hand test.
After you done mixing, if you're pretty sure that you've got it right, go wash your hands, dry your hands, put your hand flat down on the dough, and lift it up. There shouldn't be anything that comes up on your hand. And if it's sticky, obviously, there's going to be stuff on your hand. But if it comes up clean, then we know we've got a pretty good dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, now we'll form the dough into an even disc, one inch thick. Wrap tightly in plastic wrap, refrigerate for at least 30 minutes, which seems short to me. You actually do recommend an hour. I love this. Erin gives you all three, the least amount of time, 30 minutes, recommended, an hour, or max, three days. And you also... this section of Erin's book is incredible. But you explain all the different times we chill dough as we are making pie. And at this point, the reason we're chilling is because it will be easier to roll out for one reason, and also, when butter is chilled, your results end up being flakier.
So, I love all of the little chill lessons. There's also a great make-ahead Thanksgiving tip here, which is you can make the dough, wrap it in plastic wrap and then aluminum foil, and freeze it for up to well, Thanksgiving's too soon for this three-month window, peeps. But still, you can freeze it for up to three months. But you could start to make your dough as soon as you listen to this episode, and then just thaw overnight in the fridge before using.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And even if you're making it the week of Thanksgiving without freezing it, you can make it three days before Thanksgiving.
Jessie Sheehan:
When it's time to roll out our pie dough, at least for flaky. I don't know if this is the same for mealy. You like to do it directly on the work surface. You're not having us grab parchment paper. You like a chilled marble stone situation if someone has it. The dough will stay cooler. When do you suggest parchment, just out of curiosity?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I'm usually only using parchment for more cookie-like doughs because those have a tendency to stick, even when you use flour, and the parchment just helps them to be a little bit easier to handle. I also will say, though, if it ain't broke, you don't need to fix it. If you like using things, that doesn't... I know some people really like those nonstick mats, the pastry mats.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love those.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And that, I do think the nice thing about that for a lot of people is even the guide of how big it needs to be. So, even though I'm usually rolling it out right on the surface, those tools are really great, especially if they're useful for you.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, I guess I'm like your mom, I hate a mess in my kitchen, and I love those Silpat mats, those pie mats, because it makes it all clean. I also love, again, this is why Erin's so amazing. She's actually telling us exactly, we've all read in every recipe: "lightly floured work surface," but Erin tells you what that is. It's about a handful of flour to dust the surface and the dough, and you often don't need to use any more during rolling if that's what you start with.
So, I thought that was a great tip. So, we're going to position our rolling pin, and I have to ask, though, you've told us before. Tell us your favorite type, your favorite brand.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I'm more of a French tapered-ends pin girl. My favorite one is from a woodworker, so it's not even like a brand that I can super recommend, but what I will say is I like that tapered version. I am starting to have some of the early stages of carpal tunnel, which is a very normal problem for many bakers. I will say that since having that, the pin with handles is a little bit easier on my hands. So, for anyone out there who has arthritis or joint troubles, and if you've been struggling, you might find that that pin with handles is a little bit more useful, even if you normally like the other, because that's something I've learned just in the last year.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to position our rolling pin in the center of our disc, and we're going to apply gentle pressure and push it away from us. Then we're going to return the pin to the center and do the same, this time bringing it towards us. You tell us it may seem awkward at first, but it's great, for so much of this, as you learned back in the day with your grandmother, is about feel and about your senses, and it's a great way, you tell us, to learn how to apply gentle, even pressure to dough rather than just pressing down and rolling the pin back and forth, which is maybe like what we did with Play-Doh when we were little.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
That is one tip that I didn't write specifically in “The Book on Pie” that if I ever get to do a new edition, I will do. But one thing is, if you really struggle to roll out dough, don't make it an inch thick when you put it into the fridge. It's okay while it's more malleable to make it thinner, make it a half an inch thick, so that it's easier to roll out from the start. And then similarly with the flour, you're using as much flour as you need, but we don't want to be adding a whole bunch of extra.
So, just move the dough around while you're rolling it, turn it over, move it on the surface where some of the other flour has gone off to the sides. Moving it and keeping it in motion is going to prevent it from sticking. And that awkward moving forward, coming back. I just find that a lot of people just press down in the center and go back and forth, and then they end up with it thinner in the center, thicker on the edges. You just need to go a little slower while you're learning, and eventually you can pick up the pace.
Jessie Sheehan:
You also say this, which I think is great, which is, don't focus on the diameter of the rolled-out dough. But we do, in the end, want it to be about an inch larger than our pie plate, but we want to focus on our thickness, which is about a quarter inch. And you can... which I do, even though I do use my Silpat mat with the grid. But you can put the pie pan down as a guide while you roll, placing it lightly on top of the dough.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Upside down. Put it down so that the biggest part of the pie pan is down.
Jessie Sheehan:
Great tip. Yeah, you don't want it to be on the bottom. And then you can see when you're getting close and when it's rolled to the proper thickness. I love that we get some instructions on how to move our dough to our metal pan. One way is to use the pin. You can place the pin at the end of the dough, farthest from you, wrap the edge of the dough around the pin, and then roll it towards you to pick it up on the pin.
And then when you put it back down on the plate, you'll go to the far edge of the pie plate and then roll it towards you. I thought that was great. I tend to gently fold in half, gently fold in quarter, lift up, and it goes down?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think that works great, too. The reason that I like the pin is I'm not touching it with my hands, so it's just another time of... if you have hot hands, the pin can be a nice way to do it, but my grandma used to say I had them cool pastry hands, so I could probably do it the way you're doing it just fine. And I also like that technique of the quarters, because I do think it's a little easier to get it centered when you're learning that way, because you can literally put it in the center and then unfold it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly. The first chill we did, not optional, we had to chill that disc. Now, we have an optional chill, which is, you could cover the dough loosely with plastic wrap while it's in that pie plate for 5 to 15 minutes. This is going to be, before we crimp it, we cover it because we don't want the top to dry out, just because the chill helps relax the dough. And if really good technique if you have problems with shrinkage to give it this chill right now. When we're lifting up the dough gently, how you like to place it into the plate?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes. No, I know what you're talking about.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you tell us what that is?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Once you put it in, it's typically hovering over and not touching the pie plate everywhere. So, I like to lift it up at the edges and use other hand to press it down. I want to feel that it's actually making contact with the sides and the base everywhere, that there's no pocket of air or anywhere where it's not touching the pan.
Jessie Sheehan:
Perfect. So, after it has this optional chill, we're going to trim away any excess dough. We're leaving about a half-inch of excess dough all the way around the edges. We're going to use some scissors, which I love. Cutting. There's something so tactile about cutting dough.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Agreed.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love the way it feels. It's weird, but I do. Tell us what scissors you're using, or does it not matter?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Joyce Chen. Joyce Chen baby.
Jessie Sheehan:
I love Joyce Chen scissors.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
But yeah, you can absolutely use other scissors, good kitchen shears, because if they aren't sharp, it will be difficult to get through. But it's so much easier to do it evenly with dough, with scissors, than with a knife or something as well.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. So, we're going to use our scissors to just get that half-inch excess. Well then, we'll tuck the excess dough under itself so the edges of the crust are flush with the outer rim of the pie plate. Press lightly to seal the dough all around. I sometimes make the edges go above the pie plate, but you like flush.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Well, here is my reasoning behind that. I do think mine are still a little above the pie plate, but I like the edge of the pie plate as a support. So, if you want your crimps to stay, we have to remember that's like a little platform for us. But even if it's up, as long as it's well chilled when it bakes, it's still going to have that platform. So, I think both of those still work.
But I do like this folding-under thing. I think that this is really important because you end up with a thicker piece of dough at the edge, which is not only nice when you're eating it because it's like a nice flaky crust bite, but it also makes the crimps hold better because it's a thicker portion of dough.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we have another chill. Very important one. This is before we par-bake. This is 15 to 30 minutes or an hour max. We're going to heat our oven to 425, the rack will be in the lower third, preferably with a baking steel or a stone on it. We just remind people what baking means for those that might not know.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Par-baking stands for partially baking. So, we par-bake any single-crust pie that has a filling that requires baking. So, whether it's your pumpkin pie, your pecan pie, if it was a single-crusted fruit pie, we would still par-bake.
Jessie Sheehan:
And I love this, but pie shells can be baked up to 24 hours in advance because even if they get a little soft or less crispy, they get refreshed and re-crisped when they go back in the oven for the second time. So, I thought that was a great note, and that's another great Thanksgiving note. If you want to get that done a day before, you're going to fill that with your pumpkin pie and filling, go for it.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I'll be making my pie dough on Monday. I'll be par-baking things on Tuesday and making fillings, and then on Wednesday, I will assemble and bake all the pies. That's my plan this year. Yay!
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to dock the bottom of the crimped, well-chilled pie with a fork. You do the sides too, honey, not just the bottom.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yes. I like to dock the base and the sides. And this is especially important, the flakier your dough is, so with mealier doughs, you don't need quite as many dock holes, but with a flaky dough, you want to give it lots of room for steam to escape.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to cut a square of parchment paper, slightly larger than the pie plate. Are we going to crumple it or just place it down? Crumple?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
No, I love the crumpling to make sure that we can get it in there. I definitely didn't do that earlier in my career, but it makes it so much easier.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to crumple that paper. Place it on top of the pie shell, fill with pie weights, making sure you use enough weights to come up to the inner rim of the pie plate. Just a quick shout-out to your pie beans.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
They're not in stock right now, unfortunately, but I'm going to do my best to bring them back in 2026. So, still a shout-out to them because they're a great tool, but anything you use, just make sure you go all the way up to that top edge and get the heck out of here with those dang pie chains. Pie chains, those don't deserve to be on the planet, Jessie.
Jessie Sheehan:
No. Then we're going to place the pie plate directly on a rack, although you can bake it on a parchment or foil-lined baking sheet. You skipped the egg wash for now on the crimp just because the crust is going to darken enough with its multiple trips in and out of the oven. But you say if somebody wants a shininess, they could brush it with a beaten egg white before baking. Before baking now, or before baking the second time, or does it not matter?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
It could be either. Typically, I would do it once you've removed the weights, though, because if we apply any egg wash while the paper is still in there, the paper could stick to the pie crust and the egg wash. But yeah, typically a lot of people say, "By baking it so much, how does it not get too brown?" And the first thing is that the edges are thicker than the base, and the sides are because we've doubled it up.
And the second is I'm not egg washing the edges. So, if you don't egg wash it, it's going to brown a little bit more slowly, and it still is nice to egg wash, especially a double-crust pie. But when I'm par-baking, I typically skip egg wash entirely.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to bake for 15 to 17 minutes until the edges appear set, just starting to lightly brown. Then we'll remove the pie from the oven. Use the parchment paper to lift the weight out of the shell, return the crust to the oven, bake until the bottom appear set, two to three minutes more. We are looking for a little color as well, or just set on the bottom?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think the best way to describe it, and I have so many videos that show this as well, and there's pictures in “The Book on Pie,” but the best way to describe it is that the texture of the base should be matte, it should not look shiny anymore. When it's still raw, it looks shiny, and interestingly, it's darker in color when it's raw. Once it's fully baked, it becomes more pale in color. So, I don't mind seeing a tiny bit one or two brown spots on the base, but we're not really concerned about color. It's more about giving it that head start of baking before we put a really wet filling in it and bake it again.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we are going to let it cool while we make our black-bottom base. So, it's basically a simple ganache, add a punch. I love the word punch here, adds a punch of chocolatey flavor. It helps protect the crust from the moisture from the pecan filling. We're going to place finely chopped, 72% dark chocolate. You have a brand you love?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I love Valrhona as my favorite chocolate.
Jessie Sheehan:
Me too. In a medium heatproof bowl. And then in a small saucepan, we'll bring some cream to a boil over medium heat. Pour the hot cream over the chocolate. Let sit for 15 seconds undisturbed. Can you remind us why we like to let ganache sit undisturbed for a few seconds?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
It's something I learned from my candy instructor in pastry school that allowing that heat to radiantly sit in with the chocolate, it's going to melt it more evenly. If you immediately start stirring, it can melt some parts and not melt the others, but also it allows us to incorporate as little air as possible. Let's get the melting started before we even start stirring, and then we're not going to be stirring it so long that we get a lot of air bubbles in it.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, then we'll stir gently until the ganache is thick and smooth and air bubble-free. And then we'll line a baking sheet, and we know it's like a restaurant supply situation, probably with parchment paper. Place the cooled crust on it, pour the ganache into the bottom of the cooled par-baked pie crust, spread into an even layer, like with a little small offset?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yeah. I usually use my little Liteco offset spatulas, and I will say that even though I say to spread it in an even layer, that's good. If you really like it, you can also come up the sides just a little bit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yum.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
It'll also help that crust protect it and keep it crisp. And also, then you get more bites that have chocolate in it, which I think is nice.
Jessie Sheehan:
Love. And we'll let that set for 15 to 20 minutes before adding the filling. We'll arrange the pecan halves for the pie in an even layer on top of the chocolate. Question about this, do you know how often when you put the pecans in, you pour the filling in, all the pecans rise to the top? Are we doing this decoratively right now? The pecans...
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Great question.
Jessie Sheehan:
What's happening here?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yeah, so two things. One that usually happens, in my opinion, when there's also not enough pecans in the pie. If you use enough pecans when you put the filling in, they shouldn't float because there should be enough in there that the filling is going down. Now, that said again, grandma effect, there are recipes for pecan pie. Pecans are expensive, so there's recipes for pecan pie that are going to use less, and that will happen.
The chocolate also does help, though, because we've got this layer of something already on the bottom, so if you like it to have a particular look on the top, yeah, definitely just put them all in. But then the ones on the top surface take a little time to arrange them.
I have to be honest, I rarely do that. I just think that's not the most exciting thing. Even when they're arranged perfectly. I don't know. I would rather have a cool crimp. I'd rather have piped on some whipped cream in a fun way. Something like that.
Jessie Sheehan:
I hear you. When we pour the pecans into this crust, it sounds like they're going up quite a bit. It's not just the bottom of the pie.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
No, definitely it should. With the chocolate in there, it should come fairly close to the top edge, not all the way to the top edge, but it'll come pretty far up. That's also why some recipes will use chopped pecans, but I really like to just use the pecan halves. I like the bigger pieces. When you cut it, you're still getting littler pieces, but that's why I use pecan halves, it also fills the volume of the pan a little bit better.
Jessie Sheehan:
Now, we're going to make the pecan pie filling, and I love this note. It's best to err on the side of underbaking this pie to keep the filling at just that right level of delightfully gooey. Yes, please.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I want pecan pie to have candy bar vibes. Do you know what I mean?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, my God. Honey, of course I do.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
That's what a pecan pie is good for. It's very caramelly. It reminds me of a candy bar in the best way. And now that we've added chocolate to it, even more so, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, so we're going to drop the temp from 425 when we par-bake to 375. Keep the rack in the bottom third, preferably with that baking steel or stone. In a medium bowl, we're going to whisk some melted butter, some dark brown sugar, some maple syrup. Is maple instead of the traditional corn syrup, or Lyles, or honey?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I'm so glad you asked. Yes, I wanted the pecan pie in “The Book on Pie.” I really wanted it to not have corn syrup in it because I hear from people a lot that the thing they don't like about pecan pie is how sweet it is. Pecan pie lovers love how sweet it is. Again, they like the candy bar effect, but we already know maple and pecan is a match made in heaven.
When you eat this pie, I don't think you're going to go, "Ugh, maple." Because it's not a lot of syrup that we're using. But yes, it takes the place a little bit of that corn syrup, and it also adds a complexity to the flavor where we're still adding a sweetener, but we're adding something that gives us a layer that isn't just pure sugar, pure sweet. It gives it a little something different.
It's my favorite thing about this pie is that again, when I taste it, I wouldn't think, "Hmm, maple," or maple pecan, it doesn't give that vibe, but it just adds something to it that the corn syrup alone, and it's also then not as goopy. It's more caramelly instead of that... the grocery store pecan pie is very goopy.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's also why I tend to use Lyle's because I feel like Lyle's is corn syrup-esque in terms of its viscosity, but it's slightly more caramelly, slightly less sweet. So, we have our sugar, our butter, our maple syrup. We're going to add some eggs, egg yolk. Is that just for some traditional unctuousness?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Yeah, I like custard pies in general. I like there to be some of that richness. So, you'll see in a lot of my custard fillings that there's sometimes one or two extra yolks. Sometimes it's also during the development phase of trying to get the exact right amount of filling. Sometimes I'm increasing, and I don't need another whole egg. And if it's a custard pie, I would stick with the yolk instead.
Jessie Sheehan:
We'll add some cream, some vanilla. I thought this was interesting, some almond extract. How come almond?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I like to add just a drop or two of almond extract almost anything I'm making with nuts because I think it brings out the toasty nut flavor. Now, my best friend in the whole wide world hates almond extract with a fiery passion that burns deep within her soul. So, if you are out there and you're thinking, "Oh my God, why is she doing that? You can absolutely leave it out." I'm talking like a drop or two that I like to put in, and it's just something I've done ever since I first started baking. If it's peanut anything, I like that little tiny bit of almond. It just... I don't know. It brings out the nutty flavors, I think.
Jessie Sheehan:
And is there a brand of extract that you like?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I generally am using Nielsen-Massey.
Jessie Sheehan:
We're going to add some fine sea salt and then cinnamon. I thought this was an interesting addition. Why the cinnamon, and what's the brand?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I do like the Burlap & Barrel cinnamons. They have some really nice warm choices. You're actually going to see this in a lot of recipes that I do a very small amount of spices. This is something I learned from my great-great-grandma, who used to add very tiny amounts of spices into her cookies, so small that wasn't super discernible, but everyone would always say, "What is that? What is that?"
In the case of this pecan pie, I think that little bit of cinnamon brings a warmth to it, and it's a very small amount. It's not going to be a super punch of cinnamon-y flavor. If you really don't like cinnamon, you could absolutely leave it out. But I really like that warmth that it gives.
Jessie Sheehan:
So, we're going to gently pour the custard over the pecans. We'll transfer the baking sheet to the oven. We'll bake until the crust is golden brown. The crimp, the custard appears set on the outside. Still slightly jiggly in the center. I like to say JELL-O.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
That's such a good way of putting it, like the JELL-O jiggle. I think that's a great descriptor, and it should look fairly set at the edges. I think that's one thing that confuses people. If it doesn't look set at the edge, it's still too liquid.
Jessie Sheehan:
And then that's going to be about 35 to 40 minutes. We're going to cool completely before slicing and serving. You like some whipped cream with this could be nice and either sweetened or not sweetened. I also remember bonding with you about our love of a drizzle of heavy cream on pie. Would you do that on a pecan pie or only on a fruit pie?
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
Oh gosh, no. I would do that any chance I get with anything. It doesn't even have to be pie.
Jessie Sheehan:
No, I know.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think that there's something again, because it's the coolness, you still get that. Heavy cream is so thick that it's almost like on glaze. It's like pouring a little something on. I also have a recipe in “The Book on Pie: that I think is under-loved. So, we can give it a little love here on your podcast, which is my whipped cream sauce.
I'm saying that with air quotes because what it is just under whipped cream. It's cream that's only whipped enough to coat a spoon but not thick enough to hold any peak. And what's so lovely about that is it's that same vibe you and I love of the cold cream being poured over, but it coats it a little more evenly, so you can get some in every bite.
But I think that's what you and I said we like about it is with whipped cream, it's like then I have to go with each bite and dip into the whipped cream, and then eat my slice of pie. If you're just drizzling cold heavy cream, it's all one saucy situation.
Jessie Sheehan:
And also, cold heavy cream on like a crisp or a crumble. There is no other way. I know people say ice cream-
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I agree.
Jessie Sheehan:
... but I'm like, put a pint of cream next to me and then I'll just keep drizzling on.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And you know what I think that is also a response to, is not wanting more sweetness. I think you... and don't get me wrong, I love ice cream with this stuff, but that's more sugar. Whereas, when I make whipped cream, it's often unsweetened and the cold heavy cream, there's no more sugar. It's just getting that coolness, that richness. I just love that.
Jessie Sheehan:
Another good Thanksgiving make-ahead for this pie. You can make this pie up to a day ahead and store it at room temp. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today, Erin. And I just want to say that you are my cherry and my pecan pie.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
And I love that this whole time I think you've been saying "pecan," and I've been saying "pecan."
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, pecan. I know.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
I think it's perfect because both are correct, right?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Erin Jeanne McDowell:
So, this way we've got it covered in both directions. Thank you so much for having me. And as you know, I could just talk to you all day.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's it for today's show. Thank you to Diamond of California Nuts and California Prunes for supporting our show. You can find today's recipe at cherrybombe.substack.com. Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry Pie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and tell your pals about us. She's My Cherry Pie is a production of The Cherry Bombe Podcast Network. Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker, and Jenna Sadhu. Thank you so much for listening to She's My Cherry Pie, and happy baking.