Jessie Sheehan Transcript
Kerry Diamond:
Hi, everyone. You are listening to Radio Cherry Bombe, and I'm your host, Kerry Diamond, coming to you from Brooklyn, New York. I have a touch of laryngitis as some of you longtime listeners might be able to hear, but we're going to make the most of it.
Our guest is Jessie Sheehan, recipe developer and author of four baking books, including the brand new “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Snackable Bakes,” which is out tomorrow. Jessie is also the host of Cherry Bombe's baking podcast, She's My Cherry Pie. Each Saturday Jessie talks to the most talented bakers and pastry chefs in the country and does a deep dive into their signature bakes. If you haven't checked out the show yet, please do. It is a fun, relaxing listen, and you will learn a lot. I know I have. Tell all the bakers in your life. She's My Cherry Pie is also the number one baking podcast in America, which we are very proud of. Anyway, I'm thrilled to welcome Jessie back to the show and for all of you to learn about her career and her dramatic pivots. A lot of takeaways from Jessie's journey, and of course, she tells us all about her new book. Stay tuned for our chat.
By the way, Jessie's cookbook tour kicks off tomorrow in New York City and Cherry Bombe is co-hosting her New York, San Francisco, Boston, and Chicago events. You can snag tickets at cherrybombe.com. I'll be at the Boston and Chicago stops and would love to see you. Big thanks to our friends at Kerrygold and King Arthur for supporting Jessie's tour.
We've got so much going on at Cherry Bombe as per usual. We just revealed our fall issue cover with ice cream queen, Jeni Britton. The issue is dedicated to the creative class and packed with stories and recipes from some fascinating folks. If you love the intersection of art and food and culture, you will love this issue. You can pick up a copy at your favorite culinary bookstore or magazine shop or boutique, places like YOWIE in Philadelphia, Moon Palace books in Minneapolis, and Heath Ceramics in San Francisco. Also, we have a special surprise magazine announcement tomorrow, so check out our Instagram for the reveal.
Now let's check in with today's guest. Jessie Sheehan, welcome to Radio Cherry Bombe.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you for having me, Kerry. Really excited to be here.
Kerry Diamond:
Jessie hosts our baking podcast. She's My Cherry Pie. It is the number one baking podcast in the country, so congratulations, Jessie. That's a big achievement.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you so much. Also, can I just say for the record that it was your brilliant idea, not only to have a baking podcast, but what's cool about the podcast is that we do this deep dive into the guest's signature bake, a recipe, so it sets it apart. It's not just an interview situation. What I love hearing from listeners is people are really learning things and think it's really cool to hear a recipe be broken down the way we do.
Kerry Diamond:
It's delightful and it's nerdy at the same time.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, and I would say delightful nerd would kind of be a little, like that describes me. Maybe a cool, delightful nerd. Can nerds be cool? I think so.
Kerry Diamond:
100%. I can totally bake. I can follow a recipe and make great things, but I would never in a million years call myself a baker. But I love listening to the show and I think it does two things for the listener. I think it's both a very relaxing listen, which is something that we all need these days and wildly informative. I learned about all this equipment I never knew about and techniques.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean really just amazing stuff. I totally agree with you. What happens is that Kerry and the team, they always send me the recording just so I can make tweaks and make sure everything flows. Our amazing producer Jenna does the edits, but I was just listening to one in which a guest tells us about these huge biscuit cutters, but they're they're size of cakes, but you use them to cut out cake from a sheet pan, and of course I've heard of that. Natasha was on the pod and Christina was on the pod, and they both talked about them.
Kerry Diamond:
Natasha Pickowicz and Christina Tosi.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Sorry to be like dropping one name. That's an example of a tool that I do not have that I need to get. I feel like even professional bakers will learn something from the podcast.
Kerry Diamond:
Absolutely. Joanne Chang, remember all the techniques she talked about, the window pane? Is that where you kind of stretch the dough out?
Jessie Sheehan:
You stretch the dough to make sure it's proofed properly? She and I talked about her sticky buns, her world-famous sticky buns. She talked a lot about the window pane and how once you can pull the dough a teeny bit and see through it like a window pane, then it's properly proofed and it doesn't rip.
Kerry Diamond:
Joanne is the founder of Flower in Boston and Jessie, we'll talk about this in a few minutes. We'll actually be stopping by there as part of her book tour, but it is such a relaxing listen, which is why we wanted to drop it on Saturday mornings. The idea being you could make a cup of coffee or a cup of tea and just hang out and listen to it and start your day.
Jessie Sheehan:
I feel like a lot of listeners are like on morning walks. They're always telling me that they take me on their walk, which I love. I bumped into someone at Zoë Bakes, Zoe François's book talk last week who just came up to me and said, I'm here for Zoë, but I just have to tell you I love the podcast. She said what she loves about it, and I love this, is even if she doesn't recognize the name of the guest or recognize the baked good, she now finds herself just listening religiously regardless because she'll learn something. So I loved that.
Kerry Diamond:
I do want to talk about the name because we did struggle to come up with a name and then landed on, She's My Cherry Pie. Some of you may or may not know this, but it's the name of kind of like glam pop metal song-
Jessie Sheehan:
Seventies, eighties?
Kerry Diamond:
No, from the eighties.
Jessie Sheehan:
Eighties.
Kerry Diamond:
With the most sexist video ever. But anyway, if you watch it today, it's definitely cringy. But we decided to reclaim, She's My Cherry Pie. Now it flows off the tongue, I'm like, oh yeah, She's My Cherry Pie. Of course. It's so perfect.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh good.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, thank you for all the hard work you've put into the show. It's not easy, but you make it seem effortless.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, thanks.
Kerry Diamond:
So thank you. Jessie has a great backstory that she doesn't really get to talk about on the show because she's interviewing other people. So I want her to talk about it a little bit today, and I think it'll be very inspiring for a lot of you who are either making your own career pivots or trying to figure out your path forward, but also that you could do anything at any age. Career changers. Yeah.
Jessie Sheehan:
Career changers unite and also older ones.
Kerry Diamond:
Let see if I have this straight. Did you want to be an actress first or a lawyer first?
Jessie Sheehan:
Actress. No, I was an actress from-
Kerry Diamond:
Or actor. Say actor today.
Jessie Sheehan:
Hello. Sorry. I was an actor when I graduated from college for about six years.
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, you were a working actor for six years?
Jessie Sheehan:
Well, working actor with a restaurant job. You remember Seven A, on the corner of Seventh Street and Avenue A, that was where I worked. Then I had other restaurant, remember Nick and Eddie. Anyway, I had lots of restaurant jobs. It was my one true love from when I was in fifth grade until I was in my late twenties. This is kind of the line I always say, but I still think it's true. It's like there's no meritocracy.
It doesn't matter if you work really hard and it also doesn't really matter if you're really good because you still may not get to where you want to be. So I was tired of getting on an airplane and sitting next to someone who's like, oh, what do you do? I'd be like, I'm an actor. They would be like, oh, what restaurant? Ha ha. Meaning you must actually be a waitress, and they were sadly not wrong.
Kerry Diamond:
Were you booking any jobs?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I did a lot of regional theater, so I would leave the city and go and do theater in different states.
Kerry Diamond:
What were some of your favorite roles?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, good question.
Kerry Diamond:
Can you sing? Were you doing musical theater?
Jessie Sheehan:
No, I cannot sing at all, tragically, no. I would say one of my favorite roles, this was actually, I worked at the Actors Theater of Louisville for a year in the early nineties. There was a play called “La Bête.” I played a maid who couldn't speak and would only tell the other actors in the show, the other characters in the show could only communicate with them via pantomime. So it was an incredible opportunity where everything I said had to be pantomimed. It was a comedy, and I had a crazy awesome dress with these huge exaggerated hips. So it was a hoop skirt situation, but the hoop only went out to the side. But anyway, that was a really fun, fun role. I always liked being funny and that role really spoke to me, but I did that for a while until I just felt like sad. I just was sad.
Kerry Diamond:
Was it A lot of auditioning?
Jessie Sheehan:
A lot of auditioning and a lot of rejection.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be right back with today's guest. Be sure to check out the events calendar on cherrybombe.com. We've got a lot going on and would love to see you in one of the cities where we're hosting events. There's Jessie Sheehan's cookbook tour. There's Jubilee 2025 in Manhattan next year, and this October's Jubilee Wine Country in Calistoga, California. You can find tickets and all the details on cherrybombe.com. Hopefully you heard this episode with Liza Colón-Zayas from “The Bear” who plays Tina and she talked about decades of rejection.
Jessie Sheehan:
100%. I mean, that's the thing. I say this about my experience, but one could argue I did give up. Yes, I listened to that episode. That is a hundred percent true. People go years and years. There was a character in some show I was just watching that I adored, and of course this is the worst story because I've no details to add to it, but the idea being that the lead actor whose fantastic couldn't get work for 20 years and now is huge. But anyway, I was an actor and funnily enough, in bringing full circle to podcasting, right at the end of my acting career when I had... dun dun da da! Applied to law school and was headed to law school, my agent, my acting agent suddenly started getting me tons of voiceover work and I was like, oh my gosh, of course I'm getting what I've always because believe you me, by the end, Kerry, all I wanted was to work. I was like, okay, I'll just do commercials. I don't even care anymore. So I think that's kind of interesting. There was a voice moment back in the day.
Kerry Diamond:
Law school.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
Did you pluck that out of thin air or was there something always in the back of your head about law?
Jessie Sheehan:
No, it was plucked but not plucked very far from my family because my dad was the dean of a law school and he had been a working lawyer, et cetera, and a law professor. So it was part of how I grew up. It was part of our conversation at home, but I really did it just because I love school. Again, back to delightful, cool, delightful nerd. I love school. I love learning, I love writing. I wanted to go to school to do all of those things. Then I thought, oh, I'll probably like being a lawyer, of course I did not. My father kept saying to me, are you sure this a good idea? I was like, yes.
Kerry Diamond:
What kind of law did you want to practice?
Jessie Sheehan:
So I didn't even really know Kerry. It wasn't the best decision. Peeps this is not the moment where you're taking notes and saying, I should go to law school. I didn't really know. I knew I wanted to be a litigator, like somebody who argued in court again, using my acting background, my fantastic voice over voice, using all of those skills. I know I didn't want to be like a contract lawyer and sit in a room with other lawyers writing contracts. What I ended up doing is pursuing entertainment law. To me that seemed like it would be a sexy area of the law, and I thought, oh, I'll be working maybe with movie stars and musicians and this, and I ended up working for a small firm that did music litigation.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, it makes sense to me because you can talk the talk.
Jessie Sheehan:
A hundred percent, hundred percent. There was something that appealed to me about that world, and it still does. I'd clerked for a judge before I started practicing, that I enjoyed. I was at the Federal Courthouse in Manhattan, listening to really cool cases, and it was all writing, literally. I clerked for year. I practiced for two, went on maternity leave, and listeners, I am still on maternity leave.
Kerry Diamond:
I didn't know that. I thought you started baking on the side when you were a lawyer.
Jessie Sheehan:
Not at all. Not at all. I left my law firm when my older son, who's now 21 was born, maternity leave action. I was like, bye, see you guys soon and never went back. Then about two years later, I had two little boys. It wasn't even that I had started to bake a ton Kerry. It was that I loved sweets. I do have a voracious sweet tooth and now salt tooth. I loved baking. I was baking a little bit at home. These were the days of not only “Martha Stewart Living,” and one of my best friends, Anna was an editor there, so I had a subscription, etc. There was also, Martha had this smaller magazine called “Everyday Food,” which I was obsessed with.
I not only cooked from it, I baked from it. Somebody had given me an early Nigella Lawson book, Claudia Fleming, who's also been a guest on my pod who I love so much. Claudia's book, “The Last Course,” all of these books had been gifted to me as my friend sort of recognized I was into baking with these two little kids at home and I was starting to bake a little bit. Basically, I went into a bakery in my neighborhood called Baked and literally just said, please, can I work for you for free? I just want to learn everything that you guys are doing.
They thought I was insane because I was to them, a very, very old lady, although I was in my mid to late thirties.
Kerry Diamond:
Were they suspect?
Jessie Sheehan:
They certainly were not going to hire me. Just being an older person and a mom and being willing to learn and work for free, that was pretty unique, pretty unusual. So they didn't quite know what to do with me.
Kerry Diamond:
Did they think you were a spy or wanted to open your own bakery?
Jessie Sheehan:
Such a good question. I don't even think they thought that far ahead. I just think they thought, no.
Kerry Diamond:
What did you learn from all of that? I know you are a happy person. You've got great kids, you've got a great husband, you've got a really nice life. So you don't want to go back and be like, I wish I hadn't done that, because your life would be different now. But if you were to give advice to someone who thinks they maybe are not in the right profession, they do want to pivot, since you've done it a few times, looking back, what would you have done differently?
Jessie Sheehan:
That's a good question. In fact, when I really think about it, I don't think I would change anything because the acting feeds what I do today. The lawyering feeds what I do today, and I also feel like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I really do and life is full of challenges as we all know, and full of disappointment and full of rejection. I know just now from having my new book out, it's so stressful and uncomfortable. My husband calls it compare and despair. This is an amazing cookbook season as Kerry knows better than anyone because I'm sure you've received a million books, an amazing cookbook season with an amazing group of cookbooks out there and writers out there, and it's a very competitive playing field right now. So I'm not saying that it all rolls off my back and I'm like, oh, no problem.
But a long career of not getting everything I wanted at every step of the way I think has really fed me. So I wouldn't want to take out any of those steps that I've gone through because they taught me a lot. Another way of answering it is, oh, I just wish that when I was in my twenties, I had been interested in baking and it just started that way, but it just wasn't in the cards for me. I don't think I would've ever discovered baking if I hadn't been an actor, if I hadn't been a lawyer, and if I hadn't been a stay-at-home mom, because all of those things contributed to my realization of what I really wanted to do.
Kerry Diamond:
I think looking from the outside, you followed your passions and you realized when it was time to move on. I think that's maybe one of the things that you could teach folks.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, I do think that's true, but people will ask me about my journey and ask me what advice I would have. One thing I would say is what I was trying to do by working for free, I was able to do that. Not everyone can just say, oh, okay, and I only did it a few hours a week in the beginning, and then they paid me I think like $9 an hour. But I would say that I just want to be cognizant of the fact that not everyone can do that, but if there is a way in your life that you can attempt to pursue the thing you want to pursue while still working your job, that puts food on the table.
I do think that's a great beginning. I also think, at least in the food industry, it's much harder to do what I did now. I think baking and food are much trendier, sexier, bring that word back, now than they were when I was doing this, and it's probably not as easy to just walk in and be like, hey, I didn't go to culinary school. I don't know anything. Will you teach me? But doesn't mean you can't try.
Kerry Diamond:
Well, there's no barrier to entry today. That's the difference. Thanks to social media, there are so many ways to learn. You don't have to pay for culinary school anymore. You can watch all the videos that are out there, and if you want to start creating and put things into the universe, the tools are there.
Jessie Sheehan:
It's so true.
Kerry Diamond:
Jessie, I think another thing that you show everyone is you will never have one linear path. I think about so many people, we're friends with, even myself, I didn't know I would own restaurants. I didn't know I would launch a magazine. I didn't know I would completely leave the career I thought I would have forever. You're just a great example of that, that there's not one path, but sometimes when you turn around and look at all the different things that you've done, they start to make sense.
Jessie Sheehan:
Also something, and I listened to your episode with Reese Witherspoon's podcast company, and I loved learning. I know your story obviously, but your experience of being offered a job and just being like, okay, I'm going to take it. I had no idea this was going to be my path, but I'm going to take it. I think that idea of being light on your feet, it's funny. I'm a very black and white person and a very rigid person, and it's really hard. I can eat the same thing every morning for breakfast. It's a cliche, but don't ever say no.
I almost never say no just because I never know where something is going to lead me now that means I'm busier than I probably need to be, because I'm maybe doing things I don't need to be doing. But I really believe in take whatever opportunity comes down the pike. The only other thing I'll say about both you and me is we're a little bit older in this industry than a lot of people. I've been doing a lot of collaborative videos to support and promote my new book and all my peeps. I love them so much. They're all much younger than me, and it's fun. I mean, they're my pals, doesn't matter. So to not be afraid of age.
Kerry Diamond:
Let's talk about your book. I know you're so proud of it.
Jessie Sheehan:
I am. I am.
Kerry Diamond:
The title's a mouthful. Tell us the title.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Get ready. I hope you're sitting. “Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes.”
Kerry Diamond:
How did you come up with the title?
Jessie Sheehan:
So essentially the book before this one was called “Snackable Bakes,” and it was an easy-peasy baking book. So essentially a book of sweet baked goods that all take about 20 minutes to assemble, usually are baked and ready to eat within an hour call for ingredients that are already in your pantry and only a bowl and a whisk and a spatula. There's no fancy equipment. Those are kind of my hallmarks or my definition of an easy-peasy bake. There was definitely a moment for that book, pandemic-ish and also, I don't know, I just think people appreciate being able to make something delicious, but in a very short amount of time. So this book is essentially the savory sibling of that book.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's a cute way to put it.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. All of the same tenets of an easy-peasy bake, the short ingredient list and the short time that it takes to assemble something, but everything has cheese, herbs, is crispy or salty. I can't even remember my own title. I think that “Savory Baking,” Erin McDowell, who was a guest on my podcast who you and I both love, she wrote a savory baking book. America's Test Kitchen has done a savory baking book, but there are not a lot of savory baking books out there, and I am hopeful and optimistic that that is something that will really scratch a culinary itch that people didn't even realize needed itching.
Again, because the recipes are easy and accessible. It's funny, I was constantly kind of battling with my editor a little bit because she was pushing the appetizer-y aspect of the book, and I was pushing the, no, no, no, no, you can eat it for dinner because I have galettes in it and spoon breads and bread puddings and Yorkshire puddings. So I do have hefty enough baked goods that you could serve it for a meal, but I also do have a snack chapter and a load of different savory cookies and crackers, like cheesy biscotti and a really yummy blue cheese cookie that has a blue cheese thumb drop. So it's like a cookie made of blue cheese that you press your thumb into the center and fill with a figgy jam. But just like-
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that sounds so good. I love blue cheese and figs. Tell me your favorite recipe.
Jessie Sheehan:
I think right now I am loving cheesy old bay biscuits, but they're called butter swim biscuits, so they have cheddar cheese, they have old bay seasoning, but they're called butter swim because you literally melt butter in a pan in the oven, add the biscuit batter on top of the melted butter, stick it back in the oven. The batter absorbs the butter. I don't even exactly know what happens in there Kerry, but when you pull that out-
Kerry Diamond:
You got to call Kenji Lopez.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, exactly. Kenji, are you listening? Unbelievably delicious. Just in a really easy-peasy, unusual way of making a biscuit, and I love them-
Kerry Diamond:
Did you come up with that term?
Jessie Sheehan:
Not at all. Butter swim biscuits are a thing. It's funny when you're researching a book and developing recipes for it, there are a lot of recipes that you just come up with, oh, I'm going to have some little baby croissant here that I'm going to make from puff pastry, and I'm going to have biscotti that tastes like a Cheez-It, and I'm going to have a certain kind of olive oil salt cracker. But then there are a lot of things where you're like, okay, that's 70 recipes, but the book's supposed to have a hundred. Then I do, I won't lie, I start a little Googling, so I just will Google like biscuits, unusual biscuits, unique biscuits, different biscuits, and see all the ones that come up. So I discovered butter swim biscuits online.
Kerry Diamond:
How interesting. Never heard of those before. How did easy-peasy become your thing?
Jessie Sheehan:
Such a good question. It actually is totally me Kerry. When I am home and I have to make something for a dinner party, for a friend or for my sons, one of my kids, my husband. I don't want to do a project bake, and I just am assuming, hoping have found that there are others who feel similarly.
Kerry Diamond:
So you and Claire Saffitz are not going to be making a croquembouche anytime soon.
Jessie Sheehan:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. No.
Kerry Diamond:
We also have your cookbook tour to look forward to. The kickoff party is on the 24th. This is airing the day before. So if there's still tickets left, you should go get one. It's going to be fun. What can people expect from this tour? You're making a lot of tour stops.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, there's a lot going on in New York that first week of September 24th, which is really fun. I'm doing a collab cream cheese with PopUp Bagels, so there'll be a cream cheese that they will have on sale from the 18th of September through the 24th, which will be based on a recipe from my book, and I'm doing a cool donut collab with Wildair, which I'm really excited about. I'll be at Union Square Green Market that Saturday selling books and giving everybody treats. I'm going to do something with Umber and Mazadar. She's going to interview me and they're going to have that butter swim biscuit on their menu. She's going to do a little Umber twist, I think, but that will be on the menu. I'm going to do a talk at Arquistratus with Deb Perelman who's been on the pod twice and on your pod. I'm doing a great dinner at Edy's Grocer on that Wednesday. But all of this information is available via my Instagram or via my website, which is both Jessie Sheehan Bakes.
Kerry Diamond:
We'll be doing something in Boston together.
Jessie Sheehan:
Then I'm the luckiest person alive because I'm also working with Cherry Bombe on a bunch of different events that are kind of, She's My Cherry Pie related, which is so amazing. I'm going to be in San Francisco on October 8th at Canteen, and I'm going to be in Chicago on the 15th at Mindy's Bakery, and I love Mindy. She was a guest, as was Nicole.
Kerry Diamond:
That was one of the best episodes.
Jessie Sheehan:
Aww, I love her. We just were in love with each other. I don't know what happened. Then October 23rd in Boston with King Arthur and also with Cherry Bombe and also... Yes. I also just want to thank Kerrygold and King Arthur for supporting and sponsoring not only my podcast, but also the book tour.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, we love those folks. Classy brands, great product.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. I will be with Cherry Bombe at the end of the month at Jubilee Wine Country.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes. October 26 and 27. That's a lot. That's going to be a lot of fun. Well, I'm really looking forward to the tour. Let's talk about your life as an author. This is your fourth book.
Jessie Sheehan:
It is.
Kerry Diamond:
How did you get into writing books?
Jessie Sheehan:
Again, this is another, just to bring it full circle back to the discussion about what advice I would give people. It's like you never know what you are getting from the job you are doing. You might think you're doing one thing and it ends up taking you off into a completely different path, which again is why, at least for me, I hate saying no because I just never know where the thing might go. Case and point, when I started working at the bakery in Brooklyn, and just to be clear, I started literally vacuum packing granola. They did not hand me a bowl and say, can you please make granola? They said, can you please pack our granola? I couldn't even use the vacuum sealer, but the guys who owned that bakery, they had just opened the bakery, got a lot of attention from Oprah and from Martha.
They all said, oh my God, this is the best brownie at this bakery called Baked ever. So they were asked to write a cookbook, and when they started on that first book, they wrote four, and I helped with all of them, but when they started on the first one, they wanted me to be their tester because I didn't really know what I was doing, so I was a perfect home baker because I was enthusiastic baker, but I didn't have a lot of experience, so I tested recipes for that book. Then the next book, they had me test, but also develop recipes for the book, and we kind of went along from there. So I got into cookbook writing and met Matt and Nato's, book agents, etc. Like who knew? I didn't walk into that bakery thinking, I really love writing. I think I might want to be a cookbook writer at all, but that is where they led me, and that is where I ended up.
Kerry Diamond:
Sometimes people can see skills in you that you don't see in yourself.
Jessie Sheehan:
100% and something that I loved so much, I thought I just wanted to learn how to make granola. I didn't know. I actually wanted to develop recipes for granola and then write about why I love granola and why I wrote the recipe I did.
Kerry Diamond:
It turned out you enjoyed the process.
Jessie Sheehan:
Loved it, loved it. I still remember feeling so blessed that I was at home in my kitchen developing recipes for the bakery I worked at. They were paying me to do something I loved. It was just like, it was so exciting.
Kerry Diamond:
I feel like you haven't had an easy cookbook career. I feel like you've had to fight for each book.
Jessie Sheehan:
It is so true.
Kerry Diamond:
Correct?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes. Partly I think that is because the climate has changed so much. Partly it may be that when I wrote my first book, which was called “Icebox Cakes,” it was co-written, and it came out in 2015, and I was such a newbie. I didn't quite even know what I was doing when that book came out. Again, it was a very different environment. Is it fair to say, I was going to say...
Kerry Diamond:
Social media.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. There was no social media. I mean, obviously people were writing cookbooks, but not like the way they are today. Not like food media, all of that didn't have the power that it has today. I very quickly was able to write another book because the publishers, Chronicle books liked “Icebox Cakes,” and they wanted me to write something else, and I wrote a book called “The Vintage Baker,” but I had a lot of trouble selling it. It just never sold that well, and therefore took a long-
Kerry Diamond:
Selling it to the public, not selling it to a publisher.
Jessie Sheehan:
Correct, correct. Yes. The publisher was on board with me doing the book, but it didn't end up doing all that well, although it's kind of had a slow burn, I would say now it probably has done well and it's still in print, but “Snackable Bakes” was the first book I felt like I wrote. Partly, I think why maybe it has done better than the rest is that it really back to this question of why easy peasy. It really is so me, both of these last two books flow out of me so easily because I'm just writing the things that I really want to be making, and I'm not writing for anybody else. I'm writing for myself and for the people that I think are going to enjoy what I enjoy. So I would say that, yeah, I've never been someone who wrote a book and everybody just went crazy for it, and it sold a million copies and people were banging down my door. That book, “Snackable Bakes” did become one of the New York Times best cookbooks of 2022.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I remember that. That was so exciting.
Jessie Sheehan:
I was ready to retire. I was like, I have arrived everyone. I'm done. I will see you on the other side. But no, I did not retire, but I was so happy. There's something about that reinforcement from your peers that is just too good, but again, full circle to what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Of course, I want that for this book. That may not happen for this book. I do say the secret to life is low expectations, and that really bums people out because they don't think I'm manifesting enough, but all I'm saying is-
Kerry Diamond:
Wait, did you just say the secret to life is low expectations? Okay.
Jessie Sheehan:
My dad taught me that.
Kerry Diamond:
You and I are so different. It's so funny.
Jessie Sheehan:
That's what my dad taught me, but I do feel like being able to visualize it not happening is as important for me as visualizing it happening. I can't afford to, nor do I want to go into a deep depression in December when the list comes out and my book's not on it. I'm finding that right now, Kerry with reviews. The book is on the Esquire list, which is amazing, and the book is just written up in the Globe. Boston Globe is my hometown newspaper, and those hits are amazing, but I'm also not on a lot of lists. These roundups that media outlets do can be a little painful. But anyway, “Snackable Bakes” did well, and I was able for the first time ever to write a book and within a couple of months have another book deal, and that felt so amazing. Although, be careful what you wish for because I was also so tired. I was like, write another book.
Kerry Diamond:
Cookbooks are hard.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, they are.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. We learned that when we did the “Cherry Bombe” cookbook.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know. When is the next one coming, Kerry? I think it should be a baking one.
Kerry Diamond:
Has someone sent you to ask me that question? I've got a bunch of ideas. In fact, too many ideas. The cookbook world has changed so much.
Jessie Sheehan:
So much.
Kerry Diamond:
I'm not a big fan of doing the same thing over and over again. I still have a lot of thinking to do just about how we're going to do it and roll it out. Is there a video component? I tend to be a 360 thinker. I don't like to just put something out there and that's it. It's like there's got to be the podcast and the conference and the this and that, and that's not necessarily healthy. Sometimes the thing can just be the thing. But I want to go back to low expectations because even though I laughed when you said that, one thing that I have definitely learned is not that you want to have low expectations or plan for the worst, but sometimes when you go into a new venture, you should really think to yourself, what's the best that can happen and what's the worst? Be prepared either way because I did not do that with Cherry Bombe or the restaurants that I used to own and I wish I had.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. It's funny, my therapist just said to me a few weeks ago, I was so worried about, again, back to this thing in the fall and in the spring, media outlets do these roundups of the quote, the best cookbooks of the fall or the best cookbooks of the spring, sometimes the best cookbooks of the year, and I was really starting to panic. How am I going to get through looking at those lists and not being on them? She said to me, what's the worst that can happen? Your book isn't on a single list. Will you never write another cookbook? It's sort of what you're saying.
Kerry Diamond:
Does it help for you to know that I don't even look at those lists?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. Yes, it does.
Kerry Diamond:
I couldn't tell you what's on those lists.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes, it does.
Kerry Diamond:
The only reason I even tell our team to look at them is to make sure we haven't missed anybody because we like to celebrate Happy Pub Day and make sure we're just on top of who is publishing books. I never look at those and think, oh, why wasn't so-and-so on this list? Or how did so-and-so get on this list.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, that does make me feel better. That does make me feel better. But I think you're right. It might be managing expectations is better than saying low because I do believe in manifesting. One thin. I feel like I don't, you probably never get nervous, but one thing that happens to me-
Kerry Diamond:
That's not true.
Jessie Sheehan:
Professionally when I'm nervous, but I am very good at this point in my fifties of just being able to put on the kind of happy, enthusiastic, very confident, but also humble part of me, and just assume that everything's going to go fine. I'm just aware of almost working from the outside in, rather than access the nervous feelings. I'm like, it's going to be great. What are you kidding? This going to be great. Who are you kidding?
Kerry Diamond:
I do get nervous. I do find the more preparation I can do, the less nervous I get. But some people still make me nervous, and every time I have to interview Nigella Lawson, oh my God, she makes me so nervous. I love her so much, and she's one of my favorite people to interview, but she's so freaking smart. Oh my God. Just her vocabulary.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, I know. Well, her writing is-
Kerry Diamond:
And her writing-
Jessie Sheehan:
Incredible.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. She wrote for us once or twice, and I just was like, I'm not going to edit a word of this. We're just going to publish what she turned in. So yes, sometimes people make me nervous, but preparation folks, that helps with.
Jessie Sheehan:
I mean, that's the thing. One thing I think that I have going for me or that helps me in this journey is that I am a really hard worker. I mean, not that we all aren't hard workers, but I do work hard, and I guess I have high expectations for myself, even if I have low ones... the rest of the world is going to fine me or think of me. But I do feel like I try to be very prepared so that I can be less anxious. Although sometimes Kerry, I do find that I can trust myself.
I am finding that some of these long scripts I'm writing for my interviews are flowing out of me a lot faster than they used to, and that is so thrilling. I remember Jocelyn Delk Adams, Grandbaby Cakes. Hi, Jocelyn.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, we love Jocelyn.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, who was one of my first interviews ever. I think I spent literally 8, 9, 10 hours because I wanted to read every cookbook because I have a lot of her books. I just wanted to know everything about her. She has a huge blog. I wanted to dig deep into the blog, and I don't need to do that anymore, and that feels really, really good.
Kerry Diamond:
Okay. Jessie, we're going to do a speed round.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay.
Kerry Diamond:
What beverage do you start your morning with?
Jessie Sheehan:
Coffee with skim milk.
Kerry Diamond:
Skim milk?
Jessie Sheehan:
I know.
Kerry Diamond:
Really? Why?
Jessie Sheehan:
For some, I think probably because I actually really like the taste of coffee, so I don't want the creamy, milky heavy cream situation happening, and so the skim milk lightens it a bit, but doesn't overpower it.
Kerry Diamond:
What are you streaming right now?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh, such a good question. Interestingly enough, I'm actually, and I'm so proud of myself. I'm not watching TV. I'm reading “All Fours.” Have you read it yet?
Kerry Diamond:
Yes. Yeah. That's a must read.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, we need to talk offline.
Kerry Diamond:
Have you watched “Drops of God” on Apple TV+, everybody out there?
Jessie Sheehan:
What is “Drops of God?”
Kerry Diamond:
That's what I said. It came out last year. I don't know how I missed it. I'm not going to say anything except if you are in food, beverage, you should really watch it. It's so freaking good, and I think you can sign up for an Apple TV+ trial.
Jessie Sheehan:
I have Apple TV.
Kerry Diamond:
make sure you like it before you commit.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God. Thank you. I will say talking food. I did, of course binge-watch “The Bear” in-
Kerry Diamond:
Sure.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. Like one day. Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
But yes, “Drops of God,” if you watch it and love it, DM me. Or even if you hate it DM me because I want to know why, but it's fabulous. What's a treasured cookbook of yours?
Jessie Sheehan:
I would say probably my most used is called “Baking Illustrated,” it's Cook's Illustrated baking book that they put out many, many years ago at this point.
Kerry Diamond:
What is always in your fridge?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh gosh. Skim milk.
Kerry Diamond:
You're killing me.
Jessie Sheehan:
Also honey, kale, because I make my kale prune, hi California Prunes. I make my kale prune, blueberry smoothie with lion's mane. Thanks, Justine for the tip. Justine Snacks. She said to put lion's mane in your smoothies. I make that every day.
Kerry Diamond:
Is that a powder from the mushroom?
Jessie Sheehan:
It's actually like a pill that you would swallow, but I just throw it in the smoothie. You can get it in any form.
Kerry Diamond:
Is it a mushroom? Am I correct in that?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes. It's really good for your brain.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, I know. We love our prunes because they are a sponsor of-
Jessie Sheehan:
I know, but they're so delicious.
Kerry Diamond:
Yes, Prunes are really, we're going to sound like the ad. They really are good to snack on.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God, they're so delicious. I love them. They're good for your bones.
Kerry Diamond:
I know you love that smoothie.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah, yeah. So you will find kale. You'll find kale, and then the blueberries are in my freezer.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. You talk about that all the time. What was your favorite food as a kid?
Jessie Sheehan:
Pepperidge Farm Raspberry turnovers that you put in the toaster oven. Oh my gosh. Even saying it out loud right now, I want one with vanilla ice cream. You cannot eat them by themselves.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, I remember those. Do they still milk them?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah. We don't give enough love to Pepperidge Farm's Milano Mint Cookies.
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my gosh, honey. In “Salty, Cheesy,” I use puff pastry a lot because it's a great easy hack where you can get delicious snacky, savory things baked and Pepperidge Farm brand is actually vegan.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, really?
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah.
Kerry Diamond:
You know what they used to make that I can't find anymore, that thin white bread. I used to love that for a fancy little tea sandwich or I would make a little egg sandwich with it, but it's really hard to find.
Jessie Sheehan:
You know what I loved growing up too? Did you ever read “Harriet the Spy?”
Kerry Diamond:
Oh yeah, of course.
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay, so Harriet the spy eats tomato sandwiches, which now are trendy and all over Instagram, but back in the day, you just learned about them from “Harriet the Spy.” There was no social media. Harriet had tomato sandwiches after school, and I would always, my mother always bought Pepperidge Farm white bread. I would have them on Pepperidge Farm white bread, also, sorry haters Miracle Whip and tomatoes. I know. I know. Not my choice.
Kerry Diamond:
Least two favorite things. Miracle Whip and skim milk.
Jessie Sheehan:
Kerry and I love each other.
Kerry Diamond:
What's your favorite snack food, aside from prunes?
Jessie Sheehan:
I really love Cape Cod potato chips. I adore them. Nothing is better.
Kerry Diamond:
What is your favorite kitchen implement? I will get every dish in my kitchen dirty but you hate that.
Jessie Sheehan:
I hate that so much. Really, because I hate doing dishes. But anyway, my favorite is kind of obscure-ish, but not really for bakers. It is a tiny measuring tape because we often need to know, oh, this is supposed to be 12 by 14 inches. How am I going to know, oh, all the rounds are only supposed to be three inches each. How am I going to know? I'm not someone who can be like, oh, that's about three inches and get it right. I'm always horribly wrong. Or if you want, and this is not very me, but if you want every brownie that you cut to be exactly the same size, use your tiny baby measuring tape.
Kerry Diamond:
Huh, okay. That is very specific.
Jessie Sheehan:
I know it is kind of specific.
Kerry Diamond:
But interesting at the same time. Dream travel, destination?
Jessie Sheehan:
I have never been to Japan and have been talking about that with my husband and would love to go. The fashion, the food, the people, the landscape, everything about it is so appealing to me. I might say fashion number one, though. I'm obsessed with the designers.
Kerry Diamond:
Food for me, it's at the top of my list. So I can't wait to go there one day. Okay. Last question, and I don't know how you're going to answer this, but if you had to be trapped on a desert island with one food celebrity, who would it be and why?
Jessie Sheehan:
Okay. Can it not be a food celebrity?
Kerry Diamond:
No. It has to be a food celebrity. Who do you want to be trapped with?
Jessie Sheehan:
Oh my God. I want to be trapped on the desert island with the cast of “Arrested Development,” because I just want to laugh, Kerry. I'm like, if I'm on a desert island-
Kerry Diamond:
You can't find a funny food celebrity. They exist.
Jessie Sheehan:
Can you help me find one? Can I be with my friend Samantha Seneviratne?
Kerry Diamond:
Oh yeah, of course.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yeah. I love Sam so much. We have a really good time together. We would probably need some wine, but yes, I want to be with Sam.
Kerry Diamond:
Oh, that's a great answer. We love Samantha Seneviratne, beautiful cookbook, beautiful person. She was on our cover last year.
Jessie Sheehan:
Yes.
Kerry Diamond:
Yeah, she's got a show in the Magnolia Network. Well, Jessie, you really are the best. You make me laugh, and you've done such a beautiful job with your baking podcast, She's My Cherry Pie. I can't thank you enough. Thank you for being here today, and congrats on the book.
Jessie Sheehan:
Thank you, Kerry, and thank you for everything that you have shared with me over the years.
Kerry Diamond:
That's it for today's show. I would love for you to follow Radio Cherry Bombe, wherever you listen to podcasts, and leave a rating and a review. Let me know what you think about the show and who you would love to hear from on a future episode. Our theme song is by the band Tralala. Our producers are Catherine Baker and Elizabeth Vogt. Our associate producer is Jenna Sadhu, and our content and partnerships manager is Londyn Crenshaw. Thanks for listening, everybody. You are the Bombe.